In honor of back to school madness starting up, the Skirts Up Show, dive into the concept of unschooling with their guests, Sam (#2) and her daughter Kaya.

The discussion opens with some light-hearted banter and personal fail stories, setting a relaxed and engaging tone. Sam (#2) shares her journey of transitioning her children from a traditional schooling system to an unschooling approach, explaining the challenges and successes along the way. She describes how she adapted to providing her children with a more individualized learning experience, incorporating their unique interests and learning styles.

Kaya, Sam's 14-year-old daughter, shares her perspective on unschooling, highlighting how it has allowed her to explore her interests deeply and develop a love for learning. The conversation touches on the impact of unschooling on the family's dynamics and how it has fostered a sense of autonomy and responsibility in the children. Sam also talks about navigating her husband's initial skepticism and the eventual acceptance and support of the unschooling method.

The episode is filled with practical insights and real-life examples that illustrate the flexibility and benefits of unschooling. The hosts and guests discuss various educational philosophies, the importance of mental health, and the role of parents in facilitating a supportive learning environment.

Overall, this episode is a valuable resource for parents considering unschooling, providing both inspiration and practical advice from a family who has successfully embraced this educational approach.

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Hey, you.

You're tuned in to the Skirts up show with Samantha and Melissa.

Join our mission to normalize failure, but still uncover the positives at every twist and turn.

Skirts up, but keep your panties on.

What's up, Skirts up squad?

It's Samantha and Melissa, and we are gonna have a bomb ass time today.

I can already tell we have.

We are opening up with Sam, number two, because I'm number one, obviously.

And we have her daughter with us.

Kaya.

Hi, guys.

Hi.

That was so cute.

It was in perfect unison.

That's probably the only time we're in perfect unison.

Oh, this is for, like, the only time.

I like your blind.

I told you guys.

This is gonna be hilarious if you can't tell already.

Usually Melissa and I kind of do a separate intro, but we thought it'd be really fun to include them in this intro and get the conversation kicked off altogether.

Yeah.

So who wants to start with their, like, their fail?

Crickets.

I'm gonna go.

I literally hear crickets.

No, there's no.

Oh, actually that's hilarious because there is a cricket that is in this.

Love it.

Yes.

So for the nights I've been here at work and working, and he's like, in this back corner in the shop, and he's just, like, cricketing away.

And every time I go close to him, he gets quiet.

And then if I stand still, he starts cricketing again.

And then I'm like, I can't know.

I literally hear crickets.

But it's at my house.

Okay, well, so can I share my fail?

Hit it.

My fail.

And we'll just keep it really short and simple and sweet.

It's literally just about not always being good, about taking and making time for myself.

So we.

I was supposed to go hang out with Sam and some of our.

One of our other friends.

I'm gonna say shout out to Courtney and a couple.

We were supposed to go a couple weeks ago, but then something happened and we had to change the date.

And Sam texts me yesterday and she's like, are you ready for tonight?

And I said, wait, what?

And I looked at the calendar and I was like, oh, no, is it the Claremont thing?

And she's like, yes.

And basically, I have just been so overwhelmed with work.

I've been.

I was like.

I had stayed up the whole night previous.

She's working terrible with that.

I am bad, but sometimes you just.

I just have to.

Yeah.

And so, like, I hadn't slept in hours and I was just like, I. I can't.

Like, I can't I'm at work right now.

I didn't go to home last night.

I was here yesterday.

I just have to.

I have to go home and sleep as soon as work is over.

And I was very sad, and I missed getting to go downtown with my friends.

Yeah.

And we've been talking a lot about the entrepreneurship burnout.

So I'm hoping that you're able to catch up and rejuvenate before it gets.

I agree.

I want to rejuvenate.

Yeah.

Yeah, that word.

Thank you.

No, you're absolutely right.

I. I do need to.

I do need to, like, just kind of, like, take a step back sometimes.

So I. I'm working on it.

I think I might go back and listen to that episode we did with Jill, one of our very first episodes.

And she talked about how different types of.

What.

She talked about how different types of, like, learning abilities that everybody has and.

Right.

How they operate and can, like, prioritize their needs and what they want to do in their day.

And there was just so much fun little tidbits, and I bet it would be helpful to brush up on your architect.

Architect type archetype.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So I think that's what I'm gonna do.

Yeah.

But I realized recently that I'm still using Ada dying a.

To my dog dying as a crutch for not continuing all the, like, awesome progress that I was making because I had started journaling and started planning out my weeks and planning out my months and doing nightly oracle readings, and just, like, it just made my day go so much smoother every day.

And then when Ada died, I stopped doing all of that.

And I have felt in complete disarray.

Like, I feel like my brain is all over the place.

I feel like I'm not getting things done like I was.

And it felt so, so good when I was doing it.

And I keep saying, oh, I'll start it next Monday.

I'll start it tomorrow.

I'll start it next Monday.

And I never do.

So my fail is that I keep pushing it off and I keep using a.

To dying as an excuse as to why I stopped and why I'm not.

And the success is that I'm going to stop putting it off and I'm going to get my life in check again.

Well, I think you might need to go back and listen.

No, just kidding.

No, actually, I'm serious.

No, for real.

I keep hearing, eat your frog first.

Eat your frog first.

I keep hearing that, so.

Oh, that's funny, because that's Jill's episode I. I was thinking about the episode we did with the grief counselor and how she said, yes, you have to feel your feelings.

But she also.

She.

Remember how she's like, I don't want to offend anybody, but you kind of.

You just can't wallow.

What did she.

There was something about poopy diapers.

She said that a lot.

That.

Don't say your poopy diaper.

Oh, that.

I was like, I can't remember what she said, but there was a lot of poop and a lot of diapers.

There was one poop and one diaper, but we thought it was hilarious.

Oh, and didn't we talk about poop last time, too?

Because I made you laugh.

I can't remember.

And now I'm making a 14 year old laugh with poop.

It's not my fault.

Well, so, yeah.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact that you had to, like, step back and take some time to grieve.

And I think it's wise of you to be like, you're.

You're being introspective and I'm proud of you.

First things.

It's time to get back on the.

I need to.

It felt so good.

And now here I am, like, just winging it and it doesn't feel good.

So I need to do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Does.

So about Sam number two or Kaya, do either of you have.

Which.

I have a dog named Kaya.

No, I think mine would actually be.

So I recently started seeing a functional medicine doctor.

I've got some thyroid issues and I'm struggling.

She's pretty sure I'm struggling with adrenal fatigue.

