Episode Title: Navigating Grief and Self-Discovery with Melissa Crook

Episode Summary:

In this episode of the Pregnancy Loss and Motherhood podcast, Melissa Crook shares her journey of healing and self-discovery after experiencing a miscarriage and navigating the complexities of motherhood. She emphasizes the importance of prioritizing self-care, understanding grief, and breaking free from codependency. Melissa provides practical steps for women to embrace their emotions, set boundaries, and recognize self-abandonment in their daily lives. Through her framework, she encourages women to acknowledge their worth and make choices that align with their true selves.

What You’ll Hear:

• You are worth all the love and care you give yourself.
• Loss and grief are valid experiences, regardless of circumstances.
• It's essential to prioritize your wellness and not abandon yourself.
• Curiosity can replace judgment in understanding emotions.
• Setting boundaries is crucial for self-care and mental health.
• Self-abandonment often occurs in daily choices and responsibilities.
• Women often minimize their grief compared to others' experiences.
• Emotions should be acknowledged without judgment or stigma.
• You can choose how to respond to difficult situations.
• It's important to create a supportive community for healing.

Links + Resources:

• 💌 Join our grief + growth newsletter: Here
• 🎙️ Listen to more episodes: On Spotify or other favorite podcast platform!
• 🧡 Visit the Evelyn James Shop: https://evelynjames.shop

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Connect With Melissa

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Learn all about Melissa

Hey, mama, welcome back to another episode of the Pregnancy Loss and Motherhood podcast. This week, we have the honor of having our guest, Melissa here. Hey, Melissa, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, Val and for having me. It's good to be with you.

if you just want to like introduce yourself

Yeah, my name is Melissa Crook. I'm 56 year old woman living in Fresno, California currently. I've got three grown daughters, a wonderful husband, and like many women, know, have everything that on the script it looks like you're supposed to have to be happy. But also like many women, spent a lot of years taking care of everything and everybody else first and carrying around a lot of

past traumas and baggage that I didn't process. And they came boiling over about six years ago. And so it forced me to really sit down with myself and be like, wait a minute, it's time for me and really some nudging from my husband, like it's time for you to prioritize you. Let's get serious about what's going on here and get to the bottom of these things that you just haven't dealt with, haven't processed, haven't prioritized. And so that began my journey and through that journey,

and that healing process, I was able to create a framework that not only worked for me, but I knew could help other women as well. Whether you're in it, it's so multifaceted because in my own story, I have not had stillborn in my life, but I have had a miscarriage and we had a close friend that we walked through that had a stillborn baby and what it looks like. And I didn't even know until I started processing all of this.

a few years ago, five, six years ago now, that I'd never really grieved the miscarriage and that I carried a lot of shame about it. And that I blamed myself for it because it was a surprise pregnancy and it would have been our fourth one. I was really shocked by it. And I just determined in my own head with my own mind working that I caused this to happen because of my lack of excitement, just these.

within these hard things that happen to us, of how we're gonna respond to them, knowing that there are steps we can take and questions we can ask ourselves to make sure we are prioritizing our wellness, that we are not abandoning ourselves for the sake of everyone else, that we are not stuffing these hard emotions and putting judgment and shame around them.

and giving ourselves the room to breathe and process and surrounding ourselves with people and communities that are welcoming and want to support us in that as well. And so, yeah, I've been able to go on this incredible journey, meet amazing women like you, share your stories, and then be able to share my stories. I'm like, how can we show up for each other and support each other and give each other the space to be ourselves authentically?

to feel the feelings without judgment and to really embrace each other. But that really starts with embracing yourself first with a lot of grace and empathy. So I'm just very passionate about women knowing their value. I mentioned this earlier and I really live by these three principles as you are worth all of it, all the love, all the care, all the rest, all of the energy that you give to yourself. You are valuable because of who you are.

not what you do, not your titles or your roles, but who you are as a human born into this world. And you get to choose, you get to choose alignment over approval. You get to choose truth over expectation. And you get to choose your own wholeness and wellbeing over performance. And those are the things that I really live by and that I want other women to know as well.

Yeah, wow. Thank you so much for sharing all that. First of all, I want to say kudos to your husband for supporting you and being like, no, you need to do this. I know not everybody has a supportive husband. do too. I do have a supportive husband. So I am very thankful for that. Like anything I'm like, I need to do this. He's like, all right, let's do it. Or let's, you know, he's like part of the me. Yes, we'll figure it out. How do we do it? Like, you know, what do we need? ⁓

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes!

I love that. And then of course, I am so sorry for your miscarriage because I just when I know that when I hear that people have three girls, I get this jealousy in me because I would have had three girls. You know, Evelyn would have been my second. No, third. Oh, my God. third little girl. And it was like a dream come true for me. So I could I feel like knowing that you were going to have another baby, rather it was a boy or girl. But it was just like.

Mm-hmm. I know.

