In this Mobility Redefined bonus episode, recorded live at the UITP Global Public Transport Summit in Hamburg 2025, four public transport leaders share their experiences in advancing sustainability within their cities. Hosted by Dr Kaan Yildizgöz, the discussion moves beyond environmental concerns to cover funding resilience, workforce transformation, and inclusive mobility.

Panellists:

Dalene Campbell, Executive Director, City of Cape Town, South Africa

Vesa Silfver, Executive Director, HSL Helsinki, Finland

Tom Page, General Manager of DLR, Transport for London, UK

Ulf Middelberg, CEO, LVB, Germany

Host: Dr Kaan Yildizgoz

Key themes explored include post-COVID ridership recovery, lifecycle cost planning, the role of people in sustainable transitions, and the careful balance between automation and employment. This is essential listening for public transport leaders seeking pragmatic strategies to build greener, more resilient urban mobility systems.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:58 Setting the Stage: Sustainability in Mobility

02:01 Panellist Introductions

02:54 Shared Mobility and Electric Buses

06:03 Decarbonisation Efforts in London

08:13 People and Sustainability

13:51 Workforce vs. Automation

19:36 Post-COVID Ridership and Trust

24:46 Funding and Financial Sustainability

33:32 Transitioning Informal Transport to Organised Systems

38:21 Conclusion and Closing Remarks

Connect with Us:

Website: https://mobilityredefined.com

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Mobility Redefined is brought to you by Modaxo https://www.modaxo.com

Producer: Mike Cartmel

Executive Producer: Darren Turpin

Special thanks to:

Brand design: Tina Olagundoye

Digital Media: Belén Iturrioz Campo

Marketing content and Mobility Redefined newsletter: Mike Cartmel

If you have a question or comment, email us at mike.cartmel@modaxo.com

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Modaxo Inc., its affiliates or subsidiaries, or any entities they represent (“Modaxo”). This production belongs to Modaxo, and may contain information that may be subject to trademark, copyright, or other intellectual property rights and restrictions. This production provides general information, and should not be relied on as legal advice or opinion. Modaxo specifically disclaims all warranties, express or implied, and will not be liable for any losses, claims, or damages arising from the use of this presentation, from any material contained in it, or from any action or decision taken in response to it.

[00:00:04] Kaan: Thank you for listening to Mobility Redefined, brought to you by Modaxo. For more insights and information, please visit mobilityredefined. com. That is mobilityredefined. com.

[00:00:45] Kaan Yildizgoz: I'm looking at my boss to tell me. So is it okay now? That's great. Is it good? Okay, perfect. So apologies for our neighbours for next 45 minutes for some sound, but you can always join us for this round table.

Setting the Stage: Sustainability in Mobility

[00:01:04] Kaan Yildizgoz: From different countries over the world. Joining me for this afternoon session, what are we going to discuss? At this afternoon session, we will be discussing about how to redefine, how to re-approach the sustainability in mobility. it's the main discussion. Many years we were approaching the sustainability from the environmental perspective, but today we will talk about environment, but it won't be only about environment.

[00:01:48] Kaan Yildizgoz: It's being offered by one of Modaxo companies, Binary brought from Italy. So enjoy your, wine and cheese except from the speakers. It's it. It'll be served for them. After the session. Show your a water [00:02:00] please.

Panelist Introductions

[00:02:11] Kaan Yildizgoz: Ulf? Yeah. Perfect. And I have Dalene executive director of City of Cape Town. I have Tom, who is general manager of Dockland Light Rail from Transport for London. And I have Vesa who is executive director of Helsinki. HSL and before I start, these panels are being organized in collaboration with EBRD, European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and GIZ Germany.

[00:02:54] Kaan Yildizgoz: A

Shared Mobility and Electric Buses

[00:03:14] Kaan Yildizgoz: How this work and what are the results of.

[00:03:44] Ulf Middelberg: Winning more customers, innovate for higher productivity, and so just find a way to sustainable finance because it's the mixture of productivity and market revenues, which will help us in the future. [00:04:00]

[00:04:11] Kaan Yildizgoz: I want to ask to the Vesa, because there is an interesting target in Helsinki that they are aiming to have 50% of bus trips by electric by end of this year. So Vesa, where are you with this target and how you are planning to achieve this ambitious target?

[00:04:31] Vesa Silfver: so we will be aiming at getting, by 2028, 70% of our bus fleet already electric. And, looking at what enabled it, I have been only with housing, regional transport for one year so far, so I cannot take the credit for this. But,the Helsinki colleagues were forerunners in adopting EVs and at that point the technology wasn't so mature towards, in 2020, 15, 16, 17.

[00:05:27] Vesa Silfver: And if you are asking for enablers, actually cheap energy is, pivotal. And we are one of the few countries in Europe that has been building nuclear power. In the last years we just launched one, one factory. So you need to have both the stable energy and then the seasonal green,renewable energy.

