Our culture is obsessed with staying young and living for as long as possible, doing everything we can to slow down ageing and cheat death. Yet, despite our best efforts, we all face physical decline with age. So, what does it mean to let go of old health and fitness habits and establish new, age-appropriate ones? How can we exercise smarter, not harder?

In this episode, Daniel Sih and Matt Bain will guide us in rethinking our health and fitness strategies for mid-life. They’ll provide practical advice to help us make space for a healthier lifestyle as we navigate life’s inevitable resets.

Resources:

GET A FREE SUMMARY OF SEASON 2 with print-ready activities

 10% OFF SAGA BLOOD FLOW RESTRICTED TRAINING CUFFS

Try out WATER BASKETBALL in Hobart, Tasmania

Discover more:

SPACEMAKERS WEBSITE

YOUTUBE

RAISING TECH HEALTHY HUMANS

This season is made possible with support from our sponsors: Bulk Nutrients

This podcast is recorded and produced by Production Farm Studios

Mentioned in this episode:

BULK NUTRIENTS (5% discount)

A special thank you to our major sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45 at bulknutrients.com.au. Just enter the code ‘spacemakers.’

Bulk Nutrients

[00:00:29] DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor. Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45. At bulk nutrients.com au just enter the code space makers,

[00:00:48] DANIEL: Hey, welcome back everyone to the Space Makers, a podcast to help you think clearly about how to make space in your life for what truly matters. And I'm here with my good friend and fellow space maker who drives [00:01:00] cars through fences, Matt Bain. Welcome. Thanks. So today we are going to talk about health and fitness and how our health and fitness goals are.

[00:01:29] DANIEL: And that is definitely true for health and fitness. So I was at the gym, Just the other day. Oh, nice. And I, Matt's very kind of you, and I was, I was doing some bicep curls or something like that. Yeah. We call them vanity curls. Vanity curls. I was doing vanity curls and next to me was this, you know, clearly older guy.

[00:02:08] DANIEL: Whoa. And I'm like, how old are you? And he said, I'm 92 years old, nearly 93. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, good on you, mate. That is impressive. I hope that if I make it to 92, I will be there. at the gym, you know, exercising regularly. And it made me wonder, you know, what was going on in this guy's 40s and 50s in his midlife squeeze in terms of his beliefs and his goals and the way he approached fitness and exercise to actually allow him to be standing before me, you know, lifting relatively heavy weights, certainly for that age at 92.

[00:02:57] DANIEL: And so I certainly, uh, in this [00:03:00] area feel like I'm drawing on experience and knowledge from many different fields. I worked in musculoskeletal rehab, I've worked with amputees, I've worked with psychological physiotherapy health, I've done geriatric health, so I get to draw on a few different ideas and we'll bring in our own personal stories and maybe some of our own philosophies into this episode and hopefully give people practical tools to make space for a healthy midlife reset.

[00:03:46] MATT: with the good news.

[00:03:50] DANIEL: Yeah, that's a half full perspective on it. That's right. But seriously, we are in a culture which kind of idolizes being young. There's this kind of obsession in our culture about staying young. [00:04:00] We don't have a culture where let's say elders are really respected, you know, like a lot of ancient cultures or actually a lot of cultures that just aren't Western cultures where, you know, older people come with respect and that sense of wisdom and where you look up to kind of people as they're older.

[00:04:40] DANIEL: 30. Oh, man. So, like,

[00:04:45] DANIEL: gains very quickly. Wow. So, you know, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle, is inevitable, but you can obviously change that with exercise and weight training, but that's just one area that demonstrates that there is a long, slow grind to losing [00:05:00] muscle, to losing agility.

[00:05:22] DANIEL: So, you know, exercise, fitness, good diet, sleep is good at all. any age. But it gets tougher, as you know, as we get older. Yeah. It gets harder to maintain what we have, and even as we try to maintain it, eventually, we will lose our health and our strength. And it can be hard to change the way we approach health and the way we approach our own perception of our bodies and our own perception of our abilities throughout that midlife reset and

[00:05:52] MATT: Well, I mean, to some degree it's hard not to view that acceptance as being tied up with me having to face my own mortality. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:17] DANIEL: We want it to lead to some types of changes in behavior and ideally we would love people to finish this 10 part. I, I've actually implemented something that has helped me to either navigate my 20s and 30s better, or, you know, 40s and 50s, or even beyond to actually make a difference in your life, to help you make space.

