A story that spans continents and the quiet ways a calling finds you. This conversation follows a woman whose prophetic dreams pulled her toward a work she never went looking for, and the cultural and spiritual mantle, the korowai, that parents hand to their children as the foundation for everything that follows.

At the table

Esther welcomes a guest whose obedience to a dream became a mission across cultures. They talk about the korowai as a symbol of love and inheritance, the courage it takes to act on something you cannot fully explain, and how faith turns a private conviction into work that serves other people.

What this conversation covers

• What a korowai represents, and why inheritance is spiritual before it is financial
• Acting on a calling when you are an outsider with no obvious platform
• The line between a fleeting idea and a conviction worth building your life around
• Serving communities and schools without waiting to feel qualified
• Passing a mantle of faith and purpose to the next generation

A line worth keeping

I am not well connected. I am not even from this country. Who am I to come in and say this is what needs to happen?

Mentioned in this episode

• The korowai, a woven cloak of honor and belonging
• The Broker's Table community, for women building faith, family, and lasting wealth

The Broker's Table is hosted by Esther Jackson-Stowell. New conversations on faith, family, and the kind of wealth that outlives you.

Welcome to the Berkwell Stable.

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Today's episode is called Dreams Wrapped in a Chorowai,

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of Love, a story that spans continents, cultures,

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and the mysterious ways divine inspiration connects us all.

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Today we explore the intertwined journeys of two women

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whose paths were woven together by dreams, destiny,

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and the sacred traditions of the Maori people.

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This is about prophetic dreams that transcend cultural boundaries

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about spiritual gifts, ancient scripture,

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and about how indigenous wisdom can illuminate the divine connection that bind us.

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Before we begin, across the world, people have treated dreams as windows

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into purpose from biblical Joseph and Daniel to Maori

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understandings of Guar-Ruwa,

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and ancestral guidance.

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Science adds that the most vivid dreams typically arise in REM sleep.

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A uniquely weak, like state, where emotion and memory processing run high.

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So, Kerry, your journey with prophetic dreams is remarkable.

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Can you share three dreams that help set things in motion for you?

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Yes, it was just an ordinary evening.

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I put my three children into bed,

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and I didn't realize that when I went to sleep that night

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that I would be called to do something by the following morning.

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So, my first dream was where I saw children, thousands of children,

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who were going hungry.

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In this dream, I had an insight into their lives

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and felt this like overwhelming love for them,

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like that of a mother for her children.

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And I really felt God's love for them

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and wished that they could know that I'd had this dream about them.

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So, in this dream, I was shown that they were suffering from hunger,

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and that permeated into everything else in their lives,

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because when you're hungry, you can't concentrate at school.

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When you're hungry, it affects your temper and emotions.

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It wasn't just that they were hungry, it was impacting everything.

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It had this knock on effect.

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But the thing that was probably the hardest thing in that first dream

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was the hopelessness that they felt, and I could feel it.

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And that is something that I really struggled with,

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because they didn't know it, but they were loved children of God.

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And when I woke up in the morning, I was like, okay, I was given this calling.

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The words of my dream said to feed the children,

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and so I knew that was a calling that was given to me.

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But then, as the days roll on by, the binamarm, three kids,

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and just getting on with things, I felt, who am I to even begin this.

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I'm not well connected, I'm not even from this country,

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and who am I to come in and say, this is what needs to happen.

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The doubts that's settling in. Yeah.

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So, I didn't doubt the dream, but I doubted my ability and why I was given that dream.

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It didn't make sense to me, and so I just put it on the shelf.

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But then, later, I had another dream, and in this dream, I saw the same children,

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the same faces, and they were still hungry.

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And I felt this like overwhelming guilt that I hadn't done anything, I hadn't started.

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And I watched as a team of people prepared food,

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and that then watched as this food was taken to the schools.

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And so, until that dream, I didn't realize that New Zealand didn't have a food and school system.

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I just assumed that every country had some sort of system.

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I'd send my kids to school with a sandwich box, but I didn't ever think about those kids

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that would be going hungry, because I just had this assumption until this dream.

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And so, in this dream, it was clear we need to take food into schools.

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And I made a promise to those children that I would find them,

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beat them, and serve them.

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And so, that was the second dream.

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And that was the time where I leaned over my husband Matt for about two hours.

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My friends awake up. I startled him.

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I'm there, and I blow my eyes out over him.

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And that's when I said, okay, I need to do this, because this is my second dream.

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And I saw the same kids.

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So, that's when things began in movement motion.

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It wasn't like official charity work, but I began delivering foods to schools on the shore

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and the high-riskers coast, just two families that need it.

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So, it might be like one or two families in that school that, for example, in one of the schools,

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there was a mum that was struggling with chemotherapy treatments.

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She had several children, and so would take food into her for free,

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late to the school for the children.

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And so, just alleviating those needs.

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I knew that I wasn't actually feeding the children that I'd seen in my dream.

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But when I looked back, those couple of years were good training ground,

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because it was like finding the right containers that don't leave you,

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or finding the right boxes to keep things warm.

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Just even timings, how long it takes to cook things and package things,

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and also like ordering the right amount of quantities, because that was okay.

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And I think those preparations helped lead the way to feed the need.

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But then it wasn't just a catastrophe when we began.

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During that time, I had a third dream, and in this third dream,

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I saw myself standing in a government building of New Zealand,

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and everyone was wearing really lovely posh clothing.

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And I remember asking in the dream, like, why am I here?

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And it was because of the work in feeding children going hungry.

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So, always throughout the years, I always believed that we were probably there

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because maybe we're going to share stories of what we saw on the ground,

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the impact it had on the children.

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I never thought it would be what it ended up being.

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But in that same dream, I saw this mari man,

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just stood by these brown doors, and he was holding keys.

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And he beckoned for me to come towards him,

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and in this dream, I walked towards him, and as I walked towards him,

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he used the keys to open this door.

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And it just for me to walk through the door, and as I did, I walked into this bright light.

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And that was the end of my dream.

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And so, I'm really good at guessing what my dreams mean, and I get it wrong.

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But I always thought, I wonder what light was, what was that bright light?

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It wasn't like a constant question.

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Why would we be in the government building?

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Who was that man?

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Why was he holding keys?

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Why was I to walk through that door into that bright light?

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And yeah, I just knew that one day I'd meet him.

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One day I'd meet the children from my dreams, and that it would all make sense.

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But with dreams, like lucid dreams, they are different to dreams where you might have a dinosaur chase in your head.

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Whatever.

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It's different, and lucid dreams are where you're aware you're dreaming.

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So it's kind of different.

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So people often ask, how do you know it was a dream that had a meaning?

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It was later on that I read up about lucid dreams and how they were different, and it all made sense.

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That, oh, okay.

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Yeah, it was lucid dreams because I was definitely aware that I was dreaming.

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I knew I was dreaming, but I was confident that one day I would meet their children and meet that modern man.

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So I have three follow-up questions.

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The first one is, you mentioned the dreams and how you were preparing for it.

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There's a lot of echo in that, in the scriptures, whether an angel shows up and then prepares someone for what they're actually going to deal with in life.

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Just as the angel showed up for Mary and let her know that this is what her job was going to be.

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And there are other things in the scriptures that shows for that.

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So I'm glad that you mentioned that because it shows that when you have those divine dreams or divine communication,

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that you're not just left to figure it out on your own, that God has a way of preparing you.

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Like you mentioned, so I want to know when you started off with the schools initially, what was it about those schools?

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How did you communicate with the people to know that these women, this woman needed a little bit of help because she was going through chemotherapy?

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Like, how did you come about with that?

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Yeah, so something that I've not written about or talked about is, I wondered how I could find the funds to feed those children from my dreams.

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So I ended up starting a catering company.

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Okay.

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And so we'd, we approached schools and we're bringing, and basically bringing in lunches to the schools, like, charged.

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We'd charge for them. And then the plan was that my income would go to the charitable meals.

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And so I wasn't planning to take an income. It was meant to go to the charitable meals.

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Yeah, that took a while for any sort of dollars. And it was very frustrating.

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We just kept having to borrow more and more money, which was difficult.

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But you asked about how we found out about the families who were in need in those schools.

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So we'd be taking those lunches to schools, parents would order online.

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And then we would develop a relationship to the school staff and just say,

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Hey, do you know of any families that could use these lunches and we can do it free of charge?

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And they always knew. I think the office staff are very aware of the needs in our school.

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Absolutely.

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And so they were like, every time they were like, yeah, we know over this family.

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There was always a two or three per school, two or three families that needed to help.

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And it might be just for a season. And so that, yeah, that was good preparation.

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I know that it was a couple of years just getting through that.

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And then eventually the catering company became a cafe in a business complex.

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And that's really when I was able to put my income into it.

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Still very limited.

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It really was. But just I was able to make a start once we got into the cafe.

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This is because if that makes sense. Yeah.

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And I would also like to point out that your husband, I love that he trusted you when you cried over him and said,

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Hey, there's something I need to tell you. And I, you know, this is, and I love that he trusted you and was able to

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follow through with what your dream was because that's the support that we all need where you have a very specific dream.

