The narrative surrounding artificial intelligence, often perceived as a recent phenomenon emerging with the advent of popular chatbots in late 2022, is, in truth, a tale that stretches far beyond this singular event. I am privileged to engage with Jackson Calame, an individual who has devoted 15 years to the meticulous development of intelligent systems long before the concept of AI became a mainstream topic of discourse. His experiences elucidate that for many innovators in this field, the surge in public interest was not a revelation but rather an affirmation of their long-held convictions. As we delve into Jackson's insights, we uncover the profound implications of leadership within the AI landscape, emphasizing the necessity of grounding technology in ethical leadership and thoughtful processes. This discourse aims to equip listeners with a deeper understanding of how to navigate the complexities of AI, urging us to recognize the inherent value of human connection and purpose in fostering technological advancement.

The narrative surrounding artificial intelligence (AI) has garnered immense attention since late 2022, primarily propelled by the advent of a chatbot that became a viral sensation. However, this phenomenon merely scratches the surface of a much more profound story that stretches back years. Within the realms of technology and innovation, there exists a cadre of individuals who have been quietly advancing intelligent systems long before they commanded public interest or investment. Today's discussion illuminates the insights of Jackson Callum, a seasoned entrepreneur who has spent over a decade immersed in this domain. His experiences, shaped by years of dedication and foresight, offer invaluable lessons for understanding the trajectory of AI and its implications for society. As we delve into his journey, it becomes evident that the path to innovation is often paved with perseverance and a steadfast belief in one's vision, even when the broader world has yet to embrace it fully.

Takeaways:

• The narrative surrounding artificial intelligence is often perceived to have commenced in late 2022, but it is crucial to recognize that many innovators have been diligently developing intelligent systems long before this notable moment.
• The journey of building intelligent systems is characterized by perseverance, purpose, and a commitment to remain steadfast in one’s vision, even amidst widespread skepticism and misunderstanding.
• A significant misconception in the realm of AI is the tendency to focus excessively on technological tools and innovations, rather than prioritizing leadership, human processes, and the cultivation of genuine connections.
• In order to leverage AI effectively, it is imperative for leaders to relinquish their egos and empower their teams, fostering an environment where growth and productivity can flourish through collaboration and shared vision.
• Building a successful organization necessitates an understanding of the nuances of delegation, ensuring that responsibilities are assigned thoughtfully and that team members are adequately equipped to excel in their roles.
• The path to success in the AI landscape is not merely about the technology itself; it is fundamentally rooted in the quality of leadership and the ability to engage authentically with one's team and community.

Links referenced in this episode:

• visionproslive.com
• aifirstclassbusiness.io

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Y Combinator
• ChatGPT
• Legacy
• Kajabi
• Fiverr
• Odesk
• Upwork
• Canva
• Boston College
• CorelDRAW
• Yahoo.com
• John Lee Dumas
• Dan Martell
• Vivint
• Dr. Eric Berg
• Michael Hyatt
• TRV Ecker
• Lewis Howes
• Simon Sinek
• Thomas Friedman

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But that's not where the story actually begins.

For some people, this wasn't a breakthrough.

It was a kind of confirmation.

They had been quietly building intelligent systems for years and years before anyone had a name for what they do.

Right.

So today we are talking to one of those people, and what he learned in the silence before the noise is something I would say worth slowing down for.

So, hey, Dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine, where we explore what happens when human thinking meets the technology reshaping our world, and we try to make sense of it, honestly.

I'm your host, Avik, and I'm glad all of you are here today.

And my guest today has spent 15 years building and scaling companies across SaaS, hospitality, tech and media, including early work with Y combinator startups and AI innovation that predates ChatGPT by years.

So he works at the intersection of growth, resilience, and using technology to bridge economic opportunity across the Americas.

So I'll not take much of a time.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the show and please welcome our lovely guest, Jackson Callum.

So welcome to the show, Avik.

I appreciate you.

Thanks for having me.

Amazing, amazing.

So, Jackson, like, before we go to the 15 years and everything that you have built, I want to ask you something a bit personal.

Like when you were working in the intelligence systems before, the world had really caught up to this idea before, it was kind of fundable or maybe understood.

Also, what kept you convinced that you are on the right track?

Like, what did you know about it?

I mean, if you can share.

Ooh, great question.

As far as being on the right track, I think I'm no different than most human beings.

