Erin Klassen, editor in chief of With/out Pretend, joins Emily and Corinne to talk about collaboration, discovering new artistic voices, and the true meaning of self-care and vulnerability. She also tells us who her favorite Kid in the Hall is.

With/out Pretend is an independent Toronto-based publisher focused on producing, promoting and distributing works by women and non-binary writers and artists. We also host storytelling events and run a digital and print magazine called The Vault.

Erin Klassen is the founder of With/out Pretend, but she’s also an editor, collaborator, community-builder, and fiction writer. Her work has appeared in a number of print and online publications, including Studio Magazine, The CBC, Ephemera Magazine, and You Care Too Much. She enjoys Nina Simone, Italian food, and talking about the future.

Find Erin, With/Out Pretend, and the Vault On Social Media

Erin's website: https://erinklassen.com

Erin's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erin.klassen/

With/Out Pretend's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/with.outpretend/

Twitter: twitter.com/withoutpretend

The Vault's Instagram: https://instagram.com/vaultzine

Hey, Emily, here. I just wanted to let you know that

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It's an Instagram influencer.

You

foreign Welcome to the hybrid puff Scout podcast with me,

Emily Einolander and me. Corinne

kolasky, hello.

We are mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing, and today we are blessed.

We are blessed. We are blessed. We are blessed. That's true. To

interview Erin Klassen of without pretend. Let's just get

right down to it. Okay,

thank you. Erin Klassen from joining us today. Am I

pronouncing it right? That's right, yeah. Erin Klassen is the

founder of without pretend, but she's also an editor,

collaborator, community builder and fiction writer. Her work has

appeared in a number of print and online publications,

including Studio magazine, the CBC ephemera magazine, and you

care too much. She enjoys Nina Simone, Italian food and talking

about the future. So when you say talk about the future, does

that mean, like a person's future or the future of the

world?

I joke with my friends that I sort of live in the future a

little. I'm always, constantly bumping into things in my

apartment that have never been anywhere else, like coffee

tables or couches, because my mind is kind of like in five

seconds in the future, which is why I don't have my drive don't

have my driver's license. So I,

I like, I like planning ahead. I like thinking about the future,

and it's good to know yourself in that way too.

Okay? And so without pretend, is an independent, Toronto based

publisher focused on producing, promoting and distributing works

by women and non binary writers and artists. We also host

storytelling events and run a digital and print magazine

called the vault. And by we, I mean you.

So can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of

without pretend? Sure, yeah, we officially

got started in 2015

and I guess the reason for wanting to start self publishing

was because I was a pretty green writer myself, and I was already

over 30, but I kind of had a dark spot in my 20s where,

you know, I was, I was in the business world, I was in the

corporate world, I was working and I wasn't really doing a lot

of creative stuff. So when I decided I want to get to get

back into writing, I felt like it was a really hard channel.

There were the channels that were available to me were scary,

I guess, for lack of a better word. So without pretend really

came from this idea of

putting myself somewhere where I felt more comfortable and

starting something where other writers might feel more

comfortable to submit and to work with as well, if they were

just getting started. So when you say that the available

avenues were scary, do you mean submitting to magazines,

submitting to agents, that sort of thing, or that you would have

to do it as a solo pursuit, rather than with a group,

I guess both. But I think, you know, just in terms of the

channels that are available to writers, there's not even really

a lot of resources out there to figure out how to go about doing

that, you know, unless you're going to get your MFA in

writing, which I think a lot of people do, but that's expensive,

it's time consuming. It's not for everybody. So there, I think

a lot of people out there that are super talented or have the

ability to hone their craft over time, but they they need places

to get started. They need resources. So for me, it was

just like a big question mark, and yeah, the idea of being

rejected by somebody, I didn't even.

Know, who didn't know that I actually had a lot of potential?

That was that was not something I was excited about. No that

that totally makes sense. It's good to know that you you can

just take a different path, instead of having to put up with

that sort of impersonal reaction. So you started off

doing your own thing. How many people were involved with you

from the start, then, since you wanted it to be something that

was kind of a shared experience? Yeah, I think I thought there

was probably going to be comfort in numbers. So from the get go,

I kind of had the sense that if I was totally going alone,

probably fewer people would care. There'd be, like the 25

people in my immediate circle, and my mom, and, you know,

people like that who would like buy something, but, you know,

and that's me being really transparent, like I had this

idea that, okay, well, if there's a few of us putting out

a book, there's, there's a bigger circle there. And, you

know, it felt good to kind of get together with people and

talk about the kind of work we wanted to make together. So

without pretend, has kind of been this vision. Even though we

started very, very small, I sort of always saw what it could be.

And our first official title, other than a very small zine, we

put together, was portraits. And so for portraits, I did all the

writing, but it was based on 40 different interviews I had with

women that I knew about their unresolved feelings, so I asked

them to tell me a story about, kind of like, their biggest

heartbreak or their biggest missed opportunity, or, you

know, something from the romantic past that still felt

sticky. And I was able to kind of turn those very long

conversations into a series of flash fiction

based on reality, and I worked with five different visual

artists as well. So already there were, kind of like the 40

anonymous people that gave me their stories, but they kind of

were all part of that community, and there were the five visual

artists that worked with us. So yeah, that's, that's a very

short version or a long version, I guess, however you look at it,

where we got started, that's awesome. How did you find

everybody?

Yeah, it's a really good question. We started with who we

knew. But even for portraits, I kind of thought, Okay, well, I

have three or four people that are I know are going to say yes,

because they're kind of within my circle. But there was this

one woman that I really admired who lived in Montreal, and I

followed her on Instagram. And I just thought, what the heck

like? I'll just reach out, I'll say who I am, and I'll see if

she's down for working for almost nothing, because at that

time, you know, we didn't really have a budget, right?

And so she said, You know what? You're finding me in a really

interesting time. I just got out of relationship. This subject

matter really appeals to me. I like that you're trying to start

something. And sure, and so, you know, and we're not friends now,

you know, I know her, and I still follow her, and she

follows us, but she just sort of said yes, because she was

excited about the prospect of making something. Yeah,

absolutely. I love the idea of such a collaborative process.

Just, I feel very similarly, I was going to start this podcast,

you know, by myself interviewing people, and then Corinne came on

one episode, and I was like, will you do this with me?

Because it's so much more fun to have somebody else involved.

Also, like, I find, you know, personalities, other

personalities working with you can be very stabilizing, I guess

so. When you go off in your own direction and you kind of get in

your head, maybe somebody can bring you out of your head a

little bit. When I get too uptight, Corinne, like, brings

me back down to earth. That's usually I try. I do my best.

