What makes a story actually stick? And why do so many professionals get it wrong?

In this episode, host Matt Pierce sits down with Gabrielle Dolan, global business storytelling expert and author of eight books, to unpack why storytelling is one of the most underused skills in any professional's toolkit and what to do about it.

Gabrielle shares why personal stories outperform facts and data every time, how to overcome the fear of being "too vulnerable" at work, and the simple rules that separate a forgettable story from one people retell for years.

She also offers practical tips on how to start and end a story well, why authenticity is non-negotiable, and how even a short, imperfect attempt is always better than no story at all.

Learning points from the episode include:

1. 00:00 – 01:58 Intro
2. 01:58 – 04:13 Gabrielle’s origin story
3. 04:13 – 06:55 What is the essence of a good story?
4. 06:55 – 08:43 An example of storytelling in action
5. 08:43 – 11:10 Using stories to help people understand, remember and retell
6. 11:10 – 14:35 How to use visuals in storytelling
7. 14:35 – 18:27 Why vulnerability is scary, but worth it
8. 18:27 – 20:16 The power of sharing stories around values in business
9. 20:16 – 23:11 Why you should share stories about mistakes
10. 23:11 – 26:41 Tips for telling stories well
11. 26:41 – 30:40 Speed round questions
12. 30:40 – 32:48 Matt’s final take and outro

Important links and mentions:

1. Connect with Gabrielle Dolan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabrielledolan/
2. Follow Gabrielle on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gabrielledolan.1/
3. Subscribe to Gabrielle on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@KeepingItRealwithJacandRal
4. Check out Gabrielle’s website: https://gabrielledolan.com/

My final take is storytelling is one of the most

powerful communication skills you can have,

and an okay story is better than no

story. So don't aim for perfection with your stories. It's

all about connection. So give it a go, learn the skill, and share a

story. Good morning, good evening,

good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from. My name is Matt Pearce,

host of Visual Lounge, and today we're going to be talking about one of those

elements that is important to any training program, especially if you're making

video, even if you're making screenshots, using these images

are gonna be helpful to tell a story. Stories are super important, right?

Stories go back, I don't know, probably someone knows better than I know how

far back they go, but really probably to the beginning of us as a culture

and species talking about what we can do and how we can do it and

work together and all those great things. And we got a great guest to help

us walk us through this today. So let me go ahead and introduce her.

Gabrielle Dolan knows the power of a great story. While in a senior leadership role

at the National Australia Bank, she had an epiphany about storytelling in business

and never looked back. Today, she's a global expert on strategic

storytelling and real communication, working with companies like Uber, EY,

Salesforce, Amazon, and the Obama Foundation. She's a bestselling

author of 8 books, host of the Keeping It Real with Jack and Rael podcast,

and her latest book, Story Intelligence, hit number 1 on

Australia's business books list and Amazon's global hot new

releases. For Gabrielle, helping people communicate authentically isn't

just a career, it's a calling, and we are so pleased to have

her with us here today. So Gabrielle, welcome to the Visual Lounge.

Thanks, Matt. I'm very excited to be here talking all things

storytelling with you. Yeah, so I'm just

pleased. Like, you've got so many great credentials. You've obviously done a lot with being

able to talk about story and using story, which telling a story and talking about

how to use story are very different things, I think.

Absolutely. Tell us a little bit more about your background. What was the epiphany for

you about story and that power that comes from using

it. Yeah, look, you mentioned in the bio that I work for

National Australia Bank, so, you know, one of Australia's largest, um, companies. And

it was— this was, you know, going back 20-plus years

ago. It was in my roles, you know, I, I started my

career in technology and then moved into L&D roles, so looking

after the training, um, and then moved into change

management role. So like digital transformation, although

way back then we didn't call it digital transformation, we just called it technical

change. And it was in

those final years

that I noticed that when I shared a story about like

why we were delivering the train, why we were doing the change and why we

needed to do it, and if I shared a story, it seemed to get the

message across better. Like it wasn't a silver bullet, but it was

like people seem to understand. They go, oh

yeah, I never thought about it that way, or yeah, I guess that sort of

makes sense. And I also then started to notice the really good

leaders that I wanted to work for were sharing stories. The brilliant

presenters— you know, sometimes you see a presenter and you go, that was so good,

and then you think about why were they good. It was like they were sharing

stories. So it was, it was 20-plus years

ago, I, I sought I think storytelling's a

skill. I think it's absolutely a leadership skill. I think it's a

communication skill. I think it's an influencing skill. You know, you

also look at the very best teachers and trainers that they shared stories.