And I didn't have any idea.

I mean, I just built.

And personally, I've always lived a life of building with purpose.

That's also why, as you know, you were so gracious.

Avik, I'm like, jackson, I don't know if you want to do this show today.

This is a makeup, my friends.

An intelligent system is not putting a pole near a stairwell.

I'll just leave it at that.

You know, the.

The reality is when you live with purpose.

I have found that when I live with purpose, I feel at peace in my life.

I feel like there's a certain connection to what I'm doing and what is available in life.

And so I, I, I didn't know anything about AI.

I didn't know AI was a, was going to be a big thing in the future.

Um, and, and so if they're going through certain problems, they would be able to access dad or grandpa or great grandpa's wisdom as best as possible through that.

I didn't know what AI Was.

We were just building that like, it just happened to be one of the projects that we were working on.

And maybe Thomas knew, but I would, I would say more than worrying about, am I in the right place?

I just try to find out, am I at peace in my mind and in my heart?

Right.

If I'm at peace in my mind and in my heart with what I'm doing and where I'm going, then I'm on the right track.

That's my compass.

And I'd love to talk about the misconception part here, because the mainstream conversation right now is very, very loud and very, I'd say, shallow in a lot of ways.

So everyone has the option, and most people have very little context also.

So my curiosity is, like, from where you sit, having seen in this space for 15 years, what is the biggest misconception that bothers you the most?

Like, the thing people keep getting wrong about A.I.

Sure.

I mean, A.I.

Is fun.

And so I don't want to put down the bananas and the images that can be created by it.

But there's a saying in the business world, and that's busy as broke.

If you're busy, right, you're not being productive and you're not being profitable with what you're doing, then it's probably going to cost you in the long run.

You're losing out an opportunity.

And so I was talking with my community, the AI Marketplace, yesterday, and we have Dr. Danny Brcell was in there and Dr. Justin Pierce and Rob Broadhead.

I mean, these are really, really great leaders.

And I, I told him, I said, guys, you know, it's kind of like a trek across, you know, hundreds of miles.

There's these people who are taking off fast, and they've got a head start on us, right?

They're, they're going out there, but unfortunately, they're not preparing the basics, the fundamentals.

They're not looking at what does the infrastructure look like to make things safe for those who follow them.

And the Followers who are going and having fun with that.

What's going to be interesting.

I said, guys, here's the difference in us.

We're focused on leadership of AI.

How can we lead AI with love, with.

With patience, with persistence, with consistency, with reliability.

And we're going to use a compass for our journey.

We're not going to just guess.

We're going to use a compass.

We're going to use a map.

We're going to have the right tools.

And what's going to happen is we're going to come across these.

These people who led people off into the desert and put them in a position where they weren't well prepared for the future.

And we're going to invite them like, hey, come on, we got provisions.

We prepared for this, we planned for it.

It's.

It's not.

I don't like the.

I'm not a big fan of the hype side of it.

I do like celebrating.

I do like the victories and of course, having some fun with it.

But fun is no longer fun when you haven't prepared well for your journey and your experience.

So I hope more people pay attention to what Boston College reported about, which is it's not the tools and it's not the technology that we need to be focusing on.

It's the leadership and the people, the processes for the people.

If we focus on leadership and processes for the people, we can create AI that is profitable and productive.

Very true, very true.

So, and, and when that misconception drives business decisions, or maybe the personal ones, what does the damage actually look like?

Well, I think we're seeing it everywhere, but I'll give an example.

There's a Kajabi hero.

I mean, one of Kajabi's poster children.

I won't say who it is, but she teaches a certain segment of the.

Of the market how to run their own business from home.

She makes less than a janitor makes.

She's got 500,000 followers, and she lies to them about how successful she is, and she does photo shoots to make her life look glamorous.

And with AI, that's just becoming that much easier to do.

And so if we want to protect ourselves from the wolves in sheep's clothing, or as I also like to say, the sheep in shepherd's clothing, the ones who can't really protect you and can't really help you and don't really know what they're doing, then we have to understand how to analyze the principles of success, of true leadership.

Authenticity, integrity, discipline.

Usually, usually everything that's opposite of get rich quick.

And a lot of people think they're not participating get rich quick, but they say things like, build wealth fast.

It's the same thing.

You just spun it in a different direction.

If you're trying to get.

