Alicia joins Sam to offer a candid look inside The Truth also known as the 2x2's - a high-control religious system that receives far less public attention than it deserves. Drawing on her own lived experience, Alicia traces the gradual process of waking up to the inconsistencies within her faith community, the anxiety that accompanied that awakening, and the profound identity questions that surface when the world you were raised in begins to unravel. Together, Sam and Alicia explore the layered grief of leaving; not just a belief system, but a community, a family framework, and a sense of self that was built entirely within it. It's a conversation full of honesty and quiet resilience, and a powerful reminder that finding your way out is only the beginning of finding your way home to yourself.

Who Is Alicia?

Alicia is a mum and former member of the 2x2s, also known as The Truth or The Way, a secretive, international Christian sect with no formal name, no buildings, and a culture of silence that runs deep. Based in British Columbia, Canada, she's done with staying small and is now in the thick of rebuilding a life on her own terms. She's the host of We Are Unsaved, a podcast getting real about life after high-control religion.

Connect

• You can connect with Alicia over on IG - https://www.instagram.com/aliciaross.creative/
• Listen to We Are Unsaved

• You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts.

Might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us.

Welcome Alicia, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

I am excited about this conversation.

I love chatting to people and I'm always grateful for people who, you know, share so openly and vulnerably, particularly in spaces where sharing openly and vulnerably is, like, not encouraged. And so I'm always grateful for people who take their time to chat to me, especially I'm assuming it's your Friday evening.

So I'm very grateful for you spending your Friday evening with me.

Yes, it is Friday evening. I. Yeah, this is new, fairly new to me and I'm excited though. Yeah, lovely.

For a little geographic grounding for people. Where in the world are you at the moment?

I am in British Columbia in Canada.

Lovely. Okay, so I like to start these episodes with like a big, broad, vague question, which is where does your story start?

Oh, like, like from the time that I left or like wherever you want to start.

We will. Like I. Anybody who's listened to this show knows I will jump around anyway. But where feels important for you to start, I think.

Like I was, I was born and raised in, I guess when I was born. Like, I don't remember it obviously, but I guess it's just like a little bit of background that I was born and raised in. The two by two.

I call it the two by two system now or religion. And yeah. So I was like fourth generation, I believe. Fourth generation.

And so that was just always normal to me, the way that we did things, the things that we believed, everything. But my, like where. I guess the big part was leaving it, obviously.

Yeah.

And so that was just over two years ago now.

Okay.

So we. Yeah, my husband and I, we made the decision to leave the two by two system and.

Yeah.

And then that's deconstruction, I though, started now looking back, it was long before we actually left. Yeah.

I find for a lot of people there's a like a mentally in.

Like you're physically in, mentally out or coming out or moving out sort of process that can start a bit earlier than when you physically leave a group. So.

Yeah, yeah, just like the. Yeah, the little things that kind of pop up as you're in.

We called like gospel meetings where our pastors or workers like preached at us, spoke to us.

There was things that were said and I can't even like pinpoint specific things right now, but just like looking back, there was definitely things that I'd sit there and be like, huh? Like, this doesn't really add up or. I don't really agree with that.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that just kind of happened over time. But then it was just like a breaking point where you just.

For myself, I think I was learned to like, listen to my body because my body was actually telling. Like I would get super anxious, like, major anxiety as we were like getting ready to go to our meetings.

Yeah.

And I just couldn't ignore it anymore.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go back in time a little bit because I've had a couple of people.

The two by twos will not be unfamiliar to people who have listened to beyond the surface because I've had the lovely Laura McConnell Conti and. And more recently Tristan Phipps from New Zealand. But everybody experience is so vastly different. And I.

Even when I listened to your first episode of We Are Unsaved with your husband, even your. Yours and your husband's experience was different growing up in the two by Twos. And so what was your experience like?

Because some are more progressive or more conservative than others.

Yeah. So I would say that like, even between my husband and I, I was raised a little more like, progressive than he was.

My parents were just never as, like, hardcore as a lot of the other members. I guess there's Just a lot more like, balance.

Yeah.

For us. Like, I know I've.

I've heard other people's stories and they talk about, like, oh, I was never allowed to wear pants and I had to have my hair super long and all of those things. Like, that would be specifically for girls. Women.

Yeah.

I never. Like, my parents didn't really police that, I guess.

And then another thing is, is that my dad actually stopped being part of it when I was in my teens. So that was another thing that really caused there to be more, like, balance in our household.

So, like, we had a TV in our house, which was like a big no, no for most, two by twos. And then also on top of that, my brother left when he was 16, I think it was. So I think a big thing is, is my parents just kind of learned to.

How do I put this? Like, they obviously loved my brother. They love their son even though he wasn't part of it.

And that was like, the main thing for them was that, like, we love our son.

Yeah.

And I don't know, I think that a lot of people that have, like, a child that stops being part of it. Not all, but some learn to be more, like, balanced with things.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

There's definitely people who find it easier or they have the ability to choose their love for their child over the system that they're a part of. And there are some people who don't and don't do that.

And it's really horrific and painful when you say that, like, there was, like, more progression or they were less hardcore and. And things like that. Was that more in, like, behaviors, less in doctrine? Were they still as fundamental in the doctrines that you grew up in?

Yes. Like, they still. They still believe that, like, this was the way because that's what they were taught too, and that other ways were not the way.

And I remember even having, like, conversation with. I remember my dad, actually, and we had, like, some friends, obviously, that were not part of it. Maybe that's not obviously there.

That was, I guess maybe another unique thing for us is that we actually were, like, did have good friends that weren't part of it, and my parents did, too. And.

