In Part 2 of this Backstage Money conversation, host Jason K Powers continues his discussion with Danny Zelisko, veteran concert promoter and founder of Danny Zelisko Presents.

This half of the conversation dives into touring risk, ticket sales realities, and what actually keeps bands alive long term.

Danny explains how promoters evaluate risk, why overpaying for a show can sink everyone involved, and how ticket pricing must match what the market will bear. He shares candid insight on loyalty, competition between promoters, and why chasing higher guarantees without understanding your draw can backfire fast.

The discussion also tackles VIP packages, meet and greets, rising ticket prices, and the growing cost of live entertainment. Danny offers a blunt perspective on what helps artists build sustainable careers versus what accelerates burnout or audience fatigue.

Toward the end, he gives practical advice for up and coming bands on protecting themselves financially, putting agreements in writing, understanding club deals, and avoiding the common mistakes that lead to bad shows and broken relationships.

This episode is essential listening for touring musicians, independent bands, managers, and anyone trying to understand the real economics behind live music.

This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation. Part 1 covers guarantees, ticket pricing fundamentals, and why some bands get booked while others don’t.

Backstage Money is real-world finance for musicians, where music and money collide through honest conversations with artists and industry professionals who are living it.

Connect with Danny Zelisko

Website: https://dzplive.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dannyzeliskopresents

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dzpresents/

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So.

You have a little bit of license to turn down deals, turn down offers that come in.

I mean, you, because if it's not a good deal for you in

general, of course, but Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you, what are some, what are some,

I'm gonna say automatic yeses.

An automatic nos that, that play a factor in decision making for, for

bands, finding a good promoter and getting that promoter to work with them.

It is it's a slippery slope.

There's really no, not a lot of automatics.

most groups I'm pitched,

I always automatically wanna work with them because if I don't

put on shows, I don't get paid.

Yeah.

However you have to go by what did they do the last time in the market?

Did you do 'em the last time?

If you did 'em the last time, you got all the data right there

Yeah.

and not before.

I even have to look at that, which is more rare than it is normal.

'cause I remember, I mean, I know if a group did well or not.

You, you have to judge those factors of how they've done in the past and,

and try to ascertain they at currently.

Mm-hmm.

the mind's eye of the public.

And, and not easy, but that's what it possible for you to do this for

decades is by being, being right a lot more than you're wrong.

Mm-hmm.

It isn't rocket science but it is paying attention.

You gotta have your numbers together.

You, you, you gotta have a good memory and you have to remember which shows performed

and which didn't most of the time.

more often than not, try to remind somebody the next time you didn't

do so well with them last time.

And there's some other goof who doesn't know all that,

Mm-hmm.

they do know that they want that show 'cause it sounds right and it's sexy

Yeah.

it and they'll overpay 'em.

Mm-hmm.

Just to get the show.

I used to get very, very upset about that.

And sometimes I still do.

There should be some loyalty.

I've had the cases where, where I've lost a bunch of money on somebody

and I look forward to the next time.

'cause I like the group.

It doesn't mean I don't wanna work with them anymore, but I do want them

to be reasonable the next time around.

Yeah.

and many times I've had people outbid me from the last time

Okay.

time

Yeah.

because they don't know any better.

They don't research or do any background information.

And I've lost a lot of shows that way.

For a while here was, I, I had a really nice, I was cruising along very nicely

with, the shows because not a lot of people, especially the younger buyers

that are around today, they don't know a lot of the stuff that I know.

I'm not saying I'm

Right.

them.

Sure.

I, I'm,

but

but I only because I've been around longer.

yeah.

there's a lot of good buyers out there.

But the fact is, is they know what they know.

I know what I know.

when, when anybody sees anybody being successful with any kind of

music, they catch on sooner they, and go, why don't we get what he got?

Mm-hmm.

there's only so much content out there.

Mm-hmm.

so many good bands that actually draw out there.

And especially in my field, which are groups that were from the seventies,

eighties, nineties, mostly, the sad part of all that is it takes years.

It's a career.

It's not a

Yeah.

not a year, it's decades.

And sadly, what's happening now is so many of our groups from the

seventies and eighties are either passing or retiring or they have to

quit because they can't play anymore.

Yeah,

things happen like in the real world.

yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we're seeing a lot of that now.