If you're trying to create a program to make you successful within 90 days, good luck.

You know, I feel bad for people who are stuck on those paths, so.

And I have to say that the loudest voices in the room are often the ones with the least Runway behind them.

And there's a real cost to, I'd say, mistaking the noise for insights.

So.

Yeah, correct.

That's.

That's definitely.

I mean, it's worth going deeper into it.

So if you talk about the root causes here, you have worked across SaaS, hospitality, tech media, Y Combinator, startups.

So.

And that's a lot of different contexts, a lot of different problems.

So when you look back across all of it, what is the underlying pattern you kept seeing in the, I'd say companies or the founders who struggled most with the technology?

Like, was it a kind of technology itself or is it something different?

Totally.

Sure.

I. I think it.

Patrick Lencioni hit it on the head with five dysfunctions of a team and Michael Gerber of the E Myth as well.

And really it comes down to am I delegating by abdication or am I delegating responsibly?

And if I'm gonna delegate responsibly, that means I have to learn enough about all these different roles and what roles I need.

And I need to stop acting like a solopreneur.

So what are some of the patterns?

I recognized my patterns, and pretty much nobody's patterns as a consultant matter unless you've been able to work in championship cultures enough and enough diverse championship cultures, because they're all different.

Right?

The Boston Celtics don't play the game of basketball like the Los Angeles Lakers.

They don't build their organizations the same way.

And so there's not one successful path.

But it is really helpful when you have somebody who has access to playing for both environments.

All right?

Being able to see behind the scenes and what really goes on.

So I would say at Video Power, I got the greatest opportunity to be able to see behind the scenes of ultra successful companies.

Our minimum ticket for running, for running YouTube ads was $10,000 per month on YouTube ads, way back before YouTube was cool and popular.

And so our clients, they were spending huge amounts of money in other channels why they were successful.

So whether it was John Lee Dumas and his campaigns, or Dan Martell or Vivint or coreldraw or yahoo.com, i got to see so many different organizations and how they run their advertising campaigns, how they run their cultures.

Dr. Eric Berg coming in.

Michael Hyatt, TRV Ecker, Lewis House.

All these people had the very similar realities.

One, they were experts in their field, and they had been experts for five to ten years at minimum.

Those people don't give up.

Right?

That's a huge factor.

Two, they always took notes and heard people's opinions out to talk about the struggle.

Most entrepreneurs, their ego, unfortunately, gets in the way, and they.

They think that they've got an executive assistant who can teach them or they have a coach who's going to help them.

That's not an infrastructure for a business.

You.

You need a much more abundant mindset about how growth works in order to expand your vision.

And it can't just be you as a sole visionary.

There's a.

There's a great quote.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And usually you can't feel it and you can't see it.

It's not a matter of comparing to Hitler.

Like, that's like the ultra corruption.

I'm talking about the entrepreneur who thinks he's taking good care of his virtual assistant, but they're actually taking advantage of the virtual assistant, and they're not even paying attention to, who are your kids?

What are their names?

What do you want to do in life beyond work for me?

Do you make enough money for your budget?

You know, and then they just listen to the, yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

Well, that virtual assistant's lying to you.

They don't want to lose their job.

They don't want to get kicked out by saying that, no, you need to double their salary.

And so there's.

There's just not enough leadership development or practice in the world of entrepreneurship.

And until entrepreneurs start shifting their focus to how do I become a better leader, which I need to be myself every day.

I need to be practicing.

How can I be a better leader if I'm not?

I'm going to fall short of the people I'm supposed to be serving.

Oh.

And I mean in your own journey, building.

Before there was a roadmap, right.

And before there was a community that understood, like, what you were doing.

What was the hardest internal thing to manage?

Like, not the technical challenge, but the actual human part of it.

Yeah.

Well, I think coming to admit out loud what a bad leader I was, that's probably the hardest thing was you Know one, recognizing it, two, being willing to admit it, and then three, having the patience to be able to develop and say, you know what I am.

I'm not very good at this leadership thing.

I'm not diplomatic.

I tend to tell people what to do versus create space for them and invite them.

I had to relearn the vocabulary I would use.

And so instead of telling people what they should do or what they needed to do, I began shifting to here's what I would invite you to do, here's what you could do.

And while that might sound rudimentary, it has fundamentally changed my relationships.