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And to be able to follow through on that. Matt, we thank you for being just supportive and just an amazing husband on that end.

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First of all, I love what you've done with that and your desire to follow through and not ignore something so important.

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And recently I gave this presentation where we talked about callings and being able to accept your calling and then persevere to the end.

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And the perseverance side is very hard sometimes because sometimes I tell people that you know what, I just want to take a nap for a moment.

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I just want to nap for a moment with this perseverance, but and get back up and do it.

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So I am absolutely grateful that you were called to do this.

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You accepted that call and you're still persevering through all the wonderful things that you're doing.

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So thank you for that, Carrie.

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Which details made the first and second dream feel like an assignment rather than a passing image, looking back worded faith, community and logistics meet.

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I feel like in the first dream when I was told to feed the children, I knew that was the invite to the calling.

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The Divine Calling.

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And then the second dream was like giving me that nudge.

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Yeah.

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You had to do this. Even though you think you're too busy, you think that you're a nobody, you think you can't have an influence, you think you can't do this and that.

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It was that nudge to make me go, okay, this is a calling and it is, I meant to do something about it.

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And yeah, I think it was just like, okay, this is just what I've got to do.

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And so the community side of things, when I was doing those meals just dabbling basically into the charity work, I was becoming a little bit more confident with close friends and family telling them about my dreams.

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And so we had people that would, because in the middle of it we adopted our daughter and we just built the kitchen and so on.

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So we had people like step in and say, oh, look after your baby.

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Let me help with this and let me pick up your kids from school.

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So you talk about community that like was, this started at the very beginning.

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But then as things moved forward, David Falamati, the one who I eventually met, the Maori man that was in my dream that I eventually met in person, he said I want to introduce you to my daughter because her background, I think your line's really well with what.

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You're calling is.

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And when we actually, we spoke over the phone, but we realized that actually we had met each other in person several years earlier, when not long moved to New Zealand, and it was in a mother's room.

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And maybe Laurie can just quickly mention that.

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And then that kind of leads into the community side.

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Okay, so before we have Laurie, I want you to talk about reiterate that dream that you had with Laurie's father, just so that we can bring you into that.

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When she told me that dream, it was just a very just beautiful first of all.

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And I want the audience to be able to know because I think there are people out there that do have these vivid dreams and maybe they don't share it with people and maybe they don't talk about it because they're afraid that people won't understand.

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But I want Laurie, when you speak to be able to share your culture to let people know that this is very much a part of yours as is, it is for my culture as well.

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But to let people understand that these things are not just today, it's not just happening today, it's been happening in biblical times.

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And we're just very privy to it at this modern times.

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And your dreams, especially, they remind me so much of all the dreams, like we have Joseph, the dreamer in the scriptures and his ability to interpret dreams.

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And what's so fascinating to me is your connection with her father and how you both had the same dream from different perspectives.

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And to be able to confirm that is incredibly beautiful.

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So please tell us about that.

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So after that dream where I saw this Maruman, I didn't know who he was.

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I didn't know when or when the government building thing would ever happen.

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And so it was actually quite a while later, we were sat in a conference with my family.

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And I saw this same Maruman sat on the stand.

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And so I turned to Matt and I said, that's the man from my dream.

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And he was just usual.

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You better be sure.

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And there was somebody that I knew from behind because back then I didn't even have a mobile phone, but then literally I'm a mobile phone.

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And so I asked him.

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Here's her beautiful accent coming in.

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I was a mobile phone. I love it.

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Cell phone.

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It's okay. So your way.

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It just took me a minute for my brain to adjust what I love it.

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So I asked somebody if they knew his name and knew his phone and they did.

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Yeah, I thought, okay, I'm going to reach out to him.

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But then I got nervous.

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I doubt.

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How do I, yeah, how do I phone a man that I don't know and tell him that I've had a dream.

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That doesn't happen.

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And it could be a bit weird.

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So it took some time, but it was actually on our way.

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So in between that time we adopted our daughter and we were actually going to go and visit her biological family in Hamilton.

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And as we were driving down, we were actually listening to the beach boys eating brownies.

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And I went past this area and all of a sudden it was like the children from your dreams are here.

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Well, and I was just like person's tears.

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And my kids were wondering why I was crying and Matt was wondering why I was crying because we were just listening to the beach boys eating brown.

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And I said to my husband, where are we?

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And he said, South Auckland.

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I was like, okay.

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And it was like, okay, now I know where those children are from my dream.

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And that was like the push I needed, I think, to then have the courage to ring him.

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Because up until then I wasn't sure where.

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I didn't know where the children were from my dream.

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It was almost like I was doing my thing, walking in the dark and just waiting for that next bit of informational.

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Yeah, so it was like, okay, this is it.

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This is time I need to ring him.

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So after that weekend we drove home on a Sunday and I said to my husband, I'm going to go upstairs and ring this man.

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He was nervous for me.

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He was just like, you know what I'm like.

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This is Matt.

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Matt was nervous for you.

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Her husband was a nervous daughter.

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And so yeah, went upstairs and the daughter's number, my heart was pounding.

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And I said, oh hi, you don't know me.

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And he said, are you Pakeha?

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And I was like, yeah.

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And he was just like, okay.

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He said, are you blonde?

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I said, I have high lights.

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So for the sake of understanding, can you explain what Pakeha means?

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Yes, so white.

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Yeah.

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In Caucasian.

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Yeah.

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He said, I've been waiting for you, cool.

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Wow.

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And so I hadn't at this point told him anything.

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Or anyone outside of your family?

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Yeah, just a couple of close friends.

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Immediately I'm like, did he have a dream about me?

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Which again is not a normal thing, but that was the question.

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No, no, no conversation.

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Yeah.

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Hey, how's it going?

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Did you have a dream about me?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so almost like I was testing him and so he talked about his dream.

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So you asked him?

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I did.

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I did.

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So I hadn't told him my dream.

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I thought, okay, what did he dream?

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He dreamt that he saw this Pakeha woman.

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And he added that she was holding a baby and we had just adopted.

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That was cool.

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And then he said that he was told in his dream she's going to help our Tamariki.

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And I said, what does that mean?

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And he said, children.

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I was like, whoa, okay.

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And then he said, and it's going to help their Hyora.

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And I said, what does that mean?

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He said, well, being, I love you.

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And he asked the question, how is it a Pakeha going to help our Tamariki, our children?

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And he was told because she has a good heart.

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Oh, when he said that, I was just like, oh my goodness, that's beautiful.

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Yeah.

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And I thought, okay, maybe that's all that's needed.

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I don't need to be a professional.

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I think as people we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be a certain way.

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But all that was needed was just the heart.

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Yeah.

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That's actually all that was needed.

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And I think that was something that stood out in that conversation.

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And then he said that he'd seen himself standing in the government building.

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And that's when my brain just exploded.

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I was on a phone that was attached to the wall.

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And I literally was like walking around with this phone.

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And yeah, I'm worried that I might pull it out of the wall.

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But I was just like, oh my goodness.

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And then he said that he was holding some keys that he opened a door for me.

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Wow.

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And that I walked into this bright light.

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And that's when I knew, okay, this is big.

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Yes.

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These dreams that I've had, at least it's a dream that he's had.

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There's something bigger going on.

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This isn't my imagination.

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I'm not crazy.

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Like how did two people have the same dream?

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The same dream.

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So obviously the divine was playing a part in that.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So he actually came.

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He said, I think we need to meet.

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And so I said, yeah.

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And he came over with his beautiful wife.

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And I feel like that conversation was really good for Matt to be involved.

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Because he's like, finally she's not crazy.

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It's really a pretty good for Matt.

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Yeah.

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It was pretty good for him.

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And I think that kind of helped him go, okay.

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All right.

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Let's plug forward.

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But during that meeting, that's what he said.

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And I would just like to also give a shout out to Matt because Matt.

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Okay.

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Carrie being able to drain their bank account and put into this work.

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So confirmations are great for you, but it's also for Matt to know that.

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This is divine and it is worth following and that he can trust his Heavenly Father to know that you will be okay.

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You will all be okay.

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And I'm just thinking as the man of the house and the knowing that he's still responsible for your family to be able to say, you know what?

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Let's do it.

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Yeah.

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And know that you'll be okay.

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So a huge shout out to Matt.

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When you also speak the other biblical stories come to mind with, I think of Moses when he was told to go for his people.

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And he was like, who am I?

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I'm not capable of speaking in this thing.

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And so I hear you say, I'm not like, who am I?

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Yeah.

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And God is you are the right person because you have a good heart.

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And that is sometimes all it takes is just a good heart.

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And another phrase comes to mind where it says, God doesn't choose the qualified.

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He qualifies.

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Oh, God doesn't call the qualified.

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He qualifies you.

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And I'm probably saying that wrong.

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I think it's he equips you.

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Yeah, he equips you.

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He doesn't call you because you're perfect.

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He calls you because he wants to perfect you in the process.

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So our job is to be willing and open to accepting those calling and just trust and have faith that God will truly see you through.

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And I think of Jesus's disciples.

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They're like, we're fishermen.

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Like, and he has no come to me.

