Re-imagining Transitions Part 1

Russ Haworth: 00:01:02

to this week's episode of the family.

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Business podcast.

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We're focusing in this series on the topic of succession, as it is commonly known.

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Uh, those that have listened to the show for a while will know I

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prefer the term continuity planning, but typically it seems to be

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referred to a succession planning.

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Uh, we covered that a little bit in these coming.

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Uh, episodes.

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Um, and, uh, I think this, um, Very good arguments made for renaming it

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Or reframing it as either continuity or transition

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planning rather than succession.

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Um, this episode is part one of a two part discussion with four fantastic.

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Testic guests.

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So I am joined by Dennis Jaffe by Ken McCracken.

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Daniel Ki and Stacy all red.

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Now they introduce themselves at the beginning of this episode.

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But we split the interview into two because it was a long

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and detailed conversation.

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So, um, part two will be released very shortly.

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This episode.

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Um, introduces the paper that they have a code.

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Authored and collaborated on.

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And it's a fantastic paper.

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We're going to link it up in the show notes, but, um, it has come about

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through the work that, uh, all four do within the ultra high net worth

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Institute, which is something that I've mentioned quite a few times on the show.

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I'm fortunate enough to be part of their advisory board and

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faculty and the work that they are doing is absolutely fantastic.

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So I suggest you check them out.

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The website is U H N w institute.org.

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And as well as the link in the show notes, there is also a link

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in, on that homepage to the white.

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White paper that has been authored by my guests this week.

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As ever if you haven't done so already.

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Please head over to fam bees podcast.com and join the newsletter mailing list.

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I send out a monthly newsletter with some thoughts and links to

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various useful topics in there.

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Russ Haworth: 00:03:21

So, as I say, this is part one part, two will follow shortly.

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Uh i'm sure you will enjoy it it's a fantastic uh, engaging conversation with

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four fantastic guests so i will hand Over to that interview now Uh and enjoy

Russ Haworth: 00:03:35

Well, hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Family Business Podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:40

I am joined by not one, not two, not three, but four guests on today's show.

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And we are gonna be talking about the topic of re-imagining

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family business Transitions.

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Now, my guests on the show this week have co-authored a paper together, which we'll

Russ Haworth: 00:03:57

be referring to throughout the show.

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Um, and the first, uh, thing I would like to do is have our

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guests introduce themselves.

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So , we have Dennis, Jeff, Ken McCracken, Daniel Tramar, and Stacy Allred.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:11

So Dennis, if you could kick us off with an intro into who you are, what you do,

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a bit of background for our audience who may not have heard you before.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:19

And then we can go around the room and, uh, introduce ourselves.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:04:22

I think like a lot of people in this, this kind of complex

Dennis Jaffe: 00:04:25

field, um, uh, we origins in uh, I didn't wanna I didn't wanna sit in an and a,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:04:44

business and, uh, became a sociologist and worked in organizational change.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:04:50

And, um, I and I got Before, even so this background in family and,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:08

um, you know, found my calling.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:09

Um, and I've been doing it, uh, ever since.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:12

Now it's been about, um, 40 years at the, and, um, uh, since the field began and

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:18

I've been in it, uh, my family and one and organization is and the challenges of So

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:40

and all uh, you know, large generations and are dealing with the complexities of

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:51

switching generations, of balancing the keeping the family kind of, uh, a sense

Dennis Jaffe: 00:05:58

of family connection and managing the diversification of, um, of wealth, uh,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:06:05

beyond just a single business into, um, a number of different family enterprises.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:12

And I'll, I'll, I'll pick it up from there, Russ, if that's okay.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:15

Um, Ken McCracken, I'm an independent family business consultant.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:20

I live in Scotland and work now mainly in the United Kingdom and Ireland,

KenMcCracken: 00:06:26

although previously I've worked in the.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:30

In other parts of the world.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:31

I can't get anywhere near the longevity of Dennis, but I've been in and around

KenMcCracken: 00:06:35

the field since about the mid 1990s.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:39

And that happened because the first university based education

KenMcCracken: 00:06:42

program for family businesses in the United Kingdom was in Scotland.

KenMcCracken: 00:06:47

So that was my good fortune, and I have thoroughly enjoyed doing the

KenMcCracken: 00:06:51

work since then, which has been with families, going through transitions,

KenMcCracken: 00:06:55

helping them to establish effective governance, and then helping them to

KenMcCracken: 00:06:59

implement those type of arrangements.

KenMcCracken: 00:07:02

And it's a joy and pleasure as it is to work with my colleagues

KenMcCracken: 00:07:05

here and to be part of your show.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:10

I'll, um, follow on from Ken.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:12

So Daniel Tramar here and it's, it's great to be back on the podcast

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:16

and, and joining everyone today.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:18

And I think Russ, we've, we've spoken over the years across a few different

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:23

countries and within my role, so after 14 years with with kp, kpmg,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:29

um, I've relocated back to Australia.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:32

Um, so I spent the last and a half years in our Canadian practice, uh, leading

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:37

on family dynamics and governance.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:39

And prior to that, Uh, three years in the uk, uh, alongside

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:44

another one of today's panelists.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:46

So my day-to-day role is, is working within our family business practice,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:52

working with high net wealth families, family offices, um, similar to what

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:07:57

Dennis mentioned, that relationship between the family and the wealth.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:01

Um, and it makes today's topic one of, of special interest and something that,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:06

that I see a lot of in business families.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:08

And so how we can provide, um, process and framework and bring structure to

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:14

what is often a, a very unstructured conversation, uh, helping families

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:19

manage that complexity and that change is, is where I spend most of my time.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:24

Uh, in addition to that, uh, I'm also part of our Global Center of

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:28

Excellence for Family Business.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:30

So able to connect with colleagues around the world, um, looking at the tools

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:36

and resources that, that we develop and the thought leadership, um, similar to

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:40

what we're talking about here today.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:42

So it's been a, a great journey, but even just listening to, to

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:47

Ken and Dennis and, and Stacy to follow, um, the, the novice with only

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:08:52

14, 15 years in the field so far.

Stacy Allred: 00:08:54

and Stacy Allred here.

