It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I catch up with Paul Woodford to talk about his remarkable return to rallying since the pandemic. After stepping away from the sport for fourteen years, Paul explains what drew him back behind the wheel and how quickly things have escalated since.

Paul walks me through the wide range of machinery he has driven recently, from classic Mini Coopers to purpose-built Dakar-style rally cars, highlighting just how varied and demanding his rallying journey has become. We also reflect on the current state of the sport, discussing where rallying has lost some of its character and what might be needed to reignite wider engagement.

The conversation turns to the growing appeal of historic rallying, a scene that is attracting both long-standing competitors and a new generation of drivers. It offers a hopeful glimpse into a side of the sport that still values spectacle, personality, and accessibility.

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I would like to reintroduce the backseat driver, a chap who was on a while ago discussing his passion for clan crusaders.

Well, things have definitely moved on since then, so I'd like to welcome back to the backseat driver, Paul Woodford.

Paul, welcome back.

Thank you, Mark.

A lot has happened, hasn't it, since lockdown when we last spoke.

Yeah, I mean, you've progressed on quite a lot from what you were doing, haven't you?

Yeah, I'm on a whole new adventure, which I didn't think would happen.

Well, you've turned into a bit of a.

You stop driving, a bit of a YouTube and rallying superstar.

Well, in my own head, probably, but I thought I stopped rally driving 14 years ago and here I am pretending to be rally driver again.

I mean, what exactly are you doing?

Because, I mean we've all.

I've only just managed to track you down because you've been on the Roger Albert Clark and various other things.

What are you doing these days?

It has been the busiest year of my life, rally wise.

I'm still doing the rally TV presenting, so we're live on more rallies than we ever were.

We've done the full BTRDA Pro Tyre Gravel Pro Tyre Asphalt Championship, we've done the Pro Tyre Circuit Rally Championship, albeit I've got another presenter that works with me on some of this stuff.

And we've done various one offs as well through the year, including, as you say, the Roger Arbour Clark, which has almost become a bit of a cult event, hasn't it?

In itself with our retro rally report shows as well.

But in the midst of all of that, I've started rally driving again, which is a little bit crazy because I ran out of talent and money the first time down and while somebody else tends to pay for it these days, unfortunately they can't give me any talent to go with the cars.

It's funny how things don't change that much.

What are you rallying?

All sorts from.

I've had a right year of it, actually.

From Mini Cooper s Mini Rally challenge cars, the modern Mini Coopers, to road rally, MG ZRS to a Dakar spec Bo, a Wildcat on a Comm safari adventure to a Puma Targa rally car.

It's been a mad year.

Formula two Micra.

Yeah, Git car.

It's been mad.

It really has been mad.

I've had the.

The busiest rally year ever and it's been awesome.

How do you find switching from car to car?

Because I mean, when I raced and then I did the.

Well The French call it rallying, we call it road racing.

The big European events, okay, I was always driving 911s but they were all different 911s.

I used to like to acclimatize myself to them a little bit.

How do you go on driving?

I mean like a bowler Land Rover is an insane machine.

It is.

And that took a lot of getting used to.

I went for a test in the car and I've been lucky enough and the teams that have asked me to drive these cars have usually provided a test.

You know what, jumping from micro kit car to a bowler, Wildcat to a Mini, that's actually okay because you're expecting there to be a big culture shock when you climb around the wheel and you almost go into sponge mode and learn everything you can in the first few minutes you're behind the wheel if you get lucky enough to get a test and you sponge it all up.

But what I've found more difficult I think I've driven four different Mini Rally challenge cars have all been built brand new.

We do the events and then they've been sold onto customers that are then going to, to do the championship Spark Developments is the team that has come up with this, this project we've been on.

So I've driven four different cars plus a road rally spec Mini Cooper S which I'm actually driving around on the road and to events at the minute.

And that I found more difficult because each one of them you expect to be the same and they're all, all ever so different even with the same spec, same challenge spec, suspension diff, they're all completely different, they have different characteristics, tips.

And the last one that I drove, the gray one that we did Cadwell and Blyton in when we came home, fastest Mini on both those events which was fantastic.

Yeah, I love that you haven't lost the Woodford touch.

No, I mean it was a self entitled class.

We can't win.

The classes that are there make one up you can win.

So it wasn't a round of the Mini Rally challenge but there were quite a few Minis out.

There were 10 I think at Cadwell all to do.

I didn't care about class results on the day or overall results.

I just wanted to come home first Mini.

So that was my own little challenge to myself.

But getting used to the differences between those Minis was the hardest thing.

And I crashed two of them.

Well I crashed one of them and one of them blew the engine up on the first stage.

So yeah it was a bit, that was Harder.

That surprised me how different the same car can be with the same spec, built from a bare shell by the same team.

But this characteristics can be completely different.

