Kevin Dieny: 00:00:00

Hello, and welcome to the Close the Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:02

I'm your host, Kevin Dieny.

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:03

And today we're gonna be talking about, what should a small business

Kevin Dieny: 00:00:07

be looking for in an agency?

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What kind of a relationship should they be looking for?

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What kind of services should they be looking for?

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What should they be expecting when they start thinking, hmm...

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should we go outside?

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Should we bring someone in?

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Should we get extra help in, you know, in this project we wanna do should.

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Build a partnership so that we're more entwined.

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Do I just need this one thing made really quick?

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Uh, there's a lot of different types of agencies.

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There's a lot of different types of relationships.

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A business may have with a third party, um, to help me

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dive into this is David Bear.

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David is a veteran of the direct response marketing.

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Uh, time of it's still going now, but he's a veteran of it.

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He's really done a lot of it.

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He started his career selling classical music subscriptions.

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Very interesting.

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And that was on the Dawn of email marketing as well, since then his copy

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and his strategic guidance have earned his employers and clients millions in sales.

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So he he's someone who's been in the agency world.

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I, I think someone who has.

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Also been there and through ups and downs of the agency, uh, times.

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So I thought he'd be a great resource to talk about this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:13

Uh, so welcome, David.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:14

Thanks for coming on.

David Baer: 00:01:15

Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for having me.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:17

So if we could, I, I always like to start as simple as I possibly can.

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:21

When we're talking about an agency, I guess in your eyes, David,

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:24

like what, what is an agency?

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:26

What are we talking about in the today when we're, when we're

Kevin Dieny: 00:01:28

like using the word, 'agency?'

David Baer: 00:01:30

Yeah, I think it's a catchall term and really, you know,

David Baer: 00:01:34

it can be anything from a one person business to a business where there's a.

David Baer: 00:01:40

What's known as a full stack agency, which is an organization that really

David Baer: 00:01:45

can do every implementation of tactical activity in marketing, whether it's

David Baer: 00:01:51

running ads or doing your copywriting or designing a website or, or, you

David Baer: 00:01:55

know, doing print, uh, media, or what's known as outdoor media, which is,

David Baer: 00:02:00

you know, like billboards and things.

David Baer: 00:02:01

But there are, there are businesses that.

David Baer: 00:02:04

All of that.

David Baer: 00:02:05

And then there's everything in between.

David Baer: 00:02:06

Uh, something in between might be a small shop where it's a bunch of contractors

David Baer: 00:02:12

when they're brought in as needed basis.

David Baer: 00:02:15

There's also, and we'll, we'll dive into the pros and cons of this.

David Baer: 00:02:19

A lot of overseas outsourcing.

David Baer: 00:02:21

That's happening these days, particularly in the two years, uh, leading up to now,

David Baer: 00:02:26

since COVID where the world has gotten a lot smaller, because there's so much

David Baer: 00:02:31

more accessibility to people across the globe who have, you know, amazing

David Baer: 00:02:35

skills and talents at much lower prices.

David Baer: 00:02:37

And, uh, we, we we'll, we'll talk about that.

David Baer: 00:02:39

I'm I'm sure as we move forward.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:41

I've always looked at an agency as we're talking about

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:44

it, like support for the business in the marketing arm, but there's a

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lot of businesses that partner with other businesses that have more of

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an operational arm or supply chain.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:54

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:54

There's lots of interesting ways ES work with other businesses, but what's.

Kevin Dieny: 00:02:59

What all of those entities that work with another entity have in common

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to me is the business' success.

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Whereas any partner or entity that works with that business may not have that

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business as the number one priority, but that, that's why they're separate.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:12

That's why they're working, they're offering services or

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:14

something to help that business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:17

And, and in that mind, the, in that line, right, the closer aligned that agency or,

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:24

or business is with the primary company.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:27

In achieving the primary business' goals, the better off, I think both

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will be because they're gonna be helping support, you know, what

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they both are trying to achieve.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:35

But primarily when you're an owner, when you're a business, small business,

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:38

let's say thinking about, you know, I I'd like to have a, a partner or

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:43

a business help me support me, you know, get help with my marketing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:03:47

An agency is sort of where my, my head goes with that.

David Baer: 00:03:50

Well, I, I think first of all, the, the terminology agency is,

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is really about a service provider.

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And sometimes a, an external expert.

David Baer: 00:04:01

And again, this is something I, I think we're gonna be digging a lot deeper

David Baer: 00:04:04

into, um, who, who has a, a, a skill set to be able to deliver something

David Baer: 00:04:09

for a client that the client may not be able to, or may not be interested

David Baer: 00:04:15

in doing internally in their business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:17

Yeah, so you just touched on it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:19

Maybe you can spend a little bit more, why would a business want to hire an agency?

Kevin Dieny: 00:04:24

A marketing agency?

David Baer: 00:04:25

There's a long list of an, uh, uh, of answers to that question

David Baer: 00:04:28

and it, it could be anything from, you know, they don't know a darn

David Baer: 00:04:33

thing about marketing and needs.

David Baer: 00:04:35

Somebody who does.

David Baer: 00:04:37

Two, they don't have the bandwidth internally in their business,

David Baer: 00:04:42

whether they don't have, uh, the expertise, they don't have the time.

David Baer: 00:04:45

Uh, they have not dedicated a full-time person to do marketing.

David Baer: 00:04:49

And they've, they've sort of reached the cap of what that the person

David Baer: 00:04:53

who's, you know, 10% of their day or 10% of their week is, is, uh,

David Baer: 00:04:58

allocated to marketing activities.

David Baer: 00:05:00

And this is, this is, um, probably among the most common, particularly in the.

David Baer: 00:05:05

Business world.

David Baer: 00:05:06

They may realize that marketing, which a lot of small businesses define as

David Baer: 00:05:11

either lead generation or advertising.

David Baer: 00:05:14

And there's a lot more to marketing than that.

David Baer: 00:05:16

Um, they may say, oh, it's about time that we actually spend money on ads.

David Baer: 00:05:20

We're not getting enough business right now.

David Baer: 00:05:22

And so they'll see that there's something happening in the environment around them,

David Baer: 00:05:27

that a, a point at which they need to make a decision to make this investment,

David Baer: 00:05:32

but they don't know what to do.

David Baer: 00:05:33

So they turn to, uh, a professional to, to help guide them through it.

David Baer: 00:05:37

And.

David Baer: 00:05:38

And extension of that is they have heard that, you know, tactic X.

David Baer: 00:05:47

These days it's TikTok.

David Baer: 00:05:49

That's the, that's the hot thing.

David Baer: 00:05:50

As, as we happen to be recording this advertising on TikTok is the

David Baer: 00:05:55

way to build your business, right?

David Baer: 00:05:57

And so they reach out to somebody who is an expert in whatever that thing is that

David Baer: 00:06:02

that's been recommended to them often by somebody who's not fully informed about

David Baer: 00:06:07

all of their needs within their business.

