What does it mean to teach and talk about race and racism in our education systems? What does it mean to be White in academia?

Here we sit down with Dr. Amy Hillier, MSW, Associate Professor at The School of Social Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania with the following outline:

What is CRT look like in your classrooms?

What are we getting right and wrong about CRT today?

What are White students saying in classrooms about race and racism?

How do we translate ideas into praxis? Do you see a role in emotionally and physically locating and embodying ideas?

Do you think de-centering Whiteness supports or undermines Derrick Bell’s concept of interest convergence?

Dr. Hillier's research has focused on historical housing and public health disparities including mortgage redlining, affordable housing, healthy foods, park use and access, and outdoor advertising. Her most recent research focuses on transgender youth and their families. With Dr. Stephanie Boddie, she co-directs The Ward, a research, teaching, and public history project dedicated to sharing the timeless lessons about racism and the role of research in affecting social change based on W.E.B. Du Bois’ 1899 book, The Philadelphia Negro. Her teaching has focused on similar topics as her research. She led the required two-course sequence on American racism within SP2’s social work program and has taught courses in city planning, urban studies, public health, and social policy focused on equity and social justice. She is the founding director of the cross-school graduate LGBTQ certificate and, with Dr. Beverley Crawford, co-created of the online course, The Penn Experience: Racism, Reconciliation and Engagement.

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Instagram: @the.spillway | Facebook: @WithoutSupremacyorShame

For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org

Mentioned in this episode:

The Spillway Community Guidelines

1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.

So like I flash forward.

And I think about when I moved out to the East coast and start talking

about race with people, there was always the immediate reputation or kind

of like stereotype around folks out West and the Midwest that we're just

stupid, that we just don't have the same education or that like an East

coast education is just so much better.

Um, and I think that

yes, yes, yep.

Yep.

That was a big thing.

It, our, can I call AMDA by AMDA or should I not call?

AMDA by AMDA.

Our, where, where we went to college, if you will, the first time, um, you

know, I'd say it was from Texas and they were like, oh, that education system.

Oh, okay.

Is that people in that like assumptions that they were making, part

of it was only semi true, and that we had very different, uh, like social sciences.

We were learning very different things.

And so even, even when we think about science, like we could go out and look

at mountains and go look at geology in a very different way than you could

back east and well, like and vice versa.

Right.

But, um, one of the major conversations that I kept having was,

uh, that I didn't know the intricacies of the Civil War as much, because I knew

because that wasn't taught to me in the same way that it was back East because

it actually happened back East and Colorado was never part of the Civil War.

And so when we were talking about like the history of Colorado.

All right.

It's not us.

That seems, that seems true for me also, but I don't know if I'm just like

latching on to your memory or if, yeah.

Cause we spent, I mean a ton of time not to roll my eyes because

there's a, you know, but we spend time learning about the Alamo.

I don't know.

I was busy sweating.

I was busy sweating through my shirts.

I'm thinking of, you know, about sex.

Probably.

I have no idea what the movie with John Wayne

It's a

movie?

My gosh.

You should watch

The only thing I know about the Alamo is from King of the Hill.

That's all I know.

You know, more than I do.

Um, yeah, they were.

I dunno, it's one of those.

We were probably trying to steal something and then, and

then we got stuck in the Alamo.

Everybody died, everybody got killed.

Um,

but I don't know why

is that why you have to remember it?

"Remember the Alamo?"I feel like that's the tagline.

I even went there.

Like I know it wasn't, it was for Daria's wedding.

It wasn't as a kid.

I never went there, but Daria I got married and in San Antonio and I

even went there and I still don't

know

this, you know how I don't remember dates or names or any

like really important information

that, yeah.

Wow.

Was it good way to put it?

Yes.

Yeah.

There's no judgment.

There's absolutely no judgment because I am with you.

I am with you 100%.

There's some stuff in Colorado.

I'm like okay it happened so excited.

Oh, another fucking mining town.

Cool.

What did they mine for here?

So exciting.

Although there was, oh, there was this one.

There's this cannibal Alferd Packer I was so terrified when we went to go

visit his city where he lived and ate.

people.

He like ate like one person cause he was like starving to death and dying.

Um, oh,

was that person dead already or was it an on-the-road

Probably already dead.

100% will be dead and offered back.

And Alferd Packer was like, I just need sustenance to live so

I'm so hungry.

We went to this restaurant where they like named like the

cheeseburger, like the Alferd Packer victim or stuff like that.

And I was terrified that I was going to be next

I was like a little kid a hundred years later, so, and it's just

like the fear of that Alferd Packer

I just feel your pit sweating.

Cause you're like, oh my God.

Oh my God.

hello.

And welcome to The Spillway podcast.

I'm Loran

and I'm Jenny.

LoranWe believe three things:

hurt people can hurt people.

White people are hurting

and are healing as possible.

This is a podcast devoted to understanding the complex

nature of living as White people in

America.

Without supremacy or shame.

A few months ago, I started an organization, The Spillway around

supporting White people to work through perpetrator induced, traumatic stress

or pits and intergenerational trauma.

And I offer this service with the acknowledgement that healing work is just

one mechanism within a larger network required to sustain our collective

movement towards racial justice.

And that I seek to grow these services rather than redistribute

where we put our efforts in funding.

And to get this message out there, I have asked one of the most

compassionate ferociously tender, hilarious and incredibly smart humans.

I know she's the most smartest Jenny Skinner to join me

on this podcasting journey.

Jenny and I come from similar yet separate backgrounds.

And importantly, we offer incredibly different perspectives sometimes just by

who we are as people and other times by the different identities that we hold.

We are committed to building compassion, understanding, empathy,

and patience into the present and future of Whiteness and White culture.

We cannot change the past, but we can change the future through

the actions we take today.

And we seek to embody that through the work of James Baldwin,

Sonya Renee Taylor, Kazu Haga Resmaa Menakem Kai Cheng Thom and countless

others asking for White people to in so many words, get our shit together.

