Buckle up for a heady one. Quinn and Kelsey put their minds together to investigate the terrain of victimhood. Parts of this conversation might feel a little inaccessible to those with less fluency in the nuances of the Human Design system. Lean into the mental stimulation, or let it wash over you!

Your Victimhood Psychopomp hosts discuss:

• The distinction between victim-y feelings and victim consciousness
• The relationship between early childhood trauma and ones tethers to victimhood
• The shift from “why did this happen?” to “what is here?”
• Feelings of victimhood as normal, transient states
• Awareness as psychopomp: traveling between realms inside and outside of victimhood
• Using human design as a tool for understanding our differentiated experiences in victimhood: intersections between undefined centers, emotional waves, signatures themes, and rave psychology
• Finding softness in the inevitable experience of victimhood 

🧪 This episode's Lab Partners:

• Quinn is a 4/6 Emotional Manifestor
• Kelsey is a 5/2 Emotional Manifestor

You can find more about them and their other lab partners at kelseyrosetort.com/labpartners, including bodygraphs, natal charts, and ways to connect with their work.

💖 Stay tuned: New episodes of LAB PARTNERS are released weekly-ish, usually on the Moon’s day.

Intro & Music by Noah Souder-Russo

The laboratory is a space of intimacy and mirroring. I'm just gonna rip with it and see what wants to come out.

Something's happening. I was just thinking that.

A lab.

Partner is someone who I can share.

My incomplete, uncooked, unfinished work with.

Laboratory feels like a laboratory in general is a womb space for all of.

We are mothering and creation.

I'm having an embodied experience vibrant in this container so far. Relating in ways that feel energetically congruent for me. Relating to other people and relating to myself and collaborative community as a human.

Will help me find the lightness and like the humor.

The creative process is fucking dope and also it's fucking like humbling.

To fall.

Apart and be witnessed by all of us.

An incubator, a place to generate, to initiate, to guide, to mirror collaboratory stretching my capacity.

Lab Partners is a behind the scenes conversation series amongst eight folks who are in a season of experimentation with creativity, authenticity, relationship, collaboration and visibility. We're letting you in on our processes as we unpack them together.

Each of us speak the language of human design and some of us astrology as well. These frameworks for awareness have supported our embodied differentiation and relational understanding.

We invite listeners to observe us through these lenses too.

View and me, Kelsey, 5:2 emotional manifester with too many channels to say but definition in single. Single definition in six centers. All but the head, Ajna and sacral and I have power, view and innocence, motivation.

And we think that these things might be of interest to you as you listen as we swirl around the topics on this episode. But don't worry about memorizing all of that.

You can see our designs, our whole body graphs as well as our natal charts@kelseyrosetort.com LabPartners where you can read more about both of us and our other collaborators as well.

How am I?

I also never answered how I am.

Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

I'll go first. I'm going to tell you how I am by telling you what I just did. So I recorded. Have I told you about Quality Time?

Okay, so I recorded an episode of Quality Time.

Was it your first?

It was episode three.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, we're in. We're in it.

Who are you on with?

Oh, Mel, I don't think you know Mel. Mel Glaze five one Ego Manifestor.

No, I Don't.

Yeah, yeah.

Mel was actually the first episode of Quality Time and then we both had so much fun and felt like we had so much more to talk about that Mel was like, can we do another one? So then I did episode two with Caitlyn, who, you know, Caitlyn Mason from the Venus fan.

And then Mel and I just did episode three and I think episode four is gonna be with Toland. But yeah, so that's been really fun. It's been like separate obviously from lab partners, but in many ways like similar spirit.

And Mel and I just talked for two and a half hours and like just felt so good. I feel so. Like I had kind of a rough morning when I hopped on with Mel. My.

How am I included me saying that I've been in kind of a peace drought and I feel very peaceful now. So I'm just really reflecting this season on how much I feel nourished by just really dropping into deep, meaningful conversations with people.

And it's felt scary in some ways, vulnerable in some ways, disorienting in some ways to be like, that's mostly what my work is right now, is dropping into those conversations with people and then sharing it. And it feels actually so good.

That's mostly what I'm finding out from this season of experimentation with podcasting in this way, is that this is exactly what the fuck I want to be doing. And I don't understand yet how that works in terms of resource and structure, but it's happening anyways and I love it.

So I arrived to this lab partners episode with you already feeling just totally open and dropped in because I just got to have such great quality time for the three hours preceding this. And I'm just excited to keep going because I don't know when enough is enough.

But also that's part of the beauty of our, like, of our life in these bodies, in these non sacral bodies is like, because we don't know when enough and enough is enough. That's like part of the magic of like, we're going to fucking drop in.

Yes.

There's no limit.

I know. I was thinking about when you said that you were on a call earlier. I was like, you're warming up your voice and your brain.

And I like had a day where I didn't talk to anybody all day. And so on my drive home, I was like out today. I went to, I guess I spoke to people at the estate sales that I went to.

But you know, there's like not brain power to me asking about their haunted Antiques, you know, it's just, it's very simple.

Yeah.

But I, I was on the phone for a bit with Claire today as well after we had a nice long talk last night. My. My bff, Claire. Um, and yeah, we just had like, even more catching up to do. So I feel like I got to.

To warm up my goodness a little bit, my brain somewhat.

Yeah, I feel very warm. So I'm sure I'll.

That'll be an asset to our conversation at the beginning, but I'll probably get tapped out before you so you can hold it together for us in the end. Once you're fully warm, you've got it. I feel quality time. What'd you say about quality time? You're excited about it.

Listen to it.

Oh, yeah, it's been really fun. I, yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with quality time and with lab partners and just with all the different ways.

I'm just like dropping into fucking realness with folks in this season and like seeing the grid work of it and the world building. It's so dope. I'm so.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna miss the most about collaboratory. I mean, I can't say that I don't know what I'm.

I miss the most, but one thing that I'm going to greatly miss is just like this regular deep conversation engagement, which I feel like is not necessarily going to go away, but it's like, yeah, getting that, that quality of connection in my day to day, outside of having a container like that, it's just like, it's a little slimmer. I think we can all say that because there's just more regular life to do.

But at the same time, I know that we're all going to keep having conversations and I also, I don't know, I went to. There's this thing that happens because of this cool astrologer who I met in the past year.

My sister introduced me to her, but she's an astrologer and a tarot reader and she started something called Cosmos Club in my little corner of the world where we meet up once a month and talk about astrology. And I'm getting her on human design a little bit. We're gonna do. We're doing a trade.

I'm gonna do a reading for her and I got an astro tarot reading for her the day I got back from New York to see when I was with Noah. So lovely stuff. But, yeah, Cosmos Club was. Was this past Wednesday at the full moon and was the full Moon in Taurus. No. Yeah, Taurus.

And then Scorpio season, we have this little opposition thing happening. But yeah, in the. Going around and introducing. I work within astrology a little bit, but I work within human design, a lot of it.

So that actually led me to meeting two people who were there who are also into human design. And I'm like, oh my God, I don't have IRL people for this. And that's very exciting for me.

And that's why actually, you know, that's why I have so many things to say about when Noah and I were in New York and we went out dancing. But.

But like one of the most valuable and fun pieces was like getting to actually talk about human design on the ground in the field with each other and like noticing things that we noticed and whatnot. And I went out with Amalia and like got to like get their perspective on. On the mechanics of the situation that we were in. And it's just.

It's very fun. So.

Yeah. Well, I'm remembering the last time you and I talked. We talked a lot about my like the gray area between discernment and aversion to in person hangs.

Like I had so much to assimilate from what it was like to be in person with so many people that speak the language and were watching the mechan. And then I initiated in aura that fall, which I think might have started on November 8th.

So today might be the three year anniversary of Inaura, which is crazy. And that was a wild experience.

And I feel like, you know, like when you do psychedelics, you tend to have a pretty long period of time where you're like integrating from. Felt like that.

And I feel like those two intense experiences were like so rich that I am maybe just now like integrated and assimilated enough to be like ready for something like that again. But not quite that more discernment. But yeah.

How many people were at Agonora?