And because of my L&D background where I had, you know, was

heavily involved in designing and delivering leadership programs,

I sort of thought, I think this is a skill, and you know what, I

might give it a crack of teaching people. So, and you know, at

the time our children were 2 and 5, and I just sort of thought, you

know, if If it doesn't work out, I'll spend a bit of time home with

the kids. And if it doesn't work out, I'll just go back and get another

job. And here we are 21 years later and 8 books

later, as you talked about, and it'd be fair to say it's worked

out. And so, here we are. Yeah. Well,

that's great. And it makes sense that, like, as you look at those pieces, right,

that story is prevalent. Like I mentioned, I don't know when

stories first came about, but we've had them forever. I am curious

from your perspective and what you've learned over, over these years of studying about

story, looking at stories. I'm sure you've heard a lot of great stories, probably heard

some terrible ones too, but like what, what is the

essence of a good story? What, what should

we be looking for? Whether we're making a video, we're doing a training, maybe it's

a presentation. Are there key components that we should be concerned about

and thinking about? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, a couple of things on, you

know, I, I, I, I, I come from Australia, and Australia

is, um, we are the proud, uh, owners, I guess,

of the, the longest culture in the world. So, you know, our First Nations

people are over 65,000 years old. So it's— and when

you look at the, the First Nations Dreamtime stories,

like, you literally look at the messages that have been

passed down for thousands and thousands of years.

It's through the stories that the message has been passed down. So, like, you— it's

almost like you've got to look no further than that, than the power of stories.

But yes, I have seen, heard some brilliant stories, and you're right,

Matt, I have seen some really bad stories or heard some really bad

stories. I often, you know,

predominantly I go into organizations and run workshops, and

sometimes, you know, they go, oh, the CEO or the

head of the department wants to introduce you. And

because they're about to do— I'm about to do a storytelling workshop,

they think they need to tell a story. And and they get up

there and they do everything wrong to the point

where I'm going, oh my God, I'm just going to come up after them and

like say, don't start your story that way and do this. And, and so

now when I ever, you know, a client says, oh, you know, the CEO wants

to introduce you, and I said, can you please ask them not to share a

story? Or if they want to share a story, can we have a one-on-one

session with them beforehand? Because like I know

I'm going to end up embarrassing them because they're going to do all the things

right. So, yeah, so maybe I— what about

if I share an example of a really great story and then we'll

pick apart why it's good?

Because I think you said in your intro there's a

difference between talking about how good stories are and telling a

story. And again, I will often hear

experts talk about the power of storytelling for an hour and not

share one story. It was just like, what are you doing? So let

me share an example. So to set it up, I was

running a training workshop with the risk team. So it was the entire risk team

and the head of risk. So the chief risk officer, her name was Rosemary,

and she said, one of the biggest issues we have is when we talk about

risk management to the business units we support, they sort

of look at us and go, you're the risk manager, that's your job. And

she said, it doesn't matter how many times I've told them, I cannot manage your

risk for you. All I can do is help you manage your risk. She went,

the message just doesn't get through, the behavior doesn't change. She goes, I've tried everything.

I've tried case studies, examples of the benefits

of managing your own risks and consequences, but nothing changes the

behavior. And out of frustration. She said, I've tried

everything. And she tried everything except a personal

story. And I'll talk about the different types of stories later, but let me share

this example with you. She said, when I was a kid, I

grew up on a farm. And growing up on a farm, there was all these

dangers we needed to be aware of, but Mum would teach us what to do.

