In part two of Chris’s story, we explore the shift from denial to self-acceptance as a queer person shaped by faith. Chris reflects on how embracing authenticity accelerated his journey, and how connecting with others who had already walked this path made healing feel possible. We talk about the grief that comes with recognising lost time spent under shame, conversion ideologies, and trying to survive within unsafe religious systems, as well as the complexity of redefining relationships built around a false version of self.

The conversation also turns toward Chris’s role in advocacy against conversion practices. He shares the emotional weight of stepping into public action, driven by responsibility rather than visibility, and the power of survivor-led movements in creating change. This episode weaves together personal healing and collective action, highlighting how community, truth-telling, and courage often go hand in hand.

Connect with Chris

1. For information on SOGICE - https://sogicesurvivors.com.au
2. To connect with Chris - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-csabs-67152b224/

Connect with Sam

1. You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
2. To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
3. Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

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This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that.

You'Re here with us so honest about who you are. What does that recovery process look like moving from that point?

Well, like I said, it was short and fast steps. So for me I, after I decided that I was going to be like, you know what, I'm going to tell the truth. I'm going to be gay.

You know, I'm going to say I'm gay.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean I'm going to do gay things because I still think that's wrong, but I'm going to be gay. And then very quickly after that, it was, okay, I'm gay and I'm gonna start looking at some affirming theology. Yeah, that what that's about.

And then it was, I'm talking to my parents about what they believe now and why they change their views on, you know. And so I was getting closer and closer and closer and then all of a sudden it was like, oh my gosh, I've wasted all that time.

Yeah.

You know, I've been holding on to something that was never going to happen. And one of the other catalysts for it was that I contacted a one of the ex gay people that was pumping out some books in America.

He was young he was only a little older than me, and I was like, if he's been healed, that gives me hope because he's just a little bit older than me.

And I contacted him and he was like, oh, look, maybe we could talk on Skype, you know, so Skyped with him a couple of times and I said to him, listen, I really just need to know how long did it take you between starting this process and actually being attracted to women? And he was like, oh, well, that's, you know, that's a complicated thing. Essentially still gay.

It hasn't happened.

Yeah. And I. That was, that was actually the point where I was like, this whole thing is a lie.

Yeah.

And I started looking into it, realized that a number of ex gays that had professed healing.

Yeah.

Were gay and were actually just suppressing their sexuality. And so all of these things kind of happened very quickly, I want to say, in like a six month period. Yeah. And then. Yeah.

So that's kind of how it happened. And then. Yeah.

I mean, what was the grief like at that point, though? Because like you said, you. I imagine, like that moment of like, I've wasted so much time.

Yeah, it was that. It was. I've wasted so much time. I've wasted, like my teenage years worrying about this shit.

And I've wasted my early 20s when I should have been enjoying myself and meeting people and, like, you know, just being okay with myself. I've spent the whole time bound up, you know, not being a real person, basically. But it was more than that. It was also telling my friends.

So the people who I'd surrounded myself with for the last seven years, who all knew me as an ex gay Christian, my bandmates that I had spent two years traveling full time with and living with in bizarre circumstances, telling them and knowing that they were disappointed, but more than disappointed, it was like, oh, so you've decided to, to go back to what you were. Yeah, yeah. You know, and that was very hard.

Yeah, it was.

And it was, it was, that was painful because I kind of was at a point then where I was like, well, I've lost a lot of what gave my life meaning, or what I thought gave my life meaning was my relationship with these. With relationships with these people. And also this.

I was a. I was a Christian singer and I was a. I was a performer that was like totally sold out for Jesus and that I could go to churches and they saw me as this. I was a model Christian, you know, and I, I lost that very quickly and kind of didn't know what, to replace it with? You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a very confusing time. I started going to a church, but then when I actually really accepted that I was gay, that wasn't really compatible.

So I, Yeah, I tried to find gay Christian communities, but it was really hard, difficult at the time. And, yeah, I kind of. I guess I started working in the real world. I was.