Suit you down to the ground or making nervous on edge.

Yeah.

Now one of the main reasons for our chat is rallying and the state of.

And we were saying before we went on air, as time's gone by, WRC doesn't hold the allure for me that it wants it.

I used to.

It's a bit like the good old days when the Lombard RAC was on television about half past 10, quarter 11 at night.

You never ever missed that.

It was an incredible thing.

Now, unless I don't know whether it's ITV4 or Quest or whoever shows it, if I miss it, I'm not remotely bothered.

Is it losing its appeal, wic, apart from those taking part in it, is everybody else getting fed up of it?

I don't know.

It certainly has lost the crowds, hasn't it?

And it's lost the wide universal appeal it used to have because it's more detached from real life and from the cars we drive every day.

But they're all a bit rubbish anyway.

So I suppose there's.

There's your reason.

It still has the appeal for me.

They still the halo product of our sport and you know, I've.

I've been lucky enough to host some events at the Motorist in near Leeds.

It pulls in a massive CR about it.

It does have a very loyal following.

I think it just lost its way a little bit with the promotion and you know what, every single stage is live.

If we could have had that back in the Lombard RAC rally days, we'd have all been.

Well, we never got any work done, would we?

So there are parts of it that are better, there are parts we've learned how to do better.

But I think it needs.

The word is inspiration.

How.

They come in now.

Probably a little bit like F1.

The other thing I find with modern rallying, it's lost its characters.

I mean, I can remember good old Roger Albert Clark, I can remember having a pint with him one night in a Ponsum in The Midlands.

Tony Pons and his passion for a pot of tea guns.

Modern rallying seems to have lost its characters.

I agree with that and I don't think it's the fault of the individuals.

I think they've become elite sports men and women and I think they have been trained in a certain way because manufacturers want them to be show people and sales people and they want them to be PR people.

Yeah.

And I think we have, we've trained it out of all of our sports people.

I've worked in nurse sport, I've also worked in professional football and we, we spend so much effort and time investment training character out of people so they can be a brand and a, you know, an asset or a product.

It kind of kills a little bit of that.

Again, that word inspiration you look at.

I mean, I love Elvin to bits, but he's been PR trained to death.

So when you see him on wrc, on the coverage, he's like a PR robot.

When you see him in real life and you chat to him like I did the event we held, and you spend some time with him, you find out that he's not.

He's a fantastic character and he's got the fire in his belly and he's got the quips and the jokes and he will have a bit of banter about his fellow competitors and we miss that and the fans as a whole miss that.

And I think that's really sad.

I mean, where do you think this manufactured personality comes from?

I mean, who, who do you think decided that they had to be like this?

I think we've all done it collectively because I think people get canceled for the slightest thing now, so people don't say anything.

Yeah, I, I'm presenting live rallying and I am constantly second guessing as I'm talking.

Can I say that?

Will anyone take that the wrong way?

And you've got to be so careful.

So when you, the spotlight's on you and you have a multi million pound pot with a manufacturer or a sponsor, you can't afford to get it wrong.

Yeah.

So I get it, they're all on edge because, I mean, you look at.

Was it Kyle Larson?

I think it was, wasn't it?

During lockdown in NASCAR did use an unfortunate term they really shouldn't have used, but in the context it wasn't quite that and it got completely cancelled.

Yeah.

And that got sort of reversed once people had put the sensible hats on and he'd apologized for, you know, what it looked like out of context and the people involved all accept and that moved on.

But at the time he lost his drive, he lost his sponsors.

That's really hard.

I mean he's got champion now, so it didn't put too much of a dent in things.

But I think we are all, every single level, too scared to show our character in some context, aren't we?

I know I used to freelance on, I won't name it, but shall we say a well known national broadcasting company.

And I was given one morning a sheet of paper with what I could and couldn't talk about and I looked at the young girl who looked like she should still have been at school and said, you've rather shut me up, I can't say anything.

And they look staggered and you think, why is it, why is it being allowed to get this way?

Why can't you say what I mean?

Like the good old days of James Hunt passing comment.

One of the great.

One of the great, yeah.

Ralph Schumacher used to come out with some cracking sayings and Vettel used to say, great Irvine.

Yes.

See how Eddie Irvine wouldn't, wouldn't get past the first race before being banned by the FIA these days.

Well, I don't like Mark.

I kind of understand that to a degree.

I think the world's a bit of a difficult place.

It's, it's dangerous.

We need to descale some of the kind of rhetoric and the, the violence in our language and things I do believe in, in the use of language, how powerful that is.

But what I don't believe it is when you've got the FIA finding a driver for swearing and then it is patently obvious that there is misogyny and there is corruption and various other nasty things going on, not even behind the scenes.

And you know, you've got the FIA president pointing himself pretty much because the rules state that he can't be opposed.

