Shownotes
Bob Williams is the head coach of Fork Union Military Academy's postgraduate boys’ basketball program. Under Williams' leadership, Fork Union has achieved an impressive 102-44 record over four seasons.
Williams brought 24 years of collegiate head coaching experience to Fork Union, including a successful tenure at West Virginia University Tech from 2002 to 2019. At WVU Tech, he led the Golden Bears to the NAIA National Tournament in 2015, 2017, 2018, and 2019. Williams' accomplishments at WVU Tech include being named "Coach of the Year" three times, recording his 403rd career win, producing 14 All-Americans, and securing three conference championships.
Prior to WVU Tech, Williams was the head coach at Glenville State College from 1997-2002 and the head coach at Jefferson Community College (NY) from 1995-1997.
Williams has also served as the associate head coach at Jefferson, an assistant coach at NCAA Division III Potsdam State (NY), and the head coach at Indian River High School (NY). His coaching journey began as a student-assistant coach at Ithaca College (NY).
On this episode Mike talks with Bob Williams about his extensive coaching career, which spans over two decades and includes significant achievements at various institutions, notably West Virginia Tech and Glenville State. We delve into his coaching philosophy, with particular emphasis on player development and the importance of cultivating a team-oriented atmosphere. Additionally, the conversation highlights the challenges and rewards of coaching in today’s rapidly evolving basketball landscape, particularly in relation to recruiting and player placement. Through Williams' insights, we gain a profound understanding of the dynamics of coaching at the preparatory level and the pivotal role it plays in shaping young athletes' futures.
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Grab your notebook and pen before you listen to this episode with Bob Williams, head coach of Fork Union Military Academy's postgraduate boys’ basketball program.
Website – https://athletics.forkunion.com/sports/mens-basketball
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Transcripts
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Speaker B: tball Fork Union opened up in: Speaker B:I really was looking to do something different.
Speaker B:I had already rebuilt programs at Glenville and West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:I didn't really want a small college rebuild again.
Speaker B:I either wanted to be a Division 1 assistant or Division 1 advisor.
Speaker B:So when Fork Union opened up, I said, wow, that's something that I think I would like something different.
Speaker C:Bob Williams is the head coach of Fork Union Military Academy's postgraduate boys basketball program.
Speaker C: on has achieved an impressive: Speaker C: Virginia Tech University from: Speaker C: he NAI national tournament in: Speaker C:Williams accomplishments at West Virginia Tech include being named Coach of the Year three times, recording his 403rd career win, producing 14 All Americans, and securing three conference championships.
Speaker C: Glenville State College from: Speaker C:Williams has also served as the associate Head coach at Jefferson and assistant coach at NCAA Division 3 Potsdam State and as the head coach at Indian River High School in New York.
Speaker C:His coaching journey began as a student assistant coach at Ithaca College.
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Speaker C:Download Gamechanger now on iOS or Android and take your coaching to the next level with Film room on gamechanger, Game Changer Stream Score Connect Grab your notebook and pen before you listen to this episode with Bob Williams, head coach of Fork Union Military Academy's postgraduate boys basketball program.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.
Speaker A:It's Mike Clemsing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Bob Williams, the head postgraduate coach at Fork Union Military Academy.
Speaker A:Bob, welcome to the Hoopetz Pod.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me on Mike.
Speaker A:Excited to have you on.
Speaker A:Looking forward to diving into all of the diverse things that you've been able to do in your career at various levels.
Speaker A:Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.
Speaker A:Tell me about your childhood growing up with the game of basketball.
Speaker A:What made you fall in love with it?
Speaker B:Well, my father was a longtime basketball coach, college coach, junior college level and high school level in, in New York State where I'm from, upstate New York.
Speaker B:And so I became a gym rat, you know, at a young age and tag along and was the ball boy at his for Jefferson Community College where I later played and coached and with my two brothers and we had the number 1, 2 and 3 on our shirts for ball boy 1, 2 and 3.
Speaker B:And we sat on the bench and it was quite an education really to see back in those days in the, in the early 70s and late 70s 80s junior college basketball was really good in New York State and one of the best areas in the country at the time.
Speaker B:So I got, got a good, got to see a lot of good basketball be around my father who later went on to be a Hall of Fame coach in New York State and learn the game and, and just my father, he tells the story that when I was about 13, I was watching probably Notre Dame and UCLA play and Game of the Week and, and was recognizing what defenses were being played and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So I think at a young age I, I decided I, that's probably what was in my blood and I wanted to go into coaching eventually.
Speaker A:Contrast for me the way that you grew up in the game as a player and obviously with your dad being a coach had a big influence on you.
Speaker A:But when you think about the way that the players that you coach today, how they grow up in the game and just how the, the environment around basketball has changed From a youth, grassroots, obviously, a lot of pickup basketball back in the day when you and I are growing up, versus the way that it is today.
Speaker A:But just give me your thoughts and just compare and contrast how you grew up in the game versus how your guys that you're coaching today grow up in it.
Speaker B:Yeah, when, when you and I grew up, Mike, it was your parents sent you outside to play all day.
Speaker B:If it was summertime, you went out in the morning, you probably played pick up baseball and then pick up basketball.
Speaker B:If it was in the fall, maybe some football in the backyard or you went down to the schoolyard and you played baseball or basketball.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so we would be out there all day until dinner time, you know, and then after dinner maybe go out back and turn the lights on to shoot outside or play two on two or whatever.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, I played a crazy amount of pickup basketball growing up in high school and college, and I was fortunate enough to play four years of high school basketball and three years of college basketball and.
Speaker B:But always was looking for a place.
Speaker B:I was, I was what, that, that guy in, in our town, Watertown, New York, where I'm from.
Speaker B:A city, small city, about 30,000.
Speaker B:But I was the guy who called and arranged the pickup games and left voice messages on for every player and said, hey, we're playing at 6:00 at Wiley tonight, or we're playing at 6:00 at the Salvation army or at such and such school and.
Speaker B:Or outdoors, courts, fairgrounds.
Speaker B:And then you call, try to call 15 players and hoping that 10 would show up.
Speaker B:And they usually did.
Speaker B:And we had good runs and it was great childhood and great memories and, you know, compared to now, you know, my son just finished his college career and, and I probably can count on, on one hand how many times he's played outsides, you know, pick up.
Speaker B:Kids are afraid to play outside because they think they might get hurt nowadays.
Speaker B:But it's a different world.
Speaker B:Everything's changed and, and everything's got to be organized, you know.
Speaker B:See, I don't think kids play a lot of pickup anymore.
Speaker B:Where they organize, it has to be organized for them on teams or summer leagues or for coaches.
Speaker B:Got to bring them in and kind of make them do it.
Speaker B:But it's definitely different nowadays.
Speaker B:And kids seem, I think kids, back when I was growing up, you know, I played so much, probably too much.
Speaker B:I still worked on my ball handling and shooting on my own.
Speaker B:But kids nowadays, they all have trainers and they work on their skill development constantly or strength training or, you Know, and those types of things.
Speaker B:And we didn't have this.
Speaker B:The trainers back then or the.
Speaker B:The strength training techniques that they have today.
Speaker B:And so they have some advantages, but I think maybe they work on skill too much.
Speaker B:And back then, we probably played too much because we just enjoyed playing.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a very good description of the way that the game has changed.
Speaker A:I think certainly one of the things that I've talked to several coaches about is just the fact that when you look at, let's just say, the average high school team, and you think about the guy who was maybe the 10th or 11th man on your high school team, probably was a kid who maybe wasn't very skilled, maybe was a big football guy that just set some screens and bang people around.
Speaker A:And now you look at the 10th or 11th kid on a lot of high school teams, and they're very, very, very skilled, and the shooting and the ball handling and those kinds of things that you develop by working with the trainer, I think are off the charts in terms of that skill development.
Speaker A:And yet, at the same time, I think you talked about it in terms of playing a lot of pickup ball.
Speaker A:I think that there was a higher, just in general, a basketball IQ or maybe an understanding of some things, maybe the tricks of the trade that you or I developed by playing with guys who were older than us or bigger than us and pushed us around.