And started studying in the real world and had got my first boyfriend, experienced things that I hadn't experienced before, broke up with my first boyfriend, and then sort of just started doing life. But I was not fully comfortable being gay for a long time.

Yeah.

And I want to say, even I'm 40, I just turned 40, and I want to say that. I have only been very comfortable with being a gay Christian in the last few years. Yeah, it's taken that long, and it's taken a lot of. A lot of hurt.

And so I still had my faith, but it was just a personal one, you know, and it didn't. I didn't want. I wanted to go to a church, but I also knew that I probably wouldn't. Wouldn't be accepted.

And I, I know that there are queer churches around, and I was aware of them, I tried them out, but, like, it just felt for me, and this is not ragging on them, because queer churches provide a safe place, a much needed safe place for a lot of people.

But for me, I just felt like I, I want to go to a church where there's young families and where there's old people and where there's straight, gay, like, whatever. I want to just go to a. A church where we're all different and where we're not all united by this one thing.

I, I want us to be united by our faith and to just, you know, so I just hadn't been in ages and I, I forget what drew me there, but I decided to go back to that church that the who had originally, you know, introduced me to. Ron. Ron Rubman. And the past was still there and he was lovely. He had, he had apologized to me already for having made that introduction.

He was aware, you know, his beliefs have moved on somewhat. And, yeah, like, I felt like this could be good. And so before I started at the church, I Spoke to him and I said, listen, I need to know.

Like, I went a few times and I thought I could. I really enjoy it here. I said, I need to know that this is going to be a safe place, you know.

He said, oh, you know, well, you know, everyone's welcome.

And I said, no, but I need to know that, you know, I said, I know that everybody has a different opinion about gay Christians and about homosexuality and stuff, but I just want to know that, that I'm not going to be considered, like, not quite there, you know, I said, I said, like, for example, you know, if, like I was a singer years ago.

And so I'd like to know that if I come to the church for a year or two, there might come a time where I'd like to maybe join the worship team or something. Would that be a problem? And so. No, I don't see why that'd be a problem. No, no, no, no.

And so I dove into this church and invested in friendships and, you know, I knew that, you know, there would have been a lot of people in the church that didn't agree with homosexuality, but it also wasn't a problem as far as I knew. And the pastor had told me that there was no official stance at the church about homosexuality or anything.

It was just, you know, everyone has a different journey and everyone has a different opinion. I was like, that works for me. That's fine.

Then marriage equality happened and the whole country was like given permission to air their horrible views and horrible, you know, untrue and fear mongering views about LGBT people.

Yeah.

And the slippery slope that it was going to lead to and all the Save our Children stuff came out again, you know, and that was a very hard time. And I don't need, I know that everybody in the community would understand what I mean when I say that.

Then sort of not straight away, but I think it was, was partway through this thing, I got an email from the pastor that was sent to everybody in the church and basically saying that the church's official stance is that, you know, marriages between a man and woman, blah, blah, blah. And I read this email and I was like, I was shocked because I was like, hold on, I thought we agreed there was no stance.

Like, it sounds pretty official to me.

I was real. And I, I read this, I read this email and I was like, oh my gosh.

So straight away I had my girlfriend from, from church who I had been watching Drag Race with, and she'd, she'd talk to me a lot about how, you Know, I don't understand why the church doesn't just accept gay people, blah, blah. So, like, great. Texted her immediately. I was like, oh, my gosh, have you just read this email from Pastor?

And the response that I got was essentially, well, what did you want him to say, Chris? The Bible's. The Bible says what the Bible says. And I thought, oh, my God, I've been fooled and I have invested.

You know, I put, you know, I made friends. I felt at home. I felt like this was where God wanted me. I felt like, you know, and all of a sudden I was like, this is not a safe place.

And obviously these people don't see me as a Christian and don't. Like, this is obviously not somewhere I can be. And so I left and I did meet up with the pastor and talk about it.