You know, it's just one of those things, it's a baby, it's a baby, it's a baby, it's a baby ⁓ that you didn't get to be with. Yeah, and yes, people often, know, miscarriages are a bit more invisible ⁓ in the sense that one, the family doesn't always get to see the baby or hold the baby or do anything with the baby. Memory making, you know, like,

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

some parents don't even realize they're having a miscarriage and maybe flush the toilet, like all these things. And then the emotions come later. You know, well, whereas this, you know, the family side, but also public side, like people don't post pictures typically, you know, of their miscarried baby. And I hate that word. I'm sorry. It's like, it's stupid word. It's baby loss, right? I'm sorry for that. It's...

Yeah. Yeah.

It's devastating. And so yeah, that was, is that one of the things that was sitting there for you? Like, would that would you come back to that?

Yeah. It's, it's one

of the things. Yeah. Yeah. I had two or three things from that. had never processed major things that I'd never faced. And, and, and there was, there was, came up in a very traumatic home. So there was a lot of emotional and, ⁓ mental abuse and, and volatility happening in my home. And so there was sorting the roots of that all out, but there were three specific events.

that I've not processed, that I've not given myself empathy, grace, that I had been very judgmental with myself about, that I had to replace curiosity instead of that judgment, and that I just had to mourn and grieve. And that was one of the three things, and I didn't realize it. And you mentioned that you don't know what's happening, and you flush many times.

as you're passing and that happened to me. And to this day, can still like, had like a dream later of like, ⁓ that's what was happening. That's what that was. I can still see that image. And I had to really, ⁓ go back and be like, you did not wish this on yourself. You did not do this to yourself.

And, but then I also minimized it because, I'm so lucky. I already have three healthy children. I have nothing to be sad about. I have nothing to be ungrateful for. I need to be so mindful of other women's experiences that don't have any children. And so we do that as women, we minimize these experiences and we compare them to other experiences. And loss is loss and grief is grief.

and your body there's such a number happening to your body because it still goes through all these things that your body goes through when you've carried full term. So you still have this flush of emotions and things happening, but I really was like get past it. The bleeding stopped. It's done. I did this, you know, I wish this upon myself and now we're moving on and I never really, you know, it's just been the last couple of years that I've been able to be like,

So, it's time to get to know.

⁓ that child, and I wasn't far enough along to even know whether it would have been a boy or a girl, but I do know like I ever once in a while, think, that child would be 24 years old now. Like I knew that child would be two years younger than my youngest daughter. That child would be 24 years now. I wonder what that would have been like, but I'm able to think about it in a way that's not just kind of contemplative and...

But not, but I don't carry any more shame or, and when I told my husband, when this all came out, three or four years ago, when I first processed this and I brought it up to him, he's like, my gosh, honey, I had no idea. And I'm like, I didn't really either. I was just in such a hurry to get past it. And I didn't feel like there was room for me or that I had a right to feel anything because of this narrative I had told myself. And

I think that's something that we have to remember with grief, whatever the grief is that you're dealing with. We have good friends that probably it's been, gosh, it's been 12, it'll be 13 years ago in the spring where they had a steel burn baby. No warning that that was coming. No idea that that was coming. And I remember them having a very like new process compared to what I'd seen.

10 to 15 years earlier with other people I knew of how you were able to, you know, spend, you know, have some choices about seeing the baby, spending time with the baby, you know, and having those choices and being able to have these interactions. And I remember people, it was kind of new at the time. And I remember a lot of people having a lot of opinions about it. And I was, Brady and I, my husband and I were the first ones to speak up and say, this is none of your damn business. If this is what...

they need to do, then they get to do it. And you don't get to decide whether you think it's appropriate or right or okay or not. They get to decide that. And I think that's so important too, if these, I'm so committed to like, do not put a timeline on someone's grave. Do not put a timeline on your own grave. And this idea that we will get over it, you don't get over it. You move forward.

you learn how to live with it. But I mean, every year for them, every year they go to her, they have her buried at a cemetery close to their home. Their younger two kids that they had after that know about her. They go visit her, they honor her every year. And it's become this really, I don't know, tragically beautiful thing, you know, in the way they honor her. And...

And I think it's and also too, they were just really have allowed themselves, despite all the noise and people of Roland all the years to just, you know, ⁓ actually, that makes a lot of sense. actually, I see now why they did that. I'm like, good for you. Doesn't really matter. You didn't have you shouldn't have. Your only job is to show up in support and however they need that. And so I think we learned I learned a lot from watching them walk that out to you and just learned a lot about the importance.

of giving people space to do what they need to do.

Absolutely. Yeah. Most people, I feel like most people mean well. And but our meaning well isn't always always what people need. And a lot of what families need is just for you to be there. They don't need words, really, they don't need you to you know, you can't fix it. Like, ⁓ you know, I've said it before, like, you cannot bring their baby back. You can't nobody can they're like,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

nothing can fix this. So we don't have to try to fix them. ⁓ And it's funny because I don't, you know, actually, maybe I don't know because I haven't, the only time I've been to a funeral was for like my great grandma and I was like six years old. So I, you know, I just kind of remember it, but it was, it's very like what I remember is just different.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Yeah.