But I do remember us saying, like, oh, these people are such good people, but if only they would just be, like, honest with themselves that they would feel that something is missing and that they need what we have, because that's like, what we were taught was, like, what we have is what everybody needs. And if everyone is truly honest with themselves, they will say, like, oh, I'M missing something, and I need what they have.

Yeah. Yeah. So there was. So there was still that us versus them mentality, right?

Yes. Yeah, definitely.

But it was just as far as, like, the rules or the unwritten rules that they were a little more like, oh, we don't care if our daughter wears pants instead of a skirt. And I wore makeup a bit, like, when I was a teenager. Dyed my hair a couple times.

So, yeah, I. I would say I definitely had more of, like, a progressive.

Yeah.

Upbringing than others that I have heard their stories. Yeah.

Did that mean that, like, you were.

Were you ever treated differently by the other people in your community, knowing that you were, in their eyes, potentially breaking, like, a number of rules, so to speak?

Yeah, I. I always say, like, I felt the eyes on me, you know, like, the judgy eyes. And I actually did have. My mom told me I had one pretty good friend growing up that was part of what we were part of.

And when I was in my teens and I was like, starting to kind of, like, wear makeup and all those things, her mom actually did say to my mom that I was, like, not a good influence on her daughters. And my mom told me that she had said that about me. Oh, yeah.

What was it like for you as a teenager to hear that?

Oh, good. Yeah. Didn't feel very good to hear that. Yeah. Especially since, like, I knew that I was a good person, like, in here.

Yeah.

And that actually I did nothing wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

And I guess maybe that was also part of my, like, deconstruction was back then being like, well, I'm, like, the same person, and I'm, like, still a good person, and who cares about those things? And even for me, having, like, good friends that weren't part of what we were part of, I would think about that, too.

I'd be like, well, these people are really good people, and, like, I got to know their families really well and everything. I'm like, there's no way that, like, these people are evil or that they're going to hell or whatever, but I just pushed those.

I guess I just pushed those thoughts away or buried them deep down.

Yeah.

And because the fear that was into us was greater. Like, I actually. I actually came or left. Like, I stopped what we call professing. So, like, I guess that's the.

How you formally announce or proclaim that you're part of it. So I stopped professing so I couldn't, like, take part in the meetings where you, like, speak and everything. So I. Yeah, I left for a Little bit.

And the thing that brought me back was fear because I was driving to work one day and I was like, what if I get in a car accident and I die outside?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fear based indoctrination is so important, I think, to, to acknowledge in like this process of like recovery of coming out of like a high control system. Because it is like you said, either the one of core reason as to why people stay or why people go back.

Because the fear is such a visceral feeling and experience within ourselves. You mentioned that like the questions and things like that would just sort of be pushed down or put away or ignored.

What were you taught would happen if you asked those questions? No.

Yeah. I don't know if we were ever like taught what would happen. It was more like if you doubt then you don't have like strong faith.

Yeah.

So you need to just have faith was basically the response to things. Yeah. So then if those questions came up, you're like, oh, I'm doubting now, so that's bad, I shouldn't be doubting.

And I, my assumption is that that would have been framed as like, that's a you problem. Not the actual like faith or the belief system or the doctrines. Like there's nothing wrong with that.

It's a you problem that you have these questions and these doubts and there's something fundamentally within you that needs fixing. Yeah, yeah.

Like, because if you're questioning then your faith isn't strong enough. You need to be doing more to strengthen your faith. You need to read more, you need to pray more, you need to all the things.

It's a very much a like works based.

Yeah.

System religion. You need to be doing all these things.

I mean, speaking of faith, like what, what was your connection to the divine that you were being taught about, like God? Did you feel like you had a connection, the faith based connection, or did it feel like just something that you were existing within?

I have never thought about that before, honest. Like now looking back, I'm like, I was just going through the motions. Yeah.

Because I remember like, I remember even telling my husband like not that long, like since we've been, We've been married 10 years now, almost 10 years since we've been married. So I remember telling him like, how come things aren't going well for us and all. Like I had all these questions, like I'm doing all these things.

I'm being who I'm supposed to be as like a woman in this religion. And it doesn't seem like things are working out for me or for us. And I like. Yeah.

So I don't know, as if I ever, I mean when, so when I was the first time I professed when I was 8.

Such a great developmental age.

Oh my goodness. That's actually, interestingly enough, that's the age that we, that my actually no, my son was seven when we left.

Yeah.

Because we kind of knew that that was coming. Eight years old was like the pressure of when you're supposed to. Yeah. Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked. Oh, it's fun.

Raging ADHD host over here. So I'll get sidetracked about 10 times in this. Thank you. It's totally fine.

So yeah, at that age. So when I was 8, I remember thinking like, oh, God was speaking to me and that's why I need to like profess or make my choice.

Which wasn't a choice because it's either you're in it or you're going to hell. So what kind of a choice is that? Yes. And I'm getting sidetracked again. But anyway, yeah.

So at that point I remember thinking like, oh, it's God speaking to me. But now looking back, I'm like, it was pressure because that same friend that I was talking about that I was friends with, it was part of it.

She, I can't remember now if she had professed before me or if she had told me that she was going to. So now looking back, I'm like, it was probably like me feeling like, oh, my friend's doing it, so I gotta do it too.

And then mixed with like pressure of that was typically around the age that you would make your choice. So yeah, now looking back, I, I, I don't think that God was speaking to me ever.

I think it was more pressure and getting like caught up in feelings while you were in a gospel meeting or a convention or whatever where you're just like completely immersed in all of it.

Yeah. Yes. And like I like therapist nerding out here for a moment.

Like your nervous system is just completely overwhelmed by like all of the different things.