Speaker A:And so I think there's.
Speaker A:There's positives to both.
Speaker A:I always say that I'm.
Speaker A:I'm glad I grew up in the era that I did, not that I wouldn't have enjoyed the era of being able to go and play AAU and play in nice gyms and not have to be running up and down on the asphalt all day and putting the shoe goo on the bottom of my shoes to keep those things going so I can continue to play.
Speaker A:But it's definitely a different atmosphere, certainly today for kids growing up in the game that it was back when.
Speaker A:When you were playing and when I was growing up, too.
Speaker A:Tell me about the influence of your dad on you as a coach.
Speaker A:When you think about growing up watching him and the way that he went about his business, what's one or two things that you still carry with you today that you feel like are a part of you as a coach that you got from him?
Speaker B:I think he's.
Speaker B:He was somewhat of a player's coach in that he, He.
Speaker B:He believed in players and he gave them the green light, and he was more of an offensive coach.
Speaker B:I'm probably more of A defensive guy myself in my career, but he was a very good bench coach and I, so I got a great seat watching him work the officials and communicate with the players and communicate in huddles and change defenses and, and change strategies.
Speaker B:And back in those days watching him coach, you know, there was no shot clock or three point shot until later in his career.
Speaker B:But so when I was a kid there was no shot clock.
Speaker B:So you would see sometimes they would go to four corners, stall, you know, and so you'd see these different types of strategies, especially back in those days.
Speaker B:And, and, and so I think that, you know, bench coaching, I think he was his strength in game adjustments and in game coaching and, and he coached for 27 years at Jefferson Community College and the all time wins leader there in the New York State hall of Fame.
Speaker B:And he coached four years before that in high school and he was a junior college all American at Broome Community College, first team.
Speaker B:Then he played at Lamar University in Texas.
Speaker B:And so he had a great playing career and great coaching career as well.
Speaker B:And so I, I learned that I think.
Speaker B:And he was, he was a very good shooting coach.
Speaker B:He always had good shooting teams and they, they did a lot, they focused a lot on shooting in practice and it carried over into the games and, but he had some really good teams and good players over the years combined from recruiting in New York State, downstate, in New York City, Long island and then in the cities Syracuse and Binghamton and Buffalo and Rochester and Albany and upstate New York.
Speaker B:And it was a joy to be around.
Speaker B:My father's still living and it retired and with my mom down in Florida.
Speaker B:And so it, you know, a lot of things rubbed off just from tagging along to the gym, you know, and being in the gym all day Saturday and staying up late and then when they had road games, running into, knocking on his bedroom door to see if they won the night before, you know, so that's kind of how I grew up.
Speaker B:And I grew up in a snow, Snowtown area, Watertown, New York and where a lot of my friends were on the ski slopes and, but I was in the gym all the time and, and couldn't, couldn't have been happier.
Speaker A:When you started your coaching career, how often did you talk to your dad to bounce things off of him?
Speaker B:I think he was more of a dad that encouraged me.
Speaker B:You know, we, we talked strategy a little bit, but not a ton.
Speaker B: oung coach, he retired in, in: Speaker B:So 95, 96, and 96, 97.
Speaker B:It was the two years that I coached, right after he coached 27 years and we had some success, and he.
Speaker B:So he got to see this, see me coach that first year.
Speaker B:And then the next year he moved to Florida and retired and.
Speaker B:But, you know, I know he watches all the games.
Speaker B:He still watches my games now here at Fork Union and watches my son's games.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's always tough when you.
Speaker B:It's like, I, I think it was harder for me when I watched my son's games or my dad's games.
Speaker B:It was harder on me than my own games, you know, And I think it's the same for, for my father.
Speaker B:No stress when he was coaching, but when he was watching my team play, a lot of stress.
Speaker B:And same when he came to see me play in high school and stuff.
Speaker B:And it's funny how that works.
Speaker A:You want to have a little bit of control, right.
Speaker A:When you're just sitting there in the stands and you're watching somebody else do it.
Speaker A:No control over what's going to happen.
Speaker A:And when, at least when you're coaching or when you were playing, you feel like you had some control over the outcome.
Speaker A:When you're just sitting in the stands, just an observer during that time, for sure.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And you, you know, you want your loved ones to do well.
Speaker A:When you went to school, did you.
Speaker A:Were you thinking that because of your dad's experience at the college level that you knew you wanted to coach college basketball?
Speaker A:Were you at all thinking ever about, hey, maybe I'm going to teach and coach at the high school level, or maybe you weren't even thinking necessarily that coaching was going to be your main profession.
Speaker A:Just what was your mindset as you entered college?
Speaker B:I knew I wanted to coach college basketball as I entered college, and I knew I.
Speaker B:I had to get a degree, a bachelor's degree to make that happen?
Speaker B:I wasn't the most stellar student, and I had to work especially at the maths and sciences because I was in physical education.
Speaker B:And so I had my ups and downs academically and then.
Speaker B:And I wasn't the most mature student in college.
Speaker B:You know, I was more of a social guy and didn't miss many social activities at Ithaca College, where I went, where I graduated from.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I knew I wanted to.
Speaker B:To be a college basketball coach.
Speaker B:And I, I actually played three years, played two years for my dad at Jefferson Community College, and then one year at Ithaca College, and then I became a student coach.
Speaker B:For my last two years at Ithaca College.
Speaker B:So that, that kind of helped me be get the fir.
Speaker B:My first job was the head coach at head boys basketball coach at Indian River High School in Northern New York State.
Speaker B:And I did that for two years.
Speaker B:And so that was my first job.
Speaker B:And after that I, we weren't very good and, and I said I need to be able to get to a place where I can recruit my players and pick my players.
Speaker B:So I, I went to the college level.
Speaker B:I went to Potsdam State College in upstate New York and worked for a Hall of Fame coach there and Jerry Welch and I, I stayed there for four years and that was, that was a great learning experience as well.
Speaker A:So tell me a little bit.
Speaker A:Let's go back to the student.
Speaker A:You know, the student coaching.
Speaker A:When you're at Ithaca those last two years, what does that look like for you, going to school and being a part of the coaching staff?
Speaker A:How integrated were you into what the staff was doing?
Speaker A:Were you, would you have considered yourself completely immersed in the coaching staff or were you still kind of looked at as being a guy who was sort of on the side?
Speaker A:Just what was that experience like for you in terms of how immersed you were, what you were able to see, what you were able to learn during those two years?
Speaker B:Yeah, Tom Baker was the head coach at Ithaca when I went to school there and, and I learned a lot from him.
Speaker B:He was very organized.
Speaker B:His practices were very organized and detail oriented.
Speaker B:And I played one year and I didn't get to play that much.
Speaker B:I was like third string point guard.
Speaker B:So I, I just, I, I decided I would go to coach and say can I be a student coach in the program?
Speaker B:Maybe I can help the program better that way and then prepare me for my coaching career.
Speaker B:And it was, ended up being a good decision.
Speaker B:I, I was the varsity student assistant coach and I didn't have a ton of input because they had a full time assistant and two graduate assistants ahead of me.
Speaker B:But it was still good to be around all of those good people that were very good coaches and then, and also helped coach the JV basketball team.
Speaker B:So that really helped probably more than being the varsity student coach because I got to be able to be on the court and teach and, and, and things like that.
Speaker B:So that was, it was.
Speaker B:All in all it was a great experience and a, it helped me for the next step.
Speaker A:What part of coaching do you feel like you took to the most?
Speaker A:Naturally, that came to you pretty easily.
Speaker A:Whether you want to talk about just relationships with players you want to talk about player development, you want to talk about X's and O's, you want to talk about something else.
Speaker A:What, what did you feel like just clicked for you right away.
Speaker B:That's hard to pinpoint, but I would say just.
Speaker B:I've always prided myself being a good professional coach.
Speaker B:And as far as being able to communicate with people all, you know, recruits, coaches, whoever, administrators, decision makers and.
Speaker B:And everybody that you met along the way, whether you're, wherever you've gone and wherever the basketball is, has allowed you to travel to.
Speaker B:And it's take can take you to amazing places and meet amazing people.