Stacy Allred: 00:08:56

Uh, rounding out this very esteemed panel and just to say it's been so

Stacy Allred: 00:09:00

much fun to collaborate and, and, and work on this topic together.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:04

I started off with a pretty traditional career masters in tax.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:08

I was in public accounting with EY and uh, did that for nine years.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:13

And then I found myself in San Francisco at the height of the.com.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:18

And for the first time in my career, my clients weren't my father's

Stacy Allred: 00:09:22

age, but my age and younger.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:24

And we just had this explosion of financial capital being created, uh,

Stacy Allred: 00:09:29

what felt like, you know, very rapidly.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:32

And I kept getting all these qualitative questions around what impact.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:37

, uh, does my wealth have on the motivation of my 22 and 25 year old?

Stacy Allred: 00:09:42

It was that particular question one day that I threw up my

Stacy Allred: 00:09:45

arms and said, enough's enough.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:46

If I wanna be helpful, I better start to figure out these questions and

Stacy Allred: 00:09:50

cold called wealth psychologists.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:52

So my life got a lot more exciting, needless to say.

Stacy Allred: 00:09:56

And from then in working with Families of Success, have found my way into the family

Stacy Allred: 00:10:02

business field and really appreciate the significance and the challenge of going

Stacy Allred: 00:10:11

through transitions of our topic today.

Stacy Allred: 00:10:14

A real moment that matters.

Stacy Allred: 00:10:16

So thank you, Russ, for having us.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:19

Thank you.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:19

And first comment on, uh, from, from my perspective is what a

Russ Haworth: 00:10:24

fantastic group of collaborators.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:27

It's, it's an example of our ability within the field to be

Russ Haworth: 00:10:31

able to collaborate, collaborate across different countries, across

Russ Haworth: 00:10:36

different backgrounds in terms of how we got to, to being in the field.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:39

So, uh, you guys are setting a great example, um, and hopefully

Russ Haworth: 00:10:43

many more to, to come on, uh, that side of things as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:46

Now, as we mentioned, you've collaborated on a paper together and the focus

Russ Haworth: 00:10:51

of that is the topic of da, today's conversation, which is re-imagining

Russ Haworth: 00:10:56

family business transitions.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:59

You talk about in that paper I've had the, the, um, benefit of having a, a

Russ Haworth: 00:11:03

kind of a preview of it and, and I've had a read of it and it, it's fantastic.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:07

We'll link it up in the show notes.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:09

, but you speak about challenging some of the assumptions that

Russ Haworth: 00:11:13

are linked to transitions.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:15

Firstly, how did you come to be collaborating together given that you

Russ Haworth: 00:11:19

are in different places, uh, in the world, and secondly, what are some of the

Russ Haworth: 00:11:24

assumptions you are looking to challenge?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:28

so.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:30

Uh, I think that this white paper's been a product of various

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:34

associations that we each have with the ultra high net worth institute.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:38

And so, um, for those that that aren't familiar a, a not-for-profit think

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:44

tank, um, and learning exchange, the institute is, uh, a group of

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:49

individuals and associations that are really looking to elevate the wealth

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:53

management industry to a new standard.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:11:55

And it's something that we've each had various connections with

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:00

and, and something that started a lot of these conversations.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:03

So I, I think back to our initial conversations, Stacy and I had

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:08

probably over a year ago now, um, and we started talking about the process.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:14

Managing transitions within business families and how that has

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:18

continued to evolve over the years.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:21

And we found that it was a multitude of, of various models and frameworks

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:27

and components often intertwined within different processes.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:31

Um, and I think back to, to Stacey quoting, I think George Box at the time

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:36

where all models are wrong, but some are.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:40

and that, that kind of prompted us to think about how do we pick

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:44

apart the transitions process?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:46

Um, and as you mentioned, some of the assumptions and the myths that

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:50

are, are built into that process.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:52

And so power of, of that collaboration that you were mentioning kind of

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:12:58

us to keep the conversation going.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:00

And, and we had the, the privilege and honor of, of Dennis and

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:04

Ken joining that discussion.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:06

And I think from there we were able to isolate the, the focus of

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:11

this white paper being the, the disproportionate focus on the next

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:16

gen within the transition process.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:18

And we wanted to address that assumption that just because the senior

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:22

generation may be well established and experienced in their roles, um,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:27

it's often assumed that they require minimal support in the transition.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:32

And so the white paper really helped us sharpen that focus on the senior

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:36

generation and the specific support that they need in order to facilitate their

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:41

own personal transitions, um, as well as those of their family and the business.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:46

And you can see that through the, the rethink, rebalance, and

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:13:51

reinvent kind of framework that we've used within the white paper.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:57

Fantastic.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:58

And d does anybody want to add into, um, that particular, uh, question on, on the,

Russ Haworth: 00:14:05

the impact of some of those assumptions when we're working on transitions?

Russ Haworth: 00:14:09

If there is an overfocus on, say, the needs of the, the rising generation

Russ Haworth: 00:14:14

and, and perhaps less emphasis placed on, um, the senior gen, what are

Russ Haworth: 00:14:19

some of the outcomes that you've perhaps seen as a result of that?

Dennis Jaffe: 00:14:23

Well, um, I it's so and, um, I think there were two um, um,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:14:48

Talking and uh, we were the, the, and you know, doesn't wanna And so is for

Dennis Jaffe: 00:15:16

their the Which you know, them a and I something that, we, we, we, were um,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:16:00

their in that, basically, um, um, you know, At, what, you grew go the time

Dennis Jaffe: 00:16:34

that I to the And, it, and a And children are their your and do What does So we

Dennis Jaffe: 00:17:18

were We were need to be responsible, but And, and foundation, um, uh, uh,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:17:33

this paper that we, we've come up with

KenMcCracken: 00:17:35

Yeah, Russ, I'll, I'll throw in another couple of thoughts here.

KenMcCracken: 00:17:38

Um, I think it's established that the millennial generation have had

KenMcCracken: 00:17:42

a higher level of formal education than their predecessors, which

KenMcCracken: 00:17:46

has been advanced by the of next generation programs and courses that

KenMcCracken: 00:17:52

are available, which is a good thing.

KenMcCracken: 00:17:54

But on that basis, there must be the most ready generation that there has ever

KenMcCracken: 00:17:58

existed in the family business history.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:01

Um, so a adding more to their knowledge.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:05

Good.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:05

But are we significantly moving the dial in terms of affecting transitions?