Not to mention the, for an eight year old, an eight year old just wants to fit in and just wants to belong and just wants to, you know, do the things that their friends are doing. It's the most normal, like developmental thing. But also I imagine knowing that your friend had either just done it or was about to do it.

I imagine there was probably like a, well, what are people going to think if I don't do it? Like, are they going to think that there's something wrong with me. Or like was there any like do.

And you might not even remember like you were eight for goodness sake.

So like, like is that likely something that was going on like, because I imagine it probably continued into your teenage years of like everybody that sort of eyes on me, like what are people going to think if I do or don't do something?

Yeah, that, that would definitely have been part of it. Like I said, just like the pressure and even having like family, like cousins, aunts, uncles, part of it and like very much part of it and yeah.

Just wanting to like fit in with. I remember like even being at like our conventions which are like the once a year, four and a half day as my husband called it.

Totally immersive experience. Yeah.

Being at those and all the other like kids around your age or as you got older, like teenagers and everything, just like, how do I fit in with these people? And if you didn't act and dress and everything the way that they did, as I said previously, you would feel the eyes on you for sure.

Yeah, yeah. I mean in terms of like you're sort of talking about teenage years as well in particular around like how you dress and things like that.

And I imagine it wasn't this language that was specifically used because it's a pretty evangelical term. But how was relationships and sex and modesty and like anything that would, we would sort of like encompass under purity culture.

What was that like for you as a teenager?

I was definitely a rebel in their eyes.

So I guess some inside now would be like, well, she was always just destined to never be part of it and leave because she was not doing the right things or whatever. When in reality I was just being a normal teenager.

Yes.

But I still had that like that message, like. Message. What is the word I'm trying to use here? Messaging. Like we heard from like the platform which was like the pulpit. Is that the word that.

Yeah, yeah.

That was just like so like in you even if your parents didn't tell you or. Yeah, it was just like you heard that and you're like, okay, I'm wrong if I do that.

So I dressed less modestly than I guess the typical two by two woman. But when I did I felt like wrong.

Yeah. My instinct was to go, did you think you were doing something wrong though?

Yeah, for sure. I just. Because of that messaging, it's just like you're not, you're supposed to cover up and like even I remember my.

I'm going to tell on myself here. I remember being at A convention, and I saw a girl wearing a dress that was like, considered short for our crowd.

Yeah.

And I remember even saying, like, oh, how could she wear that? Like, it's such a. How did I put it?

Like, it's a temptation to the young brother workers, which are like our ministers or whatever, because they're supposed to not have sex or not have a partner, anything. So I remember saying that myself. And that was just like language that we heard.

Yeah.

For all the time. From other people. It was like we were supposed to control how they felt or responded or whatever, which is not our job at all.

Yeah, yeah.

But the fact that I actually, like, I look back and I'm like, I can't believe I said that.

I mean, it's really interesting because, like, often it's so common because sometimes the control doesn't come from the people who are in charge. Like, it, it starts that way, but then we have like, what we would call, like the sideways portion of control, which is the. All of the extra eyes.

Like, it's. Everybody is looking at everybody and is judging everybody and is like monitoring everybody.

And it's like the stark difference between like, typical versus group based coercive control. Like, there is the sideways. You don't always need a leader's eyes on you. You just need anybody's eyes on you.

Because everybody is kind of monitoring everybody. I imagine it's so, like, inbuilt in you.

Yeah. And I, I now think that, like, women are almost the worst for it within these systems.

Because part of it for me, I think, is because they are deep down jealous that somebody else can, like, express themselves and wear that what they want to wear, but also just not happy with, like, themselves or don't love themselves. So then how do you love. Show love to other people, like true love to other people when you don't love yourself.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was about to quote RuPaul the drag queen around, like, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love someone else?

But I mean, there's also like an element I think of, like, if I'm gonna be held to these standards. Well, I'm damn well gonna hold you to these standards also.

Yeah, like, that sort of, like, there is not, like, one rule for me and you get to do something different. And I think that's probably like an extension of that jealousy piece that you mentioned.

Yeah.

Because I made a. I made a post not that long ago about, like, two by two men telling women how to and whatever, and somebody commented and they Were like, women were just as bad, maybe even worse for it. Like the. The sister workers, like the female preachers workers. But because. Likely, because the reasons we are just discussing.

Yeah.

Like, if I have to be. What's the word? Suppressed, Then. Then you should be too.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And. And I think also, like, sometimes it comes through the women via the men as well. Like, the men tell, or they're like, whoever, or.

And then the women are the ones who are delivering it as well. Sometimes they're kind of like the scapegoat for, like, the men in the system as well. Sometimes. There's a whole load of reasons, I think.

But, yes, my experience also is that the women were far worse at the judging and the monitoring than the men as well. There was just an extension of it. So.

Yeah, I think maybe, like, the. The male workers would say things like, from the platform.

Yeah.

But as far as I would say, it would be more likely that a sister worker would actually say something directly to another woman.

Yeah.

In my experience, anyways, that could be different for somebody else.

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I. I know again from your first episode, you did the very, like, good thing and you married within the group.

Cor.

Which is what you are supposed to do, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

What was that like for you? Because I imagine, like, marriage is seen as, like, what your next step is to do, right? Marriage, have babies.

Yeah.

What was that like in terms of, like, not, like, having choice, but your trajectory or your direction or your path is kind of set for you without any choice?

Yeah. I would say I. I always wanted kids.

Like, I had the dolls and I would play mom all the time and, like, would take my doll, like, to the mall with us, and my mom would have to fold it while I was, like, going to the bathroom or whatever. So that was always in me. Like, I don't think I was pressured into doing something that I absolutely did not want to do. Yeah.