I mean,

oh my

I'm enjoying, I mean, I've enjoyed the wave of artists that have come through.

In the past couple of years and, and I always joked, which I, I

I think it's quite true though.

It's 'cause gen X was the kind of the, the fan base for that era and we finally

have money now, and so we could go to the shows and spend the big bucks and So

you start seeing 'em all come back now,

I, I say it all the time.

I mean, you spend your whole life doing something, whether it's raising

kids or working whatever job you do, but you get successful at it

and you're making some dough and all of a sudden you're old and you

now, yeah.

it

Yeah.

or you're gonna run out of time if you don't, you know, do

something about it pretty quick.

Yep, yep.

so I'm, I'm doing my best to squeeze every last ounce

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, it's been fun and, and it's been like this year,

has been a, a tough year too.

Losing a lot of artists.

And it's just, it's just a sign of the times, if you will.

Like, it's just exactly what you said.

it's, it's every year it's it's, it's a real, um, it's a real shame, but you

know, it, I mean, it's, it's one of those inevitable things, just like.

Groups breaking up

Yeah,

and some of the group stays around and

yeah,

of the group retires, but some of that group, now you got one or two members

from the original group and for some reason they're charging double then

what the original group charged,

yeah,

know?

And,

yeah.

then people go, why aren't people coming to our shows?

You're charging too

Mm-hmm.

I mean, people have a finite amount of money to spend on

Yeah.

I mean, unless it's one of those gotta see shows.

There's, put it this way, there's more normal, regular, everyday kind of shows.

Then there are those exceptional ones,

Right.

know, that come out.

You know, there's, there's so many different examples of that, of, of

groups retiring and not retiring.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, you know, so people don't buy that a lot anymore

Right,

good reason because for most part groups never really retire.

right, right.

I only know of a few people that actually meant it when they said we quit,

Yes.

Seager's one of them, I the, the Seager was my first arena

show that I bought on my own.

I worked on many before that, but that was the first one I

legitimately bought on my own in 1980.

The day of the show, he cancels the show on me.

My goodness.

'cause he, he lost his voice from staying up for a few days.

Uh, and, and, and he, it was so dry in Arizona, you

can't, you can't smoke stay up

Uhhuh.

and, and expect to keep your voice.

A lot of people over the years have complained about, you know, the,

the dryness of the, of Arizona.

And and he made him up and he took care of everything.

He was a genius

Yeah.

uh, and a great guy.

To do what he did.

He wrote a check that night for all the expenses,

Mm-hmm.

and, and rolled it into two shows a couple months later, by the

way, that went from April to June.

Yeah.

And, and well, but, but see, he transcends that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

he was working on an album called Night Moves then,

Mm-hmm.

and I mean, know, when I look back and at something like that where

you're, you're in the midst of, you don't know it at the time, but you're

in the midst of their biggest record or the one that changed everything

Mm-hmm.

Those are the coolest tours to

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you know, that's, that's what you're doing it for.

Or, you know, the first Nirvana tour when, when they came

out with the, what was that?

Nevermind, 750 bucks for Nirvana

Yeah.

and $5 ticket, They really believed in starting things off gently and

making sure people came out to see him and, and get to see him at

that great time in their career.

And, and Don Muller was their agent.

He did an amazing job with them and Pearl Jam and so many

Mm-hmm.

Stone Temple really, really meaningful bands in the nineties.

Yeah.

those, those were the of the biggest ones that came out then, but they did it all

that formula, which made so much sense.

Mm-hmm.

groups don't, they don't get it sometimes and they go straight

for the jugular with the ticket

Yeah.

bigger places, you know, if you wanna stick around, I mean, there's

plenty of time for it when you're in your early twenties or late teens

or whatever, when you're starting out, there's plenty of time for it.

You gotta build that foundation first, and, and the money comes.

You do the right moves, the money comes

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what do you think is a good, I, I know it's a, a wide scope,

but what do you think is a good,

I don't know what you would say?

A simple, you know, fair club deal.

You wish more artists offered as they approach you for the,

for the, for the fans, but also that's fair for the artist too.

'cause the artist needs to make money.

They need to make a living, you know, and that's why we do shows like this, but,

it all boils down to what the market will bear

mm-hmm.

you.

