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HeavenEarth Church Sunday Conversation

Message: In The Beginning...There Was Revenge

Ross Stackhouse: Pastor HeavenEarth Church

This message launches a new series exploring concepts of judgment, justice, and the “end” as depicted in Christian scripture—while challenging conventional perceptions shaped by culture, theology, and even popular media. The conversation focused on re-examining old narratives about judgment and seeking a deeper, more integrated understanding of God’s character, particularly by holding together the portrayal of God in both the Old and New Testaments.

The discussion explored how assumptions about the end times profoundly influence behavior and beliefs in the present. Drawing on astronomical imagery—considering the vastness of the universe and humanity’s place within it—the speaker invited listeners to recognize both our smallness and the grandeur of God’s wisdom, especially with respect to matters considered beyond human comprehension.

A key theme that emerged was the struggle many people have with reconciling God’s love with ideas of wrath or retribution. The episode began with open reflections about feelings invoked by the concept of judgment—fear, uncertainty, and anxiety were common reactions among those who shared. The question was posed: how do beliefs about judgment affect how we approach life here and now? Several points were raised, including the tendency in human nature toward revenge and violence, both in personal attitudes and in the ways these desires are sometimes projected onto God.

Three Takeaway Points

1. Human Limitations and God’s Justice

One concept discussed was the vast difference between human and divine judgment. Listeners were encouraged to accept that ultimate judgment belongs to God, whose perspective and justice are not limited to human understanding or imagination. The episode stressed that much of what Christians assume about the afterlife or judgment stems from sources like Dante’s Inferno, rather than from the biblical narrative itself. This invites a humility and openness to mystery, rather than presumption about what the “end” entails 10:25.

2. The Roots of Violence and Retribution

The discussion explored the biblical story of Cain and Abel as a foundational narrative that reveals humanity’s inclination toward violence and vengeance 14:47. Reflecting on parallel stories of sibling rivalry throughout scripture, the conversation traced how insecurity and envy often evolve into violence—both physical and in the ways people erase each other through resentment and desire for retribution. The episode challenged listeners to recognize how easily these ancient patterns still shape beliefs and actions today, even informing hopes for divine retribution against those perceived as wrongdoers 17:20.

3. Restorative vs. Retributive Justice

A key distinction introduced was between retributive justice (punishing wrongdoing for its own sake) and restorative justice (seeking to renew and heal what is broken). The conversation highlighted how much Christian thinking has been shaped by a desire for retribution—hoping “people get what’s coming to them”—and how this contrasts with the New Testament vision embodied by Jesus, who embodies forgiveness and nonviolence even in the face of injustice 32:24. The episode invited listeners to pursue a faith that seeks restoration rather than vengeance.

In Summary

The message served as both a preview for the upcoming series and a thoughtful meditation on how assumptions about judgment, justice, and God’s character can either perpetuate cycles of violence or inspire deeper trust and transformation. Listeners were urged to bring curiosity, humility, and trust into their engagement with scripture and to measure all understandings by the character of Jesus, not by traditions rooted in fear or the desire for retribution. The journey has just begun, with more to be explored in the coming weeks.

Lord, I just pray that you would help us to be awakened to your presence and to the wisdom that you, you want to give us. Bless our time together. Speak to us in the name of Jesus. Amen. All right, so I know I've done this recently, but I want to do it again because I think it just— I think it communicates something that you can't really do with, with words so much. That right there is a, a real picture from NASA of the— anyone?

Milky Way.

Yes. And I've asked you this before, but I'll do it again. Does anyone want to guess how many stars roughly are in the Milky Way? It could be as low as 100 billion, could be as high as 400 billion. So Petey gets the star, he gets a prize today. Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go. And then, okay, so how many galaxies do you think are in the observable universe? Anybody want to take a guess on that one? So there was a, there was an observation from Hubble Telescope several years ago that put it at maybe a few hundred billion. But then they found there was new evidence that it may indeed be like a few trillion.

So someone do the math real quick. A few trillion times 400 billion. Josh, you got that? Aren't you an engineer? I used to be. Not today. So like, just, just think about that in scale for a minute. Right now you are sitting on one planet that's orbiting one star in one solar system in one galaxy. In the midst of 2 trillion galaxies. Do you feel your brain hurting to comprehend that? I know I do.