But as far as how soon I had kids was definitely something that was probably because of what we were part of. Because that was, like you said, I was just the steps. Like, you get married and you have kids, and often people have many kids.

Yes, we just had two, which is something that we decided on right away.

But, yeah, looking back now, I would have waited to have kids and to just, like, I don't know, grow, grow up more, experience things more, have, like, a career for myself. All of that are things that I look back now, I love my boys so much, and I like. But I wish that I could have, like, had a career or something before.

So that we had that. Even when it comes to, like, financial stability, it's a big thing having.

We've also talked about, like, him having all the pressure to be the one who's bringing in, like, the income.

Yeah.

And that's something that's fairly common in the 2x2 system is like, man is very successful in his career, whatever it is, and he's the one who's bringing in all the money. And for me, I look at my husband and I'm like, that's a lot of pressure on somebody. And that's not fair that that's just like, thrown on to you.

Like, how come the wife. Or like, how come the woman can't be the one who has the career?

Yeah.

If that's what you guys decide, that's what you want.

And I can't speak for, like, all couples all across the board within the two by two system, but I think most would agree that that's, for the most part, that's the way that it is.

Imagine that like those traditional gender roles sort of like, would have played out in, I imagine, far more spaces in your relationship and your marriage than just who is. Who is bringing in the money, essentially. I imagine it was a whole host of different spaces.

Yeah.

And I. I think we mentioned in our first episode, though, like, I feel very lucky that I. I did marry who I did marry, because he was never like, you have to stay home with the kids and you got to do all the housework and you. Like, he was never like that. He. He has improved in the last few years.

We love improvement.

There's always room for improvement. But he was never like I. Compared to even. I mean, it's a different generation, but it's still very much like that in our generation too.

But I look at, like, the way my grandparents were.

Yeah.

And there was the very strict gender roles.

And I know even people my generation where it's like, if the woman wants to go after something that they're passionate about, you can see the man is almost like, to me, it's intimidated and kind of wants to, like, pull them back a little bit and be like, yeah, rein it in, rein it in.

And I mean, intimidated. Yes. But I think also, like, the.

The way that traditional, like, conservative masculinity is framed is that if that's where their masculinity comes from in terms of, like, protecting and providing and being like the man of the house. So speak.

If a woman wants to go out and do something outside of that, I think there is like an emasculation that happens based on their image of what masculinity is supposed to look like, which is him powerful and protector and her subservient and submissive. So it sounds like that wasn't the dynamic you were in though.

No.

Like looking back now, there was, there was, there was definitely things like, I don't know, he would not consider my feelings sometimes as far as like being at home with the kids all day and I need help, like without having to ask for it and like not getting to the point where I'm like, I need help, like step in and help. But also that's just like you're, that's just like what you should be doing. Like everybody should be. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Be a parent.

Yeah.

You're not a babysitter, you're a parent. Like. Yeah. And like he's, he'd be totally okay with me saying this because he admits it himself that there were definitely.

There was room for improvement. Yeah.

I mean you both came from the same indoctrinated system. Like nobody is ever going to be like a, a well informed, like individual coming out of a system where you were so conditioned.

We would expect hiccups, I imagine. But we also, again, we love improvement and growth.

Ye. Yeah.

And awareness. Awareness is always nice. Yes. So. Yeah.

Okay.

I, I am curious to sort of like if we shift forward a little bit to the, the moments where you are anxious in the meetings and you are noticing that something is not right. What was that like for you? Because I imagine it would have been really confusing and really overwhelming.

Yeah, I think I kind of knew though at that point why I was feeling that way because I had already started like major deconstruction at that point.

And so I knew that it like I could recognize that it was because people like the messaging of people in the meetings, like especially anything that was like us versus them mentality was really starting to bother me. And then also like being a mother and having a seven year old at the time and I'm like, he's, he's absorbing. Yeah.

These messages and I'm not okay with that. But the other part of it too was I'm sure you've heard from other people that have left the two by twos about the like sexual abuse that came.

Yeah.

Up. That was about just under a year before or maybe just a year before we actually left is when it kind of came up like the big breaking news.

So I think even starting then it was just like I just Got more and more uncomfortable because I'm like, how do I sit and be in these meetings? Which is, to me is supporting this system. As long as I'm attending, I'm supporting the system.

Even if the people that we're going to meeting with haven't done anything wrong, I'm still supporting this whole system. And that just didn't sit right with me. Yeah. Because more and more came forward about their abuse and everything.

And I was on, like, social media, like, groups and stuff, where I was learning about all of this. And it was just more and more I was like, man, I can't do this anymore.

Yeah. What was that like for you?

Like, just as, like, a human who has kids and who is like, hearing about these horrific stories about the system that you have existed in for your whole entire life.

It was wild, like. Yeah. To learn that first of all, the first, the first, like, big news that came out was what we would call one of our overseers.

And I had never even heard of him before, and it was like he was the overseer of the overseers or something. Like, there was all these levels that I hadn't even, like, heard of. And so that was a big thing.

But it just like, yeah, it just totally turns your world upside down because you're like, hold on. We are like, the way. And we're God's chosen people, and we've been told that these people were sent by God.

Yeah.

And now we're hearing all these, like, horrific things. And some people I know had a hard time believing it at first, but for some reason, for me, I was like, no, I believe this 100%.

Why do you think that is? Because you're right. A lot of people do sort of like mental gymnastics their way out of it. That that can't be true.

Why do you think you didn't do that?

I honestly don't know when I struggle with that. I was, like, talking about that to my therapist the other day. I was like, I have a hard time with, like, how come I see it all and I get it.