KenMcCracken: 00:18:12

I mean you start, start looking at the broader demographic

KenMcCracken: 00:18:14

realities of these families.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:15

You know, people move in and out of relationships more

KenMcCracken: 00:18:18

than they did historically.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:20

They are blended families.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:22

There are families in which they could be a effectively a generation

KenMcCracken: 00:18:26

between people that would refer to themselves as siblings.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:30

So the old sort of idea of succession or transitions involving the senior and

KenMcCracken: 00:18:37

the next generation is just obsolete.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:40

And it is much more complex and much more interesting.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:43

And in the paper we're just trying to say, let's get to grips with

KenMcCracken: 00:18:46

some of these things and not just say, let's send the next gen on

KenMcCracken: 00:18:49

another course that is helpful.

KenMcCracken: 00:18:52

But there is much more to be discussed and we need to do that with a degree

KenMcCracken: 00:18:56

of rigor that maybe has been somewhat

Russ Haworth: 00:19:02

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:02

And, and taking both of those points and, and looking at, uh, a very public

Russ Haworth: 00:19:07

example, very recent public example of both the longevity element and the,

Russ Haworth: 00:19:13

the blended, um, kind of, um, families.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:16

I, I kind of help but think of the, the royal family in terms of the,

Russ Haworth: 00:19:20

the queen's recent passing and, you know, prince King Charles as he is

Russ Haworth: 00:19:24

now, um, was effectively arising Jen.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:28

uh at the, the age of 73.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:29

And then if you e extrapolate out that, that life expectancy again, then

Russ Haworth: 00:19:34

William's gonna be into his seventies before he's looking at, um his time.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:39

And I guess that's a, a useful public example of what you are

Russ Haworth: 00:19:43

seeing amongst family businesses.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:45

I mean, the royal family is, I think of a family business of, of sorts.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:49

So is that a useful kind of, uh, real life example of the, some of topics

Russ Haworth: 00:19:55

that you've been exploring in the paper?

Dennis Jaffe: 00:19:57

Well, we were, mean, looking at, looking at, at, at a lot passed, um,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:20:05

we would to Prince Charles as saying, look at um, through his uh, prime um, to,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:20:14

um, you know, a position And, um, and, and the, the, Prince of being between

Dennis Jaffe: 00:20:28

the two and, the role, but uh, be taken.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:20:39

And, and there are many paths.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:20:42

the Harry and what life very um, um, and, um, and, uh, um, Um, they

Dennis Jaffe: 00:21:08

have wither, and, and, you know,

KenMcCracken: 00:21:16

But on that too, Dennis, the next generation have to consider

KenMcCracken: 00:21:20

the needs of the senior generation, which as you correctly pointed out,

KenMcCracken: 00:21:25

are experiences that have never arisen at any time in human history

KenMcCracken: 00:21:29

because people are living longer.

KenMcCracken: 00:21:31

So given that the only workable transition plan will be one that

KenMcCracken: 00:21:35

works for we have a vested interest, if you want to put it that way.

KenMcCracken: 00:21:40

Or we have an altruistic concern, if you want to put it that way, for the

KenMcCracken: 00:21:46

needs of others, not just promoting our own individual aspirations, dreams,

KenMcCracken: 00:21:52

or whatever you want to call them.

KenMcCracken: 00:21:54

And I think that's something that we talked a lot about and kind of

KenMcCracken: 00:21:57

appears in the paper that broadening.

KenMcCracken: 00:22:00

The discussion that way and not, not looking upon it as well.

KenMcCracken: 00:22:05

I have my individual aspirations, then I have my duties.

KenMcCracken: 00:22:08

No, you have your individual aspirations, then you have a humane

KenMcCracken: 00:22:11

concern for the people you love.

KenMcCracken: 00:22:13

So we're trying to figure out how we can elevate that conversation and hopefully

KenMcCracken: 00:22:17

in doing so that leads to more creativity.

KenMcCracken: 00:22:19

Two,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:22:20

and the old jet, the this is a completely situation.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:22:25

So a um,

KenMcCracken: 00:22:32

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:34

and, and Stacy, in terms of, uh, again, you covered this within the,

Russ Haworth: 00:22:39

uh, white paper, but the, the key areas, there's obviously lots of moving parts

Russ Haworth: 00:22:45

with, with a transition, but what are some of the key areas that families really

Russ Haworth: 00:22:49

need to gain clarity on sort of before and during those transition processes?

Stacy Allred: 00:22:56

So Russ, at a really kinda high level, we're looking at

Stacy Allred: 00:23:00

strategy and to really simplify strategy.

Stacy Allred: 00:23:03

It's looking at where are we now, where, what can we do, what should we do, what

Stacy Allred: 00:23:09

will we do and how will we get there?

Stacy Allred: 00:23:12

And the thing that really holds transitions back in our experience is

Stacy Allred: 00:23:18

it from the viewpoint of the senior leader is not having a really clear

Stacy Allred: 00:23:23

North star on purpose their why and what that vibrant next chapter looks.

Stacy Allred: 00:23:30

And so, you know, and this is kind of woven throughout the, the

Stacy Allred: 00:23:35

paper, but through that process really getting clarity, there's the

Stacy Allred: 00:23:39

saying that you can get through any how, if you're clear on the why.

Stacy Allred: 00:23:43

And one question that I like to ask that, you know, just kind of, uh, simplifies

Stacy Allred: 00:23:50

and cuts through is to ask the senior leader, if you had gone through your

Stacy Allred: 00:23:55

transition right from the, the company and you were sitting at lunch with a

Stacy Allred: 00:24:01

good friend and the good friend asks you, how was the transition, what would

Stacy Allred: 00:24:05

you like to be able to res respond?

Stacy Allred: 00:24:09

And then also to look at it from the lens of different family members.

Stacy Allred: 00:24:13

If your spouse or partner was at lunch with a good friend and they asked you

Stacy Allred: 00:24:18

how was the transition, what would you like for them to be able to respond?

Stacy Allred: 00:24:23

And the same for the rising gen.

Stacy Allred: 00:24:26

So what that does is it gets you up to kind of.

Stacy Allred: 00:24:29

appreciating the system's nature of this, the impact that it has on the entire

Stacy Allred: 00:24:34

system, and starting to explore how do you bring the best version of yourself to

Stacy Allred: 00:24:41

the process to engage in something that is really hard and meaningful and important,

Stacy Allred: 00:24:47

and this real moment that matters.