He said that, you know, well, nothing's changed from my. My end, you know. And I said, well, okay, let me ask you, if I wanted to join the worship team, you know, would that be a problem?

And he said, well, we'd have to have a conversation about it. And I said, well, that's that old chest. That's different. That's different. So that really broke me, to be honest. And I didn't go.

Go back there until last weekend. But I'll get to that. Oh, my gosh, I'll get to that. I know, I told you, I'm. I'm a mess. I'm a mess.

Well, anyway, but, you know, the really hard thing for me was after that. Right. So we got marriage equality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And without realizing that it would happen, it went like crazy.

Yeah.

Like overnight, 5,000 signatures. And then by the end of the first week, it was like 20, 000 or something. Like, it was just nuts. And I started doing a lot of media. I would.

I was on the Carl and Jackie O show. I was on the Today show. I did. I mean, I. It was.

You were everywhere.

It was actually nuts. Yeah. You were everywhere. It was actually crazy because it was an accident.

And I had done it anonymously at first, but then it was pointed out to me that I had to make a choice. And it was, you know, if you want this petition to do something, you have to put your face to it. Yeah. And it was a big decision because huge.

I. I really wanted to remain anonymous. I was very worried that it would affect my career. I was worried about a lot of things.

Yeah.

But I decided that this was kind of an opportunity that I had to take because it was the first time in Australia that this issue had actually made it past, you know, oh, you know, like a half hour episode on TV about an ex gay person that everyone said, oh, isn't that shocking? I can't believe that still exists. And then they forget about the next day. The was. This was the first time it became like, national, ongoing news.

People wanted an answer. People wanted politicians to respond, and they did. It became a political, like, hot topic.

Yeah.

And I knew that I just couldn't not.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I mean, what was that like?

Like, we could talk about, like, the. The actual process and all of that sort of thing. But what was that like for you emotionally?

Because it was absolutely wild to watch from the out, like, from the outside. Like, what was that like for you emotionally, to do that process?

I was. I'd go through waves where, like, during the days, like, I. So I suffer a lot of anxiety, clearly. OCD anxiety, all of that stuff. And so I was.

I was functioning. I was okay.

And I. I really felt at that point not to get too spiro, but I did feel like God was, like, behind me, and like, this was like, I need to share my story. Yeah. Because this is important. You know, this is still happening. I knew some other survivors or, you know, had met.

Met them before, and I was like, this. This must be a God thing, because this doesn't happen all the time. Like, there have been petitions in the past that got a few hundreds, like.

This was why this one?

And it wasn't. It was. I want to be really clear. It was nothing that I did. Like, I didn't do anything amazingly different. It's not. It was pure.

Like, it was right place, right time. I think it was just timing. It came. So the petition. The petition was published. I can't remember if it was just before or just after a.

This was on purpose. A investigative piece came out by Farah Tamazan in the Age, which was quite amazing.

And that had people talking because it was a number of pages in a national newspaper, and people were like, what the heck? Then the petition gave people a way to respond, and I think that's why it worked. But I did feel like I have to do this. I have to see where it goes.

I have to see if this can actually make a change. But at the same time, I was very frightened about what it would mean for me sharing my story so publicly. And it was like, it's not like.

Like, I'd shared my story before on SBS and whatever, for little things. Because I did feel that it was important that people knew this is not right.

But this was different because it was like all eyes were on this topic and like, all eyes were like, on my story specifically. And it freaked me out. And I remember at nighttime particularly, I would have panic attacks and, you know, just, you know, I felt overexposed.

I felt like. Because I'm very honest.

I mean, you were the poster child, basically. Like the equivalent of that kind of thing.

Look, I don't. Yeah.

Like for a window of time.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Well, I would say my story was front and center.

Yeah.

For a number of months.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I'm gonna be honest, I had no idea what I was doing.

Yeah.

Because I've never done advocacy before. I'd never, like. I'd never been on the radio before. I mean, you know, never really, you know, I'd never been on TV before. And suddenly, like.

