Implementing a self-managing organisation requires a shift in mindset and a commitment to creating a positive work environment. This involves giving employees trust, freedom and responsibility, as well as promoting health and wellbeing. In this episode, Henry and Maureen speak to Luke Kyte, a senior leader whose company made this transition.

Reddico is a self-managing SEO agency that implemented unlimited holiday, formed a salary panel, and measured success through metrics like the Net Promoter Score. All in place of things like pingpong tables and nights out that look great on social media, but don’t improve employee happiness or promote wellbeing.

Luke's three tips for creating a happy workplace

• Start with trust, building the company for the vast majority of people who want to do a great job and want ownership.
• Treat perks and benefits as the cherry on top, and focus on changing the organizational structure.
• Include people in decision-making and strategy across the business, particularly when going through a process of change.

Links

• Connect with Luke via LinkedIn
• Net Promoter

Welcome to another Happy Manifesto podcast.

I'm Henry Stewart.

and I'm Maureen Egbe, and I'm excited to be here again.

what have we got?

Henry?

What we've got, we've got Luke Kyte who runs Redico, one of the UK's few self-managing organizations.

Fantastic.

I mean, that's a topic that people are really trying to get their heads around, so this is gonna be really good.

it is, isn't it?

And tell me, Maureen, what are you joyful about?

So one of the things I'm really joyful about is I love the outdoors.

You know, I like doing lots of things outside, going out.

Um, I love all different kinds of weather set for thunderstorms.

And one of the places I love to go to,

You don't like

well, I don't mind watching it from within inside.

But not being out in him.

The and, and the reason I say this is because I have an allotment and I do, I do.

I surprise you every time, Henry.

do.

You do indeed.

So I do, I have no allotment and I haven't been there for quite a while and I managed to get down there, um, at the weekends.

And, um, I love it.

It's a moment to be out of the city, you know, I feel like I'm in the countryside and, um, just working, working the lands and being with nature.

So what's giving you joy?

Well, mine is again, one outside work.

I went for a hundred mile cycle, uh, uh, last, last Sunday.

Uh, you know, I love cycling, don't

I know about a hundred miles, Henry.

Hundred miles and 6,000 feet.

It was glorious, absolutely glorious.

it's in preparation because I'm going to do five days in the Pyrenees, three mountains a day in July with the, with the H route.

So I've got to be in good training for that.

Oh, that's exciting.

So tell me, how long does it take you to cycle a hundred miles

Um, it took me six hours and 10.

continuously?

No, it can't be

Well, it was six hours 30 with the breaks.

Okay, brilliant.

Oh wow.

Um, I need to get faster though.

I need to get faster.

So what are you waiting for?

Oh, um, five and a half.

Alright, well keep us updated how you are going.

I'm excited to find out.

Okay.

And so tell me what makes you happy at, uh,

So a Tip for creating a happy workplace.

So a tip that I would love to share is around, again, around involving people in decision making.

And the reason this came to my mind is that we have a happy day coming up soon.

And this is a o opportunity where we all come together and we discuss major decisions that are happening, major things are happening, and it is about sharing ideas.

And that's the best thing that you can basically do.

Make sure that everybody's involved, that they know what's going on, and that they're a part of the decision making process.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

My tip, well, I just did a, a, a blog on, on LinkedIn about how you should have two tracks of promotion.

One track for people who, uh, who manage people or, or, or, or coach people, and one track for people in their core jobs.

I mean, it was, um, based around, uh, a client that said that she joined her, her workplace and her manager said to her, I'm not very good with people.

I probably won't remember your name.

Um, I'd much rather be sitting in the corner writing reports.

Now, of course, what should that person be doing?

They should never be managing people.

What they should be doing is writing reports and if they're good at it, being paid a lot, a lot for it.

Um, and that's what we do at Happy.

We have one track of people who, um, who coach people, um, and one track who are good at their core job.

And I, I'm not in the people that coach people.

Okay.

And I coach people.

You coach people.

I do.

I like talking rather than writing.

Now you like listening.

I do, of course I do.

So today I'm delighted to include Luke Kyte, who is involved in Reddico, one of the UK's, only one of the few anyway, one of the few UK's self-managing organizations.

Well, hi Henry, and thank you very much for having me today.

It's a pleasure to be here, to talk to you a little bit about Reddico and what we do and what we get up to.