So we knew what to do if we came across a snake in summer. We

knew all about the potential traps in the dam after heavy rain.

And we knew what to do, you know, if we came across a, you know,

redback spider, you know, in the timber. And I remember this

day I was running down to get my bike, and then I just

froze because in front of my bike was this massive

copperhead snake. But I remembered everything Mum taught us to do,

so I played statues, and then I slowly walked backwards until there was enough

space between me and the snake, and I ran back to the house to tell

Mum. And I'm sharing this with you because it reminds me of the role we

play in risk. All I can do is give you the skills, knowledge, and

advice so when you come across your own copperhead snake, regardless of

what that looks like, you will know what to do.

Now, Matt, let me ask you a few questions. Does that story

help you understand the role of a risk manager better and the role you play

in risk? Does it help you understand the message better? I mean, it definitely puts

me in a position of saying like, okay, I know there's risk around it, but

maybe I need to better understand the risk. But specifically what risk I might

be facing in that role? No, because I'm not in that role. But I'm guessing

those people could envision. What they're— yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that—

so her main message was, you need to be— you need to

understand the risks. I can, I can help you

when you get there, but you need to be on the lookout for them, right?

So that was her main message. Um, do you think you'll

remember that story? I will, because I

was also thinking during the whole time, because I do not live in Australia—

yep, that tracks. Snakes and spiders, they're gonna kill you.

But yes, yeah, no, it's easy to remember and it's memorable because you can envision—

I can picture this little girl on a farm someplace out in the

wilderness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you will remember it. And

again, we can talk a little bit about why we remember stories and even

the fact you visualize it. So, you know, you talk— we'll get into

that later about the aspect of how story creates a

visual for people. But the final question is,

if you had to— if I just sort of said, can you retell that story

now without losing its meaning? You, you wouldn't do it word for

word, but you'd be able to retell that story. And

so a lot of the times when we're communicating, the biggest

challenges we have is, do people really understand what we're talking

about? Like, do they really understand the message? Can they

remember it? So when the meeting's over, the presentation finished,

the discussion's ended, the training workshop's done, can they actually remember

that message? And if they had to, could they retell it?

To someone else. And a story, a personal story, gives you

traction on those three things— understand, remember, retell—

when, you know, facts and figures and data, all important

but not sticky. So, um, that's— stories

make your message sticky. And, you know, if you— and I know from my days,

you know, running training, it's like the one thing I,

I can, I can think of at training sessions I was in 30

years ago and the one thing I remember is a story that was

shared. In fact, it's like the only thing I remember is the story.

Yeah, I mean, that's— that's— I love this analogy and this kind of this

connection point here because I do see that with stories and feel

that in a variety of different settings, right? It's great for trainers, it's great for

leaders, it's great for everybody. Um, one of the things, as you're talking about

this one, being the visual lounge, I got to think about the visuals here.

And I think there's a lot that you can do. Like, you told a great

story that is memorable, that would have meaning without any visuals.

And I think that's great. What role for you have

visuals taken on throughout the storytelling? And

usually I totally get like, you don't need the story. Like in that story,

you didn't need— I didn't need the visuals. I was making them in my head.

But do visuals play a role for you in the work that you do?

Yeah. So, so a couple of things on that. A really good

story will help people create a visual in their head

and You know, if I asked you what you saw, and I could share that

story with 100 people and every person would

describe something different, so they've created the visual in their own

head, which can be really powerful. I think if you're gonna match

video— and I often, you know, I do presentation training as well as

storytelling training— and it was like, if you're going to have like an image,

I would say, I, to me, it's like make it,

uh, image that's related to your story. And if you're sharing a personal story, so

say for example, Matt, you're sharing a story when you were like, you know, 10

and you won a trophy about something. It could

be like, I would say the image should be of little

10-year-old Matt holding the trophy up. And

so that's, that's the image. Or I, in fact, that just

reminded me of a time when I coached someone

and they were sharing a story when they, they played, um, cricket.