But yeah, so I can see how that would be a really smart way to

progress with especially with a creative project. You use a lot

of photographers and art artists, visual artists, and so

I read the

it's called, you're happy if you know it was that the it's just

happy if you know it. Happy if you know it. Okay. So I was

reading that one, and I noticed that the first

right after your introduction, there was a flow chart that

talked about the process of creating the cover. And I just I

loved that, because it talked about how everyone's visions

kind of came into that what, why? Why do you feel it's

important to be that transparent with your process of creation.

Well. So Jen spinner, who is the art director on that book, and

she worked with me on you care too much as well. So she's

extremely talented. And we, you know, these collections really

came together, as

I guess the result of, I want to say 1000 hours of talking and

thinking and blood, sweat and tears, right? And so I think

when you when you hold a book in your hand and it's 150 pages,

you know, maybe, if it's an author that you know really

well, and you see them give an interview where they say, Oh, I

was writing this book for seven years, you might have some

context. But most people.

Think about the work that actually, all the thoughts and

all of the ideas that go into making something that you can

hold and, you know, I guess, respond to. So Jen and I were

joking that you care too much, was such a labor of love. And

for this time, we were gonna, you know, tell people, educate

people on, you know, even if it was just something as simple as

like a sweet, two page flowchart to be like, No, this wasn't just

like something that happened. This was something we were

intentional about. And what was interesting about that, if I may

say, so is happy if you notice a book about intuition. And so I

think one of the things we were trying to kind of uncover for

people was that intuition is actually much more complicated

than I think, you know the word suggests, it doesn't just like

come from the sky and fall on you, and you know where to be in

life, and you know what to do.

And so similarly, we were saying, you know, yes, some

decisions are intuitive. They start somewhere, but there's a

lot of building that has to happen once you sort of have the

seed of an idea. And I think every creative project, I'm sure

everyone would agree, who's ever made anything, that sometimes

it's like a seed that you plant deep within yourself a decade

ago. And you know, even this podcast, I'm sure it wasn't

overnight that you just got the recording equipment and decided

to press play, right? No.

Well, I've noticed, and the feelings can be art is that,

would you say that's like the slogan of the publication? So

how do you choose which which idea or feeling to focus on for

each of your anthologies or other projects?

Yeah,

I guess you know now we're a team of 12, so I'm the founder,

and I call myself the editor in chief still, because I'm kind of

overseeing everything that's creative, but selfishly, these

are, these are topics that have meant something to me in my my

life. And so what I do is I, you know, I don't know, feel my

feelings. And, you know, years go by and I start thinking, I

wonder if this is something other people would resonate

with. You know, just to bring up portraits again, like that was

our first book, and actually, feelings can be art. Wasn't

originally a tagline. It was originally the first sentence of

the first edition that we put out of portraits.

So it was kind of my disclaimer to people. It was my defense of

what I was trying to do. I was trying to say, this can be

important. It can be good. It can be, you know, brushing the

literary sort of field, but it can also just be about the

things that we feel and the things that we think. And it's

good enough to make art about, essentially. So, yeah, that's

the same thing as I'm picking topics that I think would maybe

be seen as, I guess, for lack of a better term, a very gender

term, like feminine or women's issues. But I'm trying to push

people to think

that these can be important to talk about. Yeah, yeah. The

pieces are a lot more introspective than I think a lot

of literary magazines want to see from authors. That's, that's

kind of what I sensed. It's like, this is the sort of thing

that I would write for myself, which I think is, is a dream of

a lot of authors. It's like, I want to, you know, show you the

inside of my brain. But you know, there are gatekeepers who

are like, nobody wants to see the inside of your brain. What

are you talking about? So yeah, I think that that's a really

interesting way to do it, and I'm glad somebody is doing it,

because we got to get it out there.

So how do you how do you curate

a book. How do you piece it together? So when we got

started, it was very much me soliciting the people that I

wanted to work with. And I did that in a number of ways, like

we started a lot of times with our inner circles,

recommendations. A lot of times, you know, a lot of research went

into it literary magazine. So a lot of times what I would do,

and I have this thing, like, one the first Sunday of every month

I go and I buy like, $200 worth of, like, lit magazines from the

newsstand closest to me. And it's like, a really special,

like, treat to myself. But I'm also got my post its out, and

I'm like, I'm really trying to see who in there could be the

kind of person who maybe had that story that no one's asked

them for yet. And then I reach out to them, and most of the

time they're really jazzed to hear from somebody, because

they're like, Oh, thank you for reading being one of the 10

people

that it starts with a wish list and and so that's kind of how we

did it in the past. And then now we do have open submissions for

the vault. One of the reasons we started the vault, it's a

monthly and a quarterly magazine, so the monthly stories

are published digitally, quarterly, digitally and in

print, and we wanted to work with more.

People more often. So that was kind of our imprint, our first

imprint, our way of, kind of growing. And now we have open

submissions, and I'm really impressed, like some of the

people who come through there, I would have never heard of but,

but they're really great. So it's a mix now of we solicit

some people who are, you know, maybe a little more established

and and probably wouldn't submit to an open submission, and then

we find some new people through that. So how did you mentioned

talking about finances for indie publications, and how you

started out with no budget whatsoever, so especially with

so many moving parts and so many people involved, a lot of whom

you don't necessarily know. Like, how does that work? How do

you organize it, and where do you find the money? Mm, hmm.

This is a really, I think, important topic for independent

publishers to talk about.

I don't know about you. You guys are doing this podcast like you

must talk to a ton of people who are self publishing and and, you

know, creating zines with other people. There's everyone's doing

it now. It's so prevalent, right? And I'm really impressed

by that. But also, where are they getting this money from?

Because when we started, I had a full time job, a very good job.

I worked at Etsy, so I was the community manager for all of

Canada. We were a small office, but it was like, you know, it

was a big deal, senior manager job, and I personally funded

everything. So we've always paid writers and we've always paid

artists, and the reason for that is because I want to start by

having a professional relationship with people. It

just sort of makes it like the deadlines are easier to meet and

everyone's kind of on the same page. We have publishing

agreement. So, you know that was from the get go, but it was all

personally funded, and so when I quit my job to do this full

time, we were lucky enough to get a small grant from the

Ontario Arts Council. But other than that, it's like really a

hope and a and a prayer

pooling resources.

Yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe this is sad, maybe it isn't, but I

can see how people would feel much more. Authors would feel

more respected when they're they're given, given a fee for

their writing. And so, yeah, I can see that being the the

professional way to approach it as well. So so when you were

working your full, full time job, I find that it's really

hard to, like, sit down and read a whole bunch of short stories

and articles all at once, which it's a treat. It's fun. But

like, how do you find the time to do all of that and to read

all of those pieces? Do you, I mean, do you do a deep dive into

every single one of them, or do you have to do that sometimes,

or skim through others? Like, how's it work? Are you talking

about the people who submit to us? Or, well, you said that I'm

on one day of the month you go and buy $200 worth of literary

magazines. So let's start there.