The reason I bring that up is because we're about to go into a series where we're going to feel that. We're going to talk about things that, at the end of the day, are God's. They're of God's mind. They belong to God. And so We're really stepping past what our limits are in a way. We're gonna be approaching our limits, and that's what I want to invite you to consider over and over again as we talk about what we're gonna talk about. There's a reason why Jesus says, judge not lest ye be judged. He's not just saying don't be a judgmental jerk to your neighbor.

It's more of a reminder that like, hey, good judgment ultimately belongs to me. I'm the one who works it out in the end. I'm asking you to trust me. Let my Spirit fill you, change you, and let you bear the fruit of it. How it all works out in the end, that's mine. So we're going to be talking— we're starting a series called this right here, Good Judgment: Rethinking the End to Transform How We Act Here and now. We're, we're, we're building on a sermon I did a few weeks ago where I kept talking about how what we assume or think about the be— the beginning, but especially the end, affects greatly how we act here in the middle. So, but when I bring up the word— words like judgment or the end, the end, what are you thinking?

Judgment.

What are you feeling? Or you might even answer, how do you feel about starting this series? Are you like, man, I wish we were talking about something else? Let me hear from you for a minute. Kara?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yep. Awesome. What else? What about you? What are you thinking or feeling? Online too. We want to hear from you. When you consider judgment or the end, what thoughts or feelings do you have? Bridget, go ahead.

Feels scary.

Yeah. Anyone else feel that way a little bit? Yeah, a little bit scary. Scary and uncertain. Yeah. Anybody else? Courtney?

Yeah.

Yes. Yes. No, you're not. You're fine. Uncertain. Am I on the line? Am I on the cut line? Right? I hope I'm going to the good place, which I've never watched that show. I was about to do the big spoiler alert on the show, but I don't think I will, what I heard about it. Am I in the good place or the bad place? That's why we're going to do this series, because that is not God's picture of judgment in the end.

And we're going to talk about like why. How did that become our picture then?

Anxiety.

Hello, Roadrunner. Jim, your presence is no longer here on earth. But so you're thinking about the actual, like, process of dying? Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Anybody else? All right. Well, you'll notice that that road— do you see how the road is kind of stitched together in the image? What I have found, the reason we're doing this series, is that I found for a lot of people, The road of their faith, if you will, is not stitched together. Here's what I mean by that.

People are trying to hold together this concept that God is love, and they're trying to hold together like who Jesus is, and then like what they've heard or they assume or think about like God's sort of wrath or judgment. They're trying to hold together What? That coffee cup is like— people are watching it like, will it spill over? Yes, that's what we're feeling about judgment. It's like teetering on the edge. They're trying to hold together the God of the New Testament and then the God of the Old Testament. You know what I want to help you do in this series is integrate it, like have one faith that fits a view of the end that reflects God's character through and through in the Bible and ultimately reflects the heart of Jesus. Like, so here's some questions that I thought of that I think of us addressing together in this series. We'll start here. Oh, you can't read that very well at all.

But here's a question that we're really thinking about through for 6, 7 weeks. How did— how does all— how do all things get made right in the end? This question is prominent throughout the entire body of Scripture. But also, how did it end up this way? How did we get where we are? How does it get made right in the end? That's a question of— I'm going to define some terms for you here. That's a justice question. We're going to be talking about 2 terms. Don't fall asleep on me, but we got to define them. Judgment, if you think about it, we've said this in that sermon ago, judgment Is ultimately this truth that everything is coming to the light. God will bring everything to the light.

This is a scripture. This is an idea that gets brought up a lot, like every hidden motive, every thought, every intention, every deed will be brought into the light to be seen for what it actually is.

Woo!

How you feel about that? Right? There's the scary part. Oh my God, it's all going to come under the microscope. And then I'm— then Jesus is going to say, go to the left. But everything comes to the light so that God can restore and renew everything. That's justice. Justice asks, how does everything— how do the wrongs get made right? So simply think about it as a judge. A judge is kind of— he's heard the judgment from the jury. The jury has convicted or not.

And then the judge is, is gonna spell out, well, what's next. And that's exactly why we struggle with even the, the phrase good judgment. It probably feels like a bit of a, an oxymoron, right? Because we experience so much bad judgment. I was just talking about it with somebody at my house, and we were talking about how simply— I wish this weren't true. I am friends with judges in our county. They— we have some of the best judges, I swear. I'm not saying this about them, but overall, this is just true. It's still a truism.