And they was— and they were like about 18 when they started

because, you know, and they said, oh, you know, I just played to, you know,

really be friends, have, have friends and, you know, go out for a

drink and stuff. And I forget the story, but he—

they talked about the first year they had a trophy for the

worst fielder and And he won the worst

fielder. And then, yeah, because clearly it was a fun thing. And then

the next year he won best fielder because he thought, I need to improve on

this. And as he was saying, I said, have you got a photo? He went,

no, he goes, but I've still got the trophy. And I go, the trophy of

the worst fielder or the trophy of the best fielder? He goes, no, I've got

the trophy of being the worst fielder. That's the one he kept. And it was

just this little tiny trophy. And he was on

stage talking to, you know, 100 or so people. And then he

pulled the trophy out right at the end. So

it's, you know, so the visual to me, that, that's the visual of the

trophy, like the prop. Um, but I would say if you're going

to use a photo or any type of

visual and you're sharing a personal story, my advice

is have a personal photo to attach it, not, not

a like stock image. I, I would do it, you know, and even

if you're putting, you know, sharing something on LinkedIn, for example, I would

go the story itself or the story

and a personal photo. But don't do a personal, personal story—

don't share a personal story with a stock image, um, is, is the

advice I give. And so, you know, I'd be interested in your

thoughts on that as well. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm right with you,

although I can definitely— I can imagine there's some people who feel that's

vulnerable, that's really vulnerable. And I— but I do think good stories lead to

vulnerability. And it allows you to put it out there.

For you, let's talk a little bit about that, right? Because it does seem like,

I think there's a, you've been around coaching people.

You're obviously a great storyteller. You've worked at your craft. Like you said,

it's a skill. And I love that because I think sometimes people think talents

are things you can't learn. And this is obviously something you can learn.

So, you know, and I work with, we talk to a lot of people who

are in business and trying to convey a brand story or a bigger message,

then it's not maybe not always personal, but what advice do you

typically find that you give people about being

vulnerable when maybe it's awkward? And then, you

know, after that, I'd love to hear even advice about just like, how do I

get good at this? I'm thinking I'm gonna be really selfish now and everybody else

gets to listen to you. We've connected, so I'm gonna take advantage

of the opportunity to get some coaching. Let's do live

coaching. Let's talk about vulnerability first because I do think that's hard and

in brands particularly when a brand's trying to tell a story whether it's

your training, you know, you're inside an organization doing training or maybe it's a

customer, you're teaching a customer, how do you make sure that that's

hitting the right notes and not awkward or maybe over

the top or, you know, not hitting? Yeah,

Matt, you're totally right. One of the biggest barriers to

people sharing stories is vulnerability.

And it's not that the story is a vulnerable story. It's not like the

story is, you know, about these deepest, darkest, you know,

scary, bigger heart moments. It just— it's just the concept

of sharing a personal story. So like, and even if you take that example

of, you know, sharing a story when you're 10 or, you know, 18 and

won a trophy for the worst fielder, Even that

concept of sharing a personal story in business, there

is so many people that go, that think, ah,

it's not professional, or people will judge me, or what

if no one's interested? So, and that's a, that's a, that's a, they're

very real fears that then, then, then people

go, oh, it's not appropriate to share a story, which, which is, you

know, it's actually, that's a very convenient story they're telling themselves because they

don't have the courage to do it. So one of, you know, often people say,

what do you love about my job? What I love about my job is, you

know, I get people that have been in business forever, whether

it's leaders or trainers or salespeople, and I teach them the,

the power of storytelling, but how to do it. And often they come out of,

you know, in during the workshop, they will go, it never ever

occurred to me to share a personal story in

a business setting. So it's almost like I give them permission to go, no,

it's not only the— it's not only professional, but it's going to be the most

powerful way you can communicate your message, so you need to do it.

