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Re-imagining Transitions Part 1
Episode 11st March 2023 • The Family Business Podcast • Russ Haworth
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In this two part interview with Dennis Jaffe, Ken McCracken, Daniel Trimarchi and Stacy Allred we explore the topics covered in the white paper that they have co-authored.

The collaboration is an example of the work being undertaken via the Ultra High Net Worth Institute (www.uhnwinstitute.org).

The white paper covers three key elements of transition planning

1 - Rethink

2 - Rebalance

3 - Re-invent

Through this discussion we explore each of these areas and gain insights from the guests on some of the key areas of this ever present topic within family business and family enterprise.

You can view the paper here: https://www.uhnwinstitute.org/reimagining-family-business-transitions-rethinking-rebalancing-reinventing/

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Transcripts

Russ Haworth:

to this week's episode of the family.

Russ Haworth:

Business podcast.

Russ Haworth:

We're focusing in this series on the topic of succession, as it is commonly known.

Russ Haworth:

Uh, those that have listened to the show for a while will know I

Russ Haworth:

prefer the term continuity planning, but typically it seems to be

Russ Haworth:

referred to a succession planning.

Russ Haworth:

Uh, we covered that a little bit in these coming.

Russ Haworth:

Uh, episodes.

Russ Haworth:

Um, and, uh, I think this, um, Very good arguments made for renaming it

Russ Haworth:

Or reframing it as either continuity or transition

Russ Haworth:

planning rather than succession.

Russ Haworth:

Um, this episode is part one of a two part discussion with four fantastic.

Russ Haworth:

Testic guests.

Russ Haworth:

So I am joined by Dennis Jaffe by Ken McCracken.

Russ Haworth:

Daniel Ki and Stacy all red.

Russ Haworth:

Now they introduce themselves at the beginning of this episode.

Russ Haworth:

But we split the interview into two because it was a long

Russ Haworth:

and detailed conversation.

Russ Haworth:

So, um, part two will be released very shortly.

Russ Haworth:

This episode.

Russ Haworth:

Um, introduces the paper that they have a code.

Russ Haworth:

Authored and collaborated on.

Russ Haworth:

And it's a fantastic paper.

Russ Haworth:

We're going to link it up in the show notes, but, um, it has come about

Russ Haworth:

through the work that, uh, all four do within the ultra high net worth

Russ Haworth:

Institute, which is something that I've mentioned quite a few times on the show.

Russ Haworth:

I'm fortunate enough to be part of their advisory board and

Russ Haworth:

faculty and the work that they are doing is absolutely fantastic.

Russ Haworth:

So I suggest you check them out.

Russ Haworth:

The website is U H N w institute.org.

Russ Haworth:

And as well as the link in the show notes, there is also a link

Russ Haworth:

in, on that homepage to the white.

Russ Haworth:

White paper that has been authored by my guests this week.

Russ Haworth:

As ever if you haven't done so already.

Russ Haworth:

Please head over to fam bees podcast.com and join the newsletter mailing list.

Russ Haworth:

I send out a monthly newsletter with some thoughts and links to

Russ Haworth:

various useful topics in there.

Russ Haworth:

So, if you want to receive that, please do go over and sign up.

Russ Haworth:

So, as I say, this is part one part, two will follow shortly.

Russ Haworth:

Uh i'm sure you will enjoy it it's a fantastic uh, engaging conversation with

Russ Haworth:

four fantastic guests so i will hand Over to that interview now Uh and enjoy

Russ Haworth:

Well, hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Family Business Podcast.

Russ Haworth:

I am joined by not one, not two, not three, but four guests on today's show.

Russ Haworth:

And we are gonna be talking about the topic of re-imagining

Russ Haworth:

family business Transitions.

Russ Haworth:

Now, my guests on the show this week have co-authored a paper together, which we'll

Russ Haworth:

be referring to throughout the show.

Russ Haworth:

Um, and the first, uh, thing I would like to do is have our

Russ Haworth:

guests introduce themselves.

Russ Haworth:

So , we have Dennis, Jeff, Ken McCracken, Daniel Tramar, and Stacy Allred.

Russ Haworth:

So Dennis, if you could kick us off with an intro into who you are, what you do,

Russ Haworth:

a bit of background for our audience who may not have heard you before.

Russ Haworth:

And then we can go around the room and, uh, introduce ourselves.

Dennis Jaffe:

I think like a lot of people in this, this kind of complex

Dennis Jaffe:

field, um, uh, we origins in uh, I didn't wanna I didn't wanna sit in an and a,

Dennis Jaffe:

business and, uh, became a sociologist and worked in organizational change.

Dennis Jaffe:

And, um, I and I got Before, even so this background in family and,

Dennis Jaffe:

um, you know, found my calling.

Dennis Jaffe:

Um, and I've been doing it, uh, ever since.

Dennis Jaffe:

Now it's been about, um, 40 years at the, and, um, uh, since the field began and

Dennis Jaffe:

I've been in it, uh, my family and one and organization is and the challenges of So

Dennis Jaffe:

and all uh, you know, large generations and are dealing with the complexities of

Dennis Jaffe:

switching generations, of balancing the keeping the family kind of, uh, a sense

Dennis Jaffe:

of family connection and managing the diversification of, um, of wealth, uh,

Dennis Jaffe:

beyond just a single business into, um, a number of different family enterprises.

KenMcCracken:

And I'll, I'll, I'll pick it up from there, Russ, if that's okay.

KenMcCracken:

Um, Ken McCracken, I'm an independent family business consultant.

KenMcCracken:

I live in Scotland and work now mainly in the United Kingdom and Ireland,

KenMcCracken:

although previously I've worked in the.

KenMcCracken:

In other parts of the world.

KenMcCracken:

I can't get anywhere near the longevity of Dennis, but I've been in and around

KenMcCracken:

the field since about the mid 1990s.

KenMcCracken:

And that happened because the first university based education

KenMcCracken:

program for family businesses in the United Kingdom was in Scotland.

KenMcCracken:

So that was my good fortune, and I have thoroughly enjoyed doing the

KenMcCracken:

work since then, which has been with families, going through transitions,

KenMcCracken:

helping them to establish effective governance, and then helping them to

KenMcCracken:

implement those type of arrangements.