And people, I don't know, people like, it's easier for people to grieve an adult than a baby, I guess is where, you know, because there's a body, there's a person here. ⁓ And I think it may be different. I mean, our daughter, we cremated her. So, you know, and even John, John didn't get to hold her or see her. So.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

I am the only one besides like my doula and my friend that was there and you know, the nurse and the midwife that saw her. And so it's very hard for people to connect with something that's invisible to them. Yeah, I don't know why that came up. But yeah, just just thinking about that. And then something you said before, when you were kind of talking about ⁓

Yeah. Yeah.

when you were talking about embracing, ⁓ what was it? Kind of about your childhood and then, shit, here we go. ⁓ Childhood, a bit tumultuous, volatile, kind of like mine. ⁓ So mine was mostly my mother. I had a very passive dad who just let her be the tyrant. ⁓ And so.

Mmm

Yes, the emotional abuse and all of those other things made me a people pleaser for her so that things were calm, know, as calm as it could be. Like her yelling all day is a good day. You know, or lightly yelling, like that tendency. It's just like destroying little bits of ourselves to, you know, to keep the peace to.

Yeah.

Yeah!

So I was just wondering like how if you started processing this stuff, right? You said like you had a I don't know if it was like an epiphany or just like everything came to a point but like is that kind of what happened to you or like how did you start processing that and Stop people pleasing if you were a people pleaser or how did you you know, whatever it is that happened? I'm curious

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was very codependent and I didn't know the meaning of that word until I knew the meaning of that word. I was very codependent, very much managing the emotions of the room. I started being asked to be in charge of that. They didn't ever verbally stated. It was just understood. Like from the time I was six years old is about really when I remember five, there's a specific event that happened.

when I was six years old in the family, a huge loss, huge tragedy. And it was very much, felt the pressure and expectation as the oldest granddaughter at the widely old age of six to make sure all the adults were okay. And that's the second of the big things that I hadn't processed, events I hadn't processed that I ended up processing two to three years ago. I never ever mourned that loss.

because I was so busy keeping everybody else around me very comfortable. But also that was kind of that first exposure to that. And then from there on, always like making sure my brothers were being quiet and making sure that I was being as little of a problem in the room as I could be. So not to set off my mom or my dad. My mom was a screamer.

My dad would go, go, go, go, go, then have an explosion. Go, go, go, go, and then have an explosion. So always managing that. Okay, what's happening here? What can I do to manage this dynamic to make sure we just keep everything at level? So yes, that was just part of my environment. I thought that was normal. I was started by the time. I know, I know.

Is that crazy? Like, your dad, you start

to you start seeing these body language or his like, he's starting to sweat or these things. You're like, Okay, we got to get dad under control. Hey, Jimmy, go like, my little brother, go go do this quiet. You're like, you know, you know, like, it's so weird how little children do this.

Yeah!

Yeah, yes, yes.

And I started, you my room was kind of a safe haven for me. I would go in there and read and imagine I was elsewhere and just disassociated just anywhere else that I could be in the way that I wanted to be with the people I wanted to be. I mean, I just, and I just thought I was just being a kid with an imagination at the time. I didn't know. It wasn't until I got into college with my first round of therapy.

where my therapist said to me, you come from a very emotionally and mentally abusive background. The word abuse like rang in my ears like, what? I mean, I was so shocked because I was raised with the idea that there was physical abuse and sexual abuse. There was no discussion about any of these other kinds of things. And I kind of rolled out and through that, you know, started discovering

that my dependency on relationships to, and trying to keep everybody happy and needing them to fulfill me because I had been told in many different ways, non-verbally by action and sometimes verbally that how I was wasn't enough. It wasn't right. I was too outspoken. I was too selfish. I was too loud.

I mean, there was just, I was never just okay as I was. So I got really good grades and I really excelled in the classroom. Won a lot of awards, was the best track athlete in my school. All the things I could excel at, I excelled at. Honor roll, all the things. And just because I knew that's where the affirmation.

And so that whole idea of value just because of who I was, I really had to find that on my own over time. Like I dabble in a little bit, find some space with it, and then think, okay, I've got enough. And it was interesting because when I really dove in six years ago, my nervous system finally, I think, felt safe enough to kind of let it all open up. My three girls were grown.

