“Where are the plus size male models?” It’s a question the Internet seemed to be asking just a few years ago. Now, a six-pack is no longer a prerequisite to grace the pages of the top fashion magazines. It’s proof, says my guest, Raul Samuel, that there's demand for more realistic-looking models. Still, as we discuss in the interview, not everyone in the fashion industry is convinced.

Some of the topics we cover in this conversation:

• Why the fashion industry has been slow to accept plus size male models
• What Raul has learned about body confidence since becoming a model
• The changes he’d like to see in the fashion industry
• Raul's favourite brands and tips for how to look good at any size

If you liked this episode, please leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help others discover the show.

You can also check out my conversation with Charlotte Griffiths, founder of BRIDGE Agency, in Episode 7: https://pod.link/1711282282 

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About Raul Samuel

Raul started modelling in 2016 and has featured twice in both Vogue and Men’s Health. He has also fronted campaigns for brands like Nike, Tommy Hilfiger, ASOS and Boohoo Man. Raul is represented by BRIDGE Agency, which launched the UK’s first men’s division for bigger, broader male models in 2016.

Follow Raul Samuel on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raulsamuel_official 

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RS 0:00

I got clients complaining to me like, why do you cost this much if you're plus size, literally those words. And you can't make it up. It's a massive issue that people don't think that plus size models deserve to get paid anything.

TS 0:20

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. It's hard to believe but we're in Episode 10 already. If you're tuning in for the first time, thanks so much for joining. And if you're a regular listener it's great to have you back. Today, my guest is Raul Samuel, a model and body positivity activist whose first job in the industry was modelling for the launch of the Boohoo Man plus size range. Raul has gone on to front campaigns for brands like Nike, Tommy Hilfiger, and asos. And he's also featured in Vogue and Men's Health magazines. In this episode, Raul talks about his struggles with body confidence as a teenager, and how he got his first break.

RS 1:23

I took a holiday to China and came back and my face was all over the underground. Like all over it. There wasn't a billboard that was on my face at that time.

TS 1:35

We also talk about the rise of the body positivity movement, and whether the fashion industry is really ready to embrace big and tall models.

RS 1:42

I just want to see a shift in their mindset. It now being normal, like you're not shocked or surprised when you see a plus size model on the cover of Vogue.

TS 1:54

I started by asking Raul if he'd always been interested in fashion.

RS 1:57

My name's Raul Samuel, 30 years old. I've been modelling for about seven years and I'm a model of Bridge Agency, I'm in the plus size industry, I'm an advocate for it. And I'm trying to push a positive message in the fashion world. I grew up in Tottenham, which is not the most affluent area. So what tends to happen is that that people try and dress up to try and hide the fact that they're in a negative situation. So I think you're kind of forced into trying to dress well, from an early age, but I've always been interested in high fashion, even though I wasn't able to attain it.

TS 2:41

So what was it like shopping for clothes when you were younger?

RS 2:45

Shopping for clothes, probably it got challenging when I hit about sixteen to eighteen. My body was like changing quite rapidly in different sizes. And then yeah, so it was hard because at that age I was shopping for stuff that are large and most tracksuits came in like medium. Like they didn't really do large let alone extra large back then. So it wasn't I couldn't get everything that I wanted all the time. So yeah, it wasn't easy.

TS 3:18

And how confident would you say you were with the way you looked?

RS 3:22

On the outside, very confident, but internally probably felt like I've got a lot more work to do and I don't look...like, I still had a lot of insecurities that weren't projected outside, like, you would have never known that. But I'll always be comparing myself to, like, the guy that seems that everybody likes and even like the singers and the musicians and actors, everybody liked.

TS 3:52

I think a lot of people assume that, you know, women do that a lot. But maybe they don't realise that that men do that as well.

RS 3:59

Yeah, it's true. It's true, because I will, I will never project, this is kind of like a therapy session. But it's true, I probably wasn't really aware I was doing it. I just thought I had to look like that so I started running and started working out and stuff like that. But even when I got to the stage where I thought I needed to be, I still there was still more things that I weren't happy with. When you look at yourself, and you're looking at these airbrushed images, these photoshopped six packs, you're thinking I do not look like that. So it then stirs up some certain insecurities about like, taking your top off even during like football matches. I wouldn't do it. It's just like you start, it starts creeping up on you and you don't even realise why.

TS 4:51

And do you feel like you were the only one or do you think that other guys around you felt the same way?

