In this episode of Tech Transforms, Nihal Krishan, tech reporter at FedScoop, discusses how and where the American government is lagging behind in technology, but there is a focus on modernization to improve the situation. We also talk about the need for comprehensive data privacy legislation and how budget caps may impact government agencies' modernization initiatives. Additionally, we explore concerns surrounding TikTok's ownership and data privacy, as well as the addiction and potentially harmful effects of the platform. We also touch on the importance of respecting sources as a journalist and provide a few podcast recommendations. Finally, we look at the challenges in understanding algorithms used by TikTok and how they could be used to promote divisive content. Join us to learn about these transformative topics in the tech world!

Introducing Our Guest, Nihal Krishan

Nihal Krishan is a journalist who has covered the controversies surrounding TikTok. He highlights the privacy violations committed by the company when it accessed journalists' personal information to control their narrative. Krishan also acknowledges the legitimate fears surrounding the app since TikTok's parent company is based in China. However, he notes that there is no objective evidence of the Chinese government misusing American data obtained through TikTok. He raises the question of whether American social media companies are any better at safeguarding data than TikTok. Krishan argues that the debate over TikTok highlights the need for data privacy legislation in Congress.

Key Topics:

• Government Budget and IT Modernization
• Privacy and Security on TikTok
• Social Media and Data Privacy

Episode Highlights:

• [00:00:57] TikTok has been criticized for invading journalists' privacy to control their perceptions of the app, but the evidence for harm is primarily based on perception and politics. There are concerns about Chinese government access to American data, but it has not been proven yet. The issue of data privacy is a larger problem for social media companies in general and calls for legislation.
• [00:06:04] TikTok is a popular Chinese-owned social media platform with almost a billion users, mainly Gen Z, and its popularity has caused concerns about national security and data privacy in the US.
• [00:10:13] Understanding TikTok's algorithms is like understanding Facebook and Google's algorithms. The government is concerned that TikTok could sow seeds of discord like how Russians did in 2016 on Facebook. It's a complicated problem faced by all social media platforms.
• [00:12:29] TikTok is highly addictive and has a powerful algorithm that tailors to a user's preferences. Instagram and other apps are trying to copy its success. Concerns arise over its safety and effects on users, especially children and those with attention issues, requiring regulations.
• [00:14:57] Data privacy laws are crucial for people who don't have time to limit their phone and social media use. Bipartisan support exists for Children's data and app time protection, but comprehensive legislation is still needed.
• [00:18:54] US government lags behind in technology; modernization is a key issue for federal agencies and Congress has formed an IT Modernization Committee to improve it, but bureaucracy and political battles affect appropriations for IT modernization.
• [00:22:31] Caps on spending for agencies may hamper modernization efforts.
• [00:24:18] Budget cuts expected on unspecified agencies and programs; impact and details unknown. Reporting on changes to come. Cybersecurity noted.
• [00:25:50] Journalists rely on trust to get information and protect sources. Most people's comments are not newsworthy, and journalists don't report everything they hear. Building relationships and protecting sources is important for breaking good stories.

Quotable Quotes From Nihal Krishan

TikTok and the potential for social media manipulation: "If we allow this to go forth unchecked, it could reach a point where TikTok just continues to get more and more popular. And then they start sowing seeds of discord." — Nihal Krishan

"The Addictive Power of TikTok": "It is highly, highly addictive... hours, days, years, it just gets better and better at giving you exactly that little delicious treat that makes your mind go gaga with pleasure or go dark with fear and play at the human mind." — Nihal Krishan

The Importance of IT Modernization in Government: "I think it's important to remember that from the industry's perspective and for many Americans, the American government is still severely lagging behind when it comes to technology." — Nihal Krishan

Welcome to Tech Transforms sponsored by Dynatrace. I'm Carolyn Ford. Each week, Mark Senell and I talk with top influencers to explore how the US Government is harnessing the power of technology to solve complex challenges and improve our lives. Hi, thanks for joining us on Tech Transforms. I'm Carolyn Ford. Today a I get to welcome Nahal Christian. He's technology reporter at Fed Scoop. Nahal and I are going to talk about TikTok. So welcome to Tech Transforms. Nahal so I want to talk about the controversy over TikTok. The federal government, the US federal government has banned it so far. We've seen Australia ban it, along with universities in Arizona. Can you sum up the main points of controversy around TikTok?