And in a society where we tend to move towards things like this is what you should do or you heard me a second ago, I said you guys need to do X, Y or Z.

It's like, no, I'm not God.

It is not my job to tell you what you need to do with your business.

Right.

And so even, even though I've practiced the principles for years now and continued to develop, I know that I still have a long ways to go in terms of being able to lead millions of people or billions of people, whatever my, my purpose and calling is, whatever extent that looks like.

But one of the greatest secrets to, to overcome that havoc that I faced was the day when I realized I didn't need to be better than others.

I just needed to be my best self.

And if I could focus on being my best self, I would have my best life possible.

There's no comparison.

It doesn't matter anymore.

I just need to be my best self in order to, in order to figure out what my best life is going to look like.

Took a lot of the pressure off.

Exactly.

So I mean, there's something really important in that like being urge or something is not just a kind of strategic position, it's a psychological one as well.

And you are carrying a conviction the world hasn't validated yet.

And I have to say that that's a particular thing or maybe particular kind of resilience.

So thank you for naming it that and like how it shows up in the real life.

That is also a good question, I believe.

So if, if we see.

I mean let's bring something into tangible.

Like you talk about using technology to bridge the economic opportunity across the Americas and, and that framing immediately caught my attention because it's not just the usual story.

Most AI conversations are about efficiency, scale, automations and all those things.

Right, right.

So you are.

But you're talking about access and equity.

So what does that actually look like on the Ground itself.

Like, where are you seeing intelligence systems generally change someone's economics reality?

Oh, man, I love the question.

Thank you for that.

And those of you who don't know, I live in Ecuador, I live in South America right now.

You probably hear construction and buses in the background, because I live in the heart of my mission, and that's to bridge the economic gap between North America, South America and rest of the world.

And so my eyes have been open so many different times.

And I was like, wow, it's really neat.

You know, we didn't get that in the United States and all the plazas had WI fi.

And again, we didn't have that in the United States back then.

And I had read a book called the World is Flat by Thomas Friedman, the New York Times bestselling author.

And it talked about how because of technology, yes, the opportunities are starting to arrive in underdeveloped countries.

So I.

It was neat to see that firsthand and how, wow, that was going to change and affect the world.

I started to ask people to, you know, join Facebook so I could stay in touch with them.

They had no idea what Facebook was.

Nobody had ever used it before down there.

And nowadays the.

Oh.

So I got home from that and about a year and a half later, I decided to do my own podcast episode.

It was a one and done in Spanish and I struggled through explaining, but I had a theory.

I was like, you know what?

I wonder how many of my Spanish counterparts know about fiverr.com or know about Odesk.

I think it was called a time Upwork.

And I wonder how many of them know about Canva and that they could be designers or social media marketing.

And that's a thing because I lived in Texas too.

And in Texas there's a lot of Spanish speakers.

And so I was like, we know most people don't.

Most of these businesses haven't tapped into the Spanish speaking market.

All the Spanish speakers have to just learn English or get left out.

And so I was like, man, there's a.

There's a huge opportunity here.

So I sent it.

I sent that episode I posted on YouTube.

I sent it to over 40 people that I knew in Central and South America.

Small sample size, but.

But very, very intelligent people.

And none of them had heard of any of that.

They hadn't heard of LinkedIn, they hadn't heard of anything that we take for granted in the United States.

And so I realized like, wow, even just the power of having access to each of those platforms to learn about it is a huge advantage in life.

Just like when I was given Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I was given Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I listened to that book, it changed my life overnight.

Or I was like, holy crap, like, I can see the world in such a different way now.

I read Success magazine.

I listened to interviews with John Maxwell and Jim Rohn and stuff.

And don't get me wrong, every single one of those points that I had access to was something I could take for granted that was blessing me immensely with powers that nobody else in the world not listening to that had.

And that once again, nobody in central South America had access to that.

Then we was able to listen to Jim Rohner, Success magazine.

And it's always like, whoa, we can, through the power of education, we can educate the world.

So the world then has the opportunity to do with, with it what they want.

And so that's.

I don't know if I got off track with your question or not, but I get so passionate about this reality because when we empower the individuals who don't have opportunity.

I mean in, in, in Colombia, for instance, the minimum wage is 307, $350 per month, per month for full time work.

I say if you could hire people down there to, down here where I'm at, to work with you and they can use AI to translate all their work.

They don't even have to speak your language.