[00:06:56] MATT: Does it inspire me? Does it encourage me? Or does it deplete me? And the second axis [00:07:00] was that of frequency. So how often or how, um, infrequently do I see this particular person?

[00:07:14] DANIEL: So therefore it's worth mapping out our current state. In order to work out what might our future state

[00:07:30] MATT: Yeah.

[00:07:46] DANIEL: And more importantly, where would I like those relationships to be? I do like your idea of actually having a regular weekly catch up or monthly catch up, I think, with a bunch of guys.

[00:07:58] DANIEL: We actually start this [00:08:00] weekend. Okay. Good. I'm glad I was invited. Thanks, Matt. I feel like we get a fair bit of one

[00:08:07] DANIEL: Doesn't count when thousands of people are listening. Um, no, but that sounds great. So you've put in a place, you've put

[00:08:21] MATT: So they've all got history, but again, life has gotten busy with, I think it'd be fair to say all got caught up in that current. And so there's very little regular occasions where all those people would kind of be brought together. So I had to make an intentional, but again, like they

[00:08:34] DANIEL: Yes. That's good. So I can see, you know, that friendship quadrant for you. All your friends are moving to the right because you see more frequently and I'm being left behind. Thanks very much.

[00:09:01] MATT: So this little doozy came from 2014, from the Atlantic magazine, and it was penned by a guy called Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. So he's an oncologist, he's a bioethicist, and I think at the time he must have been mid to late 50s.

[00:09:38] MATT: He's

[00:09:40] MATT: topping ourselves. Yeah, that's right. And he's planning on taking that route when he says, again, he hopes to die at 75. He's got this idea, right? That by 75, most of us, if we've had like a halfway decent chance at life, would have had lived a full life. Well, like what he calls a full life by the age of 75.

[00:10:15] MATT: And if I take the right supplements, have like, you know, if I stick to the Mediterranean diet consistently enough, if I know the right doctors who can throw me the right pharmaceuticals, and then I can live for 85, 95. And he said, like, his big point is that of course, In terms of lifespan that is getting, you know, for most countries, more and more and more kind of pushed out.

[00:10:51] MATT: Yeah. But that just means that, you know, in some ways your inevitable death. Yeah, okay. And so you're

[00:11:16] DANIEL: So look, I'm not sure whether I agree with this philosophy all up, but it did stimulate conversation certainly between you and I, particularly around this idea that like, how do we approach health as we get older? What is the goal of health? Is it long life or is it health span? And what might it look like to, I suppose, set yourself up in that second transition of life, which is we're talking about the midlife squeeze.

[00:11:44] MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Well, to go back to, to his experience, I know at the time of the article, he had just climbed Kilimanjaro with his two sons and he talked about being a grandparent and he said, having this kind of set point in your mind of 75 makes you kind of confront.

[00:12:23] MATT: grandparent and contemplate what the purpose of your life is.

[00:12:40] DANIEL: Yeah. And so we need to kind of somehow wrestle with the zooming in and zooming out, which we talked about in episode one, that on the one hand, we have to acknowledge the reality of our circumstance and how busy we are for both health, friendships, relationships, money, whatever area we're talking about.

[00:13:10] DANIEL: Yeah. That's good. Now, when you and I were talking about health as one of the topics around the idea that life changes and our habits must change as we hit the midlife slump, uh, we were wrestling with do we tackle health in a holistic sense, obviously covering exercise, nutrition, sleep, mental health, like there's a whole lot of areas that encompass health, but given my background as a physio and the fact that we need to time box it somehow, we're going to focus predominantly on physical exercise.

[00:13:57] DANIEL: We're a fan of that book, and he was talking with Tim [00:14:00] Ferriss, and he just had a quick kind of throwaway line, and it really stood out to me, and it was like, oh, that's, that's my philosophy, and it actually clarifies my philosophy of exercise and he basically said the goal of exercise in your 50s is to be active in your 80s which is very similar to that idea of you know how do I become like this 90 year old who's still at the gym who clearly has enough physical activity to at least be active and do things in his life and I actually really like that idea.