You've gotta know your audience.

How many people are going to come,

Mm-hmm.

you know, whether it's 10 bucks or 20 bucks, whether it's 20 bucks or 50 bucks,

how many people do you want to show up?

Mm-hmm.

would say, well, we want as many as possible.

The more you charge when you're new, the less people are gonna come.

Sure.

So many groups ignore the fact, You know, that, that never really

get out there, how important it is to develop a local following.

Mm-hmm.

the way most groups become popular and or successful is by building an audience

where they live and, and playing there as much as they can and get as much

experience on stage as they can, but not to the point where people are sick of you

Yeah.

come and

Right.

'cause you're playing

We got those guys again.

Yeah, it's like, it, it just turns into a ho hum.

Know, so, a lot of groups just don't play it right.

They don't go out, and play four hours a night other people's

music and, and cover songs,

Mm-hmm.

but you know, things are different nowadays.

There's not as many bars.

Mm-hmm.

used to be, there used to be a lot of live music rooms everywhere.

Now there's set, you know, there's a few by comparison

Mm-hmm.

city that you might wanna go to.

And also, you know, sociologically things are much different when it comes

to how many people come out of drinking and driving, which is, is always on

Sure.

in the news.

People don't get high the way that they used to.

I mean, not on the stuff anyway that used to propel people into going

Yeah.

I know there's still a big, big audience out there for, shall we say, enhancement,

but it's not like it used to be.

And especially among the over 50 set, everybody's been there, done that.

Mm-hmm.

you, you've gotta be even that much stronger or, or that much more desirable

as somebody to spend an evening out with, than ever before because.

people have just calmed down a lot

Yeah.

from where they were in the seventies or eighties.

They're older.

It, it happens, but that doesn't mean they won't go out 'cause because they,

you're not gonna go out and get an eight ball and look for, you know,

scantily clad men and women, you know.

But that used to be one of the driving factors of

sure.

went to shows

Yeah.

but what's a typical deal or what would you recommend for

artists coming into this?

Like, do you do other, is it mostly flat rate for the artist?

Do you, do you know, some split at the end?

How?

you know, in club world and, and you're a new band and you're, you're

just getting out for the most part.

I know a lot of club guys are able to do percentage of the door deals, or they

give 'em so many, you know, so much per ticket or, or they just buy 'em flat.

I mean, it really depends on how many people know you.

There's, there's a barometer out there that you have to set, and the only way

to find out is by putting it on sale and charging the tickets or announcing it.

It's much different now than it used to be when it comes to that.

But you, it's really having a sense of what you're worth and the

promoter knowing what you're worth

Mm-hmm.

agreeing on it at the same time.

In, in order to you, you gotta back into your ticket price.

I mean, that's something that a lot of people don't do when

they're trying to set the price for a group, an agent, for example.

The, the groups want to get out and make as much as they can, as fast as they can.

I don't blame 'em.

I mean, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes.

Could be five or 10 years.

Somebody's playing their instrument 15 years before they get to the

point where they're good enough to get in front of people.

Now you've gotta have material.

That people wanna hear live.

Mm-hmm.

so to try to figure out what the best deal is, or the way to do it you have to figure

out how to measure up against groups that are already out there where you wanna be.

Mm-hmm.

Where does, where does your favorite group play locally, whether it's a national

group or not, and how much do they charge?

Can you charge that much?

The answer is usually no.

Mm-hmm.

you know, my advice is, is to get in front of as many people as

you can and be great on stage so people wanna come back and see you.

Opening shows is also a very important thing.

for instance I got Blue Oyster Cult this weekend in Cleveland and in

Detroit, and I went out looking for who is a band that goes with these guys,

and that would like to open for them.

I don't have a big budget.

I only had 500.

And we came up with a couple of groups and I'm looking forward to meeting both

of them and seeing, you know, did somebody recommend me to, you know, you, to me?

But, you know, those opening slots don't pay a lot unless you could say

to me, Hey, we just did a thousand people at 10 bucks on our own, uh,

Yeah.

month ago.

okay then you, how, how about I give you a hundred tickets and you go sell 'em

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you want?

You know, most groups don't wanna do that.

I mean, that's one of my favorite lines back to an agent when he

says, I want so much for somebody.