What do you think if 2 people commit the same felony? One has money, one does not have money. Will their sentence be the same? That's still very much a thing, guys, honestly. It really is, because I've seen it. I've seen it play out. It's not just like a conspiracy theory. It happens. That's why when we hear the phrase good judgment, we're like, what? That's why actually here I want to say this to you today. Uh, not that.

That right here. Nope. No, no, no, I'm still not there. What's going on, Ross? There. This is, this is why I showed you the Milky Way stuff. The thing I want you to consider for this whole series, again, you right now, you all are going to live maybe 74-ish years. What's the— women more than men. Congratulations.

You're smarter. Courtney says you're smarter. I'm fine with that. My wife runs our family. I mean, really.

She is watching.

She is watching. Hi, darling.

It's true.

You're going to live maybe several decades here on this one planet that's in this one solar system orbiting one star in a galaxy with 100 billion stars amongst 2 trillion galaxies. You are small. God is not. We are made in God's image. God is not made in ours. We need to drink that in. We are made in God's image. God is not made in ours.

The God who said, let there be light, and there was a Big Bang and galaxies started to form, is the one who owns judgment and justice in the end. And it is not like some judge who gives different sentences to people based on who has money and who doesn't. God's good judgment is not limited by our imagination, logic, theology, or doctrines. Thank God. And God's good judgment is not bound by what we can make sense of or imagine about God's judgment. Sometimes this whole system of like heaven or hell, doesn't it feel like it's invented by human beings? It's because it is. It's based way more— I'm jumping the gun on future sermons— it's based way more on books like— you ever heard the book Dante's Inferno? So much of Christian theology that you experience in our neck of the woods Is based off of stuff like that. And that's what we're going to look at in this series.

God's justice is not limited to the size of what we can imagine or discern about God's judgment. Can I get an amen? Like, it's beyond us and it is good. Other questions for this series: how do I reconcile the God of the Old Testament with Jesus in the New Testament? This speaks to how we regard the nature and authority of Scripture. Perhaps most important is some of you are asking, why the heck do I care? What does this matter for me right here, right now? We're going to talk about that. Oh, there's a 1.4 point. What is good for me to believe about the end? How do I balance what I can know with what I have to give up to mystery? That is so important. We are not going to be the church where I stand up here and go, now let me tell you the doctrine of what is correct, what is orthodoxy. If you do not believe this, you're a heretic and you are outside Of God's glory.

That's not us. Because what I tell you, we're pressing up against the limits of what we can know. From the very beginning, God said to those first human beings in that Hebrew poetry in Genesis, God said, you can eat of any tree you want in this garden. There are 2 trees in the middle. You can even eat from one of them. One's the tree of life. Have as much of it as you want. There's one tree that belongs to me.

Don't eat of that. And what's that tree? The knowledge of good and evil. I'm the one who decides what is what in the end. I will help you know what good is, but I'm the one who oversees how good and evil gets shown for what it is and dealt with. That's mine. What do afterlife, heaven, hell have to do with all this? What do I do when confronted with the most common expressions of Christianity in our neck of the woods? So we're going to talk about some things, and like Kara said, even We might talk about some things in here and then you, and then you go encounter some other expressions of Christianity. You're like, now wait a minute, I thought I felt pretty good about what we talked about at Heaven and Earth. Now I go out here and I'm not so sure.

We're going to talk about that too. All right, are you ready to go? That was all just a preview. You feel good about doing this series, or are you still like, I wish we were talking about something else? I think you'll be glad. I do. But here's where we got to start. We're not even going to talk about the end at all today. Dang, you just told me we're going to talk about all that stuff. Now we're not? We got to go back to the beginning.

Here's why. We got to talk about a brother who murdered his brother in cold blood. Some of you are like, oh, Ross, I know this story. We don't need to talk about that story. The story of Cain. And if you don't know that and you're new to church, God bless you. I wish I could hear that story for the first time. I wish I could.