You know, two were at college, one was married and had finished college already. It was just my husband and I. And it was just finally, there was, found therapists that I trusted and everything finally just started coming, boiling out. And I realized all that I had been carrying, all these wild narratives that I had been living with. But yeah, I had to really learn that.

most of my relationships were very codependent and what that meant, very trauma bond informed. And that I had a lot of people pleasing that made me a great employee. didn't make me, it did not make me the greatest, you know, to myself. And also, you know, really as I, as I mothered my three daughters, they learned a lot from seeing what I came from and how I evolved, but also where I was still stuck. And then they,

Yeah.

kind of took it to the next level. But I remember my oldest saying to me one time, she was home from college and she was going over a problem or something she was experiencing that was hard. And I go in and I'm ready to fix it. And she said, mom, I don't need you to fix it. I just need you to listen. You don't need to repair anything. ⁓ I got this. I just needed to be heard. And then just kind of realizing, that was kind of that first inclination of how I

interacted in my relationships and the responsibility I put upon myself on those relationships to make sure everybody was happy, wasn't healthy. And it was really costing me more than anything. And so I really came to, know, with this framework that I, that I found worked for me and that I, that I share and I'm so passionate about now. Is it really, when you get down to it is like, if your life is in any way,

is asking you to abandon yourself continually for the sake of everybody else, then something's got to shift. You were not meant to live that way. You were not meant to carry all these things. And one of the things that has a lot of stigma around it that we're not supposed to, like you can't stay in too long or that's not appropriate or you need to get over it. There are two key things that come up, especially with women. One is anger.

and the other one is grief and everybody wants you to get over it and everybody wants to put this bad stigma around it. I'm like, these are clues and I'm very adamant about when I'm working with women, I'm like, I want you to write down your emotions each day. When I first start out to just help them be aware of where they are. I want you to write them down. I want you to acknowledge them. This might take some time because you're not used to giving yourself this kind of attention. ⁓

And then I want you to, know, so you know where you are today. So you can just start with, I'm not talking about getting to the root of it and solving whether it's coming from a true narrative. I just want you to start with acknowledging that you have a multitude of emotions and I don't want you to approach them as good or bad, negative or positive. I want you to just create this really non-judgmental curiosity based idea around them.

so that you have a chance to give them room to breathe. And as you do that, you can start sifting through, okay, this is based on an old, tired, untrue narrative that I need to retire and unlearn. It is not true that, you know, that is bad, you know, what, and guess what? Anger can be a great emotion to propel you to do the things you need to do.

When it's a problem is when you keep stuffing it and not dealing with it and it manifests itself in other ways in our bodies. Same thing with grief. People wanted to tell you all the time how long it's okay for you to be sad and how long and everybody has their own process with this and stuffing it. It's still going to come up. It does you no good. I found this out the hard way. It all came pouring out six years ago and so it's like women. We don't have to live like this.

but we've gotten these narratives from scripts from the time we're little kids about how we're supposed to show up in the world and what is okay and what is not okay to feel. And then within all these circumstances, we've been told, this is appropriate, this is not. I want you to throw out the word appropriate. I want you to just and start trusting yourself and what you're feeling inside. Give it room to breathe.

Let yourself cry, write it all down, scream, yell, swear, burn it if you need to take a pillow and swing it against the wall. mean, Mike, I literally had so much anger stored up that my therapist was like, you got to release this. And I'm like, well, I do a really vigorous workout every day. She's like, I don't think that's going to be enough. So I want you to, you know, either go to like,

you can go to these rooms where you can swing things around and really, know, rage rooms. Yeah, you can do that. Or, you know, at the time, this was during COVID. So there wasn't a lot of rage rooms up. I'm like, but I got a brick wall outside, although we probably needed them more than ever then. I've got a brick wall outside and I've got some old pillows and she's like, great, swing that pillow. And she's like, and yell and scream. And if there's somebody you need to say something to,

⁓ Rage groups or whatever.

Yeah.

pretend they're there and say it and let and release this and get it out of your body and That was so prescriptive. It was just this whole like ability to finally Let go of all this stuff and the physical manifestation of it of how much lighter I felt when I allowed myself to feel that and when I started realizing the relationships in my life

that were really for me and my wellness and the relationships that preferred that I stay where I was before because that just served and fit into their narrative better. And I had to make some hard decisions and set some boundaries that not everyone that received well. And I had to make some decisions for me and my key decision every time. And I think sometimes we get ourselves in trouble with this. We think if there's pushback when we have communicated a boundary or communicated an expectation.

that if they push back, means we're wrong. I'm like, no, that does not mean you're wrong. Follow your intuition. They just may not be ready to hear it. And you may have to make some decisions about how much space they get in your life as you're working through this. You can't make them accept it, but this decision to continue to abandon yourself is not serving you. And it's not good for anybody else either. mean, anyone we're in relationship with that.

is really going to receive our most authentic, healthiest selves. The way we want to be remembered by people is they're gonna show up and they're gonna be there and they're gonna be excited about being on that journey with you. Not everybody's ready to face, do that work and face those demons and make those changes. Many people are really comfortable being comfortable and comfort and curiosity cannot coexist.

together for very long and I chose to get curious and it's the hardest most important thing I've ever done for myself for my relationships. I found out really who was who was with me and it's not that it hasn't been hard but it's been important and I wouldn't change it at all. But I think I've just learned like so many women are going through these things and they're carrying these heavy burdens because they don't feel like they've

have a right to or deserve to. I'm like, no, you're worthy of all of it. You deserve to have space to be who you are, to feel what you need to feel and be supported and honored within it. And I think that's just such an important part of what I've learned. I want women to know this so much. And I want us to be kind to ourselves. And I want us to think about how we talk to ourselves when these hard things happen or when we're having a hard day.