Speaker B:But I think just maintaining professionalism is one thing that I've probably prided myself in.
Speaker B:And treating people the right way, always treating everybody with a respect, probably just from being around good people and having great parents, you know, that has.
Speaker B:Has allowed me to.
Speaker B:And I think people, you know, there's an old saying, people won't remember what you said to them, but they'll always remember how you made them feel.
Speaker B:And I think it's just kind of the way I've lived my life.
Speaker B:A good Catholic boy from northern New York State and good, you know, Christian.
Speaker A:Lifestyle, knowing that you wanted to coach at the college level when you graduate and you get that job at Indian river, just tell me about the process of how that came to pass and what your impressions were of coaching at the high school level maybe compared to what you thought.
Speaker A:And obviously you're a pretty young guy at that point as a head coach.
Speaker A:So what do you remember about that experience?
Speaker B:Well, I.
Speaker B: r and on an old typewriter in: Speaker B:And the guy that I mailed the letter to turned out to be one of my great mentors, Steve Van Dusen.
Speaker B:Steve was a longtime family friend and also a successful high school coach in that area.
Speaker B:And then he moved into administration.
Speaker B:He was the principal now at Indian River.
Speaker B:And Steve tried to talk me out of the varsity job.
Speaker B:He knew I wasn't ready.
Speaker B:I, of course, I'm 23.
Speaker B:I thought I was ready for the job and in no way shape or form really was I.
Speaker B:But, you know, you couldn't tell me that I couldn't be the head coach, the varsity team.
Speaker B:And he tried to get me to take the JV job to start out with.
Speaker B:I said no.
Speaker B:So he Ended up letting me be the varsity coach, and I replaced a very successful individual there.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And there wasn't much left in the cupboard when he retired.
Speaker B:And so, needless to say, it was.
Speaker B:It was a little frustrating not winning.
Speaker B:And, you know, when you're 23 and you think you got everything figured out and you got all the answers and you, you know, you can coach anybody under the table and.
Speaker B:And then you find out you're not as good as you thought because you're not winning, you know, and, you know, it was my.
Speaker B:I would complain to my mom.
Speaker B:I hate losing mom.
Speaker B:And she would be like, rob, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But it was still, all in all, as I look back at it, as a blessing, everything was a blessing.
Speaker B:And Hubie Brown, the great Hubie Brown, he said many times, I've heard him at coaches clinics, and he said, I hope you lose early in your career so you will learn how to win.
Speaker B:And instead of getting spoiled and with winning early on.
Speaker B:And there's.
Speaker B:There's something to be said for that.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But yeah, it was two good years there of cutting my teeth and then learning about life and basketball.
Speaker A:How does the opportunity then at Potsdam come to you?
Speaker B:And so when I left Indian river, you know, I was looking to get to the college level, and I was look.
Speaker B:Looking around in Potsdam States.
Speaker B:The second assistant there had just left and went to another school.
Speaker B:And so I applied at Potsdam.
Speaker B:Jerry Welsh was the head coach there at the time.
Speaker B:Jerry had won two national championships in Division 3 at Potsdam, including an 85, 86 team that went undefeated, I think 33.
Speaker B:And, oh, their team was amazing.
Speaker B:So he had great teams and five Final Fours.
Speaker B:And so he brought me up, I interviewed, and I had been working.
Speaker B:I know you worked camps, and I was working camps at that time, too.
Speaker B:In the summer, you know, you're working as many weeks as you can.
Speaker B:I was working at Villanova, worked Rolly Massimino's camps, and Jay Wright was the third assistant and was running the camps at the time.
Speaker B:And I asked Jay if he would make a phone call to Jerry Welsh for me.
Speaker B:And he brought me in his office, and he was nice enough to call and recommended me for that job.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it was Jay.
Speaker B:Jay.
Speaker B:I don't know if he's from.
Speaker B:He used to Coach in Division 3.
Speaker B:Started out Division 3 up in New York State, I think at University of Rochester, maybe.
Speaker B:And so Jay called and I ended up interviewing and getting the job.
Speaker B:And, you know, it was one of those jobs.
Speaker B:It was $2,500, or maybe not even that was $2,000.
Speaker B:A dorm room at age 25 and no meal plan.
Speaker B:And you're expected to be in the office at 9am and don't be late.
Speaker B:And, and then head coach of the JV basketball team and varsity assistant.
Speaker B:And Bill Mitchell was the top assistant then.
Speaker B:And, and we had great staff.
Speaker B:We probably had four or five assistant coaches and a great facilities.
Speaker B:5,000 students at the school, maybe a little more good college town.
Speaker B:Clarkson University there also in the same town.
Speaker B:And St.
Speaker B:Lawrence University's down the road and learned a ton of basketball from Jerry Welch.
Speaker B:Jerry's still living and Jerry's in the New York State hall of Fame also.
Speaker B:And, and I didn't mention that I played for a great high school coach, Lou Kibling at Watertown High School, and he's in the New York State hall of Fame.
Speaker B:Coach Kimling passed away a couple years ago and Jerry Welsh is still living and retired in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Speaker B:He, he went on to scout in the NBA, but after the first year at Potsdam State, Jerry was.
Speaker B:Was offered and took the Iona College job.
Speaker B:And kind of a risk for him to take over a struggling Mac job like that, but he took it.
Speaker B:And I remember, I remember him telling the story of the ad says, why would we take a chance on you, a Division 3 coach, to come here to Iona?
Speaker B:And Jerry Welch looked at him and said, I'm the one taking the chance here.
Speaker B:I have a very strong program here.
Speaker B:You know, he's got two national titles and.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And five Final Fours and countless All Americans and pros and, and so he really was the one taking a chance.
Speaker B:And, and he went to Iona and I stayed at Potsdam and Bill Mitchell was elevated to head coach and I stayed three more years and worked under Bill Mitchell there and became the top assistant and the recruiting coordinator.
Speaker B:And so in Division 3.
Speaker B:Thing about Division 3 is you're recruiting every single day.
Speaker B:We had a sign in our office from the Long Island Profile Recruiting Service that said recruit daily or parish.
Speaker B:And it's pretty accurate because that's why Division Threes, I mean, they get good players, they recruit all year round, whereas Division Twos will wait so kind of right now, this time of year.
Speaker B:And, and Division Ones now with roster management, they have to go year round too.
Speaker B:But so it was a great experience just from learning how to recruit and going on the road for days and weeks, weeks at a time around New York State.
Speaker B:And, and it was a great experience and coached the JV team for two years.
Speaker B:So while I was learning how to be a recruiter, I also was able to hone my skills as a head coach for two years.
Speaker A:I think those reps, right.
Speaker A:As a head coach are really valuable.
Speaker A:And sometimes I know that from my own experience when I was the varsity assistant coach, that there was one year out of the stretch of whatever, 13 or 14 years that I was the assistant varsity coach where I coached the JV team because our JV coach had taken another position and I was completely rusty at making in game decisions.
Speaker A:You talked about how one of the strengths of your dad was being a great in game coach.
Speaker A:And I know that year I was not a great in game coach.
Speaker A:And it definitely took me a little while to be able to sort of remember that, hey, I got to be the guy that makes the decision about when to call a timeout or I've got to be the guy that makes the decision about who's summoned in the game or I've got to make a decision about are we going to change what we're doing here in reaction to what our opponent's trying to do.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes when you're an assistant and you don't ever really get those opportunities to make those decisions, those skills can get rusty pretty fast.
Speaker A:And I definitely found that for myself that even though I was coaching, I was in it every single day as an assistant.
Speaker A:It's completely different once you sort of slide over and everybody knows that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But when you're even talking about just taking over, in your case a college JV program, or for me, taking over a high school JV program for a year.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You get those reps that I think ultimately become much more valuable as you move on in your career.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And just moving one seat over to the hot seat can, can mean all the difference.
Speaker B:And, and we've seen over the years many, many coaches that have at the college level aim in high school too, where a coach has sat next to a great coach for years and then when they get their chance, they haven't been as successful.
Speaker B:But, you know, not, I'm not saying everybody, but that has happened and now talking about honing your skills.