RS 4:57

Definitely. Other guys around me did feel that way. But I think it was hidden, they were doing the same thing I'd done because I was speaking to a couple of my old friends. And they mentioned as well as like that era was really hard because like you felt like you had to do that. So we started going to the gym so young to try to look like that. And then even when you realise that, that goal is not attainable, because it's not realistic, you can't maintain that. So you get it for one summer, and then the rest of the year it's like, you can't maintain it. But I think a lot of guys felt like that, but they just hid it. Just hid it, because looking at their actions, and the reason why we was doing things, we will act out in order to cover the fact that we don't look a certain way or we feel insecure about ourselves.

TS 5:04

So how old were you when you started going to the gym?

RS 5:54

Young, probably about 14 to 16, my dad went to the market found this benchpress that he was going to send back to Africa. And we just started going on that and then thinking yeah, right. That's it, I'm gonna be the next Trey Songz. And then yeah, from that I started, but it was inconsistent, but it done more negative for my body than good at that time. Because you're putting on this muscle and stuff like that. And when you don't eat, your metabolism slowed down. So you end up gaining a tonne of weight that you don't know where it's coming from, because you're eating the same foods, but your body is now used to like working out now. So it will just store as fat and your body composition will change because you don't know how to train. Your chest is massive. Now looks like you just got boobs. Which add some more insecurities. It's this the roller coaster?

TS 6:54

Wow, 14 is really young. So you're 30 now, you said you started modelling seven years ago. Tell us about how you got your first gig as a model.

RS 7:02

My first proper proper job, like a full day, was with Boohoo Man. And they were talking about yeah, this is going to be a great campaign. I didn't know what campaign meant. I just thought, like that is a term they use for the website. So I took it. And then as I'm driving back, I had a makeup artist, like, congratulations, like you got a campaign. I'm thinking okay this is good, I'm good, thinking it's going on the website. And then I took a holiday to China and came back and my face was all over the underground. Like all over it. There wasn't a billboard I was on my face at that time. And then I'm getting messages like people taking pictures like what's this, what's this at the time. Nobody knew that I've got signed. And then yeah, so that was my first one. And that was like two weeks. And I'm like, What have I signed up for? Like, what's coming next. And then it took off like Daily Mail contacted us and BBC contacted us. I've done like a whole radio round of like talking about plus size models and that's when I knew how important it was for that to happen.

TS 8:14

And was Bridge the first agency that you signed with or were you with another agency before you found Bridge. Tell us about that story?

RS 8:20

Yeah, so the first people that scouted me was someone called, I forget their names. I don't think they were legit. But that gave me the incentive but it's always been Bridge. The reason why it's always been Bridge, I'm more than likely would always be Bridge because that's what they stand for. A lot of the agencies are signing plus size models, which I think is fantastic. But they're doing it for the paycheck thinking, Oh, these are actually getting work. So let's cash in while we can whereas Bridge is not thinking that, it's like they will lose relationships with certain clients that are mistreating the plus size models because they're in it to create a whole industry, a whole scene. And then they actually care about what's happening to the mentality of the models and the people around it. Like all of the guys, all of the plus sized men that are shopping, all of the dads, all of the young boys, all of the young men that don't feel confident. That's what they're trying to change. And that's what I stand for.

So they believe that the plus size model should earn as much as any straight size model. But at the minute, that's not been the case and they fought for it. And they still are fighting for it. And then I got clients complaining to me like, why do you cost this much if you're plus size, literally those words. You can't make it up, it's a massive issue that people don't think that plus size models deserve to get paid anything and then there's some agencies that would accept like the lowest fee possible in order to just get them working. So it's like, yeah, it's a, it's a tricky one. But Bridge are doing an amazing job at like, leading the scene. And then setting like precedent because there's loads of things that they've done behind the scenes, made a company change the terms and conditions. So everybody, every plus size model gets paid fairly.

So the Boohoo campaign was that after you signed with Bridge?

That was after I signed with Bridge, yeah, two weeks after, not long after.

So that was pretty quick. And I understand you've been involved in lots of other big campaigns since then. Can you talk about some of the highlights?

Yeah, so I think the most, I'm just gonna talk about the impactful highlights. So the biggest, impactful ones have been Vogue. So to be featured on Vogue twice, was like, amazing. Also, to be featured on Men's health magazine was very impactful, because it's Men's health. Also, we've done a piece of GQ, which was like, definitely amazing, because these are industry leaders in our world,

And Men's Health, like what went through your mind when you heard that you are going to be in Men's Health?