And I have family members and used to be friends that are still in it that are just like, deny, deny, deny, and won't have any, like, if you try and talk to them, but they're not having any of it. And I'm like, how, Like, I, right off the bat was like, I believe this. And I, I, I don't know why.

Maybe because of my, like, questions that I had before that this was like, oh, okay, so I wasn't crazy for questioning things and, yeah, like, this is real. There is something off about all of this.

Do you feel like you had the. The level of. I'm trying to find the right.

Right word here.

Devotion that some people have towards the leaders of the group? Yeah, I mean, that. That was my initial instinct.

Like I said, I was. I was a rebel, you know? Like, I just. I don't know. Other people would, like, okay, here's an example of this.

So the workers would, like, come and stay in our homes because they were homeless. They didn't have homes of their own. And when they stayed with us, okay.

When we were, like, first married, I was a little more, like, devote and, like, devoted to them and, like, make sure things are good when they came to our home and everything.

But, like, I remember, like, my grandma and, like, other women that would, like, get out to find China when they came and, like, make a big roast and everything. And I. I never did that. I was like, we're having tacos.

Yeah.

Which actually, they really enjoyed what I cooked because I think maybe it was something that they didn't have very often. Maybe they. I actually had workers tell me that they kind of got, like, sick of having this big meal all the time.

They wanted just something more basic, I guess. But then, like.

And let's say, like, three years before we left, two years before we left, the year before we left, when we had worker stay with us, I just didn't give a fuck anymore.

Yeah.

I was like, I'm wearing my pants when they're here. I don't care. Like, this is who I am. I'm a mom of two little boys.

Yeah, you're in sweatpants.

Yeah. Like, I'm gonna be comfy.

And if you're staying with us, I am not getting up to, like, make you breakfast and, like, serve you and everything for every meal of the day. When I'm here at home.

Yeah.

On my own with two boys that are very busy. Like. Yeah. So I. Yeah, I just. I saw them as just people. I was like, why are. Why are people intimidated by these people?

Or, like, feel like they need to act a certain way around them?

And even, like, I would wear jeans to our, like, potlucks that we would have, and, like, the workers would be there, and I show up in my jeans, and no one else was in jeans. Like, jean skirts for women. But, yeah, I was in pants because I just. Yeah, I just viewed them as other humans.

I mean, you might have answered your own question in real time in terms of, like. Because I think a lot of the Time.

Part of the reason why someone doesn't believe abuse allegations, particularly around leaders, is because their view of them is so, like, unapologetically devoted, like, they can do no wrong. They are men of God.

They are like, they are a direct, you know, representation of, of the divine, like, how it's just impossible that this would ever happen. And they're not then viewed as just ordinary people anymore. They are like God, like, almost. And so is I.

That's why I asked the question, because I assumed, based on what you had said, I was like, I can't imagine that you are looking at these people and seeing them as an extension of the, the God that you are serving, but as just like humans.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I remember, I remember, like, my grandparents would travel, like, drive so far just to go to a convention just to see like, these certain workers and everything. I was just like, oh my goodness. Like, even when they were old, like late 70s, 80s, and I'm like, Jared, why?

Like, they're just a human talking up there.

Yeah.

I still, I definitely still believe that they were like, sent by God because that's what we were taught.

Like, why else would somebody, like, give up their life and not be able to have a partner and all of that career, anything and like, not bring in an income or anything if they weren't sent by God? That was kind of my thinking then, I guess, but I just never understood what's the big deal?

Like, why do we have to treat them any differently, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely.

When you started deconstructing and you were sort of like wading through all of those big questions and all of the, like, the big emotions around the abuse allegations and all of that sort of thing, were you and Kevin on the same page with all of that or, like, were you deconstructing in real time together or were you on different timelines at that point?

Say? We have been on slightly different timelines up until three to six months ago. Maybe a little longer than that. I just. Yeah, I don't know.

I think part of that, though is because of, like, for him, pressure of like, living close to his family. We went to his parents for our like, Sunday morning meeting. Dad's an elder, so I think that might be why he was a little bit like, behind me.

But he, like, went through, went through it in college. He. Yeah, he was a normal college aged man.

So, yeah, I think just like, actually leaving was a little bit harder for him because of the, the whole like, family pressure and all of that. And like, what are they gonna Think what's their reaction gonna be, all of that? But I don't know. We've been fairly, like.

I think I deconstructed to the point of being very confident in the fact that I. I don't even know where I stand right now, to be honest. But I'm more confident in the fact that I don't know if there's a God and I don't really care at this point.

And I've been more, like, vocal about everything. He just kind of started having.

I guess it would be, like, the confidence to speak more openly about it and everything and share about it more within the last, like, three months.

Yeah.

Yeah. But for. I don't know, I kind of had a hard time telling him, though, that I didn't want to go anymore.

Yeah.

And not that he, like, I didn't feel safe telling him. It was just. I kind of knew because of his family being so involved in it that it was going to be that much harder for him.

Yeah.

I think that's where my, like, fear of telling him came from.

Yeah.

And even. Even just like, the fear of actually telling him that I don't really know if I believe in God anymore too.

Yeah.

Because your whole. Our whole relationship, we both believed in God and went to meetings together and all of that, so it's such a.

Big part of the connection.

Yeah. Yeah. But now that, like, I've told him where I stand and he feels the same way as I do, very similarly, we can just, like.

I don't know, our connection has gotten, like, better. Our relationship has gotten better, because I feel like.

I feel like the reason is because we can both be our, like, selves and we've both told each other, like, exactly how we feel as far as, like, our beliefs and everything, and we love each other and even though we don't believe in God anymore or. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's so.