So last week I had to come off all my ADHD medication.

Oh, no.

It was a struggle last week.

Yeah, shit.

Scum is probably the better word.

So, like, it was all I could do to keep my notes for work.

I'm not a super big procrastinator.

I'm working on my masters.

Literally turned that stuff in yesterday, three hours before the deadline.

But it also reminded me that probably I don't slow down enough.

I'm somebody that's like, super busy.

And I told my husband last week, I was like, I'm realizing I burned the candle not just from both ends, but also in the middle.

Wow.

So it was just kind of a good reminder that even though the medication helps me do everything I need to do, I also need to slow down, like, because that's probably part of why I've got adrenal fatigue.

So Wow.

I feel like that fits right on in.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Mine's a little more basic.

I was making candy bracelets.

It's the type of bead and I was literally tying it up and it snapped on me and it hit my hand.

You just get to eat it now?

No, it's just a bead type.

They're just bigger beads.

Yeah.

I wish it was actual candy.

That would.

That would have made it so much better, right?

Yeah.

I have to eat this bracelet now.

Darn right.

Oh my God.

That would be like Nora.

Nora has this popsicle.

My 3 year old, she's got this popsicle addiction.

And so she'll like eat a popsicle.

She goes, can I have another one?

I'm sure.

And so four popsicles later, she goes, can I have another one?

And she just like cocks her head to the side.

Please, mommy.

And don't say no, say yes.

And I go, okay, last popsicle, last one.

And she goes, okay.

And so I open up the last popsicle for her, she eats it and then she comes back with a popsicle behind her back and she goes, mom, I ate the wrong one.

I meant to eat this one.

How do you say lunch?

You did loophole, that's for sure.

That's Tate.

That's the story in our life.

Like, how do you say no to that?

You don't.

Kaya.

She's strict.

I like it.

Are there to be rules?

Not to be suggestions.

Really?

I'm learning about you, Kya.

Is this really how you feel?

Do you like having parents?

Okay, just to be clear, kaya, you're a 14 year old.

Do you like to have rules in the house?

Like, you like following them?

It depends on what they are.

There's some rules that I'm like, those are stupid.

I'm not following that.

And then there's other rules that are like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

Like, don't let the dogs out when the chickens are outside.

I'm looking at my brother.

That sounds like a great time.

She's also a very, very lenient mom, though.

Like, she doesn't care if I sneak out as long as I have my phone on me.

Oh.

To be clear, she has never done it.

So I plan on it when I have friends who will actually do it with me and they aren't boring.

She's like, I've been trying to plan my.

Okay, this is awesome.

We have a 14 year old here.

Who is like, I'm trying to plan.

My naughty adolescence that's coming up.

It's not here yet.

Oh, no, no, no.

We joke with her that.

No, my husband and I.

My husband was not a good kid.

I was.

I've had a little bit, but it wasn't anything major.

I tell her all the time I wouldn't have invited her to a party because they would be crocheting and knitting in their comfy pajamas and like sipping wine like they couldn't hang with us.

That's what Kya and her friends do.

Or that's what you did back when you were.

They would do.

That is true.

That is a 50 year old woman.

I hear it, I'm here for it.

I mean, right now my hair dye looks gray, so.

Which I love it, by the way.

Looks like.

Oh, we love it.

Sam.

Number two.

We decided that it would be fun to have you on the podcast because you have a really unique perspective on different ways to school, especially when there is ADHD and other factors that make it really difficult for our kids in school.

Yeah.

So we did not start out that way.

Just so you know, I'm from a family of teachers.

I grew up in a traditional education system, went through school and then when my son was younger, kindergarten actually.

He was about to get expelled from kindergarten.

Oh, wow.

From kindergarten you throw a chair at a teacher.

Yeah.

So it's a three strike thing.

He's got severe adhd.

We did not know that's what it was at the time.

But yeah, we had a couple of incidences where he, like one of them, he threw a chair or threw a chair and broke a desk.

Okay.

Oh, geez.

Another incident where he ended up kicking a teacher.

How old is he now?

So he's 11 now.

Okay.

Okay.

So I mean, yeah, he was five at the time, so.

And then there was another incident where they had to evacuate a classroom and he accidentally hurt one of his friends.

And the thing was like, as soon as he would come down and he could get control of himself, he would literally sit in a corner and cry.

He felt terrible.

And so.

But he was.

It like his adrenaline was just going.

When he got into situation, he struggles with transitions and emotion to speculation.

And so that was a really big thing.

And so especially at 5, like they already struggle with that on top of it.

But I was really, really thankful to his kindergarten teacher.

She was getting ready to retire, so I don't think she genuinely cared.

So she told me, she goes, he is so incredibly smart and there's nothing wrong with him other than he has undiagnosed, unmanaged adhd.

She was a former special Education teacher.

And she said, yeah, we got really lucky with her.

They were amazing.

And so she looked at me, and she goes, if you could pull him out and homeschool him for a few years, it would be the best thing you could ever do.

She goes, he will get lost in our system, and he's just too smart.

Oh, my God.

And unfortunately, that tends to be the story with a lot of our, like, ADHD and autistic children.

And just our children that are different, they don't quite fit.

So I removed him from school.

There was no plan.

My husband was on deployment.

He was about to be expelled.

And so I just pulled him.

I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing.

I had never imagined being a homeschool parent.

Like, it was not even on my list.

Right.

I was actually working on my bachelor's at the time.

What were you studying?

I was actually studying.

Studying psychology with a minor in speech pathology.

Then two weeks later, Covid shut everything down.

Oh.

So, like, it was just, like, perfect timing.

So then she was in virtual school when they were still trying to figure out what it was.

And we were living in Virginia at the time.

And so I watched her have three panic attacks over reading.

And one of the things I had just recently learned was that the brain is really not even ready to read till somewhere between around 8, 8 years old.

Okay.

And anything between 6 and 10 is normal.

So I was like, okay, there's.

Yeah, so anything between 6 and 10 is normal to read.

And we push kids too soon sometimes.

And especially, like, if they have any type of neurodivergence.

80 ADHDers are about 30% behind.

I did.

I have been learning that I actually have a handful of friends whose children have a really, really hard time in school.

They're, you know, constantly being kicked out of activities and not allowed to attend other events that the other kids are allowed to.

And one actually got expelled for a little bit because just, again, impulse controls, like, what you're explaining.

And usually the school cop can come in and just deescalate and they can carry on with their day.