KenMcCracken:

And it's a joy and pleasure as it is to work with my colleagues

KenMcCracken:

here and to be part of your show.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I'll, um, follow on from Ken.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So Daniel Tramar here and it's, it's great to be back on the podcast

Daniel Trimarchi:

and, and joining everyone today.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And I think Russ, we've, we've spoken over the years across a few different

Daniel Trimarchi:

countries and within my role, so after 14 years with with kp, kpmg,

Daniel Trimarchi:

um, I've relocated back to Australia.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, so I spent the last and a half years in our Canadian practice, uh, leading

Daniel Trimarchi:

on family dynamics and governance.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And prior to that, Uh, three years in the uk, uh, alongside

Daniel Trimarchi:

another one of today's panelists.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So my day-to-day role is, is working within our family business practice,

Daniel Trimarchi:

working with high net wealth families, family offices, um, similar to what

Daniel Trimarchi:

Dennis mentioned, that relationship between the family and the wealth.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and it makes today's topic one of, of special interest and something that,

Daniel Trimarchi:

that I see a lot of in business families.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so how we can provide, um, process and framework and bring structure to

Daniel Trimarchi:

what is often a, a very unstructured conversation, uh, helping families

Daniel Trimarchi:

manage that complexity and that change is, is where I spend most of my time.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Uh, in addition to that, uh, I'm also part of our Global Center of

Daniel Trimarchi:

Excellence for Family Business.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So able to connect with colleagues around the world, um, looking at the tools

Daniel Trimarchi:

and resources that, that we develop and the thought leadership, um, similar to

Daniel Trimarchi:

what we're talking about here today.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So it's been a, a great journey, but even just listening to, to

Daniel Trimarchi:

Ken and Dennis and, and Stacy to follow, um, the, the novice with only

Daniel Trimarchi:

14, 15 years in the field so far.

Stacy Allred:

and Stacy Allred here.

Stacy Allred:

Uh, rounding out this very esteemed panel and just to say it's been so

Stacy Allred:

much fun to collaborate and, and, and work on this topic together.

Stacy Allred:

I started off with a pretty traditional career masters in tax.

Stacy Allred:

I was in public accounting with EY and uh, did that for nine years.

Stacy Allred:

And then I found myself in San Francisco at the height of the.com.

Stacy Allred:

And for the first time in my career, my clients weren't my father's

Stacy Allred:

age, but my age and younger.

Stacy Allred:

And we just had this explosion of financial capital being created, uh,

Stacy Allred:

what felt like, you know, very rapidly.

Stacy Allred:

And I kept getting all these qualitative questions around what impact.

Stacy Allred:

, uh, does my wealth have on the motivation of my 22 and 25 year old?

Stacy Allred:

It was that particular question one day that I threw up my

Stacy Allred:

arms and said, enough's enough.

Stacy Allred:

If I wanna be helpful, I better start to figure out these questions and

Stacy Allred:

cold called wealth psychologists.

Stacy Allred:

So my life got a lot more exciting, needless to say.

Stacy Allred:

And from then in working with Families of Success, have found my way into the family

Stacy Allred:

business field and really appreciate the significance and the challenge of going

Stacy Allred:

through transitions of our topic today.

Stacy Allred:

A real moment that matters.

Stacy Allred:

So thank you, Russ, for having us.

Russ Haworth:

Thank you.

Russ Haworth:

And first comment on, uh, from, from my perspective is what a

Russ Haworth:

fantastic group of collaborators.

Russ Haworth:

It's, it's an example of our ability within the field to be

Russ Haworth:

able to collaborate, collaborate across different countries, across

Russ Haworth:

different backgrounds in terms of how we got to, to being in the field.

Russ Haworth:

So, uh, you guys are setting a great example, um, and hopefully

Russ Haworth:

many more to, to come on, uh, that side of things as well.

Russ Haworth:

Now, as we mentioned, you've collaborated on a paper together and the focus

Russ Haworth:

of that is the topic of da, today's conversation, which is re-imagining

Russ Haworth:

family business transitions.

Russ Haworth:

You talk about in that paper I've had the, the, um, benefit of having a, a

Russ Haworth:

kind of a preview of it and, and I've had a read of it and it, it's fantastic.

Russ Haworth:

We'll link it up in the show notes.

Russ Haworth:

, but you speak about challenging some of the assumptions that

Russ Haworth:

are linked to transitions.

Russ Haworth:

Firstly, how did you come to be collaborating together given that you

Russ Haworth:

are in different places, uh, in the world, and secondly, what are some of the

Russ Haworth:

assumptions you are looking to challenge?

Daniel Trimarchi:

so.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Uh, I think that this white paper's been a product of various

Daniel Trimarchi:

associations that we each have with the ultra high net worth institute.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so, um, for those that that aren't familiar a, a not-for-profit think

Daniel Trimarchi:

tank, um, and learning exchange, the institute is, uh, a group of

Daniel Trimarchi:

individuals and associations that are really looking to elevate the wealth

Daniel Trimarchi:

management industry to a new standard.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And it's something that we've each had various connections with

Daniel Trimarchi:

and, and something that started a lot of these conversations.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So I, I think back to our initial conversations, Stacy and I had

Daniel Trimarchi:

probably over a year ago now, um, and we started talking about the process.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Managing transitions within business families and how that has

Daniel Trimarchi:

continued to evolve over the years.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And we found that it was a multitude of, of various models and frameworks

Daniel Trimarchi:

and components often intertwined within different processes.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and I think back to, to Stacey quoting, I think George Box at the time

Daniel Trimarchi:

where all models are wrong, but some are.

Daniel Trimarchi:

and that, that kind of prompted us to think about how do we pick

Daniel Trimarchi:

apart the transitions process?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and as you mentioned, some of the assumptions and the myths that

Daniel Trimarchi:

are, are built into that process.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so power of, of that collaboration that you were mentioning kind of

Daniel Trimarchi:

us to keep the conversation going.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And, and we had the, the privilege and honor of, of Dennis and

Daniel Trimarchi:

Ken joining that discussion.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And I think from there we were able to isolate the, the focus of

Daniel Trimarchi:

this white paper being the, the disproportionate focus on the next

Daniel Trimarchi:

gen within the transition process.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And we wanted to address that assumption that just because the senior

Daniel Trimarchi:

generation may be well established and experienced in their roles, um,

Daniel Trimarchi:

it's often assumed that they require minimal support in the transition.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so the white paper really helped us sharpen that focus on the senior

Daniel Trimarchi:

generation and the specific support that they need in order to facilitate their

Daniel Trimarchi:

own personal transitions, um, as well as those of their family and the business.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And you can see that through the, the rethink, rebalance, and

Daniel Trimarchi:

reinvent kind of framework that we've used within the white paper.