Like, you know, being interviewed about this and suddenly I had the news wanting to talk to me and I was like, you know, was just crazy.

Yeah.

And so that scared me. I felt like I have to get this right. And so the only way I could do that was by being really honest. Yeah. But then what comes with honesty?

So I would talk, I would be very open. I was very open with my story. I was very, very. Like, there was pretty much nothing that I didn't say. Like, I. I wanted it.

I wanted to be really candid and open about. Look, you need to see what's wrong with this. Have a look. This is what it did. This is how, like, messy I was at the end.

I'm going to tell you very openly and honestly, and it's embarrassing for me, but I'm going to share it because I need to. I need you to see. But with that, I think. Yeah. Panic attacks at night, particularly about. Have I overshared? Have I been too honest?

Is this going to come back on me? And like, am I going to be unemployable? Am I going to be. I don't know. I didn't know at the time that it was going to be received positively. Yeah.

You know, over the long term, I was very scared that I was going to end up having over shared and then no one's going to want to employ me, like, whatever else. I remember being quite frightened when articles would come out and having to, like.

I'd be reading through them really fast just to Be like, what did I say? What did I say? I hope I didn't say anything bad. Like, it was just anxiety.

And doing advocacy often don't go together, particularly if it's public media advocacy. It just doesn't. And I was compelled to continue, even though it was a real struggle.

Yeah.

And it's really funny because people say, oh, but you look so confident and natural on tv. Like, I remember people saying, oh, my gosh, but on the Today show, you look like. You looked so comfortable, like, you spoke so well.

And I said, well, I've got to be honest, directly after it, I had a panic attack and freaked out for the next five hours.

Yeah.

And then I didn't sleep that night worrying about how it was going to come across, you know, so it was very much that.

And like you said, like, it was so, like, it was like, you know, you're doing Carl and Jackie in the morning, then two days later you were doing this.

And then that night, like, you know, someone from the radio, then in the morning, I had all these people wanting radio or comments for this, for this article or that article. And then, of course, you know, when was actually really brilliant, because some things couldn't have gone better. Like Scott Morrison.

Oh, gosh, he was the PM at the time. And there was this point, so.

Well, basically, actually, before I get to that, I should tell you about Nathan Despot, because I was struggling a lot with the advocacy, and I, you know, I was being.

I. I met people from, you know, the LGBT community who were involved in advocacy in different issues, who were giving me advice that I now know wasn't great only because they didn't understand the issue.

Yeah.

And so I got a Facebook message from someone called Nathan Despot, who I didn't know at the time, but he had been doing.

He'd been running a support group for people of faith, queer people of faith, or, you know, ex faith, whatever, that involved a number of survivors down in Melbourne, in Victoria. And he had been sort of. It was amazing what he'd done with this group.

This group of relatively small group of survivors had spent years kind of analyzing their experiences and, like, deconstructing their experiences and really understanding. I think. Yeah. What did we all go through? What were the common threads? Like, what. What is this phenomenon?

And he was the first person to talk to me about the ideology behind conversion practices. Because till that, up until that point, I was saying that gay conversion therapy, you know, was a practice that should be banned. Yeah.

And changed my tune very quickly after talking to him, because I realized talking to him, I was like, this guy knows what he's talking about. And he said to me, you know, I need you to know that you're. The way you're talking about it isn't right. I mean, he was very nice about it.

The first thing he said was. The first thing he said was, you know, I.

You know, I have to say, like, thank you, because you've managed to do what no one's managed to do yet, which is bring this into. Yeah, you brought it into the light, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

And he said, but now, like, I need you to know that you're doing it wrong. And I was like, oh, my God, all my fears have come true. Like, yeah. You know, but basically, he. He.

We spoke for a long time, and we, over the next weeks, like, really talked a lot. Like, we texted and spoke every day.

Yeah.