And this time, he was able to pull the gun out of the holster.

And he wanted to kill himself.

Shoot himself.

He didn't want to.

Like, he didn't actually want to.

But it's just, like, when.

I guess I personally don't have any experience with it, but I guess, like, when they're in the motions of it, they just can't control themselves.

And so, yeah, there's some statistic that I've read Before that, it's like ADHD kids are redirected 10 times more than a neurotypical child.

And I mean, there's only so many times you can hear.

No, don't do that.

Stop.

This is too much.

Until you eventually start to internalize it.

And that was kind of what I was afraid, especially with him.

And we now know.

We didn't know at the time.

Kaya is on the spectrum.

She's high functioning, but so that makes her brain operate a little differently.

Okay.

And so during COVID we actually PCs, we were military, so we PCs to Maryland.

And what is PCs?

So we moved.

So it's a military move.

Sorry.

He went from.

He was.

He was stationed on a boat in Virginia and he went to get stationed at Norfolk Academy in the Naval.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so I'm working.

I'm still working on my bachelor's degree at this time.

And we tried a whole.

What was it?

I think you guys made it two weeks in virtual school.

And I told my husband, I was like, I cannot police them in this, in this setting.

This is not going to work for them and get my schoolwork done and still have my sanity intact.

So you've got a super late birthday.

Tayton's an April birthday.

So I was like, you know what, why don't we just pull them out?

Let's do this full homeschool thing for a year.

Worst case scenario, we hold them back a year.

Sure.

So I found this really amazing program in Maryland.

It was an unschooling program.

I didn't know they had an unschooling program program.

So the lady that runs it is phenomenal.

Like, she created this program for her own kids.

She was a former teacher.

Wait, who?

Amy?

Oh, I love Ms. Amy.

And so I called her because really, I was just looking for a place to put them for the social aspect and just also to, like, get a break.

Sure.

So that I could do what I needed to do.

And so, like, at this point, we're still in the full, like, traditional homeschool setting.

Like, these are the curriculum.

This is what you're going to be doing, you know, and it was awful.

That was awful.

And so we met Amy and they started going and attending and Amy started talking to me about unschooling.

So unschooling is kind of this model where we trust our children and we allow them to kind of explore things when they're ready and when they're interested.

And I mean, it makes sense because as adults, if I'm interested in something and I dive In I'm going to retain a lot more information.

Yeah, I think I'm not interested in.

So she started recommending all these different books and started reading them.

I'm a big reader, and I was also learning about brain development because my bachelor's was psychology with a minor in speech, and it had a special specialization in child development.

So I'm learning all these things and it's all, like, connecting.

And I'm like, this makes so much sense.

So, like, with her, we pushed reading.

She was struggling.

We were starting to wonder if she was dyslexic.

Okay, just go ahead and put that out.

Like, today, this child is reading at a 12th grade level.

Like, she loves to read.

You love reading.

And I remember a time where I literally asked him to pick up a book.

She would have cried.

So.

Because she was feeling.

You tell.

Tell us why.

Tell us.

What were you feeling?

Basically, it got really stressful because I couldn't read and I kept flipping the letters because no one taught me any of the tricks to understand the letters.

They just taught me words.

You were supposed to know how to put them together because of your parents.

And all they did was teach us.

Cypress.

There was no correctly sounding out.

I learned that on my own time with a reading tutor.

And now I have read every single Rick Riordan book he has released.

And they're perfect.

I remember because.

So I went to school.

I was going to be a teacher.

I wanted to be a school counselor when I was.

I. I like a psychology.

Like, you know, I mean.

But in Texas, you have to be a teacher for three years first.

So I went through the program.

I did my practicums and everything.

I actually, just because of life, I ended up dropping out in the very last semester before I got my bachelor's.

But that was one of the things that I got to do was go in and work with kids and help them read and like, learning.

And it.

You're right.

That's exactly what it is.

Like you.

They expect kids to just learn sight words.

Yeah.

And nothing against teachers.

I'm from a family of teachers, and I know how hard they work.

But the reason we really push early literacy is because it makes it easier on the teacher because the kids can read.

We got her.

And it was so interesting because we met this amazing reading tutor when we were in Maryland, and it's who I got for her.

And she specialized in dyslexia.

So I was worried that maybe she was dyslexic.

Turns out neurodivergent brains don't actually Learn to read in the same way.

Okay.

And so we, that's what we learn.

Like ADHD brains, autistic brains, sometimes they need less steps.

And it's a lot easier to say this.

Most what school teaches is a.

This is the letter A.

And A says ah, yeah.

What her tutor taught her was this is a picture of the sound.

Ah, yeah.

So they took a step.

So it made a lot of difference.

And so we did the first year.

My husband's still not on board, like at this point.

Like my husband thought it was nuts and.

But the unschooling, the unschooling, like the whole approach.

Because it also changed my parenting style.

Okay, how.

And when you said you stumbled across the unschooling in that they enrolled.

So are they going to someone else that's doing the unschooling for them or is this something that you've learned and you're doing for them yourself?

So it was kind of a combination of both.

So the unspilling group was more of like a social thing.

They would.

And the way it is is like, we're not teachers, we're facilitators.

So we facilitate an opportunity and it's up to them if they choose to take the opportunity.

So that's what the program was.

It was really a social gathering so they could meet their friends and hang out and then there would be classes and the kids could choose if they wanted to do the class or not.

So after the first semester, I was like, you know what?

I'm going to try this whole unschooling thing out.

I'm hating this teaching curriculum again.

Worst case scenario, I'll hold them back a year.

Because they're, they were just, they were both young for their age.

So I was like, worst case scenario, I'll hold them back here.

By the end of the year, we did a standardized test and they were both at or above grade level in everything.

And we had not touched a curriculum at this point in like six months.

Wow.

So I was like, well, maybe there is something to this.

And so then I started seeing her.

She was starting to read and she was starting to find her own interests and she was deep diving into things like that.

And it was so cool.

And then my son, we never picked up a curriculum.

Now I will preface that with, he's the type of kid we have learned he does not do anything until he is ready.

And then when he does it, like, you never know.

He was late.

So he did that with walking, talking.

Everything okay, I'm still better.

He so she was early with everything, so she kind of set a bar high.

So I had to, like, readjust my expectations with him.

Yeah.

So he did not learn to read till he was about nine and a half.

And I'll never forget, we were sitting in the bedroom and he just starts reading.

And I was like, you can read.

And the re.

The way we had done that, I had followed, like, all the unschoolers.

