Leigh Ann: Hello, welcome back to the Accrescent Podcast. I'm your host Leigh Ann happy Monday everyone. I am so excited. I announced this sort of softly on Instagram this week that Wednesday, May 22nd is going to be the date for my first ever live online workshop. Many, many more details to come. I also did a poll on Instagram about the title that you guys are liking best, but this live workshop is going to be all about what are the foundations of integrative stress recovery, trauma recovery.

Leigh Ann: Looking at it from this Holistic integrative approach and teaching some of the things that I teach my clients. day, every single week when I'm working with them. So I'm super, super excited for this. I wanted to get this out there now so that you guys can mark your calendars. If you're interested Wednesday, May 22nd, I know it's going to be in the evening.

Leigh Ann: I'm thinking six p. m. PM PST time, but that is subject to change. Although it will definitely be in the evening that way after work, more people will be able to attend. So there's going to be more specific details about what's in the course, how long it's going to be, all the little nitty gritty things that are coming over the coming weeks.

Leigh Ann: But now that I've got the day, I wanted to share it with all of you as soon as possible so that you can mark your calendars. It's. If it's of interest to you, that way you can attend live if possible. So stay tuned for more to come. I I'm putting out more information on social media, on my email newsletter.

Leigh Ann: So if you don't follow on socials, I definitely recommend following there, but of course I'll always share updates and information here as well too. So with that coming to today's interview, I was so excited going into this and then even more buzzed after this conversation with Michael. He is the co founder of BIA, a really a revolutionary wearable eye mask to sleep with at night.

Leigh Ann: We get into all the nitty gritty of the immense intention that went into creating and designing this product. A little bit on Michael though, he has successfully grown multiple startups in the sleep space, including both supplements and neurofeedback clinics. He's now emerging his passion for neurotechnology and his experience in the sleep space to create a product that improves every aspect of the sleep experience.

Leigh Ann: I told him this in the interview. After I found his product, I was starting to get all these ads on Instagram for other sleep masks, some of them with technology involved, and I just was comparing the specs because I love to get into all those little details. And the BIA sleep mask, the BIA smart sleep mask is so far and above everything else that is out there.

Leigh Ann: I cannot wait when this product is finally released. Launched because it's I am definitely going to be one of the first people reaching out to buy this Michael was such a joy. He was so fun to get to chat to I know you guys are going to love this conversation So, please enjoy Michael Byrne. Michael, welcome to the Accrescent podcast, the Accrescent community I'm super ecstatic to have you on today and and dive into all things BIA, but welcome

Michael: Yeah.

Michael: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Leigh Ann: I found you guys originally on Instagram, which might be where a lot of people are coming across you. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting. There's a lot of different things going on here. And you know what the hilarious thing was is as soon as I found you guys and followed you, of course, I'm immediately getting like 10 ads for all the different sleep masks out there, which actually I was for the first time ever kind of glad about, because then I was looking at all of them and comparing them.

Leigh Ann: Um, and it just kind of reiterated, I think how special BIA is compared to what's out there and we're going to get into all that. But before we do a little bit of an introduction, you know, to who you are and then kind of what led to BIA and do you say BIA or get BIA?

Michael: We refer to it as BIA. Yeah. Typically.

Michael: Yeah. Get BIA is the web link, getbia. com. But yeah, it's BIA and BIO neuroscience or like. The B. I. sleep mask. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Okay. Perfect.

Michael: We'll do a quick life story for you. So I studied psychology in school. I've always very, uh, been very interested in the why, uh, behind things. You know, why do we walk the way we do?

Michael: Why do we communicate at all? You know, I just, that kind of led me down that path towards psychology, is why do we do anything? And when I was there and studying, uh, I found that kind of led me towards biopsychology, out of curiosity. You know, the brain was kind of being a major root behind a lot of the behavior.

Michael: And in that process, I was thinking I was going to go the PhD route, go clinical psychology. I loved, uh, like paranoid schizophrenia that fascinated me and really grabbed my attention. And I was really fortunate to get an internship with a group that worked with paranoid schizophrenia. So I very quickly learned studying and working in the field are two vastly different things.

Michael: Uh, uh, you know, working with paranoid schizophrenia was really just upsetting. You know, these people are just constantly living in pain. fear, they're heavily medicated. It just wasn't what I was anticipating, uh, as an experience. And I'm very glad I did that because I quickly just, you know what, I'm going to get out into the working world and find what I actually like, because this is what I thought I like studying versus working with.

Michael: So I ended up working at a neurofeedback clinic. So I was working largely with EEG sensors there, uh, measuring brain activity. And, you know, looking to adjust that with neurofeedback sessions, a wide range of issues, anxiety, depression, insomnia, concussions. We had, we had. Pretty much anyone coming through the door that was looking for something that they couldn't find elsewhere.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Well, I'm taking a deep breath. Cause I had my sixth concussion in October of last year. So I'm like, yeah, I need all the, all the neuro feedback I can get. So anyways, yes, I'm with you on that and how impactful it would

Michael: be. Oh, I'm going to go down that rabbit hole, but personally check out Health Tech Connects as well.