Russ Haworth:

Fantastic.

Russ Haworth:

And d does anybody want to add into, um, that particular, uh, question on, on the,

Russ Haworth:

the impact of some of those assumptions when we're working on transitions?

Russ Haworth:

If there is an overfocus on, say, the needs of the, the rising generation

Russ Haworth:

and, and perhaps less emphasis placed on, um, the senior gen, what are

Russ Haworth:

some of the outcomes that you've perhaps seen as a result of that?

Dennis Jaffe:

Well, um, I it's so and, um, I think there were two um, um,

Dennis Jaffe:

Talking and uh, we were the, the, and you know, doesn't wanna And so is for

Dennis Jaffe:

their the Which you know, them a and I something that, we, we, we, were um,

Dennis Jaffe:

their in that, basically, um, um, you know, At, what, you grew go the time

Dennis Jaffe:

that I to the And, it, and a And children are their your and do What does So we

Dennis Jaffe:

were We were need to be responsible, but And, and foundation, um, uh, uh,

Dennis Jaffe:

this paper that we, we've come up with

KenMcCracken:

Yeah, Russ, I'll, I'll throw in another couple of thoughts here.

KenMcCracken:

Um, I think it's established that the millennial generation have had

KenMcCracken:

a higher level of formal education than their predecessors, which

KenMcCracken:

has been advanced by the of next generation programs and courses that

KenMcCracken:

are available, which is a good thing.

KenMcCracken:

But on that basis, there must be the most ready generation that there has ever

KenMcCracken:

existed in the family business history.

KenMcCracken:

Um, so a adding more to their knowledge.

KenMcCracken:

Good.

KenMcCracken:

But are we significantly moving the dial in terms of affecting transitions?

KenMcCracken:

I mean you start, start looking at the broader demographic

KenMcCracken:

realities of these families.

KenMcCracken:

You know, people move in and out of relationships more

KenMcCracken:

than they did historically.

KenMcCracken:

They are blended families.

KenMcCracken:

There are families in which they could be a effectively a generation

KenMcCracken:

between people that would refer to themselves as siblings.

KenMcCracken:

So the old sort of idea of succession or transitions involving the senior and

KenMcCracken:

the next generation is just obsolete.

KenMcCracken:

And it is much more complex and much more interesting.

KenMcCracken:

And in the paper we're just trying to say, let's get to grips with

KenMcCracken:

some of these things and not just say, let's send the next gen on

KenMcCracken:

another course that is helpful.

KenMcCracken:

But there is much more to be discussed and we need to do that with a degree

KenMcCracken:

of rigor that maybe has been somewhat

Russ Haworth:

Yeah.

Russ Haworth:

And, and taking both of those points and, and looking at, uh, a very public

Russ Haworth:

example, very recent public example of both the longevity element and the,

Russ Haworth:

the blended, um, kind of, um, families.

Russ Haworth:

I, I kind of help but think of the, the royal family in terms of the,

Russ Haworth:

the queen's recent passing and, you know, prince King Charles as he is

Russ Haworth:

now, um, was effectively arising Jen.

Russ Haworth:

uh at the, the age of 73.

Russ Haworth:

And then if you e extrapolate out that, that life expectancy again, then

Russ Haworth:

William's gonna be into his seventies before he's looking at, um his time.

Russ Haworth:

And I guess that's a, a useful public example of what you are

Russ Haworth:

seeing amongst family businesses.

Russ Haworth:

I mean, the royal family is, I think of a family business of, of sorts.

Russ Haworth:

So is that a useful kind of, uh, real life example of the, some of topics

Russ Haworth:

that you've been exploring in the paper?

Dennis Jaffe:

Well, we were, mean, looking at, looking at, at, at a lot passed, um,

Dennis Jaffe:

we would to Prince Charles as saying, look at um, through his uh, prime um, to,

Dennis Jaffe:

um, you know, a position And, um, and, and the, the, Prince of being between

Dennis Jaffe:

the two and, the role, but uh, be taken.

Dennis Jaffe:

And, and there are many paths.

Dennis Jaffe:

the Harry and what life very um, um, and, um, and, uh, um, Um, they

Dennis Jaffe:

have wither, and, and, you know,

KenMcCracken:

But on that too, Dennis, the next generation have to consider

KenMcCracken:

the needs of the senior generation, which as you correctly pointed out,

KenMcCracken:

are experiences that have never arisen at any time in human history

KenMcCracken:

because people are living longer.

KenMcCracken:

So given that the only workable transition plan will be one that

KenMcCracken:

works for we have a vested interest, if you want to put it that way.

KenMcCracken:

Or we have an altruistic concern, if you want to put it that way, for the

KenMcCracken:

needs of others, not just promoting our own individual aspirations, dreams,

KenMcCracken:

or whatever you want to call them.

KenMcCracken:

And I think that's something that we talked a lot about and kind of

KenMcCracken:

appears in the paper that broadening.

KenMcCracken:

The discussion that way and not, not looking upon it as well.

KenMcCracken:

I have my individual aspirations, then I have my duties.

KenMcCracken:

No, you have your individual aspirations, then you have a humane

KenMcCracken:

concern for the people you love.

KenMcCracken:

So we're trying to figure out how we can elevate that conversation and hopefully

KenMcCracken:

in doing so that leads to more creativity.

KenMcCracken:

Two,

Dennis Jaffe:

and the old jet, the this is a completely situation.

Dennis Jaffe:

So a um,

KenMcCracken:

Yeah.

Russ Haworth:

and, and Stacy, in terms of, uh, again, you covered this within the,

Russ Haworth:

uh, white paper, but the, the key areas, there's obviously lots of moving parts

Russ Haworth:

with, with a transition, but what are some of the key areas that families really

Russ Haworth:

need to gain clarity on sort of before and during those transition processes?

Stacy Allred:

So Russ, at a really kinda high level, we're looking at

Stacy Allred:

strategy and to really simplify strategy.

Stacy Allred:

It's looking at where are we now, where, what can we do, what should we do, what

Stacy Allred:

will we do and how will we get there?

Stacy Allred:

And the thing that really holds transitions back in our experience is

Stacy Allred:

it from the viewpoint of the senior leader is not having a really clear

Stacy Allred:

North star on purpose their why and what that vibrant next chapter looks.

Stacy Allred:

And so, you know, and this is kind of woven throughout the, the

Stacy Allred:

paper, but through that process really getting clarity, there's the

Stacy Allred:

saying that you can get through any how, if you're clear on the why.