And since The Spillway there's been consistent feedback, sometimes

within the same space that White people are engaging this work with

closed hearts and closed minds,

this work can be difficult and beautiful.

It isn't an exercise in vulnerability and unlearning perfectionism with

real-world consequences in an age of seven, second judgements.

We hope The Spillway and our living in it can give others the courage

that is needed to join in this way.

We know that attempting

to be vulnerable and consenting to learn in public

is incredibly terrifying work.

And yet we have to start somewhere conversations of race and racism.

Aren't going away anytime soon and given our incredibly different places in the

world that we're trying to create a middle ground where White people can get together

and talk and create action around the paradox of being White in the U S where

we are simultaneously the perpetrators and the victims of race and racism.

We seek to embody the work of countless activists of Color.

Who've been calling White folks to seek our own healing around race and racism.

So here we are two White people committing to the work of individual

and collective healing around race and racism for White people.

Healing ourselves is no one's responsibility, but our own let's heal

together and grow to stop the impacts of race and racism in the lives of

people of Color and our lives as well.

Welcome to our podcast.

Last episode, I asked Fred Jealous if the key to racial justice was

more education or more relation.

And he simply said "both" so often when we talk about preventative services

within race and racism, we immediately look to education as the magic key as if

all of the book clubs in the world that sprung up in the summer and fall of 2020

following the murders of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd would forever change the

trajectory of the racial equity movement in the U S well, it didn't hurt either.

It was as if we could mentally untangle the emotional and

embodied knots of American racism.

We could intellectualize it.

And if we're only thinking about it, we're not feeling it.

And that's exactly what a lot of White people like to do when

it comes to race and racism.

I think this is why we struggled so much as conservative White people with the CRT

question in the school board elections in 2021, we can talk about race sure.

As a historical artifact, but we can't.

Well, we actually should legislate that there shouldn't be any emotional component

to educational units on race or racism.

But I think this is also where we struggled to as liberal White people

and that many liberals that I interfaced with much like conservatives didn't

actually know the tenants of CRT.

We just knew the talking points handed to us from either the media or our book club.

As it currently posits, critical race theory, doesn't translate into a reality

understood by many White Americans, beginning in Ivy and Ivy + schools

throughout the 1970s and eighties.

The crux of CRT was born in tandem and opposition with critical legal studies, as

affirmative action marginally, increased enrollment of students of Color in

universities, still educational systems.

Hadn't updated their studies outside of the interest of White populations

and mainly led by students.

CRT slowly took form to create meaningful action around schools,

ostracizing curricula, and the colorblind culturalism of Reaganomics

and colorblind culturalism is primarily understood as the rights, social and

political movements to counteract the advances of the freedom movement.

CRT varies widely from scholar to sect to industry.

Yet CRT's three foundational tenants serve as these touchpoints

between the multitudes of theories, around critical race studies.

First is racism is commonplace.

Racism happens every day.

Second White people dictate the terms of racial liberation

through interest convergence.

Third race is socially constructed.

This list is introduced in "Critical Race Theory: an Introduction" by Richard

Delgado and Jean Stefancic in 2017.

And it is served as required reading for many schools of social work

and departments that study race and racism across the United States.

There is tremendous truth in each of these statements, if they exist in isolation.

And if a society doesn't change.

And this brings about our first guest on The Spillway podcast our

first guest ever to talk about how we talk about the evolving nature

of race and racism in society and how we do that in the classroom, the

college classroom, to be more precise.

Amy Hillier MSW PhD as a social worker and an associate professor in the School of

Social Policy and Practice also lovingly referred to as SP2 at the University of

Pennsylvania, her research has focused on historical housing and public health

disparities, including mortgage redlining, affordable housing, healthy foods, park

use, and access and outdoor advertising.

Her most recent research focuses on transgender youth and their families

with Stephanie Boddie she co-directs The Ward, a research teaching and public

history project dedicated to sharing the timeless lessons of racism and the role

of research in effecting social change.

Based on W.E.B.

Du Bois' 1899 book.

"The Philadelphia Negro", her teaching has focused on similar topics as her research.

She led the required two course sequence on American racism with an

SP2 social work program and has taught in city planning, urban studies,

public health and social policy focused on equity and social justice.

She is the founding director of the cross-school graduate LGBTQ certificate.

And with Dr.

Beverly Crawford co-created the online course, the Penn Experience: Racism,

Reconciliation, and Engagement.

It's so great to have you Amy.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks.

Very happy to be here.

First question that we have, where did it go?

Is Amy, um, talking about race and education has become increasingly

controversial, approximately 75% of White conservatives and 25% of White liberals

think talking about slavery and our history of racism in this country is bad.

So how is that?

How do you approach that within your classrooms?

Um, that's a great question and I don't have it.

I don't have an easy answer.

Um, I would say with humility because doing it and doing it well is not.

You know, it's not something I take for granted.

Um, and I, you know, I started teaching classes about racism, not because I was an

expert, but because I needed help sorting through my own sort of lens on the world.

Um, and I think that my answer to that question is shifting I've,

there's been times where I've just wanted to be a self-righteous

liberal and say, "this is right.

This is what we do.

That's wrong and get on board and, and, and I'm not going to budge."

Um, but I think, um, I had a colleague just, um, introduce, which is Fugitive

Pedagogy, which is about Carter G Woodson.

Um, and, and the basic argument, which I haven't read this yet.

The basic argument is.

The Blacks learning to read was, was, was out of bounds in terms of education.

Um, and that, that, that teaching, teaching Black people in public schools

and, and, and you know, much less teaching civil rights history, and about slavery,

much less teaching, critical race theory.

So, you know, there's a, there's a very long history of resistance.

So I think seeing, seeing what's happening now with legislators across

the country, kind of playing politics with what's happening in my classroom,

in your class, You know, to think of that as is, you know, that's resistance

because, because racism is so strong.

Um, and, um, you know, to think of it is, um, you know, part of, we

can't just being right, is not the answer addressing that resistance is.