Stacy Allred: 00:24:50

And so we just suggest before getting into like all of the detail, take

Stacy Allred: 00:24:55

that time to really figure out that North Star and in particular, do not

Stacy Allred: 00:25:00

discount the value of having a, you know, a plan for that vibrant next

Stacy Allred: 00:25:06

chapter as part of that overall process.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:11

A and that can be quite a, it's quite a straightforward question,

Russ Haworth: 00:25:15

but it's quite a complicated thought process for people to go through if it's

Russ Haworth: 00:25:19

not something they're used to doing.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:21

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:21

If, if it's something where their um, identity, what they do, it has

Russ Haworth: 00:25:26

been laid out for, for 40 years, for example, to then to be asked to

Russ Haworth: 00:25:32

sit down and go through that, that question of what you would like this

Russ Haworth: 00:25:35

to look like, take some thought.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:37

It's not a kind of a tick box.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:38

Is, is that right?

Stacy Allred: 00:25:40

yes.

Stacy Allred: 00:25:41

You wanna build in time for plenty of diffuse thinking for, and that's

Stacy Allred: 00:25:47

one of the things, this is getting into another topic, but when

Stacy Allred: 00:25:50

transitions go well versus, you know, kind of the, the, the chaos.

Stacy Allred: 00:25:54

It's that you've left that time, you've really honored the process and you've

Stacy Allred: 00:25:58

done the deeper work and deeper thinking and having a guide, uh, you know,

Stacy Allred: 00:26:03

some supporters, some cheerleaders, some thinking partners along that

Stacy Allred: 00:26:07

journey can be incredibly helpful.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:12

And, and it brings me onto another topic that you mentioned in the,

Russ Haworth: 00:26:17

um, paper around self-reflection and, and perhaps a bit of time looking in the

Russ Haworth: 00:26:23

mirror and understanding, um, yourself.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:26

How would you describe the importance of self-reflection as,

Russ Haworth: 00:26:30

as part of a transition process?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:33

Well, I mean, I, I think it builds off a lot of what

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:36

Stacy was just mentioning there.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:38

I think that that sense of clarity is often coming from of self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:44

and, and self-reflection in all facets of life is very powerful.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:48

That introspection.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:50

I mean, it can be equally objective and subjective, um, but really what

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:26:55

it's looking to do is create that self-awareness on your thoughts,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:00

your attitudes, your behaviors, um, and that's not just to help

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:04

understand the impact it has on you, but the impact that it has on others.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:09

So knowing when and how to let go can be a very difficult point, and for a

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:15

lot of senior family members to engage in the process of letting go, this

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:21

self-reflection is vital to generate that.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:25

Personal motivation.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:26

Um, there needs to be that belief that it's the right thing to do.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:30

Um, and to the earlier conversation, is that the right thing to do for

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:35

me, the individual, or is that the right thing to do for us as a system?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:40

And so by looking at those individual and collective benefits, I think that's where

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:46

we're seeing self-reflection play a role.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:49

Um, and I think my last point on that as well is it's a skill.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:53

It's something that needs to be practiced.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:55

It's not something that comes naturally to everyone.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:27:59

so it's not to say that it's something you can just switch on, but something that

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:28:04

you need to focus and, and work hard at.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:07

I I, I'd like to add something to that if I could.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:09

Russ, uh, which is an element of judgment and criticism in, in that process, and I'm

KenMcCracken: 00:28:16

going to call an aid 300 year old Scotsman called Adam Smith, born 1723, famous

KenMcCracken: 00:28:23

for the Wealth of Nations, but Smith.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:25

You know, lots of good ideas that are not new ideas.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:29

And he created this idea of an impartial spectator, somebody that we can create

KenMcCracken: 00:28:33

in our imagination is endowed with characteristics that we want to have.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:38

So to, to Stacy's point, no, that person looks like the person we would

KenMcCracken: 00:28:42

like to become, but that, that doesn't just sort of float off into the ether.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:46

That is a person who's praised you seek and whose criticism you dread.

KenMcCracken: 00:28:51

when you're going through the hard work doing the transition, person should

KenMcCracken: 00:28:56

be sat in your shoulders praising what you do well and reminding you of the

KenMcCracken: 00:29:00

things that are not going so well.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:02

So the self-reflection is, um, to me, it's about I want to become

KenMcCracken: 00:29:08

and making that tangible and vivid enough to actually start influencing

KenMcCracken: 00:29:14

the behaviors and how you act now.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:16

And if other people.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:18

I are aware of that they can help by keeping you in lane when you stray

KenMcCracken: 00:29:23

and giving you congratulations when you succeed in becoming that person.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:30

I think in, in a group, if we're all trying to do that,

KenMcCracken: 00:29:35

well that's quite powerful.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:37

I think it must be very challenging.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:38

Well, I know it's very challenging cause I do this with clients, so I, I I know

KenMcCracken: 00:29:41

it's really, really hard and when the person, someone would like to become is

KenMcCracken: 00:29:47

not something that someone else likes and they go, oh, I didn't see that coming.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:52

I thought, for example, the next gen.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:54

So I thought you'd be around for another 10 years.

KenMcCracken: 00:29:57

And the senior just said, well actually I was aiming to be out of here in 24 months.

KenMcCracken: 00:30:03

uh, I'm doing lots of other things that would be meaningful to me to

KenMcCracken: 00:30:06

give purpose to the rest of my life.

KenMcCracken: 00:30:08

So, but that conversation, it just shoots forward when you.

KenMcCracken: 00:30:13

Use that technique of G getting beyond are now in imagining what you would

KenMcCracken: 00:30:18

like to become, and then using that as a, a very, very practical benchmark.

KenMcCracken: 00:30:23

not woowoo this stuff.