[00:14:54] DANIEL: I'm not interested in living as long as I can, but at least I would like to be active for the [00:15:00] life that I have so I can invest in my grandkids. Yeah,

[00:15:20] MATT: And they say, well, like, what do you want to exercise for? And he goes, I want to look good naked. That's really my main goal. Once you got to the heart of it. Yeah. Well, let's talk about being there for your grandkids and blah, blah, blah, but that's interesting. Right. As in, again, so I think again, like there's that perspective of again, being in midlife and trying to be realistic and know that your body and all these.

[00:16:00] DANIEL: Absolutely. So we're going to talk about some principles for how you might approach health and fitness differently in your midlife slump. But look, we want to acknowledge at first that Gosh, health is such a personal thing, and it can be a painful thing for so many people. Um, yeah, and there's such a big spectrum of even the people we know in our lives.

[00:16:36] DANIEL: Yeah, well

[00:16:40] DANIEL: it. You just roll the dice and you didn't get a choice. There's no judgment here and there's no one right way to approach health and fitness. So if health is a battle for you, then I still think the principles we're going to share.

[00:17:07] DANIEL: And then they hit their midlife slump and they just work harder and faster and spend more money to try to get better. You've seen that as well, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:16] DANIEL: of

[00:17:26] MATT: And, or again, particularly if you've got the connections and the money, then there are all these pharmaceutical options available to you that they're going to enhance these, but it's in, it's probably not so much about functionality and it's not about being healthy. Preparing to be more healthy for later on in life.

[00:17:43] DANIEL: And avoiding the realities that you're actually just getting old and have to do things differently. Yes. That's it. So with that in mind, let's look at three principles that we think have been helpful for us to help us maybe reset how we approach health later in life.

[00:18:02] DANIEL: First principle. And again, this is, I know this is value laden, but I just think that it's super important to prioritize your health. And I really think about, you know, Confucius wrote a quote, a healthy man wants a thousand things, a sick man only wants one. And basically the idea that when you're healthy, you dream about lots of stuff.

[00:18:41] DANIEL: You're not thinking about everything else. We want to zoom out a little bit and think actually, if that's true, how do we make sure we don't just wait until we're in a health crisis? to actually prioritize our health. Go to the dentist and get your checkups. Go to the doctor when you need to. You know, don't be so stoic that you wait until you're literally falling apart that you actually kind of get a health check.[00:19:00]

[00:19:16] DANIEL: You can get away with stuff when you're 20 and it doesn't matter. You can drink a lot and start late and you turn up fine the next day.

[00:19:52] MATT: I literally stayed up all night and worked. But seriously, I suffered like I'd never suffered before for the following days. And you see that people can still [00:20:00] lift as much as they used to at our age, or they can run marathons. But then the recovery is where it starts to hit you square in the face. You're not the same beast as you were when you were younger.

[00:20:21] DANIEL: Absolutely. Yeah. And even when you give that example of being young, right?

[00:20:43] DANIEL: So it's the same type of idea. It's very hard as humans to think about the future and allow it to change your life. Yeah, that's right. So maybe that's the good news. When you hit midlife, it becomes the gap between the future and the present becomes closer. Yes. And you feel something [00:21:00] different. Yes. And therefore you get that maybe crisis, which is a good thing.

[00:21:08] MATT: it a priority. And maybe it'll provide motivation to have to. Yeah. Usually inevitably spend more time or money on your health. Yeah, sure. That makes sense.

[00:21:20] DANIEL: Yeah. And that it does require a certain level of education and wealth to be able to truly prioritize your health.

[00:21:46] MATT: So I went for seven days each time on 2 a day. And you couldn't get a dentist checkup. Right. That was like, you know, I really sucked. It turns out. You can't afford coffee on 2 a day. You can afford tea. You can afford sugar. You can't afford [00:22:00] fresh veg. Yeah, exactly. So I was getting by, it was easy to eat, but it was easy to eat poorly.

[00:22:13] DANIEL: want to acknowledge that, but also probably links in with the money episode, which we'll talk about later, that actually how you set yourself up when you're younger might also open up your options when you're older.

[00:22:41] DANIEL: But I was really trying to get into a gym habit because I have a fast metabolism. I find it hard to maintain muscle mass and I lose weight really quickly, especially if I'm sick, which might sound great. You know, Hey, I don't put on weight and there's benefits to that, but actually it's not so good for me health.