David Baer: 00:06:09

And so it may or may not be the right thing to do.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:11

Now, something that we've talked about.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:13

You know, before the, before we were sitting here today, recording, this was

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:17

the, uh, something you'd mentioned about like the commoditization of agency,

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:21

tactics of agencies, sort of having a specialized leg gen focus and that kind of

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:28

getting out of hand in the terms of like lots of bus, lots of agencies have that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:32

So if you could talk a little bit about that, cuz when a business is

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:36

thinking about an agency, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:38

Better to just like, have a relationship where it's fairly disconnected, let

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:41

the agency just run its specialized tactic of Legion and not connect them

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:46

to the inner workings of the business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:47

I mean, in your experience seems like it, this is something you could absolutely

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:50

be able to share your insights on.

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:53

And it's something we had talked about before, which I

Kevin Dieny: 00:06:54

thought was really interesting.

David Baer: 00:06:55

Yeah.

David Baer: 00:06:56

I, I have been in both roles of, um, running an agency

David Baer: 00:07:00

as well as hiring agencies.

David Baer: 00:07:02

And, uh, now these days I actually work to improve agencies, uh, who are my clients.

David Baer: 00:07:08

So one of the big challenges is that a lot of agencies have

David Baer: 00:07:15

historically been positioned around.

David Baer: 00:07:19

A specific skill set.

David Baer: 00:07:20

And so you, you said lead generation, for example, and frankly that's how

David Baer: 00:07:26

both the marketing and advertising industry has worked in terms of

David Baer: 00:07:31

let's focus on the, the thing we specialize in, the thing we deliver.

David Baer: 00:07:36

And it's absolutely how businesses have been trained to think about purchasing

David Baer: 00:07:42

marketing or advertising services.

David Baer: 00:07:44

Right.

David Baer: 00:07:44

So let me let.

David Baer: 00:07:45

Explain what I, what I mean by this?

David Baer: 00:07:47

And then we'll get back to answering your question.

David Baer: 00:07:50

Typically, a business does not have the way that they have a, uh, a financial

David Baer: 00:07:57

guide through a, you know, an accountant or a legal guide through an attorney.

David Baer: 00:08:02

Somebody who guides them through the ins and outs of marketing.

David Baer: 00:08:06

Instead, what they do is they engage directly with a sales professional.

David Baer: 00:08:10

Who's representing a specific solution.

David Baer: 00:08:13

That might be the person who's selling advertising time or space

David Baer: 00:08:17

for radio or newspaper, or it might be the local rep for, you know,

David Baer: 00:08:23

Yelp or somebody who specializes in running ads on a certain platform,

David Baer: 00:08:29

whether that's online or offline, but what they're not engaging with is.

David Baer: 00:08:35

Typically the bigger picture of, well, what what's right for my business,

David Baer: 00:08:38

what strategically should I be doing?

David Baer: 00:08:40

And so, because most agencies are positioned around the tactics, a Facebook

David Baer: 00:08:46

ads agency, a a search engine optimization agency, a website design agency.

David Baer: 00:08:53

And because as I said earlier, we are now so much more accessible across the globe.

David Baer: 00:09:01

Well in the marketing world, we now have competitors in other countries

David Baer: 00:09:07

that have different, um, financial standards of living where somebody

David Baer: 00:09:12

can charge a heck of a lot less and be qualified to do the work.

David Baer: 00:09:18

At a much lower price.

David Baer: 00:09:19

Now, whether it's here domestically in north America or in Pakistan or India

David Baer: 00:09:25

or Philippines, or any Nigeria or any other country where, um, people have

David Baer: 00:09:30

the ability to live on a lot less money, there's also a wide range of quality

David Baer: 00:09:35

that you get for whatever you pay.

David Baer: 00:09:37

So that's a completely different point.

David Baer: 00:09:39

And I, I wanna make sure that's.

David Baer: 00:09:41

So th this is a big challenge for both business or owners, as well as

David Baer: 00:09:47

those who are in the agency world.

David Baer: 00:09:49

How, how do you differentiate yourself outside of price, obviously, uh, to be

David Baer: 00:09:54

able to figure out, you know, I'm, I'm investing in a commodity here, is that

David Baer: 00:09:58

really the right, um, service provider?

David Baer: 00:10:01

Is that the right solution for my business is it's, it's a much more

David Baer: 00:10:04

complicated subject than most businesses.

David Baer: 00:10:08

Um, really take the time to think about.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:10

It makes me think that there's like a lot of things in a

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:13

business that they may think like, Hmm, like this agency's helping me with this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:17

I wonder if they could help me with that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:19

There's there's areas where an agency probably could be a little more invested

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:24

in the strategic side of a business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:25

If allowed.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:26

I know that from being in an agency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:29

That was scary for the businesses that we worked with and from being in a business,

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:33

like feeling like, I don't know if we're gonna be able to get these, get the agency

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:37

up to speed or, or on the same page as us.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:39

Like there's, there's that I don't know that, that worry

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:43

and that fear on both sides.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:44

And so like, what you're talking about is being able to overcome that and have

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:48

the agency be a little more entwined in the strategic operations of the business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:52

So that truly it is its goals and how it's helping the business is optimized.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:57

And does.

Kevin Dieny: 00:10:58

A little bit wider of a connection in the business and the business allows them and

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:03

gives them the tools or the information, the knowledge equity they have, which

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:07

kind of only exists in that business and enables to allow the agency or their,

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:12

you know, the team on the other side, to be able to do something with that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:11:16

Right.

David Baer: 00:11:18

Yeah, you, you said something there that I wanna, I wanna, um, come back

David Baer: 00:11:22

to, which is a business will think, huh?

David Baer: 00:11:25

I have this agency and I want this other thing done.

David Baer: 00:11:27

I wonder if they can do it too.

David Baer: 00:11:29

And I'll tell you what that, that experience was like from

David Baer: 00:11:31

an agency owner's perspective.

David Baer: 00:11:33

So.

David Baer: 00:11:34

I used to run an agency.

David Baer: 00:11:36

I started back in 2010 and our focus was Facebook ads, right back in 2010.

David Baer: 00:11:41

This was a fairly new thing.

David Baer: 00:11:43

And I had a good number of clients who would hire me because again, that

David Baer: 00:11:47

was the hot new thing at that time.

David Baer: 00:11:49

The way TikTok is, uh, now I had people who came to hire me to run Facebook ads,

David Baer: 00:11:55

or just to figure out this whole Facebook.

David Baer: 00:11:57

And then I would, you know, have a subsequent meeting with them a few

David Baer: 00:12:01

months down the road, or, you know, talk about this, the, the success of,

David Baer: 00:12:05

or, or the, the, the challenges around the campaign that we were running.

David Baer: 00:12:08

And, uh, inevitably.

David Baer: 00:12:10

They would tell me about some other thing that they were doing in

David Baer: 00:12:13

marketing typically, because I was trying to, um, get to what was behind

David Baer: 00:12:19

the work that I was doing with them.

David Baer: 00:12:20

Like what, what were the next steps?

David Baer: 00:12:21

And what's the follow up and all that, those sorts of things.

David Baer: 00:12:25

And they would tell me something along the lines of, oh, you'd be so proud of me.

David Baer: 00:12:30

I just hired somebody too.

David Baer: 00:12:32

And then they would.

David Baer: 00:12:33

Basically, this is what I heard, do.

David Baer: 00:12:36

Something that I could have hired you to do, but you didn't tell me you did it.

David Baer: 00:12:39

And I didn't ask.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:41

Hah hah hah...

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:43

oh...

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:43

man.

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:44

So how did that feel?

Kevin Dieny: 00:12:45

How did that go?