I don't know, it was it was excitement. So I had an agent that now left called Dylan, that was at Bridge. So he was super excited. And I was super excited but I was thinking I don't know what to expect but he said, it's not going to be like the feature you think, it might just be like a bit of jewellery here. And it might not show your face. And then when it came out, the shots were amazing. And it was my face as well. And then the next year, they booked it again. And then yeah, it was, it was amazing, because I was thinking this is what I wanted, this is what I imagined when I first modelled like, I want to get on Men's Health as a plus size model and here we are.

And was that a magazine that you'd ever picked up?

Definitely, yeah, it's one of probably one of the only magazines I've bought, when I was trying to work out and you see people on the cover, you're like, I want to look like that. So let me buy that. And then you take it home and then try to work out and stuff like that.

And so describe what that, so the first time describe what that shoot was like because I had a look at the photos and you weren't really wearing much apart from jewellery.

Yeah, that's it, it's true. So the first time around it, that's what I expected. But you kind of, I've worked with so many photographers, but that one was kinda like it was very particular, he was very talented. Like, he had vision for days, like he can see things that you can't and then it was the first time that I had that much clothes on, or lack of, but they made me feel super comfortable. But then I was like, just walking around there like thinking yeah, this is it. Like, this is what I have been leading up to. And now we're here showing the world like this, you can be you're okay, looking like this. And you still can wear designer, look good, like with this much clothes on even though, like, we've got this misconception that you have to have a certain body type in order to be topless, wherever you're at the beach. And that's what I was feeling like, at first I was nervous because of the like, it's Men's Health, I want to get this right. But then I was when I'm there and the camera starts flashing, I get into the zone. I'm thinking this is what I do anyway, so I'll be fine.

Yeah, I mean, I think it must take a lot of confidence, though, to do a shoot like that.

Yeah, definitely.

Compared to say, where you were at the start of your career or even where you were at the age of 16? How was your confidence changed?

Like, you realise everything you thought was important about your body was wrong or everything negative that you thought was absolutely wrong, because you you like quickly realise that people appreciate you for being yourself and not hiding who you are and then from that it gives them confidence because like body confidence is not defined by the type of body you have. It's not just for big people. There's like really slim people that still have body confidence issues and feel like they're too slim. And so you're impacting everybody in a body spectrum let's say, you're affecting every single person. So when that come out, and you get like messages on Instagram, saying look thank you, like I'm trying to become a plus size model. I might not reply to every single one of them. But I do appreciate everyone because it's kind of like, this is what I'm striving for. And it's you can see it, it's working, if it helps, like, one or two people, hopefully helps a lot more than that. But if it helps them to feel good, then it's like your job is worth it, though. Because it's more than just a paycheck. You're literally affecting people's lives.

And are you surprised by how common body dysmorphia, body confidence issues are in men?

Yeah, I am very, very surprised. So when I was at Asos mainly is when I worked with so many models in one place. So there was about 10 to 15 of us at one stage with all different body types, this was probably the majority of the up and coming modelling scene was there at that time, so but they, a lot of them, I would say 90% of them were struggling with their body image. Whenever a model walked by they'd be like, ah, look at his arms. It's like better than mine. Or look at that. It's better than mine. Oh, he's like that because he's a bit taller. They'll constantly compare themselves. Now, if somebody looks at them, they'll be like, You look perfect. It's like, what are you complaining about? But it's this whole thing where you're like, who's the better looking guy, the whole love Island situation, type thing going on? So it just goes to show no matter how you look, it's a deeper thing, you still might feel that way if you're not confident within yourself.

Yeah, that's really surprising. And also, I'm curious about your experience being a plus size model, because it seems that it comes with a level of scrutiny that maybe the straight size models don't have to face, can you talk a bit about your experience?

So because they go on this starvation diet? Sometimes? A lot of them are my friends anyway. So we'll probably laugh over this. But I think a lot of them feel like, Oh, isn't it just like, you're good, you're good looking? But you're just lazy, because you don't want to do the diet and don't want to starve yourself? That's what they say. And they say, do you have to go to an agent? And instead of them telling you to lose weight, they tell you to put on weight? And I'm just like, No, that's that's like not the case at all. The case is, is that you have to be confident within yourself, like the fashion industry before was everybody has to be size zero. That's still an extremely unhealthy thing to promote. Now, we're telling you to be confident. And we've been accused of promoting things unhealthily. Which doesn't make no sense. Because before it was literally unhealthy. But yeah, some are good with it. Some has told me look, like what you're doing is amazing. And others are like, Nah, you guys are not models to me.

Wow. So do you feel like you have to work harder?

Yes.

To be taken seriously.

100% yeah, a lot harder, because you're going to have to prove your worth because nobody, no one's going to take you seriously at first, they're going to think like, what is this? Is the clothes gonna fit? Not everybody is used to seeing it. And not everybody understands it. And the reasons behind it, they think, Oh, is ita new political movement? Is it like a phase? Nobody knows what it is. But we're slowly getting there.