[00:05:56] Kaan Yildizgoz: That's great to hear this ambitious plan and which was already [00:06:00] achieved almost and let's see how it'll move for the next years.

Decarbonisation Efforts in London

[00:06:05] Kaan Yildizgoz: Question Mark, in my mind is, there is a global concern about decarbonisation in recent years, and I want to ask to Tom here, how do you see this from the perspective of London? Is it slowing down this ambition on decarbonisation Tom?

[00:06:24] Tom Page: I definitely think there's a change in some of the language that's used around the world and in some places some open hostility towards. Decarbonizing. I serve at the pleasure of the Mayor of London and the mayor of London is very clear and committed on decarbonisation and TFL. I'm very proud of the fact that TFL is also that.

[00:06:59] Tom Page: That's being [00:07:00] specifically built for, specifically procured for London to use. It's a real positive for us. We've also got a corporate environment plan that's really clear and focused on what needs to happen, but it's not inputs based, it's outcomes, it's what we need to achieve. so it leaves lots of space for innovation in the supply chain.

[00:07:39] Tom Page: We're not importing oil from countries that sometimes aren't always the most reliable ally, but we're making it in the uk. Well that's sign to talk a language that people can get on board with. So I think it doesn't change what we're doing, but I think we can talk about it in a way that is more universally acceptable and builds that consensus.

[00:07:59] Kaan Yildizgoz: [00:08:00] I think it's very great. And when we were talking, I mean with Tom, recently, we were also discussing that electrification or decarbonisation is not about just the technology, it's not about just the vehicles or equipments.

People and Sustainability

[00:08:27] Dalene Campbell: Yes. I feel like the poor cousin here,we, are only basically starting our process now.

[00:09:01] Dalene Campbell: And then secondly, we've just awarded our first tender for. Only 70, sorry, of lot like the thousands, but for 70. But you have to, start somewhere. for us, the biggest thing is that, we have, and that is actually very different from European,countries as well US et cetera, is that we don't have, too little people to work.

[00:09:49] Dalene Campbell: And, it's actually very exciting. we have a private company, golden Arrow Bus Services also in Cape Town, and they have their first. Delivery of their [00:10:00] first 50, buses already. They've got an academy, where they also trained in the bus drivers in terms of, how to drive an electric bus because it's quite different as well.

[00:10:41] Dalene Campbell: And it is quite something to actually, for them to understand. Than,the going over to electric. why not diesel? It's much easier. It's much for, in their minds it's much cheaper. But, although the due to the import tax, on vehicles in South Africa, electrical [00:11:00] buses are much more expensive to buy.

[00:11:15] Kaan Yildizgoz: I think when we talk about the decarbonisation, it's, we can all agree that the bus transport is one of the most important one because bus transport is responsible for 83% of the public transport trips in our cities.

[00:11:45] Kaan Yildizgoz: Do you know how many people work for public transport in the world? Any idea that you may have? So let me tell. In this case, it's around 13 million people. works globally for public transport. For aviation, it's around 12 [00:12:00] million, aviation sector. It's around, 12 million,work. And it's not about because of the numbers, but because of the quality and importance, we are discussing a lot about the stuff.

[00:12:25] Ulf Middleberg: If I was talking about Applied digital tools, applied ai, I'm very happy to hear you Dalene talking about training because that's the core to me to have like innovation islands, people who are motivated to innovate by themselves.

So people don't put their sorrow and their fear in front of innovation, but try to work with it in a secured area. So that's always step by step on the one hand side and in the innovation islands with much more speed. If it comes to ai, we have some experts if it comes to coding, we have some experts and we have less experts because they are coding with ai.

So that's speed. And we try to work with our workers' councils as well, just as cooperative as we can.

Workforce vs. Automation

[00:14:08] Kaan Yildizgoz: And Tom, this question goes to you. how do you see the balance between workforce and the automation for the future?

[00:14:29] Tom Page: So it's very hard to fill jobs, working at stations, working as cleaners, working as bus drivers. So they have turned to robotic. Now, like Delene, we, we don't really have that problem in the UK at the moment. Maybe we'll get there, who knows? But we don't have it today. So what problem are we trying to solve?

[00:15:11] Tom Page: And if a company makes you feel that way, that's not a great sign. So to me, like again, what problem are we trying to solve? When we look at the maintenance side, there are plenty of jobs that are quite dangerous and quite challenging, and they've been done in the same way for a long time. So I really agree with you.

[00:15:44] Tom Page: Singapore has that as well, but so does Budapest on its line three Metro. So again, we are looking at can we do that? That's somewhere where it could actually provide a specific benefit for people. But just taking people out because we could take people out doesn't necessarily mean it provides the best service for [00:16:00] customers.