I think it was like 20ish. Somewhere in that range. And we all were staying in one house. Yeah. And it was like a very open house. So the energy was like bonkers. Bonkers.

No corners to settle in.

No, I mean, kind of. But yeah, no, it was really intense. It was definitely a psychedelic trip. But I mean, so was collaboratory. So is Collaboratory?

Yeah.

That's also been a psychedelic trip.

It truly has been.

Okay.

One of the ways I like to start these convos, although we have started, I don't know at what point, but we're in the episode already, I think is just, like, stating the intention of arriving here. Like, what. What was the topic that carried us to wanting to meet in this way?

And also for Quinn and I, it's been weeks of will they, won't they on a lab partner's recording?

Months. I don't know.

That might be true. Yeah. So it feels very good. It feels like a nice release to finally be here doing this with you.

Yeah, I feel that too. It's like. It's like an exhale, but it's also like a breath of fresh air at the same time.

Yeah. It's like the. I've been in such an experiment with emo timing lately and how it's like.

And I have a defined route, so maybe there's like, obviously there's differences in how this kind of stuff is going to feel for us, but, like, I'm like, I know that something's going to happen, and there's these moments where I'm like, it might be tomorrow or it might be eight weeks from now, and I don't know. And then I'm just like, like, trying to navigate timing. And it's been. Yeah, it's been really. It's been.

One of my favorite things about collaboratory is, like, the group permission to trust the timing and not force things.

Even though, I think, you know, we all sometimes still force things because we are all still ourselves with our not selves right there and wherever you go, there you are, et cetera, et cetera. But I've really enjoyed getting to experience what actually happens when I relax a bit more into, like, divine, organic timing.

Which, yeah, I guess means today is the day that we're finally destined to.

Talk about a victimhood. Feelings and victim consciousness.

And is there a difference between them and where do they exist and when do they exist and what's the process and where do we come into these feelings? Even in collaboratory. Even every moment of every day. Yeah.

Complex nuances of the experience of being both a victim and awakened to our non. Victimhood all the time.

Right.

And this was something that at the very beginning of collaboratory, I actually had sort of set the intention out of writing a lot, like a whole big thing, like using as my project as like my main project, talking about, like, my own experiences, understanding my victimy feelings and my. We'll talk about it. But like, I, I, I, I feel into a difference between victimy feelings and victim consciousness.

But I was going to write about my experiences moving through vict, big and small ones, and I ended up sort of rerouting to do this project that I'm doing about raves and electronic music and techno and tai chi and human design and everything. But this conversation feels very, like, rich and important to me because I've thought about it a lot.

And then the other interesting thing is you and I have discussed how much our orientations to these ideas have changed in the past few months.

Yeah, I'm like, trying to track for me when the seed of like, talking to Quinn about victim consciousness began because it's like, what's the word I'm looking for it pre. Originates. That's not. Predates, Precedes. Predates, I think is the one that I was searching for. It predates collaboratory quite substantially.

So the conversation that you and I are having today has actually a lot of history and context behind it, not just in our own systems, but relationally as well. I don't know if I could pick it in time. I guess I would guess that it was like, at some point during the year we were in the Venus Fan. I don't know.

I'm curious what you would say about that because, yeah, I'm curious if you even could put time on it.

Where would you place in time a significant shift from you for you, in your experience of like, identifying with and attaching to the part of your truth that is victimhood? Is that a, is that a okay way to ask that question? Because I think.

Are you asking, like, when it sort of like, came into my awareness, like, the ways in which I was participating in those feelings and then the ways in which I was like, oh, I want to sort of, like, work with this a bit more.

I think the way that it is coming, the like, visual I'm getting today about this is like, about victim consciousness is like, we actually don't get to context. Too much context. The visual I'm getting is like, we can be in the stories of victimhood and we can be outside of them.

And once we access the vantage point that's outside of them, we don't get to not. It's not that we never get are in them anymore and we get to escape them fully, but we get to also have this other perspective on it.

So I think, yeah, the way I'm kind of asking it today maybe is like, is there a point in your life in Your process at some point in the last several years, where you felt yourself accessing that outside perspective, vantage point on your victimhood.

And I'm wondering, yeah, if there's any way in time or in your experimentation or whatever way feels organic, you could orient me to when and what that was or just talk about that access.

It's so funny. You're asking a manifester about time. I'm like, I have no. I don't even know what. What day it is or what time it is, or I know it's dark out.

That's about what I know. And it's not dark for you. So we live on a different coast.

It will be soon.

Yeah. I remember where I was.

Wow, that's interesting. Tell me about that.

The first realizations I had about not being scared to touch it anymore. I remember because I was doing laundry at my sister's bed and breakfast. I was doing, like, I was working, washing sheets and towels.

And it's a long process. I was listening to a podcast down there, and I really wish I could tell you what it was.

I actually really wish I knew what it was because I would love to go back and hear what this catalyst moment was for me, but it was about, My guess is three years ago. Okay, so it was about. It was about trauma and.

And a lot of, like, my victimy feelings, I think, come down to that and to how I've felt about, like, the various traumas that I've experienced specifically early in life. Because I think that, you know, everything builds off of. Off of, like, the. The things that happen first. Right. And this podcast, I had.

I had previously had a huge aversion to accepting the trauma that happened to me. Like, I just. I was like, why should I? Why do I need to. And I was very much so in the place of, like, why did this happen to me?

That was the only thing that I could focus on was, why did this happen to me? And this podcast, I don't know the person, the way that they were talking about moving through childhood trauma.

Just, like, they said things that, you know, I had read before about, like, the importance of this acceptance and where it can sort of lead you next. And, you know, every time it's just like, no, like, I'm fighting this really hard.

But the way that they talked about it was really inviting you to the table with them. Thinking about my. My talk with Amalia. That will be on Monday. That will be released on Monday. Inviting to the table.

That was the episode right before this one. Yeah.

And, yeah, I just felt like, oh, like there's a seated at the table for me. And this is being described to me in a way that I don't feel like I've been wrong for being in the mindset that I've been in. And I don't feel, feel.

I feel just like encouraged and not pressured to enter this new way of thinking about it. And so it was from there that I started to really, like, really process this thing that, that had been just like a cage around me or something.

Or like, actually what I'm picturing is like a big monster and I'm in the shadow of it, right?

And it was from here that I was able to start thinking about the ways in which I was on, on a really consistent basis, living in victim consciousness. Not about the trauma, sure, about the trauma, but not about the trauma, but about everything.

And to give like a concrete example of it, it was like, you know, I know that I've referenced the, the coffee shop situation to you many times.

At this point it feels old because it was four years ago and it was so long ago, but it was just like, that was a big thing that I thought back on a lot. And so what happened there, dear listeners, is that I, I had just moved to a small area, a small community.

A decorum existed that I was not fully like, I was not privy to the ways in which we engage with each other as a small community. And there was a coffee shop that I'd gone to a lot and I like, peripherally knew the owners through mutual friend.

They were like, we had mutual friends and all of this stuff. And I had like a couple really bad experiences there, which I, you know, at this point, four years later, I'm like, what is a bad experience?

Was it a bad experience? But like, I had experiences that to me read as like, bad.

Gave me like, like rejection feelings and gave me this like real sense of self righteousness about the ways that I was being engaged with at the coffee shop. And I wrote a, I wrote a review and it was like, it was like a quote unquote bad review.

It was like, I still gave them three stars and the review still opened with, they make the best this and that, however, you know, but it was that moment that, that and this. Like, I had just righteous anger for, for a while about this.

And I, you know, went into the coffee shop like a couple months after writing the review. I had taken a break. I sort of was like, all right, like, like this place I, I'm not gonna go.

And then like a couple months later, I was like, okay, like, I've been a little dramatic. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go in and just, like, act like a normal person. And I went in and I was denied service. I was. I was told, no, you know, it's.

There are not that many coffee shops around me. So it felt like a real, like, blow. It felt like a real loss to not have that. Got access to that space anymore.

And there came a point where I was like, I have to look at, one, my piece in it. Two, how much this has made me feel, like, so victimized.