Michael: They're a different neurotech company.

Leigh Ann: Uh, they're also

Michael: based out of Vancouver, Canada, but fantastic people. They do great work. Um,

Leigh Ann: say the, say the second word again, health.

Michael: Yeah. Health tech connects, um, but like to connect, but with an X CT.

Leigh Ann: Have you heard of, um, Saraset?

Michael: No.

Leigh Ann: It's C E R S E T. This is one I know of, a type of neurofeedback too, that I've actually recommended to a lot of clients and they've had great results.

Leigh Ann: I'm sorry to derail you there.

Michael: Yeah, no worries, no worries. I'm always happy to support the neurotech community as a whole too. So yeah, yeah. So I had everyone coming through the door and while I was there, one question that we always asked was, how was your sleep? And a big reason why we did that is it became a bit more of an, a clearer, objective way to see how someone was doing.

Michael: Asking someone who has been suffering from clinical depression for five years, Hey, how you doing today? They're either going to go through a auto response of, yeah, I'm good. How are you? Or they're unhappy that you just asked them and they're having to delve into whereas how did you sleep was an experience that they could quantify.

Michael: They could kind of take a moment and pause and reflect on how they feel in that moment and give a bit more of a genuine answer. So that's where I started to get to exposure on the sleep side of things. It's also where I started to get to get an exposure on the business side of I like to joke that I studied psychology to learn I'll eventually become my father.

Michael: And my, my dad as a CEO was a CFO for most of his life. So started really liking the business side of things, working on the systems rather than directly ended up moving into operations and moved on from there to a sleep supplement company. So I was hired number two, uh, my now co founder at Bia, Andrew was hired number one.

Michael: So he handled everything on the front end. I handled everything on the back end of the business. And we were growing that side. And we were selling up to 500 bottles a day at that company. So a massive number of customers and exposure to sleep as a whole. And we got to kind of deep dive into that. And see the struggles that came with that as well.

Michael: Yeah, and what we noticed was with supplements, There was a fairly high turnover rate, you know, your body adapts to the chemicals that you're putting into it It stops producing it as much themselves And then you stop getting the benefits that you once were and also sleep is an incredibly complex problem So to isolate it to just not having enough melatonin usually isn't the full picture So what happens is your baseline improves, you know You start taking the sleep and you're at 10 which you thought was 50 You And you're now at 25, and now you're realizing your sleep's still not where you want it to be.

Michael: It's just better than what it was. So, yeah, so we worked together there for quite a while. Ended up moving on, but stayed in touch, stayed in contact. And we wanted to work together again. I wanted to go back into neurotech. Uh, his background was actually IBM, uh, a bit more on the software side of things. So we started doing a bit of a customer discovery.

Michael: Um, doing as much research as we could, researched a ton of neurotech companies, nearly a thousand that we looked through, surveyed thousands of people, and started looking at how do we actually build something that's going to help people in the most effective way. And it was kind of in front of our nose the whole time.

Michael: Like, you know, my wife doesn't sleep well either. So I had that big motivation of looking at sleep again. And it ended up being what we saw as the most effective way to help people right now improve their health was Building something that truly optimizes your sleep and not just gives you that time you boost and then stops working after a few months.

Leigh Ann: And kind of to that point I made at the beginning, comparing it to so many of the other things on the market, it's super, super, super advanced. And there's a couple of features I'm really excited to get into, but I also love that you make this point about the supplements because I think, so I'm more in the holistic.

Leigh Ann: Health world. So there's a different rhetoric there. I think a lot, a lot of people who will listen to this episode are kind of a little bit more well versed in like sleep hygiene and light blue light exposure and sunlight exposure. And, but I think in most of the conventional world, people who don't sleep well, get sent a supplement, maybe sometimes even a pharmaceutical.

Michael: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: And then it's kind of like, and they send you on your way.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's a lot more to it. I'm glad to hear the community is going to be a bit more versed on this. We can get deep down into the nitty gritty and the fun details. I'm not meaning to bash the supplement world at all. It, as I was saying, it did help people, a lot of people, and it made a difference.

Michael: It's just not completing the picture.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. It's just more multifaceted to your point than just that one isolated thing. So, yeah. Okay. So let's get into it. First of all, actually, I have a curious question, which is. From the supplement to sleep mask. What was that jump? Were there some other things you guys played with in between?

Leigh Ann: I don't even know what that would be, but yeah. When was the idea of, Oh, it's a sleep mask. Okay, let's dig into this.

Michael: Yeah, we looked at quite a few different things. We actually looked at like stick on pads for a little bit. I wanted to do neurotech. I wanted to get back into that brain, that root cause of why.

Michael: So we were, that was where we niched ourselves a little, uh, and innovate ourselves, but, uh, We did look at, yeah, stick on pads. We looked at headbands. Uh, we looked at something just as simple as like earbuds and we ended up at the sleep mask. And, uh, I can jump into that maybe in a little bit, like we'll introduce the product and the experience overall.