Um, so if I'm not down with doing that, then I've no business

doing this kind of work, I

guess

When you talk about that resistance, Amy, do you think that

these policies that are out there, you being an author of some policy yourself,

do you think that this policy has any kind of, um, some time, some distance

that it can stay in the, on the books?

Or is it going to be overturned immediately?

Ya know, that's a great question.

I mean, similar with, uh, you know, the, the policies around trans kids,

um, there's some pretty terrifying, um, you know, abortion rights.

So there's a lot of changes that we could be seeing.

Um, and I'm, you know, I'm always optimistic.

Um, but optimism has, has not sort of guided, um, you know, has I, haven't been

on the right side of sort of things in terms of, I wouldn't have predicted all

of this happened in the last few years.

So, um, you know, I do worry that this might be a larger pendulum

swing, um, uh, you know, a larger form of resistance, um, and, and.

We, um, you know, it might, it might be affecting their reality and at least

in some places around the country for a long time, w what it seems to be is

we're having extremes where we have, you know, I'm pretty protected at a private

wealthy university in the Northeast.

Um, and my kids in public schools here in Philadelphia, um, are, are learning

like everything I want, you know, we, there are no restrictions on our teaching.

So I really worry that state by state, um, we can have very

different public education.

Um, and you know, families may be, may have to move.

Um, and it may start to influence where, you know, where people go to

college and where people want to work.

I am.

I'm definitely worried.

What about you,

Loran?

I feel like.

Uh, I'm really confused as to what's going on with the conservative side of pieces,

especially the, from, from my growing up in the nineties and early '00s, the

conservative angle was always freedom and Liberty, do whatever you want to do.

Just make sure that you're not hurting anyone else.

And so now that there's this anti Liberty or like anti freedom framework, um, that's

like taking over the conservative side, um, specifically the Republican party.

It's rather unsettling.

Uh, only in that, like I used to know who I was talking about when

I talked about Republicans and I'm seeing the shift happen over my

lifetime over how we're defining.

Certain political parties and it always just didn't make a lot of sense

to me is how Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, seeing the Republicans that

I knew in the nineties or 00's when I was first learning about different

political ideologies or parties.

And it's, it's fascinating to watch that happen in real time, but also to

not know that you're like witnessing it real time, you kind of have to

like sit in it and then kind of turn back and reflect a little bit.

So, yeah, I'm, I'm terrified.

And also, uh, I'm really curious as to where this is going because

I-- don't what's the end game?

And do they think that this is going to be permanent is something that, uh,

kind of keeps me up at night sometimes.

I really don't know.

You know, and so at some level, like I can dismiss a lot of the conservative

pushback as being, you know, just trying to rally troops get votes.

Um, but I also see some of it is like, you know, and so critical race theory,

like the tenants of critical race theory.

Like should be very threatening to people who hold privilege that's

based on race and whose wealth is based on sort of being White.

Um, and so at some level, I see that this sort of increase in resistance is

showing that people get it that, that, that White supremacy, like we really

are serious about attacking some of the, you know, the basic tenant of, um,

you know, privilege in this country.

Um, you know, and, and, and, and maybe, maybe this is the last, you

know, th the, the la the last big sort of resistance, or maybe not, maybe

it's just, um, one of, you know, many more decades of, um, pushing back

against, um, you know, civil rights.

Um, you know, especially, I think maybe the most disturbing is actually

the voting rights, the, the pushback on voting rights, because that's,

yeah, that's, there's, there's, there's such implications and it's so.

Um, I think so disturbing, especially for folks who fought Jim Crow and,

you know, in the south and, uh, you know, got the, got the right to vote.

Do you think that, uh, the role of CRT or it's kind of scapegoating as it's

happening and legislatures across the country, do you think that that's kind

of, uh, misdirected by what CRT is, or are there misconceptions about what are there

good or bad stereotypes about what CRT is?

I do think that at some level, no, one's taking the time to read, you know,

Derrick Bell or, you know, folks who are foundational to critical race theory.

Um, you know, because, and I, and I've had colleagues liberal, like liberal

colleagues and academics push back.

Um, and i- if, whether it was from a practical standpoint or

it was a more deeper theoretical.

Um, so I, you know, I do think that there's a superficial sort of knee jerk.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a convenient, um, it's a convenient

way to, to, to, to resist.

Um, because I think when people read it, it's about, it's about

understanding racism as ordinary.

And that's not the same as saying White people are evil and always have been.

You know, to feel guilt.

Right.

But, but to say that racism is ordinary, um, is to accept that there's a long

history, you know, it's ordinary and it's, and it's not anywhere.

Um, and that, that the, that, that there's one White self-interest in,

in often in, in civil rights, uh, you know, concessions, um, and that Black

voices and the voices of people of Color should be privileged to listen

to, and people would live to experience.

Um, you know, and so in some ways I feel like these are just such basic,

the tenants of CRT are so basic, um, to, to my understanding, um, and to, you

know, a lot of, you know, contemporary authors that, you know, people are

taking the time to understand it.

You know, that said, I do think for, for folks who are deeply invested in

White supremacy, that, um, Critical race theory is threatening and

it should be seen as threatening.

Um, and the fact that it's made its way into, you know, public

schools, um, I think is shaking the foundation for, for some people,

Amy, I'm wondering how we hold the contradictions within these

conversations about critical race theory and thinking about what Jenny was saying.

With the, with that data at that said that, you know, about 75% of Republicans

don't want us talking about race or racism in public classrooms, um, or

that liberals, at least the ones that I've been speaking to couldn't or

can't actually name what the tenants of critical race theory actually are, but

still want them taught within public schools, uh, these contradictions around

CRT, how do we make sense of them?

Uh, or how do we try to reconcile them within this larger conversation

of racial equity and justice?

We're all full of contradictions and we have this capacity, I mean, I think

particularly White people and, you know, I clearly identify as White being here that.

We have these brilliant defense mechanisms, right.

That protect us, like why, you know, why do I have all the material

wealth in the world that I do?

Why do I have all the comforts and privileges?

Right.

I have all these defense mechanisms that protect me and, and, and

some of those are racialized.