I think as you get more

used to what you're looking for, what you what you like, you

know, and this is just true of any reader over time. You know,

I can pick up a book in a bookstore based on the cover.

Usually, you know, they say, Don't judge a book by its cover,

but you often do. Everyone does. There's no shame everyone does.

That's

why they have that saying, right? They're trying. Yeah,

exactly right. Why we spend so much time trying to make the

covers so people will buy our books. That's right, that's

right, right. So, you know, I really only have to read maybe a

couple paragraphs like that first page is really important,

because you can kind of get a sense, okay, is this? Is this

the tone that I'm going to respond to? Are they talking

about something I care about?

So, yeah, not to, not to judge a book by its cover or by its

first paragraph, but yeah, I don't deep dive into every

single piece based on kind of like, what I know I'm looking

for, and it also depends on the subject matter, right? So the

vault we are, we're trying to streamline our themes a bit

better, so that that readers like you can kind of know right

away. Is this something that I'm like interested

in getting into?

Okay, so the question is,

how do I know what I'm looking for, essentially, right? Yeah,

so I don't, I mean, when I'm when I'm reading these literary

magazines, I'm already, I generally have a sense of what

I'm looking for for a given publication. So depending on the

theme, I might look at writers that you know are specifically

talking about,

you know, the kinds of themes that we're going to be

interested in in, like upcoming issues.

Some of the examples in the past have been, you know, we started

with the vault. We started our collections with topics like on

healing. The second one was on pleasure. So those are like,

very different topics, right? So, on healing, you might be

looking at people who are you?

You know, transitioning through a particular point of life, or

talking about the loss of a loved one, or talking about

illness or or some kind of sickness that they've, you know,

are working through or coping with pleasure can be, you know,

pretty overt, right? So talking we, we looked at sex workers

that were also writers, are doing really interesting things

online, on their Instagram feeds. But we also just looked

at people were who were kind of willing to, kind of using

quotation marks. You can't see it, but,

you know, to go there, right? People who are really interested

in, like, going deep and describing the way that they

feel physically. So, you know, those are the kinds of things

I'm looking for when I'm when I'm soliciting new writers.

Would you say that people really pay attention to the guidelines

most of the time? Or do you see a lot of people just kind of

throwing things out there?

Well, I would have to say that we're not actually very good at

giving guidelines, because I tend to really like a loose

format. I think there are a lot of different ways an idea can be

expressed. So I don't like saying, Oh, it has to sound like

this, or it has to sound like this.

You know, we've had plays and poetry and

flash fiction and short fiction and personal essay and

everything in between, we had, like a speech turned into an

essay. So, yeah, I think I like to leave it as open as possible,

because you never know what you're going to get, and you can

always work with a writer to kind of shape it towards what

you feel will fit in the publication.

Great.

So what? What other what other projects are you working on?

Just you right now? Yeah, you know, it's funny. I do

enough of these interviews where I'm now used to people just

wanting to know about me, and I'm like, Do you think there's

any time for me?

But, but now, you know, it's funny. I actually because of an

interview I did last year, I started thinking about that. I

now have my own website, so you can find me@erinclasson.com

and the reason that I did that was because they were kind of

giving me a hard time. They're like, you know, you, you're

talking about intuition, you're talking about self care, but

like, what about you? Where are you? So I'm trying to, I'm

trying to do that on the side. So the short answer is, I am

actually working on a book right now.

I expect that to take all of this year before anybody here.

Is much more about that, but I'm originally it was going to be a

zine, and I had already kind of solicited the help of this

really talented art director that works on a magazine called

ephemera. So she and I are going to kind of do like a zine

version of that together, and we'll probably get that out

before the fall, but then I think I'm going to turn it into

a longer project. So, yeah,

cool. Very cool. I think current had some questions about self

care. I did actually, yeah, let me grab, let me grab my list.

Here really quick. Okay, so would you say, do you think the

self care movement is sort of beginning to be taken more

seriously at this point, rather than just dismissed as something

that, like women do when they've had a bad day?

Yeah, I have a lot of feelings about self care. Have you tell

us about them? Have you guys? Have you read? You care too

much? Or have you I started I read like the beginning of it?

Yeah, yeah. So this is, I assume my mother will never listen to

this podcast, thank goodness, but I won't email your mother.

Thank you. I actually have to sometimes take my parents are

both subscribers to my newsletter that I send out once

a month, and I have to sometimes take them off the MailChimp and

put them back on because I'm like, oh, like, X rated, like

too much. That's a good idea. My mom listens to our podcast. Hi

mom, hi rosemary.

So the reason I said that is because you care too much. It

was directly inspired by being raised by my mother, who is

very, in my opinion, bad at self care. I did see, see you talking

about that? Yes, I remember that very much. Yeah. So, you know, I

think

I had the kind of first hand experience of what it was like,

if you care about everything else and everybody else and you

put yourself first, which I think, you know, women

especially, have been taught for a very long time that that is,

like the right way to be right. It's like, we will be valuable

if we take care of others before we take care of ourselves. So,

yeah, do I think the self care movement is being taken more

seriously now. I think it depends on who you talk

to, and I think in general, it the question is more about how

we we start to raise our children, and how we start to

educate our communities of friends and the people around us

about boundaries and.

What we need, and about being okay to say what we need. So

yeah, I think that's a complicated question, which I

wrote a whole anthology about.

We will link it in the show notes, and I'll buy it. Thanks,

guys. Oh, I had more questions,

so I wanted also to talk about, which I'm sure is like the

scourge of the self care industry. But goop, do you think

that's helped or hurt the validity of self care? Yeah, I

have a, I'm not gonna lie, like I like Gwyneth, like, nothing

against you. But like, I have a problem with goop. I really do.

I have a problem. You love it.

Okay, I do. Sorry.

Remember that I sent you that. Like, look at this big hearty

meal, and it was like a little bit of seaweed and some

radicchio and like a small piece of fish, and it's like, you you

can splurge all you want.

It's

not just their problem. This is a problem about media, and it's

a problem about how we consume media and what we're looking

for, right? So the idea of, like these sites being popular,

that's our that's our fault. That's not their fault, right?

So it's about how we consume Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. So I think I'm just kind of sick of of the kind of

media that's telling us how we should be. You know, how we

should eat right and sleep right and do right and

shop right and and like what it means to take care of ourselves.