So I'm curious to get your thoughts on what you think has changed. What do you think has made it possible for someone like you who's different from the stereotypical male model to have the career that you've had?

I think it's a few things. I think it's obviously the the social media side of things and the push that the curve and plus size woman had naturally like the pioneers of it like your Ashley Graham's and your Tessas, like they've really pushed out and then be like, okay, plus size women are here and the men were really quiet for a long time, and then you realise that there's like a need. The social media side of things helped as well. More plus size influencers proved that you can look good at any size, any age, and then brands start paying more attention and the customers helped. So the plus size models were selling out. So there's like a financial gain in it.

And actually, I want to talk about the label plus size. Do you think of yourself as plus size?

I know what they mean, when they say it. I think the meaning means like, you're bigger than the straight size models is what they say. And they just can't find a word, or nice way to say it. But I think there's been quite a lot of terminology debates on it. And we've yet to find the right one. I heard brawn, I heard muscular but I do consider myself plus size, because I want to appeal to the plus size men. So in terms of people that are a bit bigger, that's who I'm trying to relate to.

I was also wondering about the environment that you grew up in, because, you know, some of it is, is cultural as well, like say, in your family, the men in your family? Would you say that, you know, compared to them you're plus size? Or did you feel like you're a regular size?

To them, I'm completely regular, it'ss like normal. The food we eat and stuff like that, it's like it will make you like what they call plus size. If you're underweight, they're gonna, like, talk to you about what's going on. So it's kinda like, they would encourage you to get bigger. So the mentality is totally different, like putting on weight in African culture is a compliment, because they see putting on weight as healthy where we see an unhealthy weight as desirable. It's like, I eventually found out that it's your responsibility. So your happiness and your view of your body is, you're responsible for that. And you can take charge and you can change it. You don't have to change your body, you can change your mindset, you can change your fashion, you change where you shop, because when you start looking good, you then realise quickly, like, that's what was missing is like, I didn't find my style, I didn't find the right place to shop. And that was impacting you, because you were in the same clothes, and everyone else looked good. And you felt like you couldn't, because you're too big. And now, now you can.

And related to that point, who are some of your favourite designers and brands that are catering to larger men?

Yeah, so I've done a shoot with a magazine with Hunter magazine just this week. And then we were shooting an outfit, one was Louis Vuitton, which fitted quite well. And then you've got like your Bosses that are trying, like your Hugo Boss that's trying to now branch out to that as well. And then you've got your brands are always trying to cater like your Boohoos for your plus size essentials, your Asos as well, your Jacamos, your Jack and Joneses. You got loads of influencers that are working with these brands. And making them think like we should do a campaign. Even like Lionel Scott. They've been doing it for ages as well, I think they were one of the first actually start thinking about doing plus size.

So we've talked about the progress that has been made. But what are the changes that you'd like to see in the industry?

I think it was, I want to see plus size models get as much work as any of the straight size models, not just settling for the scrapes that they have by the end of the season. I want to see more plus size models on the runway, every show, including like Italy, France, New York. So definitely want to see that. And I just want to see a shift in their mindset as it being now normal. Like you're not shocked or surprised when you see a plus size model on a cover of Vogue. It's like I want to see more get to that supermodel status. And then once you start getting that then yeah, I think we will be where we want to be because I think the impact would show that you can look good at any size. And that's the core message that we're trying to engrave in people's minds. Like it doesn't matter about your size you can still look good. Then once you realise that you kind of change the way you behave towards everything.

And what's the one piece of advice that you would give to men who might be struggling with their confidence, their body confidence?

I think you need to realise that there's people that look like you that still look good, that feel confident. So, I think the easiest way for me was Instagram. Find influencers that look similar to you. And then slowly improve your dressing based on them. Because if you look good, you start feeling good. And start feeling confident when you find clothes that fit you right.

Okay, great. And how can people follow your work?

The best way right now is through Instagram, there will be a YouTube series where I'm going to discuss everything about making people more confident, like clothes that would fit bigger guys, and then how to dress and different type of styles that you can do that will help you feel confident and it's flattering. So that's coming in the near future.

Thanks to Raul Samuel for the candid conversation. You'll find details of how to follow him in the show notes. If you liked this episode, please do share it with someone who would enjoy it. And you can also check out my interview with Charlotte Griffiths, founder of Bridge agency, which represents Raul. That's in episode seven. I'm Tosin Sulaiman. Thank you for joining me on Made For Us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai