Rebecca and Tori chat about Wes Anderson's 2025 film, 'The Phoenician Scheme.' We discuss what makes the movie Wes Andersony, the evolution of the relationship between the principle characters, and the actor performances. We experienced some technical difficulties right at the end, so the episode seems to end a bit abruptly.

Music

Apache Rock Instrumental | by Sound Atelier; licensed from Jamendo

Clip

Anderson, Wes and Roman Coppola. 2025. 'The Phoenician Scheme.' Directed by Wes Anderson. Universal City (CA): Focus Features, LLS. Streamed on Fandango.

Sound Effects

Shining Star Flourish: Sound Effect by u_it78ck90s3 from Pixabay

Spotlight Flourish: Sound Effect by StudioKolomna from Pixabay

Technical Difficulties: Sound Effect by Sound Instants

Explicit

We swear and discuss pornography.

Sources

• Raree show - Wikipedia
• PEEP SHOW - History
• Mayhem Mendes | 24 May 2025 | 'The Phoenician Scheme' - Behind the Scenes | YouTube
• Q with Tom Power | 5 Jun 2025 | Wes Anderson Dedicated 'The Phoenician Scheme' to His 'Spectacularly Intimidating' Father-in-Law | YouTube
• Vanity Fair | 6 Jun 2025 | Every We Anderson Movie, Explained by Wes Anderson | YouTube

Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. Today on Wallowing in the Shallows,

We need his portable polygraph.

That was amazing. And speaking of portable potty...

Portable potty...

[laughing] ...portable potty graph...

Portable polygraph

Potty just came out so naturally after portable.

Hey hello peeps, welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, this is Tori.

And this is Rebecca. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks.

There are no spoiler guards in the Shallows, so listen at your own risk.

Today we are jumping into the Phoenician Scheme from 2025, directed by Wes Anderson and written by the aforementioned Wes Anderson and Roman Coppola.

Yeah. I can't believe we haven't done a Wes Anderson film yet. Yeah. Because I like Wes Anderson. So I was pretty excited. I have to admit, I hadn't heard of this movie until you brought it up, but I was really looking forward to watching it. So.

Yeah.

For those who are not familiar with him, Wes Anderson also did the Royal Tannenbaum's, Grand Budapest Hotel. He did that zoo, aquatic zoo zoo? What?

The Live Aquatic with Steve Zuzu.

Yeah, I don't know how that didn't just trip off my tongue.

Well, I didn't realize his first movie was Bottle Rocket, which I'm going to assume I've seen, but that came out quite a while ago. you know, maybe I didn't, but I was kind of shocked. One thing I like about Wes Anderson is that, well, number one is behind the scenes crew. He spent years putting together. And so, you know, he works with the same crew as much as possible and

Mm.

And he also has actors that he works with pretty consistent. Yeah. So, and it was for a long time, like Owen Wilson popped up in a lot of his movies. Bill Murray always pops up in it seems like. yeah. Rushmore. Yeah. it's been a long time since I've seen Rushmore. But yeah, he's just, I mean, it was funny. So I watched this last Thursday.

Again and again.

Jason Schwartzman.

Because I didn't feel like working anymore. So I'm like, I'm going to take a break. I'm to watch this for the first time. And when I went to work out the next day, I was talking to, you know, my trainer mentioned that I, I watched this. goes, is it good? And I'm like, if you like Wes Anderson, yes. If you don't like Wes Anderson, you're not going to like this at all because this is very, very Wes Anderson-y. You know, I was just like, even if I had not known.

this was a Wes Anderson film and somebody just threw some of the scenes up in front of me, I'd have been like, that's Wes Anderson. I mean, it is so Wes Anderson-y.

Yes, I totally agree. I didn't, I mean, it isn't becoming, it's not Rushmore. It's not Grand Budapest Hotel. I very much enjoyed it, but I do have to admit the first time I watched it, I watched it with a friend. It had a little bit of wine and I fell asleep. And so that did not go well. So I mean, I woke up for part of it I was like, whatever happened to Scarlett Johansson? You know, so that.

But then the second time I watched it, I was completely cognizant the whole time and very much enjoyed it. not quite sure I'm ready to put it up in the pantheon. Like I don't think it's going to be in my Mount Rushmore of Wes Anderson. so and and I think what you're saying is advice is really good. If you like Wes Anderson, it's worth seeing. If you don't, you should skip this one.

Yeah, yeah, because it's again, very Wes Anderson-y and hopefully, you know, if you continue listening, you'll find out what I mean by that. But it was, it was kind of funny. I was, I guess making popcorn or something. And so I was kind of like standing in front of my TV, watching the beginning of it. like, Wes Anderson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm going to try to like not give too much away on the assumption that

Most listeners are probably not seeing this, but like within the first two minutes, here's my reactions from the La La La Wes Anderson thing. like, my God, holy shit.

Just like.

This is gonna be a ride

Yes.

So, cause I was just like, okie dokie, we're going there, right? Got it, got it, got it.

Honestly, those exclamations you were making were kind of like me when I was watching the list of people who were in this film during that part where we're seeing the bathroom from the top. And I'm like, my gosh, you're kidding me. Them too? Holy cow. And so it really does. It's an incredible cast. It's an incredible cast.

And some of them are not even on screen for like five minutes. Like the whole, I love it in the credits, they're called the biblical troop. You know, I think if you piece together like Willem Dafoe's time on screen, if it is five minutes, I would be surprised. And Bill Murray's is even less. Which tells you a lot, right, about how the industry thinks about Wes Anderson. That people like

agreed.

Willem Dafoe, Tom Hanks, Brian- Yeah, yeah. Benedict Cumberbatch. I mean, he was in it longer, which I did not recognize him at first.

We really have.

you any familiarity with Mia, is it, Thrapleton? The person who played Liesel.

You

I, for some reason, had heard the name, but I've... she has a really short CV, but I don't think I've seen her in anything.

you

Do you know her relative claim to fame? She's Kate Winslet's daughter.

I do not.

seriously, maybe that's why she looked so familiar to me. Wow. Okay. Did not know that. I kept thinking when I was looking at her and I'm like, wow, she really looks like that actress that I saw in Supernatural who played like Lilith who was a super evil demon, but as a little child. I looked, I did, I didn't, it's not in there. That was another actress, cause I looked that up.

Okay. I did not realize that was Kate Winslet's daughter. But maybe that's where the familiarity is coming from when I was looking at her.

Yeah, yeah, because I do not think I know her from anything else, but I could have been picking up Kate Winslet vibes. And yes, indeed, Roman Coppola is the son of Francis Ford. just so everybody's on the page. Same page with that.

I figured as much. I figured that it was. I thought she did a really good job.

she was a highlight. mean, and of course a lot of the weight is on, I mean, it's the Benicio del Toro and Mia show. mean, they are a lot of the screen time and I thought they both did a very good job.

Yes.

Yeah. Well, I guess Anderson wrote it for Vinicio del Toro. Like as he was writing it, that's the actor he had in mind the whole time. And some of the characteristics of what's it, Corda? Zsa Zsa. Zsa Zsa. Yeah. Zsa Zsa Corda. He said, you know, he's just a businessman. Kind of a shady character, but still charming and in a weird Wes Anderson way charming.

But he said as he was writing it, he couldn't help but put in elements of his father-in-law. And that's who the movie is dedicated to. So his father-in-law, guess, passed away a couple of years ago, but he said he was this larger than life kind of character, very astute businessman, very smart. And he said he just, as he was writing, even though he knew he was writing it for Meaning Show Deltora, he couldn't help but put in these elements of his father-in-law in there.

So I thought that was kind of interesting because I was going to look up because I saw the dedication at the end. I'm like, I wonder who that is. But I was watching an interview with Wes Anderson. didn't get to do a lot of research, but Fouad, Mikhail Malouf is his father-in-law, who was also an engineer and businessman. So that's who he dedicated it to. He said he was.

very cool.

Gentle-wise, spectacularly intimidating, and he organized all of his business stuff into shoeboxes.

Incredible. Okay. And that was a very cool detail. That's awesome. Yeah, that it was actually an inspiration from a real person.

Yes.

Yeah. For people who haven't seen the movie, the basic premise is Benicio del Toro is playing this businessman, Ja Ja Corde, and they keep trying to assassinate him. And so he's trying to make sure that countries like Great Britain and United States and so forth can't get their hands on his property and his wealth. So

He makes his estranged daughter, Liesl, played by Mia Thrapleton, his sole heir, even though he has 10 kids total. But all the boys are pretty young. don't think any of them are even 18 yet. 16 maybe is the oldest, but she was planning on being a nun. And so the whole movie is, there's a, I was just calling them the shadow council.

so young.

of businessmen and politicians and so forth that were trying to bring Zsa Zsa down because he was corrupt and it was bad for them, both politically and economically. so they're kind of setting him up. And so the whole movie is about Korda trying to make sure his big scheme, the Phoenician scheme, which is a huge engineering plan to like

Put it in the canal and it'll-

was there a damn right in a desert

Damn.

rivers.

Yes, there are. And not get killed in them as they're going along.

Yes, which is easier said than done.

Yes, because they are always trying to kill him. I love what he's talking to her that one time and he's like, tell me who these they are.

But it's really interesting to learn that the biggest they is Uncle Newbaw. You know, his own half brother?

Uncle New Bar.

The son of his father. I loved it when he's like, the son of my father. Lisa looks at him and she goes, you mean your brother? Half brother.

Yeah.

And even at one point, like when Scar Jo shows up the first time and she goes off, you know, this is the, I wrote it down. But the way they talk about family, they never just come out at first and say, this is your great uncle. this is your, I'm talking about your grandfather. First has to be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? The son of my father kind of thing before just.

Say it's your brother,

But it is appropriate because it is like this distancing, right? Because this family is not close. And in fact, in some cases, they're trying to kill each other. So they're able with those little verbal machinations to distance themselves from saying, my brother, or half.

Right. Well, I guess if you're trying to kill somebody, it helps to somehow distance yourself.

Yes, yes. Okay, so I need to ask you a question. As a fellow person who has spent a lot of time in the middle of the country, you are trying to decide which is softer, cornfield or soybean field. Which do you go with?

didn't even hesitate, I'm like, go soybeans!

100 % 100 % now does it matter when you're talking about a plane crash? don't know but if you are trying if you're making the decision about upon which is softer I just think you gotta go soybeans. Them stocks, them stocks are not.

Yeah, absolutely.

No, and when he like, that one corn cob off of, you know, the dried stock, I'm like, don't even do it, dude, don't do it. And he takes a bite. Dude.

It's feed corn. Yeah. Dude, that's not meant for humans. Yeah. This is not sweet corn in this gigantic field. This is meant to go in the belly of the things that you're going to eat. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that was funny, but yeah, I didn't even hesitate. I'm like go soybeans dude go soybeans

Mm-hmm, which he did not.

No, no. His pilot. Gosh. That was one of my, I think that was my, when I yelled, what the F? After he injected his.

my god.

Now, I think my first what the F was when the administrative secretary got sucked out of the, well, half of him got sucked out of the plane.

That was my OMG. I was like

This is all like in the first two minutes of the movie. Oh yeah. I loved it. I was just like, Oh, I'm going to like this movie. Yeah. And I have to say, I mean, I know it didn't rate super high. Like on IMDB it's like, what? I have IMDB up 6.6. Yeah. I have 10 and on Rotten Tomatoes, mean, the critics have it at 77 and the fans have it at 70, but I liked it more than that. go, I don't, I mean, I would.

I might give it like a 8 out of 10. Just because there were elements of it I enjoyed so damn much that were so subtle that I just couldn't help but rewind it a little bit. And I'll talk about some of those as we go, but...

And the consistent and this is so Wes Anderson, right? The consistent sort of wooden dry delivery. That makes some of those funny lines even funnier, right? Because it's so deadpan.

Yes.

I could not keep a straight face if I was trying to deliver some of those lines. And they did it so well. I mean, I mean, and that's what Wes Anderson is famous for, right? That dead pan delivery. And so I really liked that. But you know, you mentioned the bathroom scene and, I was like, you know, if somebody had just shown me that overhead shot of that bathroom, I would have said that's Wes Anderson.

Something about the way he uses patterns and while his sets feel rich, they're often very minimalistic, you know, because that one, the whole center of the room is just empty and it's just the pattern of the floor and people occasionally, the nurses walk across it and so forth. But it's very minimal, even though the patterns and so forth make things in the colors that he chooses.

make things like a muted richness, if that even makes any sense whatsoever. It's a little bit of a contradiction, but I mean, and little touches like the bottle of wine or champagne in the bidet.

Yes. On ice in the-

You

Yeah, mean that was just all so Wes Anderson.

You know, I just want to pick up on your muted yet bright. It seems like the palette has a lot of primary colors, but they are muted, you know? So I think what you're saying is legit.

There are some jewel tones in it, right? Like if you think about her rosary and so forth, but the setting, the colors are usually muted. And I find that is just like a highlight of Wes Anderson films, right? And so it allows the characters to kind of stand out in a way. it's an interesting and really unique way of enhancing the actors.

Thanks.

and keeping your focus there while you're still, I mean, the background, like if you think about that hotel, it looks opulent, but the colors are like a pale salmon and a pale blue and green and everything's like pale versions.

Yes, pale versions of bright colors. Yeah. that, if that all me. And because, you know, I do think that that hotel you're talking about at the end, when Benedict shows, well, not the very end, but when Benedict shows up, I think that's supposed to be Luxor in Egypt. yes. Yes, yes. But I, read somewhere that it was Luxor and

Right.

It's so...

having been to Egypt, even though these, well, I know this was in a hotel that was sort of a recreation, but even when you go in and inside the pyramids, it's amazing just how much color is still there. And even these thousands of year old wall paintings are brighter than what we saw in that hotel in Luxor. mean, it hit all the right notes, but again, just like you said, and I think the perfect word is muted.

That is such an important contrast for Liesl who goes through this whole process, right? The first time we see her, she has no makeup on. I don't know that we saw her legs. Okay. Thanks for clocking it. And she has no painted nails, you know? So then we have the rosary again, and just like you said, very bedazzled. And, you know, later we have the corn cob pipe.

They were in white stockings.

black shoes.

with the jewels of corn and her nails are painted and she has kind of, I'm just gonna say it, of garish eye shadow on. this real, it's such a, something that I found so interesting throughout the film was this, at the beginning, we just have Zsa Zsa as, you know, not pure evil, but he's cloaked in...

somebody that you're like, yeah, go ahead and assassinate this guy, right? And then we have the novitiate nun, who is this symbol of purity and innocence. And I feel like throughout the film, they grow closer and closer to one another. And both of them, by the end, are just normal, cool people.

Right? Either they're coming more into themselves or founded more, found more about themselves, or maybe they have been personified in ways in these roles that weren't really genuine to them. But by the end they meet at the middle. And I just think that that is such a really cool evolution that happens over the course of this film.

Yeah, it was. In fact, I'm glad you brought out that makeup because I don't even know when I noticed it, but I was like, wait a minute. I mean, and how do you not notice it?

So curious.

Yes.

It's like an 11 or 12 year old, right, who has never been taught how to put on makeup because she's been at the convent since she was what, five? So it's all very super bright, right? So that stands out in these muted colors around her. So I went back in and looked it up and the first time she wears makeup is at the first family dinner, like when all the brothers are there. And I noticed, I think it's one pretty soon after that.

There's a few more scenes and then they have to leave to go try to save everything, save the deal. But it's the first time when she gets on that plane, the new plane, which is exactly the same except for it's red now instead of green. And she's got on those green hose or stockings. So yeah, it was just, I noticed that I was like, that's really interesting that to have those kind of, I'm still going to call them subtle.

right? Because she's not coming out in sequins, gowns, and stuff like that. But they're showing how she's subtly changing. it really is an interesting... I mean, this whole thing is about their journey, right? And how he... It's like a coming of age story for Zaja, but like a coming of parent.

Yeah.

story.

And it's really interesting. I mean, you're really rooting for the guy by the end of the movie, right? Yes. Yeah. I totally get what you're talking about there. Yeah.

He's very genuine. Yeah. Right. And I do, I really do believe, I mean, I know he's got all these assassins that he's recognizing, but I want to believe that he had nothing to do with the death of his wives. Right. It wasn't that he just had them assassinated though. It is pretty suspicious how many of them died. They're all dead.

True.

But I think it was Uncle Newbar. I just think he hated his brother so much for whatever reason. What was the... Who can lick whom?

Who can lick who first? Who? Her.

Bye,

Yeah. And I'm like, wow, that's craziness. But yeah, I don't know. I don't think he killed his wives.

Yeah, I really, he's the mobster with a heart of gold.

We need his portable polygraph.

That was amazing. And speaking of portable party,

you

Portable polygraph body just came out so naturally after portable Shout out to Michael Cera, right? Who is also such an interesting influence on Liesl as well and I don't want to call it her corruption

god.

you

Because I don't think she ever loses her moral compass. She just gets unfettered by the sort of artifices of religiosity.

Yeah, she even admit, I mean, she didn't like technically lie, but she, you know, would pray to God and then, but she just does what he thinks he would say. Wasn't technically a lie, cause she made it later that God doesn't talk to her.

We need this line. We need this line exactly because it's significant. Okay, I've got it. Because I think this might be, I don't really know what to call it. Do I want to call it my spotlight scene? I just, okay, I'm going to go ahead and call it. I'm going to call it my spotlight scene.

you

Okay. So this is her exact line. Okay. When I pray, no one answers. I only pretend he does. And then I do whatever I think God probably would have suggested. It's usually obvious. Now, I of course used a lot more inflection than she did because no inflection was used. No inflection was harmed in the making of this film. But.

Yeah, she was very dead. my We should have tried to do the whole podcast in that dead pain.

You know what? Impossible for this one over here. There's just no way. But I just, thought this was such a beautiful credo. I just, I think that it really is. She's a good person, right? She is just a good person. And so she's praying, but she doesn't get a specific, you know, bullhorn response, but she's like, well, what is the right thing to do? And guess what?

The right thing is usually pretty obvious. And so I don't need somebody in a white robe telling me what's right. I know what's right. And I'm reflecting on it and it's coming out. Now, how she was able to get Farouk to make the granny shot, I don't know.

Yeah.

That was funny. That was, in fact, you know, it was funny when I was at the gym talking to my trainer about the movie, one of the other guys was standing there. He's like, what movie talking about? And I was like, the Phoenician scheme. He's like, the basketball scene is the best.

you

Awesome. I'm sorry, I missed this. This was somebody at your trainers. This wasn't your trainer, but.

he's another one of the trainers. that. Yeah. Yeah. So many of them are really big into movies there. So anyhow, yeah, I was like, like, she pricked the basket into existence.

How cool is that?

Nice.

I mean, that is not one you can explain away with, I just did what I thought was the right thing. But, you know, weird things happen. Before we leave the kind of evolution of Liesl, also kind of what she consumes, the very first thing that is served. So meanwhile, Bjorn is all down for the game hen and whatever.

Bye.

Yep.

And, Liesl is like, I usually have little crusts of bread. And so when the three of them are sitting at luncheon, as it is called, the two men have their game heads. then, and shout out to, is it Jennings? Who is the actor? Yes, Alex Jennings, who plays Broadclaw. And says, says, you're bread crusts, Miss Liesl?

Broadcast.

Yes, I roared. thought that was... He was amazing.

So funny.

He was.

He's like...

He never has a change. Well, he doesn't change his outfit, but many people never change their outfit in this. Although Zsa Zsa changes his outfit frequently. But I was just like, dude, how are you keeping a straight face? mean, I noticed that a lot of people would just stare off into the distance. Did you notice that? I'm not going to look at anybody. I'm just going to stare past everybody because if I look at somebody, I'm going to laugh.

time.

you

That's lot.

So we go from bread crust to beer to sort of this opulent champagne cocktail with a maraschino cherry in it or something. again, just kind of like, and thank you, an important detail. Also a sugar cube. again, we just kind of, again, I don't want to say the slippery slope because it's not like she becomes evil. It's just sort of her journey to

you

I'm gonna say her true self. I'm going to say, you know, she's been kind of in this, she's literally been in a cloister. Five or six years old. And by the end of the film, she is who she's supposed to be. I guess of course there's also the smoking, right? Now that maybe she should avoid. That is maybe bad. That's maybe going to shorten her life.

So.

love it as a guy freaking corn cob pipe and the bejeweled corn cob pipe was amazing. yeah, I mean, it's, it's a coming of age story for both Yasha and Liesl. I guess she had to go in for a chemistry test with Benicio. And at first she didn't believe that she was actually getting the part. I it was kind of funny.

Yes.

Well, she was a huge fan. Apparently, you know, she loves the movies. so, yeah, I think she was just tickled that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did. They had really good chemistry. In fact, my spotlight scene. It's a small scene right before they're going to go in to meet with Uncle Newbar and they're standing in the hallway and he turns around and he's like, if it turns out you're not my daughter, can I adopt you? And she's like, yes. And he goes that everything will be okay or to that something that effect.

That's my spotlight scene.

That brings them all together, right? So they've been leading up to this and you could see the affection they have for each other growing throughout the whole film. And now that they've just, he's putting it out there. They're putting it out there. I just love that scene.

That's a great pick. That's a great pick. And I think just another quintessential moment of the film, right? Of another one of those takeaways that are meant to leave a mark.

Yeah.

Yeah. Makes you kind of wonder what their relationship would have been like if he had sent her away to the convent. Right. But I imagine it would probably be a lot worse, right? Because it sounds like he was just so focused on his business and Mr. 5%. He wouldn't have been any kind of parent at all. He would have been, well, I mean, we look at the boys, right? There's shooting arrows at him.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

He puts them in a house across the street because he wants. Yeah. So I don't know if she comes to the realization that it's probably better in the long run that they didn't meet. I mean, they've met, but they didn't really start to get to know each other until this point when she's what? Late teens, early twenties.

She turns 21 during the film.

okay. Okay. Do you mean the actress?

No, she has a birthday.

yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Cause that's when she gets the reliquary.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think it would have been a totally different relationship if they had been together the whole time.

Yeah. Yeah. And actually now that we're talking about her age, what a perfect age for her to be. Right. You know, we think of 21 as, you know, kind of an important milestone, at least, at least in the U S and an appropriate coming of age age, if you will.

Yeah.

I also liked how many trial periods there were, you know, on a temporary basis, probationary, she's an officiate, you know, there's all of this kind of like, I'm just going to dip my toe in.

Yep. Yep. I love when she tells him after the seventh plane crash and it's her and Jaja and Bjorn. Although they find out at that point that Bjorn's not who he has said he was. But I love when she tells Jaja that she's going to return to the sisters. And he's like, no, you're not. And he's always like telling these women, no, you're not. You're not going to do that.

And then you're always just like staring at him like, who do think you are? And I love that. I love that so much. Not just with her, but even with Scar Jo, right? You will obey me. I'm like, why did you say, say please,

I don't know what to do.

Ha ha!

It was almost like the Skywalker kind of like, these are not the drones you're looking for, except it's not working. Yes, these are not the, yeah, I've been battered by modern day. These are not the droids you're looking for, but having it not work.

The droids.

Yes. Yeah. I enjoyed that piece of it. That's all part of his growth too, right?

You know, what a perfect moment. I find Michael Cera very talented. I do not find him attractive, but I must admit the sort of like the ugly duckling takes her glasses off and she's suddenly the hottest girl in the class moment. His moment like that was pretty good. It was like he walked away, took off the glasses, sort of poofed up his hair a little bit.

Unbuttoned a couple of buttons, turned around, had a cigarette, and suddenly he was a totally different dude.

Get us tired

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was kind of like, Agent Carlson.

Yeah. And Michael Cera is my shining star.

good pic. And it's, this is gonna sound so stupid. It's the leaning. Do you notice how often he would be kind of off the frame or out of frame or hidden in the frame and he would just like lean into the frame and suddenly show up in the frame? And I was laughing so hard every time, because everybody's got the deadpan.

But his body was so stiff and he would just leave. And he had some great lines. And I love the transformation into Agent Carlson. But I really wouldn't know what his real name is if he prefers Bjorn. Yeah, he adds so much to it. And I don't know if I was surprised or not when it's revealed that he's the spy.

Yeah.

But I love when he becomes the double agent and he's such a terrible double agent, right? He's like, I'm going to introduce you to my handler now, who is Excalibur, Rupert Friend. I mean, the last time I saw him, he was an Inquisitor in...

Mando. Bulba.

Boba. Boba Fett. I think, was it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's Obi-Wan.

Okay.

Anyhow, yeah, I just, what is the line? There was this one line and I was like, between the leaning and this line. I know. It's when they're on the train and he and Liesl are, no, when they're on the plane before the plane crash. And he's like, are you very pure? Or something to that effect? I haven't written that, I just saw it a minute ago.

you

But Eddie.

I know the line you're talking about, I didn't write it down.

Are you very terribly pure yourself?

Ha ha ha!

matter in the least, even if you were the cheapest girl at the filthiest brothel in the seediest red light district on this swirling orb, nothing could detract from your loveliness." And I was like, thank you. It's like the worst compliment ever. And Liesl does, she just goes, thank you in that deadpan voice. But I was like, that's amazing. And also when he says,

Yeah.

I'm less inhibited when I pretend to be drunk. Yeah, I just really enjoyed his entire performance. I just thought it was masterful.

Pretend.

It's a very good pick and he has so many little, it's almost like he gets away with not being completely deadpan the whole time. It's like, he has so many, like when the polygraph gets put on his finger, like, my, you know, just he has so many little reactions that are really throw away. mean, like goodness and my, and dear, you know, that just are like precious.

Yeah, yeah, I guess he did quite a bit of ad libbing.

Well, I bet some of those were ad libs for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was just like, you know, when he was playing Bjorn, he did that really well. He had kind of like this innocence. He was just so excited about all the insects and the bugs and...

Well, yeah, he handled several insects over the course of Ant and Arachnid. you know, speaking of the insects, it was interesting because there was a real focus on a lot of the books that we saw were either about insects or pornography, right? And I think the pornography was, you know, very explainable to me in that.

you know, with this lewdness and there is kind of this, when Liesl is like, all of these should be burned except this one. This one speaks to me. You know, so there's kind of like this, okay, again, the evolution of her also finding her sexuality. And so she's not into all the pornography, but you know, this one's appropriate. And so that really made sense to me that the insect bit, I was a little less,

clear on. I don't know if maybe we could go down the line of this whole Phoenician scheme is a bit like on a very large scale like an anthill, this amazing, there is a lot of productivity in the insect world and they do perform incredible feats for their size. there's something along those lines.

I'm trying to remember, you know, because we get little bit of backstory. When he was telling his backstory, did anything about bugs come up? I don't remember.

I don't remember bugs. Definitely the cooking, definitely the downstairs.

and the dishwashing. I don't know. He was into bugs. He was into bugs. He was definitely into bugs. I wondered if they made up all of the names of those books. And I was like, well, they must have been having fun making some of those book covers if they're all fake. I I know that there are. Did you try to look some of them up?

I don't know.

That's not something I did.

I just didn't have time, but he, I mean, I know that there are archeologists and historians of the ancient world who have published about that. So I wouldn't be surprised about that, but I think one of my favorite ones was the peep shows of the Roman era was one of the titles.

sorry.

Incredible.

Editor's note, according to Wikipedia and peepshowmovie.com, the Romaniere did have peepshows. They were early forms of visual entertainment, and they often depicted exotic views, animals, from classical dramas, possibly court ceremonies, and occasionally lewd pictures.

Yeah, I had to pause that. like, what are the titles of these books? So I wrote all of them down that I could find or could read. Poisonous Stinging Spiders, On the Preservation of Beetles Large and Small.

flying insects of the near and middle east. And then we get into like the erotic etchings after the reformation, pornographic Constantinople. And then something about 18th century butterfly nets. was just like, okey dokey.