I can't get my head around that.

You know, we've got one set of rules for the people who are on camera and doing the business and got another set of rules for the people who are running the show.

Don't believe in that.

I mean somebody said, well, that's where it falls down.

Yeah, I mean somebody said to me, when you did it?

I said, well, when I did it, I said, we didn't have picture car radios.

I said, we had the pitboards.

I said, and you used to have to make sure they wagged it about sufficiently so you could see the damn thing.

But there were various comments used to appear on my pitboard which were politically incorrect.

But back then, you never, ever thought anything about it.

Equally.

Picture of a Datsun on my wall in McGarry's, where I was at now, Landy Gorson.

And on the wing is a wanker.

Sorry, an anchor next to his name.

Yeah, but you couldn't do that now.

And it was.

He's in the picture, by the way, and he's clearly finding it hilarious.

And he's there with his mechanics.

But can you imagine doing that now on a works car?

Not that I would agree with doing that now, to be fair, or even doing it then, but he was clearly in on the joke.

And, you know, I think, you know, we have to have a sense of humor, don't we?

Yeah.

I mean, I know Andy.

I mean, he's a priceless guy.

Absolutely one hell of a driver, but.

A very funny charact.

Yeah.

What a character.

Yeah, he's.

He's pretty much the epitome of what we just talked about, isn't he?

Yeah.

Said it how it was.

And he still does now, you know, he still says it as it is and he's still a character, but unfortunately, people like him don't exist anymore in our Frontline Sports.

You know, sponsors don't want him, but I reckon the first one that comes along who actually says no, sort of, that I'm going to be a character and I'm going to do all of that.

I think that person's probably going to steal a match.

I think they'll suddenly.

That's all it'll take.

Yeah.

Do you think there'll be a swing at some point when we do get someone online?

I mean, somebody once said to me about lady racing drivers.

I have a reputation of interviewing lady racing drivers.

In fact, I have one coming up in the next few days.

But I once said to somebody, I said, I'll tell you this now.

I said, lady racing drivers, as a rule, can outswear the men.

I said, and when you.

When you're in the paddock or on a circuit or wherever you are with lady racing drivers, I said, after a while, I said, you tend to forget they're a member of.

This is offensive.

The gentle sex.

I said, it's just another driver.

And your conversation is exactly as it is normally.

I said, most people with delicate ears should never ever enter a pit lane.

Yeah.

Or rally service area, rally surface area.

I mean, I spent some time with Louisa Aiken Walker.

I'm very lucky to be able to say that.

She's an absolute legend.

She's a hero of mine, but she is the Most hilarious person, especially after.

A couple of drinks.

She's brilliant and like you say, she's one of the biggest characters in our sport and she just sets it as it is.

And again, we've done.

I've done an event with her, a Q A fun forum event.

And she was just.

She was.

Great value.

Yes.

Came out with this story.

She gave it large and, you know, she had eyebrows on the ceiling for quite a lot of it.

Yeah.

I love those sorts of characters.

That's why I think we love you.

And I were saying this.

I love historic rallying for that because it sort of seems to go with the territory that you can still have a few of those characters and you can still get away with saying a few things that you might not ordinarily say.

Because we're all reliving the past.

Yeah.

I mean, the interesting thing, just an aside, I managed to talk Louise into coming on the show.

She didn't want to come on.

I said, come on, Louise.

I said, I have to come up to Dunn's.

I want to visit the Jim Clark Museum.

I said, I'll drive the opposite side of Duns.

And she said, go on then, go on then.

And she once said to me, I will never, ever give you the full story of the famous crash.

So I asked her halfway through, I said, what exactly happened?

And she talked about it for a good 20 odd minutes.

And I said, thank you.

I said, because that's cleared up a lot of things.

I said, everybody put it down to driver error.

I said, and it wasn't.

I said, which is a great thing.

I said, we now know, like anybody else, driving on shot ice and gravel on a set of slicks is not the best idea.

Yeah.

But these things happen, don't they?

Yeah, she's quite happy to talk about that now.

And the other thing I noticed with modern wrc, I think one of them is it Tanac wants to become an F1 driver.

And you think, well, you can't suddenly just switch.

I'm positive.

You can't just go from a WRC car to an F1 car.

I think you're talking about Calais revamp.

Right.

Salah's retired to spend more time with his family, but revampery.

Yeah.

He's gone into two.

He's been doing the super formula and he's going into what he hopes will be a trajectory towards Formula one.

Now he's left wrc.

But I, like you, think that he is very much mistaken if he thinks that that world is as easy to step into as he seems to think it is.

He's.

I mean he's, he's an incredible talent.

But again, I think we've been robbed of his character because we don't know anything about him.

No, we don't want talk.

He don't want to give us any flavor of his life.

He.