KenMcCracken: 00:30:24

This is putting stuff out there that says you use this and you will

KenMcCracken: 00:30:27

move forward, and if you don't, you will be judged and held to account.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:33

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:33

And to, to help with that.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:35

If, if, if people are listening and that's resonating, but they're kind of,

Russ Haworth: 00:30:38

they don't really know where to start.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:40

There, there's some questions that you outline in the, the white paper

Russ Haworth: 00:30:43

to kind of, uh, encourage and, and to support that self, um, reflection.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:50

Um, Daniel, perhaps you could kind of run us through those, um, questions,

Russ Haworth: 00:30:54

um, for, for the benefit of those that won't have read the paper yet.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:30:59

That was, that was definitely a theme of the paper.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:01

I think as, as people work through it, you'll see that we tried at each point

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:06

to make sure that we did bring some quite tangible actions to this and, and ways

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:11

to bring, as Ken said, a lot of what, what we're seeing in practice, um, to

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:16

life for those that are dealing with it.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:18

So, I mean, some of those questions build off that idea of, well, what does

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:23

the next stage of my life look like?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:25

Painting that picture of the desired future state.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:29

Uh, it talks about I even interested in opening a new chapter?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:34

Again, to, to Ken's last point, what I want may be very different

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:40

to, to what others are expecting me to want or even wanting me to want.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:44

And so how do I understand my continuing role within the business?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:49

Um, that idea of binary succession, I know we'll touch on it later on today,

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:31:55

but that idea of I'm either in or I'm out, I'm either in charge or I'm nobody.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:00

Um, how do we move away from that as a, an assumption or a myth?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:06

and then how can I apply my knowledge and experience in other areas

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:09

outside of the family business?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:12

Uh, we're seeing this in the rise of family offices.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:15

Uh, we're seeing families build concurrent wealth outside their business and even

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:21

looking outside of that, involved in local community mentoring, uh, even

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:27

politics, finding ways to continue that.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:31

Um, as Dennis mentioned, that bonus.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:34

And so these are just a, a few of the questions, um, that we've posed.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:39

I mean, one that sticks with me the most, which I've, I've had some

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:42

great conversations with families around was, well, okay, what needs

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:46

to be true in order for me to be ready to transition the business?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:51

And, and what are some of the either correct or incorrect assumptions that

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:32:56

are being made about the business needs to be at a certain level or

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:33:01

the, the succession, um, and the next generation need to have a certain

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:33:04

level of experience or qualifications.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:33:06

So starting to, to benchmark some of those through this self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:33:11

process, um, that was really the goal of some of these open questions

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:33:16

to, to try and bring that out.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:19

and I guess the, a blessing and a curse in, in terms.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:23

Particularly when we're talking about sort of family owned businesses is if,

Russ Haworth: 00:33:27

if you're working in a public sector that has a retirement age of 65 and you've

Russ Haworth: 00:33:31

got your red circle around the date in the calendar of your last day, you get

Russ Haworth: 00:33:35

your carriage clock and off you go.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:38

That that's a very definitive date to be able to go.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:41

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:41

This is when I, I need to, it doesn't necessarily make the transition

Russ Haworth: 00:33:44

afterwards become easier, but it's much kind of more clear cut.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:49

I guess the blessing and a curse in terms of the family business

Russ Haworth: 00:33:53

side of things is that it's more kind of spread out than that.

Russ Haworth: 00:33:56

It's not a date necessarily ringed around the, the calendar and the,

Russ Haworth: 00:34:00

the process can take time and we're talking about the effort that's

Russ Haworth: 00:34:06

involved in, in doing this as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:08

What are some of your thoughts in terms of sort of beginning this process and.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:14

Uh there's a, a Chinese proverb.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:15

I think the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:18

Uh the next best time is now is, is the same true of transition planning.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:24

Oh, definitely.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:25

I think we, we see that with that.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:27

Whole concept of, of constant communication.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:30

I mean the, the role of self-reflection can be then, um, repurposed across

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:37

the entire group where you've got that collective reflection.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:40

I mean, Stacy mentioned that idea of, of having that, why having that North

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:45

star, um, because as you mentioned, I mean, the average tenure of a family

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:51

business CEO six, seven times that of a, a non-family business ceo.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:34:57

And so having less.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:00

Fixed information leads to potentially more assumptions.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:04

And so that idea of, of starting this process early, um, we saw

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:10

that even within the paper, we looked at this idea of regret.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:14

Um, and obviously if you commence your reflection at the end of your

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:18

journey, the ability to influence or change that is, is more limited.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:23

And so part of what we uncovered here was that this self-reflection

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:28

piece is not something to complete at the end of any stage.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:32

It's something that should be constant because having that more optimistic

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:37

lens to it says, well, I can reflect on.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:41

Missed opportunities or missed chances, and I can write those.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:45

And so I think it, it really hits to your point there, which is the earlier

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:50

that we can start these conversations, that we can build this process.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:54

Um, it comes to point, won't steal the thunder now, but around why we

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:35:59

don't call it succession planning.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:36:01

Um, because we are looking at continuity, we are looking at longevity.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:36:06

So I think that idea of, of starting early is, is a good one and, and something

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:36:12

that a lot of families are starting to become, I think in my experience, a

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:36:15

lot more proactive than historically.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:36:18

Um, we may have been.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:21

Could I, could I add some, add something to that Ross?

Russ Haworth: 00:36:24

please.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:24

Yeah.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:25

in response to your question, why not set a date ? Um, and but

KenMcCracken: 00:36:31

set a date in the context of the reality of the demographics of your family.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:36

Mm-hmm.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:37

Now, you know, if you're of an age where retirement is front of

KenMcCracken: 00:36:41

mind, they've, um, the possibility of that

Russ Haworth: 00:36:47

I have.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:48

might be affected by the age of the next generation.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:50

If they're 1920, they might not be ready to make a commitment to a long

KenMcCracken: 00:36:54

time career in the family business.

KenMcCracken: 00:36:56

But if you're sitting at 60, 70, 80 years old in the next generation, or

KenMcCracken: 00:37:00

40 50, do you have a duty to them to start moving the dial because of their.

KenMcCracken: 00:37:08

It's not necessarily just about what you want, it's about what

KenMcCracken: 00:37:11

they need and what they want.

KenMcCracken: 00:37:13

So, um, the setting of a date, I think being a prac, a practitioner

KenMcCracken: 00:37:19

at heart is quite a good idea.

KenMcCracken: 00:37:22

But you have that is relevant to the reality of the

KenMcCracken: 00:37:26

demographics of your family.

KenMcCracken: 00:37:28

And I think, as I said earlier, as those become more complex and people have

KenMcCracken: 00:37:31

blended families and kids at different ages and stages of life, that's not just

KenMcCracken: 00:37:35

as straightforward as we might think.

KenMcCracken: 00:37:38

So yeah, we're thinking about.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:37:56

do succession planning, we wanna but our And, and them understand

Dennis Jaffe: 00:38:05

is that, let not you to than of the I you restrictions on the wealth, um, uh, I,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:38:33

think of elder that that said and I If your And he new And I began to say, well,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:38:56

to do about it him stop them them that so, he have um, the they're we observe, I And

Dennis Jaffe: 00:39:35

it's the, but uh, a crisis right always of actually um, make a little it, it's,

KenMcCracken: 00:39:58

yeah.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:39:59

face

KenMcCracken: 00:40:01

And also help the other generations in that discussion

KenMcCracken: 00:40:04

to understand anxiety exists.