You you hit that anniversary and it's been 10 years and maybe it just hits you differently than it did the year before and it catches you by surprise. That's okay. Give yourself room to breathe. Don't put a timeline on yourself of, it hasn't felt that way for the last six or seven years. I must be past it. No, no. I mean, maybe you move forward from it, but there might be just different.

phases and seasons in life that bring those things and make them feel fresh again in a way that you weren't expecting and give yourself to room the room and honor yourself in it and so many times are like, oh Can't believe my body's doing this to me or I can't believe this has happened to me and I'm like What look at it instead of an opportunity like okay, what's I'm getting this is letting me know something needs to be moved through today Maybe I need to take it a little easy on myself today

Maybe I need to give myself a little grace today. Is there something that's nudging me now that I didn't have the capacity to consider 10 years ago, but I've got more space for now and really switch that anytime you catch yourself being judgmental, move to curiosity instead.

Yeah, and I think too with that victim mentality, it's okay to be in that sometimes because it is, life is fucking unfair. But it's also a very slippery slope and you can stay in it if you're not careful. I feel like a lot of my life with my background and with how I grew up, I was just always jealous of everybody. Like their relationships with their mom, their life and you know,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, they weren't poor like me and all these things and I just always felt like I was with them. it's like the worst, I feel like it's one of the worst feelings that I've ever felt or had to deal with. When you're talking about people, the people in your life, they want you to stay small because that's how they're used to you being. They don't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

want

to be confronted with the fact that they have not changed or grown and are also refusing and not willing to do that. ⁓ I have a hard time with that. When I go home, I feel very, very outsidery. No, because I'm only I'm one of the few of our friend group that moved out of our, you know, state out of our city and

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

⁓ I just, I realized how big the world is and how I didn't have to be that way anymore. Like, wow, people are actually changing. Like, I don't know about you, but ⁓ like in high school, I mean, even in our TV and stuff or movies, it's like ⁓ when you see high schoolers and it's like, you've changed. Like it's terrible. Do you like?

Mm-hmm.

Do you remember that? I spoke to somebody else. I don't remember that, but no, like you would come back and you've changed. it's the way you look. Maybe it's the way you are. Maybe it's you doing something different and they're just like, she is different or she's changed. Like we can't be friends.

yes.

Yeah.

Yeah,

they treat it like you think you're better than or and I was like, no, I've just learned and grown and evolved. get what I've lived all over the country. I lived in a tiny little logging town where a lot of people stay and and I and a few other friends left and went and did different things. And I tell you what the best thing as I get what you're saying about seeing.

how others live in the world, getting to other spaces and places, seeing that your story is not the only story, that there's a lot of different stories out there. There's a lot of different every and there's a lot of different ways you can show up and evolve and grow and you don't have to stay stuck. I think sometimes when we when we live in that victim space and we view life as happening to us, we don't see our choices within it. We just we just see the reactive, especially if you've grown up around

people that model that you don't know anything else. And then all of sudden you get outside of that. You're like, wait a minute. I can make some choice. Yeah, this did happen, but I can make some choices within that. That, know, so that I don't have to stay stuck here because you're absolutely right. I think it's always when people talk to me about you're talking about feeling emotions and what I'm like, I'm talking about feeling and processing them. I'm talking about not stuffing them, feeling them, acknowledging them, them.

moving them through and moving forward. I'm not saying now sometimes, especially with grief, sometimes you just need to sit in it and feel like shit for a while and that's okay. Give yourself the time to like, you know what? I am not ready to get off the mat yet. I'm gonna, this was really crappy and I'm gonna allow myself to feel that. But at some point there comes a point you get to make a decision for yourself. Okay. All right.

Totally.

it's time to get up off the mat with little steps. Like maybe it just means you brush your hair today. Maybe it just means you brush your teeth. Maybe it just means you step outside on your front porch and take in a breath of fresh air. You don't, I'm not talking about getting up off the mat and heading out to work and all the responsibilities. I mean, baby steps, be kind to yourself. That's the other thing. When I think we're going through something hard,

We want ourselves, we have such high expectations of ourselves. do things when I'm working with, whenever I'm working with women, I'm like, we're going to start with something that feels really doable. We're going to get some wins and build your confidence. And as you do that and take your time and be really kind to yourself, then over time, you can take on bigger things and do more things and step into it more, but, but, generous with yourself as you're pulling yourself off.

off the mat. mean, I think, just really be and think of, you know, I was, I'm like, would you expect your sister, your girlfriend, your daughter, your, you know, your best friend, your coworker, your mother, your son, your partner, would you expect them to have to respond and react and recover in the way that you're asking yourself 99 % of the time that I was like, Oh, absolutely not. Then why are you doing it to yourself? Why are you doing it to yourself?