And he was basically helping me to deconstruct my experience and to, like, understand the role of this ideology and how that is what actually does the damage and, like, whatever else. And also talking to. About, how can I, in sharing my story, not just be talking about myself, but be talking about all of us?

Because, let's be honest, we don't need another CIS white gay man telling his story without giving a little bit more than that, you know, and so he helped me to do that and to make sure that, you know, that what evolved, I hope, in my advocacy was that it was always with other survivors in mind and wanting to. Wanting people to understand more than just, oh, it's terrible that I went through an exorcism. It's horrible that I. That I felt.

Felt that I had to go to Living Waters. It's, you know, whatever. It's more than that. It's about, you know. You know, how did this start?

This started when I was a child in church hearing messages, you know, and that's true for a lot of us. And so I started to focus on that kind of thing. And so Nathan became this brilliant partner in advocacy for me.

And he wasn't sharing his story publicly, but he was very much behind a lot of. Helping me to prepare a lot for the way that I spoke about conversion practices in the media. He.

We were very distressed at the time because what was happening was the media was like, oh, conversion therapy. This is. This is spicy. You know, everyone's interested, so let's get all the. All the. The. The craziest stories that we can.

And so they started to, like, trauma porn. Oh, my gosh. It was. Yeah, it was. And which is the opposite of what I wanted and the opposite of what we wanted and what most survivors want as well.

Because you know what? It's not representative at all.

No.

And it also misses the point entirely.

So we were concerned because a number of articles were coming out and it didn't matter how many times we spoke to journalists or we talked to them in really nuanced ways or like, whatever else it was like, it would be like conversion therapy can include. And then it would be like electroshock treatment, you know, castration and all this. And I'm like, I'm reading these articles.

I'm like, that's not what we're trying to ban. No, that stuff's already illegal. Like, you can't do that to people. Yeah.

So, like, you can't just strap someone down and, like, start poking them with an electric prod to try and rhythm of gay spirits. Like, that's illegal. That would be assault.

So, you know, it was very frustrating because it was like the media was like, all on this, like, all about these crazy, like, really historic conversion practice stories. You know, finding stories from, you know, the 70s and, you know, which they're important, but they have to.

We have to understand that they're historical.

Yes.

And we have to understand that this is horrific.

We need to acknowledge that that happened, but we need to understand that story in the context of the fact that it's now 50 years later and this is what it looks like now. You know, and so it was really scary because I was like, this is like, this is amazing. We've got the media and we've got politicians and they're.

They're both interested, but the media is telling the politicians that conversion therapy looks like this, this, this, this, and this basically boy erased the movie. Like, you know, that that's what it looks like. And without.

Without giving more, you know, you know, and by the way, you know, residential conversion practices, you know, residential, like conversion therapy places were uncommon.

Yes.

In Australia.

Absolutely.

It's historic. Right. It's not. That's not what most.

Not what it looks like now.

And using these example as examples as, like, this is the definition. This is what it is.

This is what we're trying to ban or what, Sorry, what Chris Chabs and what, you know, these advocates and other survivors want to ban. No, it needs to be far. It's far more complex than that.

Yeah.

So I was distressed.

Nathan was Distressed because it was like, we've got to strike while the iron's hot and the media, the media is giving these politicians the wrong idea. And so we wrote, we decided to write a statement called the soja.

It was originally called the Social Survivor statement but now it's called the Sojai Survivor statement, which stands for Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Change Efforts Survivors. And essentially it was written by. People from brave, which is the group that Nathan had run.

And so, so we, we, we wrote this statement together that laid out this is what conversion practices have looked like in Australia and this is the messaging and ideology behind it. Yeah, this is what causes the harm. And like, sort of, we, it was, we worked very hard on it. It was very nuanced, it was detailed. Detailed.

And like, yeah, it was a beautiful document and we, we made sure that. So we sent it around to other survivors. We sent it round to Nathan's network.

I didn't have a network, so I'm not going to say our network but you know, Nathan had a network of people.