David Baer: 00:12:46

Well, it, it, it, it felt terrible because I realized, well,

David Baer: 00:12:50

I've made a mistake here because I haven't been clear to my client, the

David Baer: 00:12:54

full range of things that I can do for.

David Baer: 00:12:57

And I've really set up the relationship around something that undermined.

David Baer: 00:13:05

What they think our relationship is about and what they think

David Baer: 00:13:08

my area of expertise is.

David Baer: 00:13:10

And so that was, that was actually a big shift in the way that

David Baer: 00:13:13

I, uh, structured my business.

David Baer: 00:13:15

Once I saw that as a pattern that kept being repeated, I was like, I

David Baer: 00:13:19

gotta do something about this, cuz clearly I'm doing something wrong.

David Baer: 00:13:23

Uh, that, that these guys are going somewhere else.

David Baer: 00:13:25

And then proudly telling me I hired somebody else to do something.

David Baer: 00:13:29

Yeah,

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:29

wow, that's really, and see it happening over again.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:33

Or a couple times it's like, okay, I'm getting the signal.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:36

So you mentioned something, uh, about relationships there too.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:41

And to me, the relationship that it's, let's say simplest, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:45

Is that is something you've you've you've referred to before

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:48

as a vendor type relationship.

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:50

Like the most basic I could possibly see is like, You hand me like things

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:55

that are completed or you hand me the leads or, you know, it's very vendor

Kevin Dieny: 00:13:59

based, like put money in, something comes out and, and that's really the limited

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:03

amount of interaction that's there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:05

Just like the bare minimum.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:06

Now along, let's say the spectrum, you increase the relationship quality.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:11

And at the far end, I would say it's something kind of like

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:13

what's been described to me is like, they almost have like a.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:16

At like seat at the table, like they have a seat in the decision table.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:20

Like they may go, you know, before we do anything, let's talk to my partner.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:25

Let's talk like that's the quality of relationship at one end of the spectrum.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:29

That's very ingrained, very much established, like there's trust there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:34

There's also like a, a good.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:37

A good, healthy sense of like, you know what, let's just make sure that this

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:40

is gonna work best for the business and not like, you know, leave parts of

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:43

ourselves out, which like if an agency has that sort of a relationship, any

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:47

partnership has that sort of relationship.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:48

That's amazing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:50

So if so between vendor.

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:53

If you want to describe again and then all the way to like the far

Kevin Dieny: 00:14:56

side, you see it, how does that go?

David Baer: 00:14:58

Okay, well, this is a loaded, uh, topic.

David Baer: 00:15:02

It's a, it's a, it's a topic which I'm incredibly passionate about and in fact,

David Baer: 00:15:06

have built an entire business around now supporting and, and, and, uh, oh, good.

David Baer: 00:15:10

Yeah, working with agencies.

David Baer: 00:15:11

So let, let me, let me, um, tell you about, um, The typical agency.

David Baer: 00:15:18

And again, there's plenty of exceptions to this, but the typical

David Baer: 00:15:21

agency, uh, basically says, yeah, I can help you with Facebook ads.

David Baer: 00:15:26

Yeah.

David Baer: 00:15:26

I can help you with SEO.

David Baer: 00:15:29

So tell me, what would you like to do?

David Baer: 00:15:31

And that's where it ends, right?

David Baer: 00:15:32

They, they are relying still on the business to guide the strategy

David Baer: 00:15:39

around that particular tactic.

David Baer: 00:15:41

OK.

David Baer: 00:15:42

So.

David Baer: 00:15:43

For a business that is really just looking to outsource their team and hire somebody

David Baer: 00:15:49

who is a contractor to fulfill some very specific task that they've figured out

David Baer: 00:15:56

internally exactly what they want to do.

David Baer: 00:15:58

This approach works.

David Baer: 00:16:00

But for most businesses, they haven't actually figured that stuff out.

David Baer: 00:16:03

They don't know what, you know, what is the best way to run ads?

David Baer: 00:16:07

Should I, what types of ads should I run?

David Baer: 00:16:10

What should the, um, uh, you know, the goal of this campaign be, uh, how,

David Baer: 00:16:15

how should I structure it in terms of the, um, Interaction with the person

David Baer: 00:16:20

who does click, should I be collecting leads or should I send somebody right

David Baer: 00:16:25

into, you know, a sales process?

David Baer: 00:16:27

Uh, if I'm gonna have a form for them to fill out, what's the nature

David Baer: 00:16:31

of the data that I'm collecting there, um, where where's too much

David Baer: 00:16:35

friction versus, you know, not enough information, where's the right balance.

David Baer: 00:16:38

Now, most businesses don't know that stuff.

David Baer: 00:16:40

And sadly, most marketers.

David Baer: 00:16:44

Don't tend to get that deep into thinking through all of the types of questions.

David Baer: 00:16:50

And there's a lot more, right?

David Baer: 00:16:51

Like, you know, are they joining an email list and how many, uh, emails are, are,

David Baer: 00:16:55

you know, being sent out to follow up on getting them to, to move through this

David Baer: 00:16:59

short term, initial nurture, uh, what is it that's being said to them, et cetera,

David Baer: 00:17:04

um, which is going to inform who are we targeting and, and all of those things.

David Baer: 00:17:10

That's really not something that a typical service provider is trained

David Baer: 00:17:16

to or really thinks through what they are really good at is the delivery

David Baer: 00:17:21

of the technical tactical work.

David Baer: 00:17:25

Now at the other end of the spectrum, what you've just described is what I

David Baer: 00:17:29

would refer to as a trusted advisor.

David Baer: 00:17:31

And that's the relationship that I, I said, you know, earlier most

David Baer: 00:17:34

businesses have a trusted advisor around certain activities in their business.

David Baer: 00:17:39

It might be around financial management.

David Baer: 00:17:41

It might be around legal issues.

David Baer: 00:17:42

It might be around operational organizational structure where they

David Baer: 00:17:47

tend to lack having a trusted advisor.

David Baer: 00:17:50

Is in marketing and or sales.

David Baer: 00:17:52

And, and frankly, I believe sales is a, a subcategory of marketing.

David Baer: 00:17:56

Um, and, and therefore would be well, um, uh, you know, positioned

David Baer: 00:18:04

to invest in somebody to help hold their hand or guide them through it.

David Baer: 00:18:08

If they don't have those resources internally.

David Baer: 00:18:11

Now what's in between.

David Baer: 00:18:14

Is where I think there's a lot of agencies that lie.

David Baer: 00:18:17

And, and this is something that I think is important to stress because

David Baer: 00:18:20

what I, as I browse through lots of agency websites, I see some, um,

David Baer: 00:18:28

lip service to the word strategy.

David Baer: 00:18:33

And I talk to a lot of, of agency owners who believe they are strategists.

David Baer: 00:18:39

And when I try to dig into what they actually mean by that, well,

David Baer: 00:18:43

it's, it's one of a few things.

David Baer: 00:18:45

It's either that they are strategists of a particular tactic.

David Baer: 00:18:49

So they are, you know, website optimization strategists.

David Baer: 00:18:54

They are, you know, search engine optimization strategists.

David Baer: 00:18:58

They are, uh, YouTube, um, you know, strategists, whatever it might be,

David Baer: 00:19:06

but they're not holistic business growth or revenue growth strategists.