Um, so I think that, you know, White liberals are as full

of full of contradictions as, you know, White conservative.

Um, so it, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense.

It, you know, a lot of it is irrational.

It's not, it's not consistent.

It's not, I think most of us do not have a consistent ideology that, you know,

that, that runs through our parenting, like how we treat one another, like how we

teach, how we vote, like how we, you know, and, and I, you know, I see this with,

you know, when, when, when you challenge parents were in my peer group, around

their kids, Public school privileges.

Right?

You see those contradictions, you see those?

Wait a minute.

Aren't you for equity?

Well, well maybe, but, you know, so, so yeah, I think that that's,

that's how I would understand it.

That we're all full of contradictions.

And, um, so looking for some consistency, isn't going to work, but, but

understanding where people feel fear, um, and it's not something that, you know,

we generally take time, you know, we get angry, like I get angry at people.

Um, but to really take the time and say, let me understand your fear.

Like what, what, what is, why do you feel so insecure in this world?

You know, where I go immediately, personally is shame.

That's where I go.

Instead of fear, it's shame as a, you know, I would consider myself liberal.

Um, but I go immediately to, to shame and, and self,

um,

I don't want to say hate, but that seems too strong for where I am now, but I have

in the past, definitely hated myself for everything that I, that I benefit from,

you know, in terms of race and racism.

And, um, that's my knee jerk.

Of course I'm working to change that, but, uh, because that doesn't help

anybody, but yeah, that's, you know, Amy, you're talking about fear and I

was thinking, oh man, you know what?

Mine is

shame.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wonder how shame and or fear is showing up in the classroom right now,

when we're talking about race and racism.

Amy.

Do you have any experience with that?

Yeah, and I mean, in showing up, not just among students, but among faculty.

Right.

Um, I'm really, I had, I've had a tough run, like as a, as a teacher in the

racism sequence, both teaching online and then in person, um, and you know, a

lot of growing, but a lot of pain, um, a lot of, sort of anxiety on my part.

Um, some shame, um, and disappointment in myself, um, you know, and,

and being ill at ease a lot.

Uh, and I remember that was in the class.

You know, 20 years ago that I teach and it was during the OJ Simpson

trials and I White person from New Hampshire had grown up and gone

to a predominantly White college.

Like I was, I just, I felt, I felt so clueless and I, so I think, I think,

yes, I think that that shame and fear showing up, um, not only for White

students, but a lot for White students and some of it looks like I'm afraid,

I'm going to say something mean or hurtful that I don't realize, or I'm

going to say something inappropriate.

And so I'll just, you know, I'll just be quiet.

Um, and some of it ends up coming out as anger, like resentment that you're, you

know, that, that, that I'm somehow, you know, you're trying to, you're trying to

rewrite your near the narrative, right?

Like we've along what we, you know, we grew up with some version of a

narrative about US history and about our ancestors, you know, our White

European ancestors or our other ans-.

And.

You know, to come in and to have on pack that, and it, it forces us to change,

you know, our sense of, I think not just who we are as Americans, but who

we are, you know, within our family and within our, you know, as individuals.

Um, and that's so such hard work, um, in class today, or it's hard to create

a loving environment for that to happen.

You know, people talk about safe, but I'd say like a loving environment.

It's really hard to do that.

Um, um, especially across race, across class.

Um, and the last thing I want to do is ask students of Color and particularly

Black American students to come in, you know, and to be gentle with everybody,

because it just seems like, you know, like we, you know, an inappropriate ask.

Um, and so, you know, Loran, you know this we've, we've moved to a model

that we have classes across race, and we have some racial affinity

groups to try to create a space.

Th that can, that can do some of that, that work, um, with White people.

Um, and I feel like we're just starting to lean into how do we do that?

Well, which is why I'm so excited about The Spillway.

Yeah.

That's one of the things that I love the most is, um, Loran has created

this space to have those conversations, to explore these feelings, like the fear

and shame and other things that come along with being a White person in America.

And, um, Take it off of the doorstep of people of Color.

Because I think when, um, you know, George Floyd died, there was a lot of

White people reaching out to people of Color being like, what can I do?

And, and that caused its own problems.

And so Loran has made bravely, made this space where we can come in and have

these conversations like we're having now, which I think is really wonderful.

I think it's also hard too, because Amy, as you were talking about

trying to create a loving space, that's consistent what I'm trying to do with

The Spillway and especially the social media pages for The Spillway and they

have become anything but that in that, as soon as we start talking about

race, then, oh wait, you're racist.

Because the person who was talking about race is the person who's racist.

Um, and racism doesn't exist anymore.

It was on death's doorstep and you're bringing it up again or "thanks.

Obama, everything was fine until Obama".

And so there's this huge push there's huge pushback that race,

um, should remain colorblind.

We should go back to colorblind racism.

That was so prevalent in my, at least my socialization.

I still remember growing up in Grand Junction, Colorado, there was a bus

stop poster and there was this, um, like a conference table and there

were two like cutouts of people, just the, the shadows of the mis-.

Silhouette.

So you can actually see them.

And one person said, o"h, ask that person over there."

And then the other person said, oh, "ask that Puerto Rican person over there".

And then they crossed out the word," Puerto Rican".

And then underneath it said, "a person is just a person."

And I remember like thinking, "oh yeah, person is just a person that person's

not Puerto Rican, they're a person."

And that was so foundational for me and how I started to think about race.

And I could barely even start to read at this point.

I think I probably had to have a parent translate this for me.

And so what the, what was on the sign.

Um, but I am, I'm thinking about, it's a weird tangent.

Um, I'm thinking about, um, creating space, creating love, um, and making

sure that students, our clients or people who are like entering The Spillway or

even our classrooms Amy are doing so in a way that they are also feeling that

there's value there, that there's value in their vulnerability or within, well,

I guess let's go back because in one of these other episodes, Jenny and I

were talking about White women tears.

And can White women cry.

Um, and so is it possible for White women to show up in a classroom

setting and cry thinking about racism and how it impacts us as White people

or how it impacts folks of Color?