I think the heartbreaking reality for so many couples who get married within the system, because that's who you're supposed to marry, is that sometimes when those beliefs shift or change or are completely eradicated, you don't like the person that you are married to or, like, if the beliefs were the only thing that held you together. That's such a heartbreaking reality for so many people. But it sounds like.

And I mean, I can hear it in the episode that you recorded, you actually like one another still, which is lovely.

I know I laughed at myself when I said that. I was like, we actually like each other.

Yes. I mean, like, we laugh but the reality is that, that that' the case for so many other relationships.

So.

But it doesn't make it any easier to have those big conversations that potentially have the, the ability to change the makeup of your relationship. Right?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. It. I just feel really lucky that, that we are on the same page because we have actually talked about that. We're like, if we.

If one of us still believed in like and wanted to be part of the two by two religion and the other, like, if that was me, that I didn't want to be part of it and he did. I don't know how I would navigate that at all. And even like when you bring.

And then you have kids in the picture too, it's like, I don't want my kids to be part of it. But then your spouse wants them to be part. Like, how do you now? I. I don't know how you navigate that.

Yeah, it's very tricky.

It's very, very tricky.

It's probably like the mildest way that I can put that.

I am curious though, because, like, one of the things that can be really tricky when you are deconstructing on different timelines and you are having these realizations that, like, I don't want to be part of this. Maybe I don't believe in God anymore. Like all of these things. And he is not having that.

Did you feel alone in some of.

Those things for a brief amount of time? Because I did open up to him about like, not really knowing what I believe.

Yeah.

Fairly, fairly quickly. I think I felt more alone before we actually left when I was like thinking about telling him that I wanted to leave.

Yeah.

Because it's like, this is my best friend.

Yeah.

And I, like, I want to share this with him, but it was really difficult. So when I actually did tell him, it was just like this big weight was lifted off of me.

Yeah.

And I was like, now I can share this with my person.

And.

Yeah. It just, it felt really good. I think the hardest thing for me was telling my parents that I didn't believe.

Yeah.

Not in. My parents have actually. They left the two by twos, like two months after we did.

We love that for them.

Yes, we do. It's. It's great. But after we left and I was like deconstructing more and more.

The hardest thing for like, it was really hard for me to tell them that. I, like, I'm agnostic now.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people that leave, in my experience, a lot of people that leave still are very much like believers. Yeah.

Stay in some world of Christianity.

Right? Yeah.

That's what I've seen as well. Yeah.

So I would say that's where I felt more alone is being like that person that. Because, I mean, I have, I have friends that are. Have left too, but have stayed, like, within Christianity.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I just, I don't know. I can't anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it is nice to connect with other people that have left that are kind of in the same, like, where I'm at with beliefs now. That's been really nice. Not anybody, like, in person, like, but even over social media. That's what I love about social media.

It's connected me with a lot of great people and it's been very helpful over the last few years.

Absolutely.

I think for, for people coming out of high control systems, social media is just like a wealth of knowledge in some ways, as well as like, being able to connect with people who have had similar experiences. For all its many faults is. Social media also has a lot of really great things. So it's, it's a balance with that.

Yeah.

I am, I'm curious, what was all of this like for you internally, like, into, like, those internal questions, like, the feeling alone around, like, your family, like, big, big shifts, like, even just sort of going like, I don't, I don't know what I believe to. I don't know that I believe there is a God to, like, I don't actually give a fuck if there is. Like, I don't care. Like, there's such huge shifts.

Like, what did it feel like for you to navigate that?

There's a lot and a lot more than I realized.

Yeah.

I think, I think maybe this comes from being part of the two by twos where you don't talk about your feelings and you just push everything down and you're like, I'm fine, everything's fine, it's great. Yeah.

I just kind of like pushed through it and didn't really realize how big everything I was going through really was until you start talking to other people or like. I think the first thing was like, I started following some therapists just on like, social media too.

And I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I've been through. Yes. This is a big deal and there's so many layers to it. Yeah.

And then even just like telling when I started, like, sharing more even on social media about my experience and what we came from and all of that, when people message me and they're like, holy, I'm like, oh, yeah, it is pretty insane what we went through.

Yeah.

And what we came from. And I need to give myself some more grace. And. Yeah.

And anytime I, like, describe, like, the beliefs and, like, what a week was like for us in the system and everything, a lot of people that have no idea about it are just like, yeah. Their response is like, holy shit, that's. That's crazy. And so when you hear those responses, you're like, oh, yeah, that was a lot.

I didn't realize it, but it was because it was just your normal. Right. Like, to us. Yeah.

What else are you to know? Absolutely.

And then you're like, now, now I understand, like, why I had such anxiety and all of these things looking back. And I'm like, it was. Yeah, like I said before, it was my body screaming at me, like, yeah. I say, get the out. Get out of this.

Absolutely.

And like, it's so, like, you're part of a system that, like, not just essentially taught you to suppress your emotions, but also to disconnect from your body.

So the fact that, like, you could recognize that something there and you might not have had language or understanding as to what it was or why it was there, but even just, like, the recognition that your body is, like, screaming at you is probably, like, a really big indication that the response in your body was enormous for you to be able to recognize it just because of that level of, like, body disconnection that is so common in any, I would say, in any high control system particularly. But there is something really interesting.

There's something really lovely about having community of people who understand the context and who have lived potentially something similar to what you have.

But there's equally something comforting about having people around you who have never done that and who can say the things of, like, oh, you know, that's not normal. Like, you know that that's batshit crazy, right? Like, that. That's like, that's not it. That's not where it is at.

And like, there is something really comforting, I think, around having people who have never been a part of that type of system around you as well, so that you're also not drowning in it. Like, you should have the ability to live and to not have every conversation be surrounded with your history and what you're navigating.