Speaker B:So one of the ways I think really benefited me to become a head coach was working basketball camps.
Speaker B:And so you're in, you're teaching in stations, you know, in an intense environment.
Speaker B:You're, you're working with kids and trying to teach them the fundamentals of, of whether it's blocking out or how to V cut and get Open and getting triple threat or how to defend a screen or shell drill and then.
Speaker B:And then coaching a team.
Speaker B:And while you're at it, you know, while you're 21, 22, 23, 25 years old or whatever.
Speaker B:And so I think that's a great way just in camps where coaches can hone their skills and without even being a head coach, maybe you're getting that head coaching type of experience of teaching and coaching a team.
Speaker A:What was your favorite camp you worked at?
Speaker B:I enjoyed Villanova.
Speaker B:I think I worked like three weeks each summer.
Speaker B:And in between the weeks, we would, some of us coaching buddies, we would go rent a house down at the Jersey shore, you know, or something like that.
Speaker B:And so that, that was probably the most fun I've had.
Speaker B:And Roll used to every night Rollie would, Massimino would.
Speaker B:He had hundreds of coaches, big camps.
Speaker B:These were back in the days where individual camps were huge.
Speaker B:And so he, every night he would take care of the coaches and he would have a keg of beer and.
Speaker B:And then he'd bring in, you know, tons of pizzas.
Speaker B:And then whoever was speaking the next day, say it was Chuck Daly was speaking to the camp the next day.
Speaker B:He would come in the night before, spend time with Rollie and then.
Speaker B:And, and speak to the coaches, you know, in a coaches type clinic setting.
Speaker B:That was really neat.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And also Rollie Massimino, he didn't use Villanova's food.
Speaker B:He brought his own food service in.
Speaker B:So they brought their own truck in and they had lobster and steak.
Speaker B:And for the campers, I mean, it was amazing and it was really good.
Speaker B:So there was some fringe benefits there and.
Speaker B:But that was always fun.
Speaker B:And one of my favorite camps though is the five star camp.
Speaker B:I didn't work the camp.
Speaker B:I had a couple assistant coaches of mine worked the camp.
Speaker B:But they, I would love, I'd love to go to Honesdale in New York or in Pennsylvania, Honesdale, and the outdoor cabins and outdoor courts and watch people like Rashid Wallace and those guys play and, and then.
Speaker B:Or go to Pitt Pittsburgh and see pit three at five star, which was a big time week.
Speaker B:Those, those were fun to go recruit at and then socialize, meet people and network and.
Speaker B:And so I enjoyed those camps for sure.
Speaker A:Funny when I think back to the top of our conversation, right, about just the different way that players grow up in the game today versus the way that players grew up in the game when you and I were kids.
Speaker A:And to me there's no better example of that than five star Right.
Speaker A:You show up at either one of those locations.
Speaker A:I, I went.
Speaker A:When I was a player, I went to.
Speaker A:I went.
Speaker A:I was lucky enough to go one year to Robert Morris.
Speaker A:And you show up and you're playing on converted tennis courts.
Speaker A:It's 95 degrees, there's no air conditioning in the dorms.
Speaker A:You're sitting there after lunch, and you're listening to whoever the clinician that comes in to give the speech.
Speaker A:And the week I was there, the.
Speaker A:The guy who was the.
Speaker A:The player, the big name, the week I was there was Billy Owens.
Speaker A:And so Billy Owens is in the cafeteria, you know, and he's helping to serve and all those different things to be able to get his camp tuition paid for or whatever the deal was back in the day that Garf had going with all the.
Speaker A:With all the main guys.
Speaker A: hem or just drop them back in: Speaker A:You're going to show up and you're going to play on these converted tennis courts outside in the sun, it's 95 degrees, and you're gonna have to pour milk and clean the tables and do all this stuff.
Speaker A:And these guys would be looking at you like, you have, like, seven heads.
Speaker A:But it was just, as you said, it was a different era.
Speaker A:And, yeah, my.
Speaker A:The week that I was there as a player was probably one of my favorite weeks of camp.
Speaker A:And just as an experience to be there with so many great players, but also just great coaches that were there working with you in all those different ways.
Speaker A:Yeah, Five Star was a totally, totally different animal than anything that we see today, that's for sure.
Speaker B:And Station 13 and, and that.
Speaker B:That's awesome, though.
Speaker B:You must have been a pretty good player, Mike, to be at Five Star with all.
Speaker B:With Billy Owens and all those guys.
Speaker B:I, I grew up the Syracuse fan.
Speaker B:Everybody from my hometown were an hour outside of Syracuse, so everybody was huge Syracuse fans.
Speaker B:And Syracuse, of course, had an amazing program back in the 70s, 70s, 80s and 90s.
Speaker B:And Billy Owens, of course, I believe, from Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was a great player.
Speaker B:That's a great story, though, that he had to work.
Speaker B:Work his.
Speaker B:His fees off.
Speaker A:And I remember, I remember Garf during one of the times when the whole camp was together at that time.
Speaker A:He always called him the Baryshnikov of basketball.
Speaker A:So he's like, Billy Owens, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the Baryshnikov of basketball.
Speaker A:And I'll never, I'll.
Speaker A:I'll just never forget that.
Speaker A:Him.
Speaker A:Him saying that just walking around.
Speaker A:And that was a time where the guy used to read the blue ribbon college basketball yearbook that had all the, whatever, top 50 or top 75 high school players.
Speaker A:So, like, I knew all those guys, not.
Speaker A:Not knew him, but, you know, I mean, you knew their picture, knew their stats, knew where they were from.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, man.
Speaker A:Like there's, you know, that's, there's.
Speaker A:There's Billy Owens right there.
Speaker A:And I've been looking at his picture for the last two or three years as, you know, this guy.
Speaker A:So it was, it was definitely, it was definitely an experience to be able to, to be able to be a part of that.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:All right, jumping back to, Jumping back to your career, you get an opportunity at three different spots to be a head collegiate coach.
Speaker A:And as you go through those varying experiences, obviously you spent the longest time at West Virginia University Tech, but you're also at Glenville and you were also, as you said, at Jefferson, where your dad had coached.
Speaker A:So tell me a little bit about those experiences.
Speaker A:I know we could just go chronologically, but start with Jefferson and kind of what you learned being a head coach at the college level for the first time.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was young in my.
Speaker B:In my 20s at Jefferson, and I felt like I was ready and we were able to.
Speaker B:I really recruited hard out of New York City and Long island and, and brought some good, talented players to Jefferson, which is not easy to do because it's five, five and a half hours from New York City, you know, and up in the middle of nowhere for those kids and.
Speaker B:But we had two really good teams.
Speaker B:We went to Final Four both years and Junior College Division three, and had a couple All Americans and went to.
Speaker B:Won the regional state championship the second year, went to the nationals both years and national championship game in 97, lost to Heartbreaker in the waning seconds.
Speaker B:And that, that ate at me for several years, losing that game.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:They had a good team and we kind of made a run and we really shouldn't have gone as far as we did on paper, but we did.
Speaker B:It wasn't nearly as talent.
Speaker B:Well, it was a good team, but it wasn't as deep and talented as the year before.
Speaker B:But anyways, everything just clicked and we won the regional state championship and then made a run to the finals and we Were down, I want to say 16 with eight minutes to go, made a big run back.
Speaker B:The game was in New York State, so we had a big crowd there and then we lost and it was tied with a minute to go.
Speaker B:And then they, I think they scored the last four points of the game to win.
Speaker B:And that was heartbreaking.
Speaker B:Just walking into the locker room after the game and seeing, you know, 18, 19 year old kids weeping the way they were weeping.
Speaker B:I've never seen athletes weep that openly loud before where they were wailing, you know, in so much pain from that loss.
Speaker B:And, and that man, that's, I don't, I couldn't sleep I don't think for three days after that.
Speaker B:It hurts so bad.
Speaker B:And then, and, and then it just took a while to get over that.
Speaker B:And it probably took me several years to get over that.
Speaker B:But now I look back at it, it's fine, you know, it's just, it's all a blessing.