Those are just a few. I won't read them all, but yeah, it was like an interesting, quirky character trait of Zha Zha. He was always reading a book and yeah, was not books you would expect him to read. know, being a businessman, where's all the Dale Carnegie books? Well, stuff along that line, so.

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering about the whole captain of industry and all that, you know, the insects, insects are builders. There's well, I'm making a broad generalization there. aren't all. There are some there are some good examples. Yeah, termites or yeah, termite mounds, right? Don't termites make big mounds? Yeah. Yeah. one of the opulences.

Yeah.

ants.

that we haven't touched on yet of Lysol was the knife, right? Yes, she gets hers at the airport and then gets the upgrade from the Pope. Farouk. Farouk. Right.

Cause Farouk gives it to Zsa Zsa and he trades her for the more opulent one in the tunnel. That whole tunnel scene was great. And Tom Hanks and Bryan Cranston knocked it out of the park.

Yeah.

my gosh. my gosh.

Those basketball shots, genius. I rewound them several times. That was great. Pepperdine in Stanford.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you recognize the guy playing Farouk? Farouk is also in the basketball scene for our listeners. So, Prince Farouk.

He looked familiar, but I do not know.

Well, I remember him from Rogue One. I just couldn't help laughing because I heard he sent in like video after video after video, like I can do the character this way. I can do the characters this way. Or if you're like, I can do it this way. And they're like, you got the part. And he kept sending videos. They're like, dude, you have the part. You don't have to keep sending it.

which I've not seen.

but he was super excited. So I kept thinking about that while I was watching him, but he's a little cutie.

Yeah, agreed.

And that, I forget that actor's name. I have it written down somewhere.

there you go.

Riz Ahmed. but yeah, Tom Hanks and Brian Cranston, the brothers. I love how Zsa Zsa, you know, he's trying to cover the gap and he's basically trying to rewrite all these contracts and everybody would be just kind of like talking and then all the principals, financiers.

Then you all like start yelling at each other suddenly and it's just like, can hear anything. It's for some reason that really made me laugh quite a bit.

I kept waiting right when we get to the Jeffrey Wright scene, the Newark consortium. I'm like, when is Jeffrey, what was his Marty? Marty was his character's And I'm like, well, when are Marty and Josh going to start yelling? And they did. And then what's his face? The French guy, Marseille Bob, Marseille Bob had to get into the yelling match as well. I was just, what? You deek.

Mm-hmm.

quirky characters Wes Anderson comes up with, which is typical, Wes Anderson doesn't write boring characters no matter how deadpan they might deliver their lines. mean, Scarlett Johansson's character was probably the most boring of all of them.

Yes, and her accent was a little too little to Black Widow for me.

I was just like, what the hell is that accent?

Yeah.

didn't catch it as Black Widow. I was like, are you trying to be German with the name Hilda? But I'm like, if that's supposed to be German, that's really bad.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Maybe that's just, mean, Scarlett Johansson has a lot of talents. Maybe accent work is not one of them. And this is certainly a movie where your accent does not need to be perfect.

have.

for sure. Hey, I have a question.

Yeah.

I don't know why it just popped into my head at this moment. But so the pilot, right? At the beginning that he ejects and that pilot survives. Is he the same pilot then that gets poisoned when he's drinking a beer? Like the pilot that's poisoned?

I don't know the answer to that.

Cause I mean, when we see the pilot in that scene, he's so like hanging down. You don't really get to see his face well.

Okay, the pilot played by Steve Park. That's the at least the first pilot. This is order of appearance. Train crew, jazz band. Yeah, I am not seeing a second pilot. So isn't that crazy that that pilot would go back and be the pilot?

Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, dude.

I guess that was our piece, Willy.

Do you think that the hand grenade, the liberal use of hand grenades as gifts was anything connected to the old adage, close doesn't count except for horseshoes and hand grenades?

I've never heard that saying, so I can't answer.

You have never heard that?

No, it must be a Plains Midwest thing.

My gosh, you've.

never hurt.

Okay, okay. Few people remember that it was Robinson who foresaid, close, okay, I haven't heard this first bit. Close don't count in baseball. I haven't heard that bit. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. The quote appeared in Time Magazine in 1973. A guy named Robinson who was apparently involved in baseball.

And who said it?

Jackie Robinson? Frank Robinson? No, don't know.

Frank Robinson.

Close on my counts and horses and the Androids. Well, so you have no thoughts on the matter. Being unfamiliar with the quote.

You

None.

I did like the hand grenade bit though.

Yes. I hope you're still staying And I like that it was in a fruit crate. I thought that was funny.

Yes, yes.