So, Luke, tell us, what does Reddico do?

Um, so in terms of us as a business, we're a digital marketing company, so we specialize in SEO, which stands for search engine optimization.

And so in layman's terms, it's very much helping companies get top of Google for their specific search terms.

Okay, and so tell us about becoming a self-managing organization.

When did that start and how did you go about it?

Yeah, so this is quite a long journey.

I suppose it started back in so end of 2017, start of 2018.

And I suppose if I take you back to the very beginnings of Reddico back in 2012, we'd always tried to create a, a fun place to work.

So I joined the company in 2014, just a couple of years after the company was started and for us it was all about trying to create a fun place and let people, to get people to enjoy coming into the office.

And that meant table tennis tables or ping pong tables or nights out and events and activities and all that type of thing.

Everything we tried to do to create a happy, fun place to work.

And we got to 20 17, 20 18 and started to do the, the sort of employer Net Promoter Score, the employee Net Promoter Score.

And when we were getting the scores through, we realized actually that score wasn't as high as we expected it to be.

And had to kind of seek answers and solutions about why that was the case.

And ultimately realized that despite all the money we were spending on the team, despite everything we were trying to do, it wasn't ticking all the boxes in terms of engagement and giving people freedom and trust and responsibility to go and do the job their way and to really own their career and own their progression and, and essentially what they're doing day to day.

So we kind of look to how can we adapt the business?

What can we do going forward?

And to do this, we kind of sought expert advice from outside of Reddico outside digital marketing by reading different books, speaking to different experts on the subject.

One of those books was the Happy Manifesto.

Um, so that's what I'd get that in where I can do.

Absolutely.

Uh, just, uh, understanding sort of the, the, the different ways that we could approach business and what we could do differently.

And this all led to us creating our own manifesto, our own kind of way of working that would be different.

And looking at, okay, well how can we give people more job ownership?

How can we be completely transparent as a business?

How.

Change the management structure of the business to kind of move away from sort of clear line management to a place where people own what they do on a daily basis and they're in complete control of, of how they work and without that layer of approval, how can we move to a place where, essentially teams are coming together and, and we're building these really powerful departments and teams of people rather than a, a powerful boss or a powerful manager who holds all of the sort of decision making, all of the sort of strategic insights towards the department, how can we kind of get everyone involved in doing that going forward?

And that's where this might kind of manifesto started back in 2018, was really just these ideas and these different bits of inspiration that we pulled all over the place to try to bring together, to form what we thought would be a better, more powerful, more unified company.

And so that's where it kind of started.

And then since then, it's involved quite significantly.

And where was it that you decided to stop having managers?

Yeah, so, we never really talked about at the, at the time when we started this, we never talked about self-management or self-organization as a word.

It was something that just happened to come along later down the line.

But it was in the first kind of iteration of the manifesto in 2018 where this idea of splitting the role of a manager in two kind of came into it.

And I know obviously that's mentioned in the Happy Manifesto where you've got the two roles of a manager where role A is around strategy and the the future decision making and planning out what a department might look like in the future, and in role B, a very different set of skills around motivation and support and encouraging and empowering other people within the team.

And so very early on we were very much keen on, I suppose following that same sort of pattern whereby we still needed people in the company that could future plan and strategize kind of what a department might look like in 12 months, 24 months, five years down the line.

But ultimately those people didn't need to have people responsibilities.

So we wanted to completely kind of separate those and move away from that and bring in coaches into the business who could actually, kind of, I suppose you choose your own coach and with that then you choose the person that can motivate and, and it is best there to kind of support you and, and, and mirror you and, and give you a good time to reflect on, on what you are doing well and what you could work on even more.

That's crucial.

cuz the pe, most people who become managers do it because they're great at their core jobs, don't they?

And they're not necessarily good at, good at managing people.

So you've managed to, to split that.

That's brilliant.

Yeah.

So that was, that was it.

So that a lot of that inspiration was from, from the Happy Manifesto in terms of the, the, the ideas and the values behind that.

And it was one of the very earliest things that we did as part of that.

I mean, at the time there were lots of questions and unknowns about what that might look like.

Obviously when you move away from managers, you start having those questions, Okay, well, who does annual appraisals?

Or who sets the salary?

Or who's in charge of promotions?

So ultimately we had to come up with our own ideas and our own vision of what that might look like and how we would go about that in the future.