I'll go, why don't you?

I'll tell you what, I'll make a deal with the hu I'll give you

the whole gross it breaks even.

takes that deal.

Nobody counts on the fact that they're gonna draw.

They wanna know what they're gonna make.

and the bottom line is, I mean, in this last year, for every number

of reasons, ticket sales fell off.

And a lot of it has to do with the amount of live shows out there

versus how much each of them cost.

And most everything with the name, I mean, you're looking at 50 to

a hundred bucks no matter what.

Easy.

Yep.

And, and it's like if you're looking to get people to come out more

than once a week or once a month

Mm-hmm.

once every six months, you gotta watch yourself because you're

competing for that same dollar that somebody else is charging.

And they might be a bigger, more desirable, know, act

Right,

to go see.

right.

And, and you don't wanna say that to any group.

Their feelings are very, very sensitive.

You don't wanna tell 'em you're not worth that.

'cause they'll get mad at you and they'll say, well, we'll find somebody that does,

Mm-hmm.

out and make a mistake.

By getting somebody else who doesn't know them as well as you do,

Mm-hmm.

and, and they'll lead you down the road until you get to the hall.

You're gonna make this money, but you're gonna look like

$#!t because nobody's there.

Okay.

happens.

What's a, what's a common value add?

You see artists doing that work to kind of boost revenue a little bit per

show or per tour, things like that.

You know?

Is it the VIP thing?

Is it merch?

Is it,

Well,

you know?

know,

to me I, I'm not a fan of all that.

Charging people to meet you I think sucks.

Yeah.

Um, we used to do that as part of promotions with shows

as a really special thing.

You and your friend can get a meet and greet with so and so

and free tickets to the show.

Great seats dinner before the show.

I mean, I, I love doing dinner and a show type promotions.

But they typically don't include meet and greets people because of the

obvious thing with just meeting all kinds of people with potential germs.

You're on the road, you gotta watch yourself.

You don't, you don't go out and, and, you know, if, if you're really

careful, you don't go out and hang out all night and mess around with

your fans and strangers and all that

Yeah.

you're likely to pick something up.

But nowadays, I mean, with these packages, they'll charge you 200, 300, $500 to

meet somebody helps the band out, but they don't wanna share it with us.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I, I hate that for the simple reason that I'm one that's the bankroll.

make that show happen that makes it possible for them to

come to Phoenix, for example.

So you, you come to Phoenix, regardless of how the show's doing, you are gonna make

x amount of dollars that I don't share in, but I'm the guy that staked you to come.

Mm-hmm.

I get cut out of that?

Mm-hmm.

Well, you're not the one doing the meet and greet.

Yeah, but I'm the one that's facilitating it for you.

Mm-hmm.

hall that I rented.

Um, and, and so on and so forth.

It's like, you know, we should be in this together.

You know, they wouldn't like it if I took tickets off the system and

went and sold them for more money and didn't share it with them.

Sure.

So, you know, but that aside, you know, that's one way that people

enhance the concert experience.

But to me it's a money grab

Mm-hmm.

care who hears that.

'cause it is, I mean, charging your fans to get a picture taken with you.

I mean, I know it's the norm, but it's bullshit.

Yeah, there's, we've had a lot of discussion around.

That side as well.

And what,

you know, there's a lot of bands we've talked to that

will hang out after the show.

Right.

Hang out after the show, wander around, chit chat with the fans.

We'll hang out and, and that's great.

And I've, I've talked to many an artists that way,

Yeah,

lingering after the show and, and chitchatting and I love it.

And I appreciate that.

And, and there's some that I'm like, I'll pay the money to meet 'em,

you know, 'cause I, I, I get it.

If they stuck around, they would just get mobbed.

Okay.

I

I get it.

I mean, I, I

I,

that too.

I'm just

yeah.

so many groups with that.

I mean, after I put an offer in for somebody, you know,

we're gonna go on sale now.

Hi.

We're gonna go on sale now.

Oh, by the way, we're gonna do a hundred meet and greets.

Mm-hmm.

And we're gonna charge $350 each.

And they want you to do everything.

Facilitated.

like hold.

What I hate doing is holding tickets back and they're gonna use those

tickets as part of their package.

And then they sit on 'em until they all sell 'em.