Stacy Allred:

And one question that I like to ask that, you know, just kind of, uh, simplifies

Stacy Allred:

and cuts through is to ask the senior leader, if you had gone through your

Stacy Allred:

transition right from the, the company and you were sitting at lunch with a

Stacy Allred:

good friend and the good friend asks you, how was the transition, what would

Stacy Allred:

you like to be able to res respond?

Stacy Allred:

And then also to look at it from the lens of different family members.

Stacy Allred:

If your spouse or partner was at lunch with a good friend and they asked you

Stacy Allred:

how was the transition, what would you like for them to be able to respond?

Stacy Allred:

And the same for the rising gen.

Stacy Allred:

So what that does is it gets you up to kind of.

Stacy Allred:

appreciating the system's nature of this, the impact that it has on the entire

Stacy Allred:

system, and starting to explore how do you bring the best version of yourself to

Stacy Allred:

the process to engage in something that is really hard and meaningful and important,

Stacy Allred:

and this real moment that matters.

Stacy Allred:

And so we just suggest before getting into like all of the detail, take

Stacy Allred:

that time to really figure out that North Star and in particular, do not

Stacy Allred:

discount the value of having a, you know, a plan for that vibrant next

Stacy Allred:

chapter as part of that overall process.

Russ Haworth:

A and that can be quite a, it's quite a straightforward question,

Russ Haworth:

but it's quite a complicated thought process for people to go through if it's

Russ Haworth:

not something they're used to doing.

Russ Haworth:

Right.

Russ Haworth:

If, if it's something where their um, identity, what they do, it has

Russ Haworth:

been laid out for, for 40 years, for example, to then to be asked to

Russ Haworth:

sit down and go through that, that question of what you would like this

Russ Haworth:

to look like, take some thought.

Russ Haworth:

It's not a kind of a tick box.

Russ Haworth:

Is, is that right?

Stacy Allred:

yes.

Stacy Allred:

You wanna build in time for plenty of diffuse thinking for, and that's

Stacy Allred:

one of the things, this is getting into another topic, but when

Stacy Allred:

transitions go well versus, you know, kind of the, the, the chaos.

Stacy Allred:

It's that you've left that time, you've really honored the process and you've

Stacy Allred:

done the deeper work and deeper thinking and having a guide, uh, you know,

Stacy Allred:

some supporters, some cheerleaders, some thinking partners along that

Stacy Allred:

journey can be incredibly helpful.

Russ Haworth:

And, and it brings me onto another topic that you mentioned in the,

Russ Haworth:

um, paper around self-reflection and, and perhaps a bit of time looking in the

Russ Haworth:

mirror and understanding, um, yourself.

Russ Haworth:

How would you describe the importance of self-reflection as,

Russ Haworth:

as part of a transition process?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Well, I mean, I, I think it builds off a lot of what

Daniel Trimarchi:

Stacy was just mentioning there.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I think that that sense of clarity is often coming from of self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi:

and, and self-reflection in all facets of life is very powerful.

Daniel Trimarchi:

That introspection.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I mean, it can be equally objective and subjective, um, but really what

Daniel Trimarchi:

it's looking to do is create that self-awareness on your thoughts,

Daniel Trimarchi:

your attitudes, your behaviors, um, and that's not just to help

Daniel Trimarchi:

understand the impact it has on you, but the impact that it has on others.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So knowing when and how to let go can be a very difficult point, and for a

Daniel Trimarchi:

lot of senior family members to engage in the process of letting go, this

Daniel Trimarchi:

self-reflection is vital to generate that.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Personal motivation.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, there needs to be that belief that it's the right thing to do.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and to the earlier conversation, is that the right thing to do for

Daniel Trimarchi:

me, the individual, or is that the right thing to do for us as a system?

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so by looking at those individual and collective benefits, I think that's where

Daniel Trimarchi:

we're seeing self-reflection play a role.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and I think my last point on that as well is it's a skill.

Daniel Trimarchi:

It's something that needs to be practiced.

Daniel Trimarchi:

It's not something that comes naturally to everyone.

Daniel Trimarchi:

so it's not to say that it's something you can just switch on, but something that

Daniel Trimarchi:

you need to focus and, and work hard at.

KenMcCracken:

I I, I'd like to add something to that if I could.

KenMcCracken:

Russ, uh, which is an element of judgment and criticism in, in that process, and I'm

KenMcCracken:

going to call an aid 300 year old Scotsman called Adam Smith, born 1723, famous

KenMcCracken:

for the Wealth of Nations, but Smith.

KenMcCracken:

You know, lots of good ideas that are not new ideas.

KenMcCracken:

And he created this idea of an impartial spectator, somebody that we can create

KenMcCracken:

in our imagination is endowed with characteristics that we want to have.

KenMcCracken:

So to, to Stacy's point, no, that person looks like the person we would

KenMcCracken:

like to become, but that, that doesn't just sort of float off into the ether.

KenMcCracken:

That is a person who's praised you seek and whose criticism you dread.

KenMcCracken:

when you're going through the hard work doing the transition, person should

KenMcCracken:

be sat in your shoulders praising what you do well and reminding you of the

KenMcCracken:

things that are not going so well.

KenMcCracken:

So the self-reflection is, um, to me, it's about I want to become

KenMcCracken:

and making that tangible and vivid enough to actually start influencing

KenMcCracken:

the behaviors and how you act now.

KenMcCracken:

And if other people.

KenMcCracken:

I are aware of that they can help by keeping you in lane when you stray

KenMcCracken:

and giving you congratulations when you succeed in becoming that person.

KenMcCracken:

I think in, in a group, if we're all trying to do that,

KenMcCracken:

well that's quite powerful.

KenMcCracken:

I think it must be very challenging.

KenMcCracken:

Well, I know it's very challenging cause I do this with clients, so I, I I know

KenMcCracken:

it's really, really hard and when the person, someone would like to become is

KenMcCracken:

not something that someone else likes and they go, oh, I didn't see that coming.

KenMcCracken:

I thought, for example, the next gen.

KenMcCracken:

So I thought you'd be around for another 10 years.

KenMcCracken:

And the senior just said, well actually I was aiming to be out of here in 24 months.

KenMcCracken:

uh, I'm doing lots of other things that would be meaningful to me to

KenMcCracken:

give purpose to the rest of my life.

KenMcCracken:

So, but that conversation, it just shoots forward when you.

KenMcCracken:

Use that technique of G getting beyond are now in imagining what you would

KenMcCracken:

like to become, and then using that as a, a very, very practical benchmark.