But there are all fun challenges to address because ultimately we were trying to almost create these different ideas or learn different ways of doing things.

Because a lot of it is just mindset as well.

Like we, we, we kind of grow into the business world and the work world with this idea of having manager and, and that person's got a manager and so on and so on and so on.

So actually just to try and create a vision or a future.

That doesn't exist.

And you can kind of take that and come up with your own solutions and own ideas about how could business actually look that's different to that, what could we do differently?

Um, so that's exciting.

As well as, as well as challenging.

So who does do the performance appraisals?

Well, so we actually ended up being moving it to the coaches.

So again, I feel like still, still a lot Happy's ideas

. Henry: That's fine.

That's fine.

was create like a, like a six monthly check-in with a coach and try and create a more powerful situation where people enjoyed having those meetings.

And I remember sitting on a meeting somewhere, I can't remember it was now.

And someone said that often when it comes to annual appraisals, you've got someone going into that meeting thinking, well, how much am I gonna be able to ask for what salary do I want?

And you've got the manager trying to manage the budget.

And so ultimately both parties are thinking about the money and neither party is thinking about actual performance and, and sort of the future and growth of that person and where that, where that person could go next.

So really we wanted to kind of separate those two completely.

Remove this idea of annual appraisals being tied to money and make it a really positive environment where we talk about success and aspirations and where that person wants to go and, and how are they gonna sort of really take their career sort of forward in over the next sort of six or 12 months and what that looks like to get people a bit more excited about what the future holds for them.

That sounds very different to a normal performance appraisal, doesn't it?

Yes it does.

I mean, typically I think you kind of go in there and you get told what hasn't gone so well or what you need to improve or um, you sort of see a load of numbers on a spreadsheet, whatever that might look like.

So, yeah, it's very different, but hopefully a lot more sort of positive and empowering for people as well.

Absolutely.

And the sa you, you, you also mentioned who, who chooses the salary?

So who does choose the salary at, at Reddico?

Yeah, so again, another, another tricky one.

So we, we ended up moving to a salary panel.

So we got the team to vote for who they thought should be part of a salary panel.

They elected four people to do that, and then every six months, people in the team then apply for a salary increase.

The panel then can review the applications.

We've got a number of different criteria that gets looked at.

So we have marketplace research, which takes place every year to give a, a benchmark of where a particular role is in the industry.

We've got sort of a, we look at inflation as well across the board, and we do sort of separate inflation increases.

People have got their own training matrix that's really clear where they need to progress and what they can work on going forward.

So if you join the company in a, in a junior role, there's a clear.

Sort of, sort of future in terms of how can you then move into a senior role in that particular sort of profession.

And again, they can work on that in a, in kind of that self-managed way and build on their skills and progress in their role at their own pace, in their own time.

But they can use that to reflect as part of that salary application as well.

So that salary panel is then responsible for sort of making adjustments across the board.

At, at Happy, we have a salary panel as well, and what tends to happen is the people that get elected tend to be the leaders of the organization because they have the, because people expect them to have the, the overall picture.

Is that the same at Reddico or do you get other people involved?

Yeah, so funny enough, it did work out in a very similar way.

So when we did sort of the, the election ended up being the four people who probably were four of the most senior people.

So you've got like the managing director, the operations director, um, sort of a person that's in charge of finance, finance director, and then myself as well.

So it kind of felt, I think people just picked the four, they felt actually, It made the most sense being on that panel.

Yeah.

what's important?

. is that they are, that it is an election that people do, you know.

So, if for instance I wasn't well regarded, I wouldn't be chosen.

Yeah.

And the other thing you have is unlimited holiday.

Yes.

So again, that was one of the I suppose one section of the first iteration of a manifesto.

So one whole part of it was this idea of work-life balance and giving people the trust and freedom to be able to go and work.

In a way that's right for them.

And so that kind of formed, there were sort of three main areas for that.

The first one being that we'll give people the complete flexibility in terms of, and this was before Covid as well, so this is when it was still even more radical than it is now.

I know obviously Covid has made things a little bit more kind of mainstream now in terms of flexibility.

But when we introduced this, it was very much a case of you can work where you want to, so there's no requirement to come into the office.

You could choose the hours you work.

So it was, again, not a case of you do 9 to 5 or 10 till 6 or 8 till 4 but actually whatever hours you want to work during the day or the week, you've got that flexibility to be able to choose that.