I had been, you know, I'd spoken at like an Amnesty International event and had been talking to them about what we could do and so we sent it to them for endorsement and we got their endorsement. So Amnesty International endorsed it.

Then we got a bunch of endorsements from different people and we released it and sent it to Scott Morrison and about, I want to say 40 or 50 other politicians around the country, including Attorney Generals and whatever else. Yeah, along with, I think it was, I think it was 65,000 signatures of, from this changed or petition by this point.

Yeah, this was in August and sent this along and sort of basically we had listed, this is what survivors want the government to do. Like these are our recommendations.

This is a survivor led recommendations for combating conversion practices in Australia and it was dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And one of those things was legislation. Yeah, there was a whole bunch of other things.

Yeah.

And so back to what I was saying about how, you know, some things you just can't plan but they just work out so perfectly. Sent this thing, this, this out, you know.

And Scott Morrison a few days later was asked about it by a journalist, sort of said, oh, you know, blah, blah. And Scott Morrison's response was, that's not an issue for me. And well, that went nuts. I don't know.

Oh, I do.

Everywhere. I mean even Charlie Pickering even did like a bit on it and I didn't even know.

I just, I was like some, someone called me and said, you're on Charlie Pickering. I was like, what? Turn it on. And it's like I'm there talking about what conversion practices did and like, how. Whatever.

And then they cut to Scott Morrison saying, that's not an issue for me. And, like, them sort of making fun of that. And it was just this unbelievable moment where it was like, wow. Like, that wasn't even planned.

That was just a really stupid response. But the way that it. Like, it. Things like that kept happening. There was another time. Like, there was another. I think it was after that there was some.

I can't remember the event I'd have to look through.

I've got all the, you know, I've got like, a lot of articles and notes and stuff about it that I collected years ago just because I wanted to remember how it happened. But there was a number of things that happened like that where it was like, that was an old goal, you know, like.

And it wasn't through any strategizing by myself or anyone else. It was just. And like, I, I, at the time, and I still do, I put it down to God.

I was like, that was exactly what our campaign needed at the time, you know, and it was so that people could really see, like, you know, come on. Like, this is ridiculous. You know, come on. Yeah. So forget what we originally would.

That's okay.

As you just mentioned that I was going to say throughout all of this and even, like, in the last few years, like, you sort of mentioned that, like, the last few years is really when you've sort of been able to embrace that identity of being a gay Christian. What does your faith in spirituality look like now for you?

It's very different to what it was when I was 15.

Yeah.

I mean, I. I would hope so.

Yes. It's very different. So I don't know.

I've been on a journey of, you know, I think the really sick part about conversion practices and about the ideology and just what it does to people who really absorb it is that really profoundly affected how I see myself and see the world and everything. And Even now, at 40 years old, I've been out of the conversion movement for 16 years.

Yeah.

And still, you know, I'm still. I'm still working at undoing a lot of that ideology.

Yeah.

You know, and the effects of that ideology on the way that.

I think there was a reason at the beginning of this that I said the word recovery because. Because I don't ever feel like, you know, I resonate with that very deeply. And I.

And I think that it's not ever something that we will just magically make.

I, I, I truly believe that this will affect me till the day I die.

Yeah.

And I don't say that to garner sympathy or anything like that.

It's just a reality that I know that that kind of, that kind of ideology being laid down, laying its foundation at, when you're young, if you really believe that and absorb it.

Yeah.

Getting rid of that is like.

When I think back to all of the, you know, the mental health stuff that I've gone through in the anxiety, I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been an anxious person regardless. Yeah.

But no one can tell me that that didn't profoundly affect my, yeah, my ocd, for one, and my, you know, anxiety and all the other things that I've sort of struggled with profoundly. Like, those things were. It, it was like fuel for it, you know. Yeah.

It, I do believe that if I hadn't absorbed that ideology at a young age, that I probably wouldn't have OCD now.

Yeah.