KenMcCracken: 00:40:08

It's not just the seniors generation to fix that in their own head or heart.

KenMcCracken: 00:40:13

They are part of this network of relationships.

KenMcCracken: 00:40:15

So to figure out how we collectively can help them to address their needs come

KenMcCracken: 00:40:22

up with something that is a workable.

KenMcCracken: 00:40:25

I think just everyone dealing with their own stuff in isolation of each other

KenMcCracken: 00:40:28

just doesn't, well, my experience doesn't really get the thing moving, uh, it's

KenMcCracken: 00:40:34

very, very important for what you say.

KenMcCracken: 00:40:36

But I think the next gen, if you could use that phrase, should have a

KenMcCracken: 00:40:39

significant interest in how their seniors are coping and do their best to help.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:40:47

a um, thing that that comes is, is the, the to

Dennis Jaffe: 00:40:57

see them as, uh, significance.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:41:00

And is they're, they're being nice and they're getting a anything.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:41:07

And doesn't get say, and I asked him, why 40 years get together playing?

Dennis Jaffe: 00:41:17

He said, well, and I it's order to, and they're saying, yes, he'll

Dennis Jaffe: 00:41:32

be know, you we're what, that make generation is, um, and could be doing

Dennis Jaffe: 00:41:58

because of this, this desire not

Russ Haworth: 00:42:05

Yeah, it's a, it's a great point.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:07

And, and I want to, to go back if we can, just to the topic of regret.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:12

Cause it's something that is, uh, it, something I'm passionate

Russ Haworth: 00:42:16

about, I passionately believe is that life is not rehearsal.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:19

We are here once and we get this shot life once, and we're all

Russ Haworth: 00:42:23

kind of making up as we go longer.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:24

It's the first time we've ever done anything really in, in, in that sense.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:28

But, but in terms of the linking that with the longevity issue that

Russ Haworth: 00:42:34

we, we spoke about earlier is not only are we living longer, we are

Russ Haworth: 00:42:37

living more vital healthy lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:40

Which again, I think creates the potential to, um bust the myth that retirement has

Russ Haworth: 00:42:47

to be this kind of sedentary experience of sitting in a rocking chair with a pipe.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:51

It can be a very.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:52

active and very, um, uh, kind of empowering phase in our lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:42:58

And I think linking that back to the, the, um, sort of wanting to avoid

Russ Haworth: 00:43:03

regret, uh, I dunno if you're familiar with the work of Bronny Ware, who was

Russ Haworth: 00:43:07

a palliative care nurse who researched with the patients that she was working

Russ Haworth: 00:43:13

with, the top five regrets of the dying.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:16

Um again, I can link that up in, in the show notes, but the, the results from that

Russ Haworth: 00:43:20

were, you know nobody said, I wish I'd spent more time at work a as passionate

Russ Haworth: 00:43:24

as they might have been about that.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:25

It was, I wish I'd live a life that was true to myself.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:28

Which again, speaks to that, um, element of self-reflection and

Russ Haworth: 00:43:32

understanding who it is we really are and what we can really be.

Russ Haworth: 00:43:35

And the, the kind of that phase of our lives can be a really

Russ Haworth: 00:43:38

exciting point to embrace that.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:43:46

I, I think that ties to even, um, Sarah Lawrence

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:43:50

Light foot's kind of definition of the third chapter, and, and developing

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:43:55

that compelling vision of the future.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:43:58

Um, and that, to your point, is a vision of and growth as opposed to Um, I think

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:06

back to the, the recent FFI conference, um, where one of the speakers was

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:11

talking about, uh, aging is a mindset, it was that whole idea of, well, how

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:17

do we actually bring a positive and progressive and, and growth mindset to

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:24

what, what she called that third chapter?

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:26

But I guess what we are talking about is that life post.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:31

, um, 75, 80 post CEO leader of the business, and to say, well, how do we

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:39

actually avoid some of that regret, um, by taking advantage of what we're

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:45

seeing, which is, like you said, living longer, and having more opportunity.

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:50

And so I think bringing that into the conversation and, and channeling

Daniel Trimarchi: 00:44:54

that with purpose, um, is, is what is producing the best results.

Russ Haworth: 00:45:02

One.

Russ Haworth: 00:45:02

One of the.

Russ Haworth: 00:45:03

Kind of common challenges that, uh, I guess we all face in, in

Russ Haworth: 00:45:07

the work that we do is the the fear of loss that people feel.

Russ Haworth: 00:45:11

You mentioned, Dennis, the anxiety around the future, and I think part of

Russ Haworth: 00:45:14

that is founded in this fear of loss.

Russ Haworth: 00:45:18

H how important do you feel it is to kind of face up to that

Russ Haworth: 00:45:22

fear as, as part of a transition?

Dennis Jaffe: 00:45:25

Well, that's so I that next Um, will be, I have years and lose my,

Dennis Jaffe: 00:45:54

role in the And so create next chapters.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:45:59

I think uh, Daniel of the things that people can do.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:03

Well, leader.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:06

one that retirement age at 60 the been going And I of the

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:21

and um, I said, well, gee.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:22

And he said, I retired at 60.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:25

um, it's, gee, , what have you been doing for 30 years?

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:30

And he said, well, 60, there's a in we, and um, we're and we crappy

Dennis Jaffe: 00:46:56

jobs, um, that committee and things congressman he retired from leading the

Dennis Jaffe: 00:47:15

And I think um, I Retire and about it.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:47:27

Um, and, to you have the midlife activity.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:47:39

It's when you like in your, you wanna so to business is, is to the your If

Dennis Jaffe: 00:48:10

you've done have to why have to And, um, running the be saying a you wanna

Dennis Jaffe: 00:48:41

you're uh, respectful your family.