[00:16:06] Kaan Yildizgoz: I think it's, we have also somehow like a dilemma here, because I remember around 10, 15 years ago, I was advisor to City of Joburg, Johannesburg, and. One of the main objective at this time was linking job creation with the public transport.

[00:16:35] Dalene Campbell: First of all, I, I think I must start off to say that, we are not ready for robotics.

[00:17:05] Dalene Campbell: I actually, sometimes say that it's for me as a person, it's very sad that I become desensitized if somebody's killed one of the, the bosses are killed because I've met with him yesterday. Today, he's killed somebody else I must meet with tomorrow. So, to. robotics and, bringing that skills into our,

[00:17:48] Dalene Campbell: but, What we are, doing, a lot is in the project that we are building now, the ity BRT Phase two A, we are very involved with the community and, [00:18:00] bringing them on board into the projects and we are actually expanding a lot of the. The funding that we are using during the construction to actually, get people educated in terms of what is public transport, how do you use public transport?

[00:18:40] Dalene Campbell: You do need absolutely the laborers on the ground to actually do the work. and, we've got something that you call the construction Mafia. which Cape Town as. Got an absolutely no go policy. Ulf so we refuse to, actually bend to them and, [00:19:00] but our lives are being threatened because of it.

[00:19:13] Kaan Yildizgoz: You are,I agree what you say, especially from the South African perspective and many powers of the world. Certainly. And I was listening, one of the speech of the keynote speaker of exclusive breakfast organized by Modaxo tomorrow morning.

Post-COVID Ridership and Trust

[00:19:56] Kaan Yildizgoz: So what are you doing? as [00:20:00] HSL.to get people on board again to ensure their loyalty to you and they trust you as well.

[00:20:18] Vesa Silfver: To give you perspective,

[00:20:29] Dalene Campbell: in terms of the rail, 0%. But, in terms of my city, which is the bus company that we, are running the BRT, is that we are way above,pre COVID, numbers.

[00:20:55] Kaan Yildizgoz: Ulf 110%. Oh, okay. So we, our [00:21:00] average is around a hundred percent in comparison. it's a good. Back to you Vesa. Back to you Vesa.

[00:21:10] Vesa Silfver: So in our region of 1.5 million people, we have about 50% of knowledge workers. I. And about 50% of the work, every day, working time, they work, remotely. So, so from that you can calculate that the region has been growing and we, have taken, won the trust back, but their mobility patterns have changed.

[00:21:51] Vesa Silfver: And actually some of the products that we had, like ticket products, weren't sufficient for the knowledge workers who are doing hybrid [00:22:00] work. We reintroduced, for example, the 10 times ticket. For the, remote workers or hybrid workers, and it became success immediately. So we need to, go back to the data and actually start looking at what are the hidden needs of people for mobility.

[00:22:40] Vesa Silfver: So the, region was increasing by 25% use of cars, 33%. And that's before we get the autonomous vehicles running empty on the streets. So actually, if it's about the ease of travel, the speed of travel, and the course of travel. We have to become a lot better [00:23:00] in understanding every individual's needs for travel.

[00:23:31] Vesa Silfver: But once we start using it, then we actually can connect people with different modes more reliably than private car to their destination. So there is the key and running, of course the efficiency. So on the supply side we have the. Classical way of planning the routes in a static way. But I believe in the future we will become more dynamic.

[00:24:15] Kaan Yildizgoz: I think it's a very good point.

[00:24:36] Kaan Yildizgoz: So it's more focusing on technology innovations and trends where we will also deep dive in terms of the data and the technology. It can be very good that to, to welcome you again, at tomorrow afternoon.

Funding and Financial Sustainability

[00:24:57] Kaan Yildizgoz: When we discussed about the funding in public transport, we were [00:25:00] saying. Cost coverage ratio for the buses are around 50% now. What we see from the different cities, it's even going down, than how it was before. COVID-19. And my question is, maybe we can start with Tom on this one here. The funding is a critical concern, certainly.

[00:25:26] Tom Page: I could make this really quick. No. Um,I'll give you a little bit more. no, but I think there are some things that we can look at and share that work.

[00:25:59] Tom Page: So, I'll give you an [00:26:00] example. We did a big capital project in, 2008 to 2022. It was a big new railway,called Crossrail when it was being built and now known as the Elizabeth Line. for those who haven't seen it, it's a bit like an RER line in Paris.

[00:26:38] Tom Page: fares and it's a bit funded by national government and it's a bit funded by property developers and a bit funded by additional tax and a bit funded by local government, which is exactly what we did do. Then everyone's pound or dollar or rand or Euro is leveraging lots of other people's pounds or dollars or rounds or euros.

[00:27:15] Tom Page: The more different funding streams, not necessarily equal amounts, but the more different funding streams the better. And we have in transport for London, we have a.I'm rounding, but about 6 billion euros. a year of fares revenue. But we're also getting about 3 billion euros through a somewhat complicated grant from central government.