David Baer: 00:19:12

Ultimately is what the agency's job is.

David Baer: 00:19:15

It's to drive more revenue to the business that might start with lead generation,

David Baer: 00:19:22

but ultimately there's all the steps that happen after lead generation that an

David Baer: 00:19:28

agency can, and often should be involved in if they're going to be able to deliver

David Baer: 00:19:35

the best value to the business overall.

David Baer: 00:19:37

And the business goals are usually not.

David Baer: 00:19:40

More leads.

David Baer: 00:19:41

The business goals are more or consistent or predictable revenue.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:46

What's really interesting there is like how much the agency side of

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:50

that feels like it's so right on the ball.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:53

Because like when you have a little bit more of the customer journey for a

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:55

business and you can see, okay, here's how the business is making money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:58

Here's how the business wants to make money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:59

Here's how things are flowing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:01

Here's like areas where we can strategically help and influence the

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:05

business on the total flip, other side of.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:08

Is the business opening their doors to the agency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:11

So why would a business struggle?

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:14

Why do businesses struggle opening their doors and letting that, that level of

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:18

a relationship develop with an agency?

David Baer: 00:20:20

Yeah, well, first I, I think it is in part because

David Baer: 00:20:24

they don't know any better.

David Baer: 00:20:24

Right.

David Baer: 00:20:25

The, the way that they have been trained, as I explained before is really about,

David Baer: 00:20:29

you know, um, the sales of a tactic.

David Baer: 00:20:31

And so if nobody has said, Hey, you know, there's a holistic

David Baer: 00:20:36

approach that you could be taking.

David Baer: 00:20:38

No, nobody is out there, uh, uh, promoting that as, as the better route.

David Baer: 00:20:46

Right, when I say nobody, there's, there's very few of us who are out there promoting

David Baer: 00:20:50

that, but there's a sea of people who are saying this tactic, that tactic.

David Baer: 00:20:55

Right.

David Baer: 00:20:56

And so I, I think in part it's, because that's just how we, all of us.

David Baer: 00:21:01

Both in the marketing industry and, and, and in the, you know, business

David Baer: 00:21:06

owner world have been trained.

David Baer: 00:21:08

So I, I think that that's, that's the biggest piece.

David Baer: 00:21:11

Now.

David Baer: 00:21:13

I, I have rarely encountered a business owner who, when we sort

David Baer: 00:21:17

of break down the opportunity that they have to not be tactical

David Baer: 00:21:23

first, but rather strategic first.

David Baer: 00:21:26

Right that they go, uh, no, I'm good.

David Baer: 00:21:28

Just send me leads.

David Baer: 00:21:29

And so I, I think that it's really that they're just not having the

David Baer: 00:21:32

right conversation and not being presented with the right information.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:35

Gotcha, so here's one that comes from kind of my experience.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:40

So here's a question for you.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:41

So how important is it that the business understand what the

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:47

agency is going to be executing?

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:50

The, the strategy, the tactics, the whole execution, because.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:54

There were times in my experience where like, I felt like, how am

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:59

I gonna be able to explain this?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:01

This is some of this gets kind of nitty gritty.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:03

And at the same time, you know, maybe high level, isn't gonna be impressive enough.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:08

Maybe this won't explain the value that we're providing enough.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:12

There's a balance there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:13

And I, and I know some business leaders are different than others.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:15

So like, but how I'd say in general, how important is it that the business

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:20

really understands what the agency is trying to execute for them?

David Baer: 00:22:23

I don't think that the individual specific tactical, uh, activity

David Baer: 00:22:28

is critical for them to know in detail.

David Baer: 00:22:31

However, if they don't, again, it's, it's all about, uh, foundation and perception.

David Baer: 00:22:38

So the foundation of the relationship is I'm investing in this agency's work.

David Baer: 00:22:43

And we have agreed that here is the strategic approach we are taking

David Baer: 00:22:48

to, you know, this outcome that we have both defined and agreed upon.

David Baer: 00:22:53

And then I'm, I'm putting it in their hands to execute on the tactics that

David Baer: 00:22:57

they, that they, uh, either have have said are going to be the right tactics

David Baer: 00:23:03

to achieve that strategic approach.

David Baer: 00:23:06

Businesses don't need to get into the weeds with that stuff.

David Baer: 00:23:09

Now they're welcome to if they want to, but if you approach it that way, where

David Baer: 00:23:15

there's an understanding about sort of the bigger picture and how this activity

David Baer: 00:23:19

fits into it, you get a lot less pushback or resistance from a business because

David Baer: 00:23:24

we've, we've sort of worked together.

David Baer: 00:23:27

To come up with the big overarching plan that this is a piece of if however,

David Baer: 00:23:33

they don't have that foundation, uh, that they've bought into.

David Baer: 00:23:38

Well, then it's a heck of a lot more challenging for them to, you know, be

David Baer: 00:23:43

presented with something and, and then turn to the agency and look at it and

David Baer: 00:23:46

go, why the heck are we doing this?

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:48

Hah hah hah...

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:48

right right, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:50

Like I remember sending over, we were like, well, we agree.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:53

We're gonna test ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:54

And we have something like 12 segments.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:57

So if we're gonna test them, we need, you know, at least minimum

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:59

one and one, one control, one test.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:02

So with 12, that meant 24.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:04

And, uh, we were like, okay, we're gonna be sending over the, like the 24 vari,

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:09

like the 24 total things over to you.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:11

And they're like, man, that seems like a lot.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:13

Damn, don't worry about it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:14

And then later on they saw an ad, they saw one from, and they

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:17

were like, I didn't approve this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:20

there there's there was like that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:22

And so like for me, it was like a dance of, okay, how much.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:26

Of this does need to be approved and looked at every little, granular bit.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:29

And then to the other extent, like I work with some who are like, great,

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:32

fine, you know, just tell me at the end of the month, how things work.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:34

So that relationship finding, I guess the tone of that relationship,

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:38

the pulse, the pace, the, the need for the things explained.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:43

Was definitely something that you kind of have to, to get used to or learn as you

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:47

go from the, from the agency perspective.

David Baer: 00:24:49

I look, I I'd say that a lot of, a lot of businesses would be

David Baer: 00:24:53

very happy to just hand off everything to an agency and not think about it.

David Baer: 00:24:57

But in, in fact, you know, the work that the agencies are doing

David Baer: 00:25:01

on the, on the business's behalf are the driver to continuing to

David Baer: 00:25:08

stay in business and to grow.

David Baer: 00:25:10

And so it it's, it's kind of misplaced to, to have marketing, be a, an afterthought

David Baer: 00:25:17

for the leadership in, in a business that said most agencies also, uh, put

David Baer: 00:25:25

themselves in the position of a situation.

David Baer: 00:25:28

Like the one that you've just described, because I'm gonna assume

David Baer: 00:25:31

that the relationship was not based on.

David Baer: 00:25:36

Full understanding or buy-in on the part of the client, uh, of exactly.

David Baer: 00:25:43

What needed to be done to achieve their goals, what the individual

David Baer: 00:25:48

pieces were to, to achieve their goal.

David Baer: 00:25:49

And frankly, um, it, it, it probably the 24 ads were not presented in the context

David Baer: 00:25:55

of here's the process that we pursue and we're going to be split testing.