KenMcCracken: 00:48:49

think, and I just asked a couple of brief comments there, um,

KenMcCracken: 00:48:52

without repeating it, I hope without repeating anything, I think on the

KenMcCracken: 00:48:57

point of regrets, I think sometimes you have to come to terms with them.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:02

I mean, if you regret not doing something is because you devoted

KenMcCracken: 00:49:05

all, all your waking hours to building your family's business.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:09

There's not all of those that can be now revisited.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:14

These are absences in your life caused by choices you made, and

KenMcCracken: 00:49:18

you need to come to terms by that.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:19

Sometimes the desire to kinda wind the clock back and do the things that

KenMcCracken: 00:49:25

you might have done in your forties, now that you're in your seventies,

KenMcCracken: 00:49:27

that gets really confusing and very So yeah, sometimes you have to acknowledge

KenMcCracken: 00:49:32

them and come to terms with them.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:33

I think also losses and fears are really lead in words.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:40

Oh, they just make you bristling, kind of bring you out in a sweat.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:44

I think we can maybe help that conversation by saying, look, if you

KenMcCracken: 00:49:49

feel so the, the, the i the examples given loss of identity and status

KenMcCracken: 00:49:54

and even loss of economic security.

KenMcCracken: 00:49:56

So if you're being asked to stand down from the family business,

KenMcCracken: 00:50:00

then what we need to discuss is how do we, uh, redefine these?

KenMcCracken: 00:50:08

Needs in your life to ensure that you will have status,

KenMcCracken: 00:50:12

identity, and economic security.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:14

You need to feel secure.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:16

Now, it might just not be doing what you've done today, but there

KenMcCracken: 00:50:19

could be other things in Dennis, you mentioned coaching or other

KenMcCracken: 00:50:23

organizations or whatever it is.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:26

And also making sure that you feel you have enough money to look after

KenMcCracken: 00:50:30

your needs as you age for longer than your predecessors will have done.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:35

So how, how do we deal with that?

KenMcCracken: 00:50:38

Um, rather than pumping up the kind of negative emotion of loss and fear is

KenMcCracken: 00:50:43

to say, let's be practical and figure out what we as a family and as an

KenMcCracken: 00:50:46

enterprise can do to address these things.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:48

Because that will help this process of transition to move forward by

KenMcCracken: 00:50:52

enabling that person normally one of significant power, uh, to move forward.

KenMcCracken: 00:50:57

And without that movement, we are really marking time, discussions perhaps,

KenMcCracken: 00:51:03

but not really getting anywhere.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:07

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:07

Thank you, andcan.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:10

Continuing on a point you were making earlier about.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:14

Importance of kind of understanding what we're each going through

Russ Haworth: 00:51:17

during these transitions.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:20

One thing that struck me throughout the conversation so far around

Russ Haworth: 00:51:23

transitions is we haven't spoken about, nor am I suggesting we do by

Russ Haworth: 00:51:27

the way, but we haven't spoken about any other kind of technical stuff.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:31

The, the potential shared transfers for different structures for the,

Russ Haworth: 00:51:35

the kind of what we've been talking about is much more around the

Russ Haworth: 00:51:39

emotional elements of transitions.

Russ Haworth: 00:51:43

Uh, and so I guess what role does empathy play in that?

Russ Haworth: 00:51:46

You, you touched on it earlier, but, but perhaps you could speak

Russ Haworth: 00:51:49

to that a bit more in terms of the role that empathy can play in, uh

Russ Haworth: 00:51:53

successful transaction, uh, transition.

KenMcCracken: 00:51:56

Yeah, I think the, um, I think also just for, come

KenMcCracken: 00:52:00

onto that, those are the topics about the quotes hard stuff.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:02

The share class is the tax plan.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:05

I think often they're a proxy for these discussions anyway.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:08

They're just being conducted under that, uh, kind of heading because those

KenMcCracken: 00:52:12

are the topics that people feel worth, uh, feel comfortable talking about.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:16

But when we're talking about the transfer of ownership, we're talking about

KenMcCracken: 00:52:19

the transfer of wealth and power and opportunity and status, et cetera as well.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:23

So yeah, we get into those topics no matter where, you know, where we start.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:28

to your point about empathy, um, or mu mutual sympathy, really feel as

KenMcCracken: 00:52:35

I problems come through some of my mates, we'd need to pump this up.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:40

There's a real theme of individualism in these, and you, you mentioned it at,

KenMcCracken: 00:52:45

at the very outset, I want this, and my idea as to what to get what I want is

KenMcCracken: 00:52:50

that you should do something about it.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:52

So all I've asked you to do is change, which probably means giving up something

KenMcCracken: 00:52:55

that you want to get what I want.

KenMcCracken: 00:52:57

I just feel that these conversations can very easily descend into acri

KenMcCracken: 00:53:01

in accusations of selfishness.

KenMcCracken: 00:53:03

So you can the argument or, or, or the discussion.

KenMcCracken: 00:53:08

And so to give a practical example, using something that you said earlier,

KenMcCracken: 00:53:11

Dennis, if the next gen can get together, don't they spend their time

KenMcCracken: 00:53:15

talking about what they think the seniors want and what they think they

KenMcCracken: 00:53:19

can do to help them get what they.

KenMcCracken: 00:53:22

And when the seniors sit down to talk to whoever they're going to

KenMcCracken: 00:53:25

have a chat with, they should be thinking about what, how, how well

KenMcCracken: 00:53:29

do I understand the next generation want and how they feel and knowledge

KenMcCracken: 00:53:35

can help her understanding of that.

KenMcCracken: 00:53:37

And there's lots of knowledge and of it's been mentioned in passing, its referenced

KenMcCracken: 00:53:41

in the white paper around what, what we are likely to feel we need at certain

KenMcCracken: 00:53:46

stages of life in our young adulthood in mid age and in our elder years.

KenMcCracken: 00:53:51

So we can use that knowledge to start understanding what the other people in

KenMcCracken: 00:53:57

this conversation are needing figuring out how we can help them get there.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:06

And uh, I think that helps the conversation, not just in a

KenMcCracken: 00:54:10

kind of compassionate sense, but in a very practical sense.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:16

Uh, we can all bring something to that conversation and we need

KenMcCracken: 00:54:21

everyone to bring something.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:22

You can't just say, well, that's up to you, chum.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:24

You make your mind up.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:25

I'll wait for you to make a decision.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:28

You, you've just stalled everything at that point.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:30

So for me, getting to that conversation with that degree of empathy or

KenMcCracken: 00:54:35

mutual sympathy for the interest of others, I think we start to really

KenMcCracken: 00:54:39

see the creativity coming through.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:43

and I'm not saying that everyone will come up with suggestions that other

KenMcCracken: 00:54:46

people want to hear, but as long as they're coming up with suggestions,

KenMcCracken: 00:54:49

we've got something to talk about.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:51

Um, so I think it's, uh, a powerful.