And then, and then I give them— teach them the framework of how

to do it, which gives them the capability, the skill to do it, which

I then hope leads to the confidence that they now feel

more confident to do it and to give it a go and, and

I know once people have given it a go, the feedback they

get, like I've had so many emails over the 20 years going,

oh my God, I shared this story with my team and I couldn't believe how,

you know, the amount of people that came up and thanked me for it. And

it's like, and they're going, this storytelling really works. And I go, I know it

really works. So, but I also know, and I also

acknowledge the fact that it takes a little bit

of, um, vulnerability. And, and the cool thing is when you share

stories, especially sharing stories of when it didn't

work out, that— and that, that is showing vulnerability. And

what I mean by that, for example, um, you know,

I have been involved in values rollouts. You know, a lot of training

goes around that— what are the values? And, um,

predominantly I work with leaders to communicate the company

values through personal stories. And, um,

you know, let's just say, for example, you know, Matt, one of your company

values is integrity. And, you know, I would work with

leaders to go, well, what does that really mean to you? And get them to—

and you'd be surprised how many people go, ah,

and they'll say something. And I go, what else does it mean to you personally?

And they'll go, oh, I don't know, I haven't really thought about it this much

before, right? So, but let's just say, for example, you know,

I said, what does integrity mean to you? And you said a few things, and

it was like, you know, um, it means if you say you're going to do

something, do it, right? That, that's what it really means to me. I would

say, well, let's— can you think of a time in your life

where you have said you're going to do something and you didn't

do it? And that people go— and you would— if, like,

we've all, we've all done that, right? And so sharing a story

about when I didn't live up to the value. And

the regret I have— and you're going to remember stories because it's

normally regret— they can be your most powerful stories you can

share. Um, and, you know, and

I look at some of the very best— in, like, for example, the very best

induction programs or onboarding programs— it is, it

is of senior people in the organization sharing

stories around the values of both when they

haven't lived them, but then also of employees when they have lived them.

So I just sort of think you can't really bring

values to life without stories. Well, I love

in that there's that counter, almost a counterexample, right?

I failed. I didn't do the thing I was supposed to, the regret.

Because I do feel like, particularly in corporate, right? Like it's success,

success, success. Learned, but, and, you know, in tech

particularly, I know that there's like this fail fast mantra, but even

then it's like, well, I failed, but then, you know, I was a success. And

I do think sometimes— so that's really interesting to hear you say

that and express that because I do think there's really a lot of value in

saying like, this didn't go the way I thought it should have, or

I wanted it to, or man, sometimes I just really screwed up.

And because I do think there's a I don't know in Australia if it's as

prevalent, but sometimes there's this fear culture in the US of like,

you know, you fail, you're out, you're gonna lose your job and you're not gonna

be successful. And even when I talk to younger employees and things like that,

they're always really nervous. Like, I screwed up, what's gonna happen? It's like,

you screwed up. I've been in 20 years, I've screwed up like

every week. I do something, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. So the

difference, there's a really good points, Matt. And I would say

the difference— if you're a leader and you want to create a culture

of it's okay to, you know, screw up, and you know, because we've all

done it, as opposed to just saying that, like, as opposed to saying to your

young employees, it's okay to screw up, we've all screwed up, and you know,

instead of just saying that, share a story of when you did

screw up. Like, share a story of when you were young and this is

what you did. And because that means— that's going to mean a hell of a

lot more than just saying it's okay to fail.

You know, you know, we have a fail culture, and as long as you learn

from it— yeah, all good words, they're words, but the story will mean

something. It was actually, you know, in your intro, I— you talked about

the podcast, and I do have a podcast called Keeping It Real with Jack and

Raelle. I'm Raelle, by the way. My younger sister couldn't pronounce my name,

Gabriel. I just said Raelle. But my, my daughter,

who's 25, and she's just started out in her career,

she actually said, Mom, can you do an

episode of when you've screwed up? And because

she said, because when you— when I make mistakes at work, I, I

just think it's so bad and it's going to be the end of everything.

She goes, it would be really good when you've made mistakes to listen

to an episode of all the, like, the mistakes you've made, but of

other people, the, the mistakes they made, what the mistake was

and sort of where they are now. And she just said it would just be

so, like, nice to hear that everyone—

the stories of other people screwing up. Um, but

it's, it's, it's hearing the stories that helps you really

understand. Yeah, we've all, we've all been there, we've all done that. Um,

that, that people go, oh yeah, yeah, now I get it, I get it.