Like, exceedingly victimized, and how, like, just, like, what it touched upon in, like, their ejection sensitivity area and in the community area. And that was like. I don't know how to say that that that experience was like. It was like a.

Like a full chapter in the, like, how to work with your victimy feelings book that I was, like, writing, you know, metaphorically.

And it was through that in that this was happening sort of like, at the same time that I was, like, there folding laundry, listening to this PODC through this trauma, that I was like, oh, I, like, really don't have to feel this way all the time.

And this is also coming alongside me leaning into figuring out what manifestor peace feels like, because, I mean, there was so much anger that it was, like, very clearly tied to peace in this other end of the spectrum kind of way.

Yeah. So that experience, it sounds like, is like.

I'm gonna go back to using my metaphor for it, but, like, is the first one you had where you were able to watch the entire thing play out both from inside of it and outside of it.

Yes. Correct. Yeah. It took a while, but there came this point where I. It was maybe it was like nine months or a year later that I, like, was.

Was after the incident at the coffee shop that I was, like, really starting to sit in that and. Yeah. See it from. From two different angles instead of one very myopic one where I am literally like, oh, poor me. Like, they're such villains.

I had this whole journey while you were sharing just now that I didn't realize was one journey until the end, but I was, like, taking notes on a piece of paper, and it went from, like, the top left corner of the paper, like, around the page and landed in the bottom right corner. And it's like different things you were saying were making me come back to this thread. And the thread started with, why did this happen to me?

When you said that about your childhood trauma, the thing I clocked Immediately was like, this assumption that there has to be a why and how. That's just, like, so baked into many minds. The assumption that there must be a why.

The next thread I went to was that the why, asking the why keeps us from assimilating. Yes, because it keeps us in resistance to actually, like, experiencing fully the thing that our body, that our soul is.

I don't even want to use language like wanting. I want to find something more neutral that our body and our soul are having.

And then the next thread it took me to is, the question isn't why, it's what as in what is here.

Yeah, and that's exactly what that episode of that podcast did for me. It was like, the why is keeping you stuck.

Mm. And like, what paradigm, what reality, what ontology are we living in? This is even an example of. Of the.

The being inside and outside of the thing right? In and of itself is like, what about our reality insists that there must be a why?

Like, until you consider that maybe there's not a why, you are completely governed. Your whole reality is entirely victim, imprisoned, victim, victim to. Imprisoned by the concept that like.

Like, someone must have done something wrong. I must not be worthy of not this right, this, like, blame, shame, paradigm.

And then something happens, perhaps, that can, like, even just for a moment, free our minds from being locked into that ontology of there must be a why.

And suddenly there's an entirely new potential way of being in relationship to our lives and our stories that doesn't dismiss or negate the experience of victimhood that we have in these moments where we are experiencing disempowerment, where we're experiencing harm, but allows us to be in relationship with them in a way that doesn't deduce. Maybe I don't really know where I'm going with this. That doesn't deduce the experience to wrongness.

It's very threatening to be asked or prompted to move out of the why. It's very threatening, I think, for a lot of people to be. To move out of the why.

Because it's like, well, then I don't have any answers, and I don't know. And uncertainty is really, really, really threatening when you can just sit there and just, why, why, why? Because that.

That's literally keeping you stuck from entering into a place of uncertainty. Like, sure, you're uncertain about the why, but at least it's something to hold on to.

Mm. Something to identify with. It's like the why is somehow a protective mechanism. I don't think I understand entirely How. But I can feel that it is.

Well, I mean, in thinking about the coffee shop situation, like, the why that I was in for the first, you know, little bit after that, before things started to shift a little bit, that why was. Was. It was in an effort to position myself as right and them as wrong. It was like, oh, I can justify over and over and over again.

Yeah. Instead of looking at the part. The words you use, your own part in the relational dynamic of that.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's so interesting how it brings us back to the concept of action and consequence.

It brings us back to that, but from a totally different feeling than when you're stuck in the why. Do you see what I'm saying?

You say it in a different way, too.

Like, your process of letting yourself. Like, relieving yourself of the why, obsession. Ultimately, what it.

One of the things that it resourced you with was the capacity to look at your own responsibility in. In what played out. Like, look at the act. Like, look at what happened based on the actions you took.

And so it kind of brings us back to duality in a way. And, like, responsibility and, like, stakes.

I don't know if that's the right word, but, like, just action, consequence, you know, but it's like, it's still. I can feel the transmutation that has happened because I guess it's like, you wouldn't. It's not.

It's a divestiture back to action, consequence, but in a way that isn't limited to the dis. To the like, yeah. Shame, blame.

Yeah.

I liked it better how I said it first, but there's more context to what I'm thinking about.

No, you saying that the second way gave me the idea of, like, I don't even know if the chicken or the egg on that one. Like, did the release of the why come after or before? Right.

Yep.

Or maybe they arrived at the same time.

Yeah. Throwback to two episodes ago with me and Nick and Amalia, we talked about. We started calling it the shame. Chicken or the egg?

Like, what came first, the shame or the shame? And I feel like you and I are now talking about the inverse of that. The awareness. The awareness or the transmutation of the shame.

Like, what comes first, chicken or the egg?

Do we, like, suddenly have the awareness to look at it from the outside so that we can experience our shame without getting swallowed by it, or do we experience our shame without getting swallowed by it and that allows us to see it from the outside, which, like.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well, what that brings me to which is like, maybe one of our questions today.

I can't remember if we touched on this, but it feels like part of the conversation is like, what role does choice play, if any, in this process of moving through and transmuting, if that's the word we want to use, like victimhood and victim consciousness. But I'm curious what you had before I said that.

Well, I think they might tie in. So I was going to say something about. Well, I also, I think that it is. It's such an amalgamation of so many different things that come together.

Right. Those two being some, some important pieces. But another important piece on that, like in that cauldron is time. Right.

Like the right time hadn't come for me to be able to release the Y and to be able to. And that reminds me of the emotional wave taking time and like how, you know, some emotional waves are very, very slow.

So, like, in many ways I can look at my journey through the start of working through this trauma, this, this childhood trauma to the point where I'm listening to the podcast as just like it's its own entire wave, but it was like, very, very down for a long time before getting to a spot of neutrality.

Yeah.

And so that, I mean, that reminds me of like our, our question about victim consciousness and the lower. Because that's like a macro version of it, right?

Yeah.

But I want to hear, like, I was really called to something you said kind of like just nonchalantly at the very top of this call today of like victimy feelings and victim consciousness and what's the difference? Cause I think that's a little bit what we're talking about right now.

And I'd be curious to hear, because I think when I heard you say that, I was like, oh, yeah, they are. There is. That's a big distinction. But I don't know that I've framed it that way for myself so much.

So I'm curious to hear, like, what that means to you, the distinction between victimy feelings and like, what is victim consciousness? Like, I think victim Y feelings is a little more self explanatory. I'm having feelings where I feel like a victim. But what's victim consciousness?

Yeah, we don't really have a definition for that together or as I don't think there's a big societal, cultural definition of it, but I think it is like one of the most pervasive things in humanity. And really I can speak most toward the United States and the ways in which we all engage with politics and media.

And like, I Think it's like a humanity thing. Like, I think that. And I also, I don't have religious upbringing, but I do think, I wonder if that comes into it at all.

And I know that you had some religious upbringing in a sense. And I, There is, there's a, it feels like a bigger cultural story. Victim consciousness. Right.

Like, and I especially I, I guess to really out of time, but thinking about the United States, thinking about politics and thinking about like Trumpers, Trumpers feel so victimized all the time. They're like living in a victim consciousness where everybody else.

The existence of diversity, the existence of anybody who's not like them is a huge threat. Right. And so like with this threat all the time, there's this like pervasive victim consciousness that I perceive in that. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes total sense.

Okay. And so I guess for me, like victim consciousness is, is, is the, it's opposite of consciousness.

Victim consciousness is the completely unconscious total like marriage to victimhood where we don't even know that we're doing it. I had no idea how much every single day and every single situation I was feeling like a victim to everything.

Walking into a store and not being greeted as a manifesto who had to work through that whole piece to, to everything. To everything that ever went wrong or you know, wrong as in not how I wanted it to go. Right.