David Baer: 00:26:01

And there's a reason we have this many ads because there are all these

David Baer: 00:26:05

different permutations and potential directions that, you know, we may.

David Baer: 00:26:10

Go or may discover are going to be winning, winning, uh, uh,

David Baer: 00:26:15

messaging or, or winning visuals.

David Baer: 00:26:17

And so we want to make sure that we find the best one that's going to.

David Baer: 00:26:25

Minimize your investment on a per action basis per lead, per click,

David Baer: 00:26:31

per whatever, so that we ultimately have a great campaign built for you.

David Baer: 00:26:37

Now, if that was stated in advance of handing somebody 24 ads to

David Baer: 00:26:41

review, do you think maybe they would've had a different, uh...

David Baer: 00:26:45

response.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:46

Right, yeah, like understanding or having the right

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:49

expectations and process and what's involved and, and knowing ahead of time,

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:53

a little bit, like here's here, here's more, here's like the context around

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:57

what I'm asking so that you have a better understanding of it makes total sense.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:00

So let's say a business today has an agency, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:04

And they're listening to this and they're going, Hmm.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:07

How, how does my relationship with my agency, where does it fit

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:11

into this, into this spectrum?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:12

So what would you say are things that a business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:16

Today be looking at its agency and going, is this the right relationship?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:21

Is this the right agency?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:22

Is this the, the right, um, strategic combination of things that I need

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:28

from the agency to be successful?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:30

Or should I go, Hmm, may maybe I just have a BA a basic vendor type relationship.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:35

How would they know that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:35

You know, like what would help a business sort of evaluate that?

David Baer: 00:27:39

Yeah, so I think maybe we talked, uh, briefly about the difference

David Baer: 00:27:43

between strategies and tactics.

David Baer: 00:27:44

I've, I've made the assumption that, uh, you know, our, our, our listening audience

David Baer: 00:27:49

knows what I mean by each of those words, but, you know, the taking a strategic

David Baer: 00:27:54

and systematic approach to marketing is really what I'm endorsing, uh, and, uh,

David Baer: 00:28:01

saying that agencies really need to play an active role in the bigger picture.

David Baer: 00:28:08

If the business doesn't already have their, you know, their, their hands

David Baer: 00:28:12

and minds wrapped around that already.

David Baer: 00:28:16

And so when I say strategy, what I mean is how do you get

David Baer: 00:28:21

from where you currently are?

David Baer: 00:28:23

Your, what I call as is state to where you want to get to the, to B state and.

David Baer: 00:28:33

When you think about all of the internal organizational, um, operational and

David Baer: 00:28:40

external competition marketplace, um, et cetera, influences the

David Baer: 00:28:46

environmental influences, right?

David Baer: 00:28:48

Those are things that are going to inform what tactically.

David Baer: 00:28:54

You invest in.

David Baer: 00:28:54

So, um, you know, if I'm in a, I'm a business and I want to grow,

David Baer: 00:29:00

you know, my revenue threefold.

David Baer: 00:29:04

Okay.

David Baer: 00:29:05

And I know that there's a certain, um, market segment that I haven't gone after.

David Baer: 00:29:11

That is going to help me get there.

David Baer: 00:29:13

Well, there's a set of tactics that I can include and I can rule.

David Baer: 00:29:19

Because I know that I want to go after these particular people and I want to put

David Baer: 00:29:23

this particular offer in front of them.

David Baer: 00:29:26

And oh, by the way, these are people who might be willing to pay more.

David Baer: 00:29:28

So maybe I'm going to strategically consider my pricing

David Baer: 00:29:33

structure for this new offer.

David Baer: 00:29:35

Right?

David Baer: 00:29:36

Those are a lot of pieces that an agency can and should have some involvement in

David Baer: 00:29:44

whether it's full ownership or whether it's participation in the planning.

David Baer: 00:29:49

But if your current agency isn't really privy to these types of things or your

David Baer: 00:29:56

organization, your business, hasn't really thought through either the strategic

David Baer: 00:30:01

and systematic approach to all of this.

David Baer: 00:30:04

Well, that's where I think you need to go to an agency that you you're

David Baer: 00:30:07

currently working with and say, you know, I, I heard some guy on some podcast

David Baer: 00:30:11

somewhere say some stuff that sounded really, you know, like a good idea.

David Baer: 00:30:14

Maybe we should have a conversation.

David Baer: 00:30:16

And I think that's a good starting point because I is that clear,

David Baer: 00:30:20

Kevin, the, the difference between where I think most businesses and

David Baer: 00:30:25

agencies are sitting right now and where they have the potential to sit.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:28

Yeah, I think it, it made me feel like you're looking a little bit more

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:32

long term, but not just long term, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:34

It you're also looking at it like, here are the areas of the business that

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:40

are opportunities for growth, how to execute on all those things, but not

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:44

just in, you know, a narrow way, but cuz anytime business puts resources into

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:49

something, there's almost always like a, like a secondary impact of doing that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:54

Like the way I know the way I understand it is like, sure I'm gonna run.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:57

I'm gonna run ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:58

I'm gonna run leads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:59

But what about the team?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:00

That's gonna get them how we know they're gonna work.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:03

How do we know that we're hitting them?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:04

Right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:04

How do we know that those things are being, you know, moved through

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:07

and being sold and they align with what the business wanted.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:09

That gets a little more operational, which gets a little more strategic,

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:13

you know, like, yes, we want to, you know, get leads from this group.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:17

Tactically, let's send some emails, but how we treat them, what we

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:21

wanna put in them, does it align with what's already on our website?

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:24

You know, there's a lot of things from the wider picture that need to be.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:29

Need to be like, confirmed or checked on or, or just supported in a business

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:33

that, that, that goes to asking a lot more questions if you're BI and it

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:36

feels like the agency needs to be very much asking lots of questions to be

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:41

able to get the information they need and the business could be thinking.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:44

This might be helpful for them to know or this is, you know, yes.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:48

I'm gonna answer.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:49

I'm gonna help them find their strategic area instead of like, trying

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:53

to make it like, you know, here's, you're just gonna live in a black box.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:58

um, that's sort of what, you're what, it's what it makes me think about.

David Baer: 00:32:00

Yeah, so what, one of the things that I was sort of

David Baer: 00:32:02

thinking about in preparation for our conversation today was how

David Baer: 00:32:06

does a business shop for an agency?

David Baer: 00:32:08

And you, you brought up a really important point.

David Baer: 00:32:11

An agency which asks the right questions is the agency that impresses me.

David Baer: 00:32:17

Right.

David Baer: 00:32:18

And so what do I mean by the right questions?

David Baer: 00:32:20

Well, I want to know more than, you know, what's your budget and how many leads

David Baer: 00:32:27

do you want me to send you a month or some, you know, variation on that theme?

David Baer: 00:32:32

Right, what I really want to hear an agency ask me as a business owner is.

David Baer: 00:32:39

To, to really get a full needs assessment.

David Baer: 00:32:42

Let me, let me tell you what I mean by this.

David Baer: 00:32:44

Okay.

David Baer: 00:32:45

And, and again, this is what we train, uh, our agency licensees to, to, to

David Baer: 00:32:50

do, which is look into a business's full range of revenue, generating, um,

David Baer: 00:32:57

activities and dig into them because what, what, um, what they could uncover.