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I want you to be fishers of men.

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And there's just so many scriptural opportunities that we see in scriptural stories.

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There's so link to your willingness to say, who am I?

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But just I'll have faith that you'll walk with me and just follow.

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And that whole crew of mine, it doesn't just leave.

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It creeps in different stages.

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And I think it'll be something because I think that's just natural.

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It's natural.

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I think it's something that's a part of humility, right?

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Because if you walked around saying, yeah, I am that person, right?

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And I can do it all because God has told me I could do it all.

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Then you don't humble anymore.

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So that's okay to have that creep in.

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But as long as you always remember that Heavenly Father will always be there.

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And he will always correct.

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So now you've talked about the Maharima, right?

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Your father did.

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Lori, first of all, is visiting all the way from New Zealand.

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I am.

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And we're so glad to have you here.

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And I am so excited because it's my first time of meeting you.

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And the first thing that I did was gave her a little dance on the outside to let her know that she arrived.

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But there's just a very instant connection that I feel with you.

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And I see that as well.

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And so I'm excited to hear your father's story as he shared with you and just how it connected him to carry.

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So do share.

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Yeah.

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Dad and I were really close.

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We talked every day.

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And so obviously after he chaired it to Kiri, he called me.

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And it wasn't just the norm.

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He called me every day and just said, this parkier girl.

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This parkier blonde girl.

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I had a dream about her and she had his dream.

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And so for me, my dad has that spiritual gift of dreaming.

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I couldn't get away with anything.

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That's a teenager.

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You would dream about it.

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Even as a career, a careerless talk.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I'm like, oh no.

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But it is a real gift to have that.

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And it's something on an hour ancestry line that spiritual gift is.

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My sister has the same gift.

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And so I don't.

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And I'm really grateful for that because it's a big responsibility.

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But I'm grateful for how that has helped me and blessed me.

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He's shared many, many a dream about warnings and things that I need to be aware of.

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Even pull my husband and I in before we got married and we were dating.

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Come on, get on with it.

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So it wasn't unusual for him to share his dreams.

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And so he shared what he had seen with Kiri and said, I think you need to help her.

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Can you meet with her?

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She's got some big mahi or big work to do.

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Wow.

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And I said, yeah.

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I remember Kiri meeting here in the mother's room.

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And I did feel an instant connection with Kiri.

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So when you see a mother's room, tell our audience what a mother's room is.

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Yeah.

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It's wonderful.

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They call it here.

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It's probably still a mother's room.

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But is this church related?

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Mother's room?

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She was breastfeeded and had bags.

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And I was given a baby a bottle.

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So in our church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there's a room that's

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usually close to the bathroom for mothers to be able to nurse.

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While they're there, and usually there's a speaker in there that allows you to still hear what's happening in the chapel.

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So that's what they're referring to when they say mother's room.

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So you went in there to take care of your child.

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She was already there taking care of her child and you guys met.

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Yeah, we just chatted.

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And my background was as a nutritionist and working in across New Zealand and different Māori communities.

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Interesting.

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And helping just to share different practices around raising the whole door and health of the community.

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And so using the whole door or health, well being of a community through good nutrition.

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I love that you're speaking and you just have this connection with me that I'm like, I understand.

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I know.

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But I love it because I know it's important that I let our audience know that what it means.

430

Because I think it's beautiful. I can pick it up.

431

But I know it's beautiful and necessary for them to know what it is.

432

So if I pause you and interject, that's all that is.

433

Thank you.

434

Yeah, please do that.

435

Because I said, I'm going to have to think of the English and English words.

436

Because it's a natural thing.

437

Yeah, we met.

438

And I did recall here from the mother's room and he goes, I didn't know her.

439

And he saw Kari at the same conference.

440

He noticed her.

441

So it was meant to be.

442

And yeah, because of my background, I thought, yes, I probably can help.

443

And also, I'm one of eight children and dad was like a baker, a bricklayer initially.

444

And money was hard to come by.

445

And often I went to school without food.

446

And it really impacted my emotional wellbeing.

447

I really felt a lot of shame because of that.

448

And so I had experience that myself being in school without food and really had that willingness to help and be involved.

449

You understood it.

450

Yeah.

451

But also even in my work, working with these different communities,

452

I realized, oh my gosh, we can talk about good health and nutrition.

453

But actually, the most important thing is actually, can you afford food?

454

And it really came to my awareness that this is a widespread issue, food insecurity.

455

And it became one of my passions and my work to really advocate for that.

456

And like Kari, really purpose driven.

457

And I've never really thought, what career do I want to be in?

458

It's just been, I really feel like this is my path.

459

And I'll take this path and then see where it leads me.

460

And so I felt, I'll have a chat to her and felt a real connection and a real desire to help.

461

Yeah.

462

Oh, from your father's dream.

463

Yeah.

464

But also, when we met, she came over.

465

I was heavily pre-knit with my fourth.

466

I had three preschoolers.

467

Okay.

468

I didn't have a lot of spare time on my hands.

469

And she was a mother of young children as well.

470

But when I met her and she shared her dreams, I felt, again, those impressions, a real,

471

an instant need to help her.

472

Whatever I can do to help, I will help her.

473

But I made it really clear, I've got three little kids now about it.

474

And I have another one.

475

I can only do so much.

476

I'm not going to be hands on.

477

I'm just going to help you strategize and build a plan and all the rest of it.

478

So that changed.

479

Yeah.

480

Yeah.

481

So you wrote the book about those dreams.

482

And you told me the story about how you had her read to her father, had Laurie read to her father.

483

So I wanted just to make sure that my version of the dreams and what I saw and what he saw

484

and what we said that I had it right.

485

Yeah.

486

Because I think sometimes we can, over time, forget things and what.

487

And so I wanted to make sure that it was right.

488

Accurate.

489

And so I asked Laurie if she would read it to her dad.

490

Was it when he was in the hospital?

491

I can't remember.

492

I actually can't remember doing that.

493

But she came back and said, he said it was all correct.

494

And he added that he'd also recognize me in that same conference.

495

And up until Laurie read it out to him, I didn't know that.

496

I didn't realize that he'd actually recognize me.

497

So that was just really nice to learn that.

498

Because he did pass away.

499

It was a nice sort of last.

500

Confirmation.

501

Confirmation.

502

Yeah.

503

I just wanted to have you explain that moment and just sharing that confirmation.

504

Because like you said, there are doubts that creep in the way here and there.

505

And even it's that sometimes even if you absolutely believe it, those doubts would still come through.

506

So I love that you had that opportunity to give her another confirmation of just when he was sending

507

at the pulpit up on the stage that you, he recognized you.

508

Yeah.

509

In the crowd.

510

In the crowd.

511

And it just says you recognized him.

512

Yeah.

513

And I think that's just very powerful and just shows the divine in all of that.

514

Yeah.

515

And the work that you've, you ended up doing.

516

So this partnership ended up being this incredible thing that the New Zealand government ended

517

up implementing a whole food process for the schools in the school systems.

518

So tell me a little bit about that.

519

So basically we ended up doing a pilot and we did it in a cura.

520

Actually, this was before Feed the Need was actually established and Dave Varamati opened the door

521

for that.

522

And so we fumbled during that pilot.

523

It was very interesting.

524

But yet we saw miracles as well.

525

And there was, you talked about earlier community, there was like a whole team of volunteers.

526

And so that particular cura and that pilot, the thing that I remember the most was a miracle

527

to do with baked potatoes.

528

But also the principle of the school asked for the children, asked for us to attend the

529

school assembly and asked the children to come up and give us a hung.

530

And so we were in a line with some of the volunteers as well.

531

I'm going to pause right there.

532

Yeah.

533

Please explain to our audience what a hanger is.

534

And cura is school.

535

A hanger is school.

536

It's a school.

537

It's a school.

538

It means school but when you're saying cura it's a total immersion in the Māori language.

539

So it's, yeah, once you walk through the gates it's all in the Māori language.

540

Tiddell Māori.

541

Yeah, so that's where we went first and piloted because of our connections on my father's

542

connection.

543

And then the hanger is...

544

Shall we just become rest demonstrated?

545

Yes, please.

546

So you just touch noses and forehead and just lean into each other and she'll breathe.

547

That's a way of connecting with the other person.

548

So it's very much like when...

549

Very connected.

550

Yeah.

551

And it happens just in normal greetings, especially with males when they connect.

552

Yeah.

553

Yeah, I think that was, I'd never done that.

554

And so you line up and the kids lined up and they all gave you...

555

And they'd go to the people along the line.

556

Yeah, I...

557

It was such a special feeling.

558

And a special privilege I felt that day.

559

It was my first time experiencing it.

560

For you, obviously you'd have many of those.

561

Did you think it was special to have on that with the children?

562

For me it was...

563

I was crying.

564

Yeah.

565

When the children were performing.

566

Yes.

567

I felt the connection.

568

They were performing traditional songs.

569

Yeah.

570

And I felt this real love and connection with them.

571

Yeah.

572

Yeah.

573

Before we'd even served any food to them, we were all in emotional mess.

574

I think it also, like that feeling also confirmed the importance of this work.

575

Yeah.