And big attachment to like I want this outcome and so anything else is going to make me feel like a victim.

And so victim consciousness, I think is just like the unconscious attachment to these feelings that we don't recognize are victims or victim consciousness. Yeah, those victimy feelings are things that happen to everyone.

Part of the human experience of emotions and certainly often like they may have some legs, like there may be some like, you know, it's a real feeling. Right? It's a real feeling and we all have it. And I think that the difference between the two is that it's a piece of awareness.

So it's like for me, like I find myself in big to me feelings, you know, but there's this different sort of, I can see them sooner and I can work through them sooner. And so I'm not just living in a consciousness.

Yeah.

And having victimy feelings.

But yeah, it's the inside, outside thing. Like that's what it keeps coming to for me.

Like I'm inside of an experience of victimhood right now, but even when I'm inside of it, there's a part of me that can see from the outside of it.

So it's like this is actually feeling like a really important distinction for me for maybe the opposite reasons of why it might be an important distinction for a lot of people. And I feel like there's this thread that I heard come up with you and Amalia that I heard come up in several places.

Amalia and or I have been in the collaboratory and Lab Partners world around, like, with Kamalia. Amalia has been framing it a lot as like, this caveat thing that they brought in to the One Foot on the Roof call episode with you two.

Of like in last week's Lab Partners episode.

Yeah, except I don't actually know what day it's coming out. Hopefully Monday. But episode whatever. 11. I think we're on 12. I think you and I are 12 right now. Anyways, up in head. Yeah, the caveat thing.

I'll just name it because if listeners are listening consecutively, they already heard what I mean, what I'm referencing that Amalia said.

But this thing of like, for me right now, where I'm at, I have to like more often than I have to remember that I'm outside of it too, and that I don't have to be stuck in these victimy feelings or that these feelings are just feelings and just part of the truth and not the whole truth.

More often than needing that reminder so that I can step outside and look at it and feel free, even as I feel imprisoned to the situation, more often than not, I need to remember that I have to go through this sensation of victimhood. Like, I actually need to let myself go back inside.

Like, fully be inside the experience of victimhood so that it can be processed so that my body can be satiated by the experience. Right? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about.

I also, when we were looking for a victim consciousness definition, I googled it and the AI overview is pretty great.

Ooh, hit us.

It says victim consciousness, or victim mentality, is a mindset where individuals see themselves, see themselves as constantly wronged and powerless, believing their happiness is determined by external factors, and others are to blame for their problems. And the word constantly, when I first read that felt really important.

Like, that's the difference between victim y feelings and victim consciousness is that victim y feelings pass in victim consciousness stays, which again, is a. I think this distinction is so helpful for me right now because I get like, the disclaimers, the caveats, the like, I know no one's to blame here, but I think Amalia spoke to exactly this on your guys episode. Like, is like, Amalia said something like, I don't think I'll ever be able to forget. Right. Like, there's no going back.

Once you've kind of awakened to this level of awareness that you are both in and outside of the dream. There's actually. But I don't know if that's true. Like, I will never go back. I know that to be true for myself.

Like, there's forgetting and remembering and forgetting and remembering, but there's a certain extent to which I can't forget anymore. And so I'm curious about that. I'm kind of curious about that. Am I over universalizing to say you won't be able to unsee, we can't forget?

I don't know if I'm. I think when you remember to a certain point, you don't forget again. I think that's true.

And I think maybe what I'm thinking, what I'm seeing here, a new distinction that's arising for me is like, I think some people maybe, I don't know, like, think that they have awoken more than they have. I don't know.

Like, as I'm saying that I'm like, that doesn't really feel like the point I want to make or something that I'm like, like ready to state with any kind of conviction. But yeah, I'm just kind of wondering about, like, the.

What's the origin of this, like, caveat thing and this fear of falling back into victim consciousness? Why does that fear exist?

Because then that stops me from, like, being fully present with my actual feelings of victimhood and the reality of, like, disempowerment and harm and violence that I'm experiencing at any given point, which I don't think it will ever swallow me whole again. Like me. I don't think I will ever be swallowed whole by that. And yeah, I just wonder about the universality of that.

I feel like if I watch you, that is also true for you. I don't think you will ever be swallowed whole again by victim consciousness.

I don't think so. And I think that that's really what I mean when I say, when I've spoken about this in the past about the idea of transmuting victim consciousness.

Right. Like, I've never meant that.

Like I've made it go away, but that just, like it's changed my relationship to it has changed, my awareness of it has changed in a way that that awareness can never go back. Right?

Yeah.

Well, it's funny because you asked like a why question, and I will go back to your question earlier, your statement earlier about the assumpt.

Touche. There must be a why. Yeah, yeah, Interesting. Okay, here's what's coming up around that.

For me, I'm always like, I always have my like binary detector goggles on. I'm like, how. How is the binary trapping me here? And like, what's the. The binary of why is why not?

Or I mean, maybe not, but that popped into my head and it felt significant. Like, why why not? Like maybe why not is an anecdote to the why when it shows up. There's this other piece that feels significant in this AI overview.

I stopped reading after the first question, but it also says this perspective can lead to a persistent feeling of helplessness, a tendency to avoid responsibility, and can negatively impact relationships, work and mental health. It may stem from past tr, trauma or negative experiences where individuals lacked control. And that feels significant.

Feels relatable, for sure.

And it's interesting, the word responsibility in there because I was thinking about the idea of self responsibility a little bit earlier in this call and how self responsibility is something that was not in the mix when I was, for example, in this coffee shop situation. And it's something that started to. I think it's really only hit the mix. Like, I think it's.

I think it was being prepared in the past couple years, but I feel like it's really like hit this year, this idea of responsibility. And part of that, I mean, I can attribute a lot of that to just simply learning about the emotional wave and learning about emotional authority.

Because, you know, alongside these experiences and you know, this, like, hearing of that podcast while I was doing laundry, like, also learning about human design has been a huge piece of like understanding my victimy feelings. Like, huge piece because, like, the wave just is what it is. Yeah, the wave is like, I can't be a victim to the wave.

And in so many ways, like, you know, you stop feeling victimized by your own feelings at that point and you could just like let yourself have. Or I could just let myself have my own feelings more because. Yeah, I don't know how to finish that sentence right now.

The, the self responsibility piece, like, what was really lighting up for me just now, specifically you bringing it up in the context of the me via AI bringing in this piece that says it may stem from past trauma or negative experiences where individuals lacked control. This is lighting up a new nuance of this for me.

That's like, I talk a big self responsibility game, but at what point do we actually become self responsible? Because childhood trauma, not our fault. Right. So at what point does it become our responsibility?

I don't think there's actually a clear answer to that. Maybe actually astrologically, planetary cycle wise, there is. And maybe it's the Saturn return. But that feels true intuitively and also archetypally.

But yeah, that distinction feels significant to me, like stemming from trauma or negative experiences where individuals lacked control. Like there's something that gets imprinted in us when some kind of harm, when we face harm that we had absolutely no agency in, like avoiding.

And there's something I imagine, I mean, I'm sure there's actually people who have done like a lot of research. I'm sure psychology has answers for this. So yeah, I'm sure this stuff already exists and is well known by many.

But yeah, there's just something to that sticking out to me is like, it's the binary, I guess. Like that phrase that is is often gets said that I find to be very helpful. I think some people have issues with it.

But of like, your trauma is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. That that phrase, like that would have.

Killed me four years ago, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's like when does it become our responsibility? And like, and like who, if. If it's not your responsibility, whose do you want it to be?

It's also making me think about. Well, first of all, it's making me think about how so many people, so many people have childhood trauma that they never deal with ever, ever, ever.

And I wonder. Yeah, I wonder about that.

And then there's also this piece where some people, a lot of people who experience childhood trauma do blame themselves and then some people don't. I, my experience was never that I blamed myself really, but there were pieces of it in there that, that like had that flavor.

But I think that that creates like a little difference to like if you have fully blamed yourself for your whole life.

Yeah, I wish I could recall them at this point. They're. They're muddy in my awareness right now. But there's like things in design that speak to that.