David Baer: 00:33:06

Could make, you know, the, the engagement of that agency, uh, the, the

David Baer: 00:33:11

potentially the best investment ever.

David Baer: 00:33:14

So let's talk about sort of how, uh, a standard typical business

David Baer: 00:33:20

structure works with services business.

David Baer: 00:33:23

I mean, this could work with a, uh, you know, retail business,

David Baer: 00:33:26

e-commerce business, basically any place where there's relat.

David Baer: 00:33:30

With the buyer, uh, where that, that influences.

David Baer: 00:33:34

So it's, it's not really, you know, uh, brand relationship, but business owner or

David Baer: 00:33:41

employee relationship, or even, oh, you know, an eCommerce website relationship

David Baer: 00:33:47

with, with a, um, uh, consumer.

David Baer: 00:33:50

So obviously there's the, where, where are the leads coming from?

David Baer: 00:33:54

How are we getting the leads to the business in the first.

David Baer: 00:33:58

If you are doing a good job of that as a business, um, how were, are you

David Baer: 00:34:05

capturing leads from people who come to your website, into your store, et cetera?

David Baer: 00:34:11

Right.

David Baer: 00:34:12

I know so many stories that I could, I could share of times that I was in a

David Baer: 00:34:16

retail shop and asking lots of questions.

David Baer: 00:34:20

And, uh, this happened to me not too long ago.

David Baer: 00:34:22

I was in a hat shop and, and I remember.

David Baer: 00:34:25

It was like, you know, quarter to five, they were closing at five o'clock.

David Baer: 00:34:29

I had some, you know, deep questions.

David Baer: 00:34:31

I was asking about some reasonably, uh, expensive merchandise that they had.

David Baer: 00:34:36

We were leading toward a sale and they basically said, Hey, we're closing up.

David Baer: 00:34:41

Um, I'm not, and I gotta run outta here.

David Baer: 00:34:43

I don't have the time to answer all of your questions.

David Baer: 00:34:46

Do you wanna come back another time?

David Baer: 00:34:47

We can finish this?

David Baer: 00:34:48

Okay.

David Baer: 00:34:48

Sure.

David Baer: 00:34:49

And I left.

David Baer: 00:34:51

Now they had no idea who I was.

David Baer: 00:34:53

They had no guarantee I was ever gonna come back.

David Baer: 00:34:55

They were the one who ended the conversation.

David Baer: 00:34:58

They didn't capture the lead.

David Baer: 00:35:00

Right.

David Baer: 00:35:01

They had so much opportunity to, once you do capture leads.

David Baer: 00:35:05

Um, the next question is really, do you have, uh, a way to nurture that

David Baer: 00:35:11

relationship as you're trying to move them forward in a buying relationship, right?

David Baer: 00:35:17

You want to get them to move from.

David Baer: 00:35:20

Being a lead, being a, a prospective customer to becoming a customer.

David Baer: 00:35:25

And very often businesses will ignore those who are not ready

David Baer: 00:35:30

to buy now and forget about them.

David Baer: 00:35:33

And very often, you know, it, uh, I don't remember the exact statistic, but in the,

David Baer: 00:35:37

in the car industry, most people who are shopping for cars don't buy right away.

David Baer: 00:35:43

It's something like nine to 12 months down the.

David Baer: 00:35:46

And, and, and, and here in 2022 that given, uh, the, the, uh, issue of

David Baer: 00:35:51

inventory availability, it might even be further down the road, no pun intended.

David Baer: 00:35:58

Um, what if, once you do nurture them to the point of them being

David Baer: 00:36:03

ready to buy, do you have systems in place to convert that sale?

David Baer: 00:36:07

Do you have onboarding systems in place?

David Baer: 00:36:08

Do you have a, uh, systems around customer delight to make sure that

David Baer: 00:36:15

you are building a relationship with somebody who then wants to champion

David Baer: 00:36:19

your, your business wants to invest further in what you have to offer?

David Baer: 00:36:24

Do you know, do you have systems that are going to.

David Baer: 00:36:28

Easily and appropriately present additional offers to

David Baer: 00:36:31

them based on who they are.

David Baer: 00:36:33

Right.

David Baer: 00:36:34

That are programmatic around what they bought this.

David Baer: 00:36:36

Maybe now they should buy that, right?

David Baer: 00:36:38

Like, like Amazon does recommending, Hey, people who bought this also bought that.

David Baer: 00:36:42

You want that too.

David Baer: 00:36:43

Do you have systems in place around, um, managing and orchestrating referrals?

David Baer: 00:36:50

Right?

David Baer: 00:36:51

These are all places where a, an agency could have the opportunity.

David Baer: 00:36:56

To engage with and support the business' revenue growth overall.

David Baer: 00:37:01

And so any agency that is talking about that stuff, Well, I would be super excited

David Baer: 00:37:06

to have a deeper conversation with them because they really get the big picture.

David Baer: 00:37:11

Whereas most agencies are, are focusing on a much, much narrower area within that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:17

I guess like what you've just said makes me think.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:20

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:20

Yeah, that sounds really golden.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:22

That sounds really awesome.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:24

At the same time.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:25

I wonder, I wanna make sure.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:27

That I, I understand it right too.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:30

What sort of requirement does having a better relationship with an agency

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:35

put on the business like debts?

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:37

That also sounds like it may need, you know, a meeting or a couple meetings

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:41

or, you know, opening your doors to the agency may mean, you know, some

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:45

of your team need to ha will need to have some meetings with the agency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:48

So they have a really good understanding of either the product, the service,

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:52

what is being delivered, what makes it unique, like maybe a couple.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:56

A regular ongoing meeting with the owner or with executive leadership or something

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:00

like, and for the small business, I know I've heard this where they go.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:04

I barely have time it as it is.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:06

So like, the relationship is gonna be limited by my, my availability, my time,

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:11

which is tough because they may go, I'd love that relationship to be better.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:15

I just don't know if I can carve out the time because I, you know,

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:20

operationally, organizationally in the way my business is being run.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:24

I'm just overtaxed in time.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:26

So it's like, should a business think about what is gonna be required of them?

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:33

When they enter, like in a, like the kind of relationship or enter into

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:37

having an agency support them because there are, I think some requirements

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:41

that will be beneficial for both of them, but they both have to be willing

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:45

to, to do that, to go there, right.

David Baer: 00:38:47

You're absolutely right.

David Baer: 00:38:48

And you know, there's this, this factor involved here called human nature.

David Baer: 00:38:54

And, and I think, you know, where, where I would go with that is many businesses

David Baer: 00:38:59

and business owners are never, ever gonna have the willingness or, or, uh, capacity.

David Baer: 00:39:04

And, and, and no, I should say willingness because they can create capacity, right.

David Baer: 00:39:09

But the willingness to create capacity to take this kind of approach on.

David Baer: 00:39:15

And so it is much, much easier.

David Baer: 00:39:18

For us as humans to, uh, choose the, the, the option that is, um, has less

David Baer: 00:39:26

friction has less, um, required of us, even though we know that it may not, um,

David Baer: 00:39:33

result in, in the same quality of outcome.

David Baer: 00:39:39

And so I, I would say, look, this is, this is something that every business

David Baer: 00:39:43

owner needs to look internally and say, you know, Is it that I don't

David Baer: 00:39:48

have the time or is it that I have chosen not to prioritize the time.

