Stress is created from the mind, not from the outside world. If that’s true, how can we stop listening to the unhelpful stories our minds tell us?

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FrogFest Virtual – The Boundary Hunters
Tuesday 25th November

Stress is a response to a situation, not the situation itself.

So if you are stressed out, that's your mind playing out a story that

you are choosing to watch, like a scary film or a tense drama.

At least that's how this week's guest approaches stress.

This week, Gilles P Croft makes his fifth appearance on You Are Not a Frog to talk

about the mind and the way it shapes the way we respond in all sorts of situations.

Now, no one likes being told that our experiences are all in the mind,

especially when we're working in a very strained and stress system and

we're trying to care for our patients whilst do the best for our colleagues

and balance our own wellbeing.

So I really wanted to push Giles on some of the practical

aspects of his point of view.

And if you've heard our other episodes with John C Parkin, you'll

know that I'm a big fan of saying f it in stressful situations.

But Giles takes a different tack, and invites us to see that stress

isn't something we experience from the outside world, but it's

a reaction to our own thinking.

Now, Giles is a former surgeon and he takes a very specific

view on how to manage stress.

One that not everybody will agree with, but it's definitely worth considering.

So listen to find out if you agree with him or if you don't, and email

me at hello@youarenotafrog.com.

And let me know what landed with you and what didn't.

So now take a few moments for yourself and enjoy my conversation

with Dr. Giles P Croft.

If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling

stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.

I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

I'm Giles P Croft.

I'm a former NHS doctor, who now, um, is a writer, a speaker, and,

a coach and workshop facilitator.

it is wonderful to have you back again on the podcast, Giles.

I mean, how many times have you been on?

Is number five.

Have I got the record yet?

Ooh.

I don't know.

You may have, you're, you're up there.

You're definitely up there.

And Giles, it's, I wanted to get you back, several reasons, but one of

the reasons is when we're talking to people about, you know, how to have a

job in which they thrive, how to work happier, how to beat burnout, there

are plenty of objections that come up.

You know, if I don't do it, who else will being, being one of them.

And we'll get to those later.

And I think in a lot of these issues of resilience and thriving

at work, it's really good to look at things from different

viewpoints and different aspects.

So firstly, why do you think your viewpoint is, is different

from many other people's?

Well, for me, the, biggest leverage point going is to better understand the nature

of the experience that we're having.

Because when it all boils down to it, an experience is all we get.

You are like moment to moment, an experience like you and I are having

an experience of this podcast.

And to really have a better understanding of.

How that experience is put together means that we can really,

we can really work with it.

We can, we don't, we don't have to find it.

I've been thinking quite a lot recently about the old Buddhist, I think sort

of, um, saying, or proverb is not really a proverb, just the, the analogy of

taking that second arrow about like something happens, which is bad enough.

Say you, I've got a can of coke next to me, spill a can of coke all over my lap.

Right?

Okay.

So that, that's bad enough in itself.

I'm wet and I'm cold.

But then the second arrow would be like getting really upset about being wet and

cold and, you know, being really cross about the fact that I've stained my nice

white t-shirt and all that sort of thing.

So we are adding layers of suffering onto what's already happening,

um, and creating more suffering.

And I think me and you differ a little bit.

I think your, your view is that actually if, and I'm quoting you and

I'm probably gonna get this wrong, so please correct me that actually you

can get rid of suffering pretty much completely by changing your experience

of it and just actually not adding that second arrow, that second layer onto it.

Yeah, it's, it's, again, it's, it's, it's seeing clearly the way that things are.

It, it, it's seeing that yeah, things are as they are, there's always loads

of stuff happening that we don't want.

And, and the, the reason is, is that, that it's the mind that's creating

the story about what it wants.

It's the mind very, very naturally and, uh, and, you know, reasonably not

expecting Coke to be on your top and in your lap, but you know, there cold.

But you might, it might be a bit more subtle than that.

You might pick it up and it might not be ice cold.

And I might be, ah, you know, there's just that little moment of reality, not

meeting the mind's expectations of like, oh, I was really, I was really hoping this

might be this, this might be ice cold.

And, um, it, it's, to really see that we've got this constant, uh, narration

from the mind and it's, it's meeting reality in all of these different moments,

in all of these di different situations.

And 99 times out of a hundred, it's not gonna get what it wants.

You, you know, it's not, things aren't gonna turn out the way

that the mind, the mind wants.

The way that the mind wants things is all based on our conditioning and what

we've learned and what we've consumed in the media and, you know, the values that

we've learned over time and everything.

And, uh, chances are that those values aren't gonna be met.

Um, and when they are met, it, it feels like, okay, well things

are going my way, i'm in control.

And I suppose I would invite viewers to, um, to consider, well, what,

what if that wasn't the case?