There's like several things that speak to whether you're gonna blame yourself or the outside world. One of them has to do with splits, I think, but I can'tboth of us are single definition, so it won't apply here.

And it's like a small split versus a wide split. One of them blames. I think a wide split blames the world. Yeah. And a small split blames what's missing in themself. And then there's this other thing.

I haven't formally learned about, but my friend Carla mentioned it in passing one day and it wrecked me.

I'm still assimilating it, so I don't remember all the details of it, but it's something like depending on what your the top center in your not self hierarchy is, it can either be an alpha center or a prime center. And I forget which is which, but I know the ego is one in the AJNAs, the other one like they're opposites.

So it would be one way for you and one way for me for you because you have an undefined ego, so that's going to be your top not self hierarchy center. It's like you blame well and this sounds different from how you were just talking about it in your experience, but just you also don't have a split.

So anyways, lots of nuance.

But if the undefined ego or another undefined alpha prime, I don't know center is the top of your not self hierarchy, it's like you see your problems as being your fault and if it's the other one, which for me it is because the AJNA is one of the other one. Sorry, I can't remember if it's alpha or prime.

But it's like, like my not self mind that gets trapped in binary and blame sees that sees the world as not safe for me versa.

And like that I was like, that was like the most recent, that was probably like six months ago, but that's the most recent experience I have of like something in human design being like a threat because of how true it was for me in my mind to be like, oh, that's my not self mind that says that the world's not a safe place for me. That's my not like I was like, okay, shit, I'm being read a little bit too much by that.

But yeah, that's just that that's interesting to me to think about even like the nuance of the blame.

Because if we come back to this seed that's felt very fruitful in this conversation of like the assumption that there has to be a why being part of the thing that keeps us locked perhaps in victim consciousness.

Now you're bringing in this piece that I find very interesting of like when you're in the assumption of there must be a why and you're fixating on that and that's distracting you from the actual process of being with the pain, which way do you teeter? Do you teeter towards it's my fault and blame yourself and over taking responsibility for your trauma or do you Teeter towards.

It's the external world's fault, I guess. Like, it wouldn't be victim consciousness if it was the former. It would just. Would that be something else if you blamed yourself?

I mean, so thinking of the ego, like, my. My big tie here is just that I have spent a lot of time not feeling that I have any inherent value or worth.

Mm.

Does that threat that I can see.

Yeah.

Self hierarchy relating to the ideas that we're talking about.

Does that. How does that, if at all? Maybe this is a stretch here.

Maybe I'm, like, trying to fit concepts together that don't organically go together, at least not for today.

But I'm wondering, like, that experience that you have clocked at this point in your experimentation with your undefined ego and the way that that shit distorts your awareness, like, how, if at all, does that feel connected to your experience of, like, feeling like a victim?

How does my experience of my undefined ego relate to my example? Feeling like a victim.

Yeah. Does it. Is there anything there in this moment?

I have to think, well, I mean, if I don't have value or worth, I'm not deserving of help, so I'm going to feel helpless, sort of, if you will.

Yeah. So, like, the why then becomes like, why do I deserve this? Why do I deserve to be stuck here? Why don't I deserve to not have to experience this?

I don't. I don't really think that this line of questioning matters.

No. I have a thought. My thought is that part of victim consciousness for me has been a great desire for someone to swoop in and save me and. Right.

Like, a piece of that comes from the fact that nobody did that when I was a child.

Yeah.

And so from that, it's like, well, you know, obviously this.

This sense of helplessness and not getting help at that point, is it obvious that it leads me to feel unworthy, or is there, like, more explanation in between? Because for me, it's obvious. I'm like, oh, yeah.

Like, I have not felt worthy of support and love and care and whatever, because there's this core, like, very impactful situation where I didn't get that. And so, like, you know, why didn't I get that? Oh, well, I must not deserve it. So why.

Right, Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I feel like I'm understanding a little bit better the whole Alpha prime thing here, because that's not how it feels to me.

Like, there's ways that it translates to that at times. Like, it comes through that kind of narrative. At times. But it's not actually undefined ego wounding that's carrying that message. It's Ajna stuff.

And so it does. Like, I do feel like when I think about my own childhood wounding, I do feel like I look back on it when I. I don't feel a victim to it. I mean, I do.

I do and I don't because I'm here and I'm. I'm inside of it and I'm outside of it at the same time.

But when I am lost in mental fixation on it, trying to understand it overly, the narratives that I have are like, that this happened to me and that it's the world's fault or it's like a parent's fault or something. Like, I. The thought that it happened to me because I'm not worthy of it not happening, or I'm not worthy of experiencing something better.

Like, that is not a thought that I have. That is not a part of the distortion of it for me at all.

It's not so much that the belief. Like the belief is not that it happened because I'm unworthy, but because it happened.

And there wasn't the experience of any way to like, help this child through that, that the belief of worth came in. And also I think that there's something interesting to be said about, like, identity. Right. If we're talking about the ego center.

Keep going.

Like an attachment to the thing, an attachment to the trauma. Because it's like, you know, it's not that it's something that like, consciously or perhaps even unconsciously I like, identified with.

But what I know is that in the beginnings of my process of unraveling this, that came before human design for me. So that came far before any sort of understandings about anything victimy related.

And in that place, there were like certain tidal waves of, like, this is. Oh, how do I say? It's like the. The. There were pieces of it where I didn't know how to not identify with it.

Yeah.

I didn't know how to step outside of it and not. I just like, totally, like, look at my whole life through. And I think that's natural, but for trauma.

But I looked at my whole life and was like, oh, look at all of these places in which I've like, been playing the same role.

Yeah. I mean, it's ego. G. Is that combo, right?

Yeah.

Like, is this who I am? Is this where I'm going?

Yeah.

Like, that's. Those two centers are the part of you. They're the top of your not self Hierarchy, Right. Yeah.

Those two centers and, like, our openness as a place where we get stuck, where we hold onto things and get stuck.

Seven up and centers.

Yeah. But those two running the show of all the like, behaviors and not self of the rest. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Definitely, like, pointing me towards once again, like, definition, privilege, you know, my awareness of that.

I don't want to hear about it.

Well, we just had a conversation at the full moon in Taurus call for the altar calls.

We had one on Wednesday, and we had a really intense convo about openness and definition and how they're just different hards because our openness is always trying to get us to try to negotiate with what can't be negotiated about our definition, which feels maybe like an entry point to our conversation of the emotional process, being emotional authorities in this victimhood stuff. But anyways, bringing that in just to say, like, yeah, I can hold the complexity of, like, wow, Yeah, I can have, like, extra empathy intellectually.

I can have extra empathy for the experience of what it must be to experience, like, trauma and the pain of this world with less definition than I have and less definition in specific places.

I can, like, hold empathy around that while without losing sight of the things that are, like, distinctly and uniquely challenging for me and my design. You know, it's not grass is greener. It's not victim competition. It's just like, yeah, it is the human.

It is the human condition to experience challenge because of this juxtaposition of being both God and human at once.

And the way that that looks and is experienced and embodied in each of us is so infinitely differentiated, but none of it is any more or less sacred or any more or less necessary than the others.

That really makes me think about, you know, in human design spaces online, like, in, like, the big, big groups, how many people feel so victimized by their body graph.

Yeah, well. And, like, it's so funny. People feel so victimized by not being a manifestor, like, early on. I know.

And then we feel completely victimized by our close Dora. So it's like, yeah. Do you get it? Do you guys get it? It's, like, all hard, and our mind wants to make it harder.

No matter your design, your mind has a problem with it. No matter your design, your design being different would not solve the problem.

Mm.

But, yeah, it's so funny. People just want to complain about their design all the time. There's another example, like, because, like, I also complain about my design sometimes.

I have to, like, I have to have those Victimy feelings. There are literal aspects of my design that put me in a position of victimhood at times like that literally happens.

I watch it mechanically and I can't. I'm not gonna deny that those experiences are happening because they hurt my heart and my heart needs to process them.

And I don't wanna stay there either. I'm not gonna stay there. Which again, it's like, yeah, what's the role of time? You brought in time earlier.