And there's no approval process for that because we've, without the line management in place, there's no no approval process at tool for people to, to have that, that box of tick.

So there was that side of things.

We had the unlimited holiday.

So given people.

The chance to book holiday as and when they want to without a cap in place.

And then we sort of pay people for every sick day as well, rather than having a cap of one, two, or three days, et cetera, that the business might have.

And the holiday is an interesting one because when you are creating this initial manifesto and you're thinking through, okay, well what's gonna work and what's not gonna work, and Unlimit one of those.

One of those ones where there's so many questions that come into it.

It's like, what if everyone takes the same day off?

Or what if someone doesn't turn up for a month?

Like, what does that look like?

But part of this policy and part of what we did and the rollout was, okay, well it's complete flexibility and complete trust and responsibility in you to manage this.

But at the same time, there's a commitment from you to have a positive impact on your job, your team, your clients, sort of Reddico in general.

And so obviously if someone doesn't turn up for a month, that's not necessarily having a positive impact on, on the team or their role or their clients or whoever it is they're working with on a daily basis.

That was kinda the used for that.

And again, I hear a lot of people saying, well, it's a bit of a PR stunt.

People don't really take it or they're afraid to take it or they, they feel they're gonna be judged if they take too much holiday.

But again, the challenge here, I think that a lot of companies have is that they often introduce it as a bit of a PR stunt that they can kind of put on job descriptions or sell on social media, rather than actually with the positive intentions of health and wellbeing and driving improvements in those areas.

And I think by having unlimited holiday as a standalone policy, It won't work because it just looks like a bit of a shiny thing to have and to shout about.

Whereas actually when we implemented it, it was part of a much wider strategy to drive health and wellbeing improvements across the board, which means that actually people see that and then they do see the benefits of taking it.

And as such, we've seen an increase in holiday year on year, and people not abusing the system as well.

So I think in general, the average is around, including bank holidays.

It's around sort of the 30.

Days a year type mark.

So it's a lot more than kind of the average person would take in a normal company, which is good to see.

So it shows it's having the, the right benefits and it's been used in the right ways.

And do some people take an awful lot of holiday?

It va it varies across the board.

Um, like you get some people that go into the forties some people in, in sort of the mid to late twenties.

It really, it really depends across across the team and who's doing it.

I.

I remember the very first year that we introduced it, I just had a lot of stuff on that I needed to take holiday for.

So it was a case of I was having a wedding and then I'd have a honeymoon and there was other sort of commitments I had to make.

So again, if I had 20 days holiday to take throughout the year, I would've been struggling to be able to, to keep all those commitments.

So for me, that was a really busy first year, but then the year later actually, I might not have much on, and maybe I don't need to take as much holiday as someone else might in the team.

So I think at different stages of life, people need to take different amounts of holiday depending on what's going on at work, what's going on at home, what they're, we're trying to, or hoping to do in sort of their personal and professional life.

So it really does vary.

But luckily we've not had an issue where there's been red flags on someone.

But the, the other thing is that places like Netflix where they're taking a limited holiday, often it means you take less holiday.

Yes.

And then that's the thing, and I think again, it all comes down to this idea of how are people selling that as, as a, as a, an unlimit holiday.

Are they kind of implementing it with the right, with the right ideas and the right ways of saying, look, this is all for health and wellbeing and it's part of this bigger strategy and this bigger piece of trying to promote health and wellbeing and this trust and this freedom, this flexibility in the way that we're working.

And so we found that, that that wasn't the case just because of the way that we promoted it and the way we did it.

But I often see on LinkedIn or Twitter, someone's shouting about this idea that it doesn't work because of X, Y, and Z.

But I just think it's a lot of it just comes down to implementation.

How well, how well that goes.

And so you, you implemented all this in in about nine months, I think, didn't you?

Yes, that initial manifesto was implemented over nine months from March to December, 2018, and then since then, obviously another sort of four or five years has passed.

So there's been constant sort of iterations of that and, and adding things, and tweaking things and changing things over the years.

But in terms of results, there's been, I mean, very successful for us as a business.

So, and we've kind of used a lot of different ways to measure this.

So it's starting from like a financial perspective, we looked at revenue and saw that actually revenue increase about 40% in the, the year immediate from these changes, which showed actually despite giving people more trust, more flexibility, more freedom, more responsibility, the business metrics performed well.