Speaker B:But that took some time as a young coach and then to get that close to a national title and then come up short.
Speaker B:But, and so then after that year I started looking around and I had interviewed for, yeah, so I, I, when I was at Potsdam and Jefferson I was interviewing for some D1 assistant jobs and then, and, and, and all other jobs too.
Speaker B:D3 Head, head coaching jobs and what have you.
Speaker B:And then so I, I was, threw my name in.
Speaker B:I'm just based on success.
Speaker B:I only knew one person in West Virginia and it was a kid that played on our team at Jefferson and I didn't know anybody else from West Virginia.
Speaker B:And I, I applied at Glenville State and they, I was the last one of five to interview.
Speaker B:It was on a Friday in August of 97.
Speaker B:And, and as soon as I got back to the hotel in Glenville they, they called me up and offered me the job even before I left town.
Speaker B:And I, I, the following Monday I had a Division 1 interview at Fairley Dickinson scheduled and which was a lower paying job just outside of New York.
Speaker B:And so I don't know if I could afford to do that.
Speaker B:So I, I told Glenville yes and I canceled the interview with Fairleigh Dickinson for Monday.
Speaker B:And Glenville was impressed with the team.
Speaker B:They were based, it was just based on, we had success at Jefferson.
Speaker B:And then you know, they want to know if I could bring some players with me.
Speaker B:So I did.
Speaker B:I brought two players with me and one was the first team all American and, and both of them ended up being starters for us at Glenville and Glenville was A rebuilding situation.
Speaker B:I, you know, both Glenville and West Virginia Tech were down when I took those programs.
Speaker B:Glenville was in last place I think or second to last place in a 15 team NCAA D2 conference.
Speaker B:And in a very remote area of West Virginia, 20 miles off the beaten path through winding roads.
Speaker B:Wonderful community.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed my 5 years at Glenville State rebuilding that program.
Speaker B:First year I think we were 7 and 20 and it was just so rewarding and we overachieved and then we started knocking off some of the top teams.
Speaker B:And then the last two years I was at Glenville we, we won more games than anybody in the, in the conference.
Speaker B:Now this tells you how good that league was.
Speaker B:The West Virginia Conference back then, it's.
Speaker B:They since changed the name to the Mountain East Conference.
Speaker B:But the West Virginia Conference in 97, 98 had five teams ranked in the top 25 in one poll.
Speaker B:So that in one Division 2 poll.
Speaker B:So you knew that was a really good league and in fun league to coach in.
Speaker B:Great coaches, great players and great communities.
Speaker B:Small colleges and.
Speaker B:But Glenville was a small town and you know, really good football there and, and now since they've grown, expanded a little bit, they got a nice big arena now, but we had a small gym back then.
Speaker B:It was a home court advantage and, and you know the gym was packed and the community loved the team.
Speaker B:The community was terrific and they supported the team and they still do.
Speaker B:And it was great experience.
Speaker B:My five years there.
Speaker B:Made a lot of friends at Glenville and then a lot of coaching friends along the way and players, you know that became lifelong friends that played for us there.
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Speaker A:What's the adjustment like when you go from one geographical area to another, when you've been recruiting primarily in one area?
Speaker A:So you spent a lot of your career in New York.
Speaker A:Now all of a sudden, as you said, you only know one person in West Virginia.
Speaker A:You show up.
Speaker A:And again, at that time, a lot of your relationships had to be with high school coaches and getting to know people so that they would clue you in as to, hey, here's some guys that you should be looking at.
Speaker A:What was that process like for you as you transitioned just in terms of the recruiting and, and building those relationships that you need in order to be a good recruiter?
Speaker B:That's a great question, Mike, because a lot of people get passed up on jobs because they don't have recruiting experience in certain geographic areas.
Speaker B:So really I only knew New York State, you know, when I went to.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden I'm in a D2 league in West Virginia.
Speaker B:So, you know, I always prided myself in recruiting local.
Speaker B:And we started recruiting some local kids and then we recruited good local players in West Virginia and.
Speaker B:Which brought more fans and more media attention to the team.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But I had to quickly learn about, learn the state of West Virginia.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then I ended up living in West Virginia for 24 years, 26 years before I moved here, but coached for 24 years and raised my family there.
Speaker B:And, and it's kind of, it's really home now.
Speaker B:And, but we had to learn not just West Virginia, but you had to try to get into the Cincinnati area and Columbus and Cleveland and D.C.
Speaker B:and Baltimore and, and then recruit nationally, too, because you're.
Speaker B:You're going to look at junior colleges, players from around the country.
Speaker B:You're going to the national tournament in Illinois and Kansas and in different places.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And then utilizing two contacts that you've already had throughout the years.
Speaker A:What attracted you to the job at West Virginia Tech?
Speaker B:Well, West Virginia Tech was.
Speaker B:And we were, we kind of beat up on West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:But when I left Glenville, you know, I knew West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:I could have success there just because I already knew the conference.
Speaker B:You know, they were in the West Virginia Conference at the time, and it ended up being a great move.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, maybe I'll just go there for a few years.
Speaker B:And then I ended up staying 17 years.
Speaker B:Funny how Things work out, but especially when you start raising children, you know, it's harder to move around once your kids are starting to grow up.
Speaker B:But West Virginia Tech had a great basketball tradition.
Speaker B:Maybe better than Glenville in the.
Speaker B:In, you know, tradition wise and West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:Siddell 3 was the all time leading scorer there.
Speaker B:Siddell 3 played in the NBA for 12 seasons.
Speaker B:You probably remember him, he replaced Magic Johnson.
Speaker A:I played against the Dell 3 a couple times up here up here in Cleveland and some pickup games around nice back.
Speaker A:Back when that used to be.
Speaker A:Back when that used to be a thing like we talked about.
Speaker B:But yeah, that's great.
Speaker B:So you played against a lot of good players.
Speaker B:But so you know, Sadel was a cat quick athletic guard, scoring guard and Sadell wants.
Speaker B:That's not to get off on a tangent but saddle three once scored 55 points against the Knicks in the Garden and so the.
Speaker B:He was just one of many, many really good players in the West Virginia conference over the years.
Speaker B:And that was when they were NAI and then soon then later went to D2.
Speaker B:But so a lot of great players have gone to a lot of those small colleges in West Virginia and.
Speaker B:And one of the coaches there before me, Tom Sutherland was a great coach at West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:He had a pipeline going from Atlanta and then.
Speaker B:But we had to put our own niche and then coach Neil Bicey, the building I coached in.
Speaker B:Coach Neil Bicey was a legendary coach and did clinics with Rob and Auerbach and those guys and he's.
Speaker B:He wrote a book on full court zone press and it was one of the first college team to score to average 100 points a game in three straight years.
Speaker B:But he was also one of some years he would slow it down and run four corners and.
Speaker B:But what a great coach he was and great man and.
Speaker B:But I was fortunate to.
Speaker B:To try to rebuild that program.
Speaker B:We were able to do it.
Speaker B:It took a few years to do that.
Speaker B:West Virginia Tech was having some troubles with administration and changing conferences, going through a number of presidents, athletic directors, football coaches.
Speaker B:And I kind of outlasted a lot of people and I stayed there and.
Speaker B:And then finally we.
Speaker B:And we went from changed affiliations.
Speaker B:We left the West Virginia Conference, went back to the NAIA.
Speaker B:Then we were NAI Division 1 for a while and we were in a Kentucky league and then NAI Division 2 independent and now NAI has gone back to one division but the West Virginia Tech and also the school moved from Beckley or from Montgomery, West Virginia where I coached for 15 years to Beckley West Virginia, where it's located now.
Speaker B:Not many colleges move locations.
Speaker B:They move 45 minutes to a bigger city.
Speaker B:And I did coach at and Beckley, WVU Tech in Beckley for the last two years I was there, enjoyed both, both places and coached a lot of great players, turned the program around and won a few championships, went to national tournaments.
Speaker B: n to man rotational system in: Speaker B:And so right after that we, we, the story goes, Mike, we could, we were two years in a row.
Speaker B:We were very close to getting to Kansas City to the NAI nationals and we lost two heartbreaking games in regional finals.