What if it was more a case of the mind's expectations have been met in

this instance, therefore it stopped complaining for a little bit, you know,

it stopped making a big deal about stuff.

And when the mind stops complaining and it stops making a big deal about stuff, then

we have an experience that's a a little bit closer to reality, shall we say?

We're, we're, we're able to see things a bit more clearly.

We are, we're able to be a bit more present to the actual situation.

We're able to be a bit more, have more of an experience of being connected

to life itself and all of all the, all the good things that it has to offer.

That is the thing, isn't it about stress?

I've heard that a a, a stress equation or, or a happiness equation actually is

equals sort of reality minus expectations.

So if your expectations are massive about this should happen and the realities it

doesn't, or I think stress, so that's happiness is reality minus expectations.

Um, stress is resources minus demands.

So I've got enough resources to meet this, oh, the demands are fine.

I'm not stressed.

Oh, the demands suddenly e exceed the resources, i'm suddenly feeling stressed.

And a lot of us focus on trying to change, I guess the reality actually, I've gotta

change the reality or I've got to change the, um, the demands rather than actually

changing what our expectations are or changing our view of the expectations.

Would, would that solve things?

Yeah, well that, and that, you know, that that's difficult in the NHS, isn't it?

Because, we, we've all butted up against this, uh, and it's the,

it's the source of, uh, what they call moral injury, isn't it?

Is that, you know, we have a, we have an expectation.

We, you know, we train for years.

We, we come through medical school, we learn all this stuff in textbooks.

We, we, we want to do our best, we want to help.

And then the reality of the situation is that the whole system's a bit

broken and it's falling apart and it's under resourced and, and, and, and

everyone's, everyone's struggling.

And so, um, it, you know, it gets to a point where, to a degree, you are

able to, to, depending on your level of seniority, change the environment

a bit, but then it gets to a point where you can't, and, and that's where,

that's where it's breaking point.

And I mean, I like the, the, the first definition, what

was it you said it was, it.

Happiness is reality minus expectations.

Yeah.

You, you know, to, to see things clearly is to see that, okay, now my

expectations here are absolutely, you know, they're, they're rock solid.

They're that this, they're, that this patient should

get the best care available.

You know, they're the, this patient should live.

They're the, this patient shouldn't be sat in pain a chair as opposed

to, you know, admitted to ward ,getting the treatment that they need.

Those are perfectly reasonable expectations.

But to see that the, the, the suffering that, that we experience

does actually come from that mismatch between expectations and reality.

And I'm sure that many of you listeners will have had the experience of, you

know, depending on the, the frame of mind that they're in, when, when they

experience a situation like that, that they'll either be incredibly

disheartened or, or very angry or, you know, filling in forms and writing

letters and making phone calls and stuff.

Or being like really, really feeling really connected to their patients

and, uh, and feeling great empathy for their situation and saying, look,

I know, I know this, this sucks.

You know, this isn't the best that we can be doing for you.

However, this is what we've got to deal with at the moment, okay?

This is, this is the best that we've got.

Internally it's like, well, this isn't my problem.

This is the system here.

This is the system that's broken, not me.

And, and absolutely doing the best that we can in, in, in that moment.

Because to see that, it doesn't help to be caught up in the stories.

It doesn't help to be caught up in the expectations if we can do something

about it, sure, that's brilliant.

But as we're finding more and more in the NHS, we can't do anything about a

lot of these things, that that doesn't automatically mean that there has to be

an experience of suffering and stress.

It's interesting that you've mentioned moral injury because that, uh, we had

Dr. Paula Redmond on the podcast a few weeks ago talking about one of the,

you know, the three different types.

Actually, she talks about five different types of burnout, and one

of them is to do with moral injury.

So it is not an overwhelm type burnout, it's a real sort of compassion fatigue

or empathetic burnout type of thing.

Would you then say that one of the, the cures for that is just

learning to, to detach and see it as just a, the mind's expectation?

I don't know Rachel, like, you know, I often have little kind of like,

thought exercises of, well, what, what, what would Giles of 2025 be like in

a, the old environment that I used to be in when I, when I was in surgery?

But yeah, I think just to, to have a knowledge of self, to have an, to have

a, a, a real understanding of what it is we're up against moment to moment.

We're, we are not up against the NHS, we are not up against patients,

we are not up against colleagues.

We're, we're up against our mind essentially.

We're up against the, the image of, of that that is

being created moment to moment.

And just having an appreciation of that gives us that little

bit of, of, of breathing space.

It gives us that, it, it, it allows us to get a little bit

of distance from the stories.

I mean, I think that, um, that, like my fa I'm sure I've jotted this one

out before Rachel, but my favorite quote on stress comes from, comes

from Richard Carlson and, and author of, um, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff.

And he said, your, the, your experience to stress will be exactly the

amount of your tolerance to stress.

So we all think that it's important to, well, if I could just

tolerate more stress, I'd be okay.