Half the time they don't sell.

And you gotta go back and ask them, I wanna release these tickets.

The idea of being down close, you want it to be for normal

fans at the normal ticket price.

That's what I wanna do.

Yeah,

want somebody to have to pay 500 bucks just because their favorite

group has a package going on.

yeah,

It's, it's just not right.

yeah,

it adds to, it adds to killing of the golden goose of concerts because for

so many years, everything has risen up.

It's 40 bucks for a t-shirt, you gotta pay for parking.

The drinks are expensive at places.

Everything adds up where.

You, you've gotta be well off to go to a show.

yeah.

It's getting that way for sure.

you know, and, and it, look I'm, it, better to have than have not by,

by all means, in any walk of life.

Mm-hmm.

we're talking about concerts and, you know, let's put it this way,

uh, I'm not bitching about it.

I'm just talking

Mm-hmm.

'cause the cat's, well, well out of the bag, the horse is out of the barn.

know, it, it just is what it is.

And that's the way it is.

We deal with it and you move forward.

But it, it makes me as a buyer that much more careful about how

much somebody's gonna charge.

So, so just like when a, when a group says to me, I want X amount of dollars, and I

think it should be less, when you add it all up and you look at it before you put

that offer in, you gotta say to yourself.

Do I really think I'm gonna draw this many tickets at this average ticket

price or with this ticket scaling?

And if the answer is yes, go ahead and book the show.

but I found all, most of this year, not every show, but a lot of the shows,

there's legitimate groups that can charge and get what they're asking,

which means they're really worth it.

Yeah.

there's a lot of other groups that you had to charge more for tickets

in order to meet the demands financially of what the show costs.

Yeah.

And then when you're falling short, you can stand on the train tracks and let

the train come and roll over you, or you can adjust the ticket prices later

Mm-hmm.

hope people will come back and look at it

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It, it's, it's a touch and go thing.

What's some good things for artists to keep an eye out for or ask about

when they're booking a promoter?

How do they know they're getting a good promoter?

Or what, what are some tip tip offs for, oh, this is probably

gonna be a bad situation.

I think, and for, for many, many years there, there's people in every market

that most of the main booking agents know.

So they're not gonna sell shows to people who are gonna cheat,

the fans and, you know, take their money and run away with it.

Mm-hmm.

I, I mean, it's like anything else these days, it's so easy to shop

online and find out stuff about people.

If you wanna be sure of what you're doing, Google 'em ChatGPT em.

Do the research.

back, do a background check on whoever it is you're gonna work with, and make

sure there's not the equivalent of Yelp saying, this guy's a jerk off.

Don't work with them.

Yeah.

But the bottom line is like, I, like we said earlier, there's booking agents and

that's their job is to vet those people

Mm-hmm.

that the group, I mean, the group isn't calling a promoter

unless they're a new group

Mm-hmm.

they just don't have representation

Mm-hmm.

that case, you know, you're you're rolling the dice every time you call somebody.

It's, it's hard.

There's a lot of shysters out there on the smaller level

Mm-hmm.

um, who don't treat groups really good.

And, and it, to me, that's not always a bad thing because it's a

good thing for an act to learn the lessons of what to avoid or who to

avoid, or the type of people to avoid.

But when you're a new act, you're lucky to get booked anywhere.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's

So on those, on those lessons, what's one or two things that they can

not learn the hard way?

Well, I mean, there's, there's, there's simple things.

Agree.

Just like a ra, just like a real, like a real recording act.

You can look right online and get examples of, of deal sheets.

Doesn't have to be for that room.

say you're going into a room that holds, 200 people and, and you, and,

and the guy wants to make a deal with you based on how many people you draw,

you, you've gotta know what do they typically draw for groups like you.

and as you get a little bit bigger, you know, like, well, you're charging $10.

You're only paying me a hundred.

If I sell 200 tickets, don't I get to make more money?

Mm-hmm.

And, and you've gotta work through all that.

I mean, there's.

There's no real secrets about it.

The only way you find out is by doing it

Mm-hmm.

and going through it.

But once, you get established and, and you're playing like bigger clubs or

nicer performing arts centers, small theaters, it, it's important to know

how much it costs to put on your show.