Because most, a lot of people are able to overcome ocd, sort of throughout the teenage years. I was never able to. And I do believe that it's because, because of, you know, my internalized fears and, you know, everything else. Yeah.

So my spirituality now, I, I thank my mum a lot for how I've developed in my faith.

Yeah.

I have never, not at any point in my life have I never not believed in Jesus as God. And, you know, some people will laugh at that, you know, because, you know, why would you believe in a sky fairy?

I've had lots of people say to me, what, why would you believe in something that thinks that you're an abomination or whatever? And I'm like, trying to explain to people that, you know, I can't believe in Jesus.

Like, I, I can't not believe in Jesus, like, any more than I can not believe that the sky's blue.

Yeah.

I just, I just believe it. And I, and I believe that I have a relationship with him and I love him, you know, but, and that's been true for me throughout.

I haven't, I've been angry with him and I've questioned and I've. Whatever, but I've never not believed. And so it's, that's why I kind of thought, felt like, you know, this is not a choice.

I can't change my sexuality, but I also can't change my faith. I believe it with all my heart and soul. So I'm really glad that I have the parents that I do.

Yeah.

Because while they were also fooled by that ideology 30 years ago. They are also very flexible people, and they. I don't think they were ever fully evangelical. They're certainly not now. Yeah, they. They. They.

They go to a Salvation army church, so. Quite traditional, usually.

Yeah.

But. But they're very, very supportive of LGBT people, obviously.

Yeah.

They. Yeah. My mom. My mom stopped believing in hell years ago, and when she told me that, I was like, what, Help. But.

But of course, there's a hell of a. Yeah. This was, like, five years ago. Yeah. So. And that fear of hell was still. This is why I say, like, I. I wasn't.

I feel like I wasn't really fully comfortable being gay till very recently because. Sorry. Being a gay Christian until very recently because, like, I had.

It's almost like I had to deconstruct or, like, I had to challenge this image that I have had of God as this, like, angry God that, like, has to punish. Yeah.

The punisher.

You know, and, like, when I realized that hell doesn't exist, and, like, that was. I mean, that was a journey, too.

Yeah.

But now I. I do not believe in hell.

Yeah.

I do not believe in hell. Um, it actually opened my eyes to the. The gospel, as I believe that it's meant to be.

You know, people throughout my life have always talked about the good news. The good news. And I. I always. Honestly always thought, is it.

Yeah. It's like. It doesn't feel very good.

Good news that 90% of all humanity.

Yeah.

You know, throughout history, ends up in, you know, sizzling forever.

Yeah.

Like, separated from God forever in an eternal punishment.

Yeah.

That's not good news.

No.

And so IND in sort of like, challenging my idea of hell and my. You know, that kind of sparked for me this whole thing of, like, okay, well, maybe I need to challenge how I look at the Bible completely and how I.

Whatever. And so now I'm sort of like.

It's taken a long time, but I'm at a point in my journey with faith where I really, really believe that the good news that the Bible talks about and that Jesus offers and that, you know, that I always wanted to feel joy in but couldn't because I didn't know it was there, is that. Guess what? Everybody makes it.

Yeah.

You know, I believe. Honestly, with all my heart, I believe it. I believe that, you know, the Bible talks about Jesus coming for all of us and that he. That he.

His work of atonement, his sacrifice, whatever it is, it was for all of us. It was for everyone.

And I. I really do believe that regardless of whether you believe in him or not, whether you hate him or not, whether you care or not, I do believe that everybody will be reconciled with God.

Yeah.

After, you know, after whatever that looks like, you know.

So joy in faith, like there. You've been able to find that joy in faith. And has there been that same joyousness in being able to get.

Say that you're gay and like that sort of like queer joy?

Yeah, look, it's. It's been freeing and, you know, I'm not going to paint this picture that everything's fine and dandy because you know what?

I struggle very much with a lot of things that are absolutely the result of going through all of that conversion stuff.

Yeah.