Why do we need to talk about that story, Ross? That's at the beginning. We're talking about like the end. Here's why. When I have premarital conversations with people, week session 1 is always about this family of origin. And I say to folks, it's not a matter of If you are deeply influenced by your family of origin, it's a matter of how. So some of you can appreciate that, like, maybe you argue just like your mother. Anybody do that? Or you— Your tendency— you have a win-lose tendency just like your father. Or when you get into an argument, you shrink back.

Because of maybe some trauma that you had with your family of origin, or you're competitive or combative because of the family trauma you had. We can appreciate that. Am I right? What we can't as much appreciate or feel is how the way we argue or don't argue is very much influenced by our great-great-great-great-grandparents. We don't really feel that. But if I just— if I went to your family tree and just traced some stories back, you would see it clear as day. See it clear as day. The way my Iva, her affect will, will be greatly informed by her great-great-grandmother, whose name is Iva, whose name was Iva, without a doubt. And if, if These people in the Old Testament are, in a sense, our spiritual ancestors.

We better pay attention to what they are up to. Because here's what I, I told— the title of the sermon for today is In the Beginning There Was Violence. In the beginning there was vengeance. And here's what I want you to consider today. Oh boy, you're gonna walk— this isn't fair. No, it's not true of me, Ross. What I'm asking you to consider today is that we are more prone to violence and revenge in our beliefs, thinking, and practices than we'd probably like to admit. We are violent.

We like revenge. I grew up watching with my dad. Man, I come into the living room sometimes and I look to the TV and I'm like, oh man, because there Clint Eastwood would be. We'd be watching some spaghetti western or something like Two Mules for Sister Sarah. Anybody Clint Eastwood fan? You know, John Wayne. We love Clint Eastwood and John Wayne. Now some of you are like, who the heck is that? But these guys, man, we love these Westerns or movies like where the main character— we love this arc, we love it— the main character is like betrayed or hurt or something happens to them. Oh, like Liam Neeson in Taken.

I have a certain set of skills. And we loved that, we loved it. He goes and gets revenge and shows them who's boss.

Right?

Like, we, we, we're more okay with revenge and justice than we'd probably like to say. And it started long, long, long ago, but continues to this very day. And the reason that matters is for some Christians in their belief, we actually wanted the God of retribution. We actually want some vengeance. We want some people to get what's coming to them. Am I wrong? Has anybody in here ever wanted someone in their life to get what's coming to them? Anybody? Can every single one of you raise your hand? At some point you did. At the very least, you were like, man, it's going to be awesome when that person gets exposed. Man, I'm not going to do it, but man, I can't wait to say I told you so.

And it goes back to this, this story, like, in, in the Bible. We need to think about this.

If we're—

the reason I'm saying this, if we think about the end, it is very human, guys. It's very human. You better believe there's a few people in my life that I'm like, I hope they get what's coming to them, man, because they hurt me. Religious people hurt me. And And I was like, man, I, I hope he gets what's coming to him. It's very human. And you know what? It also ate me alive. It didn't make me heal.

That person was still keeping me in a prison. Actually, reverse that— I was keeping me in a prison. But I wanted that retribution, man. I want it because that's what's going to make me feel better. When the Bible— the Bible has this theme throughout. I gotta, I gotta Make a connection, then we'll just look through the story real quick and then be done for today. Are you with me? You good? Well, in the Bible, there are always stories of brothers, often 2 brothers. And when you know there's going to be a story of brothers, you can almost always guess this: one brother or the brothers are going to greatly wrong another brother.

And almost always, It's out of insecurity and envy. Almost always one brother or brothers greatly harm or betray or take something from a brother that rightly belongs to him, and they do it out of insecurity and envy. And then the response is violence. So, for example, let's go to there. Jacob had a bunch of sons. Those sons became the tribes of Israel. We're not talking about the modern nation-state of Israel, which was formed in 1948. Is that right? The tribes of Israel are a historic different thing.

Okay. Someone just asked me recently, don't get lost on this, come back to me. But someone's like, do you support Israel? I'm like, well, what Israel are you talking about? Those are 2 very different things. Okay. That Jacob had some sons whose— those were the tribes of Israel, where there was one brother whose name was Joseph. And just like his mommy, Rachel, Jacob played favorites. And who was his favorite? He kind of favored Joseph, maybe Benjamin too. He cursed his other sons on his deathbed.