I know the, the, the, what the reference to White women's tears, and I've

heard it in several different, several different contexts, including a chapter

in Robin D'Angelo's book, White Fragility.

Um, and I feel like there there's so many different levels, right?

So the, the level of White women showing shock and dismay, um, you know, like the

realization, like, you know, some of that can, can, can, can be burdensome in a

classroom and, and, and White women being called out and then being the ones who

are somehow the victim, like I know those two things can be really problematic.

Absolutely.

There has to be space, right.

To cry about, you know, whether it's what happened under slavery to Black,

you know, to Black Africans, to, to what ancestors did to the implications

for us today, to how hard it is to have these conversations, to what

it's like to go home, to name your state and have Thanksgiving dinner

with family that are so objectionable.

Um, so.

No, I think that we're all.

Yeah.

I think there has to be room.

We have to make room.

I have not my classroom.

I think that maybe the White affinity space might be a better place for that,

because I think that's vulnerability.

There has to be, there has to be room for anger just as there is

room for Black women's anger, right?

If that's sort of the stereotype White women's tears, Black women's anger.

And for, for, you know, for Black women to cry.

And I say women because most, you know, most of the people in our

social work classes are women.

We have increasingly a number of trans and non-binary folks too.

Um, and a few male men, but it, you know, it really is social

workers is dominated by women.

So, um, you know, if we're talking about vulnerability, creating room

for vulnerability, um, yeah, I think we absolutely have to make room

for the the anger on the tiers.

This reminded me of the, uh, the ability to be on zoom and go to

zoom classes for the past two years and engaging in social change conversations

in the comfort of your own home.

Um, and being able to tap into that from your kitchen table and

how that can feel almost easier to tap into that vulnerability.

And this was just my train of thought, but that I went directly back to, uh, the

work that you did on The Penn Experience:

Racism, Reconciliation, and Engagement.

work that you did on The Penn Experience:

You actually could.

work that you did on The Penn Experience:

Could you just explain a little bit about what this project was?

work that you did on The Penn Experience:

Kind of the implications of this work too, and what they, what

work that you did on The Penn Experience:

they've shown SP2 and Penn Dental.

When, you know, it was typical of my career, you know, there was,

there was an idea that, you know, sort of was workshopped and actually

came initially from students.

And then one that I ran with with another faculty colleague, but that

has morphed into something much bigger and into more interesting than we could

have imagined as the world has shifted.

Um, but we.

In our setting, um, in, in our program at The School of Social Policy and Practice

our social work students take a two course sequence in race about racism.

And the second one is more intersectional and looks at gender and social change.

Um, but you know, two full semesters required.

Um, and it there's been conflict with that.

We've taught it for 50 years, like five, zero years, and there's

been conflict and limitations.

Um, and it's, it's the kind of thing that's never, you

know, we never quite get.

Right.

Um, but always trying to grow the course, um, and students of Color.

And I say some other and White students who were more, um, we're more customed

to talking about issues of race and racism were, were lamenting that so many.

The students came in and now this was, you know, mostly they were White students

and young students coming in who had no preparation for the conversations.

Right.

They were new to the conversations of the idea of White privilege and White,

um, um, White supremacy and, you know, a new to understanding about slavery, about

their families and how they've benefited.

Um, and that it just made it, it made it really hard to talk.

In the classroom and to watch sort of folks having the steep learning

curve and other people who were at a different point in the conversation,

um, you know what, I'm simplifying it, but, but basically it was a class.

It was, it was feeling really it wasn't working.

Um, and so what the, some of the students suggested was that we have a

pre-course that everybody, before they start to racism sequence, everybody has

some, um, basic introduction to issues around White supremacy and racism.

And so we created an online class, um, and we were thinking

an online asynchronous class.

So mostly for efficiency.

So before anyone started in, initially it was social work and

then it became dental medicine.

We teamed up together that we wanted to have folks at least

introduced to some basic concepts.

We wanted people to know about, um, history.

Um, scientific racism, um, and, um, other forms of racism at Penn at the University

of Pennsylvania, we wanted people to know about issues in Philadelphia.

Like, you know, like what was the slave trade like in Philadelphia?

People don't think about that, um, necessarily.

And what are some of the current ways that racism plays out?

Um, but also like implicit bias and microaggressions, um,

colorism, xenophobia, antisemitism.

Um, we wanted folks to know have a basic understanding of all of these concepts

before they came in the classroom, you know, so we put together in a package.

Expecting resistance, right?

I mean, not necessarily resistance to the critical race theory that was embedded

in that, but just resistance to forcing everybody to do this before, um, you

know, and create carving out space.

Um, and, and then George Floyd was murdered and Breonna Taylor was murdered.

Um, and we had in Philadelphia, You know, by that, that summer, um, all

kinds of protests, um, and police response and violent police response.

Um, so the context in which we launched the class was very different from

the context in which we created it.

And it meant there was no resistance, right.

There were, everybody was desperate.

Like everybody is desperate to like, we need to do anti-racism

work and oh, you have this course, let's, let's run with it.

Um, so we're, we're, we're heading into our third year of doing it.

Um, still not meeting a ton of resistance.

Um, but, um, now I'm forgetting what your original question was about it.

Um, that's really great and really helpful.

Um, it was, uh, I think it's, what are you learning through this process and

how are, how are White people receiving this or what is the kind of feedback or

the experience of the White students?

Uh, and possibly even like White faculty.

Yeah.

So there's been overwhelmingly, we've had positive feedback.

Um, you know, and, and the students, you know, we have majority White

students at, in, in these, both of these schools, um, significant Chinese

population like Chinese born, um, that's the biggest nonWhite population.

Um, and then, you know, a number of, um, US born people of Color as well,

like sort of in the, in the mix.

And then overall we've had pretty positive response.

Um, we definitely, um, had some feedback that we weren't talking

about anti-Semitism in a appropriate way or a thoughtful enough.

way and some of that frustrated me and some of it, I learned a lot.

Like I had a lot of conversations with folks.