I think one of the most well known cases of abuse actually is directly related to the media and journalists. So there was this big report by Vice Vice News and a couple others last year which showed that TikTok had access to journalists personal information and their routines and habits on TikTok in a pretty invasive way because they were trying to control their narrative and they were trying to control and influence how reporters write and perceive TikTok. And so there were some major privacy violations that occurred there, and people at TikTok got fired for that. And so that is an example of misuse. But by and large, actually, I think my reporting and others have shown the actual quantifiable harm of TikTok. A lot of it is perceptions right now. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. A lot of it is just TikTok equals China, China equals bad. A lot of it is rather sort of performative and is politically driven and motivated. There obviously are some legitimate fears that if a business based in China, the CCP has a lot of control, dominant control over the data, records, business model of any company that is China based. And so in theory, there is a worry that the CCP could get unfair illegitimate access to Americans personal data and information through their TikTok accounts because TikTok's parent company By Dance, is Chinese. But the reality is we have not seen, we do not know of any objective evidence of them having access to American data and misusing it. There have been some pretty seminal reports by the Australian government and others that show that if the Chinese government wants to, they can get access to company data and information and that there are many employees within Byte Dance, senior employees who are part of the CCP. And so, optically speaking, it does not look good. And there is a sense that maybe the Chinese government might be able to do some harmful things, but we have not seen that occur on a widespread level in a significant way thus far. It could be happening behind closed doors. But I'm saying what we know of thus far is that they have not done so yet. And then of course, TikTok has made promises that they are going to keep all their data outside of China, so within servers in the United States itself and allow the American government and others to secure it. And so there was this very famous and pretty heated hearing in Congress where TikTok CEO, who's a Singaporean gentleman, came and was roasted by members of Congress, although some say that he really held up his end and had a lot of poise. And so, yeah, the TikTok story is one that is driven a lot by politics and national security concerns, some of which are founded, but many of which have not been proven with true evidence. And I think a big thing for Americans to think about and people in the government is how much worse is TikTok than our social media companies like Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or others? Each of them collect massive amounts of information. They've had various issues with transparency and data collection of their own. We had the Cambridge Analytica scandal, of course, with Facebook and Meta, and there have been a number of others. And so the question is, are American social media companies much better at protecting and safeguarding our data than TikTok, which is a Chinese parent company? And honestly, I don't think we necessarily have a good, clear answer that American companies are tremendously better. They sell and use Americans data every day, all the time. And that's part of the reason why there's a big push for data privacy legislation in Congress, which is not going anywhere fast, but there are calls for it. And so, yeah, I think those are some of the key challenges and conflicts in this TikTok story.

That's interesting that there's really not a lot of hard data, like you said, to show that TikTok is any worse than the other social media companies. But what it boils down to is TikTok is a Chinese owned company. And you're right, like, China equals bad. And so really, that's where this is really, you think, grown from.

Yeah, that's absolutely the heart and root of but it's not only that it's a Chinese owned company, but it's also that it's just exploding in popularity like the second most used social media platform, second or third in the United States. And it has gone faster to, I think, almost a billion users than any other social media platform. And it is the youth gen z folks. Like, I'm sure your son either is on it or maybe tech it okay. Maybe he has friends who are on it, then. Yeah, I don't have an account myself, but I know lots of I don't either do. And there's a lot of businesses, there's a lot of local and state governments. And so I think it's the combination of being China owned and also just the fact that it's this giant whale, it's the eight ton gorilla that you just cannot ignore anymore. There's very few other Chinese businesses or companies or websites that have infiltrated The American Landscape. I can't think of any other major company. I mean, lots of our goods are manufactured in China, but there's not any one large entity that you can say, oh, Americans deal with this Chinese company every day. No, it's a part of the supply chain. But TikTok is there, front and center. And so I think that's why we're dealing. We've thought of had these conflicts with China for years. But this is the first time a Chinese company has entered into the everyday lexicon and use of the American public and the American government. And so that's where it comes from. And the national security side is not something I write about every day. We should probably bring in somebody else to really delve deep into that realm. And I'm sure those are serious concerns, but yeah, we tend here at Petscube and Cybersecurity to focus on the issues related to data privacy and potential risk to disinformation and misinformation.

So do you think that maybe the government span on it is? Or have they officially banned it? They have, right?

They've only banned it within federal government devices. Okay, so only if you are trying to access it on a federal government device or maybe a contractor's device. They've started this ban. I mean, I don't think it's fully been executed yet, but they've started process for that. But of course, everyday Americans. I mean, if you're using it on a personal device, there's no stopping they can do.