Because I think really the answers are, are meant to come

from inside each one of us. So if there are, you know, if

there, I'm sure there are great articles and great writers. I

know some of my friends actually write for group. And again, I

don't think it's all garbage. That's not what I'm saying. But

I think if you think a smoothie cleanse is going to save you,

that becomes problematic. It's hard to it's hard to market like

inward self healing. I mean, unless you're, you know, on

psychology today and even that. I mean, listen, I have, I have

problems with the way we consume, like psychology

articles as well. Dubious, yeah, there's no, there's not one size

fits all. Kind of answer, right? So that's what one of the things

we try to do on our publications, which I hope comes

across, and we continue to get better as we put out more work.

But it's about personal experience, because I think

there's a lot of things you can glean from somebody's personal

experience. When they say, this is how I did it, this is how I'm

feeling. This is

what worked for me. And you can decide, is that inspiring to you

to also find what works for you? Is it something that you want to

try yourself? You know, I think it leaves more ownership for the

reader.

I like that. I like that a lot. So I think we also had some

comments on on canadianness. Oh, well, my most important

question, I say,

No, can I just tell you? Okay, so just for the listeners, I

asked for the questions ahead of time, just because I didn't want

to sound like an idiot, and so when you asked me this next

question,

because my partner and I were just spending two bottles of

wine and all of two nights ago or whatever, before you set the

questions talking about this. And I some of my best friends

who I grew up with don't even have any idea what this is, so

I'm very impressed Korean. Get it? Okay, so my question is, who

is your favorite kid in the hall, and why I love this

podcast, new favorite

podcast. So there's only one right answer from my

perspective. Okay. Bruce McCullough, amen, you were gonna

say that exactly how I feel. Yeah, we all agree.

Now we're best friends.

And you said, and why? So I want to talk about it. Okay? So,

Bruce McCullough, I mean, listen, he's just so dryly

funny. He's always himself. He has no problem just showing up

and, like, it's the most obscure stuff, like, these are the

Dave's, I know, oh my god, that song every day.

How many Dave's Do you know? I mean, that's a good question.

That is a good question. I haven't counted one. Yeah, just

one. It's our neighbor. He's great. Oh

yeah, he did call the cops and we had our housewarming party

and we had bands play in the basement. He was fine. That's a

good neighbor. Yeah, it's a good neighbor. It's good Dave. I know

at least two Dave's, yeah, I don't know 30 Holland, though,

nor do I,

but I do like a good sensible shoe,

if you ever want to do like a side podcast just about kids in

the hall, I think that I would like to be asked on, oh, my god,

okay, edition of like publishers who enjoy kids. Ah.

Yeah, you are leading Corinne, yeah,

that can be a bonus episode to as a lead magnet. No problem, no

problem. I also think that out of all the five of them, Bruce

made the most attractive woman.

Yeah, I think I don't know. I think Scott Thompson, maybe,

yeah.

Sorry, maybe no, Foley. I think Foley is the prettiest girl. You

know what? You're right, yeah, I take that back, he is prettiest

you're right, yeah, yeah, it is.

My husband does a very good buddy Cole impression.

You know, he's touring. Hilariously, I just found out

about this when it was too late, but Scott Thompson was doing

that show, but in like, little tiny bars in Toronto, and almost

nobody was there. It was like 45 people. So I read a review after

he had done it, and I was like, I would have gone if that had

been better marketed, right? You know? And this is actually a

question about art in general. It's like, marketing is the

hardest part. It's like, nobody knows who you are. We were very

lucky with you care too much because we got a lot of press

around it because of, like, the whole self care hashtag, yeah,

you know thing. So I was kind of tricking people. I felt kind of

badly like I was just like, I'm selling you self care. And when

they get it, they're like, this is heavy and not at all

after reading about,

I need a vacation. After my vacation. Oh no,

but yeah, I wish it was easier to hear about cool things. And I

mean, we're so bombarded with, you know, things to do and

things to see and things to read on the internet. So it's

difficult to decide what to spend time on. But I think the

hardest part of any of this is just getting in front of the

right people who actually do really want to read your things.

But like, how do you find them? So Corinne, Corinne is a

marketing person in the book world. We're in nonfiction right

now. But like, did you find certain things worked better for

more, like fictional pursuits rather than nonfiction? Current

like, what are your thoughts? Wait, what exactly do you mean?

Do you think it's harder to to market more artistic work? Oh,

absolutely. Yeah. How Yeah? Do it absolutely? And I think,

like, back when I saw I was a publicist, like when I first

started out in publishing, and that is even, my heart goes out

to every fiction publicist, because it is just, you were

just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something

sticks. I mean, it's rough, yeah, it is, and it's, yeah,

it's really hard to get people to care about, you know, these

things that you care about passionately, obviously, because

you wrote a book about them. So it's really, it is really

difficult, much more difficult than nonfiction. So, and I think

it's too, it's like the credibility is so important too,

right? So you're building, like any company, like I worked at

fc, so like, when we a lot of what we did for a long time was

building trust with the Canadian market. So I, I do understand

that world really well. When, when it's something that's your

baby, that you like spent so much time on, sometimes you're

too close to it to be able to market it properly. I frame so

now I'm really lucky that we have a team of 12, because some

of the people on my team are so much better, like they started

out as fans, and then they sought me out, and they were

like, how can we help? And now they're a part of the team.

They they talk about it so perfectly, you know, I'm like,

Oh, great. Can you write now 100% of like the press releases,

because

I figured out what to actually say about this, so the normies

can understand

exactly

that's super, super valuable.

So is there anything else that you would like to say promote,

talk about, well, I think, as it relates to to what you're trying

to do here, you know, I think we've,

we've launched the Vault, which is a online magazine, but

because of the resources we have, it's not quite as slick as

you might expect from like, you know, another online magazine

where there's maybe a paywall, and you kind of just like, are

thrown into this beautiful world that it's everything very

accessible. So when you subscribe to the vault, it's

only five bucks a month,

and we do a ton of work to provide monthly stories. So it's

not we're not also there's not an overwhelming amount of

content. We like work with one writer and one artist per month,

and it's like, this beautiful either fiction or nonfiction. So

we alternate. So you're getting a little bit of everything.

You're getting people from all around the world, five bucks.

It's, you know, it's inexpensive, but, you know, you

have to kind of, it's like, there's two ways to look at it.

It's like, one, you're like, supporting the fact that this

content can continue to exist, and then it's also there for

you. I mean, raise your hands if you get the New Yorker and they

just, like, pile up in a corner in your living room. You know,

like, I, I love the New Yorker, but I read like, one fraction of

right?