576

Like every single one of those children were known to God and precious.

577

And we were having the privilege they trusted us to provide.

578

And the school, they were all so supportive.

579

Yeah, it was just a great experience.

580

We did fumble.

581

There was mistakes made.

582

Of course.

583

I think it's a lot of fun at this point.

584

Yeah.

585

When they were doing bite potatoes again.

586

Yeah.

587

But you know what?

588

It's the same word with the scriptures.

589

But took Moses some trials before he actually accomplished what he set aside to do.

590

So it isn't perfection, but it's perseverance.

591

Yeah.

592

Your willingness to persevere and fumble.

593

Yeah.

594

And finally get that done where the schools are now feeding those children.

595

And their well-being is truly being taken care of.

596

Like you mentioned, you know, when you didn't have food when you were a child and how it affected

597

you, like you know that those kids are not going to go to school and feel shame that they

598

haven't eaten or feel this need to act out because they're hungry and they are tired and

599

frustrated and don't know how else to behave.

600

So you, your work as alleviated those things that you felt and that you went through as well

601

so that they don't have to do that.

602

So then they can focus on school and what's important.

603

A lot of the focus is often like physical because you're filling their stomach hungry.

604

But actually you're trying to listen to someone when your stomach is growling or it's in pain.

605

It's important to have that physical nourishment.

606

But even more important, and this is from my own experience, is feeding that soul.

607

Nourishing this soul because I wish that I had that when I was growing up.

608

So I didn't have to experience that shame.

609

I shouldn't have experienced it because it wasn't my fault or even my parents' fault.

610

But it's just a natural part of being human and being different to everyone else at school who had

611

lunches.

612

But that was confirmed by a number of our young people that worked in the kitchen as we interviewed them.

613

I think every interview, most of them cried and I cried as well. Not untypical for me, but because they all experience the same thing, shame.

614

Feeling like their parents didn't love them enough to feed them.

615

And really it was just circumstances.

616

They understood that as they were older but still those feelings were so raw for them.

617

And also like some of those kids would take on that sort of...

618

So I remember just a letter saying that when my mum opens the fridge and cries, I know that we're going to go hungry that day.

619

And some of the kids would actually save some of their food and say, I'm going to take it home for my little sister.

620

And even I'm going to give some to my mum.

621

So I think that burden of food insecurity impacted the whole family.

622

And these kids were really sensitive to that.

623

So another thing I think that we learned was that it was actually not just feeling hungry pakus tummies, but actually knowing that people out there cared.

624

That was why I was the number one.

625

That's what I learned.

626

I was thought, okay, we need to feed them. We need to feed them.

627

But I think when we got the letters, the fact that we're caring, you must really care for us.

628

You must really love us.

629

Just stuff like that.

630

And so that was... Yeah, that was really interesting.

631

And we did focus groups in money to a South school, remember?

632

Yeah.

633

Focus groups, teachers and with students as well, just to get underneath what was it impact?

634

What impacts were they saying? That was the number one impact that both teachers saw and students felt that they expressed to us and it just confirmed that didn't it.

635

How important that was?

636

So they weren't alone. You know what I mean? Their sufferings were known.

637

And I think along this whole thing we talk about this book, I think really towards the end of writing the book, I really felt like they knew they weren't alone.

638

They knew that there were people out there that cared for them. Their needs were being met.

639

But they never really knew the dreams. They didn't know about Dodafaramati's dream. They didn't know about my dreams.

640

And I feel like they deserve to know because God knew them before I did.

641

Yes.

642

And so that's one of the things that I really hope that comes out of this book, that even if it's just one of the children that read it, they understood that they were not...

643

That their suffering was known to a loving, Heavenly Father. Who had a plan?

644

Absolutely.

645

Yeah, so.

646

That's absolutely beautiful. I think a lot of times when we are struggling with our own insecurities and things that are going on in our lives, there's a tendency to feel like you're alone in this.

647

Yeah.

648

But there's something beautiful to know that you're never alone.

649

Yeah.

650

And it's the same thing that I tell our kids. Like even if you, it seems that way and it physically seems that way because it's just you in that room and you're crying, you're never alone.

651

Like God is always with you. And I love when our Heavenly Father provides people like you and you.

652

That are willing to say, God used me as a vessel to do thy work on this earth.

653

And I think for me that's the prayer that I pray every day, is that He will use me as a vessel to do His work because I cannot do it alone.

654

I don't know.

655

Like you didn't know which where the children were.

656

Yeah.

657

But you felt it when you drove through that area.

658

And you met Kari a long time ago, but your dad helped you connect in a way that was just completely different and more spiritual.

659

Yeah.

660

And more meaningful. Right.

661

Yeah.

662

And where you, yes, you still had your children. You still had all your responsibilities. But all of a sudden, because there was a different drive and a different meaning to the help that you were providing her, you were able to carve out time.

663

She actually had an experience.

664

Yeah.

665

Just going to tell me.

666

Yeah.

667

Because I just think how us, your, her, Olin experience was that first dream.

668

And when she first came to me, that wasn't my Olin experience. It was like, okay, come and help her.

669

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

670

And just help strategize because I got my kids here and that's a priority as always. And then we met one night.

671

We're planning out how to, we're to secure the cada, the school to do our pilot.

672

And then we're planning out who can we have on the ground, who's going to come in and back to the school.

673

And then we had, Curie has had an amazing community around her, friends that just wanted to help. She just has that way of drawing people in.

674

And so I was really amazed.

675

Yes.

676

Like so many people helping out. And I thought I can play a little role. But I certainly didn't see myself being evolved operationally until the night that we met to figure out who would we invite to do that.

677

And as we had our little list of people, and we're going through the list. And then as we're going through the list, I felt this huge, like a baseball bat really, of spiritual confirmation.

678

And that moment that I was to be the one on the ground leading out in that space. And I Curie saw my, what was my reaction?

679

The reaction literally was like, that was her reaction. And I'm like, what just happened? What just happened there?

680

And so at the time I was running that cafe. And so we were going to use that cafe to prepare the meals and get them out. But I knew I couldn't be everywhere.

681

And so that was where we were going through like, how was this going to work? Like, I can get, prepare the food. We can get it packaged. We can get it in the boxes.

682

But will I be able to always go down to deliver? And just all those logistics? And she had this moment where she literally went and her eyes went wide.

683

Yeah. Yeah. And cried. And cried. And so in that moment I just felt basically I need to do that. But then I don't have the gift of dreaming and having visions.

684

But occasionally I've had some experiences, but it's not a common thing for me. But in that moment God showed me my path and how it had led to where I am sitting today and how that was an important part of my contribution and preparing me for feed the need. It was all for that.

685

So it showed me I was at university. I'd already done two years. I didn't like, I was doing like bio chemistry. And I was like, oh gosh, don't want to be in a kitchen for the rest of my life. And I was thinking, what can I do?

686

And my two friends were going to a different university. I was flicking through the prospectus. And then nutrition popped up. And I said to them, I'm going to do nutrition.

687

I'm coming with you guys to the South Island of New Zealand to study. And I always thought that was random. But actually what I was shown in that moment was that wasn't random.

688

I was 19 years old, had already done two years. It wasn't random. It was the spirit saying, this is what you need to do. And I was like, your path was being left in front of you.

689

Yeah, it had been. And so that was no coincidence. And then my first job, which I exposed me to so many different Māori communities and even propelled me into leading in a national indigenous role at only 24 years of age, which I did not feel prepared for.

690

But my mentor who was in the role said, you ought to, I'm retiring, you ought to fill my shoes. And I thought, I can't do that. I spoke to it literally every day for six months. What do I do in this situation? What did it?

691

But I was shown that how I was connected into that job. My mentor is preparing me for that role and supporting me and how that was all to lead to helping Curie and her work with Feed the Need.

692

So that was my all in. I thought, this is my purpose right now. And that's all I needed. Although I cried all the way at home and called my husband. I called him and he said to me, and he was in between jobs. And it was the bottom of the economy back then. And he couldn't find work.

693

And whilst I called him to cry to him to tell him what was doing, how am I going to do it with three little kids?

694

He said, I think you need to find a job. I think you need to go out to find a work. I said, I can't. I've got other work to do. We need to figure it out another way.

695

And it wasn't easy. The next week, our next door neighbor came over and said, you do training. I can get you into a job next week. Heavenly Father tests you.

696

And he really did bless us. But it was required a lot of faith and perseverance. But just a commitment.

697

Like when I know my kids always says to me, like, Mum, if Heavenly Father told you to divorce Dad, would you do it?

698

Like testing me and asking me questions was I know that I just can't not do it no matter how hard it is.

699

And I think that's why it worked. Yeah. Because we both just had this. We've had our moment. We've had the conviction that this is what we're meant to be doing.

700

And it's not going to be easy. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to have the light persevere. But we're both in for the long haul. Whatever it takes. However long it takes.

701

Yes, perseverance. That's what I tell you guys. Sometimes I just want to take a nap. I want to take a nap in the middle of perseverance.

702

That's fun. Just get out and get out and keep going. It's going to take the easy part.

