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Feeling Good Enough with Joshua Fletcher
Episode 15 • 30th May 2024 • Good Enough Counsellors • Josephine Hughes
00:00:00 00:53:21

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How can counsellors navigate their self-doubt and their inner critical voice as they deliver therapy? Hear from Joshua Fletcher, author of And how does that make you feel? in this wide ranging interview which discusses his motivation, his life as a therapist and author and the vital importance of authenticity.

In today's episode:

  • Who's Daphne?
  • Client confidentiality and the ethics of publishing a counselling book with case studies
  • Therapist inner voices and mistakes in therapy
  • Working with celebrities and the impact of client expectations on celebrity therapists
  • How Josh grew his Instagram following
  • How vulnerability and authenticity speaks to potential clients
  • Josh's motivation following the death of his brother, Harry

You can find Josh on instagram @anxietyjosh and his book And how does that make you feel is published by Orion and is available in traditional and audio format.

Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE

Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE

You can also find me here:

The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group

Josephine Hughes on Facebook

Josephine Hughes on YouTube

My website: josephinehughes.com

The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.

Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.

Transcripts

Speaker:

I quite like imposter syndrome and self

-doubt because it stops you from becoming

2

:

an egoist as such.

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:

I used to think that self -doubt as a

therapist was something that was bad.

4

:

Now I realize it's probably one of the

best traits that you can have.

5

:

So if you're a therapist with self -doubt,

imposter syndrome, think people are better

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:

than you or whatever, yeah obviously if

it's consuming we work on that.

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:

But never lose some of it because having

self -doubt makes you try.

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:

It holds you accountable.

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:

You never think you're the finished

article.

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:

So today I'm welcoming Joshua Fletcher,

AKA Anxiety Josh on Instagram and TikTok,

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:

the writer of three books on anxiety.

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:

And we're here to talk about his latest

book, which is a UK top 100 seller on

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Amazon.

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And it's called, And How Does That Make

You Feel?

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:

with the subtitle, Everything You Never

Wanted To Know About Therapy.

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So Josh has a master's in counseling

psychology.

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He's got extra training in CBT for anxiety

and he's a member of the BACP.

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He regularly appears in the media

discussing mental health with features in

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The Guardian, The Times and The Daily

Mail.

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He co -hosts a podcast called Disordered,

which is a self -help podcast for people

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who struggle with anxiety.

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And I want to talk about the numbers.

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His following on social media is upwards

of 250 ,000 people and his podcast,

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has been loaded over 150 ,000 times, which

is amazing.

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So welcome, Josh.

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Thanks for coming onto the Good Nuff Pet

Counselors podcast.

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And I know everybody's really looking

forward to hearing from you.

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So welcome.

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Hi, Josephine.

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Thank you for having me on.

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I really appreciate it.

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Yeah.

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Also, what a lovely introduction.

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Can I employ you to introduce me to every

room I walk into?

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Everyone stop.

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60 seconds of introduction and then I'll

walk it.

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No, thank you.

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That's all right Gleaned gleaned from

what's available for about you on online.

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So yeah, so I'm gonna start by asking you

a question I know you're not even going to

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be able to answer Which is you may have

guessed who is Daphne?

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No, no, and that's the end of the podcast.

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Thanks for having me on see you later

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dear, I knew you would say that because

obviously confidentiality is a really big

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part of the whole book I mean, it's quite

a focus throughout the book.

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Isn't it you talk about confidentiality?

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It's quite a lot yeah, I mean with the

book and And how does that make you feel

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is was basically a book written to for?

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Therapists for people who are interested

in therapy if people have been to therapy

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people struggle with anxiety because

that's my passion

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providing psychoeducation and I wanted to

write something that was a bit different

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from the usual self -help, you know,

because if you're a therapist listening,

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you've probably, you know, you've gone

through loads of books, some of them are

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fascinating, interesting.

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I've got loads of counseling books with

sticky notes and stuff on, but they're a

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type of book, aren't they?

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I wanted to write a book that was just

easy reading, fun and allow people to feel

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seen and...

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Also to practice what I preach, which is,

you know, I believe the best therapists

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are human, authentic therapists that come

with flaws, what's and all.

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I hear a lot from anxious people, not

anxious therapists, you know, am I good

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enough, this and that, and I just thought,

well, I'm gonna just write what I do and

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see what happens.

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Confidentiality's a big one, of course.