And, and typically when, when I make an offer for somebody at a

500 seater, I'll write down a menu of how much I'm gonna spend for

advertising and ban catering, and how much is the gonna cost and security.

You gotta add all that stuff up to find out how much it costs to put on a show.

So, you know, as the actor, the manager, or the agent, the guy

is charging what he's charging.

Yeah.

once, once you've achieved that break even number with the group's

fee in there, how much is left over?

That maybe you guys can share if it gets to a certain part.

it, it, it really depends on the group.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

depends on the

Mm-hmm.

Well, so as we start landing this plane, tell me what you got going

on, what kind of stuff Danny Zelisko Presents has going on.

You also have a, I believe some a high school project

Well,

well.

high school project is really interesting.

very excited about it.

It's called the Hilltop Auditorium and it's at the Agua Fria school

district in Phoenix, Litchfield Park.

They're, they, they raised a bunch of money and they're gonna build

a high school is going to feature entertainment as far as the curriculum.

you, there, there'll be music lessons, there'll be dance,

art as well as, you know, the typical subjects that you'd have.

But in building this school, you have to audition to get in the school,

you have to have some, you don't even have to be, you know, a great

talent or anything like that, but you gotta show that you're into it.

So you gotta audition, you gotta send in a tape and say, I, I wanna go there for

singing, or I want to go there 'cause I'm a guitar player, or I'm a dancer.

They're building a 700 seat auditorium for, for the kids to play in as

well as to use for national or worldwide acts to come and play in.

And it, it comes right, right across the backstage area, across the There is

a recording studio and a video studio.

Wow.

could, you could come into this place and I see it as a perfect opportunity for

groups to come in and warm up for a tour.

they, they have this beautiful surroundings and they have the

ability to watch themselves on tape.

And, and, and work things out.

You can get gr students in there to to work on the shows and,

and, and be helpers and learn something about putting on events.

And could stream your show to the world and, you know, you're, you got

a brand here, we wanna give you a song and you turn on Facebook Live or turn

on our YouTube channel or whatever.

And there's a lot of opportunities.

I mean, there's many, many, many more.

You can record an album there, in the meantime, kids can use this, this place

or local bands will be able to play there and play in a really nice, venue.

And, and, and see how it all works, you know, and, and instead of playing

some grungy little club, which are necessary, I love grungy little clubs.

Not nothing against them, but.

You know, you wanna step up to, to the next level and the next level.

And this is a way for people to do that.

So they're supposed to open at the August of next year, and shows will happen

later in the fall as, as soon as the auditorium is complete, they're gonna

finish building the high school first.

So that's a big thing for me.

And, and other than that booking shows in the Celebrity and

over at Talking Stick where I'm working on a few different tours,

And,

uh, of doing multiple dates with people, I like doing that and getting

around and seeing other parts of the country and fun to do that.

And.

I've developed relationships in places like Royal Oak Michigan

mm-hmm.

Cleveland and Chicago, where I'm from.

We're doing shows in Denver.

We come up to do shows at the Paramount, and there's places in California and

Las Vegas and Arizona and New Mexico.

So there's probably somewhere around 15, 20 places that I, I like to visit

when I can get dates with people.

I don't like to go out and, and sponge off of other people's success when

they've had success with concerts, with various acts that I work with,

but oftentimes they haven't played certain markets and I don't feel bad

about asking for 'em, or they might have had a problem at a previous show.

So I don't mind going in and taking over for that as people

have done with me over the years.

So, you know, it, it, it's a different world and it's a different

business for me anymore because.

I used to be that go, go-to guy that got all the arena shows in

my part of the country, Vegas and Phoenix, Tucson, Albuquerque.

But amphitheaters have been built by, by private enterprise.

And you know, it's no secret when something gets popular, big money moves in

Sure.

and they get involved with it.

It's just the way it is.

Well, so as we wrap up, what is just one piece of financial advice

you would give artists, whether they're up and coming new, or whether

they've been at it a little bit?

I would, I would say the one thing that I've seen over the years that a lot

of new bands suffer from when they're, when they're fending for themselves,

is they get so excited about booking a show that they don't go over terms.

Carefully with whoever's gonna pay them.

There's been, I've, I've been a part or have seen so many misunderstandings where

people haven't committed things to writing

Mm-hmm.

that you can pull it out and say, you know, Hey, we agreed on this.