But, but almost by definition, the amount of stress that we can tolerate

is the amount that we will experience.

I have an incredibly low tolerance for stress these days.

If I, I think stress is such a, such a helpful, um, indicator of when I've got

caught up in those expectations, when I've got caught up in those stories

when I'm not seeing life clearly.

It's a, it is a really helpful reminder.

It's like, oh, you know, for a minute.

Then, you know, I thought, I thought that, that my, my feelings were coming

from, from this environment that I'm in, and, and they're not, it's, it's coming

from this, this thought created image that's being created moment to moment,

and that, that just gives us a bit of breathing space, that allows us to, to,

to let go of the stories, to let go of the expectations a little bit and, and,

you know, see, see things with clarity.

How they are.

Right, what's my next step?

What's the one, what's my next physical action I can take here?

You know, it's, it's very practical.

It's very practical.

Is there anything I can do in this situation?

No.

Okay, then.

So you are saying that's a very interesting quote about stress,

that you will experience the amount of stress that you're prepared to

tolerate, and you are saying, well, you are not prepared to tolerate stress.

Therefore, when a stressful event happens, what do you do?

What do you do?

Do

Well, I, it, it, it's understanding that there's no such thing

as a stressful event, Rachel, like, events don't hold stress

it's like, for instance, if you, if you were to, go to the cinema and watch

a film that was, Let's say it was a really scary film and you felt really,

really scared when you were watching it.

Now if you slow down a little bit and you examine what's actually going on here, you

know how we actually experience a film.

A, a, a film is no more than some dancing dots of light on a plain

white background that we call pixels.

And the visual system picks those up.

And it's also some, some sound, which is, which is, is variations in air

pressure coming out of the speakers that we can't see in the cinema.

And, um, for other things there's also, you know, there's a, there's a

sensation to, to, to an experience.

There's a, you know, there's, you might be able to feel the chair that you are in or

something, or feel, feel the temperature.

And all, all of that data, that's all coming in.

The data that comes into our eyes comes in as a different speed to

the data that comes into our ears.

And, and like nerve peripheral, nerve conduction's really slow

in comparison to everything else.

But, that's all created within, into an experience.

So the, the film itself isn't scary.

Just like a situation itself isn't stressful, which is why, you know,

two people can be in exactly the same situation and one of them doesn't

seem to be bothered by it and the other one is profoundly stressed by.

It's because stress isn't held within situations.

Life doesn't inherently contain meaning, by, you know, by definition.

It just is, and it's, it's us having this human experience that's cooking up this

perceptual experience within, and it's all mixed in with those expectations and

our understanding and our learning and our upbringing and all that kind of stuff to

present us with what looks like reality.

And again, I would say, you know, the, the, the, the greatest leverage that

we get in all of these kind of like downstream situations like, you know,

difficult situations at work and scary films and stuff, and it, it is to really

understand what's going on upstream.

It's like, oh, this experience that I'm having is real, sure it's real.

Look, I can feel the, I can feel my pulse racing.

I can, I can feel the, uh, feel the adrenaline of this situation.

I can feel the way that my body's responding to it.

But it's not true.

It's real, but it's not true.

It's a, it's a creation of the mind, like by definition at the level of

principle, it's a creation of the mind.

We're all kinda like walking around in these, these little separate, apparently

separate realities, you know, having our own little experience of things.

Which is why you can go to the cinema with your partner and you can think it's the

most fun, exciting film you've ever seen.

And they're like, they're, and they're asleep next to you.

It's like, well, what's going on there?

And you know, this is what I encourage my clients to do.

And with workshops and stuff, it's like, well, hang on a minute.

Let's just slow down for a bit and let's just start questioning these

basic assumptions of what we think it is that we're experiencing.

Because I've seen time and time and time again that when people get a bit

more of a handle on the nature of that experience, then the experience changes.

And I can see that in a very abstract thing.

I can, I can imagine sort of sitting in a workshop and that example

of a film is, is really powerful.

Yeah, 'cause it's a hundred percent your senses, isn't it?

And it's nothing that's happening.

You know, you are not in any danger 'cause you're sat in a cinema or whatever.

But I'm just thinking if you are, you've got to the train station, you're at King's

Cross trying to get back to Cambridge.

All the trains are canceled.

You've lost your wallet, you've lost your phone, you can't get home,

you've got nowhere of contacting people and you might be having to

like spend the night in the station, cold, hungry, dangerous, whatever.

That is a physical threat.

That's a real physical threat to you.

Yeah, and, and brilliantly the, the, you know, the human system is set up

fantastically to deal with that stuff.

You know, we're like peak human.

We are a, we're a number one species on earth, allegedly.

It's hard to believe sometimes, but yeah, we're absolutely,

I think, I think overall, Rachel, you know, the, like the, the organism's prime

directive is to stay alive and, and it will do whatever it takes to fulfill that.