They want the work, they want to come to the office.

They want to be able to stay at home with their families and be able to do the work.

There's so many people who have untapped potential.

And if you can then teach them principles of executive leadership and behaviors and them spend a couple thousand dollars on that if you want to, or like I do, spend a ton of time with them, teaching them and learning their languages too.

There's so many ways you can exponentially compound what it is you're capable of doing.

As they say, many hands make light work.

Let's empower the hands in the world to come in and help us on the work.

Because AI needs guidance from human beings.

It can't, it can't do the work alone.

Not, not, not to the level of abundance that we could, if we would empower both people and AI to help us on productivity and profitability.

Exactly, exactly true.

Also, if I ask like 15 years of intelligent systems building it, and that's hard won pattern recognition.

So for a business owner, founder, or someone in a leadership role who wants to think more clearly about, like how to use AI in their work without getting swept up in the hype or kind of paralyzed by the fear.

So where do you actually start?

Well, I always start with, as Simon Sinek says, start with why?

No, start with who.

I would have never cared about Simon Sinek's book if he was a bad actor, if he wasn't a great leader.

And so I love the idea of starting with why after you figure out the who.

So my point with that founder is entre.

I don't care how smart you are.

It's so sad when the founder says, well, I could do this better myself, who cares?

You don't have the time.

You've got a hundred things to do.

And so let go of all the things and let go of your ego and empower people.

And if you can do it better than your people, then you obviously aren't training your people well enough.

So train your people right?

So that ego has to be let go of.

And as a founder, as an entrepreneur, go get the right people to help you do these things.

Be grateful for whatever level they're at.

And if you continue to work on your recruiting powers, if you don't have people who are better than you at what you do, you're probably underpaying your people, you're probably not recruiting people the right way.

Right?

So it all comes back to when we're pointing our fingers at everything else and everybody else, there's three fingers pointing back at us.

We've got to do a better job at leading.

So how do you recognize the greats?

One, start researching terms as well, like CRO, conversion rate optimization.

Right.

If, if you even just knowing that term and asking AI about it, then know that if you're working with an executive who doesn't know what CRO is, they're probably not that qualified to help you with growth.

And so there's lots of little things that can kind of, you can hack your way to figure it out on your own.

You could be the one unicorn who's the solopreneur that wins.

I've never met one, though.

I've.

I've always met unicorns that fall on their face and that don't have the depth or the breadth to be able to sustain what they're doing.

And so you gotta be able to work with team.

And where does team start?

It starts with who get great people by your side.

That's a very good saying.

Great people by side.

Also, like, I want to ask you about the moments where things didn't work.

15 Years is huge.

And with what many moving parts.

Like, there had to be kind of, I believe, the failures that were formative, not the kind that you put in a kind of keynote slide, but the kind that actually changed how you think.

So what did getting something seriously wrong teach you that?

Getting it right?

Never good.

So many things.

But divorce, that's a.

That's a painful and big one, you know, and it.

It takes two to tango.

You know, we.

We both had our pros and our cons, our strengths, our mistakes.

I had plenty of mistakes on my side of that.

That's what opened my eyes to what a bad leader I was.

I was like, dang, I can't even really connect well with the person that supposed to love most and it's supposed to love me most.

Like, I'm.

I gotta be pretty lost on this leadership thing.

So that.

That's a big one.

Other clients, too.

I'm.

I'm a very.

I'm a fighter, not a. I'm not.

There's flight versus fight, people.

I'm a fighter.

And, you know, I had to learn to become more diplomatic for one, but two, also recognizing that not.

Not everybody in this world is compatible either or has a desire to build relationships in the same way.

And so, you know, if you're built for the UFC ring, for instance, let's say that you're an ultimate fighter champion, you know, real into Krav Magra and whatever they do, jiu jitsu and all that in other rings, you know, like if.

Let's just say you took that person and put them with a bunch of librarians, that person's gonna be seen as abusive.

And it's like, no, they're not abusive.

They're just in the wrong den, if you will.

The.

You know, the lion's den can't have gazelles in it.

It just can't.

If you're a gazelle, you go with gazelles.

If you're a lion, you need to be with the lions as people.

We do have divisions like that to an extent, so I realized that.

So I'll.

I'll fork into two areas on this avic.

On one side, the lions.

Those are my people, man.

Like, I'm.