This is what we talked about.

I wrote it down.

You signed it.

contract.

A lot of people don't wanna be pushy about that.

There's a lot of theater or club people, not, not real super legitimate

ones, but ones that are at that level don't wanna sign anything or they

don't wanna put anything in writing as badly as you need to play live.

If somebody doesn't wanna memorialize something with you, don't play.

Mm-hmm.

Because chances are, it's gonna be an ugly experience if they won't

do the simplest and most rational, reasonable thing, which is to agree.

There's so many moving parts around this anymore with, with these, with, with

with computers and so on and so forth.

There's no reason you don't need a lawyer, but write down, you're gonna play on such

and such a date at such and such a time.

So and so is gonna play before you or after you.

They're gonna charge $5 or $10, whatever they're charging to get in.

How long are you gonna play?

Do you get guess?

Will they give you a sound check?

All that stuff that makes your day or breaks your day, make

that agreement in writing.

When you talk to somebody on the phone or you talk to 'em in person and you

book something, take notes, write it down

Mm-hmm.

it to.

Mm-hmm.

say, do you agree with this?

Whether they sign it or not?

If they won't answer, you don't play.

Just, just get an understanding.

There's no

Yeah.

There's no point in doing things unless your understanding is clear.

Sure.

Sure.

you know the person really well and you've done it before,

Right, right.

Right.

when you're, when you're somebody new and you don't have a lot of experience, can

appear to be more experienced than the next guy by just taking care of business.

Mm-hmm.

is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

I mean, I, there's so many opportunities for misunderstanding out there and,

Oh, I

and if you

mean,

don't have it dialed in.

you, you know, you wanna find that happy medium.

I, I tend to over.

State things sometimes as a result of that happening to me over the years.

And, and if somebody doesn't, you know, the other one is if somebody doesn't

get what I'm trying to get across, I'll keep talking until I get it across

because when somebody doesn't get it they think they're getting it, and

I don't, I can't let them walk away

Yeah,

misunderstanding what I'm trying to get across.

And, and that happens a lot in regular life anyway.

Much best,

Mm-hmm.

his business.

Alright, every show we wrap with what we call final riffs.

Short questions, rapid fire answers.

We're gonna jump to it.

You ready?

Go on.

All right.

Who was your biggest musical influence growing up?

Beatles.

All right.

What band or artist will you never get tired of listening to?

Beatles.

Beatles

And, uh, I, I love King Crimson

King Crimson.

Yeah.

and,

Yeah.

I love John Prine.

Mm-hmm.

I, I have a lot of favorites.

I love Bonnie, uh, I love Jackson.

You know, I, I love, I I love Chicago.

I love Danny Seraphine, I love groups who have Alice Cooper, who,

who just established these great relationships with years and years ago.

And, and we're still friends or we're still even working together in

Yeah.

Yeah,

and there's nothing like, I mean, that's one of the reasons

I stay in this business as long.

'cause if I don't, I'll never see these people again because they keep working.

They

yeah,

they won't stop and sit down

yeah.

it.

So if they're gonna work, I can work.

Okay.

right.

That's right.

All right.

What was the first album you ever bought?

Uh, it, it was the Four Seasons, and then I found out that they would

replace records if you broke 'em.

And the, my record broke and I traded it for Meet The Beatles.

I told Frankie Valli that, and he almost slugged me, but, you know,

I mean, I, I got all the enjoyment I could outta that record, and

it was, it was crushed already.

Anyway, then I broke it and I couldn't believe they exchanged it for me.

But that was the first, first album.

And then I told you The Puff Dragon was my first single.

Not sure why that.

I mean, I love the song.

I still do.

And I got to work with them quite a bit over the, over the decades

there in eighties and nineties.

And they were great.

They were just so much fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alright.

If you weren't doing music, what would you be doing?

Well, I would've been a baseball player, I'm sure.

Yeah,

I'm really sure of that.

I, I don't know, you know, my dad was an electrician.

He wanted me to do that, and I, I wasn't interested in it, you know,

but than that, I, I'm not sure,

yeah,

can, I'm definitely a good writer.

I wrote a book and, and I think it came out really nice, but I don't know

that I could ever do that for a living.