KenMcCracken:

not woowoo this stuff.

KenMcCracken:

This is putting stuff out there that says you use this and you will

KenMcCracken:

move forward, and if you don't, you will be judged and held to account.

Russ Haworth:

Yeah.

Russ Haworth:

And to, to help with that.

Russ Haworth:

If, if, if people are listening and that's resonating, but they're kind of,

Russ Haworth:

they don't really know where to start.

Russ Haworth:

There, there's some questions that you outline in the, the white paper

Russ Haworth:

to kind of, uh, encourage and, and to support that self, um, reflection.

Russ Haworth:

Um, Daniel, perhaps you could kind of run us through those, um, questions,

Russ Haworth:

um, for, for the benefit of those that won't have read the paper yet.

Daniel Trimarchi:

That was, that was definitely a theme of the paper.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I think as, as people work through it, you'll see that we tried at each point

Daniel Trimarchi:

to make sure that we did bring some quite tangible actions to this and, and ways

Daniel Trimarchi:

to bring, as Ken said, a lot of what, what we're seeing in practice, um, to

Daniel Trimarchi:

life for those that are dealing with it.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So, I mean, some of those questions build off that idea of, well, what does

Daniel Trimarchi:

the next stage of my life look like?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Painting that picture of the desired future state.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Uh, it talks about I even interested in opening a new chapter?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Again, to, to Ken's last point, what I want may be very different

Daniel Trimarchi:

to, to what others are expecting me to want or even wanting me to want.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so how do I understand my continuing role within the business?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, that idea of binary succession, I know we'll touch on it later on today,

Daniel Trimarchi:

but that idea of I'm either in or I'm out, I'm either in charge or I'm nobody.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, how do we move away from that as a, an assumption or a myth?

Daniel Trimarchi:

and then how can I apply my knowledge and experience in other areas

Daniel Trimarchi:

outside of the family business?

Daniel Trimarchi:

Uh, we're seeing this in the rise of family offices.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Uh, we're seeing families build concurrent wealth outside their business and even

Daniel Trimarchi:

looking outside of that, involved in local community mentoring, uh, even

Daniel Trimarchi:

politics, finding ways to continue that.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, as Dennis mentioned, that bonus.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so these are just a, a few of the questions, um, that we've posed.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I mean, one that sticks with me the most, which I've, I've had some

Daniel Trimarchi:

great conversations with families around was, well, okay, what needs

Daniel Trimarchi:

to be true in order for me to be ready to transition the business?

Daniel Trimarchi:

And, and what are some of the either correct or incorrect assumptions that

Daniel Trimarchi:

are being made about the business needs to be at a certain level or

Daniel Trimarchi:

the, the succession, um, and the next generation need to have a certain

Daniel Trimarchi:

level of experience or qualifications.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So starting to, to benchmark some of those through this self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi:

process, um, that was really the goal of some of these open questions

Daniel Trimarchi:

to, to try and bring that out.

Russ Haworth:

and I guess the, a blessing and a curse in, in terms.

Russ Haworth:

Particularly when we're talking about sort of family owned businesses is if,

Russ Haworth:

if you're working in a public sector that has a retirement age of 65 and you've

Russ Haworth:

got your red circle around the date in the calendar of your last day, you get

Russ Haworth:

your carriage clock and off you go.

Russ Haworth:

That that's a very definitive date to be able to go.

Russ Haworth:

Right.

Russ Haworth:

This is when I, I need to, it doesn't necessarily make the transition

Russ Haworth:

afterwards become easier, but it's much kind of more clear cut.

Russ Haworth:

I guess the blessing and a curse in terms of the family business

Russ Haworth:

side of things is that it's more kind of spread out than that.

Russ Haworth:

It's not a date necessarily ringed around the, the calendar and the,

Russ Haworth:

the process can take time and we're talking about the effort that's

Russ Haworth:

involved in, in doing this as well.

Russ Haworth:

What are some of your thoughts in terms of sort of beginning this process and.

Russ Haworth:

Uh there's a, a Chinese proverb.

Russ Haworth:

I think the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.

Russ Haworth:

Uh the next best time is now is, is the same true of transition planning.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Oh, definitely.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I think we, we see that with that.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Whole concept of, of constant communication.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I mean the, the role of self-reflection can be then, um, repurposed across

Daniel Trimarchi:

the entire group where you've got that collective reflection.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I mean, Stacy mentioned that idea of, of having that, why having that North

Daniel Trimarchi:

star, um, because as you mentioned, I mean, the average tenure of a family

Daniel Trimarchi:

business CEO six, seven times that of a, a non-family business ceo.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so having less.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Fixed information leads to potentially more assumptions.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so that idea of, of starting this process early, um, we saw

Daniel Trimarchi:

that even within the paper, we looked at this idea of regret.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and obviously if you commence your reflection at the end of your

Daniel Trimarchi:

journey, the ability to influence or change that is, is more limited.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so part of what we uncovered here was that this self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi:

piece is not something to complete at the end of any stage.

Daniel Trimarchi:

It's something that should be constant because having that more optimistic

Daniel Trimarchi:

lens to it says, well, I can reflect on.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Missed opportunities or missed chances, and I can write those.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so I think it, it really hits to your point there, which is the earlier

Daniel Trimarchi:

that we can start these conversations, that we can build this process.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, it comes to point, won't steal the thunder now, but around why we

Daniel Trimarchi:

don't call it succession planning.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, because we are looking at continuity, we are looking at longevity.

Daniel Trimarchi:

So I think that idea of, of starting early is, is a good one and, and something

Daniel Trimarchi:

that a lot of families are starting to become, I think in my experience, a

Daniel Trimarchi:

lot more proactive than historically.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, we may have been.

KenMcCracken:

Could I, could I add some, add something to that Ross?

Russ Haworth:

please.

Russ Haworth:

Yeah.

KenMcCracken:

in response to your question, why not set a date ? Um, and but

KenMcCracken:

set a date in the context of the reality of the demographics of your family.

Russ Haworth:

Mm-hmm.

KenMcCracken:

Now, you know, if you're of an age where retirement is front of

KenMcCracken:

mind, they've, um, the possibility of that

Russ Haworth:

I have.

KenMcCracken:

might be affected by the age of the next generation.

KenMcCracken:

If they're 1920, they might not be ready to make a commitment to a long

KenMcCracken:

time career in the family business.