I'm tenacious, I'm determined.

Like, I'm going to come on a podcast, even though I got two black eyes, you know, I got a bust, like two busted lips.

Too, like, whatever, like, I'm going to show up.

But if I'm going to be a leader of millions or potentially billions, which terrifies me still, I need to know how to relate to the rest of the, of the types of groups of people that exist out there.

And I need to be able to also work with them in a way that inspires them.

And that's that I'm still learning hard lessons about that to this day.

Avik.

And so I got a great team who keeps me in check.

And they are some, they're people that I always ask, like, accountability wise, how can I be better?

What could I have said softer?

What can I do more?

What books should I be reading?

Um, how do I.

How do I assuage fears in these instances?

I came across kind of harsh in that conversation.

What do you guys think about it?

What could have made this more pleasant for that person or created more workability?

I've got coaches, I've got therapists, I've got great leaders by my side.

I'm constantly picking their brains, figuring out how do I take it to the next level.

Because, Avik, if you're gonna.

It doesn't matter how great we get.

I don't think in life, if we're continuing to expand, we're going to fall into more and more situations where we're going to learn painful lessons.

And that's what, that's what helps us grow, too.

Exactly.

I believe, Jackson.

I mean, this is a really, really a great conversation.

And so if you have to give one advice to the listeners today, what that will be?

Love.

That's, you know, love is a verb.

And I didn't realize that as much as I should have.

I did love, but I mostly wanted love from others.

It was a.

Was the now inside that I wanted to have it, to feel it, to appreciate it, but to dive into doing the act of love with the five love languages and other themes, it's not something just for family and friends.

Service, you know, sales, when it's done right, is service.

And what is service?

It's helping people and providing a benefit.

If we provide enough benefit to enough people, then that creates an abundance as well.

The more you give, the more you get.

It's scientifically proven, and so it's almost pragmatic, if you will.

But I think love is the greatest power on earth, and if we can tap into it with greater purpose and intention, then I think it unlocks a level of abundance that nothing else can compete with.

And also, like, if someone wants to connect with you what will be the best medium or how they would connect with you.

Two opportunities, I would say.

One Vision Pros Live.

That's my podcast.

We interview visionary leaders.

It's a starter stage even if you're at the beginning of your vision.

Come on visionproslive.com, be our guest.

That would be amazing.

Havoc.

We'd love to have you as well come on the show.

I don't think I've had you on there yet.

We're 2,500 episodes in or a little bit more than that.

And it would be fantastic to have you.

I like your cadence and the questions you ask.

This is such a.

It's not just about the name, the healthy mind aspect.

It's obvious that you really appreciate and understand the depths of diving into that at levels that most people take for granted that, that have gotten to.

To understand or appreciate this.

And you don't only dive into it like you've created a podcast around it.

So that's, that's one and the other one would be the AI Marketplace.

So if you go to AI firstclassbusiness IO, that's the primary page or forward slash depth, that's the super page for it.

But we have a grant application process for free.

Anybody can come in and join as a founding member and pay if they want to.

But we don't want anybody left behind in the world of AI.

So if anybody wants to learn about AI and leadership and implementing AI that's productive and profitable, come and join us in that.

We'd love to have you.

Amazing.

That's really, really amazing.

And dear listeners, I'll just say that I'll put all those links and the details into the show notes for the easy reference.

And I have to say first of all, thank you so much for the invite station and I would really love to be there and like what you are doing for people, what you are doing for the leaders.

It's really amazing.

And one learning.

Dear listeners, if I have to say, or maybe you could say a key takeaway.

The people who were building before it had a name weren't lucky.

They were paying a different kind of attention.

And that attention is still, I'd say the most valuable technology anyone can develop that that I'm.

I'm definitely taking away.

And also I'd say that dear listeners, that's the wrap up today's episode on Mind Means Machine.

And if this conversation started something in you, maybe a question, a shift or a quiet like I needed to hear that, just trust that that's your signal.

As I mentioned, Jackson's details, I'll put it into the show notes.

If this episode belongs in someone else's ears, please share it.

Not for the numbers just, but because the right conversation at the right time, it genuinely matters.

It genuinely changes things.

So with this Hope.

This is your host, Avik, and this is Mindleet's machine.

Stay curious, stay honest, and keep building the thing you only can build.

So, see you next time.

Thank you so much.

Namaste.