Which brings me to so I'm thinking, okay, they banned it because, to your point, this is the first time we've seen I'm going to use really heated words here. A Chinese company has infiltrated to this degree the American society. And so the concern over privacy within the government but then I wonder, too. Like, I'm thinking about what you said about TikTok violating a lot of privacy issues with journalists trying to influence them. I mean, I could see the government having some concern with government employees, but if the government employees are using it on their personal devices, that could happen anyway. If they're using it.

Yeah, correct. They absolutely can be using it on their personal devices. And so I think a wrinkle in this that is important and that gets talked about more and more is in some ways the conversation is shifting more towards less about data privacy in some ways, and more about okay. Let's say TikTok decided to change its algorithm, and maybe it was influenced in part by the Chinese Communist Party or others, and that algorithm started sending misinformation about the American government or about policies here or about China. And then you have tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of Americans taking in that misinformation. And that can affect an election. That can affect.

How do we know that that's not already happening?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great way and an accurate way to put it. It is highly, highly addictive. And their algorithm has touched upon something that is tremendously powerful and it's just literally you use the app for less than two minutes and just swipe on a few dozen videos and it has a pretty razor sharp sense of what you like and don't like. And of course, the more you use it, hours, days, years, it just gets better and better at giving you exactly that little delicious treat that makes your mind go gaga with pleasure or go dark with fear and play at the human mind. And that's why Instagram has tried to copy it with its own stories and feeds. And this is the way you see the news. There's a new app that's been created by the founders of Instagram called Artifact, and it tries to do this with news where it just shows you a bunch of news articles. You swipe one way or the other and it starts to recommend news articles for you. So everyone is trying to copy TikTok. Everyone thinks that geniuses, and they want to try to replicate the model, but like, how safe it is, how much of a good idea it is for children or for people who have attention issues, which is a lot of us these days. It's not clear. It's not clear how good that is for you. And some degree of thought or safeguards or regulations are probably likely needed.

Yeah, I have friends who are highly addicted to it to the point where we can't have dinner together without them pretty much being buried in their phones the entire dinner. And I'm like, okay, should I get on my phone and start sending you stuff over TikTok or social media too? It's not just TikTok. TikTok seems to be and Instagram literally can't be together for an hour without them getting on their phones, and that's enough for me to say I'm out, like, I've taken it off my phone. I've never done TikTok. But even the other social platforms, I haven't deleted them completely, but they're not on my main home screen. Like, I have to work a little bit to get to them.

Yeah. And I think that's, as you rightly pointed out right now, it's all happening at the individual level. People just have to decide for themselves what sort of balance they want to strike, visibly engaging with the world and their ideas or their business or family and friends, how much you want to put out and how much you want to keep that personal space for yourself. And I think this is why to shift it back into politics real quick. This is why it's so important that there is data privacy and related rules and regulations and laws passed in Congress. Because many factions of society don't have that time and ability to say, oh, I'm going to have this really thoughtful, intricate approach to my use of my phone and social media. Oftentimes these things have to be baked in so that people who have three or four jobs or juggling kids and jobs or dealing with somebody who's sick don't have the time for that. And unfortunately, we are not very close to passing data privacy, comprehensive legislation in Congress right now. I think Children is the one area where I think there's a lot of bipartisanship between Democrats and Republicans. Let's do something that protects children's data and also the amount of time that they spend on these apps. I think there's likely to be movement on that within the next year. But regarding something outside of Children that's more comprehensive, that's something that their industry is asking for, citizens are obviously asking for. And there really needs to be more movement there because that's ultimately the long term solution here. Individuals can try to make better decisions right now, day to day, but many people will fall through the cracks through that approach.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if it's your drug of choice. Okay. And your privacy shouldn't be at risk because that's your drug of choice. Like the companies should have some rules on them and that it would be really great to have the government do that for us. I want to wrap up with our Tech Talk questions. So just some fun quick questions. But actually before I go to Tech Talk, is there anything else that we I mean, there's so many things, but anything else that you want to mention to our listeners?