KenMcCracken:

But if you're sitting at 60, 70, 80 years old in the next generation, or

KenMcCracken:

40 50, do you have a duty to them to start moving the dial because of their.

KenMcCracken:

It's not necessarily just about what you want, it's about what

KenMcCracken:

they need and what they want.

KenMcCracken:

So, um, the setting of a date, I think being a prac, a practitioner

KenMcCracken:

at heart is quite a good idea.

KenMcCracken:

But you have that is relevant to the reality of the

KenMcCracken:

demographics of your family.

KenMcCracken:

And I think, as I said earlier, as those become more complex and people have

KenMcCracken:

blended families and kids at different ages and stages of life, that's not just

KenMcCracken:

as straightforward as we might think.

KenMcCracken:

So yeah, we're thinking about.

Dennis Jaffe:

do succession planning, we wanna but our And, and them understand

Dennis Jaffe:

is that, let not you to than of the I you restrictions on the wealth, um, uh, I,

Dennis Jaffe:

think of elder that that said and I If your And he new And I began to say, well,

Dennis Jaffe:

to do about it him stop them them that so, he have um, the they're we observe, I And

Dennis Jaffe:

it's the, but uh, a crisis right always of actually um, make a little it, it's,

KenMcCracken:

yeah.

Dennis Jaffe:

face

KenMcCracken:

And also help the other generations in that discussion

KenMcCracken:

to understand anxiety exists.

KenMcCracken:

It's not just the seniors generation to fix that in their own head or heart.

KenMcCracken:

They are part of this network of relationships.

KenMcCracken:

So to figure out how we collectively can help them to address their needs come

KenMcCracken:

up with something that is a workable.

KenMcCracken:

I think just everyone dealing with their own stuff in isolation of each other

KenMcCracken:

just doesn't, well, my experience doesn't really get the thing moving, uh, it's

KenMcCracken:

very, very important for what you say.

KenMcCracken:

But I think the next gen, if you could use that phrase, should have a

KenMcCracken:

significant interest in how their seniors are coping and do their best to help.

Dennis Jaffe:

a um, thing that that comes is, is the, the to

Dennis Jaffe:

see them as, uh, significance.

Dennis Jaffe:

And is they're, they're being nice and they're getting a anything.

Dennis Jaffe:

And doesn't get say, and I asked him, why 40 years get together playing?

Dennis Jaffe:

He said, well, and I it's order to, and they're saying, yes, he'll

Dennis Jaffe:

be know, you we're what, that make generation is, um, and could be doing

Dennis Jaffe:

because of this, this desire not

Russ Haworth:

Yeah, it's a, it's a great point.

Russ Haworth:

And, and I want to, to go back if we can, just to the topic of regret.

Russ Haworth:

Cause it's something that is, uh, it, something I'm passionate

Russ Haworth:

about, I passionately believe is that life is not rehearsal.

Russ Haworth:

We are here once and we get this shot life once, and we're all

Russ Haworth:

kind of making up as we go longer.

Russ Haworth:

It's the first time we've ever done anything really in, in, in that sense.

Russ Haworth:

But, but in terms of the linking that with the longevity issue that

Russ Haworth:

we, we spoke about earlier is not only are we living longer, we are

Russ Haworth:

living more vital healthy lives.

Russ Haworth:

Which again, I think creates the potential to, um bust the myth that retirement has

Russ Haworth:

to be this kind of sedentary experience of sitting in a rocking chair with a pipe.

Russ Haworth:

It can be a very.

Russ Haworth:

active and very, um, uh, kind of empowering phase in our lives.

Russ Haworth:

And I think linking that back to the, the, um, sort of wanting to avoid

Russ Haworth:

regret, uh, I dunno if you're familiar with the work of Bronny Ware, who was

Russ Haworth:

a palliative care nurse who researched with the patients that she was working

Russ Haworth:

with, the top five regrets of the dying.

Russ Haworth:

Um again, I can link that up in, in the show notes, but the, the results from that

Russ Haworth:

were, you know nobody said, I wish I'd spent more time at work a as passionate

Russ Haworth:

as they might have been about that.

Russ Haworth:

It was, I wish I'd live a life that was true to myself.

Russ Haworth:

Which again, speaks to that, um, element of self-reflection and

Russ Haworth:

understanding who it is we really are and what we can really be.

Russ Haworth:

And the, the kind of that phase of our lives can be a really

Russ Haworth:

exciting point to embrace that.

Daniel Trimarchi:

I, I think that ties to even, um, Sarah Lawrence

Daniel Trimarchi:

Light foot's kind of definition of the third chapter, and, and developing

Daniel Trimarchi:

that compelling vision of the future.

Daniel Trimarchi:

Um, and that, to your point, is a vision of and growth as opposed to Um, I think

Daniel Trimarchi:

back to the, the recent FFI conference, um, where one of the speakers was

Daniel Trimarchi:

talking about, uh, aging is a mindset, it was that whole idea of, well, how

Daniel Trimarchi:

do we actually bring a positive and progressive and, and growth mindset to

Daniel Trimarchi:

what, what she called that third chapter?

Daniel Trimarchi:

But I guess what we are talking about is that life post.

Daniel Trimarchi:

, um, 75, 80 post CEO leader of the business, and to say, well, how do we

Daniel Trimarchi:

actually avoid some of that regret, um, by taking advantage of what we're

Daniel Trimarchi:

seeing, which is, like you said, living longer, and having more opportunity.

Daniel Trimarchi:

And so I think bringing that into the conversation and, and channeling

Daniel Trimarchi:

that with purpose, um, is, is what is producing the best results.

Russ Haworth:

One.

Russ Haworth:

One of the.

Russ Haworth:

Kind of common challenges that, uh, I guess we all face in, in

Russ Haworth:

the work that we do is the the fear of loss that people feel.

Russ Haworth:

You mentioned, Dennis, the anxiety around the future, and I think part of

Russ Haworth:

that is founded in this fear of loss.

Russ Haworth:

H how important do you feel it is to kind of face up to that

Russ Haworth:

fear as, as part of a transition?

Dennis Jaffe:

Well, that's so I that next Um, will be, I have years and lose my,

Dennis Jaffe:

role in the And so create next chapters.

Dennis Jaffe:

I think uh, Daniel of the things that people can do.

Dennis Jaffe:

Well, leader.

Dennis Jaffe:

one that retirement age at 60 the been going And I of the

Dennis Jaffe:

and um, I said, well, gee.

Dennis Jaffe:

And he said, I retired at 60.

Dennis Jaffe:

um, it's, gee, , what have you been doing for 30 years?