KenMcCracken: 00:54:57

Uh, reservoir to, that we can tap into for these, for these discussions.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:04

And I, I've, say that having tried to do it in practice, I've done this at

KenMcCracken: 00:55:08

conferences and got each generation to talk about the interests of the others.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:12

And it's astonishing what they come up with.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:14

And it's just amazing to feel that afterwards they're going to sit down

KenMcCracken: 00:55:18

with their own families and have a better appreciation of what other, those whom

KenMcCracken: 00:55:25

they love or respect or at least they're related to, going to want out of this.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:30

And that's really what succession transitions is ultimately

KenMcCracken: 00:55:34

going to have to deal with.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:36

And then you can express it in a tax plan or a shareholders

KenMcCracken: 00:55:39

agreement and all that good stuff.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:40

But until we really hit these other fundamentals with some, like that, infused

KenMcCracken: 00:55:47

with that sense of uh, for the others who are part of this, , I think we struggle.

KenMcCracken: 00:55:54

So I'd like to think that that in the white paper will help people to start

KenMcCracken: 00:55:58

approaching that with some imagination.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:56:03

thought is that's is Fear is To or they can resist

Dennis Jaffe: 00:56:30

getting together comfortable.

Dennis Jaffe: 00:56:33

Let's not, getting to and, and to understand our differences.

Stacy Allred: 00:56:46

Yep.

Stacy Allred: 00:56:47

And if I could quickly add to that, one of the things that was really

Stacy Allred: 00:56:50

important to the four of us as we created this paper was to include lots

Stacy Allred: 00:56:55

of practical things that you could do as a family to make a difference.

Stacy Allred: 00:56:59

So, um, along the lines of empathy with permission from, uh, David Gray,

Stacy Allred: 00:57:05

we included the Empathy map canvas, which is a really simple framework that

Stacy Allred: 00:57:11

makes this more practical and doable.

Stacy Allred: 00:57:13

And so, building on Ken's example, it might be the rising generation,

Stacy Allred: 00:57:19

putting themselves into the shoes of the senior generation and, and going

Stacy Allred: 00:57:22

through that empathy map canvas.

Stacy Allred: 00:57:24

Who are we emphasizing with?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:27

Who are we empathizing with?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:30

What do they need to do?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:32

What do they see?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:33

What do they.

Stacy Allred: 00:57:35

What do they do?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:36

What do they hear?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:38

And then what do they think and feel?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:39

What are the pains and what are the gains?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:42

And I think it's important to remember that, you know, business

Stacy Allred: 00:57:45

owners are typically doers, right?

Stacy Allred: 00:57:47

They're very busy, they're very active, they're used to

Stacy Allred: 00:57:50

doing and accomplishing a lot.

Stacy Allred: 00:57:52

And so to really slow the whole family system down and get into

Stacy Allred: 00:57:57

that more reflective space, uh, I keep coming back to the saying of

Stacy Allred: 00:58:03

you don't learn from experience.

Stacy Allred: 00:58:05

You learn from reflecting on experience.

Stacy Allred: 00:58:08

And so kind of that quiet, reflective time and some of these frameworks that

Stacy Allred: 00:58:12

allow us to get up on the balcony and take that reflective time are are important.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:18

Yeah, and, and if I could ask something there picking

KenMcCracken: 00:58:20

up in the points that being made, and then as you said, or some

KenMcCracken: 00:58:23

families, yeah, you're right.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:24

Some families find this really difficult.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:26

You don't have to talk to your own family about this.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:29

There.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:30

The needs of people at different stages of adulthood are well documented and.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:37

would be really great to think that NextGen programs could include

KenMcCracken: 00:58:42

imagining based on that knowledge, your senior generation are feeling

KenMcCracken: 00:58:48

and thinking and wanting, and to speak to other people of your generation so

KenMcCracken: 00:58:52

that they can add their thoughts and creativity to to aid your understanding.

KenMcCracken: 00:58:57

And in the room next door, the senior generation are doing exactly the same

KenMcCracken: 00:59:01

thing, talking to their peers about the need of next generation generally so that

KenMcCracken: 00:59:07

they can gain a better understanding.

KenMcCracken: 00:59:10

And maybe that would help start the conversation uh, yeah, it can be tough

KenMcCracken: 00:59:15

just to sort of descend into that type of conversation with your relatives, but you

KenMcCracken: 00:59:20

don't need to always just do it that way.

Russ Haworth: 00:59:23

Yeah, and I think we, uh, um, might all advocate as well

Russ Haworth: 00:59:27

that if it's not something that you can necessarily feel comfortable doing, uh

Russ Haworth: 00:59:31

off your own back to, to utilize, um, somebody to, who's able to facilitate

Russ Haworth: 00:59:36

that, who's able to help guide that as well because, um, it, it can be quite

Russ Haworth: 00:59:40

intimidating just to go right guys, we're gonna sit down and I've heard this

Russ Haworth: 00:59:44

podcast and so we're gonna sit in separate rooms and, um, talk about this stuff.

Russ Haworth: 00:59:48

It, it can be something that can be very beneficial to have facilitated.

KenMcCracken: 00:59:54

Yes, but let's not be, you know, we, we are,

KenMcCracken: 00:59:58

we are all practitioners here.

KenMcCracken: 00:59:59

So yeah, of course we're going to say that's a great idea, but, you know,

KenMcCracken: 01:00:04

DIY this a bit, you need to do more than any of us could ever do for you.

KenMcCracken: 01:00:10

And the idea is to give you the skills and knowledge to be able to understand these

KenMcCracken: 01:00:13

predicaments and figure out solutions.

KenMcCracken: 01:00:15

So I would encourage both you know, yeah, get good help.

KenMcCracken: 01:00:21

There's good ideas as including those in this white paper that I'm

KenMcCracken: 01:00:26

hoping will be of practical help to many families to get on with this.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:32

So that brings to a close part.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:35

One of this conversation.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:37

With Dennis, Ken, Daniel, and Stacy.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:40

Part two will be released.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:42

Very shortly where we continue the conversation and delve into the white

Russ Haworth: 01:00:47

paper that they have co authored.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:50

As a reminder, you can find this at.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:52

The ultra high net worth Institute.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:53

Institute website, which is U H N w institute.org.

Russ Haworth: 01:00:59

And we will provide a link in the show notes to.

Russ Haworth: 01:01:03

. So part two on its way and until then take care

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