And I was, you we were having a conversation yesterday on a panel that we were recording and it came to me through the panel of like, we need to remember as women that we don't have to live like we're an inconvenience to everyone. We are not an inconvenience to everyone. So don't live like you're an inconvenience to everyone. Even if if you feel it, sometimes we feel inconvenient to ourselves. We're like, God damn, this is hard.

But yeah, be really kind, really generous, really non- These are all things I have to do. Let me tell you, as much as I, you know, and the beautiful thing about this framework that I utilize is that I can go back to it as much as I need to. Because I know that even with all the work I've done and things are still gonna come up, they're gonna pull me back into some old narratives and habits.

that I'm going to have to snap myself out of and be like, wait a minute, this framework that you share with everybody else now, you've started it for you and it's still for you.

then you're not doing it, Melissa. That's

what it tells you. Yeah, you're like, you're not following this today.

Yeah, exactly. And so it pulls you back into reminds you keeps you humble keeps you back there real quick. But yeah, but you know, my big thing is like when you're going through these hard things, be really gentle, be really curious. I have found because I can be as judgmental as anybody if somebody irritates me or somebody's going down a road that I'm just diametrically opposed to in every way I can get

I'm very opinionated and I can jump to judgment like that. And so what I've learned to do, snap into curiosity. Okay, get curious here. You may not agree with that approach or that response or what they said, but get curious about how maybe they got there. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but it keeps me out of that judgment and making assumptions and not being curious about people's stories. It also helps me to ask people,

How do you need me to show up for you instead of assuming I know?

I don't know, women are just inherently hard on themselves. But you know, it's like, at this point, it's ingrained in us like our DNA, our generational patterns, like it has been passed down, not just, you know, it's not just learned environmentally. Once we're a baby, you know, as we grow up, it's it's really ingrained.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

⁓ It's very...

Yeah, it's in the womb. There's

science now that shows it's in the womb. ⁓

Yes,

and our mothers and their grandmothers and everything like, it's all connected. ⁓ Our DNA strands, like, it's the way we handle stress, the way that we process hormones, like, it's literally, ⁓ it's so hard. And it's really, really hard to be intentional. Because intentionality means that you're, it's a constant, constant process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and you notice when you start ruminating or you start having shitty thoughts again, and then you're like, God, I feel so bad. you're like, Mel and why are you, wait, no, I don't wanna, I don't think that anymore. Like it doesn't go away. The judgment, my God, we're all judgmental. We were raised that way, not even raised. We were made that way because it's,

Mm-hmm.

No.

Yeah.

part of how we survive by creating patterns and like something was bad for us or not. It's like when we're judging people, the initial response is a survival instinct. ⁓ But then after that, it's our responsibility and our choice to not go down that road. Because as women, I mean, it's very easy, very easy to judge other people. It's very easy to, I mean, I'm...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

wouldn't say an aggressive driver. I'm a very good driver. like, that is where my rage comes out. Like that is the judgment that I get from like people driving. like, they gotta be old, they gotta be stupid. Like they must like just be blind. They're just idiots. Like I have all these thoughts that just run through your mind. But that's how it is. Like that's just our brain. So then that intentionality of awareness is like, okay, nope.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

Nope, that's not me anymore. That's that's the old me. That's I don't like feeling that way. I don't like, you know, being mad at somebody because they stayed at the stoplight, you know, stop light too long when they could have turned right on red, like all of these things. I'm like, no, it's not the end of the world. Like at least, you know, maybe they're being extra safe. Maybe they were in a car accident and they're scared. Maybe they're a new driver like

Yeah.

curiosity, bringing that curiosity in these everyday issues that we have, or we think are issues, but they're not. ⁓ Humans are strange. We are so weird in the things that we get hooked up on. Another thing, ⁓ what was it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

it was about. Hmm. Yep. Nope. Gone.

I know that feeling so well.

It's so annoying and it's so funny, but at the same time, I'm like, okay, well, how about when, okay, so you have this framework that you utilize with your clients, with friends, with women, whatever. ⁓ What is, I mean, what is an actionable way of...

Mm-hmm.

I don't know, like what's an everyday or a small action that women can take to be like, okay, today needs to be different. I'm feeling like crap. How do I get out of this? Where do I start?