703

Yeah. So yeah, we ended up taking on more schools. And then the Salvation Army actually let us build a big commercial kitchen in their building that they could use on the weekends.

704

And that we could use during the weekdays. And that was a great partnership. And then we just kept expanding the numbers of children we fed and also the schools.

705

But in the end, a woman named Jacinda Rodden, we met and she ended up joining our board. And we were working together with her. And we didn't know at the time that she was going to become the Prime Minister of New Zealand.

706

What? Yeah. She was actually an I body back then. Yes. I want to have a road map. Everything that led you to this and then how you join and then now in this person.

707

Because that is absolutely beautiful. It would be great to have that in visual form. Yeah.

708

So I can't get Aaron to do it. My husband's after sick. There we go. Yeah. Something for him to do. So when I'm mad, Linda, I really felt that she was going to move mountains.

709

That was why I actually found Laurie and said I think she's going to move mountains. We need her on our board.

710

Do you remember my response? What was your response?

711

You're like she needs to be on our board. And I said, no, she can't be on our board. Because of the political stuff.

712

Yeah. Politically, right? She's aligned to a political party and then it could, we could be seen to be aligned to a political party.

713

It's too, I don't like the idea. She goes, I know, I know. She's just meet her and then you'll know. Yeah. I meet her and I'm like, okay. Yeah.

714

Yeah. And I think she was also meant to be on that. She already had history of philanthropy. Yeah.

715

And she'd worked in a soup kitchen in New York. Yeah. Just she'd done all these things. I don't like it. Yeah.

716

And so she was passionate about alleviating food insecurity. And I think with anybody, with everybody, we're not always going to agree on everything.

717

That was one thing that we definitely agreed on that the food insecurity needed to be addressed.

718

And she was definitely very passionate about it. And yeah, I just felt like she was going to move mountains.

719

And she was very much, met her. She felt the same thing. So it was a little bit of a tricky thing getting her on to a board.

720

Because some people left because of the political party. Most of them left. Yeah. Yeah.

721

And that was literally, Lori and I at this particular board meeting went around the corner.

722

And Laurie's, I don't know if you remember this, but you're just like, okay, we need to make the final decision.

723

And I was just like, oh, we're going to lose some good people. But then it was like, okay, I've got to stick to that feeling

724

it was important to bring her on.

725

Yes.

726

And so we did that and we got more people.

727

It ended up being actually really positive change over.

728

And so then she became quite well-known after that.

729

And by the time she up, she ended up like,

730

she came out to a couple of the schools,

731

worked in the kitchens.

732

And by then she was like deputy leader

733

of the opposition party by that time.

734

And then several months later,

735

she became the partner minister of New Zealand.

736

And one of the first things she did was

737

the within school program.

738

And imagine if we're gone.

739

I have goosebumps.

740

I just imagine if we had caved to.

741

And kept the board members who wanted to,

742

who didn't think it was a good idea.

743

Yeah.

744

So you were sweating.

745

I wanted to.

746

You were really under pressure.

747

But what I like in that story is that

748

sometimes you are not going to be in agreement

749

to when you're trying to do the right thing.

750

With a lot of people.

751

And it's OK.

752

Yeah.

753

As long as you know deep down in your heart

754

that you're doing the right thing,

755

I've been through that situation before with my family.

756

I knew that the path that I was taking

757

in getting married was the right path

758

when people didn't agree.

759

And I stuck with it.

760

I stuck with it not because I wanted

761

to be in disagreement with my family

762

because nobody wants to, you don't

763

want to be in disagreement with your family.

764

But I knew what God wanted me to do.

765

And I am grateful till today that I took that path.

766

Because I have seen my life blessed over and over

767

for sticking to that.

768

So I'm glad that you stuck to that.

769

I just seen your father opening that door,

770

putting you in place to help lead her into that light

771

and that light being that bigger picture of not just

772

this one or two schools, but all the schools now,

773

being able to have that, the food insecurity taken care of.

774

And now you're going to have future leaders of New Zealand

775

who will grow up because they can focus on important things

776

and be able to lead their country

777

and be able to lead families and do much bigger things.

778

Like I, I'm so curious sometimes to see the domino effect.

779

Yes, the domino effect of that one child

780

that whose lives got changed, who got to go invent something

781

that now is curing some sickness in the whole world

782

and is now people are being saved, it's just incredible.

783

So thank you, thank you, thank you for just accepting a calling,

784

persevering and then just making it such a beautiful thing

785

to just look beyond yourselves, look beyond your insecurities,

786

look beyond who am I, question and just trust

787

that God will truly lead you and guide you.

788

Yeah, and you mentioned the light.

789

I think it really was, we both got an email,

790

highly confidential.

791

Don't tell anyone. Yeah.

792

And there was this like crown stamp on the letter.

793

Yes. And so the first time, I think I told you I got it.

794

Yes, they're scammed.

795

Like a scam. So I was like ignoring it.

796

I didn't know that. Sorry, rang my hand.

797

I'm like, I got second email saying,

798

highly confidential, shall I open it?

799

And because I really am bad at technology.

800

And so I wasn't sure if it was going to bag in the whole

801

computer system. So anyway, but when I opened it,

802

I literally was like, oh my goodness, that's why we're going to the

803

government building.

804

And obviously we could take immediate family with us.

805

You didn't know that I had received the same letter.

806

And then I'm like, can I, then she called me and she was,

807

I'm not going to tell you this.

808

But I'm going to tell you.

809

I'm coming over because I'm receiving it.

810

And I'm like, I am too.

811

She's like, why don't you tell me?

812

I'd assume because you were over in the States

813

by that time that it wasn't a thing.

814

But I was so excited that you were going to be coming over for that as well.

815

And I think the fact that like, your dad was there.

816

And one of the things that happened up that way, he was there.

817

He was there.

818

And he was telling everybody all these strangers,

819

like the guests that were out there.

820

So I'm telling all these strangers about our shared dreams.

821

And you're like, I live through.

822

I'm coming up to us and they're like, task.

823

So he had to do it. And I'm like, whoa.

824

I'm not comfortable with this.

825

And so I shied away from sharing my dreams.

826

And I look back and I have felt I really shouldn't have done that.

827

Like I should have been courageous.

828

And we were talking last night just how like bold and faithful and courageous he was.

829

But then Laurie was like, he wasn't always that way.

830

Like it kind of came later.

831

And so I was like, oh, OK.

832

Oh, he was.

833

Yeah, he was mocked for it when he was younger

834

because he would share how he would see someone's dead grandparent or something.

835

And thinking it was just normal and natural as it's what they would do.

836

And then he would get teased about it.

837

So he just locked up.

838

And it took him a long time to be able to share those things.

839

Probably in his 40s, it's when he started to do that, share it wider.

840

So he was human?

841

Yeah.

842

Oh, definitely human.

843

Yeah.

844

So I think that was something that propelled me to share my dreams.

845

And he's obviously when he passed away, I made a promise to him that I would.

846

And I've tried to keep that promise.

847

But you talked about the light.

848

And I always wondered, I'd always think, well, maybe this, maybe that, maybe this.

849

But when I actually went through those brown doors, there wasn't the bright light that I'd

850

sing in my dream.

851

There were guests.

852

There was this red carpet.

853

There was shunned liers.

854

And I literally was like, why was there that light in the dream?

855

And that's when I had my moment of final understanding that the light was about God's

856

love, God's work, and an invitation to serve and come closer to Christ.

857

And yeah, by the time I've reached the end of the red carpet, I was a blub room mess.

858

And so I think I just got that final understanding, which was really beautiful because we were

859

both wearing cotter-wise.

860

Can you explain for our listeners?

861

Yeah, cotter-wise a cloak of, a traditional cloak of jia feathers and flax that has been

862

processed.

863

It takes a really long time and put together and sew on carefully.

864

It takes a long time to do that.

865

And it is something that is used on really special occasions to honour the person that

866

is wearing it.

867

And yeah, we were both able to wear.

868

So first time I had worn a cotter-wise at the age of...

869

And I didn't know that until we were driving here.

870

Yeah, to this podcast, I didn't realise that was the first time.

871

So it was just a real special experience.

872

I was telling Kerry that I thought it would be just like a stuffy kind of no-feeling kind

873

of experience.

874

That's what I thought, but it was so different.

875

I came in thinking, oh, it's going to be hand-out, you certificate, a bit cold and...

876

Yeah, official.

877

...official, but it was the exact opposite.

878

I was really blown away by the feeling of reverence that was the honour for everyone

879

that was receiving an award.

880

And so I certainly enjoyed the experience and came away like I was on a cloud.

881

Yeah, for sure.

882

I didn't know.

883

So our daughters, biological family, were the ones that asked if I would want to wear

884

their family cotter-wise.

885

And initially I thought, oh, that's probably been insensitive to the Māori culture.

886

Should I be wearing it?

887

Here's that doubt again.

888

I had this little debate in my mind, and so I prayed about it.

889

And when I prayed about it, I was actually driving at the time.

890

And I remember it was just like, this is an extension.

891

They're extending their love.

892

And appreciation.

893

Yeah.

894

And this is a good thing.

895

It's an honour.

896

Yeah.