[00:27:48] Kaan Yildizgoz: Tom, is it public data that you can share with us your cost coverage ratio for the buses, for example, in London?

[00:28:01] Kaan Yildizgoz: How is it in Helsinki or Leipzig?

Uh.

if you look at the network as its whole Tram and bus Network, it, we started with, 75%, but we're right down below 50 because we have this huge pricing decrease in the Deutsche Land ticket, a flat rate ticket, which is very cheap. And we, of course,we, got subsidies for it, but it changed our ratio.

Significantly. And if it comes to me, a customer, are people paying for quality and services and we are reduced to focusing on people who have no alternative. That's a social part of our job. But if you are due to.convince people with good quality. We have to talk about customers. It's not all social security, but it's attractive and good services.

[00:29:07] Kaan Yildizgoz: Yeah. Ul, when you are talking, let me continue with you because Tom, when you were expanding. Answering my question. You mentioned about the partnerships and coalitions because there's a good example that you are doing in Leipzig with other cities in, with Dresden and so on, called Sumo in terms of collaborating with them in terms of some procurement and so on, to reduce your costs.

Okay, but that's not the revenue side of funding, but it's the cost side where we do a lot about productivity and efficiency, and we learn so much from other cities in. In, Saxony and,in these days we're working on a training program for driver's efficiency save and energy.

And we're buying the software together. We're developing the training programs together with different cities. So that's, efficient.

[00:30:13] Kaan Yildizgoz: So it was,it, it was the main thinking when I was asking this question to you, and then maybe I can shift to Vesa here. so lifecycle cost management is also very vital, when we are considering,our operations in public transport. And how is HSL applying this to ensure long-term sustainability in Helsinki?

[00:30:35] Kaan Yildizgoz: here. By the way,

[00:30:51] Vesa Silfver: So, for us, we actually include in our operations the infrastructure cost. So, so we have already one fourth [00:31:00] of, HSL, cost is infrastructure cost, and it's running, in a such a way that over 40 years lifecycle all of the original infrastructure investment runs through our system. But if the political decision makers forget this, they start thinking, oh my God, this becomes, terribly expensive.

[00:31:58] Vesa Silfver: And of course, if you're [00:32:00] investing in an empty field, you can expect that you get the ticketing income. At a later stage, I actually live in such an area, so I have a personal firsthand experience having a metro subway station in the middle of nowhere. but then, if you think from the total cost of ownership perspective, you can make decisions also as a PTA and as a procurer in a different way.

[00:32:52] Vesa Silfver: About the age of repair and, I'm, right now we call it, making the, [00:33:00] simple model for decision makers of the problem we have at hand. I don't know the English phrase, phrase for it, but like, We are modeling the big issue in the system right now. So that's why I said that's a hard question and I don't have the exact answer.

Transitioning Informal Transport to Organized Systems

[00:33:55] Dalene Campbell: Okay, thank you very much. what we in Cape Town are doing, it's basically [00:34:00] two models. The first model is we, according to our National Land Transport Act, our paratransit where we want to implement, BRT Paratransit operators must form part of the businesses. That's running that. So at the moment we've got four, what we call vehicle operating companies of which three of, are run by a, previous.

[00:34:52] Dalene Campbell: The first. One is that we will want to organize it. Although they're supposed to have a legal operating [00:35:00] license, we want to show them that they can run better because the way that they run at the moment is that they wait until a vehicle are full and then they go off the driver is not always the owner of the vehicle, so he doesn't get a salary.

[00:35:48] Dalene Campbell: And they all say to us. Oops. We never knew our business. So what we did then is to actually use our experts within the, department itself to assist them to [00:36:00] schedule services so that they don't wait for passengers anymore. They take the passengers as soon as it's time. secondly, that drivers don't.

[00:37:00] Dalene Campbell: in future. So the whole idea is as,the other vehicles aged, they will then buy new vehicles. So where they had, 18 vehicles, they only need 13 vehicles. They saved on fuel because they now understand that, they don't have to chase, they don't to,go through all of that. so the two, pilot projects.

[00:37:55] Dalene Campbell: and just finally, the only difficulty at [00:38:00] this stage is that is as soon as we corporatize them and they, in a, company, they have to pay tax and they don't want to pay tax. It's a multi-billion rent. industry who does not wanna pay tax. but we'll get there one day.

Conclusion and Closing Remarks

[00:38:23] Kaan Yildizgoz: Actually, it was a great discussion. We had an opportunity to discuss about various topics just in 45 minutes. By the way, we touch the technology, the people transition, decarbonisation. Multiple aspects on demand mobility. Many thanks to all of you who were joining, joining us, and also many thanks to all our listeners.

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much.