Michael: And then I can. I'd be happy to talk about why we ended up at that form factor over others.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: So you guys know what a coffee lover I am, but I have also these last few months been trying to be much more intentional about how much caffeine I'm consuming, the quality of the coffee that I'm drinking. And there are so many new products on the market that are combining coffee with Mushrooms, other beneficial substances that just add to the overall effectiveness, impact of the product.

Leigh Ann: And I am always, always on the lookout for new coffee products, which is why I'm so excited to introduce you guys to Everyday Dose. This is an Powdered coffee brand and you guys know that I have shared other brands like this in the past But this is the new favorite. This is top of the list I have been drinking this every morning for the last two months when I run out I am legitimately sad and trying to get more of it as much as possible I want to highlight a couple of the things about Everyday dose that make it stand out from some of the other products on the market First, they're combining coffee bean extract, organic coffee bean extract with organic mushrooms, nootropics, and collagen protein to give calmer energy, sharper focus, it also gives this added support to the gut, the brain, the immune system, and there's 80 percent less caffeine than other similar products, which is huge.

Leigh Ann: It's been a big, big thing for me, reducing my caffeine intake. Some of the things I love is The collagen, this is not a lot of brands are having collagen in their, in their coffee powder. They have L theanine. There is a whole list of the amino acids that are in this, in this coffee product, organic chaga, organic lion's mane, but more than all of this, or I guess the cherry on top is that this.

Leigh Ann: This to me literally tastes like coffee and there is coffee in it, but so many of the other pre packaged brands that I've had do not taste like coffee at all. Or it's, it's just like very, very subtle and it does not feel like a replacement. This to me is so delicious. I would drink this over a normal cup of coffee any day.

Leigh Ann: I add a little bit of coconut sugar and some, Organic cream and it's the perfect thing every single morning check out everyday dose down in the link below I hope you guys get to try it and I hope you love it as much as I do With the link below when you purchase your first bag of everyday dose coffee You will also get a free starter kit that comes with a number of different goodies as well as five free to go packets of everyday dose coffee

Leigh Ann: Yeah, well, I'll also let you lead the way, cause I kind of have a list here of the different features of the mask, but you might, I'm really, I'd love to share just what the features are, but also why are they there? What is the impact? Why did you, I'm assuming very intentionally choose to have this and this, and you know, what's some of the difference between them?

Leigh Ann: Like there's the neurofeedback and then there's the neural music and what's the difference there? Yes. Yeah. Take us to the beginning with that. Cause I I'll dive right in, but. Yeah. For, for most of the audience, who's never heard of BIA, what, what is this? Who are you guys?

Michael: Yeah. So, you know, what I'll do is I'll just kind of describe the experience that you'd have with the mask and then I'll, you know, hit some keywords for you and, and we can deep dive into those.

Michael: Okay. So, yeah, so it's a smart sleep mask. So what, what you would do before going to bed, turn it on, it will connect to your phone into the cloud, it'll update it. Then the Bluetooth actually shuts off. So there's no Bluetooth overnight. Okay. And you'll put on the mask. The mask is very intentionally designed.

Michael: It's 100 percent blackout. There's a lot we put into this. You know, like the eye cavity. We have a gap in the eye cavity. It's built more like ski goggles than it is other sleep masks. And that's actually to allow for eyelashes, as well as to distribute pressure and create a blackout mold around your eyes only.

Michael: And it allows for space elsewhere in the mask so that way heat can escape. And you don't get too warm. You don't get sweaty. You don't get irritation on the skin. It's very friendly for the skin. It's very makeup friendly. We worked with a materials engineer for the textile we chose, the phone we chose. So there's a lot of detail that went into that and the design of the mask itself as well.

Michael: Uh, so that way it keeps that shape size and that comfort, uh, without irritating the skin. Whereas with the mask, it's flat and it bends and folds. You're gonna get creases, you're gonna get pressure points. It's gonna be less comfortable. So you put on the mask, you get that comfort. Music will start to play.

Michael: That's the neural feedback that will start. So essentially what we're doing there, uh, is we have a suite of sensors in the mask, uh, including one called FNIRS, which is probably the most unique. And then we got like a temperature sensor, uh, IMU, so we can get movement and head positioning. And we got a microphone in there.

Michael: It says binary audio, uh, so we know like, There was like 130 decibel sound outside and you woke up, uh, you know, or a consistent decibel sound that, you know, went up and down. Okay, maybe you were snoring during that time frame. Because we're not connected to the cloud, we're not going to store eight hours of audio every single day.

Michael: So it's just binary. It's ones and zeros so we can get a decibel range on what's going on. And based on that data, What happens is on the device itself, it picks up that information and it gets a brain state. So you put on the mask, you're wide awake, your mind's racing about that meeting you at earlier today.

Michael: We'll play back audio that is going to encourage your brain to relax and get towards falling asleep. So if we see you're wide awake, we'll play back audio that mimics a meditative state. And we'll have encouragement and discouragement to that, and you know, we can deep dive into this in a little bit, but that will encourage you to relax.

Michael: And then once we see you're meditative, we'll encourage stage one sleep, and we'll do that throughout the night, so that way you fall asleep faster, you'll stay asleep, and in the morning we'll start to pull you up. And what we have there is also a sunrise, uh, smart alarm. So right there in the mask, and this is like, what I'm actually most excited about is, uh, yeah.