[00:23:21] DANIEL: And then basically James Clear gave an example where he says never miss a workout. Don't for, the win is not whether you can lift X amount of kilos. The win is that you turned up four or five times a week and that you tick it off. using a habit tracker week, after week, after week, uh, and even if you turn up and don't do any more than just walk on the treadmill for 10 minutes, or something that you find fairly simple, you've still ticked off that you went to the gym.

[00:24:07] DANIEL: But in reality, after I've exercised for 10 minutes, then I typically want to do the roller and then I typically want to start to do my weights routine and I typically actually want to stay longer than I. Can because I'm into it motivation

[00:24:20] DANIEL: Yeah, and there have been two or three occasions where I really really didn't feel like it I walked on the treadmill and I thought I'll stop this.

[00:24:33] MATT: man, like yeah, so I don't want to be that guy who does jiu jitsu who then ends up talking about jiu jitsu all the time, but the classic example here, the parallel is what I've heard referred to as belt chasing.

[00:25:12] MATT: A person my age tries doing that. Then I will get broken because I will not be able to recover. So I've got to shift my perspective from, I'm not chasing belts, but I'm doing it for the process and the belts are a nice byproduct. So instead that my process is now, how many classes can I do in a responsible, sustainable manner that will be good for me per week?

[00:25:29] DANIEL: not just that, if, if you're young and you pump out the belts and let's say you hit a brown or a black or whatever it is, right? If that's been your primary motivation, there might come a point where you've reached your goal and therefore. That's it. Yeah, you take up golf. I've seen that.

[00:26:03] DANIEL: And actually it doesn't mean you won't be successful because remember the episode from Jack Riewoldt? We had an interview with AFL superstar Jack Riewoldt from the Richmond Tigers. Yeah. And he was saying that when the Richmond Tigers were focused on. outcome. So how many wins and losses they had. And when they became obsessed with wins and losses, he said they lost their way.

[00:26:46] DANIEL: Uh, you know, I'll give you two examples. Again, these aren't prescriptive. They're certainly not prescriptive, but it's how I've worked. So when I was young, uh, I loved swimming and my competitive streak was in water I really enjoyed the competition. I I [00:27:00] enjoyed how physical it was, and it was perfect. It was a good stretch when I was 20.

[00:27:20] DANIEL: And so I went to the aquatic center and there's this kind of strange niche sport, which is actually a little bit like water polo, but. Honestly, for old people. Okay. Old people, meaning my age. Yeah. You are still swimming the ball up and down the pool and you're still shooting goals, but they're, you know, basketball hoops instead of kind of water polo nets.

[00:27:42] MATT: It sounds like not unlike kind of touch footy equivalent. Yeah.

[00:27:46] MATT: that's perfect. You know? And so in that

[00:27:56] DANIEL: Yes. Of how you can still get the benefits of [00:28:00] what you used to do in a different way, recognizing where your body is and the age that you have. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So the other example I found really useful is, again, going to the gym. So my body type is ectomorph, which means it's hard to build muscle.

[00:28:32] DANIEL: And it sounds a bit foreign, but basically Cuffs on your arms, you put cuffs on your legs, and it literally restricts your blood flow. There's a systematic review, and basically it's for people who are either in rehab, so they injure themselves, or for older people who want to exercise until they're 90.

[00:28:51] DANIEL: right. So what it allows you to do is it basically allows you to to exercise and to lift weights, but to lift a lot lighter weights to get [00:29:00] the same type of results, which is perfect. Easier on the joints. So I've just found it super helpful to add that into my routine and then lift a lot less. It's way faster recovery.

[00:29:36] DANIEL: Mm hmm. There are smart ways to do it. Yeah. Do you have any examples about how you've

[00:29:52] MATT: So late thirties, early forties, definitely mid forties, where your body just starts to rebel. Yep. So I still like to run, but I don't know how much longer [00:30:00] I'll be able to keep it up because of my knees. And the classic transition here is that you go from being a runner to a, I think the acronym is MAML, middle aged man in Lycra.