Speaker B:And so I started looking around, what can we do differently to get up, put our program over the hump?
Speaker B:And so we looked around.
Speaker B:One thing we looked at was the pack line.
Speaker B:And we were 20 years.
Speaker B:We were rotational man to man system.
Speaker B:And so I went down and visited with Tony Bennett and his staff and we watched him practice one day and lo and behold, the father of the pack line just happened to walk in with golf clubs off the golf course.
Speaker B:Tony's dad, Dick Bennett, who gets credit for inventing the pacline.
Speaker B:And we met him and talked to him and they shared things with us and they shared video clips.
Speaker B:They were nice enough to do that.
Speaker B:And, and then we talked to people like Jim Boone, who's one of the best Pacline people now, teachers of the pack line and different people around the country.
Speaker B:And we studied it all summer and, and then we implemented it and we got better at it as we went along.
Speaker B:We enjoyed teaching the pack line and our, your team defense usually gets better throughout the season.
Speaker B:And it, it helped us maybe win close games.
Speaker B:I don't know, maybe we had better talent.
Speaker B:That's how we got to four national tournaments the next five years.
Speaker B:Or was it the pack line or both?
Speaker A:You know, so probably, probably, probably a combination.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But that's, that was our pack line story.
Speaker B:And then, and then when I came to fork Union, of course I brought the pack line with me because I like the pack line.
Speaker B:So I brought that for me.
Speaker A:So here's a question for you.
Speaker A:So when you change from something that you've done and obviously felt comfortable with and obviously taught for a long time, right?
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're teaching rotational man to man.
Speaker A:You've done that.
Speaker A:You know what you want to do, you know how you want to teach it, you know the drills that you want to use for that.
Speaker A:How long does it take?
Speaker A:You obviously you go down and you know, you're watching camp and you're, you're learning from the Bennett's and you're watching film and all those kinds of things.
Speaker A:How long does it take before you feel you have the grasp on it, that you need to be able to teach it to the same degree of detail that you had previously with your other system?
Speaker A:How long does it take you to feel comfortable?
Speaker A:What's the process for making sure you feel comfortable teaching?
Speaker A:It's one thing to say, hey, I like this, I want to be able to do it.
Speaker A:It's another thing to be able to take that out onto the floor and actually teach your players what they need to know in order to be able to execute it.
Speaker A:So what was that process like?
Speaker B:Well, you know, studying it all off season and then, then implementing it when practice started and, and you know, I, I, my assistant coaches were involved in that too.
Speaker B:So they were studying also and talking to people as well as I was talking to people and in learning it.
Speaker B:And then, you know, there's, there's the ultimate pack line guide.
Speaker B:I don't know how many pages it is, the 50 to 100 pages of notes and clinics and on Pacline and people that have taught it.
Speaker B:And I think Pacline people over the years don't really like to tell people that it's really successful for them.
Speaker B:They kind of kept that a secret.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of people that say their pack line that just means they're in the gaps.
Speaker B:I don't know if they're really committed, but we really committed 100% to the pack line and all the exact principles of the way it was taught by Dick Bennett.
Speaker B:And you know, we've had to tweak some things.
Speaker B:You know, we've, we've tweaked a little like ball coverage, things that we kind of prefer that really weren't with the pack line people.
Speaker B:But, but we are true pack line and, and we're proud of it.
Speaker B:And, and it's really helped us, you know, this, for example, this year we, we held our opponents to 38% from the floor.
Speaker B:And it's hard to, in our philosophy is we want to build a wall around the paint, keep you out of the paint and we want to force you into contested jump shots, as many as possible.
Speaker B:So if we're playing a 40 minute game, you know, we may force a team into 10 more threes than they normally take.
Speaker B:They might make a few more, but over the course of 40 minutes, their percentage usually isn't that high, I think we held people to 28% from three this year, I believe.
Speaker B:And so, which is good.
Speaker B:And, and, and, you know, it's been good for us, you know, it's been good to us.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But that first year, you know, it took a while because it was new, you know, so we, you know, after the first year we really, it, it became easier to teach.
Speaker B:But in the, you know, at the beginning we, we kind of made, we had to make sure we're using the right terminology and teaching the right things.
Speaker B:As the season went on, we got better at it and our team got better at it.
Speaker B:And that first year we went, we broke through and got to the national tournament in Kansas City.
Speaker B:And we had an experienced team too, and a good team.
Speaker B:And, but, but that helped us.
Speaker B:It helps us win close games.
Speaker B:They say pack line helps you win games on the road.
Speaker B:And you're building that wall around the paint because people aren't getting in the paint as much.
Speaker B:You're forcing the next pass on the perimeter.
Speaker B:You got to be great in the gaps.
Speaker B:And we constantly preach, do your job in the gaps, force the next pass, force next pass.
Speaker B:Everything's a closeout.
Speaker B:Great closeouts.
Speaker B:Don't overrun the closeouts.
Speaker B:Keep everything in front of you.
Speaker B:And because we're keeping the ball in the perimeter more, the ball doesn't come in the paint as much.
Speaker B:So therefore we don't foul as much.
Speaker B:I mean, there was countless games this year where we still had, you know, files to give at the end of the game, you know, or the end of the half because we don't follow as much.
Speaker B:And if you don't follow as much, they don't go to the free throw line as much.
Speaker B:So you're trying to take away layups and free throws.
Speaker B:We might give up a few more threes.
Speaker B:We always tell our team we can persevere, those things.
Speaker B:A lot of college coaches are so scared to death to give up a three point shot that they just try to run people off the three because they're running them off.
Speaker B:They now all of a sudden they're in scramble mode and they're going five against four and people are getting layups or foul, there's fouls.
Speaker B:And so we just are complete opposite.
Speaker B:We just, you know, we want to contest threes and not give up rhythm threes and keep people on the perimeter as much as we can.
Speaker B:And then, you know, you're forcing long shots, they're going to equate to long rebounds and you've got to go get Those there's so many things.
Speaker A:It's amazing how whatever strategic decision you make, whether it's something defensively like the pack line or just how you decide to design your offense.
Speaker A:And then I love that detail that you just mentioned, right, where okay, so we're forcing teams to take more long jump shots.
Speaker A:Well, that's going to create more opportunities for long rebounds.
Speaker A:Then we have to talk to our team and teach them, well, okay, what does that look like?
Speaker A:How might that be different if we're allowing teams to get into the paint and get shots where the rebounds maybe not coming off as far.
Speaker A:And so there's all these just subtle details, right, that play off of one decision and then there's more things that sort of pile onto that that you have to be able to then teach your team.
Speaker A:And as you said, as you get into that more and you go through a season with it, you get a handle on, hey, what are the auxiliary things that then go along with this?
Speaker A:And we're doing the main things right?
Speaker A:Then what are the secondary little things that we need to do in order to be able to really maximize?
Speaker A:Whether it's the pack line or whatever other strategy that might want to employ.
Speaker A:I think those, the beauty of basketball is in that major decision then sort of has a trickle down effect of what are the next things, what are the small fundamentals, what are the small details that we have to teach in order to really maximize what it is that we're trying to do.
Speaker A:And I'm sure that's what you found over the course of your career.
Speaker B:And you know, I'm not saying pack lines is the best thing to do.
Speaker B:And it's got to be something that you believe in.
Speaker B:And you as a coach, you gotta do what you feel is best for your program and what's, and what's best for you suited for you and how you like to play.
Speaker B:And there, you know, there's a lot of different ways to get to success.
Speaker B:You know, whether it's pressing, matchup zone, traditional man, denial, man, you know, people don't, you don't see people denying as much as they used to, but there's still teams that do it and then, or pack line, you know, there's a lot of different ways defensively and then there's a lot of different ways offensively as well.
Speaker A:How much did you know about Fork Union before you went there?
Speaker B:Oh, I knew a lot about Fork Union because when I was at West Virginia Tech in Glenville, you know, I tried to recruit Fork Union players and the the great Fletcher Eric was the coach at Fork Union Military academy for almost 50 years.