Sometimes it's nice to just laugh and talk about something completely mundane and irrelevant.

Yeah.

And I think, like, going back to those feelings that I had, my mom has told me that, like, ever since I've been younger, I kind of like, I Sensed when things were off. Like, an example that she always brings up is, I went to a dermatologist when I was like, like, preteen age, I would say.

And after the appointment, I told my mom I didn't want to go back to see him because, like, he was. I get your dermatologist term, dermatologist, but you don't need to be, like, here all the time. Like, I just felt like he was in my space too.

And then I think it was like, a year. It might have been more than that.

Like, a year or two later, my mom saw in the newspaper that he was not able to practice anymore or something because there was something to do with, like, sexual relations with a. With a patient or something. And I was like, oh, interesting.

Yeah. I mean, that is so interesting.

I always am just, like, so in aura of, like, how our body can, like, sense things and know things when we don't necessarily have language for it. It's. It will never not be cool to me.

Yeah, yeah. Don't. This is my other thing. Like, how I just knew. Like, I believed it and I knew it was wrong and everything. I don't. I think that maybe this is.

My theory is maybe some people are so, like, in it that they lose that. Like, maybe they've, like, pushed away those feelings of, like, this is wrong for so long. Like, their.

Their gut instinct for so long that they don't even recognize it anymore. And that's scary to me.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know those systems, if you're in survival mode and you're so dissociated, then you don't have a gut instinct.

Like, you can barely connect to your hunger cues, let alone your feelings and intuition and anything like that. So it is. They thrive on disconnection. The more disconnected you are, the easier you are to control, realistically.

But, yeah, that's so true. Yeah.

What has it been like for you, like, in the last couple of years, sort of finding language for what you've experienced, being able to use language, like indoctrination and control and. And like, even, you know, some people use the word cult in terms of, like, groups like this using the word system.

Like, what has it been like for you to find language for that?

It's been really good for me to be able to like. And. And that language kind of came from when I started following different people on social media and stuff.

And they were like, these terms would come up and I'm like, yes, that's it. That's the word that I like describes how I've been feeling or.

Yeah, I've just learned a lot from, from other people sharing their experiences even too. And it's, it's been, it's been really good to.

Yeah.

Just overall positive. Yeah, they, they like to say that when you leave everything just goes like terrible. But it's couldn't be further from.

I mean there's obviously things that you face that are hard. It's difficult, but there's so much good that comes from it too.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, and I think it's also nice to recognize that the difficulty, like the difficult things that happen are not some like spiritual like existential punishment, but actually just because life is hard sometimes, like being human just is shitty at times and that that's not because of, of you know, some divine smiting or because you are not in the right group or something like that.

Yeah.

Just as lie.

I like when we were in it, shitty things happened all the time. And then when we were in it and shitty things happen, they're like, oh well, we just gotta trust it's God's plan for us.

And then you aren't able to have like the emotions that you want to have because you're like I want to feel angry about this, I want to feel sad about this. But you're like well you're not really supposed to because this is God's plan for me. So I need to just accept it and move on.

But then when you leave and shitty things happen, they're like oh, it's because you left.

Yes.

And I figured that out very quickly. I'm like eh, no, yeah, absolutely. This is like their way of controlling people and trying to keep them in. Yeah.

And actually my husband had somebody reach out to him. That's still part of it not that long ago. And it like pissed me off when he sent me the message that the guy sent him.

It was like I noticed that you're having a hard time or something because like my husband, husband's been more like vulnerable on social media to like show that men have emotions and we can share our struggles and everything and we need to normalize this. And the fact that he took my husband doing that and expressing his feelings and everything and many people. Message. Yeah.

And sent him a message being like, oh, I think it's because you need to come back to God. Like I was fucking furious. I mean I just, I don't blame you.

I just like had an immediate eye roll reaction.

I was just like, I think it's because I was in major like defense mode, like defending my Husband, like, how could you? Like, he's being vulnerable and he's opening up and everything.

And I know though, I've talked to a friend of mine that has also left and she said when she first left, she was like, she purposefully did not post anything on social media that was like negative in her life at all because she didn't want people to be like, see, this is what happens when you leave. Yeah. It's so.

It's so easy for them to do that.

Because the reality is, is if you've come from a high control system, reintegrating into, you know, quote, unquote, normal society can be really hard and, you know, disorienting and like, of course, if you vocalize that, there are certain people who are going to weaponize that and use it against you as like some form of spiritual proof that you have done.

The wrong thing and made the wrong decision.

Yeah.

What has it been like for you to be able to just make decisions because you want to and choose things that you might not have been able to before? Things like, you know, I can see you've got a couple of tattoos. I saw the other, like, not too long ago you got your nose pierced.

And like, what has it been like for you to just make those decisions about your body and. And things that you just get to enjoy because.

Because you can.

It's extremely freeing, like, liberating. It's like, I can do whatever I want and nobody's telling me.

Yeah.

What I can and can't do with my own body specifically. Like, it's just wild to me and it makes me so annoyed. Like before old white men in suits were telling us what we were supposed to.

How we were supposed to do our hair. And like, this is recent too. I was talking to someone who's actually still part of it, who is struggling with it. Yeah. She told me that recently.

Yeah.

They were told at a gospel meeting that women need to have their hair long and done up. And I was like, what century are we living in?

Yeah. Yeah.

That this is. We're still doing this. Really?

Yeah.

So, yeah, for me. And even like, I got my nose pierced just because. Yeah, why not? Actually, my sister in law, she won a gift, like a gift certificate.

And it was like a pay it forward gift certificate. So you were supposed to like give it to someone.