So they get it through the stories. Well, I would listen to that episode

because I think that sounds just a fantastic one.

I do want to make sure we're getting time to get to our speed round

questions and things like that. So, again, you've got such a depth

of experience and I would love to maybe— we'll have to have another episode where

we have you back on sometime where we talk, but I'm curious,

top 3 things. What are 3 tips you would give us to

just use story better wherever we might be?

Maybe that's too much, maybe there's only 2, but 2 or 3.

I'll give you some tips. So first of all, if you're sharing a personal

story or any story, it's got to be true. It

has to be true. And so, you know, a lot of people sort of go,

ah, you know, if it— as long as it gets the message across and it's

made up, surely that's okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. You

know, if Rosemary shared her copperhead snake story and then, you know,

you said, oh, I really loved your story, I grew up on a farm too,

where did you grow and she said, oh, I just made that up. Like,

her credibility's gone, right? Like, it's gone. It's, it's, it's, it's,

it's more than a little white lie. It's more than a lie. It's actually

feels like a betrayal of trust. It feels like manipulation. So

my key thing is absolutely true, and I truly believe,

um, and it's the whole reason I wrote my latest book, in a world of

AI-generated content, our stories,

our authentic stories, are needed now more than ever. So they've got

to be true. Let me, let me do some other tips of

how to— so stop and start, how to start your story and

how to end it. I think the most powerful way to start

a story is with time and place. So, you know, when I was a kid,

I grew up on a farm, or, you know, last year we went on

a holiday to Africa. So straight away, time and

place indicates you're about to tell a story. One of the worst ways to start

a story is let me tell you a story. You know when people go,

let me tell you a story, it's like, please don't. It's like— and

also worse than let me tell you a story is when people go, let me

tell you a true story, because that

implies this one's true, all the other ones aren't

true. So it puts doubt in people's head. So starting is really

important. And then at the other end, you

don't want to end your story with the moral of the story. Is,

because there's a— the real skill is in how you end it.

You want people to get the message, but you don't want to be like hitting

them over the head with it. And, and so a

final bonus fourth tip is make sure your stories are

succinct. So my advice is around

60 seconds. 30 seconds, great. 90

seconds, okay. But if you were going 2 minutes people are

thinking, get to the point. And the moment anyone starts thinking, get

to the point, you're losing them. You've, you've, you know, you've been

disengaged. So there's 4 tips for

you all. I love it, I love it. And I, I love the succinct one

because that was one of the things I've been— I think about going into this

is that people often way too much, right? Wait,

just way too much detail, way too much information. Yep, yep, yep.

We're unnecessary detail. Is, and I'm just kidding, you don't need that. You don't need

that. So I think here's a fourth, a fifth bonus one. Be

very clear on your message and the one single message per story. If you're trying

to get too many messages across, then yeah, your story is going to go on

forever. It's one single message per story.

Awesome. Well, Gabrielle, I want

to move into our speed round questions. And normally you can

see I'm, for people that normally watch the show, I'm not in my office. I

don't have my dice. So, I'm going to ask you to pick a number between

1 and 12, and I'm going to give you these random questions that you don't

know what you're about to be asked. I know. Part of me is a bit

scared. Can I random like you? I'll just pretend I'm rolling the dice. That's right.

Bang! Okay. 4. 4. Okay.

What's your guilty pleasure song or movie

that you, well, secretly, but not so secretly because we're asking you about it,

love? Oh God, that's a really good one.

Um, my secret guilty, um, song—

I don't know the name of it, but you know that song, I Get Knocked

Down, but I get up again, are you ever gonna keep me down? I love

that song. There you go. I— that's a— it is a great song and

well worth having as your kind of a guilty pleasure to listen.