Speaker B:And coach Eric became a friend of mine and he was friends with every college coach and he was from West Virginia and West Virginia Tech was located in Fayette county, and that's where Fletcher Eric was from Fayette County.
Speaker B:And he brought a lot of West Virginia boys down to Fork Union, Virginia over the years and, and sent them to places like, you know, West Virginia and Marshall and a lot of great players throughout the years from West Virginia that went to Fork Union because of Fletcher Errett.
Speaker B:So I, I always admired Fletcher Errat and talked to him a lot on the phone.
Speaker B:He would call me up and say, bob, it's Fletch down at Fork Union.
Speaker B:And we talk about players and he's, you know, he's telling me about players and, and great man to know.
Speaker B:I'm still good friends with his brother John Eric and Fletcher's.
Speaker B:His nephew Frank Aaron is, is our post grad football coach here and Frank is from Fayetteville, West Virginia.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of West Virginia ties to.
Speaker B:And there's more than that.
Speaker B:There's a lot of West Virginia ties to Fork Union.
Speaker B:Now in.
Speaker B: prisingly semi retired in, in: Speaker B:Our.
Speaker B:Our last West Virginia Tech team was 30 and five and we had two all Americans on the team.
Speaker B:We were ranked number three in the, in the nation in the NAI and, and we went to nationals.
Speaker B:We got upset in the Sweet 16.
Speaker B:A team, a local team out there, we were out in South Dakota and a team from one of the neighboring states hit or Iowa.
Speaker B:Iowa hit 23s on our pack line defense and just got caught on fire.
Speaker B:It didn't matter how deep they were, you had a hand in their face.
Speaker B:It was going in one of those nights and, and then the next year the NAI was going to.
Speaker B:We were Division 2 and I, and the NAI was going back to one division and I was like, oh, this might be the last chance I had the legitimate national title at West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:And you know, I was going through a divorce at the time and, and I just go out and just thinking about life in general.
Speaker B:I had been there for 17 years and the school just moved two years earlier.
Speaker B:And I was commuting from Charleston, West Virginia over an hour each day and I just said, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna retire from Tech.
Speaker B:And you know, people are very surprised and my family tried to talk me out of it and the athletic director, Kenny Howell, did as well and great people at West Virginia Tech but you know, I'm indebted to them and I loved coaching there every minute of it and we had a lot of success and made a lot of friends and, and it coached a lot of great players and had a lot of assistant coaches that were great there and a lot of them are moved out and to Division 1 ranks now.
Speaker B:And it's amazing once you get older then you start getting coaches in your family tree that, your coaching tree that move on and make you proud and you follow them and, and as we were, as we're taping this tonight, I had one eye on the, the Navy basketball game against the championship game against American tonight and Jared Marino played for me at West Virginia Tech and he's, he's an assistant coach at Navy now.
Speaker B:He's like a son to me and very close with him and you know, when he's, he comes to me with, and asks me for advice on things and some of your former players that go into coaching, they'll do that or your former assistants and he's got a great career and he ended up, he was a three year starter and started out as a walk on at West Virginia Tech and ended up scoring a thousand points, was two year captain and led us to our first NAI national tournament and, and he was an engineer at West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:And then his last year when he graduated he, he decided to help us as a student assistant and he just fell in love with the game and said the heck with engineering, I'm going into coaching.
Speaker B:And, and he's been at Radford and Lewisburg College and Navy and it has done a great job and he's got a real good future and will probably be a future Division 1 head coach.
Speaker B:And so people like that, you know, you start as you get older, you start mentoring others and I didn't really see that coming.
Speaker B:You know, you never thought about when you were younger, starting out that eventually you're going to be a mentor of people.
Speaker B: o I, I got out of the game in: Speaker B:Maybe I'll go into athletic administration, I'll take a little time off.
Speaker B: But in: Speaker B:And the Summer of Bob was just traveling around, hanging out with friends and, and being Happy, go lucky.
Speaker B:Not worrying about the next season.
Speaker B:You know, it was really different and not having a team and, and I enjoyed it and, and then as time went on, so I started to miss it.
Speaker B:You know, once basketball season came, I was like, wow, I don't have a team, this is weird.
Speaker B:And so I started to miss it and I said, well, I got two kids, one in high school and one in college.
Speaker B:I gotta really go back to work.
Speaker B:So, you know, I was about to go back to work and then working for the state parks in West Virginia and then, then Covid hit, you know, so that job, no, I never even worked today because Covid hit right when I was about to work for the state park system.
Speaker B:And, and then so I ended up being two years out from basketball and that's when I had interviewed at Ithaca for the head coaching or I was involved with the Ithaca job and then interviewed for a couple other jobs.
Speaker B:And you know, now I'm, I'm in my 50s, you know, and not, not as appealing as, as a coach to probably some administrations of small colleges.
Speaker B: , the Fork Union opened up in: Speaker B:I jumped all over that.
Speaker B:I said that because I really was looking for, to do something different.
Speaker B:I had already rebuilt programs at Glenville and West Virginia Tech and I didn't really want a small college rebuild again.
Speaker B:I either wanted to be a Division 1 assistant or Division 1 advisor or I mean in all those two years I was out, I still trained kids on the side.
Speaker B:So I stayed fresh teaching and training kids and then, and then going to games and my son was at Marshall one of those years as a walk on.
Speaker B:So I would go over and watch Marshall practice and play and, and go to different games and.
Speaker B:Anyways, and then so when Fork Union opened up, I said, wow, that's something.
Speaker B:I think I would like something different.
Speaker B:You know, where you have this one team for a year and you, you have to recruit and you have scholarships and you have to place them.
Speaker B:And so I said, well, I could utilize my contacts in college coaching to help these kids.
Speaker B:And, and I, and I really fell in love with it.
Speaker B:And I, I've just finished my fourth season at Fork Union and, and I was blessed to come here and thank the good Lord for sending me to Fork Union and, and, and being able to get back into coaching again, which I love.
Speaker B:And, and it kind of rejuvenated me and it took after two years off of having a team, I was a little rusty.
Speaker B:It was, you know, coaching at first and I would forget Some terminology and then now I got it all back, back down.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And I've enjoyed it.
Speaker B:I've enjoyed.
Speaker B:I love the player development side of basketball.
Speaker B:So it was a good fit for me where you know, we really push our guys hard in the weight room and and then we, we try to teach them how to play the right way playing off two feet and we try to play as a team and we try to look like a college team.
Speaker B:We run our program, our practices the same way we ran them at West Virginia Tech and a lot of the same drills we brought the pack line with us.
Speaker B:That's helped us be successful.
Speaker B:In our.
Speaker B:Our first year at Fork Union we won 27 games and we were number.
Speaker B:Ranked as high as number three in the country and went to the nationals and beats some really good teams like Brewster Academy and IMG and Hargrave and St.
Speaker B:Thomas Moore and had some great wins that first year and Word of God.
Speaker B:And then now it put me in a different circle of people meeting different coaches and I've had to.
Speaker B:I had to learn how does this prep school thing work and how does the recruiting work and how does it work with promoting players and all that.
Speaker B:So I've had to get better at that after the first year and, and then we've had some players now right now we have 13 players for CUNY has 13 players in.
Speaker B:In division one right now rosters and and we.
Speaker B:We've the last two years we.
Speaker B:Or yeah the last two seasons we put eight guys in division one and then in countless.
Speaker B:In division two and three and NAI in junior college and, and it's been very rewarding.
Speaker B:Fork Union has a great tradition.
Speaker B:Fletcher Eric, you know he coached guys that went to Kentucky and North Carolina and great play Florida and Virginia.
Speaker B:Virginia attack him.
Speaker B:Yeah just great players.
Speaker B: s and early: Speaker B:They don't have to have the test score now.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But we're still getting good play, very good players.
Speaker B:You know we're.
Speaker B:We get kids here that I, I couldn't have got at West Virginia Tech.
Speaker B:Freshmen.
Speaker B:You know this good.
Speaker B:And then for Union's tradition is unbelievable.
Speaker B:Over 400 to Division 1 and, and 13 have gone out to the NBA and from.