Some of them cursed him, blessed others, cursed some. Isn't that lovely? Joseph was this dreamer, visionary. He got this cool coat. really cool coat, and his brothers were like, I hate that guy. All envy is sourced in insecurity and shame, pretty much. So they're envious, and what do they do? Envy and violence are connected. What do they do? What do they want to do to him? Anyone know?

They want to kill him.

They want to kill him. And then one nice brother— he's the nice brother He's like, hey, actually, let's just sell him into slavery. And they do. They do. Uh, the stories happen throughout. Brother gets something. There's something about envy and violence that go together. And you know what it is? They both erase the person.

You erase the person. So think about it. Dave has an F-150.

Okay.

Now, this isn't very serious, but like, say hypothetically, this actually has not happened, Dave. I have complimented you on your truck. I would like an F-150 someday. But let's say hypothetically, I'm like, God, I want that truck. I wish I had a truck like that. And that's all I think about. Well, I don't really— I'm not really thinking about Dave so much anymore. I'm thinking about Dave's stuff.

I've erased Dave. Dave is gone. Violence is like that too. If I want someone to get retribution, if I want to take revenge on someone, I've erased them as a person. I've just made them some object of my hatred or anger. I've erased them. I think they're having a blast back there today. So I want you to think about as we read this story, watch, watch what happens.

We're going to walk through it real quick. I think there it is. Now the man knew his wife that The man here is Adam, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have produced a man with the help of the Lord." Cain, when you see in the Bible, a person's name reflects like that meaning. Cain means like to have been produced or something like that. Next, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground. And Cain a tiller of the ground. Shepherds are always getting mistreated.

So again, the Bible has patterns. There's a set of brothers. Jesse's boys, not Jesse's girl. Jesse's boys. I wish that I had Jessie's Girl. The brothers are the, the older brothers of Jesse's boys. There's a guy named Samuel who comes along, and Samuel's supposed to anoint a king. There's a story in the Bible about like Samuel, prophet, supposed to go anoint a king.

He sees all the big buff older brothers and he's like, gotta be one of those guys. Good looking, buff. Tall. There's this little runt named David who's a shepherd, and God says, it's that one. I don't look at appearances, but I look at the heart. Anoint him. How do the older brothers feel about that? How do they treat him when David comes out to the battlefield and there's big bad Goliath over there? His brother's like, what the heck are you doing here, runt? Get out of here! And David's like, I'll kill him because I got God. Here we got a shepherd, Abel, and then there's a farmer Right from the— have you ever looked at someone else and said, God, I wish I had a job like them? I wish I had purpose like they have in their job.

I wish I had status like they get from their job. I wish I had their salary. Right from the bat, when you see this, you're probably supposed to imagine that Cain the farmer might go, I wish I were a shepherd. Maybe. And so then in the course of time— Oh no, where are we going? I'm gonna jump ahead. Nope, not that one. There we go. Good thing kids are having a blast back there.

Love that. In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel, for his part, brought of the firstlings of his flock, their fat portions. You're like, this is a weird story. Well, one day people will be like, it's weird that people walk around with little computers in their hands. This is from way long ago. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering But for Cain and his offering, he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. Really quick, we don't have a lot of time, we're at 10:32, but how do you feel about those 2 verses? I want to hear your real thoughts.

Don't play it, don't, don't fake it. Let's go back. Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel for his part brought his. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering, he had no regard. So Cain was very angry and his countenance fell. Let's also add this one in. The Lord said to Cain, why are you angry and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? How do you feel about those verses? Jen, go ahead.

I wonder why one's acceptable and one's not.

What is it with those offerings? One's acceptable, one's not. Debbie, go ahead.

I think that happens to the animal sacrifices.

Okay, I want to lift this up. A great starting place if you're reading this very confusing thing that we call the Bible If we're really confused, a great starting place is maybe there's more to the story I don't know yet. There is always something more to the story that I don't know yet. We— even if that— if we got nothing else when we read but that, we can do that. Bridget, go ahead. This is a great question.

Wow.

I'm deciding whether I want to go on a quick rabbit trail and come back. Okay, okay. But actually, remember, this was in one of the questions that we brought up, the nature of Scripture, the Old Testament and New. They're very different, very different. In the Old Testament, especially in the beginning, what you'll notice is God very much looking like a human being. So for example, in Genesis, When the humans do their thing, God's like walking around the garden. God's walking around the garden like, where are you? Right? Same thing here. God's very much a human.