Dennis Jaffe:

And he said, well, 60, there's a in we, and um, we're and we crappy

Dennis Jaffe:

jobs, um, that committee and things congressman he retired from leading the

Dennis Jaffe:

And I think um, I Retire and about it.

Dennis Jaffe:

Um, and, to you have the midlife activity.

Dennis Jaffe:

It's when you like in your, you wanna so to business is, is to the your If

Dennis Jaffe:

you've done have to why have to And, um, running the be saying a you wanna

Dennis Jaffe:

you're uh, respectful your family.

KenMcCracken:

think, and I just asked a couple of brief comments there, um,

KenMcCracken:

without repeating it, I hope without repeating anything, I think on the

KenMcCracken:

point of regrets, I think sometimes you have to come to terms with them.

KenMcCracken:

I mean, if you regret not doing something is because you devoted

KenMcCracken:

all, all your waking hours to building your family's business.

KenMcCracken:

There's not all of those that can be now revisited.

KenMcCracken:

These are absences in your life caused by choices you made, and

KenMcCracken:

you need to come to terms by that.

KenMcCracken:

Sometimes the desire to kinda wind the clock back and do the things that

KenMcCracken:

you might have done in your forties, now that you're in your seventies,

KenMcCracken:

that gets really confusing and very So yeah, sometimes you have to acknowledge

KenMcCracken:

them and come to terms with them.

KenMcCracken:

I think also losses and fears are really lead in words.

KenMcCracken:

Oh, they just make you bristling, kind of bring you out in a sweat.

KenMcCracken:

I think we can maybe help that conversation by saying, look, if you

KenMcCracken:

feel so the, the, the i the examples given loss of identity and status

KenMcCracken:

and even loss of economic security.

KenMcCracken:

So if you're being asked to stand down from the family business,

KenMcCracken:

then what we need to discuss is how do we, uh, redefine these?

KenMcCracken:

Needs in your life to ensure that you will have status,

KenMcCracken:

identity, and economic security.

KenMcCracken:

You need to feel secure.

KenMcCracken:

Now, it might just not be doing what you've done today, but there

KenMcCracken:

could be other things in Dennis, you mentioned coaching or other

KenMcCracken:

organizations or whatever it is.

KenMcCracken:

And also making sure that you feel you have enough money to look after

KenMcCracken:

your needs as you age for longer than your predecessors will have done.

KenMcCracken:

So how, how do we deal with that?

KenMcCracken:

Um, rather than pumping up the kind of negative emotion of loss and fear is

KenMcCracken:

to say, let's be practical and figure out what we as a family and as an

KenMcCracken:

enterprise can do to address these things.

KenMcCracken:

Because that will help this process of transition to move forward by

KenMcCracken:

enabling that person normally one of significant power, uh, to move forward.

KenMcCracken:

And without that movement, we are really marking time, discussions perhaps,

KenMcCracken:

but not really getting anywhere.

Russ Haworth:

Yeah.

Russ Haworth:

Thank you, andcan.

Russ Haworth:

Continuing on a point you were making earlier about.

Russ Haworth:

Importance of kind of understanding what we're each going through

Russ Haworth:

during these transitions.

Russ Haworth:

One thing that struck me throughout the conversation so far around

Russ Haworth:

transitions is we haven't spoken about, nor am I suggesting we do by

Russ Haworth:

the way, but we haven't spoken about any other kind of technical stuff.

Russ Haworth:

The, the potential shared transfers for different structures for the,

Russ Haworth:

the kind of what we've been talking about is much more around the

Russ Haworth:

emotional elements of transitions.

Russ Haworth:

Uh, and so I guess what role does empathy play in that?

Russ Haworth:

You, you touched on it earlier, but, but perhaps you could speak

Russ Haworth:

to that a bit more in terms of the role that empathy can play in, uh

Russ Haworth:

successful transaction, uh, transition.

KenMcCracken:

Yeah, I think the, um, I think also just for, come

KenMcCracken:

onto that, those are the topics about the quotes hard stuff.

KenMcCracken:

The share class is the tax plan.

KenMcCracken:

I think often they're a proxy for these discussions anyway.

KenMcCracken:

They're just being conducted under that, uh, kind of heading because those

KenMcCracken:

are the topics that people feel worth, uh, feel comfortable talking about.

KenMcCracken:

But when we're talking about the transfer of ownership, we're talking about

KenMcCracken:

the transfer of wealth and power and opportunity and status, et cetera as well.

KenMcCracken:

So yeah, we get into those topics no matter where, you know, where we start.

KenMcCracken:

to your point about empathy, um, or mu mutual sympathy, really feel as

KenMcCracken:

I problems come through some of my mates, we'd need to pump this up.

KenMcCracken:

There's a real theme of individualism in these, and you, you mentioned it at,

KenMcCracken:

at the very outset, I want this, and my idea as to what to get what I want is

KenMcCracken:

that you should do something about it.

KenMcCracken:

So all I've asked you to do is change, which probably means giving up something

KenMcCracken:

that you want to get what I want.

KenMcCracken:

I just feel that these conversations can very easily descend into acri

KenMcCracken:

in accusations of selfishness.

KenMcCracken:

So you can the argument or, or, or the discussion.

KenMcCracken:

And so to give a practical example, using something that you said earlier,

KenMcCracken:

Dennis, if the next gen can get together, don't they spend their time

KenMcCracken:

talking about what they think the seniors want and what they think they

KenMcCracken:

can do to help them get what they.

KenMcCracken:

And when the seniors sit down to talk to whoever they're going to

KenMcCracken:

have a chat with, they should be thinking about what, how, how well

KenMcCracken:

do I understand the next generation want and how they feel and knowledge

KenMcCracken:

can help her understanding of that.

KenMcCracken:

And there's lots of knowledge and of it's been mentioned in passing, its referenced

KenMcCracken:

in the white paper around what, what we are likely to feel we need at certain

KenMcCracken:

stages of life in our young adulthood in mid age and in our elder years.

KenMcCracken:

So we can use that knowledge to start understanding what the other people in

KenMcCracken:

this conversation are needing figuring out how we can help them get there.

KenMcCracken:

And uh, I think that helps the conversation, not just in a

KenMcCracken:

kind of compassionate sense, but in a very practical sense.

KenMcCracken:

Uh, we can all bring something to that conversation and we need

KenMcCracken:

everyone to bring something.

KenMcCracken:

You can't just say, well, that's up to you, chum.

KenMcCracken:

You make your mind up.