897

It's an honour, absolute honour.

898

I only mailed back and said I'd be on it to wear a rip.

899

But we were talking in the car earlier that I asked what the cotter-wise symbolised.

900

And their particular cotter-wise symbolised the arms of love from past generations, present

901

and future.

902

Which is cool.

903

It's so beautiful.

904

But I didn't realise until Marianne Abbe's grandmother placed it on me.

905

I actually literally felt this overwhelming love come over me.

906

That literally took my breath away.

907

And I thought, is Marianne feeling the same thing?

908

Does she know what I'm feeling?

909

And she looked up at me as she was tying the string and her eyes were filled with tears.

910

And I'm like, okay, she's feeling it too.

911

And so that was, I love that I had the opportunity because it made it all, like Laurie was saying,

912

it was actually a lovely ceremony with lots of feeling.

913

And it was just a beautiful ceremony.

914

But having, wearing the cotter-wise also and seeing Laurie and her cotter-wise, she looked

915

amazing.

916

Like it was just all that more like incredible.

917

And almost you've done the works and you're allowed to enjoy this moment.

918

And guess what?

919

You're going to have Abbe's ancestors with you.

920

And so that was special, wasn't it?

921

Yeah.

922

Yeah.

923

And what an incredible connection to your daughter as well.

924

Yeah.

925

Just saying that you've gone over and beyond for her people and for her just ancestors in

926

the future.

927

Yeah.

928

But you've made a path for the future.

929

And that's huge.

930

Thank you so much.

931

I want to also touch on what's happening now, you know, with the feed the need, how

932

if things are still being measured.

933

So Laurie is actually, she's in a really an amazing position nationally to do with the

934

Food and School programme.

935

So when she was talking earlier about that path leading to feeding.

936

Yeah, nutrition.

937

Like she's still having flashbacks to like, oh my gosh, be the need, prepared me for what

938

I'm doing now.

939

So like her role is pretty huge and her responsibility is pretty huge.

940

And it's just, it was, but then the government cut all our jobs.

941

So I'm still there.

942

Yeah.

943

I've still got my big mouth.

944

So.

945

Yeah.

946

And so, yeah.

947

So that's what, but yeah, we can go into that.

948

Yeah.

949

Okay.

950

So let's talk about the little boy.

951

Yes.

952

Okay.

953

Yeah.

954

Tell me.

955

Yes.

956

So we were at a school and this little boy came out.

957

Oh, it was their pilot school?

958

Yes.

959

And he came up and said, are you two sisters?

960

And he was looking up and I kind of just giggled because I'm just like, well, obviously

961

not.

962

We had a good laugh at it, didn't we?

963

And then, but he stood there and we were kind of like, he's like, no, seriously, I'm asking

964

it.

965

Yeah.

966

Serious question.

967

Like, so then I'm like, oh, he's, this is a serious question because we'd get like questions

968

all the time, like, we'd have kids say to me, like, why don't you have any eyebrows?

969

So now I colour them in.

970

But like, just kind of cute stuff.

971

Yes.

972

But yeah, so I just thought it was just another one of those.

973

But then I realised that he was being earnest in his question.

974

Like he really was sunning their weight.

975

And so I said, well, we're not sisters.

976

But when we serve together, we feel like sisters.

977

And it was funny because with that, he kind of was like, oh, and then run off.

978

And it was funny because it wasn't actually like that significance of that interaction.

979

It didn't really hit me until years later until I was here actually living in America.

980

It was one morning I woke up thinking about this interaction.

981

And I just felt like, I need to write about this.

982

There's a story in this that needs to be heard.

983

And so it kind of took me a surprise because I hadn't really given it much thought until

984

this particular morning.

985

So I started like, you know, putting it into my notes on my phone and then ended up lubbering

986

my eyes out and really feeling like this is an important message that if we could all

987

act like we're brothers and sisters, that the children who are watching us very closely,

988

you know, how different the world would be if we actually did demonstrate how we should

989

be treating one another.

990

And then also it kind of highlighted the fact that, yeah, we are different.

991

Laurie's Maori, I'm English, Pakeo White.

992

We've got lots of differences, different cultures and so forth.

993

But then, which is a beautiful thing, having those differences and I think we should celebrate

994

them.

995

But then at the same time, like to remember that actually we have more in common than

996

we do differences because actually we're all brothers and sisters and there's a loving

997

God that's waiting for us after this life.

998

And so I think that was another message that I felt like I was being taught as I was typing

999

on my phone, lubbering my eyes out.

00:59:28,989 --> 00:59:30,789

And so that was eventually published.

00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:31,789

I never planned it.

00:59:31,789 --> 00:59:35,789

I just put it out on my family and friends' Facebook post, but then eventually it was

00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:38,949

noted by somebody and put forward.

00:59:38,949 --> 00:59:40,389

So then it was published.

00:59:40,389 --> 00:59:44,309

And so it definitely was a message that I think, and I think we still need to keep be

00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:45,309

reminded.

00:59:45,309 --> 00:59:46,309

Yes, we do.

00:59:46,309 --> 00:59:49,590

And I think children can teach us those simple things.

00:59:49,590 --> 00:59:50,949

And so, yeah.

00:59:50,949 --> 00:59:54,389

So when she told me this story, the first thing that I thought, of course he thinks you're

00:59:54,389 --> 00:59:57,750

sisters because children are looking at you with spiritual eyes.

00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:58,750

Yeah.

00:59:58,750 --> 01:00:04,789

And so much thinner for them than I feel like with adults, we get like our, it gets like

01:00:04,789 --> 01:00:10,070

washed away with all the stresses of life, the get a job, go to school, do all these things.

01:00:10,070 --> 01:00:12,030

And then we kind of get away from that.

01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:14,469

But then with children, they're so pure.

01:00:14,469 --> 01:00:18,750

And it's part of why Christ tells us to be like children, right?

01:00:18,750 --> 01:00:23,630

So because they're so pure and it's just the way that they see things very differently.

01:00:23,630 --> 01:00:26,630

So I think what, when you told me that story, the first thing that I thought, well, of

01:00:26,630 --> 01:00:28,710

course, he's looking at you.

01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:30,469

He's looking at you with the spiritual eyes.

01:00:30,469 --> 01:00:32,829

And he just wants to confirm what he's seeing.

01:00:32,829 --> 01:00:38,869

And when you didn't respond in a way that was confirming to him, it was just like, well,

01:00:38,869 --> 01:00:39,869

are you?

01:00:39,869 --> 01:00:40,869

Yeah.

01:00:40,869 --> 01:00:43,949

You know, like let me know so I can move on to my next play.

01:00:43,949 --> 01:00:50,710

And I'm glad that you let him know that because even though he could see it and it didn't, obviously

01:00:50,710 --> 01:00:52,829

he can also see the differences too.

01:00:52,829 --> 01:00:54,869

And that's why he's trying to like connect.

01:00:54,869 --> 01:00:58,510

And you explaining that to him was just a very perfect way to just let him know that

01:00:58,510 --> 01:01:02,630

like, yes, I know we look different, but we are, we're still sisters.

01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:03,630

Yeah.

01:01:03,630 --> 01:01:07,150

Again, I love that you wrote that down and you said it has been published.

01:01:07,150 --> 01:01:09,110

Can you tell us where it was published in?

01:01:09,110 --> 01:01:13,110

Sorry, it was published in the Lea Hana.

01:01:13,110 --> 01:01:15,630

And it was interesting because.

01:01:15,630 --> 01:01:19,789

And for those that don't know what the Lea Hana is, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of

01:01:19,789 --> 01:01:22,710

Latter-day Saints magazine.

01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:25,309

And so it went from a Facebook post.

01:01:25,309 --> 01:01:29,110

And then someone else saw it and then someone asked if it could be published there.

01:01:29,110 --> 01:01:33,909

Because it was that beautiful and that meaningful and it's something that we need to be reminded

01:01:33,909 --> 01:01:34,909

all the time.

01:01:34,909 --> 01:01:35,909

Yeah.

01:01:35,909 --> 01:01:39,590

Because I think sometimes in society we tend to forget, we tend to, you know, just, oh,

01:01:39,590 --> 01:01:41,269

strangers, strangers, that's not my problem.

01:01:41,269 --> 01:01:44,429

But we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:01:44,429 --> 01:01:48,590

And we need to take that more seriously and live that way.

01:01:48,590 --> 01:01:49,590

Yeah.

01:01:49,590 --> 01:01:50,590

Yeah.

01:01:50,590 --> 01:01:51,590

We would lie down our lives for our family.

01:01:51,590 --> 01:01:54,670

I think of my, I've got two younger sisters.

01:01:54,670 --> 01:01:56,670

And we can finish off each other sentences.

01:01:56,670 --> 01:01:58,989

We will not sandwiches and sandwiches.

01:01:58,989 --> 01:02:04,789

I mean, I'm having a drink and while I'm talking, my sister just grabs a drink out.

01:02:04,789 --> 01:02:08,710

You know, there's that closeness and that love that's there.

01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:12,219

A witch I think is what he would have seen.

01:02:12,219 --> 01:02:14,059

We love each other.