People have had to teach me a lot about how to do that.

We, um, you know, in terms of resistance, you know, some of it.

Was able to dismiss a bit, but, you know, I think it's given me more empathy.

What is it to be politically conservative, um, and to have different ideas about

racism, how much of this is ideological?

Like, can we really say, everybody needs to know about critical race theory?

Um, you know, and, and, and there was a little bit of feedback that said

that, you know, definitely a small pushback that, that, that we're selling

some kind of selling, uh, like, uh, we're, we're pulling a, up a particular

towing, a particular ideological line.

Um, and I'm sensitive to that.

I mean, What the academy really still needs to be a place of,

lots of, um, competing ideas.

Um, there are some people who complained again, very few of outright

feeling oppressed as White people.

And I, you know, I think that's part of this larger narrative and I was not

particularly sympathetic, um, to that.

Um, but the other stuff I've learned is just, is like how people learn, right?

So this idea of people being home alone to do this in some ways, I think we

created a non-threatening environment for people to do at asynchronous,

like in their home, in their pajamas.

Um, Th th th they weren't confronted, they weren't an inter cross racial classrooms.

Um, they weren't having anyone to challenging them.

They weren't having a faculty member, challenging them.

They weren't having microaggressions is that, you know, experiencing

microaggressions as they're trying to learn about this.

But interestingly, the biggest, uh, feedback we've had the most

common comment has been, I want to have discussions about this.

Like I want, you know, in-person, I want to sit down on that's really how I learn.

Um, so, and whether people will actually do that as we create

opportunities for that, because there's, there's more discomfort.

Um, but I think, you know what, I guess I'm really recommitted as an educator to.

To grow in, right?

Like move beyond this sort of gray consciousness.

And we definitely had some of that.

Like, what am I, I don't know how I'm supposed to answer these questions.

Like, what's the right.

How do I get the right answer?

How do I get the maximum amount of points?

Like, no, this is not what education is about.

Right.

I don't care if it's graduate professional education or it's preschool, right?

It's about growing and learning.

And some of that's growing and learning about yourself, you know,

and that's part of your, whatever profession you're going to go into.

Um, so how can we create a space where, where, yeah, we really, we really

facilitate and promote that mindset that, you know, the growth mindset.

I mean, this is, you know, some of the literature about how you teach people.

Um, and making them to be open-minded about learning.

Um, so, and, and I think that also hits on some of the themes that

you all are talking about in terms of like, how do we not, how do we

not raise everybody's defenses?

Like how do, how do we make, allow people to feel vulnerable?

Um, and how do we, how do we increase people's tolerance for discomfort, right.

Because, and, and, and say, just because talking about race feels

makes you feel uncomfortable, like, you know, to lean into that, right.

To lean into that discomfort, that that's where the learning is.

Um, you know, I can't say we succeeded in doing this, but I think I have much more

clarity about, um, about, about, about, you know, where to push and what kind of,

uh, environment that you know, that I want to, I want to help create for learning.

Right.

That was really powerful.

You mean, can I say that before I continue on, um, you reminded me when you were

talking about the role of the teacher, the role of the professor in the classroom.

There's been this meme that's circulated specifically.

I remember it around the CRT elections from this past November.

And I had to pull it up on my phone here.

And it says, if your students know your political affiliation,

you have failed as a teacher.

Teachers are there to help students think for themselves, not think like

you, and I've always felt like this is wrong, but I also feel like part of it's.

Right.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this.

I'll repeat it again.

If your students know your political affiliation, you have failed as

a teacher, teachers are there to help students think for themselves.

Not think like you.

I think it's, I liked, I liked the, I liked the kernel of

truth in that like, absolutely.

Um, but I teach social work, right.

So I teach social work.

And, um, in the Northeast, you know, at a private institution, um, in a, in

an overwhelmingly Democrat, you know, democratic party, democratic city,

um, I'm not, I'm not getting, I'm not getting, you know, the general population.

Um, so the idea that I would, I could somehow present myself in that setting

is, you know, without making clear, you know, who I voted for for president or

how I stand on some of these issues, um, to me seems, yeah, just impractical.

Maybe if I was in a Nebraska high school history class, like, like I, that might

feel a little bit, you know, public history class, but I also feel like,

um, like students, I feel like students even graduate students are so hungry.

To see their teachers as people like to see their humanity.

So the idea that I'm going to show up without my values,

that feels like empty, right?

Like I, I think I'm, I'm less concerned about political party.

There's, you know, there's very few people who identify as Republican,

who, you know, are, you know, end up in my classrooms, but, um, I

identify as Unitarian Universalists in terms of my religious faith.

And I'm, I feel like that's what I'm, I'm careful about.

Like not pushing or proselytizing, but, but I also feel like I've started

to say it at least once, like, just to sort of say, this is who I am.

Like, I'm bringing my whole self, I need you to bring your whole self.

Um, you know, and I, you know, and I, I, I, I hope I will have

the judgment to when, when, when there's too much of me in that space.

Um, and I'm, you know, and I'm sure there's been students who thought, oh

my gosh, she layed on really thick, um, as the parent of a trans kid, right?

Like, or as, um, you know, as a, um, you know, as a social worker, as a,

you know, liberal religious person.

Um, but yeah, I, I, so I, so I will not make any apologies for

wearing my, uh, ideological heart on my sleeve in my classroom.

And you said something and I I've lost exactly what the

words were, but, um, that meme.

I agree with both of you.

I think there's like, you know, that little bit of truth in

there, but it also assumes right.

The educators aren't people, you know, that they're just here to impart

information, um, like facts, if you will.

And that's it.

And, um, that's not any of the professors that I've or teachers

that I've had in my life.

Who've made a difference to me, um, had that passion, you know, to, to

bring in a little bit of themselves as much as they felt comfortable with.

And I think it makes a difference to how you receive information, right.

And that we could, I love that you were talking about impartiality

to me being impartial or being.

Objective is such a White construct.

This power of, oh no, I can actually remove myself from the situation

and be this neutral observer.