So in that situation, like if someone, if someone throws a punch at us, we've

got these things called reflexes and, and, and we'll get out of the way.

If we were to stand by the side of a road, a busy road and deliberately just try and

like look at our feet instead of looking at the traffic as we cross the road,

we'd, we'd have a real visceral sensation of that being really, really dangerous.

That stuff's built in.

That's brilliant.

That's like, let's keep the organism alive.

Which is why like when you go somewhere, like, I dunno what it's like these

days, but when I went to Vietnam for my elective, like one of the most difficult

things to do was to cross the road because what you had to do was actually just

look at your feet because the traffic would go, you know, all these bicycles

and mopeds would just go range you.

And if you actually made eye contact with anyone, they were more

likely to smash into you 'cause they weren't used to it at all.

So, yeah, and that just goes to show that, there are cultural differences as well.

You know, what's, whose ex who's experience is true there, Rachel?

Is it, is it mine of crossing the road or is it the person whose country I'm in, uh,

when, when they're driving down the road?

The whole things just, it's all, it's all mind created.

So yeah, in in situations of physical threat.

the system, the human operating system will be at its best.

It will, it will do whatever it can.

And, and I would argue that, the best way for it to achieve those

goals is for us not to be caught up in a whole load of thinking.

You know, if you were in that situation, when do you think you would make your best

decisions to get out of that situation?

Do you think you'd make good, better decisions if you were kind of like present

and clear minded and, and not caught up in a whole bunch of expectations?

Or do you think you'd make better decisions if you were like panicking and

running around like a headless chicken?

I get that.

I get that.

And you can sort of really see that with the, the physical

survival thing, can't you?

So it's like, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm not gonna just step out into the road

without, without looking, 'cause that would be really dangerous, currently

here, uh, in England where I live.

So you can see the physical stuff when it comes to moral injury, that is all about

compassion for other people, isn't it?

It it, it's empathy and compassion, which isn't so much

about our own survival, is it?

But it is quite hardwired into us.

Well, it's, I guess, hardwired into some people more than other people.

Other people seem to have no compassion or empathy for, for others.

So how does that work?

Because I can sit there and go, okay, it's, it's just an experience I'm having

that that patient can't get the help that they need because of flaws in the system.

But in reality, I've got that patient in front of me really upset

with a health condition that's deteriorating, and it feels awful to me.

How do I, how do I square that up with, oh, well this is just an

experience I'm having my, uh, and, and my thinking's making it worse?

I don't, I don't think we get to choose Rachel.

I don't think we get to choose.

I don't think there's anything that we can do in situations like that.

Oh, it's like that Wayne Dyer quote, isn't it?

When you change the way you look at things, the, the, the things you look at

change, it means that the situation that you are in will actually be different

from the one, you know, you and I are sat here in the comfort of our, our,

our offices at the moment, having a, having a conversation, and we're creating

mental images of a future that, that may, that's unlikely for us to exist.

You know, it is in itself a story, and what we are trying to do is I,

is to put ourselves in that story and manage that situation, and manage

our experience of it, or manage it on behalf of our listeners and it,

and it's all stories, all thought.

I mean, I I, I do get this with clients where they've, they like, they've, they,

they've really seen something around this and like the way the world's lifted off

their shoulder, it's like, oh my god, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's thought.

It's like, it's not the situation.

It's, it's my mind's response to the situation that's the issue.

And there's something about that that like really, like, gives this space.

And so we'll be like, do I do a lot of my coaching out outdoors, and we'll be,

we'll be like, I remember wandering down the canal with the client and they'd

had the most wonderful realization about the nature of their problems and how

they weren't really problems at all.

It was just the, the mind chattering away, making it into a problem.

And then it started up again, but it started up again in a, in a way that

was a, that was subtly different and it was unrecognizable as thought because

it was a little bit along those lines.

It was a little bit along the lines of, now this is all well and good

Giles, and right here, right now, I can see everything with clarity.

I don't have any problem with any of this at all.

I can see life really, really clearly.

But what about next week when I'm not seeing, and it, and it's like,

oh, hello, hello, mind, you've made an, you've reappeared again.

And, and it, and it's something that like, really looks like a legitimate

problem, but again, it's just, it's just the mind getting revved back up again.

Because I think it was E, Eckhart Toll said that, you know, the guy

who wrote the, the, the Power of Now it's like the, the mind makes

an enemy of the present moment.

Like it's not required in the present moment, the mind.

So it makes an enemy of it.

It doesn't like us being, 'cause it's like, oh, well hang on a minute.

I'm out of a job here.

I'll tell you what I'll do.

I'll create a story about next week and we'll see how, see how we

can problem solve that one away.

It's just more mind activity.

I, I get that and I'm responsible for doing that, but there's

a, I've got more yes buts.