Michael: And we worked with optical engineers on this. It was very, very precisely tuned the exact wavelengths to mimic sunrise, right? In the mass to cue those hormone releases in the, in your body, get that cortisol going up and that melatonin going down. Uh to wake you up, you know, it's not going to be ready immediately afterwards But we're going to have an option to meditate right then in the morning as well So it'll be neurofeedback guided meditation So without moving a muscle you can get some affirmations You can get neurofeedback guided meditation and you get that 10 minutes of sunlight without moving a muscle Moving an inch in your bed, uh, your brain will just wake up and you get that 10 minutes of peace and setting your intentions for the day without moving a muscle.

Michael: Yeah,

Leigh Ann: this is so legit. Okay. One of the features I didn't know about, cause I knew about the sunlight and I couldn't wait to talk about this, but is the no Bluetooth. And this is huge. And my audience is going to eat this up because we're, we're very much like even me wearing these AirPods right now.

Leigh Ann: Rarely wear Bluetooth AirPods. I don't have wearables. Like I, I don't love it. I also get irritated when I have Bluetooth on me and that was going to be my only, only thing is like, ah, it stinks that your hat, you have Bluetooth all night long. But even with that, I was like, this product seems like it's worth it.

Leigh Ann: You know, kind of like that 80, roll. Like. 80 percent is more holistic. We can't get it perfect. So the fact that you guys have even reverse engineered that is amazing and huge, huge, huge, huge.

Michael: Yeah. And on the, in the morning when you take off the mask, it will connect again to send that night's data, you know, empty things off the memories and send it up into the cloud and then it'll pull back and you'll get your stats and things.

Michael: The app experience from there, there is an option if you wanted to have Bluetooth overnight and, or for a little while too, because a lot of people listen to audio books or podcasts to fall asleep. Um, so we've set it up. So, you know, it'd be like AirPods. You can stream your own audio and listen to it. And the one difference we have is an auto pause feature.

Michael: So if you're listening to your book. Big struggle is you fall asleep and you wake up seven chapters later to a spoiler, and then you're trying to come back and find where you were. We'll just pause it for you when you fall asleep and we can shut off Bluetooth right then as well.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. And I guess we didn't say this directly, although it's been kind of indirectly communicated.

Leigh Ann: There's, there's speakers in the, the mask that are going over your ears. So you can.

Michael: Technically, no, no. So they're not going over your ears. There are speakers. That is another design feature that I. Absolutely love. Uh, so we're using conduction drivers. So what we're doing is the mask has three layers.

Michael: There's an outer layer, there is the housing and the electronics. And then there's the inner layer of the mask. So the conduction drivers vibrate the inner layer of the foam that your skin is touching. So if you're not touching it, you don't hear a thing. You could be having a full blast right next to me, I won't hear a sound.

Michael: While you hear an actual surround sound experience, because it's rippling around that inner layer of the foam. Super soothing experience. Really, really calming. And the other benefit there is there's no hard parts over the ears. So all the electronics sit right here within that eye cavity there. So you won't feel a single thing.

Michael: You're not sleeping on hard parts over your ears. It's all right here.

Leigh Ann: Oh my gosh. I didn't think you could blow my mind anymore, but you just keep adding these fantastic features. Okay, that's so huge. That's like those, I actually have a pair of kind of like the bone conductor headphones.

Michael: Yeah. That go over.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. They, they hit like right here, like here, here we're hitting like closer to the top of the cheekbone, uh, where the reverberations will go towards the ear and create that audio.

Leigh Ann: Okay. Amazing. So cool. We're going to get to the light part, which is huge, but another distinction is it's a smart mask.

Leigh Ann: It's not just a sleep mask. It's a smart mask. And this is what I'm really excited to get into a bit more too, because it's not just, yeah, you put the mask on it's blackout. That's nice. There's speakers and you hit play on a preset.

Michael: Yes.

Leigh Ann: Meditation. It's to your point, sensors are able to detect the state you're in and then adjust what it's outputting.

Leigh Ann: To support that

Michael: exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this is also all contactless technology that we're using. IMU is just relative positioning. So it doesn't need any skin contact. Microphone doesn't require skin contact. And our two other sensors are temperature and it's called NIRS. So N I R S and that stands for near infrared N I.

Michael: NIR spectroscopy, so light graph, NIRS. And what we're doing is we're measuring brain activity. So we're using infrared light to more or less penetrate through the skin. It reflects off red blood cells and then comes back to receivers and that can tell us brain activity and how active your brain is. And the temperature sensor is also infrared, so it's completely contactless.

Michael: There's no hard parts touching your face, it's just very soft foam, you know, engineered foam that we're very particular with. So with the, yeah, yeah, it is, it is, you know, you get down in the weeds and you kind of forget about it. Yeah, it's, it's really fascinating. And yeah, so based off all that information, just in real time, we're feeding back.