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I have a one sheet thing and I'm gonna share it with you so you can put it in the show notes for this episode. And I share, it's in our show notes and I share it everywhere I go, whether I'm speaking on the podcast. It's the first thing I give women and it's asking yourself these questions, put it in a journal or a place you can see it. So you've got it to tap into, but identify five activities that are issue. Identify five words on how you want to feel the next six months.

cool. Perfect.

and write down your character traits, who you are, not what you do, not your title, your role, but who you are. I'm energetic, I'm passionate, I'm hopeful, I'm stubborn. Put those things down. What those things are gonna do is they're gonna help you figure out what you value, what's important to you, figure out activities you can do to fill your cup, to fill your resource. When you say, I hear all the time,

People are like, I don't have room in my calendar. Everybody's got room in their car when they're driving the kiddos to school or driving to work or driving to the grocery store. What's one of those things that's on that list? Is it favorite music? Is it a podcast? Is it nothing? Is it just quiet? So you wake up and so then you've got that list to look at. What do I need today? On these list of activities, it doesn't have to be five, it can be 20.

I mean, on these list of activities that nourish me, what one of these do I need today? Which one of these resources am I gonna pull from? On those five words on how I wanna feel the next six months, how am I engaging in a way to make this possible? What are some steps I can take to make this, put this into action? And then it also is a great informer. Those two things are such great informers, along with your character traits.

of looking at your calendar, mean, like, is anything in alignment here? Like, I've got these things are resources that fill me. These character traits are who I am. These are five words on how I want to feel the next six months. Is there anything in my calendar or my relationships or my workspaces that reflect that? If not, it might be time to clean some house and to start setting some healthy boundaries around your time. Start saying no.

more than you say yes in terms of one jike. If that that list of three things sounds like too much, your one thing you're going to do this week, you're not saying yes to anything for at least 24 hours. When someone asks you something to do something, you're given 24 hours, you're going to go home and look at your calendar. You're going to think about whether we actually want to do it or not, because we as women feel like we have to say yes to everything. And you're going to learn how to say no, or at least pause.

That's good.

And if you really want to do it, what's another thing in your calendar that you need to get rid of so that you can make space for that thing that is honoring going back to that list I talked about earlier of who you are as a person, what activities nourish you, what fills your cup, how you want to feel and realize you've got choice in that. But yeah, if nothing else feels doable, you simply no yeses for 24 hours and maybe even

Just say no, like, no, not right now. No period, no over explaining, no.

I love that because like most people, or women I should say, like I go on Pinterest, I'm like, oh, look at this, you know, a checklist of, know, the real you or the authentic you or the version of you that you wanna be and you know, this million checklist thing. We don't ever do it. We download it, we take a picture of it, whatever, but it's not our words and it's not us.

Bye.

Yeah. No!

So writing it down, even if it's a note in your phone, like I use my note thing all the time, but then I'm also guilty of not using it. So if you make the note, know, on your wallpaper, putting it on your computer, putting it somewhere you can put more than one, like, because what I find that happens is that I have really good intentions, really good intentions for myself. And then, you know, maybe my kids distract me or...

Yes.

Yeah.

you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. ⁓

something triggers me and then my emotions get out of whack and then I can't even think about something that would make me feel better. I'm just pissed at this point and I don't want to feel better. It's like, and it happens a lot and it's like going back to, okay, I don't want to do, and then we, then our brains are like, I don't want to do anything that makes us feel bad. I want to do this. It's insane the way that our brains do that. We know what will make us feel better. Look, we've made a list.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah.

but we can't bring ourselves

Yeah.

to do it. It's insanity living in here.

I know.

It is,

it is. that's part of the thing too. One of the things I've started doing and I do it almost every day, not every day, but almost every day where I set aside 10 minutes of just quiet to let all the noise settle and calm down so I can actually get to what I actually need, what I actually want. Just settle all the noise of just 10 minutes of quiet. It's usually somewhere outside if it, you know, if the weather's nice, which I have pretty good weather here most of the year, luckily where I'm at now, but ⁓ yeah, 10 minutes of quiet, but also just

that remembering at the end of the day that if it requires you to abandon yourself then it's got to be on now. If it requires you to abandon yourself it's and that doesn't mean it's going to be easy but yeah I will I'll share that PDF with you so you can put it in the show notes but it's a really great list to keep in front of you because it just gives you because people like I don't know what to do for my self-care what are five activities that nourish you.

I don't know where I need healthy boundaries in my life. Well, what are five activities that nourish you? What are, how do you describe yourself? And what are five words and how you wanna feel? if nothing, they look at your calendar now, what's out of alignment with that? Who's out of alignment with that? Sometimes we have to be really mindful of like, I could do this if I wasn't giving so much energy to that person, that relationship. And we think relationships have to be forever.

And not relationships are for forever. Sometimes they're for a season. And if it's, if it's, it's, if it's not life giving, then you've got to take a look at what's happening there. And if you need to re-examine the time and energy given to that space. So yeah, there's a bit, yeah, I think the biggest favor women can do themselves is just, you know, not automatically saying yes and learning to say no period. And with, because we, I was the over explaining champion of the world.

Yeah.

for most of my life. my daughters, even like my daughters like, mom, we got it. You don't have to keep like, we got it. We hear you. Exactly. Because we feel like we have to justify everything we feel. We feel like we have to convince people instead of just trusting ourselves like, this is how it is for me. This is what I have capacity for. If it doesn't work for you, that is not.