You know, it, it has affected the relationships that I've been able to, like the romantic relationships. I've had sex. It's affected. I mean, so many facets of my life have been impacted by this. And I'm still undoing, trying.

I'm still doing the work to try and repair.

Yeah.

That damage.

And I probably won't repair it all in my lifetime, but I'm really grateful that I have the opportunity to feel free in being queer, being gay and just. Yeah. I, I think in the last few years, for me, it's always going to be about reconciling faith and sexuality. That's my, that's going to be my.

That's my thing.

Yeah.

And the last few years, I've become. I've come closer to that than ever.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think it'll be a continuing journey, you know, but I can only imagine it getting better and better because now that I.

Now that I kind of have accepted that God is not this angry God and that God didn't tell people in the Bible to like, dash babies against rocks and he didn't tell people to go and, you know, slaughter all these people and take the women and the children or whatever. He did not tell them to do that. That is not God.

You know, once I realized, oh, my gosh, I don't have to believe that this God of love and this God that says that he is love, I don't have to try and balance that with this God in the Old Testament that seems so opposite.

Yeah.

You know, I don't have to reconcile those two different beings because one of them is, I believe, a construct of ancient people who were writing about, you know, like. Yep. You know, hey, you know what I said to someone the other day?

You know, I'm sure that the Christian crusaders would also have said that God told them to do a lot of things. You know, don't tell me that. All that stuff in the Old Testament that, you know, God told us to go in and do, you know, like, I. No, sorry. And I.

Sorry. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. And if it doesn't make sense. No, yeah. And.

But beyond that, it's just, you know, I no longer have to try and justify why this loving God is also this other thing, because now I don't believe in that. And it's just so freeing. And it's not like I've just gone, I don't like that. So I'm not going to believe in it. I actually really don't.

I'm not deciding not to believe in it because it's inconvenient. I've just come to a new understanding and I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

If I had known this all along, you know, and I don't think I have all the answers. I don't think that I know everything, but, like, I do believe that. That I know that.

Yeah, yeah.

And that has been. Yeah, that's been the most freeing and healing thing for me in the last few years. Just in that. Trying to reconcile sexuality and faith.

I am going to start wrapping things up because otherwise we will be here until midnight because I could ask many more questions, but I'm not going to.

I want to ask you questions.

But.

And I think that's a nice transition into what is always my last question that I'm going to tweak a little bit, which is to offer some encouragement to people. But I usually just say, what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction or unpacking their religious trauma?

But what would you say to someone who is in the place where you were 20 years ago?

Oh, gosh. It's a bit of a hard question because I'd like to say a lot of things. I don't know that they'd be able. Like, you have to be careful.

But in a perfect world, I'd like to be able to say to them, you are okay, and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. And that includes your sexuality or your gender identity. And there is nothing wrong with you.

You.

God made you to be you, and it's the only way that he intends you to be in this world. And. And he just loves you. Because God is love. He literally, God is love. And so if it's not loving, if it's Fear based. It's not from God. Full stop.

End of. Yeah, literally.

And I love that because I love it. Not for any other reason than I want people to feel like, you know, you sort of said that, like, not giving up, I'm going to derail for a second.

But like, that not giving up your faith didn't feel like a choice, that it just was right.

And the biggest reason that I love the diversity that I like to bring on these shows is because I want people to realize that they don't have to make that choice if they don't want to, that they can keep their faith if they want to, that they are not opposites, that they can't. It's not incompatible. And so I love that for all of the people out there who are grappling in this space.

And sitting in.

The disillusionment and the disorientation of it all and wondering if they have to give up that too.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So I love that.

Can't agree more.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much for joining me.

For an extraordinarily long time.

I'm so grateful.

I. I did tell you at the start, I talk and I talk and I talk and yes, no, I'm the same.

So it's just like always going to happen. But I love it. And people now just get to listen to two episodes of you so excited them. Thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me.

Being so open and vulnerable. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, it's the only way to do an interview, isn't it? It is. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes. As always, you are good. You have always been good and your story matters always.