Michael: Okay, here's where you're at, you're, you're, you're. 80 percent awake just for a simple argument's sake, here is 50 percent awake. Okay, you're at 70%. Let's continuously guide you down the steps there to falling asleep and relaxing and it adapts based on what's going on. So if you were in a meditative state and you go to like wide awake, we'll transition back to that meditative where it's not too far of a gap for your brain to learn and adapt and we'll go back to, okay, let's just get you to meditative.

Michael: Let's not try and get you to, you know, fall asleep this very second. Let's just get you back to that meditative state.

Leigh Ann: And that is happening all night long.

Michael: Is it, is

Leigh Ann: it sensing all night long?

Michael: Yes. Yeah. It's, it's sensing the whole night through. Throughout the night, what we tend to do is kind of let the brain do its thing.

Michael: Uh, our focus is to keep it asleep. Yes. Staying asleep the whole night through is a target, but we're not going to try and override the brain's natural needs. We don't know what you did all day. Your brain does and what you require for that night's sleep, your body's going to have a natural propensity towards that.

Michael: Uh, so we're just going to let it do its thing and we're going to play back. So let's say once you're falling asleep and you're in deep sleep, we'll play deep sleep audio. And if you're in stage two sleep, we'll just play stage two. It's just to try and keep the brain in the state that it is chosen, but we're not going to try and.

Michael: Get the brain to do something that it's not naturally doing.

Leigh Ann: Is it impactful for someone who maybe does struggle, though, with waking up a lot at night? That if they did wake up, it would sense that and then be able to help, you know, gently coax them into sleep again?

Michael: Yeah, and hopefully prevent that from happening as well.

Leigh Ann: Right. Because

Michael: as they start to go towards that wake up state, we'll be still encouraging it to stay in that sleep state.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Yeah. And let's talk about this a little bit more because even though I think there's a lot of obvious implications, why it's so much more impactful to have audio feedback that is attuned to your state versus just some binaural beats going on in the background.

Michael: Fantastic. Yeah. So the way binaural beats works, I'm, I love that. Use that example. Um, so we've, we've had a few people reach out about this specifically. So, you know, if you YouTube binaural beats, I'll pull a few like, Hey, here's a 10 Hertz binaural beats to sleep to sleep is quite a bit more dynamic than that, as well as your brain state.

Michael: So stage one sleep, it's not just. You know, exactly 10 Hertz, and that's the entirety of your brain activity. Uh, there's a spectrum of activity that's going on. And that's where the neural music comes in. So we have neural feedback and we have neural music. Neural feedback is like the coach. Uh, you know, it's, it's the part of guiding your brain towards the desired state.

Michael: So, I know, I guess a comparison would be like, if you're doing a lunge, having someone be able to adjust your form. In real time, if you start to tweak your knee out, they're pushing your knee back in, make sure you keep your form properly. That's kind of what the neurofeedback is doing of, Hey, this is how you need to go in the right direction.

Michael: This is how you do this properly. And then the neural music is music that mimics a brain state. Exactly. So it's that stage one sleep. It's mimicking what stage one sleep looks like across that whole dynamic, uh, wavelength, not just, you know, Delta, for example, but the whole spectrum of, of curing that we're able to collect, uh, it's mimicking that entire state to encourage that activity as well.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

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Leigh Ann: Yes. So just much, much more nuanced than, yeah, the binaural beats are kind of soothing. Also something incorrect me if I'm wrong, something I've heard too is because of how dynamic the brain is, Because once it's like heard a particular beat in repetition, it almost like the melatonin, it stops being as effective.

Michael: Yeah. Uh, the example I love to give on this is like, there's studies that have been done with like true sensory deprivation, uh, where everything, no light stimulation, no sounds. No sense of touch like true sensory deprivation. You'll hear your own organs working. It's like that quiet. The average person starts to hallucinate within 30 minutes.

Michael: And wow, that's because the way the brain works is it needs stimulation to survive that that's what it does. Um, it's, it's a microcosm of the world of survival of the fittest. You know, the neurons that fire stay alive, the ones that don't die off. So it's constantly hungry, trying to find a reason to fire.

Michael: And when you provide a stimulation to it, your brain is going to seek that stimulation. It's going to move towards that. That's how it's going to survive. So audio and audio itself is just neural firing, right? You know, if you go through the science of it, there's a few different bones that move and there's neurons that are, you know, vibrating based off of the movement that simulate and send that information to your brain that we perceive as audio, like right now, this, my voice, the way the tone goes and how it moves those neurons within that liquid within your ear is how you hear.

Michael: Okay. We're just vibrating that directly with our conduction drivers and we're vibrating it in a pattern that will mimic that stage one sleep. And because your brain is going to be seeking that simulation, that's how we're able to guide it to that direction. And as you're saying, it's going to get bored of something over and over and over again.

Michael: So we have lengthy audio tracks that have that dynamic, dynamic aspect to it. And that will adapt as your brain changes throughout the day.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Okay. Now let's talk about this sunlight thing. Cause this is, this has been my biggest. Peeve so far, other than the Bluetooth, which I was not loving of the sleep mask, and I have just the most basic, you know, foam sleep mask that I have actually, I haven't used in so long.