The only other major issue that I think we haven't quite gotten into is cybersecurity and It modernization. I think an important thing to note is that coming out now, we're post pandemic or some version of post pandemic. There was an immense amount of resources that were expended on It modernization during the pandemic within the Social Security Administration, HHS in particular, and others. And now we've had spending happen through the infrastructure bill, the Infrastructure Act last year and then the Chips Act. And so I think it's really important to remember this is a time when everyone is coming back into real life and people are traveling, and that this is a time when the government has allocated a lot of money for tech related purposes and a lot of government contractors are buying for that money. But there are going to be a number of difficulties and challenges with implementation of that spending in the coming years.

Still left over the spending that was allocated during the pandemic. So you're talking 20, 21, 22 even that spending hasn't been well, some of.

That spending hasn't fully occurred, but there's been new spending that has occurred last year, as I said, from the Chips Act and from the Infrastructure Bill.

Okay.

So it modernization like such a big term and you mentioned these computers like hardware infrastructure that's outdated decades. There's also part of the modernization movement is shifting to the cloud. Do you see if some of this spending does get shut down? Can you look in your crystal ball and see what's going to be hit the hardest? Is it going to be will they go ahead and upgrade the infrastructure that is older than my mother or are they going to slow down on cloud migration? Where would you see the cuts hitting the hardest?

Yeah, it's a fair question. I think it's not that there would actually be cuts. They want to cap the spending at what it was for FY 22. There's not cuts, but it would be I think it's, it's more related to, you know, in each agency it's it's going to be different. Ford example in the VA, which we've done a lot of reporting on, there are worries of caps when it comes to its electronic health record system, which is source of great controversy. And so they're trying to modernize that move from a Vista software to Oracle Cerner. And so that transition could potentially be hampered by caps in spending and it might make it more difficult to make that transition. Whereas in Congress, for example, there have been efforts to modernize it when it comes to its scheduling system and when it comes to building a new tool. Ford taking in constituent complaints and feedback. And so there's been a number of It modernization recommendations that Democrats and Republicans agreed on in a partisan way through this modernization committee, which was great. It was an unexpected degree of movement and agreement, but actually implementing them will take certain resources. And so many of those recommendations may take longer or may not come to fruition if the budget is capped. That's what Representative Kilmer just told me a few days ago.

Well, I'm not going to lie. So as an end user, I'm feeling like what you're telling me is my experience is not going to get any better.

Well, it may very well get better, but it just might take longer. It might take longer on the users end for it to get better. If there's this cap, I mean, likely, I think as much as I can gaze into a crystal ball, it'll probably budget levels will not get capped, but like Republicans want and Democrats increases will also not completely finalize or come to fruition. It'll be somewhere in the middle, like many of these sort of compromises are. But what will particularly get cut will just agencies will get the budget that they get, and then they will make the cuts. We don't really know yet what they're planning to cut or what programs that they had planned to create will get scaled back. And that will happen once they actually have a sense of the budget. Nobody has predictions right now on what will be affected, but we will certainly be the first to report on it as soon as we have budgets, we will be the first to write about what will get caught, what will get changed, what's going to be ruffling feathers. Yeah, that's good. Cybersecurity.

All right, well, I'm really glad that I asked because, yes, it modernization is something that I keep a close eye on as well. So let's move to our tech talk questions. The first question I want to ask you is what is a common myth about your job or field of expertise that you often have to correct people on?

I think the one that I hear most often is people are always saying, oh, this is off the record, this is off the record. And they have this huge thing about everything that they say, oh, you can't report on this. Even sometimes when I'm having a personal conversation with somebody or it's like something unrelated to what I write about. And there's this almost like, profound sense of mistrust that every reporter out there is just there to cause mischief and mayhem and just take what everybody says and put it on the front page of a newspaper. And so I think that's a great misconception one, because most things that people say are not actually newsworthy. It's like people think of themselves as far more important than they actually are and the things that they have to say. So one is that, but two, even if you are a government official or you're a high ranking tech executive, it's just like the way that journalism works and my profession works. It's entirely built on trust, and it's long term trust. If I were to write something that somebody had told me, oh, please don't write this or don't publish it, or we have a long standing relationship. And if I write that, I might get one good flashy story out of it and then they won't talk to me anymore. And then all their colleagues and others that they work with and friends, none of them will talk to me either. And so we're playing the long game here. And so when something is agreed to be off the record or, you know, it's, it's all about trust. And if you don't have that trust, people are not going to come to you with good story ideas or with exclusives or with scoops. And so I would just encourage people to realize that I've been in this space for eight years and I know others who've been in it for longer. And the people who break the best stories are those who have the best relationships and have access to the best information. And that comes from protecting your sources as much as breaking stories. And so that's the model by which I go on. And yeah, I think people just asking me and making sure, oh, this is off the record, that is off the record. It's a misconception that everything that gets told gets immediately reported. And usually if you're going to report something that's going to be important, even if somebody didn't say off the record, you will go back and check with them and say, hey, by the way, I'm planning to write this story. Did you have anything else you wanted to add? Is this all right? So I would just encourage people to be a little more open and transparent about sharing their thoughts and feelings and little less concerned about how that might get out or be misconstrued. Because if you're dealing with a good reporter and somebody who knows what they're doing, everybody's playing the long game here. You're not trying to have a gotcha moment because that doesn't serve anybody.