I. Yeah, we robbed of that a little bit because I've known him, I've met him a few times when he was a kid.

But his dad, when we were interviewing his dad, Harry Romper and he was a right little character as is his dad.

So.

Yeah, I don't know how that's going to go for him.

Well, I mean the road to a super license is not an easy one.

You have got to have won numerous things and proven yourself.

Loeb.

Yeah.

Sebastian Loeb couldn't get one even to do a test, could he?

So, yeah, I'm not sure.

It's.

It would be great to see.

We've.

I don't think we've ever seen it but we randomly.

I've seen a few F1 drivers crash a few rally cars, haven't we?

Yeah.

No, I, I don't know.

I. I think.

I think that's sad but I think it's.

It's more worrying for the part time driver than the championship this year, if I'm really honest.

And the fact that Calais was allowed to go part time and not have his full focus on the sport that has given him so much, I think is.

Is a little bit unfortunate.

I think we've.

We've lost our way a little bit in that respect.

Ironically enough, a part time driver, I mean look at Volta Roll.

He won a championship and he only wanted to do a few events and he still went out and won it.

But I think back then it was definitely different, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was that.

That was more.

He wouldn't do certain events that wasn't.

I'm a part time driver.

That was.

I just will not do those events.

Yeah.

Because of, because of risk.

Because of.

I can't remember what the risk was.

It wasn't it.

Who didn't want to risk the build particular events that he just knew it was too much of a risk for him.

And I think in those days with safety as it was, I think that was a very different motivation.

Well, I think one of the rally.

Too busy doing everything else.

One of the rallies he would refuse to do is one like.

I don't know whether it was Africa or wherever and he said the car spends all of its time in the Air.

He said, if I wanted to fly, I would have become a pilot.

Yeah, fair enough.

Yeah.

I think that's a.

That's a little different on that front.

I think the fact that Calais is part time is because he's too busy focusing on those different things and becoming a sports person generally.

But you look at Ogier.

Yeah.

He's not doing any events that clash with half term next week, next year.

That's literally what he said.

He said, if it's a school holiday in France, you won't see me at the rally.

It was not then you might.

That's the world champion.

So I just think we need to get back to being all on red and, you know, being all in on it.

And I think, like you said, the characters need to come back.

I think the coverage is great.

I think the format's brilliant, but I think, you know, they need to have more to show.

Yeah, yeah.

I think with this, with modern rallying, because you can't tell what anything is.

They all look alike.

And in my opinion, it's only my opinion this, but historic rallying, it's been gaining fan momentum for a long while, besides the participants, who all love it, and it's given a lot of oldies the chance to reappear in their old rally cars or go and get an old rally car.

Historic rallying is becoming, in my opinion, increasingly popular.

I mean, we've just had the rac, but it's now the Roger Albert Clark, not the Lombard rac.

And, I mean, the passion for the Roger Albert Clark is phenomenal.

It is.

And to be honest, I still call it the Art Bar ac.

Yes, it's his initials, so I'm happy with that.

I always want to be a TV presenter because of the RAC rally coverage from Rally Report.

So for me, I'm calling it the RAC Rally because I'm getting my chance.

I see that event as being something a little more.

I think we all need a little bit of an escape.

And I think everybody, whether you're sat at home watching the coverage, whether you're out on the road following the rally, whether you're marching, whether you're competing, I think everybody that week goes on a little bit of a pilgrimage, either geographically, either spiritually, back to a place that you were happier in back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, but everybody does the Roger Albert Clark Rally in a slightly different way.

It means slightly different things.

And it is very much more than just a rally these days.

It is a pilgrimage.

It's just fantastic.

The other thing is, because of the distance it covers, which to my mind is great.

I can remember Don Barrell saying to me when I interviewed him, you do know we drove stages that were longer than a modern rally.

And he thinks, yes, you probably do.

All the little car clubs get the chance to come out and shine with their marshalling and everything else, which is how it used to be.

Yeah.

700 car clubs were involved in the organization of the Roger Arbor Clark.

The last stage alone was.

Well, it's meant to be 40 miles.

It was.

Ended up being 37 and just short of 37 and a half miles.

Like you say, that is the length of a rally these days.

That sort of gives a bit of a hint of what used to happen.

And it is great.

And the guys.

The one thing I don't like about it, and this is just life, this is not a criticism of the organizers at all, the competitors for that matter.

But the road section from the Welsh leg up to the northern leg in Scotland or Carlisle, where they base themselves is allowed to be a transit session on a trailer.

Now, practicalities, it's.

It is a.

It's not professional teams, all that, you know, the majority is government teams and you might have someone drive each other.

I get that they need to do that.

What I would like to see personally as a rally fan, not as a representative of that event, but as a rally fan, I would like to see either bonus points or some kind of time allowance for crews that drive the road section.

If you did, the foreign crews actually tended to.