Leigh Ann: I now kind of have the shades that block out my room completely to get that effect, but what I don't, and then I have a sunrise alarm clock, but what I don't love about the sleep mask is yes. We're not getting any of that sun stimulation. Shit. And so it actually, I almost think, yes, maybe it can help you sleep better, but then the waking up part might be really hard or jarring.

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It is a sudden switch rather than that progressive cross 15, 30 minutes of the sunlight rising through the sunsets or through the sunrise rather. Yeah, exactly. Uh, you said it all.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, and that's part of why we

Michael: have it.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, yeah. So I know you talked about it a little bit, but cover it again.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. So we have multiple LEDs and we have a diffusion layer on the inside of the mask so the light reflects onto this diffusion so it more evenly spreads. And what we'll do is, you know, starting about 30 minutes before, that's how you set your alarm for 7am, you know, around 630 ish, we'll start to have those lights go in that will mimic as if you were lying down outside and the sun was to start rising.

Michael: Over the horizon, we're mimicking that within the mask itself. So, and we're mimicking that in terms of brightness, in terms of the light spectrum, you know, the, the colors, uh, the various wavelengths that your brain will receive. So we mimic that throughout those stages. I, I think the big difference for us there is it's based on your schedule.

Michael: So for people that have to do shift work. You know, the nurses that work 7 p. m. to 7 a. m. and then try to go to sleep 9 a. m. It's complete opposite to what's happening outside. Because we're able to block out that environment, we're able to kind of override that system. And then sunrise when the sun's actually setting and it adapts to your schedule.

Leigh Ann: Well, and just likewise, a lot of people do wake up before the sun's up and Being able to give the brain that simulation it needs to start to produce the hormones, the enzymes, all the things that wake us up, help us feel alert, happy, excited for the day to come.

Michael: Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You got it.

Leigh Ann: And then you also said, so there's also more of that neurofeedback and neural music to wake us up.

Michael: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. The goal there is, you know, same thing. Your alarm set at 7am around 6am, we're going to encourage your brain to get towards, you know, that end one stage of sleep, uh, and then towards meditative upon the actual awakening. So you're not getting that jarring alarm beeping at you. It's going to be a lot more of a peaceful experience.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, I don't know what you guys haven't thought through with it.

Michael: I'm sure there is. As soon as we get it into people's hands, I'm sure, you know, that's why we have the beta test because we're confident there's things that we've missed.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Have you, I'm sure you've tried it.

Michael: We've done some varying alpha tests yet.

Michael: It's always scary because you've only got a handful of prototypes type thing. And of course they break and then you do the next one and you break those too. But yeah, uh, the, the experience is absolutely incredible. Like I cannot, I'm so excited to get it into people's hands and just watch the reviews pour in on that sunrise experience and the sounds we worked with musicians specifically to just nail that, like the first sound you hear to be just.

Michael: Completely soothing. I'm excited to watch people experience that.

Leigh Ann: I know. I was going to say like, how excited are you for this to go, you know, live and mass?

Michael: It's been three and a half years that we've been working on this. So very, very excited to the real feedback and get it out into people's hands.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: To be so close to that launch stage. And to your point, I mean, being a business owner myself, there will always be the next thing, the next improvement, the next stage. So we're not holding our breath for like a finality there, but yeah. To have been in kind of R& D and just such a big building phase for so long.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Super exciting to be getting to the end of that road, at least.

Michael: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's a much clearer line in the sand compared to. V2 of this, I will build a few years after that. It's very different than, you know, going zero to one type thing.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Yeah. I know it's so far in the future, but yeah.

Leigh Ann: What are some of the already things that you're dreaming up of taking? It sounded like you said, like a meditation morning app or something.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It would be like, wake up and you know, you got your alarm set at 7am. I would, You know, just for argument's sake, 7 a. m. goes off, I would not, right away, it would go into guided neurofeedback meditation to get me into that meditated state.

Michael: I'm going to get the encouragement, discouragement, and a lot of affirmations playing at that time as well. So I can start the day on a positive note instead of trying to, you know, resist the urge of seeing the The email list that's sitting on my phone. I can wake up and set the mood that I want to have to start the day.

Michael: Another feature I'm really excited about too, is actually partner pairing that we have on the roadmap. Yeah. So, so you can see how, you know, like sleep divorce, quote unquote, uh, is a very popular term right now with people sleeping separately from their partners because of how it impacts one another.

Michael: We're going to be able to quantify that if you both have a mask. We'll be able to show you how you actually influence each other, as well as how to improve sharing a bed, uh, and, and living with that.

Leigh Ann: Oh my gosh, that's, that's huge. That's super exciting. Have you taken this to any, I know it's, again, you're still even in beta, so probably not, but I've been thinking of like Dave Asprey's biohacking conference.

Michael: Yeah, we were in talks with them. We want to make sure we have a prototype to the extent that we'll be happy with having it at that stage. So we're going to miss it this year, unfortunately. We have their contact info. It's very high up on the list to get there.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. That'll be huge. It's gonna blow up. I am very nitpicky with details and specifics and Like I said, I've seen so many sleep masks come up that might even kind of on the outside Have a similar look or whatever, but when you really get into the nitty gritty of all the different specs It's so far and above everything that's out there.