Yep.

Pulling it in, yeah.

Yeah, as a

that is yours to work out. That is not mine to work out. I'm honoring myself here. And of course we, and I think we're so worried about disappointing people, but we'll disappoint ourselves at the first notion. We're the first ones that we take out of our calendars when we're making room for things. And I, when I tell women, I'm like, you put yourself in your calendar first and what you need that day and everything else works around that. That does not get pushed out. Whether it's five minutes,

15 minutes, 50 minutes, two hours, whatever it is, whatever season of life you're in, that's in there every day and everything else works out of that because you're no good to anybody if you haven't first taken the time to be good to yourself. No one gets the best of you.

Yeah. Last question, I know we're getting to the time, but what are some examples, like, like subtle examples of ways that we abandon ourselves that women may not even realize that's what they're doing? Because a lot of times I feel like we do things and but it's like, no, you know, we have to do this. This is, know, they're not they're not getting it that they are abandoning this piece of themselves for this. Do you have any examples of like,

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah. I, I, and especially, think there's probably, you know, the moms out there will definitely get this, but let's say this is something I should have died had to make. was staying up way later than I should have, but one season of my life to make sure everybody's clothes were folded and put away. I was losing, you know, probably a, you know, an hour of sleep on one dinner, the other that I was denying myself for us to make sure they had all their clothes folded and in their room. And it got to a certain point I'm like,

They're old enough to put their own clothes away. And so it became like, okay, new plan. Your clothes are going to be, I will separate them via your clothes, but there's going to be a laundry basket at the top of the stairs to at that point, two daughters were sleeping downstairs. The other one was on the main level of this. There's your basket, take it downstairs, put your clothes away. Not, you know, I will sort them and watch them. That's a little way. And we don't think about it, but I'm like,

my gosh, I'm giving this time. I'm either doing this. Sometimes it was slip. Sometimes it was, nope, skipping my can't go for my run today. Got to get this done. Another way you might be abandoning yourself is if you're constantly rescuing your kids when they forget something at home, your kids, forget their uniform, they forget their lunch. And I rescued them for years until I had, I had a point where I got a new job and it was much farther away from their school. It was like,

40 minutes away from their school rather than like five minutes away. And I was like, all right, guys, if you better remember everything, dad works downtown, mom works out in the Valley, nobody's gonna be home to rescue you. If you forget it, then you forget it. You're gonna figure it out, whatever the consequence was. And I wasn't gonna run myself ragged and move my schedule around, be late for work or leave work early.

so that they weren't uncomfortable. And it helped them learn responsibility. So those are a couple of examples. At work, always being the person who plans the birthday parties and nobody helps you. My friends Janelle Wells and Doreen McCauley call it the invisible work. If you need help on that, ask for help. And if no one's willing to help you, just be like, I can't do this anymore. I'm having to stay later on Fridays.

because, and I took this on early on, it doesn't work for me anymore, or I thought people would help me or whatever, but also communicate when you need help. And there are people out there to help you, but those are examples of how we sacrifice our time, our energy, what we need, whether it's sleep or working out or getting home from work, that we willingly give away all the time, trying to keep everybody else happy and make sure they're taken care of.

Make sure you're taken care

Yep. Perfect. No, those were perfect examples. Things that we are currently going through. There's Callie forgot her gym uniform. And she's like, Can you run it up for me? Because we do we normally do. And the other day, me and my husband been talking, we're like, we got to stop making everything so easy for them. So we had it so hard that we've we've realized that we've been very

Yeah, I'm sure you're in the thick of it right now.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

easy. So now we have to like

Yeah.

pull back and not make life so comfortable to for their benefit to build that resilience because resilience comes from struggle.

Yeah. And the ability

to make decisions and work out problems and believe that they can do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah,

it's wild. Life, life, life, life is wild. Well, I'm so glad you were here today. Thank you so much for this conversation. There's so much more I'm sure we could talk about, so we may have to do it again. ⁓ But thank you for everything.

I know, I know, I know, I know.

Absolutely. I know.

You bet. Thanks for having me, Val and I always love talking to you.

Yeah,

do you have? Are you on Instagram? Do you want to share your handle or anything so people can follow you for your podcast?

Yes. Yeah. At

yeah. At embracing layers on Instagram. ⁓ and that Instagram and LinkedIn are where you find at embracing layers on Instagram, the embracing layers network on, ⁓ LinkedIn. We're also on Facebook and Tik TOK too, but those are the two prominent places. Embracing layers.com is where you find everything that we do. The podcast, how you can work with me one-on-one, my online course, have me as a speaker.

Minton.

All of our resources from all of our guests as well, our book, it's all there. All the places you can follow us. that, just go to embracinglators.com. Thank you, thank you.

You have a beautiful website. Yeah, awesome.

Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here.

You bet, Valen.