Me, right? So anyway, this is a long winded way of saying, like,

do I want to promote something? Yes, I want to promote the fact

that I think we're doing really, really good work, like, and I'm

biased, but I'm also I know because I'm doing it and I'm

watching it happen. And so we do actually have a pretty good

following of subscribers, but we need more. And the great thing

about digital is you can be anywhere, and you can receive

these stories, and you can love them. So we actually deliver

them in PDF format. So it's also the most accessible way to do

it, because you don't have to have an e reader. You know, it's

just really easy. You can read it on your phone. We have a

mobile friendly layout. It's it's the best, and everyone

should do it all right, I love the whole one to one thing like

that. It's, it's just one per edition that's that that must

make them feel so special.

It's like, like the author and the artist, that that's really

respectful to them. We also do for free, you can subscribe to

our newsletter where we do author interviews every month so

you can actually get a sense of, like, Who's behind the story.

And we also offer them one off, right? So if you don't want to

subscribe and you just are like, Oh, I'm really interested in

this one particular story, you can do that for, I think it's

six bucks if you just want to do the one but yeah, that's Brad.

All right. Well, we will link to all of the social medias, and we

will link to the vaults and Erin, thank you so much for

joining us today. Yes, thank you. Yeah, it was great talking

to you, and I'm going to subscribe to the vault, so you

guys should too.

Thank you both for your time. It was really a lot of fun, and I

can't wait for our kids in the hall. I can't either. I'll get

cracking on that right now. I'll be, I'll be your sound producer.

Thank you.

Go crazy. All

right. Well, have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Thanks.

Aaron, bye. Bye, it's nice to it's nice to talk to you.

Corinne, it's nice to talk to you. Emily, we don't do this

enough, we don't, but we're going to, we are. We're gonna

start bringing back the bands. Yeah, the classics, yeah,

getting the band back together, yeah, I know, hopefully our

interviewees won't mind sharing the shit talking. I don't think

so. I don't know. We'll put it at the end. In any case, yeah,

it's fine, yeah, if you are a serious podcast listener who

does not like nonsense, please advance to your next podcast,

because I'm about to talk about what really grinds my gear.

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of trivializing how angry I am

about this. So we're here in Portland, Oregon, and one of our

publishers is a comics publisher called oni press, which I know

you're not like, super into comics I know nothing about, and

I'm not super into it either, but I mean, I know a Few one,

there's one, there's one by Pamela ribbon, sorry if I'm

pronouncing that wrong, and illustrated by cat Ferris who,

if you look behind you. JT, got me a little illustration, sorry.

Okay, that was for my Christmas present. She's great.

Yeah, they did that comic. Oh, cool. They published that one.

So okay, yeah, they're, they're supposedly very inclusive and

against toxic masculinity and like all those good things, yep.

But bad news, they just had a big merger with a lion Forge,

who I just recently learned about what they even are. And

you know, I don't want to blame them for it either, because they

suffered some casualties, massive, massive layoffs that

just apparently happened within two hours of the announcement

that the merger was happening. Oh, Christ, so like there was

restructuring in November for Lion Forge, and I think 12

people got laid off or more. Let me see, yeah, 12 people got laid

off in November from Lion Forge. And then this isn't confirmed,

but there may have been like 40 layoffs. I saw that, yeah, just

an absurd amount of people. Yeah, so one of the ironies of

oni press being a you know, inclusive press is they laid off

a lot. They laid off women of color. They laid off disabled

people,

people with big medical bills there. There's one couple.

Desiree Wilson and her boyfriend both worked there, and they were

both laid off. Her tweets have pretty much blowed up. Blown up

yeah and yeah. The two of them live together, work at the same

place, and both were laid off on the same day. So I mean, if that

tells you about how much your corporation cares about.

You, yeah. I don't know what else was true. The one takeaway,

I think, and all of these mergers and acquisitions, is the

company does not care about you. It doesn't all it doesn't you're

a number, and they're taking, they're taking advantage of the

fact that we love what we do. Yeah, right, yeah. And you know,

we don't love what we do every single day. Hell no, by any

means, by any stretch of the imagination. So I've been

posting,

and I think, yeah, you've been, you've been privy to posting of

people who work there, who have been putting up their venmos and

their PayPal accounts fucked up in the first place, but that's

another podcast, I guess. Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be.

I'm probably gonna see if we can have a couple of them on. But,

you know, after the wounds have, like, are not as fresh because,

you know, you don't want to, like, jump on people's right,

like, right? So, yeah, it's really,

it's everything that's wrong with our culture? Yeah. Well,

everything that's wrong with our culture happening in one day,

basically because that Georgia, like six odd heartbeat Bill Yes,

got passed yesterday too. And so I was just like,

I gotta make it rain on the internet. I gotta throw 20s at

the ACLU and at my Planned Parenthood. Yeah, exactly. And,

like, people who have been laid off by companies that don't give

a shit about them, it's just, it's a travesty, yeah? And, but

it's, you know, it's the sort of thing where the answer is,

business, is business, right? Yeah, you know, too bad. So sad

the company needs to be, you know, making that money, right?

Yes, uh huh. So I'm just gonna read the Publisher's Weekly

article. It looks like 40 may have been a lot.

I mean, I don't know whether it's not true or not, but what

Publishers Weekly said a lot less than that. Yes, right? So

they said under the merger ony press publisher James Lucas

Jones will serve as president and publisher of the combined

lion forge oni press entity oni founder Joe nosmack is stepping

down as president and will join the new entities board and serve

in an advisory role lion forge publicist Jeremy Atkins also

confirmed that there have been staff reductions. And layoffs as

a result of the merger, some lionforce staff, he said, were

offered quote, unquote, positions within the Oni

structure in Portland, and others were offered positions

within the polarity umbrella. So we got a structure and we got an

umbrella. Just pick your favorite thing to keep you out

of the rain in Portland, there's a lot of rain here, which

encompasses a number of companies. In addition, he said

some positions were eliminated outright or consolidated. So

yeah, merger has led to about nine layoffs combined from Lion

Forge and oni press, two of lion Forge, his best known staffers

are leaving. Atkins confirmed that and Andrea Colvin, VP

editor in chief of lion Forge, who developed and oversaw lion

Forge, his cub house roaring. Caracal young reader imprints

has left. And according to her Twitter account, Christina Steen

Stewart, Lion Forge, Associate Editor has been laid off.

And then it says lion forge editors Amanda meadows and

Jasmine Amari have been laid off. Oni editor Desiree Wilson,

like I said, and publicity director Melissa mazaros and

staffer Scott Sharkey, so many of the staff laid off are people

of color, queer or both, which has sparked a backlash on social

media against both publishers in light of the house's past

promotional claims to represent those communities. And I think

that's kind of the core of the issue. Is the hypocrisy, if

you're going to be throwing that around as like, look how great

we are. Look how woke we are, and then you do that to your

staff, right, right? Like, what exactly, and what tends to

happen is, as you know, like the editors, who are people of

color, queer, bring in that kind of right work. Yeah. So now that

these editors are gone, I don't know if you can confirm this,

because you've worked at more publishing houses than me. A lot

of times when editors quit, the projects fall apart. Oh,

absolutely, yeah, yeah. And the authors just kind of are

orphaned, which is really sad, or, and then they go elsewhere.

They go to different houses or, and, you know, there's not a lot

of places I see that yeah, do the kinds of projects that oni

had been doing for sure. Yeah, yeah. So that really fucks a lot

of authors over too. Yeah, for sure, yeah, I guess Yeah. It's

like creators, or, I think they call them creators. Oh, crazy. I

don't know. I know we're a comics person, then please let

us know the term we are still educating ourselves. We are

children.

I.

Ah,

we don't know, and this is the part that really gets me

continuing with this Publisher's Weekly article by Calvin Reid

Jones said the newly combined company is focused on creating a

major entertainment industry entity that can deliver a wide

range of popular content designed for diverse audiences.

Joan said, in an increasingly competitive marketplace where

the business of comics and graphic novels is rapidly

evolving, this merger is a once in a lifetime opportunity for

our two companies to pool our resources for one goal, to

create the finest comics and graphic novels for everyone.

So it's consolidating with polarity or under polarity the

umbrella? Was it the umbrella or the structure both? Yeah.

So lion Forge, animation, neon metropolis, music label and

comics, news and culture website, the beat. So they are

making a media conglomerate. Ah, yes, if I like, have noticed one

thing is, if you stand in front of a

I'm not gonna do the generalization I want to so you

can fill in the blank, okay, figure out what I'm gonna say.

If you stand in front of a certain person who is in a

position of power within the publishing industry and say,

movie, they will jump, jump at whatever terrible thing you tell

them to do. Absolutely true, yeah, and it usually involves a

lot of money and sacrificing people, yeah? People, right,

right. Full stop, yeah. So, you know, as soon as they get a

whiff of any sort of, like glamorous Hollywood magic, yeah,

they just want to cut of that. It's almost, it kind of makes me

sad, because it, it's like books have an inferiority complex.

Yeah, it's like these people who are in charge of the publishing

companies are like, Oh, well, the books aren't, you know,

that's not good enough for me, right? Look at all these

Hollywood execs. They make so much more money. There's so much

cooler guys. Oh, my God. Can I write in the backseat?

I'll sit on the hump in the backseat. Just let me hang out

with you.

That's a, yeah, that's a very adapt analogy. How they talked.

It is, it is, guys, please. I'm

cool too. I'm gonna make a movie out of my content.

I really have to respect the PR speak that they employ in their,

you know, explanation for why they're laying people off,

because they really spin this shit. I mean, which is what

you're supposed to do in this situation, obviously, because

they don't want to make the companies out to be the bad guy,

which they obviously are.

But I'm trying to look for some that are like, choice quotes, of

things that are just like, clearly bullshit, that are just

sort of like, I don't know, played off in a way that they're

supposed to be actual reasons. Well, I mean, it's a lot of talk

about our shared mission is to bring diverse content to a

global audience. Is that it that's the one? Yeah, the more

we spoke, the more the relationship evolved to the

point that we knew our combined experience and resources would

align to achieve that goal and advance our unique position in

the marketplace. So so it's like good luck getting that right

without the people who are the stakeholders. Right. Right?

Exactly, you know, and it's true. You can, you can talk

about pandering all you want, but the real pandering is

continuing to, like, carry that behind you, or like in front of

you, I guess, and without the staff and the people who

actually understand the experience to back it up. Yeah,

you know, it's, it's like a lot of empty talk. Well, you know,

they don't see color, right, right? Of course, race doesn't

exist. Yeah, yeah. Well, and just the fact that they included

the word marketplace in that statement too, is like, at the

end of the day, well, you know, it's still diversity, if what

you really mean is the marketplace of ideas. Oh, I see.

Oh, do you care to debate me in the marketplace of ideas?

Debate me, you coward.

That's okay.

Anyway, I'm mad about that. Check out our social media.

We're posting venmos and PayPals, and if you see one that

we haven't posted or want us to boost somebody who is been

affected by the layoffs, yeah, we'll do it. Yeah, we'll do it.

Just, yeah, just hybrid pub scout on Facebook and Twitter,

yeah. And we'll, we'll get you Yeah, well. And as someone who

has been laid off from a publisher myself a few years

ago, it is a really weird, like, obviously sad feeling. But it's

also just, like, very, and I, like an I.

Fascinating kind of experience, and it's just such a blow to

your ego and, like, your life, that I'm just, yeah, I mean,

like, these people are obviously incredibly talented, and I'm

sure, like, they'll find their way. They'll find something else

like this. So that pans out in the end, but it doesn't excuse

the way that this has kind of come about, and it doesn't

excuse the fact that, you know, these places, mission

statements, you know, we're kind of, I don't know, forged by No,

no pun intended, forged by lions. Yeah, by these. Yeah by,

you know, the people that the exactly the people that they let

go, you know? So it's just, I don't know. It's just supremely

fucked up, yeah, I can say so, like, your entire brand revolves

around this thing that you completely like, yeah, through

in the toilet, yeah, just to make more money at the end of

the day. That's what this is about. Yeah. And it's like, if

you're gonna make more money, maybe you can afford to pay the

people that you employ, uh huh, yeah. And the ones who are

clearly like contributing the most to your supposed mission

statement, well, and also the whole idea of redundancy, firing

an editor that has, like, a collection of projects they've

been working on, that's not something that you can just

replace. I mean, we were talking about how those projects get

lost in the shuffle because the editor's gone, right? That's not

the same. That's not redundant, yeah, absolutely, like,

palpably, not redundant. And I'm not excusing getting rid of

people for that reason. Yeah, I'm just saying it's not like

you can't even use it as an excuse in this situation

anyway. Yeah, yeah, so that sucks, yeah. Well, we'll, we'll

boost, yeah, if, and if you happen to be a job creator,

yeah, then

check out our social media and the people we're boosting, and

help a sibling out. Yeah, really

inclusive. That's right, all right. What grinds your gear?

Oh, boy, so glad you asked. Okay, so this is something I do

know a little bit about. Is this happened? Was it last week, I

think, and this was kind of a bombshell, but I feel like there

had been like murmurings about it for a while, so it wasn't a

huge bombshell, but Baker and Taylor has decided to close down

its retail wholesale business in order to better align itself

with the education focus of its parent company, Follet.

So obviously, every independent bookstore in existence was very

upset by this news. Why? What is what does that leave for the

independent bookstore distributors?

It's a company called Ingram.

Yeah, and they are one company that's it to rule them all

exactly they are. I don't know. I feel like with some time, they

might turn into the Amazon, yeah, you know, because that's

how I feel about it, yeah, that's kind of where we are.

It's like turning into a monopoly at this point well, and

they give us terrible discounts, yeah, and their customer service

is non existent. And if you are on Twitter, you have seen me not

necessarily spar with Ingram on Twitter, but complain, and then

they replied to me. And if I were to complain again, they

would probably reply to me again. Yeah, and the only reason

that I'm not being a huge pain in the ass is because, because

my Ingram rep emailed me last time I tweeted.

I She was like, I really hope that if you have a problem, you

feel like you can talk to me about it. And I was like,

I tried.

It's like, it's like, when you call and you just get a robot,

you can't get a personal

there's no personal touch.

So yeah, Mr. CEO said of Baker and Taylor, yeah, sorry, Mr.

Mr. Mr. Big britches. CEO said the decision was made to better

enable B and T to work with Follett to develop programs that

can make a big difference in the communities they serve.

And I mean, I guess, what is that big difference? Well, I

guess it's just more so they can serve the school libraries.

Well, libraries in general, but also school library, their

attention isn't divided Exactly, right? So it's like a singular

focus, which I buy a little bit, but not entirely. And of course,

again, the shittiest part of this is that 500 people are

going to lose their jobs. 500 which is a lot, so they're still

going to keep B and T is still going to be in the, like,

distribution business, so they're not getting rid of that,

but, yeah, they're getting rid of, I think it's two warehouses

that'll be closed no later than the end of the year.

So that really, obviously, really sucks, too. And then I

don't know how many people are losing their jobs from like

corporate as opposed to the warehouse. Warehouses. Yeah.

So I don't know what that I don't think there's been any

information anywhere, and then they probably won't give us any,

probably not. Yeah, that's like the private information. Yeah,

there's not going to be, like, a Washington Post article about

Baker and Taylor. No, I don't think there is, because nobody

cares about this shit, except us. Well, people in the book

trade, as it were,

let's see. So and I mean, like Ingram, I feel like has kind of

raced to reassure independent bookstores that, like we're

gonna take care of you. Yeah, talk about that. Oh, that came

out today. Oh, okay, yeah, I don't think that's in this

order. Oh, it's in this one. Sorry, different. We have lots

of articles here, folks. I do want to say while she is getting

the other article out, whenever I do call Ingram to order books

or inquire about book prices. The customer service reps are

delightful. That's nice, yeah, good. Okay, they do a great job.

They will if they get fired. Oh

yeah, send us your venmos, Jesus Christ.

Okay, so anyway, when Yeah, B and T decided there made this

announcement that they'd be exiting the book, retail,

wholesale business Ingram announced an array of

initiatives to support the Indies. I do kind of love the

statement from the I guess. Okay, he's the Chief Commercial

Officer. I don't even know what the fuck that means. CCO. I

don't know what that is, whatever. Some big Concho at

Ingram, he said, We know change is hard. We want to go right,

like, what the fuck okay. We want to help the Indies through

this challenge. And that was pretty much all he said. So they

it's true. That's a great commercial.

Anyway, but yeah, they so they, you know, talked up a bunch of

initiatives and stuff that they're going to try to put into

place to sort of take care of the giant hole that B and T is

leaving, you know, in their absence. So I don't, do you want

me to go through all of these? Just tell just pick your

favorite. Pick my favorites. All right, let's see.

Okay, moving low volume tier stores to standard terms

effective June 1 to proactively help stores qualify for improved

terms. I wish they would kind of explain like, what they consider

a low volume tier store, and what the standard terms of their

contract are, you know, a little bit better, because I have no

idea. Well, do you think that?

Oh, yeah, like, what is that? I don't know. Oh, what I was gonna

say is, do you think that they sent, like, more detailed things

to the actual So, yeah, did we get anything? I don't think so I

haven't seen anything, yeah, so I don't, I have no idea. Oh,

fast tracking new accounts, if they were only working with B

and T, which I get, I mean, I guess, I guess that's nice. But

like, it's not like these stores have another option. Like, what

the fuck else are they gonna do? You know? It's like, yeah, I

don't know. Yeah, they literally have no other option. I guess

they can directly source from the publisher, yeah, but then

the publisher has to get books, yeah, too, right? I mean, and

they can, if they have their own warehouse, yeah, sure. They can

use their own terms, right, right, but a lot of publishers

don't have their own warehouse. That's a lot of publishers do,

using gram as their warehousing, yeah, yeah. So that sucks for

them. Let's see what else. I don't know something about, an

app to help booksellers get faster information about stock.

So, yeah, like, I, you know, really want to I don't know

trumpet technology, download an app, store your personal phone.

Yeah, your job. I don't know whatever anyway, but yeah, I

would say those are the ones that kind of, like, jump out at

me quickly. We built an app. Yeah, we built we built an app

to make this difficult time easier for you. Like, Hey Ray,

there's an app

for my job.

So, I mean, I feel like I noticed an outpouring of sadness

from people involved in any aspect of sort of indie books,

the indie bookstore kind of family, understandably. So that

was just really shitty. And as someone who shops pretty much

exclusively at Indie bookstores, I like I really feel for them.

Yeah, it sucks. We should probably talk to some indie

bookstore people about, should they think? Yeah, if you are an

indie bookstore person, please email us. We would love to talk

to you. I mean, about everything, but especially about

how this B and T stuff is going to affect your life at work,

exactly. Yeah.

Anyway, you got anything else do you want to talk about, like,

something good after all this, yeah,

Sunshine current. Okay, let's see what's what's happening. Now

that I said that, of course, I can't think about, think of

anything to talk about, what's happy. Let's see. Well, it's

almost the weekend, so that's good, although I realized that

when this airs, it's gonna be Wednesday. You.

Um,

I'm going on vacations. Hell yeah. Tell them where you're

going. We're going on a road trip. Yeah. What are you gonna

see on your road trip? We're gonna go when you look at five

year old, I'm sorry,

we're gonna go to drive out across the Northwest of Idaho

and Montana, and arrive in Yellowstone National Park, and

we bought tickets to Yellowstone bear world, and we're gonna hold

baby bears That's

adorable. Yeah, we're gonna do that, go on some hikes, but the

the high point is the bears, yeah, oh, the other high point.