So she gave it to me and I was like, well, I already have my ears pierced, but I kind of have always sort of wanted to get my nose pierced, so.

Well, I mean, the worst thing that's going to happen is that, like, if you hate it, you take it out and it will heal and it will close up and it doesn't matter. But there is, like.

Like, so many, like, big, weighty reasons why you can't do all of these things when realistically, they can just be fun expressions of yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the biggest thing is, like, you have your own. I felt like when we were in it, it was like, everyone's the same.

Like, it's so boring, really. And I actually remember telling my boys, like, when we were still part of them, like, how boring would it be if everyone was the same?

Because we were just talking about, like, how some people have, like, different ha. Hair colors and just like. So, yeah, I told them, like, how boring would it be if everything. Everyone was the same?

And then now I'm like, I was telling them that before we even left without really realizing that I was kind of being the same as every other. Like, what you're supposed to look like as a woman when you were part of it. So now you can, like, truly be your own own person.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's great to be able to show our boys that, too. Like, be who you want to be, not who you're, like, pressured into being.

And I think that's the biggest reason, too, for us, like, choosing to raise our kids without, like, religion, too, is, like, who do you want to be without any kind of pressure of, like, who you're supposed to be.

Yeah.

Because it's a beautiful thing when. I don't know, even already for them to, like, see them developing into who they are as unique individuals.

Yeah.

And to have young boys being raised to say, like, hey, emotion is okay, and, hey, like, you know, it's not a woman's responsibility for what you think and how you act.

And, like, it's like raising young boys to, you know, to actually have, like, a healthy idea of, like, what masculinity is and that their whole identity does. Doesn't define. Isn't defined by it. And there's so many.

There's so many options available to children when they're raised to be themselves and to not be a cookie cutter version.

Of what they're supposed to be.

Yeah. And even I just. Yeah, I'm just. I'm really happy that they can be raised this way.

And even, like, just things that would have probably never come up before. If they did, they would have been answered in different ways. Like my one son. I think we were watching a show or something.

I think it was Schitt's Creek. Have you heard of that show?

Oh, my gosh, yes. Like, David Rose is my spirit character.

So I think that's what we were watching, and my youngest was like, can two. Can two boys get married? And I'm like, yeah, they love each other. And, like, that answer would have been very different if we still were part of it.

And it makes me kind of emotional actually thinking about it, because I've been listening to David Archuleta's audiobook. Book. His book. And, like, he's. It just hits me more because he's reading it, right? Like, it's him telling his story.

Yeah.

And just, like, everything that he faced. And, like, I even think of, like, my boys, like, what if one of them was gay?

Yeah.

And we were still part of it. And, like. Or I think of, like, even, like, my nephews or any of them that. That are still part of it. And, like, if. If one of them is gay.

And, like, the messaging that they're hearing is like, yeah, yeah. It's just so damaging, and it, like, breaks my heart, and it makes me so thankful that, like, my boys aren't part of that. And don't.

Don't hear that messaging anymore.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry.

No, please don't apologize.

And I feel like I'm about to just go, like, full into, like, therapist Mode for about 30 seconds, which is that I really hope that, like, there is a part of you that can go. Those boys are not in that system anymore because of you and because of you and your husband. Like.

Like, they didn't just magically get to exit that system. They had parents who chose to go, like, no, like, we're going to do things differently. This is not okay. And so that's why they get to.

They didn't just. That just didn't happen by accident.

Yeah. Sorry.

I will move out of therapist mode for a second. Okay. I'd like to finish these episodes with just some encouragement for people who are listening. And so.

So what would you say to someone who is potentially in that space of, like, there's all of those internal questions happening and they're considering or they have just left the system that they have.

Come from to the people that are still in it and are questioning? I would say follow those. Like, those feelings that you're having are there for a reason, and as long as you, like, fight against them, it's.

It's not gonna feel good. Good. So. And. And it does. It is hard leaving, but it gets better, and it feels better when you are able to, like, live authentically and yeah, it.

It gets better. I. I think that's like my biggest thing for. And then people that have just left too. I know it's difficult, especially if you're.

It's a situation where, like, your family's still in it and you're feeling a lot of pressure. And even I know people get comments from family or like, like, very honestly, awful things are said to them when they leave. It does get better.

Like, my husband, he just, like, speaking from not really personal experience because my.

My parents left like two months after we did, and they were supportive when we did leave, but, like, my husband left and having parents and family very much in it, and he had had a difficult conversation with them and it was hard for him for a while, but a big weight was lifted when he was able to, like, be this is who I am. And just like a weight was lifted off of him. And I could see it myself too, after how it was. It was really good for him.

Yeah. Yeah, it gets better.

It gets better. That's. Yeah. And yeah, the more like. And reach out to people, connect. There is. There's community out there for people that there wasn't before.

I. I've often said I don't know how people did it before that left, like, even, like 20 years ago.

Yeah.

10 Years ago even.

Yeah.

Because there wasn't like, the resources and the. All of that that there is now.

Yeah, absolutely. And. And that's what I love about the.

The amount of resources and the amount of people speaking about their own stories, because that's how we connect with other people, is through story.

So thank you for joining me and.

Thank you for sharing so openly and vulnerably about your story and for, like, being a newbie to sharing. But to come on and to just be, like, completely open, I'm so grateful and I know that people.

There'll be people out there who will be able to relate to some or many, many parts of your story.

Honestly, I feel like only good things have come from me, like opening up and sharing and being a little bit vulnerable. Yeah, it's hard. And it's like. Like I said, I was a little bit nervous before this, but it. It feels good always after. And it's.

It was lovely to meet you and connect with you too.

Amazing.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes. As always. You are good. You have always been good. And your story matters always.