01:02:14,059 --> 01:02:18,579

And do anything for each other as you do, your brother or sister.

01:02:18,579 --> 01:02:20,820

And I think that's what he saw.

01:02:20,820 --> 01:02:23,500

But a wonderful lesson, right?

01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:28,420

We like a stranger on the street is our brother or our sister.

01:02:28,420 --> 01:02:32,539

And God expects us to show them the same kind of love and affection.

01:02:32,539 --> 01:02:33,539

Yeah.

01:02:33,539 --> 01:02:34,539

Yeah.

01:02:34,539 --> 01:02:39,380

You know, one of the refugees that we work with, he's an interpreter and he told me he has

01:02:39,380 --> 01:02:40,380

dreams.

01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:43,579

And I'm like, so I think God can reach everyone.

01:02:43,579 --> 01:02:44,579

Oh, absolutely.

01:02:44,579 --> 01:02:45,579

Which ever could be.

01:02:45,579 --> 01:02:46,579

Absolutely.

01:02:46,579 --> 01:02:51,559

And I, so for me, I remember thinking, you know, growing up, the, the scriptures always

01:02:51,559 --> 01:02:55,440

seemed so like, oh, it's about those people at that time.

01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,280

And then one now is like, well, what's, what's wrong with us?

01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,199

Why would God not talk to us?

01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:03,840

Why would God not show his presence in our lives today?

01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,639

And when I was investigating our church, that was one of the things that, but that was one

01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:13,800

of the realizations that I received was if God spoke to Moses and spoke to all these

01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,119

other people in the New Testament, why would he not?

01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:19,000

Why would he just leave us?

01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,840

And just make us wait for Jesus to come again.

01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,480

Like he's still talking to us.

01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,800

He's still talking to us through Jesus.

01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:26,880

He's still here.

01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,320

He's still miracles still exist.

01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,199

I am a beneficiary of plenty of miracles in my life.

01:03:33,199 --> 01:03:40,400

I look back and on my life and I can see his hand in so many different aspects of my life

01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,480

that I am here for a reason.

01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:44,480

I'm sitting here with you guys for a reason.

01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,000

I know you didn't just call me to say, Hey, Esther, what do you think about this?

01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,880

Well, there's all part of God's plan and I truly believe in that.

01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,679

And we look back in the book that we wrote together.

01:03:54,679 --> 01:03:59,159

That's, I mean, just a story and not alone is just nothing but God's plan.

01:03:59,159 --> 01:04:01,800

His hand has been in every single part of it.

01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,960

And yes, we had to write that book together just so we can sit here together and talk about

01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,480

something completely different.

01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:08,480

Yeah.

01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:13,679

You know, so I know that dreams are a huge part of how God talks to his children.

01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:19,480

I know that if we allow ourselves to be vessels, to do his work on his earth, that he will

01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:24,400

truly help and guide us through that culturally, you know, I'm Nigerian.

01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,880

My culture is deeply rooted in spirituality.

01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,840

Right before Christianity came, we're just very, I always believe like Africans are like,

01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:40,960

we just have such a close connection with spirituality and God because even, you know, just even before

01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,960

Christianity, the way that we've always lived has always been like there was a higher

01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:45,960

being.

01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:46,960

Yep.

01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:48,519

And we all on the student that.

01:04:48,519 --> 01:04:53,800

So growing up for me, and we grew up in a very Christian home, we had preachers that would

01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,159

talk about dreams.

01:04:55,159 --> 01:05:00,840

I remember one dream in particular that one of them had for my sister who is now a doctor

01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,320

in Ohio.

01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:07,719

The dream was that she would be wearing a white coat with pens in it.

01:05:07,719 --> 01:05:14,039

And to us at that time, that white coat meant that she would be a doctor, that she would

01:05:14,039 --> 01:05:16,159

be in the medical field.

01:05:16,159 --> 01:05:18,719

And that's exactly what she's doing right now in her life.

01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:24,239

So I remember that dream, even as a kid, like, you know, you hear things and you don't really,

01:05:24,239 --> 01:05:28,079

like they're not talking to you, they're just talking, their adults are talking and just

01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:29,079

there.

01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:30,079

Right.

01:05:30,079 --> 01:05:32,960

But I remember that always stood out to me, that always stood out to me.

01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,480

And part of that dream was the path for her to come to the United States.

01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,360

And I kind of came along with my sister, the United States.

01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:45,760

So to see her accomplish that dream and our help that dream come true, it's just been

01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,239

very impactful in my life.

01:05:48,239 --> 01:05:52,800

They didn't have a dream about me being a business woman.

01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,199

But it definitely had that about her.

01:05:55,199 --> 01:05:59,480

And it was definitely something that even as a kid, I still remember and I still remember

01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,000

it as Claire's day till today.

01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:10,480

So I'm interested to know like culture wise, how dreams are seen for the Maori people and

01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,880

how that impacted your life.

01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:20,800

Yeah, like you, it is just the norm in our culture as Maori, very spiritually rooted,

01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:28,559

a belief in the afterlife and that our ancestors around us, they are influencing us, talking to

01:06:28,639 --> 01:06:31,480

us, come to us in dreams as well.

01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,119

But not everyone has them.

01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:40,199

And our family, it's a gift that's been passed down from God through the generations.

01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:43,960

And as I said, my sister has the same gift as my dad.

01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,159

And so it's just been a normal part of conversation.

01:06:47,159 --> 01:06:52,159

And even like those who aren't, don't have Christian beliefs, who are Maori, still that

01:06:52,159 --> 01:06:58,679

is, there is still that belief in the afterlife that life goes on that our ancestors are connected

01:06:59,239 --> 01:06:59,760

to us.

01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:05,519

So there's a huge alignment with the gospel of Jesus Christ, our church.

01:07:05,519 --> 01:07:10,480

And that's always been natural and normal for someone to say, oh, you know, my auntie

01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,320

had a dream that this and that.

01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:18,920

Around the table at work, if I'm working in a Maori organization, is just the norm.

01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:24,039

And so I particularly have been really blessed to have my father have that gift.

01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:31,309

We've had warnings, you know, guidance around our path and what we should be doing and,

01:07:31,309 --> 01:07:33,309

you know, where we should be going.

01:07:33,309 --> 01:07:38,030

So in my sister continues that with my dad having passed away.

01:07:38,030 --> 01:07:40,630

And Kerry's got the same gift.

01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:47,070

We call it Mata Kite, which is the seeing eye, being able to perceive and see things

01:07:47,070 --> 01:07:52,349

that are spiritual, that, you know, human physical eyes cannot see.

01:07:52,349 --> 01:07:59,719

And that is, yeah, that's been a real gift and real blessing for our family.

01:07:59,719 --> 01:08:08,119

So let me just ask, having seen the same gift that your dad had and your sister has in Kerry,

01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:10,699

like does that just blow your mind?

01:08:10,699 --> 01:08:15,139

Yeah, because it's not something that I would talk to an Maori person about.

01:08:15,139 --> 01:08:23,140

Yeah, particularly Caucasian because it's not typically a line to what their beliefs

01:08:23,140 --> 01:08:25,140

system often is.

01:08:25,140 --> 01:08:28,779

And so it was just buzzy for me to see.

01:08:28,779 --> 01:08:29,779

Like, wow.

01:08:29,779 --> 01:08:34,100

So that, and I think that's dad's why this, well, he didn't say Paki, it was like the

01:08:34,100 --> 01:08:40,619

skinny Paki, like, not fitting the bill of what who might typically have that gift.

01:08:40,619 --> 01:08:48,649

And so that it was kind of, it was just weird for me to have someone that wasn't brown,

01:08:48,649 --> 01:08:54,010

their heads, those same experiences, just like my dad has a feeling that kind of weight

01:08:54,010 --> 01:08:59,529

of responsibility that comes with it, that my father would carry as well.

01:08:59,529 --> 01:09:02,369

So it was kind of, yeah, it was really weird.

01:09:02,369 --> 01:09:08,850

Well, there was one occasion where we were trying to get this kara to do the pilot.

01:09:08,850 --> 01:09:15,130

And so before we ended up going the three of us, David said to me, I want you to share

01:09:15,130 --> 01:09:16,289

your dreams.

01:09:16,289 --> 01:09:21,810

And I had not shared my dreams like ever publicly.

01:09:21,810 --> 01:09:25,810

And so I was just like, that's not happening.

01:09:25,810 --> 01:09:27,170

You're alone on this one.

01:09:27,170 --> 01:09:28,170

Right.

01:09:28,170 --> 01:09:29,649

There were lots of people at that.

01:09:29,649 --> 01:09:30,649

Wow.

01:09:30,649 --> 01:09:33,289

That gathering to what you were in the right place though.

01:09:33,289 --> 01:09:35,770

Well, it's interesting because of that.

01:09:35,770 --> 01:09:39,850

So he said, David said, pray about it.

01:09:39,850 --> 01:09:44,970

And then when I prayed about it, I'm like, you got to share your dreams.

01:09:44,970 --> 01:09:46,850

And so I was super nervous.

01:09:46,850 --> 01:09:50,689

Laurie was my little cheerleader on the side and saying it's going to be OK.