They had told me, like, he wanted to chat with his friends on, like, Minecraft and things like that.

So I had set him up with an old phone that had voice chat.

So he would speak into the phone what he wanted to say, it would type it up for him, and then he would type it in.

And that is how he learned to read.

Oh, wow.

So.

Basically he learned because he wanted to and he needed to, and it was quick.

Yeah.

And it was with him.

Potty training was the same way, actually, because, like, we tried for years.

We tried for a couple of years, and I finally gave up.

And then my husband was on a deployment and he woke up on a Tuesday morning and yelled, I have to pee.

That's.

That's that kid.

I still remember that.

Like, that was him.

Like, the door open, you know, I started seeing, like.

And it takes time.

Like, you have to learn.

But unschooling is about learning to trust your kid.

Okay.

And it's totally opposite of what we're told.

Like, kids can't be trusted.

Yeah.

And so it's about learning to trust your children and that they want what's best for themselves and, like, intuitively, like, they know.

I mean, it doesn't mean I don't guide them, and it doesn't mean I don't push them.

Tayton recently got diagnosed with a reading and writing disability connected to his adhd.

Okay.

So we now have a tutor for him.

Okay.

So she is using something.

He's got some, like, short term memory issues connected to his adhd.

So they're going back now and they're filling some of those holes and she's like, helping expand in.

But his math skills, I mean, he said he's about to be a 6th grader.

His math school skills are 8th grade level because he loves math.

And so we open the right doors and.

But, like, what does that look like?

Because.

So I think that's like a big question about unschooling is.

So you hear that the kids are guiding what they want to learn and how they learn it.

But of course, they need to know basic math and stuff.

So what is it that they bring to you and is like, oh, teach me math.

That would help them elevate to above grade level.

Yeah.

So unschooling does not mean the absence of schools or curriculum or classes.

It just simply means that we kind of follow them and when they're ready.

I mean, Tayton, he's been working with math workbooks for a long time.

He's really into engineering, so he does a lot of engineer stuff that requires higher level math.

So him and my husband, they work together and like, he shows him in real time how he's going to use it and.

Can I. I just want to interject one thing.

One of my best friends did unschooling for years and this was like, before it was cool.

I'm not saying I don't know, but it was about 20 years ago.

It was no, maybe 15.

But anyway, I think, because if you're doing it correctly, I.

Watching her, it was more work than any parent I ever saw.

Like, it was amazing watching her.

Like, if, if her son came to her and was just like, hey, how does, how does the engine in the car work?

Like, I don't understand.

Like, she would have, like, she would delve into it.

Like, it became a thing.

It's like she got really good at just listening to them and then trying to like go and find the right doors to open for him, which I thought was.

It was hard work watching it from the outside.

And it's so hard as a parent because like, you want to be like, this is how you do it.

But the philosophy is a lot of like.

And it works.

Like, I'm going to show you a little bit, but I also want you to mess up and fail forward like you guys were talking about in the beginning.

Like, I want you to learn how not to do things really obviously within a safety realm.

You know, I'm not going to let him learn how electricity works like electrocute.

By putting a waffle in the socket.

Yes, exactly.

I mean, that's a lot of what it is.

It's allowing them.

You're still facilitating the interest.

And a prime example.

And then I'll gonna let her tell you a little bit about it is history.

I love history.

History is incredible.

And I will never forget when she was in public school, it was subject she hated the most.

Absolutely hated the way they taught it.

And I kept trying to explain to her, like, history isn't all about dates.

It's about philosophy and ethics and morality.

And, you know, it's learning from your past.

And so I never pushed it with Her.

And then was it about two years ago she found the Rick Riordan books and now she has.

She has developed her own interest in history.

Okay, so.

Okay, tell me more about the Rick Riordan books because it's the second time that you mentioned them.

Okay, so they are hyper fixation.

I have.

So I have an entire Pinterest fan art board with over 500 pins.

And it starts off with the Percy Jackson series.

Oh, that feels like everyone's heard of.

Yes, thank you.

It's mythology.

And then he incorporate.

Incorporates it into like the modern times as the.

At the time he's writing the book.

And if I had found these when I was younger or I read them in.

In the Times they were.

I was supposed to.

Which was once a year.

Well, we don't want to suppose to on yourself.

I would have grown up with the characters.

Okay.

But basically, in the first book, big bombshell.

Ha.

Surprise.

The main character is ADHD and dyslexic because the book answer is their brains were made for war and.

And ancient Greek because they're demigods, technically speaking.

And I feel like if I had grown up with the books, it would have made me feel a little bit less weird for not knowing how to read properly and I would have felt more understood.

And also then you start delving into different types of mythology.

He's got the Kane Chronicles, which is Egyptian mythology.

Oh, wow.

Magnus Chase, which is Norse mythology.

And then you've got one off books with the different characters.

And they're very interesting because what it does is, for me, it triggered an interest in mythology and now I know way too much.

So just to be clear, these are books with characters in it and the storyline is based off of the actual, you know, the actual stories.

And that's how you're learning.

It takes some creative liberties.

I will say that it's not entirely accurate, especially with Calypso in that one.

Book, but does that make you kind of want to go and be what was real, what were.

What was it does.

And she had to tell me to stop talking about it because I was talking about it so much.

But I read all five Percy Jackson.

Well, I listened to all five Percy Jackson books audible in about a week.

Oh, wow.

They're all 10 hours a piece.

That's amazing.

That is a hyper fixation.

I understand because I'm also.

I mean, and that's another benefit too, like, of unschooling is that they learn to go and find the information of the things they're interested in.

And so that's what it did, it led to this deep dive in Greek mythology and Roman mythology and Nordic Norse myth, Norse mythology and Egyptian mythology.

And then it turned into, like a deep dive in European geography.

Really.

It started with, I wanted to know the history behind, like, the evolution of the mythology.

Because if you go way back, Dionysus was not a freaking frat boy.

He was, I'm gonna murder you if.

You do the wrong thing.

Watching Hercules with her is torture.

You never want to do it.

I will point out every inconsistency, every.

Heracles, Hercules is Roman for sake, people.

Oh, my God, I love that.

Okay, so does this lead into like, actual, like, evolution as taught in school?

Like going from the mythology into, like, normal?

If you want to call it that?

Yeah, it does.

Because then I was like, oh, well, what about Greek history?

How did this happen?

How.

Why did they evolve?

What were the Greek dark ages?

And then it delves into, oh, well, I want to know more about the countries they were in conflict with and how they evolved.