The more you talk, the more yes buts I've got, which is helpful.

Um, that's all well and good, like we wanna, we wanna avoid the stress, but if

we're trying to avoid the mind, 'cause the mind's not helpful, then won't we

miss out on the good stuff as well?

Won't we miss out on the happiness and the love and that 'cause all of that

is just thinking as well, isn't it?

what, why?

Why would you do that?

Again, it's like, it's more just like, there are absolutely no rules here.

None of this is prescriptive.

Like when I start my courses, I put up two disclaimers and I think

the first disclaimer is something that says, um, this doesn't mean

there's anything that you should do.

There's nothing you should do as a result of this.

And the other one is that you don't, this doesn't mean that you should

just put up with things at all.

It's just seeing life with clarity.

It's seeing how it works.

Now, if I've got some really, um, uh, hopeful, excited thoughts, like, maybe

about, uh, um, a a bike packing adventure that I've got coming up or something,

you know, I'm aware of what that is.

It's very pleasurable.

Um, it's a fantastic way of procrastinating and not getting any work

done, you know, route planning and, and, and fussing over my, my, my bike luggage

and stuff like that and shopping online.

It's all very exciting.

And, but it's all none of it's actually happening in reality.

It's all, it's all, again, the mind projecting into the future,

which is not a problem at all.

It's what us humans do.

I just know that, like to not really attach to that outcome

because I can't guarantee that I'm gonna get the outcome that I want.

I, I can plan to the nth degree about what my bike packing adventure's gonna

be like, but I can't control weather, I can't control how I'm gonna feel in

any moment that comes along, I can't control how other people are gonna respond

to me, I can't control the traffic.

I can't, you know, like none of it.

It's like, it's totally the unknown because life is totally unknown.

We don't know what's gonna happen from moment to moment.

So yeah, it's fine.

Have a brilliant experience, have fun, uh, daydreaming.

But there's a, you know, there's like, there's a fine line, you know, where day

daydreaming then sort of slips over into, into worrying and fretting, you know, and

again, that's when it's really helpful to be able to see things with clarity.

It's like, okay, so this little thought created future, like right now, it's

not helpful to give that attention.

So when you talk about your clients of getting these moments of insight,

I find that the biggest insights people get is when they realize

what they are in control of and what they're, they're not in control of.

and I think it's all well and good saying to people, great.

You know, the stuff you're not in control of, we need to accept it,

let it go, you can care about it, you don't need to carry it and all that.

And I think that is hugely helpful.

My issue is around the stuff that we do have control of.

And I think that's the problem for doctors is there is stuff you could do.

Like if patients can't get appointments at your practice, you could just work

seven days a week, 24 hours a day and see all those patients, you know?

And I think that's where we come a cropper of thinking, well, I

can solve this by working harder.

The reality is, no, we can't because that, that what happens when you are working 24

hours a day and there's still more people.

But we, we feel that we can work harder.

But there, the problem is we are in control of stuff

that we, that we could do.

And so what I tend to focus on is changing the way that we are

thinking about those things and the stories that we're telling ourselves.

Whereas you are saying you just need to distance yourself from the

thinking completely, recognize it's all a creation of the mind and sort

of say F it, I'm just not gonna.

Not gonna engage with that.

And what, by the way, when, what can I just clarify?

When I say f it, I'm saying that in the best possible way because we've had,

um, John C Parkin on the podcast, Mr. He wrote the F it books, and it's a proper

technique of detaching yourself from the outcome, the outcomes of what's happened.

So I, when I say effort, I'm not using it in ris, Derry way.

I am saying, actually that is a really good technique, just saying actually f

it, I can't do anything more about that.

I think this whole area of control, what we can control and what we can't

control lies at the root of the problem, really, because I, I suppose I'd be

quite provocative and suggest, for instance, I dunno what it's like in

your house, Rachel, but me, me and my wife both have a stash of cards.

Do you keep a stash of cards?

Yeah.

You know, So that like, you know, you're not always running around

like a headless chicken at the last minute looking for card.

So my wife's got a stash of cards and I've got a stash of cards.

And she gave me a card for my 50th birthday that she said she's had in

her, she's had in her box for ages.

And every time she gets it out and, and like she's rifling through

and she's like, no, that card is totally unsuitable for everyone.

Like, that's just gonna freak people out, okay?

Uh, and and she says, and I've had it in my box for years and, and,

and I, and I've never been able to think of anyone to give it to.

And she said, and I was just looking through them like in the runup to

your birthday and I realized that it was the perfect card for you, Giles.

And I've got it here in my hand and I keep it on my desk next

to my computer at all times.

'cause it's profoundly helpful.

And it says.

Relax, nothing is under control.

Okay.

Nothing, nothing is under control.