Yeah, that makes sense. All right, so what is an underrated tool or tools that are indispensable for your job? Please tell me. It's Chat GPT. I'm just kidding.

No, unfortunately, Chat GPT has not been able to write any stories from me from start to finish, although I do use it for research purposes from time to time again when it's a subject I have some expertise or knowledge on. But what is indispensable is search databases for finding people's contact information, info or rocket search or others. Finding ways of contacting people and their emails and phone numbers is absolutely indispensable. That's how reach out to people who I've never talked to before or don't have a connection to. And so, yeah, tools like that and LinkedIn and others are absolutely indispensable for cold emailing, cold calling. So, yeah, that is important. And then of course, privacy focused messaging apps like Signal, which allow me to be texting with sources in a protected fashion and sometimes outside of the United States. So, yeah, I would say those are two tools that are pretty essential.

Okay. And finally, other than following you and being sure that our listeners are reading your columns, your articles, what other recommendations do you have for our audience? Whether it be podcasts or books or movies, what do you like to do in your downtime? Read, listen to, watch?

Yeah, certainly. So in the tech realm in particular, I every week spend a good bit of time on this podcast called The Big Technology Podcast.

What is it?

It's called The Big Technology Podcast by Alex Cantrowitz. He was a former reporter with Bloomberg, and he just interviews all the best and brightest in the tech world, from Mark Zuckerberg and Larry Ellison, to leaders in the federal government, to AI experts and specialists. And so the head of Meta, AI, he was on his show recently, and that went viral. He's had Sam Altman on the show. And so he's just somebody, I think, who has really in depth, long form conversations that are sort of between like half an hour to an hour, 45 minutes to an hour, and when I'm on a bike ride or I'm going on a long drive or a long walk, I really love listening to him. And I think he gets at all the major issues happening in the tech world, whether it's privacy or disinformation or monetization, social media and cybersecurity, all the major issues. And he speaks to sort of a mainstream audience, but gets into the weeds on important issues. So I really like him. I also listened to the Ezra Klein show. He had a great interview with Alandra Nelson, the former head of the Office of Science and Technology of the White House, great podcast episode on the future of AI and the government and how is the government going to regulate it. So he's a columnist at The New York Times and has a podcast, and he goes really deep into some of the smartest, most skilled experts and professionals in different fields. So those are two podcast wise. In terms of what I'm reading right now, I'm reading Robert Carrow, the famous journalist and author. I'm reading his book on storytelling and reporting. He has written, of course, these famous books called The Power Broker, the seminal pieces on Lyndon Johnson. And so he's one of the most remarkable American historians and storytellers on people in power and people in politics. But I just find you can learn so much just about human nature and human behavior from his books. And so I'm reading one of his books called Working and yeah, it's filled with really juicy, interesting anecdotes on how he structures his life and his reporting and how much his intuition plays. And this is so much of what is driving AI and cybersecurity is like, there's a certain inevitability in his reporting. He's like, I felt like I didn't have a choice to go after these issues and ask these questions and try to track down the truth. And I feel. Like that's. Oftentimes what I hear about from people who are building AI tools is like, they feel like they don't have a choice to work on these things. It's just so important and exciting and necessary. And so, yeah, I think he's somebody who is able to capture that human spirit very well. He's somebody I'm reading I also have been I also have been following some folks who are using technology when it comes to their art form. So there have been some foremost artists at the Met and MoMA that have started to use AI tools within what they create. And so that has also been an area of great interest of mine. So, yeah, those are some of the things that I do in my downtime when I'm biking or sitting in the sun.

Oh, those are great recommendations. Thank you. And thank you so much for taking time today for going well past our time with me. And thanks to our listeners for joining. Make sure you share and smash that like button. Thanks so much.

Nihal thanks so much for having me.

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