And there was a Spanish crew that drove the section in an Escort that we saw, Alonso.

But I think if there was some incentive for driving that section, I think it'll be fab because there were.

A few, few years ago I was driving up on that.

That leg up to the northern section of the rally and there were three escorts in all three lanes on the M6 and in formation, Jason Pritchard was in the lead.

I can't remember who the two were now.

I think Roger Chillman Jr. Maybe, but it was one of them.

But it was just such a sight and the cars were muddy with the.

The reg place, the lights and the numbers kind of just rubbed off like you see in the olden days.

And it gave me.

It still gives me, now I'm saying it.

Hairs standing up on the back of my neck gives me chills.

That's how Stuttgart or Weissach used to do it.

Drive it from Germany to wherever it was competing, compete and drive it back.

And my friend Ian Sloan, he was called Commander Ian Sloan.

What a man would never have dreamt of trailering these cars.

And I'll be quite honest, his ex works cars were worth a small fortune.

I was honored to be able to drive them.

But he used to insist drive them just because they're worth a lot of money does not mean you don't drive them.

Drive them and drive them hard.

And it was part of the event, was drive.

People used to love to see the cars driving to the events.

I was a kid, I used to go and watch the road section of the Roc Sometimes we never even got into the stages because that was half the magic was seeing the cars on the road.

So yeah, I completely agree with that and I do think that that could do to make a return in some way, shape or form.

But I mean I've just finished Raleigh Airwood at the weekend in my Mini Cooper S and I drove that.

I mean I'm not too far from a bit from, from Leeds.

Yeah.

But I drove that back and I put tape over the numbers on the door and off I went back home and the tape had come off by the time I got home as well.

I've put it back on now.

My dad told me the other day, you need to take your numbers off you like a boy racer.

And I said I don't care, I'll take back over the numbers, make it clear I'm not racing, I'm leaving them on for a bit because it might happen again.

But I agree driving composition cars on the roads, sensibly, respectfully, is a massive part of our sport.

It's a massive part of what made me find it so magical when I was a kid.

So I love it.

The other thing was, I mean if you go onto YouTube where it's hard to find a channel that's not got you on it, I mean they used to just, I mean service at one point service was a lay by or entrance to a farm, a farm field, they used to service and strip and rebuild cars at the side of the road and nobody thought this was unusual.

The spectators used to crowd round to watch this.

Well, thank you.

Now we're still doing that now in the Roger Arbor Clark but sadly I think that's probably one of the things that as the event grows we'll probably have to change because they're the sort of things that in modern day life are not possible with logistics anymore.

But this, this year and in the previous couple of events they've had roadside servicing so you've got management service and chase cars back and you've got crews.

We did a feature actually during the rally this, this year on the chase cruise and the remote servicing on the roads is fantastic because they're there at the end of the stage and also means the drivers can push harder because they know they've not got to do a road session about service in a central location to fix the car halfway through the day.

They can, if there's a little niggle with the car, they can get the service crew to have a look at it when they come out of the stage.

They can get little bits of adjustments done, they can have a drink, they can have a chill, they can get a, you know, a bit of a, a chat with the team manager and make sure their minds are the right frame.

Yeah.

For the next stage.

It's fantastic.

I love it.

I mean I can't, I mean historic rallying, do you find, are there many younger drivers involved or are all the cars and the Dr. And crews as old as their cars or is it attractive?

Ocean Price is what he must be either late 20s or early 30s.

He is one of the young guns in our sport and he won the event.

So no, it's, it's not a young man's sport really isn't.

I mean a lot of the front running drivers were young people a lot younger than me, I'm sorry to say.

Sputter.

You know, you guys, you're all the guys, you know, people like Steve Bastard Legends of Sport are still doing it as well and mixing it with the young guns.

But no, historic rallying has become an industry in itself.

It's become a category of the sport in itself.

And with all of these high profile events and the cars coming out, you know, the Fiat 131S from Rally Sport Developments, the Lancia Stratos that's come out, they work specifically Tony Pond Spec TR7V I should say Roger Clark's back because it was built using Roger's Sparta quite car as the, the pattern for it.

But David Appleby engineering are building those now.

So you've got all these really different cars coming out and I think that's part of it.

As well.

And there's almost a bit of an arms race now to see who can come out with a Swedish Volvo as good as the.

The Swedes themselves after this year's Roger Arbor Clark.

Because the.

The Swedish Volvos certainly put the cats among the pigeons this year.

I mean, I think the problem will be.

It's like knowing Dave Appleby historic rally is getting very expensive again.

Because I mean, sticking a Roger Clark Spec TR7V8 on the start line of a special stage is not a cheap undertaking.

It's not.

And I think, you know what those cars going for 180 grand or something, the David Appleby TR7 V8s and you know, Mark Egans has proved that you can be competitive in one, which is brilliant.