And part of what we're doing is it is okay for us to ask— stay with me here. Some of you be like, whoa, that's too heavy, that's too much. It is good for us to ask here, like we can pause and ask God Help me to understand what's going on here. Is this really you? Is this really like who you are? Some of you are like, whoa, what are you saying? Like, there might be parts in the Bible where someone says God says and it's not actually God? Here's my point. This is a great way we're taking— we're on the rabbit trail still. If we don't know what to make of God, or something is weird about how God is characterized, 2 things we can do. We can ask, what else is going on in this passage? This little passage right here, what's going on? Is there more I can understand from this passage? We can get bigger. Is there something else in the Bible that sheds light on this passage? But biggest thing we can do is this.

For us here at Heaven and Earth, the ultimate standard for our understanding of God's character Is— you want to take a guess? Jesus. If we read something in the Old Testament that's funky and we're like, I don't know what to do about that, if we got nothing else, look to Jesus and ask, does my conclusion about God from this passage fit that one?

Fit him?

Some of you are like, how does this work with Bridget's question? You answered a question she did not ask. Here's why I say it. Like, sometimes in moments like this, God— it, it's a little bit bizarre. That's how the Old Testament is written. It's written as this poetry at times. There are different genres in the Bible, and we don't read them all or approach them exactly the same way. So like, here, is God— does God really show up and like sit at your table and say like, Hey, thanks for your offering today, Bridget. Well, maybe Jesus shows up in the flesh.

But like, what I'm saying is part of these sort of bizarre qualities of God that come out of the Old Testament, it's okay for us to go, that is weird. What do I make of that? We can pause and say that out loud. We don't have to go from this one verse, that's exactly how God is. We can say, wait a minute, I'm going to pause and ask more questions. I'm going to be curious. I'm going to ask God for help, and I'm also going to look to Jesus to make my ultimate conclusion. We're off the rabbit trail now. We can talk more about it later.

Oh, go ahead.

More.

Go on. Yeah, there it is. See it? Really? Really? There it is. It's inviting us. Do you see what you just did though? You just read the Bible wonderfully. That's how you do it. If something comes up and you're like, wait a minute, hold on. Is that how God really works? It's working.

Because now, now watch what happens. If I feel that way, I can pause and go, God, I have no idea what to make of this passage. Will you help me understand? Now the Bible has drawn me closer to God. I don't just skim the surface. When I get curious, I ask God. Or when it's like, wait a minute, this guy just killed his brother over offerings. Of course, that's not all it's about. You know what I think? I think Cain hated his brother for a long, long time.

I think he had insecurity and shame building up in his life, and he wanted to make his own justice. He wanted to issue his own judgment, summary judgment, out in the field and club him over the head with a rock.. By the way, if your brother ever goes, hey, let's go out to the field. Ask some clarifying questions. What are we going to do in said field? Why do you have that stone in your hand? The Bible is funny a lot of the time. It's very much a part of Jewish culture, is to add humor and levity into stories. So he kills his brother. Here's the point: that's our spiritual ancestor right there.

That's right.

There is not— it's not an accident when people built their theology of the end, they wanted to make their own justice. And there's a reason why many beliefs about the end look more like a person taking their own justice into their hands. So all I just want to say to you today is like, we like Clint Eastwood. Even if you think you're like, I don't know Clint Eastwood, how could I like him? We like the story where the vigilante comes and kills everybody for justice. We want deep down— Ross, that's not true of me. There's part of us deep down that wants some people to go to hell. That isn't true of me, Ross. I love everyone.

Not true. Not true if you're honest. So what I want us to pay attention to in the coming weeks is there's going to be a part of us that actually deep down we want some violence, we want some retribution. And where I'm going to introduce you to 2 terms and then turn it over to you to end today. What we're going to differentiate between— big words now, I'm teaching you some big, big seminary words. Are you cool? You with me? We're going to make a difference between 2 things. Retribution, people like— I want people to get a sentence that I want to get— I want them to get what's coming to them. Or anyone knows what's on this side? Restoration.