And I figured this, we're spending one night in Bozeman,

Montana. Yep, they have a whole section of their museum. It's

the Muse museum of the Rockies is, I is what it's called, okay?

Museum of the Rockies.

Whole wing of the museum is dinosaur bones. Oh, whoa. They

have a T Rex. Oh, my God, I want to see that T Rex. Real hard.

Wow. So I was like, what time? Because I'm trying to plan out

everything we do, of course, because it's a road trip, and

I'm like, we need to be able to fit these things in and not just

be driving the whole time, right? So I was like, museum

opens at 8am we will be at the museum at 8am

and then so we can make it to Old Faithful by 3pm fun to

travel with me. Yes, it sounds that way. I've never really been

like that. But on the other hand, when I don't, uh huh, I

usually end up just kind of like lying around somewhere and

drinking beer, right? So, yeah, I could do that at home. That's

true. I really need to come up with some better plan. Yeah,

well, it sounds like you're on your way. Thank you. Yeah. Oh,

well. I mean, you have some exciting things going on at your

home? Oh, yes, at my home. We're having so my boyfriend is very

involved in the local music community, so we're having a

local band shoot a video in our basement tomorrow night. So it

should be fine. The only thing I'm worried about being a Virgo

and a clean person is that it's going to be like, torn apart and

destroy your house, yeah? Like,

and there's gonna be like, shit all over the basement, and like,

empty beer cans and God only knows what else. And some people

who are like, we live here now, yeah,

the worst part of it, but anyway, but I really like the

band, so I think like that part will be fun. It's more just like

the worrying about, like, Are these people gonna fuck my house

up? Aren't they kind of like Americana, they are. So yeah,

it's not really, but most of the people in the band have played

in punk bands, so they still attract that element, if you

will, the punk element.

So anyway, that's my first sci fi movie,

but anyway, yeah, it'll be, I'm sure it'll be fun. I always,

like, worry about stuff going wrong, and I'm like, who's gonna

break my vase or whatever? And then it's fine, and it's really

fun. And I just need to, like, stop being such a worrywart. But

I, as I said, Virgos, this is what we do, is someone bringing

pizza. I don't know, I don't think, just tell someone to

bring pizza. I should tell someone I feel better. I can

tell you that, uh, PBR is, like, sponsoring the video or

something. So there's good, yes, there's gonna be, like, free

PBR, which I do not drink because that's disgusting. Just

have one. I'm not you gotta have one not drinking. But anyway,

I'll buy my own beer for myself. You should see her when someone

puts a Rainier cannon

too good for an ear. I really glasses. I paid my dues with the

beer shit. You know what kind of piss I drank in my 20s, at frat

parties. Give me a break. I

put my time in So Patty light. No, I don't think ever I drank.

Oh, maybe what? No, it's like Rainier ice or something, which

was, like, probably, like, even a low rent, like, rainier, yeah,

so I don't know, but anyway, or Keystone, that's what it was.

Oh, yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about. You're giving me

PTSD, right? So I sorry. I didn't mean to trivial. No, no,

you are welcome to them. So anyway, but no, I think it'll,

it'll be fun. I'm sure it'll be like, a good time so, and it's

supposed to be super hot here tomorrow also, so it'll be a

bunch of sweaty drunk people in my basement. That's gonna smell

amazing. Yeah, I can't wait. Oh, God. Anyway, so I go learn how

to Swedish dance. Maybe. No, I am. That's why I'm coming to

your party or to your video. I promised I'd go Swedish dance.

What does that entail? Like? Was that look like? Oh, it's like

our friend is oh Amy, who does our theme song. Her band is

playing in Northeast Portland or North Portland, I'm not sure

which. Yeah, and

before they play, because she plays the nickel heart.

Ba which Swedish folk instrument, and that's cool in

our theme song, yeah. And so beforehand, there's going to be

a woman who gives a little clinic on Swedish folk dancing,

yeah. So that's cool, yeah. Is it like, have you seen it

before? Is it like, Irish? It's kind of Greek. I don't know. I

have no idea. I know. JT did it a couple times, okay, but I've

never done it, yeah, but yeah, it's like lots of kind of

circles, okay, like, Okay, I don't know. Do, Si, do maybe,

I don't know. I'll report back. All right, yeah, tell me. Tell

me all about it anyway.

Thanks for listening to our banter. Thanks for listening to

our interview with Erin. Yes, she is. She's

an inspiration. Absolutely. I love all these people doing

indie things. At some point we're all going to be able to

pay each other and treat each other well. Yeah, that's, that's

my greatest hope is we're all going to be able to just, like,

tell all these big companies to, like, go fuck themselves, yeah,

yeah, and do our own thing. That's right. And so,

yeah, yeah. And you can tell Amazon to go fuck itself if you

cancel your Prime subscription, just an FYI there, yeah, so, I

mean, still not using Audible, yeah? Well, that's good. That's

the step in the return. Yeah, I know, yeah. Anyway, I only meet

eat meat a couple times a week. That's great. You know, you

don't have to, even if you like, you don't have to be an all or

nothing person. Now you totally like, if you don't think you can

handle it, just don't do it sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

exactly. You'll work your way towards, you know, there will be

people who are like, Oh, good, that's not enough.

But it's like,

yeah, ultimately, we're all just tiny specks in space. Yeah,

infinitesimal,

18. I

anyway, find us on hybrid pub scout on Twitter. Hybrid pub

scout on Facebook.

You wanna, oh sure, hybridpubscout.com you can

subscribe to our newsletter there, please, which is lovingly

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but, yeah, I think that's pretty much it, right? Oh, please go

give us a five star rating on iTunes. Like, really, to be

really nice. It would be we would make our make our day,

yeah, slash week, slash month, and it would help other people

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can all have a lot of fun together, and it'll be great,

yeah, ooh, well, we do come up in a iTunes search now. Oh,

good, okay, when I put in hybrid pub, oh sweet. Okay, we're on

our way.

Hold on,

yeah, we still just have eight ratings, so let's, let's make it

an even 10. Yeah, next time, how about that? All we need are two

people. Yes, you don't even, we'd love for you to leave a

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like, hit the little stars with your thumb. You can that's all

it takes. All we need is two of you to do it, yeah, and then

we'll make our very high goal, yes, 10 people. You don't even

really need to comment on the content of the podcast. You can

just say Corinne is hilarious, or Emily is delightful, or both,

or both, or neither, yeah, or well, just the stars. Yeah, just

stars. That's all you need. Yeah, either way, we're trying

to make it easy for you.

Anyway, thank you for listening, and thanks for giving a rip

about books. You

you.