Speaker B:From our program over the years and even more impressive in football, 130 to the NFL and two Heisman Trophy winners went to school here and Kevin Plank, the founder of Under Armour, went to school here.
Speaker B:And you know, some Supreme Court justices, sons have gone here and Secret Service and President Bush's chief of staff son and just, it's an impressive place to be from and you know, for Cunion is highly respected.
Speaker A:What do you think is the key?
Speaker A:Because obviously for you being on the college head coach side of the recruiting process, you're looking at it in one way.
Speaker A:Now, as the coach at Fork Union, you're on the other side of it, trying to help your players find the right fit for them at the college level.
Speaker A:What's the most important part or what's the key thing that you have to do in your role as the head coach at Fork Union to help your players to be able to get those opportunities at the next level?
Speaker B:Well, we do tell our players this, that even though they were all stars at their high schools and so these are post grads that we're coaching guys that maybe were, aren't satisfied with their offers or they need to get stronger for a year, or they were, for whatever reason they wanted to do a prep year to get more exposure in a different area.
Speaker B:And, and so we, we really try to convince them that let's play team basketball.
Speaker B:I know you're here really for an individual reason because you're trying to move on to and showcase your skills to get to the next level.
Speaker B:But college coaches don't ever call me up and say, how much, how many points a game is this guy average?
Speaker B:You know, they might call me up and say, what's his three point shooting percentage?
Speaker B:Or how many rebounds is he getting?
Speaker B:No one ever asked what's he scoring?
Speaker B:Because everybody at this level can play.
Speaker B:So they're going to see that everybody can play because colleges will come and watch us practice in September.
Speaker B:Then they'll be following our, our team and our league, the elite Prep League, which is an outstanding league in its third year.
Speaker B:And so our guys are going to gain exposure.
Speaker B:And just the name Fork Union helps our players gain exposure.
Speaker B:But we try to convince them that it, the more you win, the more phone calls we're going to get.
Speaker B:And it's, it's factual.
Speaker B:We've found that to be true in that when our team is successful.
Speaker B:So we struggled a little bit this year early on and then started hitting our stride and played really well.
Speaker B:We end up winning 25 games this year.
Speaker B:It was a decent season.
Speaker B:You know, we didn't get to the nationals, but it's probably because we didn't play well in November up in New England and.
Speaker B:But we got better and we beat Perky Omen who went to the nationals, and we beat Hargrave who went to the nationals.
Speaker B:We beat Massanutton who went to the nationals, and we beat some good teams in January and February and, and really improved.
Speaker B:And that's nice to see players improve.
Speaker B:Individually, I enjoy that.
Speaker B:And it's nice.
Speaker B:And obviously our team improved.
Speaker B:And so when we were going through that stretch of winning some games in January and February, you know, people started taking notice.
Speaker B:College coaches and, and, and you know, the whole recruiting world is, is way different than it used to be, Mike.
Speaker B:You know that and.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:So, like division twos are just blowing me up right now because they're just kind of starting out recruiting and division ones, of course they have roster management now between now and time their season starts.
Speaker B:And so it seems like it's gone later and later.
Speaker B:Like we've always fork unions players have always got late offers.
Speaker B:Traditionally we had one Division 1 offer on our team in the fall and then we, we thought, well, maybe three or four guys can get Division 1 in the end and the rest can go D2 or 3.
Speaker B:And it's gone even later.
Speaker B:It seems like this year because.
Speaker B:And you're seeing it if you just.
Speaker B:If you keep an eye on Internet, you see people, everybody's jumping in the portals when their season ends.
Speaker B:Almost, you know, a third of the team or half of a team, college team, D2 and D1 jumps in the portal now.
Speaker B:And so they have holes to fill.
Speaker B:The good thing for our players is our guys have been seen in New England.
Speaker B:They've been seen down in Florida at IMG event.
Speaker B:They've been seen in, in the Carolinas, they've been seen in Maryland.
Speaker B:They've been seen in all the elite prep league stops in our, in our league footprint in January and February.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And then they get tons of exposure on the Internet and they get great film too.
Speaker B:You know, with almost 40 games they get.
Speaker B:They do get great film.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And so now, you know, people have heard of our players and our, obviously our program.
Speaker B:And so now they're looking around the country and seeing who's available and seeing what they got to fill and who's.
Speaker B:And more.
Speaker B:First they got to find out who's leaving their program.
Speaker B:And so it's just upside down, you know, the way everything is with the portal and, and kids and pay for play now too.
Speaker B:So, you know, we have some players that you know, and we've had success too, so it's helped us.
Speaker B:Last year we had a really good team.
Speaker B: in: Speaker B:Went to the national tournament and our, our point guard, Jaden Johnson is the starting point guard at Old Dominion this year and it hardly came off the court as a freshman.
Speaker B: reat story because he came in: Speaker B: hen he left Fork Union it was: Speaker B: And now he's: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:He's got a great future and a chance to make some money playing the game while he's in college, you know, and just it's a different world now and then.
Speaker B:We've also had some players like Carmelo Pacheco, surprisingly didn't get division one two years ago, goes to UVA wise, averages double figures and shoots 40 something percent from three the year later.
Speaker B:Everybody's blowing him up and wants him.
Speaker B:He's got like 10 D1 offers but no D1 offers.
Speaker B:Eight months earlier and now he's starting two guard at Mount St.
Speaker B:Mary's and they're having a heck of a season under Donnie Lynn is in his first year and so it's, it's pretty neat though to see the guys once they get into college.
Speaker B:You know, we told our team when we lost our last game last week and we've, we've got, I got some really good assistants.
Speaker B:Bobby Lakes, a long time high school coach in the DMV area and he helps me out and does a great job.
Speaker B:He's my recruiting coordinator, especially in the dmv.
Speaker B:And then, and Gary Hines is a, is a legendary Fork Union guy.
Speaker B:Played at Fork Union for Fletcher Aaron and played at Marshall and he told the team after the last game that, you know, one of the great things for being a coach at Fortuna is to follow you guys now, follow your career and be fans of you guys.
Speaker B:You know, we enjoyed coaching you guys and then now we will enjoy following your college careers and your lives and, and we're here to assist you in any way you, you need assistance and, and so that that's been enjoyable and rewarding for me.
Speaker B:Recruiting, you know, we've been recruiting very hard for next year's team already and we're also working very hard to get these guys placed and talking to college coaches all day long to try to get them to the next level.
Speaker B:And on top of that, Mike, I'm the director of financial aid at fork union military academy.
Speaker B:That's my other job.
Speaker B:So this is a busy time.
Speaker B:So it's been really busy lately.
Speaker B:And they keep you busy at these military academies, that's for sure.
Speaker A:There's no doubt about that.
Speaker A:And for sure that the way the recruiting and the way the landscape of college basketball has changed, everybody on both sides of the equation has had to adjust.
Speaker A:College coaches obviously have had to make a huge adjustment in how they go about building their rosters.
Speaker A:And guys like you with the prep school level and certainly high school coaches have had to adapt and adjust the way that they approach the recruiting with their players and trying to help those guys get an opportunity at the next level because clearly the landscape is completely different from from what it used to be.
Speaker A:Before we get out, Bob, I want to give you a chance to share.
Speaker A:How can people find out more about your program, connect with you, whether you want to share, Email, social media, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.
Speaker A:And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For union.com our website, forcunion.com to learn about our school.
Speaker B:It's an outstanding website.
Speaker B:It's an outstanding school.
Speaker B:Boys military Christian boarding school for grades 7 through 12.
Speaker B:And then plus post grad sports and all the regular high school sports.
Speaker B:And then I'm on X the former Twitter.
Speaker B:I think it's coach Bob will at Coach Bob will.
Speaker B:Coach Bob will and w I o l and I'm on there all the time.
Speaker B:Somebody wants to reach me and send me a message and a follow and love to help anybody out that I can in coaching or looking at players and helping players as well.
Speaker B:But I appreciate you having me on here, Mike.
Speaker B:I've enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker A:We enjoyed it.
Speaker A:Bob, I'm so appreciative that you took the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.
Speaker A:And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.
Speaker A:Thanks.
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Speaker B:Thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast presented by Head Start Basketball.