And so what I'd invite people and, and I realized that this is provocative and

kind of like, you know, when I'm working with clients and, and running, running

courses and stuff, you know, we kind of like eventually get to this point.

But it's like, well, hang on a minute.

Well, what if life is happening, what if the mind body is responding

in a way that is appropriate to keeping the organism alive?

That it, it's responding in a way that, that, that makes sense to it?

Like, for instance, we've got a whole load of physiological processes

going on inside our bodies right now.

Rachel, like Giles and Rachel aren't involved in those in any way at all.

That's just happening, okay?

So what if all of that stuff is going on?

What if we're responding in a way that makes sense to the

mind, body system at all times?

And then almost like overlaid on top of that is this narration by

the mind saying, oh, I did that.

Oh, I made that, I made that decision.

Oh, I changed that.

Oh, that's me.

Oh no, I didn't have anything to do with that because I don't like that.

It doesn't match with my values.

That's their problem.

That's not my problem.

What if like nothing is under control?

We are being lived by life, and then on top of that, we've got this almost

like, it's like, you know, when you watch a, when you watch a film With

the, the, not just the subtitles, but the, the, the closed captioning.

And it's going same of door closing.

You know, it's a little why if life's a bit like that.

But it's that, it's that life's happening.

And then we've got this kind of like DVD commentary, track o overlaid over the

whole thing with the mind going, you know, well look, I did that, which is again, why

it makes an enemy of the present moment.

Because when we are truly present to life, when we're in flow, when we're in

the, the, the effortless creative flow of life, it's commentary just, just

isn't, it's surplus to requirements.

It's.

But are you saying then that we have no choice

Is are, are we going?

There

Go on.

Let's, let's go there.

wasn't it?

I think it was Schopenhauer that said you, you're free to do whatever it is you want.

You're just not free to choose what you want.

You know, we can talk until the cows come home, but like bringing it into the real

world, there are, you know, there are real life consequences to some of these things.

To a lot of these things.

So it's understandable that, that in a, in a lot of situations, it will, it

will be difficult, like inverted commas difficult to make, to make decisions

because there's one mind created future, and then there's another mind

created future, but it's really, really helpful to see that they're both mind

created futures that we c we can't actually predict what's gonna happen.

And dancing to the tune of the mind, you know, having a bit more

understanding of what's going on means that we are a bit more in tune

with that, again, flow intuition.

gut instinct, just like doing the next thing that makes sense,

not making a big deal about it.

And if we don't know, I think, I think one of the biggest problems is that a,

a lot of the time we don't know what to do in any particular situation.

And we feel like we should, but we don't need to Right there and then.

And that's when the, the mind really, you know, like you, preparing

for a talk or a, a presentation or, or, or something like that.

You know, it's like it's in a week's time.

But we don't have a clear picture of exactly what it is we're gonna say

or how we're gonna do it or, and the mind, again, the mind hates that.

'Cause it just like, it likes to know, it wants, it likes to feel

like everything's sorted in advance.

So it talks a lot.

I get this like loads 'cause I'm, you know, I'm always, as, you know, I

write every day these days and, and, and, and I run Wellbeing Wednesdays.

And so I'm, you know, in front of audiences and stuff and, and just

observing what, how the mind responds to that is endlessly fascinating to me.

It's, oh, Giles, you know, you haven't done this, you haven't done that, you need

to do this, it's gonna be a toll disaster.

And it's like, yeah, they're their mind, you know?

Yeah, I know, I know.

Yeah, your input's not heard.

Does it make sense for me to be preparing for it right now?

Well, no, actually there's 10 other things that are more important right now.

Or there's really, there's only one I can do.

So there's one other thing that's important right now, more

important, and I'm doing that.

Thanks.

I don't need to be having my attention drawn by the activity of the mind

about its insecurities right now.

' cause I wanna be present to what it is I'm doing.

Actually,

But surely there's value in changing some of those thoughts.

So if you can actually change the way that your mind is thinking, then you're

going to be experiencing less distress when you forget to keep remembering that

it's not real, et cetera, et cetera.

I've never had any luck trying to change my thoughts.

Rachel.

You know, I, I just, I, I, I think we get the thoughts that we're given.

I think, I think it's a, it can become something of a burden.

Certainly my experience of the whole kinda like world of, of, of personal

development, of, of, of feeling like I should be able to change

my experience, that it's on me.

And, and when we say on me, what we are really saying is on, on my mind, you know?

Because the, if the mind body is, is, is, is moving through life, is being

lived by life, is just doing what makes sense, is responding in a way that

makes sense and, and we've got this, this narrative overlaid and that it's,

that the mind is, is is trying to take ownership of all of the activities

and the decisions and everything.

And, and so it can be a bit unhelpful, i, I framed, um, and you

know, I do with clients because, because they're like, well.

I, I feel like I should be doing things differently.

I feel like I, I, I, I should be able to, to, to deal with this in a different way.