What's the role of time and like process, Emotional process in. I'm getting like, yeah, in like transporting us to and from the underworld is kind of how it's coming through. Psychopomp.

I'm always forgetting that word Mercury or Hermes is. Mercury is like the non binary planet. Mercury uses they, them pronouns. It's not a day sect or night sect, planet. It's both.

And some of the mythology around that is that Mercury, AKA Hermes, was the only God who could go back and forth between the worlds of the living and the dead. Psychopomp. And so I'm thinking about like process, you know, and then there's like the moon, there's emotional process.

But then I'm also thinking about Mercury.

We talk about them as being more like mental process, but the mental process is like, none of these parts of ourselves can be fully isolated from each other. Now I'm thinking about the Ajna and the solar plexus together, which has been another big theme in the collaboratory world.

I feel like there's the emotional process and the actual felt sensation, experience of harm and trauma and emotional lows regardless of circumstance. And then there's like the mental process that gets that. I don't even want to use. I want to use neutral language.

Like that happens alongside the emotional. And it's all part of it. Yeah, I lost my way. But yeah, what's the role of the emotional process? Because we do have to. And I don't think.

I think this is maybe true perhaps in a more like obvious non negotiable way for defined solar plexus people. But I think it's probably true universally for everyone that we have to go to the underworld.

Sometimes we have to go to that part of process in order to come out of it. So, yeah, the wave. What does the wave, the emotional wave have to do with this?

Yeah, this is where psychopomp came in, where this journey back to the inside of the sphere and then the outside of the sphere and then the inside of the sphere and then the outside of the sphere. I feel like I have a theory that you can be low on your wave. That I can be low on my wave.

That we can be low on our waves, and that it doesn't have to pull me into, like, mental Maya distortion. Like, I think that's true, but I keep saying that.

And then I feel like a very common experience I have, though, is that, like, I'm feeling kind of low and I'm stuck in mental shit.

But the distinction we're making today is useful to me of, like, those are victimy feelings, and therefore, they often do, often, if not always do feel like, for me, they're coming through transference. But even that is not victim consciousness.

Wow.

I want to think I can travel to the low and still be totally a passenger and still be, like, innocent, Kelsey. Everything's fine. Innocent motivation. Like, I want to think that. I want that to be true, but I don't know if it's true.

Like, there seems to be a correlation for me between being low and desire transferred. Kelsey. Mind. But. And that is upsetting to me, and I want it to not be true, and I'm going to keep challenging that.

And, like, one of the distinctions that I'm seeing through my convo with you today and through some of the back and forth we've done leading up to this is that, like, even that is still not victim consciousness. That distinction is helpful for me.

It's victimy feelings. Yeah. I mean, that makes me want to ask, like, do you feel like, can have you.

Do you feel like you can ever feel victimy when you're in a high of the wave?

Yeah. Yeah.

What kind of thoughts are those? Like, what's that look like?

It's like. It's like the inverse of the victimy thoughts, but it's, like, still ruled by ego, Mindy, and by binary.

It's like, it's like, God, this shit is, like, so hard to articulate. Okay. I've talked before about how, like, the shattering of the ego mind is really liberating in that it's like, oh, none of that was my fault.

I don't have to feel like.

I don't have to hold on to the narratives that show up, up when I'm experiencing this feeling of, like, guilt and shame and this quote, low vibe stuff because I have a liberated mind and I'm not. I'm not ruled anymore by these dualistic narratives. So that's really liberating.

And what that means, on the other hand, is that the parts of me that, like, took a lot of pride in how great certain things are in my Life at certain moments are also less true. Like, you can't have one without the other. You can't have freedom from the shame and still hold on to, like, the tight ego grasping at the pride.

Like, once when you. When you hold the shame a little more loosely, you're gonna hold the pride a little more loosely too.

So that came up for me when you asked me about that, because it's like, the black and white narratives can show up at any part of the wave, but when I'm in the high, they tend to show up more as, like, look what I did. I'm so great, let's do more. Which is also like. And that's like, that's not the full truth, but that's also part of the truth.

And I don't want to resist that either. Like, part of.

Part of embracing what it is to be an emotional is like fully relaxing into all those parts with the context, with the awareness in mind that this is part of the context, not the whole truth. But so I'm thinking, like, I'm going. I don't know. I don't know if this is where we want to go at all. But I'm just. Here's what's here.

It's, like, so hard to articulate. Before I had been conceptualizing it, like, I don't know if I can go to the low without transference being there.

And that question that you just asked me about, can you be victimy in the high too?

Is like, what it's making me realize, which is something I've been thinking about a lot, actually, all day and in days leading up to this as well, is like, the transference is always right there. Like the mind passenger mind, not self mind. They're always both right here. And so your question of, like. Exactly. Yeah.

And so your question of, like, is the. Is the. What did you ask? Victimy feelings, are they up here too? It's like, I'm.

What I think I'm realizing is that this distinction of victim y feelings versus victimy consciousness is really helpful for me. And that victim y feelings I'm now seeing for me have an association with not self mind.

And that can show up in any part of the wave and does show up at any part of the wave, because the part of us that's, like, very prideful and defensive from an ego mind, black and white place, is also a victim. But it's like approaching victimhood in a different way.

But I think what I'm seeing for myself, I feel like I'm like, doing some Navel gazing right now. But this is just what's here. What I'm seeing for myself is like, even that's inescapable.

That's part of what it is to be alive in this realm, to be incarnated in these body mind machines is like desire, Kelsey. Innocence, Kelsey. They're always right here and they're both sacred and they're always fine and they're part of me and they're not a problem.

And that even just having that awareness is my permanent calibration to a version of consciousness that is not victim consciousness. Are you tracking what I'm saying at all?

Yeah, like, I'm. But like. And I'm approaching it from a very intuitive place of understanding.

Like I'm still outside of it. And so I can, I can, I can't. Like, I'm never going to completely quiet that exchange between transferred mind, passenger mind.

No, because you're in a human body and, and playing the human game.

Right. And so this previous, like, question I had of. Do I have to go into, like, distorted mind when I'm in a low? Is now, as of this moment, feel.

It's like a completely irrelevant, obsolete question. Because it's just like, it's just, it's.

I don't try to repress the victim mindset when I'm in the high because I'm playing out a version of that victim that's actually feeling pretty good and pretty, like, vindicated.

Sure. Yeah.

But it's still the inverse of the victim consciousness. If people are tracking this fucking amazing. Telepathy is real.

Because I feel like I. I feel like I'm saying what I'm meaning, but I'm aware that it probably sounds like complete fucking gibberish outside of my body or outside of this telepathic intuitive connection that you're listening with.

Yeah.

You know, with my, like, bottom up processing on this one, I'm like, trying to understand my own experience of that, like, what it feels like for me to feel into what you're positing as, like, sort of like the opposite side of the same coin. I'm trying to identify where in my high I can.

Yeah, yeah, tell me about your high. Like, tell me about your high and what you've. What you've found, if anything, to be like, associated with.

Like, if you have a feeling, a victimy feeling in a low, how does it change when you get to a high? Or vice versa? No, no, not vice versa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. So if I'm in a victimy feeling in A low. I mean, I guess for me, it feels like it becomes irrelevant.

Yeah. That also feels true for me.

That's why I can't feel into whatever is in the high. Because I'm like, oh, just like, doesn't. It stops being a thing.

I love the. I love the concept of relevance because it feels so need motivated. Right. Like, need motivation is able to be, like, irrelevant, not needed.

Yeah. And I can see how innocence and desire might have a different orientation to that.

Right, right. And then I'm thinking about when I get to the high, the innocence is like, I'm able to lean into this, like, innocent.

Sixth color is about embodiment. So I'm able to lean into, like, pride and the other side of that coin in a way that feels like, really true and embodied. I'm like, yeah.

And I have a defined ego, you know, it's like I arrived to this place of, like. Yeah. I don't know.

Pride is an interesting concept for me. That's.

I think perhaps that that's the piece I'm trying to feel into that you're saying of, like, pride being sort of the other side of the coin of victimy feelings. Because I'm like, I don't even know what my relationship to pride looks like.