[00:30:13] DANIEL: It honestly makes sense to me that actually there does come a point where it makes sense to move from running to cycling. As

[00:30:24] MATT: Sure. That's good to know. Thanks for the permission.

[00:30:45] MATT: Yeah, so I get that. And I want to accept it. I think for me, at least there's a complimentary piece, which is all about still in an age appropriate way, still having some degree of [00:31:00] ambition and drive and, you know, desire for achievement. But again, it can't be me looking at the 20. year old version of myself and comparing myself against that guy.

[00:31:25] DANIEL: Yeah.

[00:31:28] MATT: Mm.

[00:31:40] DANIEL: You want to achieve a lot more as opposed to let's say the second mountain or even the twilight years where there's not quite that tension. This is the tension of that second reset. You can still run a marathon and actually if you decide to run marathons, you can still be extremely good at it until you're 50, 60, even older.

[00:32:09] DANIEL: So Matt, let's end with a practical exercise. What do you do about it? We like to give a practical activity, something you can take away and practically do if you're younger versus being in the middle of school. Yeah.

[00:32:45] MATT: And ideally like make it something that's going to commute to do it alongside other people as well. And the reason why we'd be suggesting this is because it's going to help shift your psychology to start to view yourself as someone who takes the habit of exercise and fitness seriously. So it becomes your identity.

[00:33:13] MATT: And, and, and again, like you mentioned before, there's no reason why you can't do that.

[00:33:31] MATT: Yeah,

[00:33:34] DANIEL: That is I'm someone who exercises I take fitness seriously and I'm capable and strong

[00:33:50] MATT: Yeah, that makes sense. Now,

[00:34:21] DANIEL: You might increase your exercise by 5 percent per day or per week or whatever your plan is. But the point is go for something audacious. So the exercise in the next week clearly is not to run a marathon, but it's to take some time to think about what might an exercise goal be? How can I swing for something big?

[00:35:03] DANIEL: Exactly,

[00:35:09] DANIEL: Sign up for something, even if it's a crazy idea. And you don't know if it'll stick. Yeah. But do something. Yeah. So that's 20s to 40s. What about if you're in your midlife squeeze? Yeah.

[00:35:26] MATT: So if you're someone who's for quite a while, you've been sedentary, haven't really done much at all. You found yourself in a position for a whole lot of reasons where you're just not fit and not feeling that inspired or motivated. Then I think to some degree, you start off on the simple end of the spectrum, right?

[00:35:58] MATT: So do

[00:36:17] DANIEL: Prioritizing it, process based.

[00:36:19] DANIEL: And adapting a different strategy.

[00:36:23] DANIEL: about telling the jokes, about writing the jokes. Yeah, so Jerry Seinfeld famously said that the way to, you know, If you're a comedian, I don't know, you should write a joke once a day.

[00:36:38] MATT: eventually some of the jokes were funny. Yeah, that's right. The mantra is don't break the chain.

[00:36:43] DANIEL: And if you do break it once, well then don't break it a second time. Yeah. Each month, try to just keep building the streak. Yes. Yeah.

[00:36:59] MATT: This is where I think [00:37:00] it can be a little bit more complicated, obviously, but if you find yourself Um, as many of us do being, uh, reasonably fit, really time poor, but having a bit more money, spare money that you had compared to when you were younger, then I reckon our advice would be take some of that excess money and divert it towards people, programs, coaches, clubs, whatever, that can take the thinking and the extra time out of the equation.

[00:37:37] MATT: Yeah. So you're

[00:37:52] MATT: It's worth it.

[00:38:06] DANIEL: Now the big caveat is you cannot buy your way to health and you cannot buy motivation.

[00:38:37] DANIEL: You might think cycling

[00:38:38] DANIEL: cool. That's right. Uh, but something would have connected, so take the meat, spit out the bones, take a moment of silence and think about it. Okay, so what is something you can do? from what we've discussed. Do you need to take a big swing? Do you need to go for gold and actually chase something adventurous [00:39:00] and be the type of person who exercises and, and, uh, chases health goals?

[00:39:30] DANIEL: It's worth the money. So take a minute, pause and have some space.[00:40:00]

[00:40:47] DANIEL: And we want to hear about his experiences about navigating the midlife slump.