That's,

yeah,

really, that would be really hard.

yeah, yeah.

All right.

Well, Danny, that was terrific.

Thank you for being on.

I appreciate all of the insight.

I think it's.

Neat to hear so many sides of the industry, you know, and yours.

Yours is a pivotal piece of the industry that everybody

needs this piece of it to, to

It's,

do the live music side, you know?

it, it's, a fascinating, you know, thing when you think about it that.

I mean, this is, we're local promoters are the ones who, it's

kinda like a puzzle of the country.

You, you can't be on the ground in every city, especially for a new

group when they're first coming out.

But when you're that guy that's there, that receives them, when, when the groups

are getting their first rise in their

Mm-hmm.

and, and you're, you're a pivotal part of making that experience good for 'em.

And, and by the end of the tour they, they compare who they did the best with

as far as attendance, who treated them the best, who they wanna come back to.

And, and the, the amazing thing is, is when I look back and I've got

stacks of papers with with shows

Mm-hmm.

that list all the different shows that I did, and I look back to

the eighties and the nineties when I was doing a ton of club shows.

How many groups there were that that came out one time I booked

them because it was from that agency

Mm-hmm.

game is that smart agents are not only resting on their loyal laurels

with their superstars that they helped create, but they're signing new bands

and, and then they have a network of promoters to send them through across

the country or around the world.

And, and that system will, I believe, will always be in place.

The record company system changed just like Uber changed taxi cabs.

Yeah.

always gotta be somebody be in that town to promote you and, and it's

your job as that person who's risking any money and spending the time that

you could be doing something else.

You should be involved with their career pretty much forever.

And, and if there is any, not regret, but lament, I guess, about

what I'm doing is that money meets music and changes everything.

you know, I I mean it's like I can't compete with somebody that

can throw in an offer for 30 or 40 shows, but they're riding on my back

and my history and my hard work.

And they, they don't wanna include you in there anymore.

In fact, they'd rather you weren't in the business.

Mm-hmm.

you're an obstruction.

I'm not talking about anyone in in particular, but there's obviously

a few, few big companies out there that are guilty of that.

And, and in some cases they're very kind and they listen when you make your

pitch and say, I belong in that date, sometimes you get in, sometimes you don't,

Mm-hmm.

You know, for what I'm doing.

And, and it's, it's a, it's a weird little nuance of, of the business.

like my old guys.

I

Mm-hmm.

doing shows with the people I've known for 30, 40, even, even 50 years.

They still gotta make a living.

And there's nothing like, it's like old home week when we get together.

So from that aspect, I really enjoy it.

And I don't, I mean, they play for other people.

They play for new people around the country all the time.

But I particularly enjoy a guy who, who doesn't walk away from people because

they got older and they're not number one

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

still have fun, you can still make money and you can still

entertain your audiences.

'cause there's people out there that never forget.

And remember when, when we were in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties,

we didn't have these cell phones.

Yeah.

we didn't have the distractions that everybody else had.

You know, focused on listening to music and exchanging music with our

friends, going to shows and all that.

And now you can, know, find out so many different things just

with the press of a button.

Yes,

it, it's a different world for sure,

yes,

but music will always be important.

And so

yes.

And live music at that, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

like it.

There's nothing like going to a show.

and, and seeing, especially seeing somebody that you really like, or the

music, the, the performers themselves, it, it's, it's a great experience and

you know, I'll be doing that forever.

And I think that's great for the musician to remember is that get

out in front of people, get out in front of people, meet your fans.

Be good to your fans and, and I think you'll succeed if your fans

are your driving factor, right?

And you

without 'em none of us

Yeah,

are anything

that's right.

Well, Danny, thanks again for being on the show and for everyone listening,

if you want a steady way to fund your music, head on over to my website at

1024wealth.com/music and grab a free ebook called A Musician's Guide to Infinite

Banking shows you how to keep your money accessible, keep growing compounding,

smooth out the feast or famine times, and self-fund releases over time, tours,

gear, and just help you succeed throughout life, financially on your own timeline.

If you're ready to talk, book a call with me and we will talk through it.

Meanwhile, subscribe on your favorite podcast app.

Share this with one musician who needs to hear it, and we will see you next time.

Danny.

Thanks again.

Until then, keep your money working and your music moving.