KenMcCracken:

I'll wait for you to make a decision.

KenMcCracken:

You, you've just stalled everything at that point.

KenMcCracken:

So for me, getting to that conversation with that degree of empathy or

KenMcCracken:

mutual sympathy for the interest of others, I think we start to really

KenMcCracken:

see the creativity coming through.

KenMcCracken:

and I'm not saying that everyone will come up with suggestions that other

KenMcCracken:

people want to hear, but as long as they're coming up with suggestions,

KenMcCracken:

we've got something to talk about.

KenMcCracken:

Um, so I think it's, uh, a powerful.

KenMcCracken:

Uh, reservoir to, that we can tap into for these, for these discussions.

KenMcCracken:

And I, I've, say that having tried to do it in practice, I've done this at

KenMcCracken:

conferences and got each generation to talk about the interests of the others.

KenMcCracken:

And it's astonishing what they come up with.

KenMcCracken:

And it's just amazing to feel that afterwards they're going to sit down

KenMcCracken:

with their own families and have a better appreciation of what other, those whom

KenMcCracken:

they love or respect or at least they're related to, going to want out of this.

KenMcCracken:

And that's really what succession transitions is ultimately

KenMcCracken:

going to have to deal with.

KenMcCracken:

And then you can express it in a tax plan or a shareholders

KenMcCracken:

agreement and all that good stuff.

KenMcCracken:

But until we really hit these other fundamentals with some, like that, infused

KenMcCracken:

with that sense of uh, for the others who are part of this, , I think we struggle.

KenMcCracken:

So I'd like to think that that in the white paper will help people to start

KenMcCracken:

approaching that with some imagination.

Dennis Jaffe:

thought is that's is Fear is To or they can resist

Dennis Jaffe:

getting together comfortable.

Dennis Jaffe:

Let's not, getting to and, and to understand our differences.

Stacy Allred:

Yep.

Stacy Allred:

And if I could quickly add to that, one of the things that was really

Stacy Allred:

important to the four of us as we created this paper was to include lots

Stacy Allred:

of practical things that you could do as a family to make a difference.

Stacy Allred:

So, um, along the lines of empathy with permission from, uh, David Gray,

Stacy Allred:

we included the Empathy map canvas, which is a really simple framework that

Stacy Allred:

makes this more practical and doable.

Stacy Allred:

And so, building on Ken's example, it might be the rising generation,

Stacy Allred:

putting themselves into the shoes of the senior generation and, and going

Stacy Allred:

through that empathy map canvas.

Stacy Allred:

Who are we emphasizing with?

Stacy Allred:

Who are we empathizing with?

Stacy Allred:

What do they need to do?

Stacy Allred:

What do they see?

Stacy Allred:

What do they.

Stacy Allred:

What do they do?

Stacy Allred:

What do they hear?

Stacy Allred:

And then what do they think and feel?

Stacy Allred:

What are the pains and what are the gains?

Stacy Allred:

And I think it's important to remember that, you know, business

Stacy Allred:

owners are typically doers, right?

Stacy Allred:

They're very busy, they're very active, they're used to

Stacy Allred:

doing and accomplishing a lot.

Stacy Allred:

And so to really slow the whole family system down and get into

Stacy Allred:

that more reflective space, uh, I keep coming back to the saying of

Stacy Allred:

you don't learn from experience.

Stacy Allred:

You learn from reflecting on experience.

Stacy Allred:

And so kind of that quiet, reflective time and some of these frameworks that

Stacy Allred:

allow us to get up on the balcony and take that reflective time are are important.

KenMcCracken:

Yeah, and, and if I could ask something there picking

KenMcCracken:

up in the points that being made, and then as you said, or some

KenMcCracken:

families, yeah, you're right.

KenMcCracken:

Some families find this really difficult.

KenMcCracken:

You don't have to talk to your own family about this.

KenMcCracken:

There.

KenMcCracken:

The needs of people at different stages of adulthood are well documented and.

KenMcCracken:

would be really great to think that NextGen programs could include

KenMcCracken:

imagining based on that knowledge, your senior generation are feeling

KenMcCracken:

and thinking and wanting, and to speak to other people of your generation so

KenMcCracken:

that they can add their thoughts and creativity to to aid your understanding.

KenMcCracken:

And in the room next door, the senior generation are doing exactly the same

KenMcCracken:

thing, talking to their peers about the need of next generation generally so that

KenMcCracken:

they can gain a better understanding.

KenMcCracken:

And maybe that would help start the conversation uh, yeah, it can be tough

KenMcCracken:

just to sort of descend into that type of conversation with your relatives, but you

KenMcCracken:

don't need to always just do it that way.

Russ Haworth:

Yeah, and I think we, uh, um, might all advocate as well

Russ Haworth:

that if it's not something that you can necessarily feel comfortable doing, uh

Russ Haworth:

off your own back to, to utilize, um, somebody to, who's able to facilitate

Russ Haworth:

that, who's able to help guide that as well because, um, it, it can be quite

Russ Haworth:

intimidating just to go right guys, we're gonna sit down and I've heard this

Russ Haworth:

podcast and so we're gonna sit in separate rooms and, um, talk about this stuff.

Russ Haworth:

It, it can be something that can be very beneficial to have facilitated.

KenMcCracken:

Yes, but let's not be, you know, we, we are,

KenMcCracken:

we are all practitioners here.

KenMcCracken:

So yeah, of course we're going to say that's a great idea, but, you know,

KenMcCracken:

DIY this a bit, you need to do more than any of us could ever do for you.

KenMcCracken:

And the idea is to give you the skills and knowledge to be able to understand these

KenMcCracken:

predicaments and figure out solutions.

KenMcCracken:

So I would encourage both you know, yeah, get good help.

KenMcCracken:

There's good ideas as including those in this white paper that I'm

KenMcCracken:

hoping will be of practical help to many families to get on with this.

Russ Haworth:

So that brings to a close part.

Russ Haworth:

One of this conversation.

Russ Haworth:

With Dennis, Ken, Daniel, and Stacy.

Russ Haworth:

Part two will be released.

Russ Haworth:

Very shortly where we continue the conversation and delve into the white

Russ Haworth:

paper that they have co authored.

Russ Haworth:

As a reminder, you can find this at.

Russ Haworth:

The ultra high net worth Institute.

Russ Haworth:

Institute website, which is U H N w institute.org.

Russ Haworth:

And we will provide a link in the show notes to.

Russ Haworth:

. So part two on its way and until then take care

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