[00:41:04] MATT: I finally got the, got the hit that lifelong dream of being able to say kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sponsored by bulk. I've always, yeah, it's been a long time coming, but I got there. Um, so I'd like to start off first of all, um, it'd be great just to hear a little bit about bulk, a little bit of background about bulk nutrients for those of us who don't know, but also like really keen to hear what you see as some of the connections between, I Um, the ideas that we've talked about in our podcast, particularly season two.

[00:41:50] BEN (BULK NUTRIENTS): Um, and then hence why we say, I think we'll officially registered a bit over 15 years ago. Now we're over a hundred staff. So absolutely massive growth in that time. Um, it's been an amazing journey. [00:42:00] I certainly love being involved in the business, um, as much now as I used to be. So, yeah, that's fantastic.

[00:42:06] MATT: Yeah,

[00:42:24] BEN (BULK NUTRIENTS): Yes. Yeah. Um, in terms of similarities between what we do in the podcast, uh, I'd say there's themes of like sharing ideas, um, being very open, say helping others and certainly trying to make most of your circumstances. Probably one would be, um, you know, getting up and trying again, even if you fail and no shame involved in, you know, I mean, we're, we're all humans, we've got massive flaws, um, but life's a journey and what we're trying to do is, is, you know, keep trying, trying to be better every day, um, and supporting each other, you know, along that journey.

[00:43:04] MATT: Yeah. Like that's one of the things I've always like appreciated about bulk. And you see that like both from like having to look around the facilities and, you know, meeting some of the people in the staff down there, but also like just in the, uh, in the emails, in the promotional material.

[00:43:21] BEN (BULK NUTRIENTS): Yeah. Look, uh, I think, uh, I can't remember if Jess talked about the bulk gives back system when she was interviewed, but that's actually something that she originated. Um, that's great. It's an initiative that we've just done for our second time now.

[00:43:47] BEN (BULK NUTRIENTS): You know, we've always been much more interested in getting behind that and being involved in something and making a difference between it happening and not than, you know, getting involved in a major corporate sporting event or something else where our presence doesn't really make much of a [00:44:00] difference.

[00:44:16] MATT: Thanks.

[00:44:30] BEN (BULK NUTRIENTS): No worries. And yeah, we love being involved. So thank you.

[00:44:49] MATT: Yeah, it's been illuminating cause it's probably got me thinking more about that tension between again, being a realist. And just having to let go of, because of the harsh, if nothing else, biological [00:45:00] necessity of age being associated with decline.

[00:45:16] DANIEL: Yeah, look, mine is probably a bit more confronting. I, um, you know, you said that in an ideal world, we will be exercising for our health and fitness for those kind of longevity goals.

[00:45:28] MATT: Yeah.

[00:45:36] MATT: Yeah.

[00:45:47] DANIEL: And how do I have a healthy, realistic view of aging? Yes. Rather than go with the flow. But, you know,

[00:46:09] MATT: Um, and my father in law particularly, like he goes to the gym every day. He walks every day. And both those figures, literally in the last week have come around and played my 11 year old son at table tennis and played like multiple games with him, you know, and I find that really admirable. And I also find really admirable the older people who I've seen at sports clubs and stuff, who again, once top performers, and they were in the, like they, they had their last year of the limelight and you see them particularly as they kind of hit that midlife squeeze, they're moving to, you know, Coaching roles.

[00:46:56] DANIEL: That are beyond themselves, just like we arrived to the same [00:47:00] conclusion with friendship and with productivity, the mature shift from, let's say, the forties and fifties into the second mountain phase, you know, from 65 onwards, is that move from being the star?

[00:47:32] DANIEL: I'm not saying we shouldn't accept, um, that there will be a time when we need to rely on others completely for our physical health, but, but to not set ourselves up so that our spouse or our friends or our family have to look after us because we didn't. So there's a, a generative, uh, an outward looking approach to how we're approaching our activity.

[00:48:10] DANIEL: Using my set and reset framework from Spacemaker, and we're gonna talk about this over two episodes because there is so much to cover. It's such an important topic and it can impact so many people's lives. But until next time, make Space Fair.

[00:48:29] DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor.

[00:48:43] NARRATOR: you like this podcast, you'll love our Spacemakers YouTube channel. Full of content on productivity, life wisdom, and everyday spirituality. It's practical, interesting, and a little playful.