01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:53,770

But David stood up with his toco toco.

01:09:53,770 --> 01:09:55,569

We haven't actually talked about that.

01:09:55,569 --> 01:09:57,689

And was talking in his language.

01:09:57,689 --> 01:10:02,489

And then he said my name and gestured for me to, it was time to stand up.

01:10:02,489 --> 01:10:07,680

And I remember it was so awkward because I'm like, hi.

01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,600

My name's Karen Owen.

01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,800

But it was shifted when finally it was like, OK, just let go and go.

01:10:15,119 --> 01:10:18,520

So once I started sharing my dreams, it was interesting.

01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,680

It was interesting for me as this white English girl who'd never publicly talked

01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:25,600

about my dreams to be in this situation.

01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:32,279

But what was very noticeable was that their expressions changed,

01:10:32,279 --> 01:10:35,239

their posture changed, they sat up and they were listening,

01:10:35,239 --> 01:10:37,800

their eyes were locked on mine.

01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,720

And you could see some were crying.

01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:45,319

And it was in that moment where I was just like, David was right.

01:10:45,319 --> 01:10:49,119

This, I needed to share my dreams because otherwise it would just be like,

01:10:49,119 --> 01:10:51,279

hi, I'm Kerry Owen, you know, sort of thing.

01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:53,319

But it was, yeah.

01:10:53,319 --> 01:10:56,159

And so it was like, this is bigger.

01:10:56,159 --> 01:10:56,920

This is bigger.

01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,840

And trust, trust in what I'm going to say, I guess.

01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:01,640

And they did.

01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:06,199

And it was, you know, I put it, I write that experience in the book because I

01:11:06,199 --> 01:11:10,869

realised that this was a language dream, talking about dreams.

01:11:10,869 --> 01:11:15,069

It's a language that a Marty, like respect, trust.

01:11:15,069 --> 01:11:19,430

And so I think it was probably strange for them to have this English girl.

01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:21,869

Their eyes were like, what it would have been.

01:11:21,869 --> 01:11:22,350

Yeah.

01:11:22,350 --> 01:11:24,029

How is she like, right?

01:11:24,029 --> 01:11:25,750

How is she capable of doing that?

01:11:25,750 --> 01:11:27,229

If that was our thing, yeah.

01:11:27,229 --> 01:11:27,710

Yeah.

01:11:27,710 --> 01:11:28,270

Yeah.

01:11:28,270 --> 01:11:32,149

And I remember at the end, the principal stood up and said,

01:11:32,149 --> 01:11:34,630

you've now adopted 183 children.

01:11:34,630 --> 01:11:39,270

And because we'd just adopted our daughter, we adopted our sudden few years earlier,

01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:40,789

that was like, whoo.

01:11:40,789 --> 01:11:44,630

That was like extra special, but also that responsibility as well.

01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:46,149

Like, OK.

01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:46,909

Yeah.

01:11:46,909 --> 01:11:47,430

It is.

01:11:47,430 --> 01:11:47,869

Yeah.

01:11:47,869 --> 01:11:55,829

And I think, for me, that gave you credibility because you're someone not of

01:11:55,829 --> 01:11:57,670

their culture coming in.

01:11:57,670 --> 01:12:04,989

And for us as Marty, trying to regain our autonomy, to be able to make

01:12:04,989 --> 01:12:11,029

decisions for our own welfare and our own well-being, as opposed to that being,

01:12:11,109 --> 01:12:18,149

yeah, being put on us and those decisions being made by a government or a community,

01:12:18,149 --> 01:12:21,470

a white community that doesn't understand the needs and how to do that.

01:12:21,470 --> 01:12:25,270

It's something that we as a community want to retain that autonomy to make

01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:27,350

decisions for ourselves and do things for ourselves.

01:12:27,350 --> 01:12:31,229

So having an outsider come in and say, I can help you.

01:12:31,229 --> 01:12:32,909

And it's like, no, we can help ourselves.

01:12:32,909 --> 01:12:33,430

Yeah.

01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:35,550

You think you are coming into your community.

01:12:35,550 --> 01:12:40,630

You sharing those dreams, help them to see into you as a person.

01:12:40,630 --> 01:12:42,350

And help them to see your heart.

01:12:42,350 --> 01:12:45,390

Because I think of the connection that we had.

01:12:45,390 --> 01:12:50,670

And when I talk to friends who are Marty about our relationship, they're like,

01:12:50,670 --> 01:12:54,750

I'm like, it's kind of like she's a brown person, trapped in a white body.

01:12:54,750 --> 01:12:57,270

Like, that is how I feel.

01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:59,229

And it's, you know, race aside.

01:12:59,229 --> 01:13:05,829

It's more like the values that we hold the way, you know, of it's all about caring

01:13:05,829 --> 01:13:06,590

for other people.

01:13:06,590 --> 01:13:08,949

That is what drives you.

01:13:08,949 --> 01:13:12,470

It is about, it's not about anything else except the people.

01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:16,430

I mean, that's what you had at the end of your book as well.

01:13:16,430 --> 01:13:18,510

It's always about the people.

01:13:18,510 --> 01:13:21,189

The people, it's not any other kind of motive that's there.

01:13:21,189 --> 01:13:23,829

That was really clear when you spoke.

01:13:23,829 --> 01:13:29,199

And so that allowed them to see into you and what was driving you.

01:13:29,199 --> 01:13:33,199

It's funny because I kind of knew, although I hadn't been in this country that long,

01:13:33,199 --> 01:13:40,159

that like, I was worried that people would interpret my eagerness to help as like,

01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:41,560

who are you to come here?

01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:42,600

You know what I mean?

01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:47,720

I usually say, you know, let's don't try to be the white Jesus.

01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:48,720

Yeah, yeah.

01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:53,000

And it's like, they're people that have that sort of like, we're okay.

01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:54,000

Yes.

01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:55,640

And you didn't do that.

01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:01,399

And it takes me back to your dream where you asked why me.

01:14:01,399 --> 01:14:02,000

Yeah.

01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,600

And the answer was because you have a good heart.

01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:05,399

Yeah.

01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:07,520

And that's what they saw that day.

01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:09,399

That was David's dream.

01:14:09,399 --> 01:14:10,399

Yeah.

01:14:10,399 --> 01:14:12,319

Because you have a good heart.

01:14:12,319 --> 01:14:13,439

And that's it.

01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,319

Not because you're white, not because you're blonde, not because you're blue-eyed,

01:14:16,319 --> 01:14:18,000

not because you're a skinny white girl.

01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:20,960

You're just, you know, you have a good heart.

01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:25,479

And at the end of the day, that's what God sees and wants others to see.

01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,399

And you've gotten a chance to see that.

01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:29,560

And I saw that from the first time I met you.

01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:31,800

So thank you.

01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,800

I don't know if you're in nature.

01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,800

I think you're in nature.

01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:36,800

Like, yes.

01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,800

Jumping into, you know, being out of the comfort zone.

01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:40,800

Mm-hmm.

01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,800

I do feel like the charity work forces you to go out of your comfort zone for sure.

01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:51,199

When I was, when you're sharing that story about Dad saying, why is this, all this girl

01:14:51,199 --> 01:14:52,199

help?

01:14:52,199 --> 01:14:54,600

And I was thinking, well, there are other things as well.

01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,800

That is the most important, that's the most important.

01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:03,890

From what I, like, one of the gifts that Curie has is that she is a ridiculous advocate

01:15:03,890 --> 01:15:06,170

for children or for the vulnerable, right?

01:15:06,170 --> 01:15:07,890

People can walk all over here.

01:15:07,890 --> 01:15:11,329

She lets them do that because she's such a kind soul, right?

01:15:11,329 --> 01:15:17,609

And she won't stand up for herself a lot of the time, but boy, look out because she is

01:15:17,609 --> 01:15:20,250

a fierce mama bear.

01:15:20,250 --> 01:15:21,250

And I've seen it.

01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:23,609

I'm like, I saw glimpses in the video.

01:15:23,609 --> 01:15:24,609

Oh my God.

01:15:24,609 --> 01:15:25,609

She's a fierce mama bear.

01:15:25,609 --> 01:15:26,609

I'm like, I'm a bear.

01:15:26,609 --> 01:15:27,609

You know, when he gets here, it's not.

01:15:27,609 --> 01:15:32,289

She'll share with me how she had an experience with someone kind of attacking her and how

01:15:32,289 --> 01:15:33,289

she kind of freaked out.

01:15:33,289 --> 01:15:35,369

I'm like, bring that mama bear out, man.

01:15:35,369 --> 01:15:37,329

Like, hand it back to her.

01:15:37,329 --> 01:15:42,439

But that's not how she rolls, but in that space, just where it's about looking after

01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:49,239

those who are less fortunate, who are vulnerable, she's like, it's who you want on your side,

01:15:49,239 --> 01:15:50,239

you know?

01:15:50,239 --> 01:15:51,239

Absolutely.

01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:54,319

And, yeah, being able to persevere with that and just go at it.

01:15:54,319 --> 01:15:58,319

It's just been amazing to watch on the sidelines.