Michael: I Appreciate that Yeah, the compliments. I give a lot of kudos and respect to everyone else that's making similar products. Making the mask is incredibly difficult. It seems easy. But some fabric and foam together, it's, it is much more complicated than that. So,

Leigh Ann: yeah. Especially just when you want to make something that is hitting all these different areas.

Leigh Ann: It's so funny. Cause I daydream about, this is where my mind goes. I daydream one day about like having my own mental health, like holistic mental health clinic,

Michael: but

Leigh Ann: like to the nitty gritty point of the whole building is grounded in the earth. And there's, Sunlight that can come in and all the lights are full spectrum light bulbs.

Leigh Ann: Like this is how specific my brain gets. But even as I'm doing that, I'm like, Holy shit. The expense of that, that is insane to fund and create something like that where every single detail from the water, the air quality, all everything. So with that said, I get it. It could be so much easier and cheaper to.

Leigh Ann: Make something that sort of checks the big boxes, but to check these really, really specific nuanced boxes takes a ton of time and intention.

Michael: Yeah. And what you're envisioning there too, that those little details to me are how you make the difference. It's how you make something that grows and builds with people.

Michael: And you know, all the features that we have, there's a ton more. We can, we have planned as well down the road, I think we got a list of about 55 different features that are. In the parking lot to build those are the things that also keep the excitement going and it gives you that room to grow and To treat a product like it's or in your case a clinic as a never finished project changes your perspective on how to approach it and getting the product out becomes just a milestone rather than the end goal.

Michael: And you're just looking to improve, improve, improve. And yeah, that's been our philosophy this whole way through is a product is never finished and we're wanting to keep building and building and building.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. And then also how to know when to launch. Cause at some point we do have to launch even when it's not finished.

Leigh Ann: And to your point, like there's a baseline we absolutely have to meet just for our own, you know, peace and integrity, but then how can we keep making this the next best thing?

Michael: Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. But

Michael: there's something I think we're a little bit fortunate on is, you know, compared to like Apple watches and most wrist wearables, we have about eight times the space and of electronics.

Michael: So we have way more room, you know, like being able to go without Bluetooth is because we have. That whole space in front of your eyes. Whereas if all we had was that space on your wrist, you don't have enough space to store the information you need. You need to connect throughout the night to some of the data you're collecting.

Michael: Uh, we don't have to deal with that problem.

Leigh Ann: I just was thinking about, is it going to be something that could be used even during the day? Like I'm even thinking, I just was like, Oh, how cool would it be to do like a super optimized. Midday meditation to boost my energy between work or something

Michael: Yeah, yeah hundred percent.

Michael: Yeah, there will be options for that There is on the roadmap like a focus mode set up where I want to have it for like before jumping on a podcast be able to spend five ten minutes and we actually do as as part of the wake up sequence have it go to Uh, like a focus mode, like go from guide you towards stage one, towards meditative and then like a focused mindset for when you're waking up.

Michael: So that way again, you're waking up with energy rather than dragging yourself out of bed. So we already have the technical know how and set up that it would just be creating a full new mode. It takes time to do that and we've focused on sleep, but yeah, that's a hundred percent in the plans. We have a nap mode that will be released fairly quickly.

Michael: So there'll be a few different ways. It won't need to be exclusively. An overnight mask.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, so I don't know how much, you know, about what I do. I have the podcast, but I also have a whole wellness, you know, emotional wellness practice. And first of all, I love how much we're talking about vibrations and, and sound, because what we do, what I do in my practice is.

Leigh Ann: Evox therapy where we're measuring the tones in their voice. And then I'm pairing that with. Somatic subconscious work, all this stuff, but yeah, I'm already like, Ooh, how cool would it be if there were all these special programs for grief, anger,

Michael: shame.

Leigh Ann: And then it's like, I, you know, not only is it supporting their sleep, but I can tell my clients, yeah, do you know, let's for the next week, do the grief program.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. Each day or something.

Michael: Yeah. That'd be incredible. And,

Leigh Ann: and like, I don't know if they've mapped out, I don't know if they've mapped out the brain states when I'm in grief. So the neurofeedback is directly there, but then maybe also meditate. I don't know. Anyways, that.

Michael: That would be really cool. Yeah. And then it becomes like

Leigh Ann: a practitioner tool too, not just a,

Michael: yeah.

Leigh Ann: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That'd be very cool. We can talk more about that later. That sounds fun. If that ever

Leigh Ann: gets on the table, reach back out because I will be very interested, uh, in sharing what I, what I need as a practitioner from that end. Yeah.

Michael: It'll go in the parking lot for sure. I'll follow up. Well,

Leigh Ann: I love it.

Leigh Ann: Well, yeah. And just since we have a little bit of time left, tell me a little bit about, you know, so much of, first of all, my, the Accrescent, the name of the podcast, the name of my brand company, Accrescent means ever growing, continual growth. And also I'm so much about the emotional stuff, the vulnerability, the blocks that we're overcoming.