I don't think that that exists.

I don't think it can exist.

And I think that it exists, um, as a form, as a rule, um, to exert a rule, um, rather

than saying, oh, Hey, I'm a human too.

I'm fallible.

Uh, I have, I have a vested interest in this too.

One of the last things that you were talking about though, Amy before we

wrap up, as you were saying, uh, to lean into uncomfortability, White people

need to lean into uncomfortability.

And I'm wondering as I think a lot about critical race theory to me,

one of the second tenants after, uh, racism is commonplace, right?

Racism happens every day.

The second I always think of with Derrick Bell is interest convergence.

And ththaten.

Uh, true equity cannot take form, cannot take place until White.

People sign up until White people sign on board and say, oh yeah, this is

actually in my interest too, um, I am hurt by racism or I think our school

should be desegregated or, oh, wow.

We actually look really bad to the Russians right now.

We should probably sign this 1964 civil rights bill so that they

stopped doing some anti US propaganda.

What is the role of trying to, or like, how do we reconcile interest

convergence and asking White people to be uncomfortable to de-center

Whiteness from the conversation?

How do we hold these things simultaneously?

Or can we, or should we not be, is there maybe a fault happening or not

Intriguing question, you know, and I take critical race theory as, you know,

as a lens, not the only lens, but a lens.

At least, at least as we look at policies and histories, personal motivations.

But if we look at sort of big changes, like the 1964 civil rights

act that this, this idea of interest convergence is really helpful, right.

To power can, you know, power people do not give up power, right?

Like people have ways of protecting power and they may look like

their concessions to civil rights.

Um, the, the, the call for decentering Whiteness.

Um, I I'd like, I don't want my White students to take that as don't

say anything in class, like don't speak up or to a person of Color.

Um, what I wanted to, what I want de-centering Whiteness to be is just to

an awareness of how you, as a White person who may have been socialized, you know,

in, in spaces, private institutions, you know, elite institutions like

Penn might make it easy for you to.

Jump in and answer a question where might somebody longer hasn't

been sort of socialized in those spaces to speak to, to just, to

just be aware, like, am I speaking?

Cause I have something really thought full to say or am I speaking because

it's really comfortable for me.

I feel really comfortable in this classroom, in the dead space.

And so I wanna, fill it, I, you know, I don't want White people to shut up.

Um, you know, I do think that listening to folks of Color is, is a big part of it.

And, and, and, and, and, and reading things written by people from different

perspectives is a big part of it.

Um, but I don't, I, yeah, I don't know if that's an answer to your

question about how you can reconcile.

This idea of interest convergence and de-centering Whiteness.

Um, I think it's more shining a light on, you know, and Dubois

talks about this, where it's W.E.B.

Du Bois wrote "The Soul of Black Folk" which most of us know brilliant book

about what it is to be Black, um, and to be considered less than, you know,

and everywhere that he turned, but he also wrote "The Souls of White Folk."

Um, and, and he it's remarkable that, you know, somebody who's

writing, writing so early.

So this early 20th century he's writing about, like, we just acknowledge

that Whiteness is something that, that, that it's not just about

anti-Black racism, um, that why does it, he didn't use White supremacy.

Um, but the.

But the people use their Whiteness all the time.

And I know that is part of my insulation.

As I walk over out through an institution like Penn, uh, which is, you know, a tough

place to learn and to be in, to navigate.

Um, and yet I do it with relative comfort and that's because, you

know, I figured out how to do it.

And a lot of it is because of my, I think my socialization as a White person,

um, that makes that relatively easy.

In starting The Spillway, trying to be really intentional

about not wanting the space to feel unloving like we were talking about

earlier and for, it to feel safe.

And so often the feelings of discomfort don't feel safe or they don't feel loving.

And it reminds me a lot of bell hooks who was talking about our expectations

sometimes as people to never experience or never want to experience any kind

of friction or, uh, Upset within our relationships as if we've never had that

with our partners or with our family.

Um, because it's part of the inevitable and there's no relationship that it's,

it doesn't have a few rocky roads in it.

Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you expanding on that.

Um,

yeah.

And I think just, just the role of conflict, like you talk about that, the

role of conflict, and then that's one of the beautiful things, Loran, about

knowing you and that, that there there's been conflict in ideas and pushback.

And for me, it's led to a lot of growth.

It doesn't, you know, that's not the same as being uncivil or yelling

at each other or mean, but I think this idea that there can be conflict

and disagreement that we all need to increase our tolerance for that.

Right.

Right.

And tolerance for grace in those situations too.

Um, I was just thinking about a lot of the thing we've talked about that fear and,

um, that lean into the discomfort makes me think of, um, you know, how prevalent

cancel culture is and how prevalent, um, how much it plays a role in people not

being willing to lean in, um, to that discomfort because they're scared, um,

and White, White people, but everyone, you know, at least I believe that it

plays a big role in people not wanting to

lean in.

Thank you for saying grace.

I that's such a, a lovely word.

Right.

And not one that I think of in this context very often.

Um, and yeah.

Right.

It's it's, it's, it's, it's not one that we use in the university,

whether it's within faculty, because just what's playing out among

students in the classroom, plays out among faculty all the time.

They, these tensions and sort of, you know, generational and

intellectual and ideological and, um, across race and, um, the theories.

And, um, yeah, I just, I, I think that's a really, um, I'm gonna,

I'm gonna carry that with me.

That idea of Grace

Loran's

taught me a lot about grace.

I'm trying to actually embody it myself.

Cause I feel like that's one of the things that I learned so much in

college and everything so much through my life, but then how do I embody it?

How do I put it into my muscles, into my bones and then breathe and

do it and then feel it rather than just over intellectualize, anything.

And that I feel like is where The Spillway.

Just like natural extension of, oh, wait, there's no space to feel this knowledge

to, to actually like sit in that and try to like, try it on as much as you can, um,

in a space that is loving and graceful.

So, I mean, the last question we have is, um, if you could say one

thing to White people that are listening and what would, what would you say

We can do this.