Right. Well, your relationship to pride is very unfixed with an undefined ego. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Right. I think that that's definitely a piece of it.

And then also talking about need made me think about how the fear transference and victim me feelings, like, hold hands in such a way that's really based on. I'm trying to, like, figure out, like, you know, establishing security. Right. As a piece of it. And then, like, this idea of helplessness.

And I don't know if I'm doing the thing now where I'm trying to stitch together concepts that don't necessarily fit. But just talking about that made me think about the fear transference's role in the low of the wave.

Mm. Does it have a role? Is that, like. Does that feel true to you, that there's a role of the transferred mind in the wave necessarily?

I mean, like, probably. Right? I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm feeling like I'm having this, like, sensation right now of, like.

We're, like, really looking at this concept of victim consciousness and victimy feelings and the relationship of these things to emotional processing and the solar plexus in, like, such a mind way, which is, like. Is part of. I don't feel transferred or distorted right now. I feel unattached, clear, pretty clear, neutral, innocent.

And I also feel this concentration of trying to understand it from here. And I think that's like, that's what these systems are for.

You and I have studied to such depth in the human design system that we can look at our experience of victimhood and victimy feelings and our experience of our emotional wave, and we can, like, look for these correlations between what we also understand about our rave psychology, you know, And I don't think it's irrelevant. Like, none of this. None of this conversation feels irrelevant. It feels like fun. And I just. And it feels very mental. That's like what I'm. Yeah.

What's coming up for me right now is like, look at it. We're trying to figure it out with our mind. Not in a way that I don't feel like it's a problem. I don't feel like we're, like, avoiding anything.

I feel like we're just like, having fun in the Ajna right now.

Yeah. Amongst two hella undefined Ajna people.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, you and I both have an undefined Ajna, but we. We both have an open head too. Like, it's undefined and undefined. It's like we have the same thing going on there.

What's your Ajna Gate?

So we both have gate 11, and then you have 17, and both of these are conscious side. And then me, I don't have 17, but I have double activation on 43, conscious and unconscious.

And you also have 47, your son. Okay, this is interesting. We both have our personality sons in the Ajna. In an undefined Ajna.

And I know, I. You know, I actually, I don't.

This is more of, like an educational thing, but I. I'm not sure exactly how our Incarnation crosses are determined, but I know that, like, one of my gates is my incarnation cross is 47 them.

Yeah, we're saying the same thing. Because the Incarnation cross. Yeah, the Incarnation cross is your personality Sun, Earth, and your design Sun. Earth.

Yes.

And we both have personality Sun. So like my Aries sun in my natal chart and your Virgo sun in your natal chart are both in our undefined Ajna.

So it's like this is where some of this nuance is really important. Is like, yes, you and I are not.

Not like we can easily get swallowed by the amplified amplification of conditioning through the Ajna, but also, even when we're not getting swallowed by that, such significant components of us live in the mind, like our sons are in the mind. So in many ways, we are here to do the work of the mind and be in the mind.

But it feels better when it's not in this, like, sticky place, this sticky grasping place, which I can't tell you exactly how, but intuitively in this moment, I'm like, this is part of this victim consciousness. This victim thing is like, we are here to think about this. Like, we are here to intellectualize.

That is, I mean, I think I would say that about anyone with an undefined Ajna too. Like, part of our movie is about exploring the realm of the mind so much, but without getting attached to it.

And then it's just an exclamation point on that, that we both have our suns, our sun gates are in here. So there's a very specific way that we are designed to orient to. And it is actually a fixed part of us having those gates defined.

Yeah, that piece about attachment is like, exactly what I was gonna say.

Yeah, I'm thinking about, like, the figuring it out, you know.

Like. Like just. It's like fun and games to. To playing from the Ajna. Like it's fun and games. Like it's not the truth. Right.

And that kind of reminds me of like, what you. What you were saying about solar plexus awareness and Ajna awareness and their relationship in the process of digesting.

I don't remember the exact terminology that we were using about it, but like the. The 3d of the Ajna and the 5d of the solar plexus and like, need to move the feelings like that or that the. The ways in which we move victimy energy.

Yeah.

From one to the other and I. Were you saying from the. The 3D ajna to the 5D solar plexus or opposite? Or maybe it's both.

Hmm. Yeah, I'm not like, moving. Okay, I'm just gonna talk about this from scratch. Cause I can't feel into the way you asked the question.

But also, even with that aside, I'll probably still sprinkle some of that in. But even with that aside, the awareness centers and the body graph tell of evolution of human consciousness through the evolution of the human form.

And as you move from spleen to Ajna to solar plexus, there's an evolution of awareness happening. The splenic being the most simple, pointed in a singular moment in time and processing only according to Security, holding on to life.

The Ajna being much more complex than the spleen, able to operate in the binary, in linear time and able to comprehend awareness according to a lot more complexity, but still locked into 3D, still locked into duality. Past, present, future. Yes. No dualistic computing. And then the solar plexus is the most complex, perhaps the most sophisticated of them all.

And it operates in a dimensionality beyond even that of the third dimension. So the spleen can't even process past, present, future.

And even that is not entirely true because the spleen holds memory like animal instinct has the memories, the survival memories of that animal's biological ancestors. Right. So our spleens carry memory, but they're not processing awareness according to time, they're processing awareness according to the now.

And then the Ajna can operate across time. So it's like more the dimension of time and space comes into play with the Ajna.

And then solar plexus awareness, the dimensionality of that is beyond what we can even comprehend in our minds. And I conceptualize solar plexus awareness as like being what connects us to what some people would say are guides, you know, to source.

It's like our point of connection to what I say is the we that transcends the limitations of this Maya, of this realm that we are currently incarnated on. Having this adventure of passenger consciousness on solar plexus awareness is like, it is timeless, but not in the way the spleen is.

It's timeless in the way that all of time is there. This is like speaking to your Pisces moon shit, probably.

This is like, sounds very it prophecy based. It's not though. But future humans won't.

They will have access to solar plexus awareness, this other dimensional timeless awareness, without it being limited to the very 3D experience of energy and time.

So basically a simpler way of putting this, and this is, I think what I, what I said to you in what you're referring to is that right now in our bodies, the solar plexus is both a motor center and an awareness center.

And what Ra taught, what the voice showed him, it wasn't just explicitly this, it was like many things that include this, is that the solar plexus, in future iterations of this species won't be an energy center, it will only be an awareness center.

So there will be the capacity to access this like deep well of multi dimensional awareness of our connectivity that transcends the limitation of the binary that can be accessed without having to go through this very heavy fueled motor process of riding an emotional wave.

And so right now, like those of us with emotional authority, we don't get to we like our authority is that spiritual multidimensional awareness that both, both holds and encompasses the victimy feelings, but is not just those victimy feelings, but we in our bodies in this period of human evolution don't get to access that awareness in the click of a finger like other dimensional beings would or like the future of humanity will. We have to move through time and space to feel out the wave, to let it process.

And to me that also speaks to this thing I said earlier of like the human condition of being both God and human at the same time. Like as our bodies evolve, we will evolve into greater access to the God parts of ourself while inhabiting these bodies.

And right now we have access to that, but it requires us dealing with, with the heaviness of emotional energy. The actual like physical energy, like awareness is not energy. Right.

And so these other awareness centers, the awareness doesn't require the physical energy. But right now, in order to access emotional spiritual awareness, we have to be weighed down by it.

Is that all stuff you've heard me say before or is some of that new? I'm curious.

I would say like 80% familiar.

Yeah.

My question is what do you think? Or I do. You do. But my, my curiosity is what does it mean for victim consciousness when this change happens?

Yeah. Mm. I think what it means and like all of this is gonna be the mind's like futile attempts to make sense of a feeling.

Understood. Caveat.

Yeah, caveat. I think what it means is like that we won't have to also be in it.

We can just, just like future humans will be able to just be outside of it and not also have to be in it.

So it might really be a completely different feeling altogether that does not at all resemble the ways in which.

Yeah.

We're experiencing it now as a society.

Yep.