I feel like I should be able to do something about, about this.

And again, it's just gently inviting.

Well, maybe, maybe you are not in control of that at all.

And seeing that, just seeing that again, just shifts things.

It shifts people's perspectives.

It's like, what, what, what if everything that I'm doing is, is,

is just making sense right now?

Well, that in itself is kind of like shifting something in the

background and, and, and different things then make sense, and you find

yourself behaving in a different way.

I'm just trying to work out how you can actually do some of the things

that are gonna shift you away from stress and burnout in medicine.

If you are not looking at, not just attaching to your thoughts, but the

way you're thinking about some things.

'cause you've got to change your thinking to start to realize

that the mind is just the mind.

That's a thought changing thing as well, isn't it?

Well, maybe, just listening to a discussion like this is enough.

Because the big changes that we see in our lives, they do come

around from shifts in perspective.

They do come around from shifts in thinking, you know, like you and I

have talked about alcohol in the past, and that was a big one, wasn't it?

And we get these shifts in perspective.

And the, that's not something that we bring about ourselves.

I think what, what this approach, if you wanna call it an approach

or a viewpoint, is what you called at the beginning, wasn't it?

You know, the, the, the, the beauty of this viewpoint is, as far as I

can tell, is like, you know, it's like, it, this is the way it is.

It's a bit like gravity, you know?

It's just the, the, the, the gravity's always there.

It doesn't really care about you.

You can believe in it or not believe in it.

It doesn't make any difference.

It's, it's, it's always switched on, you know?

And it's a little bit the same with this.

It's like, well, we we're always living in, we're always living in a

thought created perceptual reality.

That, that's just the way it is, basically.

You know?

Sure.

Does it look like that?

No, of course.

It doesn't look like that at all.

It's like the blooming best illusion the world has ever seen.

It's like, it's amazing.

But it, I think it's got to look completely true in order for

us to function as human beings.

But then to see through that trick of the mind just means that we can take

it less seriously, and maybe, looking in this direction, you know, there'll

be people who have switched off this podcast a long time ago, Rachel, 'cause

I don't want to hear what that, oh God.

It's another one with that Giles bloke.

He, he talks a load of waffle.

And then there'll be other people who are like, oh, it's, you know,

it is, it's that Giles bloke again.

Like the, the, when Rach and Giles were looking in that particular direction, I

didn't really get it because getting it again is an intellectual thing, isn't it?

You know, what, if there's nothing to get here, what if there's

nothing to get here at all?

What if it's like, this is just the way that things are, and always have

been and always will be, and, And just realizing that, and those realizations

are more likely to happen when we're not having an argument in our head

about yeah, you know, yeah, but.

You know, I see my job a lot of the time as, as managing those expectations,

managing the mind's response to all of this, to to, to help it go to sleep

a little bit, so that we can see Oh, yeah, underneath, that mind experience,

I actually find myself, I find who I really am, and I, and, and, and it,

it feels good, it, it feels right.

It feels like home, and it's okay that the mind does what it does, but

I don't have to take it seriously.

It's just chatter.

Maybe what we're talking about more is having to change your beliefs.

If you change your beliefs, then, then that changes your thoughts, but your

beliefs have changed about what the mind does and how helpful the mind is, which

has then helps you change your thinking.

And yes, when he said, have I ever been able to change my

thinking, I would say, yes, I have.

But if, and use the alcohol things as an, as a an example, I

did the, uh, alcohol experiment.

We talked about the, uh, Annie Grace stuff called the, I think the Naked Mind?

This Naked Mind.

Brilliant book.

If you wanna just like, change your relationship with alcohol, you know, I

just realized that I was just, you know.

Having more than I wanted to.

Uh, I didn't feel like I was addicted at all, but I just wanted to break that hole

that I felt alcohol had on me sometimes.

So I decided to do this as you say, alcohol experiment.

And the way it works is you listen to it, they talk to you

about your beliefs about alcohol.

Like, I need alcohol to relax or I need alcohol to have a good time.

And then you tried an experiment.

You say, well, if I go out and I don't have a drink, is it gonna be okay?

And you do that and then you realize your beliefs change.

'cause you start to believe, oh, I was okay, and actually I don't

need alcohol to relax and have fun.

So it's, your beliefs have changed and therefore your thinking.

So my thinking around it is totally changed.

And I, I do feel like I, you know, it just doesn't have that, that hold on

me of having to have it all the time, which is, which is absolutely great.

But I did need to do something and I did need to look at my beliefs,

which then changed my thinking.

It didn't just happen.

I couldn't just say, right, I'm just gonna realize it's my mind wanting alcohol,

therefore I'm just gonna leave it.

That didn't work for me.

Again, if we go back to my, my 50th birthday card, relax, nothing

is, is under control, are you open to the idea that, you know,

that that was gonna happen anyway?