A lot of Christian beliefs have been on this side, what's called— here we go, big words, you ready? Retributive justice. So that would be— oh, I'm going to get political for a minute. Oh, I wish you wouldn't do that, Ross. Church isn't political. Yeah, right. Go read Jesus for 5 minutes. So I heard that our Secretary of Defense wants to livestream a dude getting killed by a firing squad. He killed a bunch of people.

How does that help, livestreaming it? What's that going to do? Is that going to— is it going to restore things? Some people tune into that because they love violence and they like vengeance. Our Lord and And I'm ending here, I promise you. Our Lord refused violence. When one of his followers took out a sword and cut off somebody's ear when he was getting arrested, he said, put that sword away. Those who live by the sword die by it. And Jesus was the one who was executed publicly. Now, in some way, his public execution is what saves us. But it is 10:43.

You got a couple minutes for comments today. We're just introducing the series. Go ahead, Jen.

Yeah, we kind of talked about this before. I had said that the man who had harmed my family, that I wanted to see him punished.

That what you just described is how— is we want to be aligned with Jesus. That's his view of judgment. Jesus is like, in the end, there won't be any questions or bickering about what was evil and what wasn't. It will be in the light, and we will know What we did as good and evil, and they will too. It will be brought to the light. Everything gets brought to the light. Other comments, questions? Go ahead, PT.

When we had the first moon landing—

Yeah.

There were all these Christian groups back then, and they asked, why don't we all have a man?

Interesting. Yeah, maybe some envy. Jill, yeah, that's interesting. Other comments? Bridget, you're back. Yeah, we're gonna have to— we're gonna have to park that one and come back to it because it's a long story. Long story short, if you look at a lot of Old Testament passage, it actually looks like God loves violence, God likes vengeance. And then you get to the New Testament Jesus is so antiviolent that he allows himself to be killed by crucifixion and says, Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they do. Again, he says, put your sword away.

Jesus is very anti-violent. And so it's like, wait a minute, how do we bring those together? We're going to talk about that in this series. How do we reconcile what looks like a God who loves violence over here and a God who is anti-violent over here? Yeah, because it has a lot to do with judgment and justice. What else? Anyone? Go ahead, Mandy. Why is there this era where God is in the flesh walking amongst us and we're getting this revelation and we're writing it in books and then we read about it and now it's like, nope, that's over now? Great question. I'm going to hold on to that and think about it. Because we're out of time and that one's also a very long one. Anyone else before we go? Ralph, go ahead.

When I read that, I can know that the story starts—

That's why also why we get together in community and read it too, because when we come together and say like, here's how I see it, here's how I see it, with the Holy Spirit in the room, we might actually emerge with something that's truthful and that we can hang on to. Anybody else? Go ahead, Therese. Countenance fell. Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, many people have interpreted this way. There's something going on in Cain's heart that going into this, like, he was like, all right, here's my offering. And Abel's like, God, hey, this is my offering from my heart.

Right. All right.

Hey, we've started the journey. I hope you'll come back. I hope you'll be like, this, this series sucks. I don't want to come back. We're going to keep building on this. We have to go back to the foundations and build from there. And then we're going to work our way to very specific conversations about the end, about Jesus, about afterlife. And by the end, you'll be like, I think we've connected some dots.

All right. Hi, pumpkin. Hey, will you stand with me? We're just going to sing a very short, very short part of Come Thou Fount, and then that'll be it for today. So we're just going to sing through a little bit of this.

And, uh, I just—

I think what Ralph kind of just said is really important. And we started out with this idea when we started the sermon, like, at the end of the day, I hope we can make our way back to just saying, like, God, I don't know, but I trust you. I don't know how to make sense of this, but I trust you, and I need you to help me understand. I need you to— Tune my heart. Yes, I need you to tune my heart. All right, so sing this with me, pray it with me as we start this series, Inform a Better Judgment. Come thou fount of every blessing, to my heart to sing thy grace. Streams of mercy never ceasing, call for songs of loudest praise.

Teach me some melodious sonnet, sung by flaming tongues above. I praise the mountain, fixed upon it, mount of God's unchanging love. So take this with you today, that even though it may be confusing when you read the scriptures, it may seem like God is morphing, but really at the heart of it, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And God's love is steadfast, and you are surrounded by it. Even though it may feel like you're surrounded, you are surrounded by God's love. Take that with you this week. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.