And, and, and anything from Kylie Minogue. I love Kylie Minogue. I know, I

know Kylie Minogue's not great She's massive in the States, she's massive

in the UK and Australia. Anything from

Kylie, no. Perfect. Well, let's have you roll that imaginary dice again. Okay,

here we go. 1, 2, 3. Here we go. 9.

Number 9. Okay, you asked for it.

What's one thing you're most proud of in your career?

You know what? I've spoken about my books. I, I

failed my final year of English at school,

and by 1%, 1%.

Um, and the fact that I have written and

published 8 books— is the only person that's

more surprised than me for doing that is my English teacher.

So yeah, I'm proud of that. As you should be. Well,

well done. And yes, it's because writing a book not only

just from a writing standpoint, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of

work. It's a lot of work. And, you know, I have a good editor that,

you know, I'll write and she'll just go, no, I've deleted that. I don't even

know, that doesn't even make sense. Or she'd come back, go, what were you

trying to say here? And you look at it and you go, I'm not sure

what I was trying to say there. Or, you know, like a

thousand words gets reduced to a sentence. I'm like, okay.

Okay. Yep. Well, let's have you do one more and then we'll wrap

up. One more. Okay. Let's go 7.

Number 7. Okay. Well, this will be a tough one. If you

had to shift careers and out of the world of teaching people

about stories and using stories and being an author, you

could do anything, what would you do? Stand-up

comic.

I've done it a couple of times, stand-up comedy, and

I love it. But yeah, if you— it's one of those things, if

you never failed, that's what I would do. Okay.

Yeah. Well, didn't say you wouldn't fail. You'd just be trying. All right.

Okay. Shit. Okay. If there's a chance of failure, then I'm not gonna do it.

You just like the punishment, being up there trying

to get people to laugh? Well, you know what I do? I do

keynote speaking, and, you know, I— my aim is to make it

entertaining. And so a lot of people, you know, come up afterwards and go, oh

my God, you should be a stand-up comic. And it was like, no, if you've

got— if you're a stand-up comic, you've— people expect you to be

funny, right? But when you're a keynote speaker at a

conference, they're not expecting funny. So you only have to be

slightly funny and people think you're hilarious. So I

do sort of like this gig better, but you know.

It'S nice. Yeah. It's nothing worse than a bad stand-up comic, right? Like, so

a funny keynote all day long. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah,

absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Gabrielle, this has been

fantastic to be able to chat with you and learn more about story. For people

who are interested in maybe learning from you, following you, where do you—

where would you invite them to connect with you and what What would you like

to share with us? Yeah, yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn, so absolutely get

on LinkedIn. Um, and my website, my website's just gabrieldolan.com.

But, you know, it's, um, my latest book, Story Intelligence:

The Craft of Authentic Storytelling Made Smarter with AI.

Um, you know, that, that's just been released, and that's— I sort of feel like

that's 20 years of my life in that book. So if you're just thinking, you

know, yep, I understand the power of storytelling, want to get better at it, It's

probably the best $25 investment you'll make is to get the book.

Fantastic. And we'll make sure all those things are linked down in the doobly-doo

down below. So, Gabrielle, we like to end our show the

same way. We ask our guests, what is your final take?

My final take is storytelling is one of the most

powerful communication skills you can have.

An okay story is better than no story. So

don't aim for perfection with your stories. It's all about

connection. So give it a go, learn the skill, and share a story.

I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me in the Visual Lounge.

Thanks, Matt. I love what was just said because think

about story and how many places it applies. It is that

connection, as we were just told, right? It connects you to another person because you

can see yourself. You can feel— actually, I think there's an

emotional connection with neuron nerves and all that stuff

that's happening. And story just makes everything a little bit better, clearer,

understandable, and relatable. And so as you're making video, as you're making

training, as you're doing all these things, use the power of story as we just

heard. Use the power of the connect, but also bring in those powerful images, whether

it's video or images, to tell the story. In a way that's going to really

bring that message home. And of course, we hope at the Visual Lounge

that you're taking these opportunities to learn and grow every single day. And we hope

you take a little time to level up today. Thanks, everybody.