And, and, and that, that's, given your experience of your genetics

and your biology and the, whatever it is, 13.8 billion years of

cause and effect that came before this thing we call Rachel Morris?

You know, given, in my, given all that has come to bear in this moment with this

experience that you are having, that it, you know, it, it couldn't have been any

different, you know, reality is, reality, is we, we get, we get what we're given.

And, I think trying to change a belief, for me, there's so much more power

in, in seeing that our experience of lifelike is just one big belief.

It's like all of our, all of our behaviors come from belief and, know,

to like just get a bit of distance from that is, and to get a bit of

distance from the need to do anything.

You know, what if that was the mind, Rachel?

What if that's the mind saying, come on, come on, we need to do

something, we need to do something.

Because aren't, aren't you and I in the business of taking things off

people's plates, Rachel, really?

You know, if when it comes to stress and overwhelm stuff, don't we want to give

people an easier experience giving them a whole load of stuff to do and them

beating themselves up 'cause they don't do it, or beating themselves up 'cause

they don't get the results that they want.

I've been there, I've been there.

It's like, it's not a pleasant place to be at all.

So, Giles, what advice would you give people if people were

saying, yeah, no, I, I agree.

I agree with this.

I'd love to be able to detach a little bit more.

how how do we actually do that?

Can I do something different here?

Can I read something I've written because it really answers this Question.

This is just a, an article I wrote for a magazine and, just let it wash over you.

Listen to it as if you were listening to a piece of music.

There's no information in here that's gonna give you a how to, there's no, there

are no there, there, there's nothing that you need to remember and apply from this,

but I want you to give yourself the, a treat, give yourself the luxury of taking

five minutes off life just to be open to things not being quite as they seem.

So I called this one, uh, No Ways to Wellbeing.

I think it was in response to the five Ways to Wellbeing,

no Ways to Wellbeing.

And it starts, um, with a quote from the Scottish mystics, Sydney

Banks, who said, the belief that it takes time to find wisdom is one

of the greatest fallacies on earth.

Wisdom is not learned, it is unfolded from within.

I recently had the honor of sharing some of these writings with a group of

crafters in my wife's shop, plug for the Wool Craft in Abergavenny there.

They meet up regularly to make lovely woolly stuff, and in doing so,

satisfy those five ways to wellbeing.

We're always hearing about: connect with others.

Be active, take notice, keep learning, and give.

It seemed like the perfect forum for these reflections on the human condition.

So I pulled up a chair and joined them as is usual when sharing with

a new group, there were questions, I say new, but of course no one

is new to this understanding.

We all know it on some level.

It's stuff we already do, isn't it?

It just needs someone to point it out to us, said one member.

The most obvious of these were the why questions, why we like this.

Why can we not see the simplicity of life?

Why is it so hard to be present?

Because between us, there was an easy acceptance of the fact that

contentment and peace of mind are to be found now in presence.

And there was a recognition that inside is the place to look for it.

ie not to the impermanent, false idols of the outside world,

possessions, status, dependency.

There was also a tangible feeling of connection and oneness in the room.

A rightness to the materials being shared, manifesting as a desire by everyone there

to hear more of these simple truths.

But then we faltered as the mind reared its head with all

of its unanswerable questions.

Why, what?

How?

What should we do now then?

Well, you are already doing it.

How do we spend more time being present?

Oh, the irony of that question.

Well, you are already there.

You've already got what you're looking for.

You see, we'd spent this time together in a lovely feeling, and yet the

mind wanted more, more answers, more content, more tools, more

space and time to figure it out.

But these are just the mind pulling us away from the very thing we want.

It is the source of our discontent, another disguised aspect of

the outside world that contains none of the wisdom we seek.

You could give it everything it thinks it needs in order to quiet down and then 10

minutes later it would be back for more.

Nope, that's not it.

What else have you got?

So what if you are your own answer?

What if there's no need for anything more than that?

What if each moment that comes along is a gift?

One that you can savor or one that you can be distracted from by the

minds inexhaustible demands for more, different, better, not this?

Wellbeing is here, it's now.

It's who and what you are always and forever.

It is the very definition of look within.

With love, Giles.

Where can people find out more about you and your work?

My website, gilespcroft.com.

I've got a, a, a newsletter, um, called The Daily Reminders, because I've seen

that the biggest problem I think we face is that we forget our true nature.

We forget all the time because we're human, because it's, because it's all

hidden behind this amazing illusion that makes everything look true,

that makes our version of reality look true, and, and we forget.

So I've taken to sending pithy little daily reminders by

email that people really love.

So if you head over to my website, I think you, you get them, don't you, Rachel?

I do.

I enjoy them.

I like these little pithy.

It reminds us to make my own of little bit more pithy.

Oh, well there is the occasional, very long one.

Thanks for listening.

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