So now my undefined AJNA is like, I don't know enough about this, and is it wrong of me to, like, bring this stuff up? But this is.

This is, like, all stuff that swirls in my AJNA and my solar plexus as I'm, like, learning stuff and I'm feeling through, like, what aspects of it feel true to me, and I feel some truth here. And I feel like a lot of us that are alive right now, like, transmuting victimhood, are doing grid work, like. Like, facilitating this.

This mutation in human consciousness through the human body, through our healing, like, through our processing, through this alchemy. Me, like, this is evolution happening.

That hits. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious if, like, because I feel like, okay, some of this might come out as caveaty, but I have thoughts on the caveat conversation.

I. I am not against.

Yeah, no, I just, like, I just always want to bring nuance. More nuance, you know, which is.

I understand, could feed the caveat compulsion, but for me, a lot of times there are definitely not selfie caveat shit that's happening. And I do think it would be medicinal to practice not using them. No caveat club. And I sometimes think, like, maybe this is manifester shit. I'm like.

Like, my caveats are sometimes an important part of the informing. Like, I'm, like, absolutely. You know, like, priming people.

Like, I'm, like, setting the conditions for how I, like, I'm attuning people to the message that I want to bring through. So there's. Yeah, yeah. Okay. What was it? Where was I going, though?

Caveats.

Oh, my caveats. Okay.

The caveats were like, I. I kind of entered this conversation feeling like, for me, this lab partner's experience is about just, like, dropping in with Quinn and perceived it as, like, victim consciousness is a thing that, like, you have been wanting to metabolize through your throat, like, to share and process and be in conversation about. So with that caveat in mind, I'm like, okay, my experience has been satiated through.

To me, this episode has been about Quinn and Kelsey figuring out victim consciousness through our. Our. With our AJNAs.

I think we've nailed it.

Yeah, we figured it out. And. But I'm wondering, like, yeah, is there. Are there, like, pieces about your own, like, intimate experience with it?

Is there Stuff left that you're like, that's here. That's like wanting to be.

And you might not know what, but I'm just like, I'm curious about the sensation in your own body right now of like, there was something here, there was some. There's been something like, making its way to your throat.

And maybe we're both non sacral, so perhaps looking for the moment of completion around that will lead us astray, in fact, and it's all ongoing, this conversation is a thread that will continue on. But I'm just curious how you're feeling with your initiation of this convo in this moment. Does it feel like there's more.

Does it feel like there's a specific direction where I'm just. Yeah. Wanting to scan. Scan you for that.

Let me process that. Like, I think that we could say so many more things in terms of how I feel about my own processing of it is like.

And I can't help but look at need motivation in this moment and say there's nothing spiraling in the AJNA right now about it.

Nothing needed.

Like, I could talk about victim feelings for a long time.

Yeah, I.

There's a part of me that's like relaxing into like this kind of realization I had at some point recently that was like, oh, we're currently trying to figure out victim consciousness and victim ness and its correlation to the like, other multidimensionalities of our experience in an AJNA way. And once I like, saw that for what it was, I was like, okay, cool.

Yeah, so there's no punctuation to this conversation because we're never gonna figure it out.

But even that being said, I feel like this question of like, what is the relationship between my wave and my not self and victimhood, like, those are questions I've been asking my entire human design experiment. And they're questions I've heard other people asking.

And I personally have not found myself in a conversation that's actually like, like, let's, let's go. Let's go with our undefined minds and see. Let's find stuff. You know, I've never listened to one either.

Like, I hear the questions a lot and like, maybe a couple sentences of people attempting to answer them, but I've never actually like, been a part of or listened to a conversation that like, really looked at it. And I feel like I'm kind of leaving with more questions.

But I do feel I'm excited to listen back to this because I feel like I had some moments of like, seeing some shit that I hadn't really seen and looked at before. And it feels.

Yeah, it all felt in my head like I didn't really feel a whole lot land in my body around it, but I saw, like, new dimensions of connections and disconnections between some of these topics that like. Yeah, I feel like I used my mind a lot, but I feel like. And I feel like there were like some seeds planted in this conversation that. That will.

Will free my mind even more, but haven't yet.

Yeah, that's like sort of. I mean, even like a feeling that I wanted to.

To offer the concept, you know, whether it's offering that feeling to you or to somebody who's listening or to myself or we're all the same thing or perhaps to God, which is also us. But like, that there's space. There's like victimhood is not like trapped shipping container between boxes.

It can have breathing room and it can be hard to let it because it can't. Like, I can be hard to believe that it. That can have breathing room.

Yeah. Oh, I have something. It's like, it's designed to pull us into the 3D experience so when we feel a little trapped by it. That's right.

That's just right.

Yeah. The other thing that I can say, which I don't know, you know, caveat. Caveat.

I don't know what point I'm trying to make with it, but the other thing that I could say to myself in the past is how much more peaceful it is outside of victim consciousness. Like, it feels so much more peaceful to live my life without constant of it. Without the constant. Yeah, they still come up.

Yeah.

I have like, this. This new, like, way to sort of identify. Like, I don't always catch them. There's no. There's no way to do that.

But like, when I see them happening, I see them happening more often.

Yeah.

And from there I can be like, oh, like, I would rather do this a little bit differently.

I would rather, like, one, like, feel more of a sense of peace in my own world, but also thinking about, like, manifester emotional impact act and like, thinking about pushing out peace instead of anger. And like, maybe that's all stuff that just dovetails together and goes hand in hand and like, not more peace brings more peace in or.

I don't know what it is, but, like, my life would not be as peaceful if I was stuck in the constant victim consciousness.

Fucking AI made its mark with the use of the word constant. I. Yeah. What does peace feel like at different parts of the wave? Is an interesting question.

That's another way that I've been looking at it is like I've been asking like, is there always distortion? Is there always transference in the load? Does there have to be? But maybe a simpler question is just like, like, can there be peace in the low?

Because I think the answer is yes. But it, but it feels different. And then I think about. I just had.

I mentioned this earlier, this quality time conversation with Caitlin who's undefined solar plexus. And in the aftermath of that she reflected like her noticing what it.

What it's like to be deeply conditioned by a defined solar plexus being who I have been in a pretty prolonged kind of low and how that even that still felt like grounding. And she was talking about.

She was referencing something I've said in the past about what it's like to have an undefined Ajna and land on someone who has a healthy relationship or is in a moment of healthiness with their mind and how that can feel really grounding. And she was like referring to that and turning it to apply to the solar plexus. And that feels relevant to what you were just sharing here.

Because can we be at peace even with our lows and then we are able to invite others into relationship with our low? That's still from a place of peace and that's still peace.

I also just want to name how beautifully your need motivation was coming through and like your intention for this conversation that I didn't even really know about till you named it at the end of the space giving it feels like. Yeah, just like this blanket of love that you're placing around the edges of the harshness of the experience of victimy feelings.

And that feels really nice. And I totally see the need motivation for that.

I think maybe the reason the pillow came in is because my go to example when I talk about need motivation is the time my bestie went and got a pillow for someone sitting on the floor and how I just like don't even. That's not, you know, I just don't. And how inherent it was for her in that moment.

And I feel like you just brought a pillow for all of our victim butts to sit on. So thank you for that.

I'm beaming. Yeah. When you're talking about peace even in the low and like transmitting that the thing that comes to mind is just not fighting it. Not fighting it.

Yeah. That's actually what's needed.

The victim consciousness too.

It's just like not fighting the why like through the why or not fighting the why itself anymore but just like letting the why be a what or a nothing or whatever instead of like the assumption assumption that there is a why not citing it.

Yeah, that's actually all that's needed.

Is that all that's needed?

We don't have a defined sacral on this call but we do have a need motivated mind. Is that all that's needed?

I am just parroting what you just said.

Oh, you want me to give her the call?

No, I didn't. I was. I'm. I'm being. I'm being silly.

I like how I interpreted it innocently.

Yeah, you did. I do.

Oh, you do? This was a joke.

It was. So you said is that all that's needed? And I put that back But I said that like directed at the episode.

That's what I thought. Okay.

No, you're right.

You were just playing a trick on me I see Sa.