So revenues and profits went up about 40% and continued to increase year on year as well.

Obviously, it didn't increase as much over the covid years for, for obvious reasons, just clients pausing and different industries having, having various challenges.

But we continue to grow as a business still despite those challenges as well, which was good to see and just showed that actually the team could come together and, and really help us through a, a tricky situation like Covid was.

We've got sort of the team Happiness, so obviously I mentioned at the start that one of the reasons that we went through this change is because of low ENPS scores.

Following the implementation of it, we ended up with a a world class ENPS and it then stayed at world class for the next eight consecutive quarters, which showed actually what we were doing was a good kind of more engaging for the team, creating a happier workplace, basically, where people had more freedom or trust and more responsibility to, to really own their career and in that translator to better client scores as well.

So again, we started off with an excellent NPS on the client side, and again, following this kind of rollout, we then jumped up to a world class NPS as well from a client side which showed that then demonstrated the happier team, the happier the clients, and that kind of showed that, and nicely goes, goes hand in hand.

Now Net Promoter Score is where you ask somebody how likely they are to recommend a product or service to a friend.

So in your case, um, your SEO services.

Now employee Net Promoter Score is where you recommend how likely you are to recommend your company to a colleague or a friend.

And as you say, 70% is world class, and you've certainly gone way beyond that.

Yes, that's it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So anything above 70.

So before when we start, before we did the manifesto, our score was around sort of the faulty mark.

So it wasn't awful, um, but we've just seen a huge uplift since doing it.

Right.

So, so the, the idea of of, of football tables and things like that, that didn't, that didn't work?

No, absolutely not.

And it was one of those things where it's.

You kind of got to look at culture as, as almost like a house.

So it's almost, if you look at a, a nice house in any given road it's got a nice sort of picket fence out front.

And you look at that and think, oh, that's a, that's a great house.

But ultimately if the foundations of that house aren't right, then that house will eventually come crumbling down.

And that's kind of how I see culture.

Culture is the foundations of the organization.

And you can have sort of the table tennis tables and, and the, I dunno, great pensions or private medical insurance or nights out or various events, and that's kind of the walls and the windows and doors and the chimney.

But without the right sort of cultural foundations in terms of how do you expect people to turn up to work, what do you kind of expect to see?

How are you going to give people that freedom and that trust to really be able to do a great job?

Without those foundations in place, then the culture will end up crumbling, crumbling away.

And we reached, essentially reached a situation where we had to revolutionize the culture in the way that we worked and build better foundations going forward, or we just had to hope for the best and continue building a bigger house on weak foundations.

And I think that's where a lot of companies struggle is that they reach that breaking point as they're growing and don't strip things back and, and kind of actually what do we need to do to really build those better foundations and just grow that, that bigger house, which eventually comes, comes crumbling down.

So that was kind of the break point for us.

And I think the key point is you measure people on their output, not on their input.

Not on their what, whatever they bring, when, when they turn up at the office or whatever, things like that.

You measure people on their output.

Is that right?

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

So it's all about what is, what is that, what's the output that person's gonna achieve?

So we don't really care about how many hours someone's working on a, on a daily or weekly basis.

So of, we, we, we need to have some base level for our clients to ensure they're getting sort of value for money, but ultimately we measure outputs.

So it's things like the NPS scores of our clients come to the results that our clients see.

Are 360 reviews that we do in house to make sure that people are having a positive impact on the, on the team around them.

So those are the types of metrics that we look at instead in terms of, okay, well what is that person achieving, um, with the full sort of flexibility and, and transparency and, and job ownership that they've got, and what does that look like?

So for us, it's definitely about output rather than input.

Excellent.

And 360 degrees, how does that work?

Is it, is it the kind of stop start continuum method or is it something else?

So we try and tie it into the values of the organization, so you can choose anyone you want to, to review you.

It's all completely anonymized.

So you see.

Who scored you what and what feedback they've given you.

You can also look at anyone else across the organization and see what they've, what feedback they've given to other people, and what feedback a particular person has has received.

So that, again, that's all part of our, our transparency.

We try and score the questions in terms of our values.

We've got three values in place and we have them behaviors tied to those values.

And so then there's sort of five behaviors for each value.

You get a score for each of those behaviors, and at the end it's very much a case of what's this person doing really well you wanna see more of?

What would you like this person to start doing?