Oh, and that goes into knowing really random facts that nobody needs to know.

Kaya, are you also adhd?

I don't know.

Oh, she's diagnosed adhd.

We're not really sure if it's odd ADHD or just sometimes autism.

And girls can appear like ADHD until they're older.

So it's when people have autism and adhd.

Yeah, it's fun little mix, wanting a system but not having the energy to keep it going.

It's craving organization and thriving on organization.

But your brain really can't comprehend actually doing organization.

It has a pride.

Example, I love organization.

I have Google Docs full of information on history that I read through.

Oh, like, that's like my brother, we.

Used to tease him that his hobby was like, like making spreadsheets.

We're like, I love making.

Go home and make a spreadsheet.

Okay, I love making spreadsheets.

Everything's so organized.

Yes.

Interesting.

So how do kids who struggle, like some of my friends kids, they have, they find interests and they find these hobbies and they love them.

But because of how the brain works for them, with ADHD and being on the spectrum, they can't focus on what it is that they want to learn about.

So is there, like a trick to help them focus on what it is that they even want to know?

Well, typically with adhd, like, when you're really interested in something, you're going to hyper focus, like to the point where it's honestly obnoxious.

That's kind of how my.

My Interest in mental health actually started was with my son and delved into every book I could find.

I do actually have, and I don't know, this could be their option, their thing.

I've always struggled with reading itself, and we recently had learned when we were going through a diagnosis for our son and when his reading disability got diagnosed, that ADHD don't always process reading correctly.

And so when I discovered audiobooks, my life changed.

So because I read at the pace I talk and then my vision kind of like jumps around, like, it's really hard to focus.

That's what used to happen to me.

Like, I would.

They thought that I was OCD because I would say, look, I keep.

If I miss one word on the page, like, I have to keep going back and figuring out which it was because I know I missed it.

Yeah.

And we thought that it was.

For a while they were thinking it was ocd, but it turns out it was add.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, that.

That could be it.

They could be trying to read this information and their brain is just not processing it correctly.

It could also be breaking it into bite sizes.

I know we talk a lot about, like, you know, ADHD years need shorter workflows.

I don't know if I always agree with that, because if I'm in a hyper focus, don't interrupt me, because it's really hard for me to get back into.

That's why I work better alone instead of during the day when everybody's at the shop.

Yeah, yeah.

And I would think it too, would also go back to kind of what you guys were actually talking at the beginning with the different learning styles.

Like, I kind of have a theory.

I really don't have any research to support it, but I kind of have a theory that most people that are ADHD at least have like, a sense that's more heightened than others.

So it might be an idea to like how they learn better.

Maybe kinetically or auditory or visual.

Interesting.

My auditory is, like, really heightened.

I get agitated easily with too much noise.

Yeah, Yeah.

I can hear everything.

We all do.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I don't know.

I guess that would be my guess, but I think if it would just kind of depend on what they're trying to learn.

My son really has an interest in martial arts, and we've tried multiple martial arts studios, and unfortunately, it's just too slow for him.

Like, he needs to be moving.

He's our too much energy all the time kid.

And so as much as he loved it, it wasn't a good Fit for him because he just needs to move more.

Okay, how does unschooling work for a busy parent who's like kind of out of options or doesn't like, it's just school isn't working for them, but obviously we need education.

How does a busy parent with like a full time job incorporate unschooling?

Or is it just not going to be for them?

Yeah.

So let me go ahead and tell you.

Like, I have worked at least part time or full time the entire time.

And the problem in Maryland, we had an amazing support system.

We had the tutorial where I could go drop them off for a few hours a day.

We had amazing friends.

Like, it's a big thing up there.

Like people don't look at you weird when you tell them you unschool your kids.

We moved here about a year and a half ago and it's been a lot more difficult since we.

We'd moved here.

We actually had made the decision.

And this is actually still unschooling.

It's allowing your children to make their own choices.

So Kaya is actually going to be attending a charter school next year.

Okay.

And you're excited?

I want friends who actually come over and hang out with me.

Okay.

And Tayton is going to be attending a forest school in the area.

A forest program that's local here to Buford Cultural.

It's called Trailblazers.

It's a really cool secular program.

I'm sorry, you said forest as in like trees?

Forest outside.

Like they're outside.

It's a really cool program.

It's gonna be a great fit for him.

They do a couple of hours of like, independent study work, which we've picked his curriculum for that.

Like, we get to tailor it.

He's doing an engineering unit study.

I've had to put a lot of work into making sure that he can do that without me.

But then he'll get like in the evenings, like, they're actually.

Their hope is when they get to high school, they'll be able to include internships and things like that.

Oh, wow.

This program is not designed for ADHD and autistic kids, but it seems to be the people that they, the kids they attract.

Interesting because maybe because they're just out there in the, in nature getting to like, move around and do things.

And the one of the ladies that runs it is actually a therapist, so it was so funny.

So my son also has odd, so Oppositional defiance disorder.

So they're the kids, they push back on authority like nobody's business.

That's a diagnosis.

It is, yes.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm thinking about, you know who.

Yeah, yeah.

No.

And, yeah, this is really helpful.

I wonder if it may actually just be a symptom of ADHD, because ADHDers, they don't just do what people tell them to do.

We want to know why, you know?

But I always tell my husband, I'm like, I'm afraid if I put him in the public school system as an odder, that I think it's gonna be an amazing trait when he's an adult, I want him to never be afraid to push back, to question.

I just want him to learn to do it respectfully.

Right.

And so when I told her that when someone was odd, she goes, I love odd kids.

And I'm like, you're the only person in the history of anything ever said.

That you push back passive aggressively.

Okay.

That's what I've learned, especially online.

You push back passive aggressively.

Okay.

So, yeah, so he will actually be attending that.

Had we stayed in Maryland, we would probably still be in the same way we were.

The program we had before, they had homecomings and proms and graduations, and they facilitated classes if the kids were interested in them.

Unfortunately, that's not here unless we go closer to Atlanta.

Gotcha.

And so since I have to work full time, um, I work full time, remote, thankfully.

So my schedule is, you know, very flexible for the most part.

Um, and where did you.

Okay, so, like, where did you even find out?

Like, where would a parent or someone go to find out about these other programs?

So you can actually snap.

What is the website?

There is a website, and if you.

I'll find it and I can give it to you guys and you can link it.

Yeah, but it's specifically for alternative education.

Okay.

His program is considered a homeschool program, but they're fully accredited.