You know, we, we must do it.

We Must do it for our children.

Um, you know, we must do it for are the people of Color we know,

and we don't, we don't know.

Um, and we must do it for ourselves.

Um, I think, you know, you talk about the shame, the fear, that the only way

there's no way around this, there's only through this and, um, So there

is, there is no liberation for any of us without moving through this.

Um, so let's, yeah, let's find ways to do this together.

Amy, thank you so much for joining us today.

This is my pleasure.

It was such a nice way to, to yeah.

To spend the afternoon with you two.

And I look forward to, um, I'm just, I'm so excited, Loran, and I'm just

starting to like catch on to like this work and what it means and um, yeah.

It's uh, it's it's yeah, it's really, uh, having a great impact on me.

So thank you.

And Jenny was a delight to meet you.

Thank you so

much.

I like how she, wasn't afraid to say that she had been wrong in spaces

or not wrong, but like hadn't expanded fully or was still a work in progress.

I've really appreciated that because so often where, when you're a professor

or, you know, whatever you are, you're expected to be perfect or whatever it is.

Right.

And I really think it speaks to her, um, ability to make changes

as an educator that she was able to be like, yeah, I didn't.

I went in and I didn't do this, or, well, yeah, that made me mad or, you know, just

kind of, um, yeah, I really enjoyed it.

I learned a lot.

I learned I could totally imagine her being just a great professor

and someone to learn from.

Yeah.

It was really lovely to see and to hear, especially ever like

just coming out of grad school, a professor being so vulnerable, because

that is so very rarely the case.

It doesn't ever really feel like there's an emotional connectivity that

you can have, especially when you're talking about such huge topics, like

social change and within social work.

And I think even when, like, when she was talking about being your full,

authentic self showing, showing up in a classroom, like how can you not do that?

Right?

Like how can you teach without?

Okay.

And I think, I think a lot of people think that teaching is just like, well,

here here's a timeline of events that have happened in the world or here's how

you solve a problem equation, whatever.

And then all of the introspective work, I think people probably apply mostly to

art or theater teachers or music teachers.

Right.

When, when that heart and that soul, that she exhibited exhibits in her answers, it

has to be there in whatever you're doing.

Like any, any, any professor who's made a difference in my life, whether

it be math, science, you know, has believed in and loved what they did.

And when you believe in and love something, you can't help,

but bring your passion passion

to it.

Nope.

Nope.

You cannot.

Uh,

yeah, I just really appreciate it.

You know, I guess in my head as a college dropout, I feel like a lot of people who

are academically inclined or professors.

Have a know, it all kind of feel to them, which in a way I think they do

know because, you know, they spent all this money on education and that's

where they spend their lives then.

But I think a lot of it too is, um, and, and a fear like that, same

sort of where that fear and shame comes from to be like, I don't know.

What do you think?

Which was what Amy, I think did so well was she was just like,

I'm just starting to understand what this means and what this is.

And it's, you know, she was really taken with it and she was willing to dive in.

And I, I think that's speaks volumes of the type of person she is and

the type of educator that she is.

Right.

I was very impressed.

And I think too, that there's, uh, it's like push back of.

This is White privilege that you didn't have to have these

conversations earlier, or that yeah.

You can be newer to these conversations, but that's because you're White.

Amy.

I think in, as a White person is showing me, yeah, we can be late

to the party and we're showing up.

Yeah.

And we're showing yeah.

And we can hold these multiple truths at the same time.

Yes.

There's this privilege that's occurring.

And, uh, Amy is doing a lot of really amazing things.

And then how can I embody that and try to then do that in my own work and

taking risks in that could potentially, you know, make her career

harder, you know, make her trajectory and her career more difficult,

but saying, this is what's needed.

This is the work that's needed.

These are the spaces that are needed.

Um, and using her privilege is such a weird word.

Uh, but e-- but I guess using that for lack of a better word, to, to

open up these conversations and have the conversation that we.

Right.

That's advantages.

I think the

Advantages,

right

yeah.

Um, for me, going through social work programs in both the

undergraduate and graduate levels, you are taught to have empathy, compassion,

and understanding for your clients.

Doesn't matter who your client is.

You're going to have those things,

right?

You need to have

those things, right.

And that's the National Association of Social Workers, Code of Ethics.

It's just what you do.

You have an ethical standard to meet of care.

And if you don't meet that care, then people can file grievances

against you as a social worker.

And so it's not necessarily what to think, but it's, yeah, it is.

It's a how to think, but it's a, what to think.

It's an oh no, every person has value.

Every person is precious.

Every person is precious.

And I think Fred taught me to love, and Amy taught me to have courage, you

know, to, to look at situations with an amount of, of like, okay, that's

scary, but how am I going to enter it?

You know?

Yes, I'm afraid or, you know, whatever, but how, how can I move forward into it?

But I think both are

needed love and courage in the role of racial equity

ab-so-freakin-lutely yeah.

Those are two amazing points that I definitely feel as well.

Yeah.

I feel like with Fred it's about, for me, I think yes there's love,

and I think there's also the, the unconditionality of the human existence.

Oh, yeah.

That to me, like it's really hard.

And then with Amy, there's just so much change that she's been trying to enact

both within her own life, but also within the university and within her classroom.

But it feels like change is almost limitless or like that

our power is limitless and that power power is not limited.

The whole concept of power is a social construction.

And so if you say that you don't have power, how can you tap into it?

How can you build a connective power?

Uh, and power is only limited by your imagination.

Like, yes, there's like political power, there's social power,

but then there is your power.

One of the things that I learned in law school, it was from, uh, Stacey

Abrams, uh, "Minority Leader."

Uh, and she talks a lot about power being infinite.

Uh, the having limitless power means being a citizen with moral purpose to ourselves.

We are not in traffic.

We are the traffic and that distinction, uh, defines our ability

to harness and, uh, actually like embody our, our sense of power.

And I, I really think that Amy is like our time here with Amy really

drove that point home for me today.

The, the limitless ness of our power as compassionate

understanding empathetic patients.