I want to see them to all sold.

I want to see them building more because they've sold out, if I'm honest.

But you're right, it's not.

It's not a cheap game.

But then rallying at a high level in any of the categories isn't a cheap game.

So I think it's probably proportionate.

Yeah.

Albeit is out of reach for the majority of us.

That's just life, isn't it?

And I think it really always has been.

We wistfully talk about the old days of the RAC and the fact that anyone could go out and do the rally, but actually that wasn't the case.

You talk to.

I've got a friend called Nigel Wurzwick who.

Oh, Nigel, yes.

He lives.

He lives about 15 minutes away from me.

Does Nigel.

I thought he might because he has the same.

He speaks the same language and he's got the same place on his passport.

Yeah.

And Nigel talks about the days of the RAC when he used to run the Sierra Cosworths and, you know, even though he built the cars himself, it was such a huge financial undertaking in those days.

So I just.

I think we can sometimes get lost in.

It's got too expensive.

It's got this and that.

Actually.

It was always expensive.

It was always a rich man or woman's game.

It was always, you know, a preserve of people that had a lot of disposable income because not everybody could afford to go out and trash a car.

Road rallying, on the other hand, and that still to the day is the same can be done cheaply.

So I think there's always an answer for those people who think that is the bit of our sport that's got away from us.

I mean, do you.

Were you old enough to remember talking to Nigel Worswick, I mean, his brother Tony, of course, was the man who rallied the.

The gallifly yellow Ferrari 308.

But people wondered why it was so quick.

Well, it was basically an F1 engine.

He managed to shovel in it because he knew Ferrari very well.

But do you remember Nigel and the year when the RAC had all the accidents and all of a sudden Nigel was like top six and everybody was riveted to the television?

I don't, but I know he likes telling the story, but I'm old enough to have been around when it happened.

But I don't remember the nuanced kind of narratives of day, as it were.

But yeah, I know there were stories like that and during killing days of we've gone, haven't they, from top level rallying, but that's what we get in the RAC again.

So, you know, you do have professional teams like David Appley engineering, like Dan Sport with the Stratos but then and Wales motorsport discs.

But then you do get your clubman guys mixing it again.

And I think that's another part of why the events are special because, you know, you don't have to be the biggest budget team in order to win it.

No.

And do you find the fans, are there a lot of young fans involved now in historic.

Do they enjoy going out to look at cars that really didn't exist?

They haven't been born when some of these cars were out there doing what they do.

Yeah, there is that said, and that's a huge part of it.

And it's the same in racing, to be fair.

I think the fans have got on board.

I think computer games helped with that.

I think no one knew what Alantis Stratos was of my generation until SEGA Rally came out.

Unless, like me, they were a rally fan.

And I think, you know, things like that popular culture does.

Does help.

I think it's killed it to a degree, but it does help as well.

But yeah, the fans were in force on the Roger Albert Clark and they were of all ages.

I mean, there's a little girl called Mabel who's always out and I don't know, she's supposed to be eight.

Seven or eight would be a bit older than that.

And she's out there, dad, on every event I seem to go to.

And then you've got, you know, people who did the RAC back when he was in the early 70s.

And when Roger Robert Clark, when Roger Robert Clark himself won it in the Uniflow Escort and people tell you stories of that on the event.

So you've got a full spectrum, but yet there are a lot of young people and I think there's a lot of people of around my age, a sort of 40 age group, sort of 30s, into the 40s, that have really got on board with historic rallying.

And that seems to be a big part of the demographic as well, which is important because those are the people that, you know, have, in a 10 years time or so maybe have got the disposable income to go and buy a historic Escort or do the rally.

So I think that's where the industry comes into it as well.

There's a real push towards building the industry up in the historical rallying sector.

And that's.

That's interesting as well.

Yeah.

Now, the one thing I do notice is while we have the Fiat 131A box, the Triumph TR7s and V8s, the Volvos, I conclude it is still the Mark 2 Escorts and the 911s that dominate in historic rallying.

Yeah, I mean, let's sell the 911s now in the classic Safari that's just finished the 911s because of Tuthill was certainly a presence to be reckoned with, but I think we're seeing less and less of them in general historic rallying.

They're just not quite as competitive.

And speaking to Seb Perez and Stratovsk, he thinks that that's the perfect combination of Escort and Porsche.

It's got the agility of the Escort and the grip of a Porsche, but the Porsche doesn't quite have the agility to beat the Escort.

So that's why we've seen less of them.

And they're expensive, of course, as you know, to prepare and run.

So the Escorts will always be ruling the roost.

And I know there are people that talk about historic rallying as being Martu Esc court rallying, but that's just life.

Yeah.

If you go to Europe, it's PNWM3s.

So, yeah.

So in my opinion, historic rally, as I said, it's gaining momentum.