Okay.

So he would graduate with a diploma.

Okay.

So unschooling is just a term that says you let your kids decide kind of where they want to go and how they want to go about it.

Because charter school is a school.

My kids are in charter school.

Like, it's a public.

She's.

It's a public high school that she's going to be attending in Barrow County.

It's an arts and science academy that she's really, really excited about.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

It's about allowing your children to lead their own education.

And we have a couple of rules or with.

Around her starting school is that she has to finish the Full year.

And if she decides at the end of the year that that's not what she wants, then we'll find another.

Okay.

Fair?

Fair.

Because I think that's the other thing is, you know, children may want to do something, they get into it, then they don't, and it just, it changes a lot and it goes a lot of back and forth.

But you are putting the boundary and the structure of, okay, we can do that, but the deal is we're going to see it through and then you can change your mind.

Yes.

And that's, you know, I feel like unschooling fits perfectly.

So we consider ourselves like gentle parents.

And I think it fits really perfectly into that model of respecting your children.

And I always have to communicate to my father in law, who is very like old school, that military.

Just because I don't yell and scream at my kids does not mean we do not have our boundaries and our consequences.

Right.

I just have different ways of going about it.

Like the grounded letter.

We don't spank them, we don't ground them.

We do have what we call a grounded letter.

What's that?

So they have it.

We have like a first time we ask you as a warning, second time, you lose whatever privilege or whatever privilege until you finish whatever it is we ask.

And second to the third time, you get a grounded letter.

And so the grounded letter is just certain amount of points that they have to earn with different chores and things around the house.

And it takes the responsibility off of me to them.

So it's not my job to get you ungrounded, it's yours.

So if you're stubborn, you can be grounded for an entire year and there's nothing she can do about it.

It's your problem.

Oh, I love that.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

And that's a big thing about unschooling is like we shift the child appropriate responsibility to our children.

Like, it is your choice to decide how you want to learn, what you want to learn.

That's amazing.

You know, parenting is the same way.

Like we tell our kids all the time of the time, our house is a democracy.

There's a handful of times that it's a monarchy.

And you just have to trust we know best.

Yeah.

But because situational monarchy, that's what that is.

Okay, thank you.

I did not know that.

Thank you.

But because we allow for this freedom and choice and they feel like they're heard when there is an issue.

And we've changed rules before in our house because they could make a really good Case.

That means that when we do put our foot downs, they trust us.

They understand.

Like, it doesn't mean they don't.

They love it.

I mean, they still push back and they may not like it, but they don't.

We don't have a lot of behavioral issues out of our kids.

Oh, they know that you will listen to them.

This is unfair.

This isn't right.

Or, like, interesting.

Do you have, like, an experience with that, Kaya, that you can think of, like the.

Because you're just over there nodding your head.

I was just wondering what you were.

Thinking of the one time we were walking home and I was in elementary school, and I went, are you.

Are swimsuits good for the environment?

Okay.

Which is.

And I was like, well, if they hold the water and they dry faster, do they contribute to evaporation?

Because I had just learned about it.

Oh, okay.

So what were you trying.

What were you trying to, like, were you trying to say, oh, should we.

We'd be wearing swimming suits?

Or what were you like?

No, it was just a random thought.

I was debating her on it on the walk home.

Okay.

I mean, you know, we still.

She's still a teenage girl, and we're very different and she's.

We're very different people.

And so we got into an argument.

I don't know.

It's a couple months ago.

I don't remember what it was over.

And she definitely needs to work a little bit on her anger management.

But we.

After we calmed down, like, I was able to, like, reflect on what she said and that there was some truth in what she was telling me.

And so we were.

Just a few days ago.

Just a few days ago.

That too.

But this specific argument, I remember, it was pretty big because my husband even said, like, you guys don't normally fight like that.

And so I don't remember.

Again, I don't remember exactly what it was about.

But we ended up.

I.

The next morning, we sat down over breakfast and we talked, and we were able to kind of come to a compromise.

Like, I was able to hear her point of view and what she was trying to communicate with me.

And I was.

She was also in a good place at that point to communicate with me, like, how she was feeling.

And we were able to find a compromise.

Right.

When not all of the, like, high emotions were emotions flying around.

Yeah.

And I mean, as a parent, I think it's so important.

Like, you know, I'm from the south too, so I was raised like, my parent is right.

End of story.

Like, right.

I think it's so important because they have their own thoughts and feelings and emotions and their truths are different than ours.

You know, we can think that we're doing everything perfect and we're still missing some of the mark.

It doesn't mean we have to be perfect, but it does mean that it's okay to be reflective on what we're doing as a parent.

You know, and this is pretty, pretty.

It's a, it's a really interesting thing to really think about because you're teaching them normal human skills, like communication skills by sitting there and saying, hey, let's see each other's perspective now that we're both on a level playing field.

Like these are things that you miss really in a traditional like upbringing.

And that's why we have, you know, comes back to mental health problems that are just at large because we're not learning how to properly communicate.

And honestly, what's also really cool is that I am becoming an RTT therapist.

And part of that is how we are talked to, treated and taught and things that we perceive as a child, how that carries on into us as a adult.

So a child perceiving.

Oh, I was, every time I did something wrong, I was grounded.

My perception as an eight year old was that my parents didn't love me enough to allow me to do xyz.

Is that true?

No.

The parent loves you.

And that's possibly, probably why you were grounded is because they were trying to teach you and trying to help you do better.

But as an 8 year old, your perception was they don't love me.

And that is why I keep getting grounded to my room and grounded from my books or whatever.

And so it's really interesting to hear.

The flip side of it is that you are taking the time to learn that.

And I, I.

That really might solve so many problems if we really all took the time to really take the time to do that.

Yeah, I mean, I work with kids and I notice the thing that I have learned in the two and a half years that I've been working with, the company I work with is the kids that I work with that have involved parents.

The parents that are willing to like check their egos at the door and recognize that even though they love their kids and nothing is done out of malice, like we know that everything they're doing is out of love sometimes.

I mean, kind of my running joke with them is like, your kid is a Maytag washer that came with a Whirlpool manual.

So of course they're not going to work correctly until you understand how they're operating.

Like, we've got to get you to understand how they specifically are operating.

Right.

And so the parents that are so successful with the kids that we work with are.

Or the kids that are successful are the parents that are involved and they're willing to be like, hey, you know, maybe I was doing this wrong for them.

Yeah.

You know, and so these are the kids that are successful.