David Baer: 00:39:54

And, and you can tell I've had this conversation with many, a business

David Baer: 00:39:57

owner because that that's really, I think where the, where the answer lies.

David Baer: 00:40:01

And, uh, again, I, I don't know too many business owners who are gonna

David Baer: 00:40:04

say, I heard some guy on a podcast who suggested that maybe I need

David Baer: 00:40:07

to prioritize my time differently.

David Baer: 00:40:09

And poof, I had an epiphany, but I hope that somebody does.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:12

Hah hah...

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:15

hope it's inspiring.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:16

Okay, so now here's a little flip to this, the sort of alternative that

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:22

I, the way I see it to an agency is, and still having the need, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:27

The business needs there, the needs are still present and still wanting to achieve

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:31

those is to just bring people in-house.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:34

So the case is always there, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:37

Like in-house versus.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:41

Agency third party help support.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:43

And sometimes it's a, sometimes it's one and then another, you know, get

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:46

things going and then I'll switch to the other or I'll do both.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:49

I think there's a lot of different paths a business could take.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:51

But what would you say about those paths and some of the, you

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:55

know, like how do you look at a, a business who's like, ultimately.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:59

It probably would serve us best to be more in-house or maybe it would

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:02

serve us best to have a combination or to just utilize the strategic, uh,

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:06

trusted advisor as you've described it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:09

So how do you look at that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:10

That landscape?

David Baer: 00:41:11

Yeah, I, I think that I am less an advocate of, uh, hiring

David Baer: 00:41:15

agencies than I am an advocate of, uh, approaching your marketing

David Baer: 00:41:21

strategically and systematically.

David Baer: 00:41:23

And so if that means that you are going to run things in house.

David Baer: 00:41:29

And through your strategic development, you determine that there are things that

David Baer: 00:41:34

need to be done, tactically, that you can either hire additional people for

David Baer: 00:41:40

based on their skillset or outsource to somebody based on their skillset.

David Baer: 00:41:44

That's that's the way I would go.

David Baer: 00:41:47

It.

David Baer: 00:41:47

I don't think there's a real difference from my perspective on

David Baer: 00:41:50

whether you should do it in house or, or job it out to a partner.

David Baer: 00:41:55

What I think is important is that you invest in your marketing, uh,

David Baer: 00:42:00

with a bigger picture in mind.

David Baer: 00:42:02

You, you said longer term.

David Baer: 00:42:03

I, I think it's not just longer term, but, um, considering all of

David Baer: 00:42:09

the possible revenue generation op options that you have, because a lot

David Baer: 00:42:14

of businesses are, are simply not.

David Baer: 00:42:17

Thinking as strategically as they could be about the goal that they have.

David Baer: 00:42:20

So if the goal is make X amount of revenue, there's a

David Baer: 00:42:24

lot of ways you can do that.

David Baer: 00:42:27

And, and so it, it may be a pricing strategy.

David Baer: 00:42:30

It may be, you know, that you change the market focus.

David Baer: 00:42:33

It may be, you know, so many other things.

David Baer: 00:42:35

And that has nothing to do with whether you have an agency or

David Baer: 00:42:37

whether you have somebody in house.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:39

Okay, so let's say you're the business, small business that's

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:42

decided I want to go look for, to hire an agency that fits a more strategic model.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:48

Um, cuz I would like to have a more trusted position and I

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:52

want them to find and help me.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:53

You know, move forward with growth opportunities, revenue generating

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:56

opportunities, just like you've just said.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:58

So what tips would you have for the business leadership business owners?

Kevin Dieny: 00:43:05

Like who are facing that and wanting to hire the right agency?

David Baer: 00:43:08

Sure, well, if, if somebody has been sitting, listening

David Baer: 00:43:11

to everything I've been preaching and says, wow, I really love this duffle.

David Baer: 00:43:15

Then he should just come, uh, to, to us and find one of our licensees.

David Baer: 00:43:19

Who's already doing all of this.

David Baer: 00:43:21

Um, that said, I think that, you know, uh, finding agencies, which focus on

David Baer: 00:43:28

a strategic approach, Is important and understanding that it, that you need to

David Baer: 00:43:35

vet them a little to understand if they are using lip service around the term

David Baer: 00:43:39

strategy, or if they are actually invested in thinking through, you know, The types

David Baer: 00:43:46

of things that I've discussed, whether it's revenue generation overall, whether

David Baer: 00:43:50

it's understanding the market and where they hang out and therefore we're going to

David Baer: 00:43:55

select these tactics versus those tactics.

David Baer: 00:43:58

That's the type of thing that I think is really important for

David Baer: 00:44:01

businesses to listen for as they're, as they're, you know, talking to.

David Baer: 00:44:07

Potential service providers, because you're gonna get a sense of whether they

David Baer: 00:44:11

really get it, or whether they're just trying to sell the thing that they happen

David Baer: 00:44:15

to do, which is really what so many marketing service providers and agencies,

David Baer: 00:44:20

uh, do in reality is, is, you know, find a reason to, to get that, uh, square

David Baer: 00:44:28

peg in the round hole, no matter what.

David Baer: 00:44:31

Uh, because there's always, you know, everybody always needs our solution and

David Baer: 00:44:35

therefore we're going to show them exactly how our solution is, you know, always

David Baer: 00:44:39

gonna, always gonna fit their need, right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:40

That is daunting.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:42

And I say that because it can be so easy to be sold to and be like,

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:48

like there are great sales people.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:50

There's great pitches.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:50

There's.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:52

It might even be looked at what we're talking about right now.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:54

Sounds like a great pitch.

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:56

but honestly, like getting just like you said, venting

Kevin Dieny: 00:44:58

them enough, getting to, okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:00

They actually in are invested in the strategic approach, figuring that out

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:06

does seem a little, that's the daunting part, the way I'm feeling right now,

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:10

that seems like it is a little difficult.

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:12

And so I, I guess a tip for that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:15

Do you have anything to help a business owner?

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:16

Who's like, I just don't know...

Kevin Dieny: 00:45:18

hah.

David Baer: 00:45:18

Well, you know, I, I, yeah, I gave you a few areas

David Baer: 00:45:22

where, where business, uh, revenue could come from outside of what a

David Baer: 00:45:26

typical agency tends to focus on.

David Baer: 00:45:29

Um, uh, talking about.

David Baer: 00:45:31

And so I would ask an agency where, you know, let's use customer

David Baer: 00:45:36

delight as an example, right?

David Baer: 00:45:38

This is really about operational, uh, and communication.

David Baer: 00:45:42

So what I mean by customer delight, it might be, you know, um, overdelivering

David Baer: 00:45:47

in, in certain ways that are, that are really getting customers to go.

David Baer: 00:45:51

Wow.

David Baer: 00:45:52

I, I knew I was buying this, but I wasn't expecting that.

David Baer: 00:45:55

Wow.

David Baer: 00:45:55

I love you.

David Baer: 00:45:57

And so if you, if you, you know, present that, Hey, um, you know, we're, we're

David Baer: 00:46:02

working on getting more leads in the door, but we also have some questions about, you

David Baer: 00:46:05

know, improving our custom delight stuff or, um, or, or more consistent referrals.

David Baer: 00:46:12

Is that something you have any experience?