In my opinion, it will con.

It will continue to gain momentum.

There seems to be no waning of enthusiasm for this, which for me is great.

It is great.

And I think we've got the right custodians.

We have not always, but I think right now we have the right custodians at our level of the sport, who are driving it, who are kind of leading on the charge and creating the opportunities for us to enjoy these cars and these events.

So I think at the minute we're in a bit of a sweet spot.

I don't think the international part of our sport is, but I think it will get there again very soon.

But I think historic rallying has just hit that sweet pot.

The right people driving it, the right fans and the right attention on it and plenty of variety and interest and a time when we look at the world and it's a bit of a dark place and we do like to look back to the 70s and 80s and remember that there were some dark times then as well, I'm sure.

But actually things were a lot more simple and cars were a lot more fun.

Yeah.

I mean, do you find there's many of the competitors from overseas come to England and are there many English historic rally drivers and crews who go abroad to compete?

Yes, to both the Europeans coming over?

Well, not just the Europeans, but the foreign drivers coming over here is something we've not seen for quite some time.

But the Roger Robert Clark is bringing that back.

So we had competitors from America from.

We have 15 different nationalities, actually, for me, listing them and missing them.

15 different nationalities on the Roger Robert Clark this year, which is incredible.

And they had seen it and they've been watching it because of course, it's an established institution itself that's been going 20 years or so.

And so these people have been watching this and then want to get out and do it themselves.

So they're putting the investment in saving up and they're coming over and they're bringing a new dynamic as well.

But we do have some crews that go out, Richard Jordan, Sam Collins for example, who are going out there and competing in Europe and historic European Rally Championship at the moment in their Mark 2 and foregoing UK events in order to do so.

In fact, it was Richard's car that Matt Edwards drove on the Roger Albert Clark this year because Richard's about to undergo an operation on his back.

So we haven't seen him over here bit of time, but he has been in Europe.

So, yeah, we do have quite a few crews.

The Everards are local family to me, that rally and have got a very good motoring business over here.

They go to Europe more than they come to the fat.

I haven't seen the Ferrars rallying in the UK for some time, but they're in Europe regularly, so we have a few.

But I would say that there's more Europeans coming over here now because of the Roger Albert Clark and I'm hoping that the BHRC and other historic championships Starts to see a bit of an influx of foreign characters and investment as well.

Because the people who come over here from Europe and do rallying are always characters.

They're great fun.

Well, I mean, the Dutch seem to like it, especially now.

I don't know whether it's had an effect on it.

Josh Verstam has decided to take up historic rallying.

I mean, has that proved a draw?

I think his historic rallyings are very recent thing, isn't it?

I was just.

The safari.

I think he's been doing the modern rallying in the Skoda and I think.

I don't know.

Josh is a tricky character in.

In the sport, isn't he?

With his.

His checkered history and I'm not sure he's the drawing himself.

I think the Verstappen name has gained a fair bit of credibility in the last few years, for obvious reasons.

Yeah.

But I think if Max were to do it, then.

Wow.

I think that would be.

And I wouldn't say never because he loves it.

He just loves driving cars.

So that would be the big one, I don't think.

Joss.

I mean, I've seen Joss on a couple of BRC events over here.

Yeah.

He's not a big draw in himself, I've got to be honest.

The cars are always immaculately turned out and obviously it's got the Verstappen Red Bull literally on it, which is always pretty cool.

But he.

He in himself is not it.

He's not the person.

I think Ocean Price, who won the Roger Robert Clark and went straight out to the.

The classic Safari.

I think he is a much bigger draw.

Yeah.

Than Josh Verstappen.

So I think we don't need to get too excited about the.

The megastars coming in when we've got plenty of superstars in sport already.

Now, given the fact you're covering all this and presenting, etc, are you finding that there is more demand on your time and skills to present even more of this?

In simple terms, yes, but I always find a way because I just love doing it.

So, yeah, there's lots of requirements.

I think it's the extra stuff.

It's not just the events.

It's, you know, as a result of presenting the events.

You then get asked to host awards, you get asked to host dinners and do after dinner speaking.

That's the stuff that then starts to add another layer of time.

And I've got three kids and a very patient wife, but life's pretty busy and especially with me going back to competing as well or Trying.

So like last year I must have done.

I think I did six after dinner speaking engagements at different motor clubs and, yeah, Rotary organizations.

Plus I hosted three awards dues as well.

I've got pretty much the same this winter and it's great.

I love doing it.

And some of them are.

I don't get a lot of chance to support charities in our sport, but I do when I can.

So, you know, Hairwood, I was supporting the Jaffa Fund and coming up I'm doing a couple of local motor club events where I'm saying to them, look, I'm not going to charge you because you're within traveling distance.

So you just either have top the coffers of, because, you know, money's hard to combine in local motor club terms at the minute, or, you know, donate to a charity.