So I work specifically with anxiety and OCD at work, but, like, you know, parents unintentionally.

I know she hates it sometimes, but, like, when we were in Alaska, she did some exposures and some.

What?

We do exposure therapy.

Sorry.

So she did some exposure.

She's got mild social anxiety, as we all do.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's things like, you know, I. I understand that ordering this meal is really difficult for you at the moment.

I'm going to be here to support you, but I'm not going to do it for you.

Right.

You know, and so that's.

I think that's the big thing that so many people don't get with kids is like, we can treat our kids respectfully and still have our boundaries.

Right.

You know, we have a boundary in our house.

Like, we're not going to cuss at each other when we're angry, you know.

Yeah.

We're not going to treat each other disrespectfully.

We're not going to push boundaries.

And it.

Just because there's a consequence doesn't mean it has to be in a way that, you know, damages the relationship.

Yeah.

Now, I'm sorry.

No.

I was just gonna mention about the exposure therapy.

When I was young, I.

My dad.

I can't remember how he found out, but I was afraid to answer the phone or I didn't want to answer the phone or something like that.

And he was just like, oh, this is a thing that you have a hard time with.

So you're going to be my secretary now?

Yeah.

I feel like he could have.

I feel like he could have done it a little more gently, but basically he just gave me all of his, like, because he was a general contractor, and it was my job to suddenly start calling and setting up his appointments, and he'd come out to do an estimate and stuff like that, and I was just like.

It was.

It was terrifying for me at the.

In the beginning, but now it's like, hey, yeah, I can still, like, as an adult to this day, yes, I do have some social anxieties, but I can push through them.

That is hilarious because I, I had the same thing in, like, the restaurant.

There was this rule where the phone isn't going to.

Isn't allowed to ring more than twice.

And, like, it wasn't my job to answer the phone.

So, like, I'd always be like, oh, the phone's ringing.

I'm gonna run this way.

And so I got caught, like, you know, phone's ringing and I'm just going, la.

I'm gonna go this way.

And they're like, no, no, no.

Answer the phone.

And I was like, I don't.

I don't know what to say.

I don't want to.

Like, it's just really stressful.

I don't know.

And it's really stressful.

And so I was a smart ass and I answered the phone, I go, buddy the elf, what's your favorite color?

And then that didn't fly either.

So then they never made me answer the phone again.

But.

I, like, whenever I get a scam call, my favorite is welcome to Souls because that's our last name.

Restaurant.

And mortuary.

And mortuary.

You kill them, we grill them.

That's something my dad used to say.

That was one of the.

On the phone.

Oh, my God.

They never called back.

But also, if you're text before you call, please establish.

This is just like a, a, a norm now.

It should be.

Now that Ka.

Did I hear you say earlier that you and your husband are kind of on different ideals?

What did I say?

Kaya?

Oh, yeah.

Not you, Kaia.

I mean, I hope you're not married.

Totally fair.

Totally fair.

Now, did she say I want a wife?

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm so sorry.

I did not have to push a.

Husband on you, but please do not decide to get married right now because that's.

It's not fun.

Yeah, no.

She's not allowed to get married till 30.

And I've told either of them if I'm a grandmother before, like 55, they did something.

I support this.

Perfect.

Okay, so, Sam, did I hear you correctly earlier when you said that your husband's not 100% on board with the unschooling?

So what does that look like?

He wasn't in the beginning.

Absolutely was not.

He was so terrified.

And I think it's a little different too.

Like, so my parents are 80s kids.

Like, they're.

They had me young.

I. I had my kids young.

So my, my parents are like 80s kids.

And my husband's parents are a lot older, so, like, they're in their 70s and 80s, so he was raised very Differently.

And so he loved school.

There's a lot more to that story.

But he loved school.

And so I think one of the things he was really afraid of in the situation was like, we were taking that experience away from them, but it took him honestly, two or three years, like, of like every time I turned around.

Are they going to go back to public school?

When are they going back to school?

Like, interesting.

And then we gave them.

Was about two years in two and a half years.

And we gave them a standardized test because that was the rule in Maryland.

They had to take a standardized test every couple of years.

And we gave it to them, and they just did so well.

Like, I think that was kind of his moment where it was like, okay, well, this might be different, but it is working.

And then he's recently.

And honestly, I think in the last year sounds crazy.

But yeah, he.

Or yeah.

20.

20.

Oh, I was doing that the other.

The other month.

And I kept saying, it doesn't matter.

Anyway, so he was very like, like, honestly, like, he pushed.

And then as our son started to do better because we had that space to, you know, allow him when he was having an outburst, to regulate like we were.

We were.

Because I always.

I've always told him, I was like, I would rather.

I would rather my kids be behind in education and mentally and emotionally be able to do their life.

Life, like, Right.

That's more important to me because we can always catch up.

But it's.

Personally, I know how hard it is to go through seven years of, like, trying to process everything.

And so that was never something I wanted for them.

And so as he started to, like, notice now he's a huge advocate for it.

Like, my.

We have a.

A nephew that they're having some trouble.

And they.

They were called us, like, I would never forget.

They told me we were going to ruin our kids by homeschooling.

They told you that, too?

And now.

Wow.

Yeah.

They.

Now they're asking us about homeschooling because their son is struggling in high school.

Yeah.

And so now he's like.

He's probably still not as, like, involved as I am.

He had.

Definitely has his.

His things, but he loves that they're learning what they're interested in.

It makes so much more sense to him now.

Right.

Yeah.

So I think it's about letting people see the results.

Yeah.

And also recognizing the results are not always academic.

Like, you know, my My son being able.

When he left kindergarten, he was having a hard time even holding friends.

Okay.

And now the biggest issue we have is He's a normal 11 year old boy.

And if you like astrology, he's an Aries too.

So he, he has a temper.

So that's like our biggest issue right now is he's an 11 year old boy with a temper.

And so, you know, we're working on that one.

Yeah.

But, you know, he's.

He's got friends and most of the time he can regulate himself.

And I joke all the time.

He's got a bigger IQ EQ than most adults, so, you know, he can literally sit and be like, dad, I can see you're having a hard time.

Oh.

So.

And, you know, I think it's a combination of like, trusting the process and then him seeing some of the results.

And now he's like, I get it.

So you and your husband have like an agreed upon time of like, hey, give me two years or give me a year.

And if you agree that you see, like positive results, then like, let's keep trying it.

Or originally it was just the first year.

Okay.

Like I said, she's got a super late birthday.