Leigh Ann: So three years, we've been, you've been on this journey. Yeah. Has it been a walk in the park or what have been some of those moments? Did you even the thought of like taking this on year one, year zero, were there, you know, blocks subconscious or conscious that you had to overcome even to start this journey?

Michael: I think for others that are going to, you know, if they were listening and looking at starting their own, I think something that is unique to hardware is that it is, you know, It's incredibly expensive and very time consuming. Working on a service or software, you can adapt when you get that feedback in that moment.

Michael: For the mask, for example, you know, the first sample we got, it was not comfortable at all. The foam was way too dense. Well, it was another three and a half months before we got our next sample. So That was tough. There's, there's like very clear lines where now it's, we, we actually joke about it on the team, there's down weeks and there's up weeks and you kind of just laugh it off because you're just on this rollercoaster and you, when you start it, you're definitely got your hands up and you're screaming and you're crying as you go up and down.

Michael: And now you're like, trying not to take a nap as you go up and down, because it's just become second nature. But yeah, you, you kind of get used to the ups and downs. I think, you know, another major factor to consider is, you know, if you have a partner getting their full buy in and understanding that it's not a buy in once, it's a buy in every single day, every single week.

Michael: You need to communicate. It's something I'm still working on, you know, making sure my wife is fully aware of what's happening, that she's fully bought in, because it impacts her, uh, a lot. It's not as, you know It's a simple, Hey, I'm going to put some money into this and this is my job now. And you continue life as normal.

Michael: It's a very hard line in the sand. That's an irreversible decision that will change things. So getting that buy in regularly would be another major piece.

Leigh Ann: Yeah, when you started so much of what I look at is the beliefs, the limiting beliefs, was there any blocks or beliefs around like, Oh no, I, I couldn't create this life changing product or that's too big or that's too something out there that you had to overcome or, and maybe it's because you were having jobs in this realm, it actually did feel very achievable.

Michael: So, I had no idea how to do the engineering, and we did bring on people to help with that, which, which, there was no way we could have got it done without them. I knew it was conceptually possible, you know, whether it was me to do it, I wasn't sure, but I was focused on getting it done and finding a way to do it.

Michael: For me to fit into that and through throughout the journey that was to completely change my role I do it and you know, you know if we needed to bring in a different CEO to get it moving whatever But this is my focus. I'm a very mission driven person. You know, the life model I follow is My life is not mine to live and what I mean by that is I get The most energy, the most drive, where I find passion in life is when I'm helping other people.

Michael: So for me, this was where I found the most effective way to do that. And if, you know, whatever my role ends up being in this journey is what it will be, and I'm just going to push as hard as I can work as hard as I can to get it there and wherever I end up is wherever I'm going to end up. But for me, the number one important factor was getting this thing built.

Michael: Yeah, I guess like I didn't really have any debilitating levels of self doubt. There were certainly moments of like, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. I need to find someone to take over either. Those, those came and went on a handful of different occasions, but what I ended up doing throughout those was just focusing on getting the mission done.

Michael: This is what I'm trying to do. This is what needs to get done.

Leigh Ann: I love that. This has been awesome. Thank you so much.

Michael: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: I'm ecstatic for you guys. I feel like I'm, I'm like a fan cheering you on. I hope, I hope the beta goes really well. I hope the launch goes really well. I'll be one of the first people trying to get that product, testing it and sharing it.

Leigh Ann: But yeah, also just, I don't, any way I can help. I'm super, super happy to help.

Michael: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This, this was fantastic. It was a great host. You're great at hosting and super smooth and dynamic. I really appreciated it. And yeah, honestly, let's talk further about, uh, some of the ideas you were brainstorming there.

Michael: I think that'd be really cool to create it a bit more personalized to emotional states.

Leigh Ann: Yeah. I'm potentially starting a PhD program in depth psychology in September, and it's all the study of the unconscious.

Michael: And

Leigh Ann: so getting much, much more into this and yeah, I, I just have a practice now. I work with people one on one, I do the podcast, but yeah, the dream is many, many things, but to on some level build out.

Leigh Ann: A huge, like holistic, integrative, mental, emotional healing center. That's unlike anything that's out there. So, so anyways, yes, I'm sure there's a lot of crossover, very, very excited for you guys and, and where it's going to lead and, and excited for myself that there's a product coming that I'm very, very excited

Michael: about.

Michael: Thanks again. Again, a bit of an aside, but have you read the book? Is it okay if I just go grab it?

Leigh Ann: Oh no, I haven't. The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of bicameral Jesus. That's a title,

Michael: So almost 50 years old now It's yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. It changed the way I viewed consciousness in general Uh

Leigh Ann: huh

Michael: Again, neuroscience is way off, but I love the thoughts and ideas behind it. And it's actually, uh, you know, the, the movie or the shows Westworld, the development of consciousness in that show is based off of this book in this theory.

Leigh Ann: So,

Michael: so you might, you might like it. It's quick. Yeah.

Leigh Ann: Oh, thank you. I love that. I've always got a stack of books. I'm working. Yeah. So we'll, we'll stay connected. This was so fun.