David Baer: 00:46:14

Just a simple question like that will help inform whether this

David Baer: 00:46:19

is an agency that thinks beyond the, the sort of standard stuff.

David Baer: 00:46:24

I, I think, I think that's probably a, a, a, you know, where I would start.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:28

Yeah, wow, that's, that's really helpful because like,

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:32

I, I'm constantly trying to put myself into both these shoes in the

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:34

top, in like the, you know, there's two sort of perspectives here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:37

There's the business, there's the agency putting myself into the

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:40

shoes of the business or the agency?

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:41

What, what would they be thinking?

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:42

What are they doing with, how are they gonna be evaluating this?

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:46

Cuz at the end of the day, you know, the, the takeaway I'm hoping from this

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:50

episode two is like, I have a better idea.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:52

One, of my business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:46:55

And if it could potentially utilize an agency, number two, if I decide

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:00

I want an agency, or if I have an agency, am I get, am I going to get

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:04

everything I possibly could out of it?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:05

What's the best, uh, ideal picture relationship, the best,

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:10

like it could be like, are there revenue opportunities that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:14

Gonna be open to me that I'm not aware of.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:17

Um, a little bit of that feels like might little might need some humility might

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:22

need to be like, yes, my business might need this, but at the end of the day, it's

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:25

like, look, the business wants to grow.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:27

What is it gonna do to achieve those goals?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:29

What is it gonna do to achieve its growth that it needs, that it, it

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:31

has to go after that it is hungering for, and some of them aren't.

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:34

Really interested in growth, but the ones that are, you know, are

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:37

they evaluating like a partnership as an opportunity for growth?

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:41

So those are some of the things, you know, in totality from this I, I was

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:45

looking at, was there anything that we didn't talk about or we missed

Kevin Dieny: 00:47:47

David that you wanted to mention?

David Baer: 00:47:49

You know, I, as you were just talking about this, uh, one, one

David Baer: 00:47:52

thing popped into my head, which is that we, we, we don't do direct client

David Baer: 00:47:56

services anymore, uh, except on a rare occasion when, when our arms are twisted

David Baer: 00:48:00

and we happen right now to be working.

David Baer: 00:48:03

Somebody in the home services industry.

David Baer: 00:48:05

Now, if you are in that industry, you know that, uh, you are, or you believe you are

David Baer: 00:48:11

incredibly busy and have no time for any of the stuff we've been talking about.

David Baer: 00:48:16

Okay.

David Baer: 00:48:16

However, um, there are a few enlightened souls, like the, like the client who

David Baer: 00:48:21

hired us, who, when they start thinking about their business in a different

David Baer: 00:48:25

light, uh, they had some personal goals.

David Baer: 00:48:28

They had some, you know, we're using the, the business as a

David Baer: 00:48:31

vehicle to be able to, uh, invest in something specific in their future.

David Baer: 00:48:36

Uh, you know, they.

David Baer: 00:48:37

You know, spend time elsewhere in the world doing mission work, you know,

David Baer: 00:48:41

for, for people, um, those sorts of things, it really helped reposition

David Baer: 00:48:47

why they actually would even think about going through a process, like

David Baer: 00:48:52

what I've been describing, because ultimately the business is there for.

David Baer: 00:48:59

Another purpose other than just to exist, right?

David Baer: 00:49:02

It's, it's there because you have a mission to help

David Baer: 00:49:04

people through the business.

David Baer: 00:49:06

You have a goal to make, you know, uh, money or, or build generational

David Baer: 00:49:12

wealth for your family, et cetera.

David Baer: 00:49:14

And so when you sort of step back from every piece of the, you know,

David Baer: 00:49:20

marketing strategy versus tactic conversation that we've been having

David Baer: 00:49:23

and think about what does this business mean to me in the first place?

David Baer: 00:49:27

And why am I doing this?

David Baer: 00:49:29

It really helps to then make the, the, the link between is approaching my

David Baer: 00:49:36

marketing differently, really worth the, the time that it would take to,

David Baer: 00:49:43

to, to do so because of what my specific personal, uh, goals are with the business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:49:50

Wow, that's really interesting to consider too.

Kevin Dieny: 00:49:52

That's like a different thing altogether.

Kevin Dieny: 00:49:54

I wouldn't have even thought about in this episode.

Kevin Dieny: 00:49:57

So thank you David.

Kevin Dieny: 00:49:58

Now, if let's say someone's like, all right, I wanna

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:00

follow up on, ask a question.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:01

I wanna learn more about you.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:03

I wanna learn more about your company.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:04

You know, you mentioned like find one of our licensees.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:07

How can someone reach out to you?

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:09

Connect with you, learn more?

David Baer: 00:50:10

Yeah, totally.

David Baer: 00:50:11

Uh, we are, um, easily found online at thepreparedgroup.com.

David Baer: 00:50:19

And, uh, like I said, we don't do client services.

David Baer: 00:50:22

Uh, we , uh, pre pretty much, uh, every week we are approached with,

David Baer: 00:50:26

Hey, can you help me with this project?

David Baer: 00:50:28

And we are so pleased to support the, uh, agencies who are working with

David Baer: 00:50:32

us, um, by, by introducing those, uh, those folks who are interested

David Baer: 00:50:37

in, in this approach to them.

David Baer: 00:50:39

And so I'm more than happy to, to.

David Baer: 00:50:41

To chat with anybody who wants to reach out to understand this process,

David Baer: 00:50:44

uh, a little bit more deeply.

David Baer: 00:50:46

There's plenty of information on our site that sort of digs

David Baer: 00:50:48

into the way that we do this.

David Baer: 00:50:51

Um, but if somebody wants to reach out through the website,

David Baer: 00:50:53

they certainly can as well.

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:55

Okay, and, and if let's say there's an agency, who's like, I kind of

Kevin Dieny: 00:50:58

like this idea and they wanna learn more.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:01

Is there anything different for them or, or just go through the website?

David Baer: 00:51:03

Yep.

David Baer: 00:51:04

They can come to the website and they can go to the licensing page.

David Baer: 00:51:06

So it's the prepared group.com/licensing.

David Baer: 00:51:09

Uh, and that's where you'll get all the details of the,

David Baer: 00:51:12

of the program that we have.

David Baer: 00:51:13

And, uh, look, it's not a, what I have explained here is not a fit for everyone.

David Baer: 00:51:18

If an agency has been looking for a way to be able to deliver the

David Baer: 00:51:23

stuff that we've been talking.

David Baer: 00:51:26

We should talk.

David Baer: 00:51:26

We may or may not be a good fit for, for you, um, and, and your specific

David Baer: 00:51:30

goals, but there's, there's a process for figuring that out and, and having

David Baer: 00:51:34

a conversation is, is the first step.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:36

Well, everybody, I hope you got a lot out of this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:38

I hope you're thinking about well.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:40

Hmm.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:40

How should I approach the.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:42

You know, looking for an agency or the relationship you have

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:45

with your current agency.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:46

Uh, thank you everyone for listening, David, thank you so much for coming

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:49

on and helping us really expanding this topic into a lot of depth.

Kevin Dieny: 00:51:53

I think that's been really helpful for everyone.

David Baer: 00:51:54

Yeah, indeed.

David Baer: 00:51:55

Kevin, this has been a real treat.