She's an August kid, so she's got a really late birthday.

And then Tayton, you know, being April and also being adhd, knowing he's a little bit behind, like, executive functioning wise.

Yeah.

We were like, you know, it wouldn't hurt.

And then, I mean, even after the first year, he was like, he didn't.

I don't know if he loved the idea, but he didn't fight me.

Like, he was.

They were.

Yeah, he was growing.

Yes.

And so by the second year, again, I still don't think it was his first choice, but he was like, all right, well, whatever we're doing, at least we're not going to ruin him.

I mean, it's hard.

Like, you're, it's ingrained.

Like, it's scary.

And so, like, it's gonna be hard to.

When you're told no homeschooling or against.

The grain, it's bad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Going against the grain, doing anything that's.

Outside of the normal is terrifying.

Yeah.

And, you know, so kudos to him, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's very.

He's.

He doesn't do spreadsheets for fun, but I think he would enjoy doing spreadsheets for fun if he ever got into it.

Gotcha.

He's a hunter and a fisher and like that whole, like, process of, like doing something in A certain way, like, makes him very excited.

So I'll teach you how to make spreadsheets.

So.

Yeah.

So again, he didn't love it.

I would never tell you, like, if you're.

If your is, like, totally, absolutely against it, like, you know, see what you can do.

Like, take them.

We went to a homeschool convention last year with me.

Love that too.

Like, I think that was even just another.

He was already on board, but, like, it was, like, eye opening.

Like, these kids are smart, they're articulate.

Like, there's that old, like, you know, stereotype that homeschool kids are weird and they are, like, we're all weird.

And they, like.

I think it's like, I always.

I think it's the weird and, like, they don't have to conform.

Right.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Outside the box.

And it's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So now you are.

You coach people on.

How to.

What specifically are you coaching people on?

So I work for a company.

They're unfortunately not in Georgia, but it's a.

It's a healthcare company that specializes in pediatric OCD and anxiety.

So we take kids that, you know, everything from mild worries to refusing to go to school.

Okay.

And, you know, kids that aren't leaving the house or, like, their parents can't even leave for five minutes or be out of their sight.

Like, we take those kids.

Oh, wow.

And so I started that a couple of years ago, and this.

Sorry, real quick.

Is something that insurance would cover.

It is.

Yeah.

So they work with insurance.

I cannot wait for them to get to Georgia so that.

I just can think of so many people that would benefit from the program here.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's a unique model because we work with a therapist and then we coach, and then there's a psychiatrist.

So if they choose medication management, we have it.

But we also have a therapist who's doing kind of the heavy work.

But as a coach, what I love about coaching is I'm not focused on, you know, what happened to you in your childhood.

What I'm focused on is the things that you're good at.

What are your skills?

What can we use to motivate you?

What are your goals?

How do we get you from A to B?

Okay.

You know, got a kid right now that's refusing school.

Well, our goal right now is she wants to play soccer at recess with her friends.

Yeah.

I don't know if she could really care about going to school, but they're getting to school because she wants to play with her friends.

That's the goal, what motivates you?

And as a coach, what I love is being able to focus on their strengths as opposed to their deficits.

Right.

Because I think it's so super important.

I am.

I'm the type of person that, you know, I think differently, but it also allows me to, like, see things in my kids that nobody else was picking up on.

Yeah.

You know, it's an ADHD tree.

Like, being able to be super creative in how we're going to approach exposures or, you know, creating the exposures.

I'll never forget one of my favorite ones ever.

I had a kid call Barnes and Noble and ask for them to deliver a pizza.

It was the best thing ever because this kid was so terrified of it.

And the person on the other line was like, you know, we don't do pizza.

But what.

I hope you find it, because that sounds delicious.

Oh, that is so sweet.

Wait, was this on purpose or like.

Yeah, it was on purpose.

So, I mean, exposures.

That's what it is.

Sometimes we have them.

Do we.

We help face.

You know, with anxiety, the goal is never to get rid of it.

Like, anxiety is there.

It serves a natural function of keeping you safe.

Yeah.

So anxiety is the thing that keeps you from walking out in traffic.

Yeah.

But it kind of just goes into high gear sometimes.

And so what we're teaching our kids is anxiety doesn't always go away.

It's just we learn that our brain kind of, like, is trying to keep us safe.

That it's kind of a liar.

Yeah.

And we need to work on doing the thing anyway, so we start really low.

So, like, with your fear of the telephone.

Yeah.

It probably would have been like, hey, I'm going to have you answer my emails.

That would have been amazing.

And then they had emails.

When that's feeling more comfortable, I'm going to have you come in and answer two phone calls.

Yeah.

Or, you know, like, we would have.

I would have loved that.

I would have been like.

But I love it.

And I love being able to, like, bring the parents in because I remember what it was like to be that parent that was just like, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Like, my kid is different.

Nobody's telling me how to.

How to work.

How to fix him.

But I hate that word because we don't fix kids.

Right.

But, like, how to work with them.

Yeah.

I don't know what I'm doing with him.

And, you know, can I just really.

Quickly go back to the Barnes and Noble things?

Sorry.

Because I don't understand it.

Can we talk about pizza from a book story?

So you're trying to give, like, a wacky thing that would have no ill consequences is what it was.

Exactly.

So social anxiety is a lot of times, like, the fear.

Well, anxiety in general is the fear of an unknown.

Of an unknown future.

Like, we don't know how it's going to go.

So, you know, we think about these things.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't know if I would love doing that one either.

Sure.

But, like, we don't think about things like, you know, we think, oh, they're gonna.

What, they're gonna hate me.

Yeah.

Like, they're gonna yell at me.

And so what exposure therapy does is it teaches you that typically your worst case scenario is not gonna happen.

And occasionally it will, and it's okay because you'll be able to do okay with.

You'll be fine.

Okay.

So it just kind of.

It's like that's.

Yeah.

It's reducing the stimuli or what?

Okay.

So.

But yeah, no, that is so interesting.

I love it.

Yeah.

This.

This is.

I think this will be really helpful for a lot of people because as parents, we're always like, oh, are we doing something right or doing something wrong?

And.

And there's not really a perfect answer.

And what you're sharing is that there doesn't have to be a perfect answer.

The answer is figuring it out, like, what works best for the kids and respecting that.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think, you know, if you want to go back to, like, fail forwards.

Another big fail forward forward for me has been recognizing I have a lot of childhood trauma specifically around parenting.

And so for me, I've spent years trying to overcompensate.

Yeah.