And then, so kind of anything else that can kind of help that person as well.

So we try and bring sort of a lot of, lot of things into those 360 s to make it more rounded, more useful and more valuable for people that are going through the process.

Excellent.

So tell me, Luke, what are your three top tips for workplace happiness?

Yeah, so I think the first one would be that to start with trust.

It's one of our values.

And it's something that really needs a, it's kind of a, there's a mindset shift, I suppose, when it comes to revolutionizing workplaces and really trying to build things for the future.

And ultimately a lot of the processes and ways of working that we see nowadays on this idea that people don't want to turn up to work.

They don't want to do a good job.

They want to abuse a system.

And, and, and ultimately then build these policies of distrust and say, look, you've got to work nine to five, five days a week, X amount of holiday days, X amount of this, that or the other.

And it's, all of these rules and regulations that are, are kind of outdated in my opinion.

And actually we can move forward with more kind of, practical forward thinking ways and progressive ways of working.

So starting with trust and building the company for the 95% of people that wheel and want to do a really great job and want that level of ownership wants to come in and, and really own what they're doing is really important.

Again, it comes back to kind of the idea of that house, but treating perks and benefits as as the cherry on top.

So rather than starting with Happiness and thinking, well, what's gonna create a happy workplace?

Is it gonna be kind of the, the nights out or the activities or the, the day meetups, whatever that might be?

Yeah okay, it's gonna, it's gonna create a little bit of camaraderie and maybe a bit of a feel good factor on that particular day, but over a long period of time in the, in the long term, that's not gonna be the case whatsoever.

So it's a case of, well, what can we do to really change those foundations?

So how can we change kind of the organizational structure and really move things forward?

So rather than treating perks and benefits as the bill and end all.

And then the last one would be just to include people in the decision making and the strategy across the business as well, particularly when you're going through a process of change.

And looking at progressive change and what can you do going forward, I would say that including people throughout the process is really important because ultimately they're the ones that are gonna be living and breathing the policies and the procedures and the ways of working that you want to implement.

So getting them involved really early on helps iron out some of the problems and say, well, okay, I'm not quite sure how this is gonna work.

So again, I've come back to gonna limit holiday at the time thinking, but what if everyone takes the day?

Like, how does that work?

By getting the team involved and saying, look, these are some of the challenges I've got from X policy.

They can say, well actually this is how we can safeguard against that, or This is how that could work in, in reality and, and this is where we could move forward in this way.

So you don't have to have all of the answers and you can go out and speak to the team who can actually offer really good insight and valuable information to help you progress things forward.

so trust culture and include your people.

Absolutely, definitely a long-winded way of saying that.

No, you're great.

Okay.

Thank you very much for that, Luke.

That's a brilliant insight into how to create a self-managing organization.

So much in there.

It's, he's just shown how possible it is to create a self-management organization.

And I love the point that he made.

And it's, um, alluded to the tip that you shared, um, about splitting the role of management.

You know, having, being clear about who is more strategic and those that want to work more with the people side, so making them coaches.

So I really love that.

And the fact of the holidays, Henry, Unlimited holidays.

Very interesting.

Oh, you delight that for happy, would you?

I love that for happy, but I think, but I think he's really right in the sense of that, again, it's making it a positive intent of making sure that wellbeing is at the heart of everything and therefore people would not want to abuse that.

And of course the key about unlimited holidays is that they have a minimum because there's some organizations that say, oh, we have unlimited holidays, but actually people take less holidays.

Um, and but the key, I mean, the key point for me was that they did it in just 18 months.

Now, it's taken Happy years to get to a self managing organization and no, we didn't, you know, we maybe didn't have the, other companies to, to refer to, but to do it, I know that yes, 25 people, but if you can do it in just 18 months, then anybody can do

Yeah.

And when you involve people, they get on board and they will make it happy because it is all about the people

It's all about the people.

it just reminded me of our conversation with Tom Peters, and that's one of our, so everybody encourage you, go back and listen back to Tom Peters.

Because what Luke talked about was about people being happy and it was not just about the rewards or the, adding the games and making it fun.

But it was that making sure that you create the foundation, create the fo um, the culture.

And then when your people are happy, then your clients are gonna be happy cuz they reflect your clients and your customers.

And that was something that Tom Pieces also spoke about.

So I love

Absolutely.

Okay, so let's create joy at work.