I just do not want to forget to say I absolutely love what I can only describe as the drumbeat music. Kind of like regularly there would be this music in the background that was kind of like, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, ba-boom. Do you know what music I'm talking about?

Yeah.

I do know what music you're talking about. I really enjoyed it. That was great. It was good use of it, right? I think you need it because everybody's so deadpan that you need something to get your pulse going and so forth. I think they use the music and that drum beat to do that, to get you kind of going, something's going to happen. Something's happening. So it's a good foil to the deadpan delivery.

Yeah.

What did you think they meant when they're talking about Uncle Nubar? And Zsa Zsa says it twice, two or three times, like, he's not human, he's biblical.

Yeah.

I've been pondering that since I first watched it. I don't understand what that means, except that he's a plague. Maybe like a plague? I don't know.

It's a really good question. Like having strength beyond, you know, just sort of being larger than life. Being vengeance is mine, so sayeth the Lord, you know, kind of like just... Will. Okay. But I think Benedict Cumberbatch comes through. I mean, I feel like he does seem biblical.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You will. Yeah.

by the end of it.

He does seem biblical. Yeah. Why do think he blew himself up? I just gave away the ending.

mythical maybe.

Okay, no spoiler guards in the shallows.

I wasn't going to do that, but too late.

I think it was for the first time he did something, because I think he was going to try to, you know, in his last act, because I think he was dying anyway, because of the poison gas. And I think he was about to take out others with him. I think he finally did his one selfless act. And, you know,

decided to end it himself instead of taking out others. Doesn't sit with you.

No, no, still doesn't make sense because he was all hell. But even when he was like climbing on top of the model, something in that scene changes his mind. And I can't figure out exactly what it is, but I'd have to watch it again. I was, who was it? It might've been Benicio del Toro in an interview I saw. like, you he goes, this is a movie you need to see several times because you're going to catch.

do stuff each time. so I think I would need to see it one more time and really kind of focus on that scene. Because I can't figure it out. Like what happened? I mean, there's so much going on. If we can call anything in Wes Anderson frenetic, that would be the frenetic scene. But I can't, I didn't catch it. So I don't know. I don't know.

100%.

Well, we jumped all the way to the end, but I've got to go back a ways. So there are just a few lines that I'm absolutely gonna have to say. And one of them is on the plane. Ja Ja gets asked, is this a one or a seven? Which is an understandable question, right? Ones or sevens can be confused with one another. So is this a one or a seven? It's a G.

Okay.

Pretty.

Does a G look anything like a one or a seven?

Yeah, I like that line.

And we cannot gloss over the appearance of the freedom fighters. yes. by the incomparable, my gosh, I just. And I'm going to do a terrible job pronouncing his name. Richard Iote. Loved him. Absolutely loved him. He nailed it.

Richard Ayode.

I'm glad you brought him up. really did like him as well. He apologizes that Shasha got shot with unnecessary violence.

loved him. He's still not my shining star, but he nailed it. So my shining star is Benedict Cumberbatch as Uncle Nubar.

I mean, the way he delivers, I've got everybody's blood and the whole fight scene between Zsa Zsa and Uncle Newbar and them jumping around and then Uncle Newbar pulling the rug out from literally, literally pulling the rug out from under him when he's also pulling out financially was incredible. So that is my Shining Stop.

Nice. And he is the they. Because he's the one that's been hiring all the assess.

It's...

if you heard that here in any of it. It's not going well, I think.

You should probably...

I think we might need to call it. I think it's fate. I think it's a sign.

There's so much more we can talk about. There are characters we didn't even get to that we could talk about in more detail. But yeah, I think with the technical difficulties, we should just call it. We might be taking a break here for a couple of weeks. I got a lot of stuff happening and I don't know if I'm going to be able to record. Sorry.

Have patience with us.

but we will be back and we'll be back with good omens.

Good omens, good omens.

You

Very exciting.

So until then, all we gotta do now is say goodbye.

Thanks for listening, everybody.

When was your last confession?

I think I was 14.

Oh dear. Do still believe in God?

Sadly no.

Are you an atheist?

I'm a scientist.

You're an atheist. Are you chaste?

Not particularly. Is that important?

I don't really know.

Are you very terribly pure yourself?

Obviously, how can you ask me such a thing? Look at me.

It wouldn't matter in the least. Even if you were the cheapest girl at the filthiest brothel in the seediest red light district [oh dear] on this swirling orb, nothing could detract from your loveliness.

Thank you.

You're welcome. I speak my heart.

Wallowing in the Shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for Wallowing in the Shallows is Apache Rock instrumental by Sound Atelier, available on jamendo.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod at gmail.com. If you enjoyed Wallowing in the Shallows with us, why not hit that follow button on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Captivate, and pretty much anywhere else to get your podcasts fix.