So that's my little way of giving back as well, doing those sorts of things.

So, yes, things are getting busier and that's great.

And I'm having to say no to some things now because simply the diary space, which I hate, I hate saying no, I really hate saying no, but I'm having to.

I mean, I'm a member of six small choir clubs and somebody said, why are you a member of so many?

I said, well, the membership fee varies between 15 quid and 30 quid.

I said, and I'm a member, I said, because I like to think my 15 to 30 quid goes towards keeping the little clubs alive because I've seen so many small clubs vanish.

And you think if I give them a few quid each year it may help to keep them going.

Yeah, there is definitely an element of that and I'm very conscious with what we're doing.

I mean, my focus has always been and still remains club rallying, national rallying, speaking very loosely.

I don't really get that involved in international parts of the sport, professionally at least.

I haven't since the Wales Rally.

GB came as part of the WRC when I used to be part of the presenter lineup there.

And that's where my heart is as well.

So a lot of the stuff I've been doing, I've been hosting a series of events at the Motorist, which have included grassroots and we've been inviting local motor clubs to put on auto tests, to do beginner navigation positions, tabletop events, and that's been really popular and it's got some really good local motor clubs back engaged and got some younger members involved as well.

Yeah, and that's a real passion of mine.

I mean, one night With a motorist in the summer we, we offered basically a free auto test.

It was five pounds to enter the auto test, but a free auto test for anyone would sit in a car.

Yeah.

And so we had to get them signed up for an RS club and the free Motorsport UK license on the night.

And I think Motorsport uk, someone in Motorsport UK says we had the most single night sign up they'd had for either ever or certainly for a long time.

And they wonder what on earth had gone on that actually told most what UK we were doing it and was very disappointed that they didn't not sort of got involved throwing the way behind it and then had completely forgotten and wondered why they suddenly got loads of.

I think we signed up 30 odd people that night.

That for me is a, a massive motivation for getting involved at a lower level and making sure we are supporting motor clubs with what they're doing as well.

I mean I did a similar thing with the Knutsford and District in the summer and the number of people who arrived because they managed to get a free advert in the local newspaper and everything else and they put signage out and people who turned up and signed up and they did it because they'd just seen the sign for it and decided well we've nothing else better to do this afternoon.

It was a beautiful day and they thoroughly enjoyed themselves and they knew nothing about it and they left full of enthusiasm and wanting to have a go, even if it was nothing more than a little navigation run.

Yeah, no, I love that actually.

I've got a lot of friends in Knutsford Motor Club.

I'm very fond of Knutsford.

In fact, Phil Brummell, my co presenter on special stage is a member of Knutsford Motorcyc.

I did their after dinner speech a few years ago and presented their awards.

Norman Robertson at the time was the chairman of the btrda.

He was also involved, I think it was chairman of the Knutsford Motor Club and got me involved and I love that club.

They do a lot.

And York Motor Club, Delacey, Ilkley, Beverly, they're all running 12 cars.

Border Motor Club that I'm part of here in northern Lincolnshire, they're all running 12 cars, they're all running altered tests, they're running targas, they get involved ring stages on national stage events and I think people need to start going back to their local motor clubs.

That's what they need to do.

My 18 year old at the minute, he's done a little bit with me, he's co driven On a couple of events he's driven the car on the track days he wants to get into it, he's got his helmet sorted, his race suit, everything else but he wants it on a plate to a degree and I've said to him if you want to do it you need to get involved with your local motor club.

You can come with me to the club nights, you can start making some connections and that's how you'll get your co driver opportunities and that's how you'll start getting yourself into it.

He needs to read the Brian Culture book and that is typical Brian Culture's road and route into.

Into becoming one of the world's greatest rally drivers.

Started by joining a car club and going to a garage that was known for its sports cars, cleaning cars on the Saturday morning and going out rallying an Austin A35 van.

Fantastic.

I love stories like that.

The problem I've got is that that 18 year old don't like reading.

I gave him a book by.

It was just a book by.

I forgot who the book was by now but I've given him a book on running navigation.

I think he's done the first chapter.

So yeah that is an issue.

That's.

It's a barrier to entry.

Yeah it's that they prefer to be on their Xbox or Instagram on their phones but he's an example of someone who does want to get involved and I want to encourage that but just really keen we, we make sure there's opportunities are spoken about because you know you can get a license for free, you can go and do an auto test in your road car for five quid and you can have a blooming good night out at the same time.

Yeah.

Paul Woodfrid, once again it's been an absolute pleasure.

I look forward to seeing you yet again on YouTube.

In fact I have no bloody option but to see you on you.

Thank you Mark.

Keep better character and we, we'll drag a few more out with us but.

Once again Paul Woodford, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thanks very much indeed for your time.

Thanks Paul.