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There was a rigorous ethical process

around it, which I can talk more about

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later on in the podcast if you'd like, but

you know, you don't.

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You don't put a book to publication

without obtaining consent and well,

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multiple consent as well as an ongoing

process and putting in those ethical

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considerations.

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Yeah, because I mean, one of the people

asked, and I think we need to sort of

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really get this out of the way right at

the start.

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They sort of said, how do you, did you

remember word for word what your clients

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said and the gestures, the action and the

actions they showed and your own verbal

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responses?

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So let's just get that one out of the way.

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No, no, is the answer to that.

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No, it is not word for word.

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It's more of a paraphrasing.

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The people in this book, the client in air

quotes case studies that is based on,

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they're actually an amalgamation of

several stories in here and several

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things.

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They're not just one person.

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And sorry to spoil that, but obviously you

have to do various ethical things.

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And the most ethical thing I could do is

not make.

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the four people in this book based on four

individuals.

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But they are an amalgamation of different

people, different stories and things I

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hear in this practice.

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Obviously I've made sure clients past and

present make sure they're aware of this,

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obtain consent all the way through it.

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Been so well supported through it and

yeah, everyone's on board with it and

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they're happy with the outcome.

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Spoiler there, to break some of the

mirage, they're not.

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all just one person.

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I get loads of people emailing and stuff

like, who is it?

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I've tried to Google who it was.

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I was like, yeah, of course you tried to

Google who it was.

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That's a compliment to the writing, thank

you.

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But no, there isn't transcripts I've

written up, unfortunately.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I know.

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It's a shame to spoil the illusion because

I sort of had this idea, especially with

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the lighter thing, that it must have been

Dame Helen Mirren.

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And I thought, no, no, it obviously isn't

because it's obviously not a real person,

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but it still makes you sort of think,

well, I wonder, you know, you do like to

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speculate, don't you?

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I don't think we'd be human if we didn't.

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No, of course, that's what I wanted as

well.

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I wanted to speculate and think about it.

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And I'm just trying to, I was trying to be

a bit shrewd, I think.

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And I think we're all fascinated by

celebrity culture as well.

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So I thought one of the client cases, if

you've not read the book, by the way,

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there's four different client case

studies.

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The first one we're introduced to is

someone called Daphne, who is a Hollywood

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celebrity actress.

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The second one is a man called Levi, who

is a security doorman of a nightclub.

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The third person is Zara, who is a newly

qualified doctor and GP.

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And the fourth one is a young lad called

Noah, who moves to the city, wants to

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build up the confidence to reveal the

secret that he's been holding on to.

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and they all have different things that

they bring to therapy and throughout the

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book I wanted to use these client case

studies as a stealth help, a kind of

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device.

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So I talk about what therapy is like, the

inner voices of the therapist, which I'm

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sure we'll talk about, and drop in lots of

psychoeducation about anxiety disorders,

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which is what I love.

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It's not great when you're out with your

mates.

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Can we talk about anxiety disorders?

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Like, no, mate, just watch the football.

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But yeah, just like I think stuff like

OCD, panic disorder, panic attacks, social

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anxiety, depression, and use these client

case studies to kind of explain, look,

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this is how it can present.

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Yeah, so that's what I've used these

client case studies in AirQuotes for.

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I was going to say, it must have been

quite difficult though, that whole

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publishing process.

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I've got an article coming out shortly and

you know, I had to obtain permission.

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for literally everything I said about

them.

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And I hadn't sort of really been aware of

really how much permission I would need to

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seek in order to be published.

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And, you know, because you're working with

publishing professionals as opposed to

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therapy professionals, was there some

guidance for you in how to sort of share?

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Did they have a legal department?

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I mean, how did it work with all that sort

of stuff?

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yeah, they've got a huge legal department.

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Obviously, as a publisher, they've got to

do their due diligence to make sure

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that...

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that they don't get sued.

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Of course, but I worked with my own

supervisor, informed my own membership

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body, and it was very similar to when I

did my master's thesis.

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I did my master's thesis on the

experiences of people with panic disorder

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seeking treatment.

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And you have to go through the ethics

department on that, not only obtaining

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initial consent, continuous consent, and

the right to withdraw.

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And that's always been there, as well as

things like aftercare,

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providing, you know, the doors always open

for anyone who feels that.

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But I've written it in a way where no one

can identify themselves.

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Yeah.

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And like you say, it's amalgamation of

different people, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I sent it out to all clients past the

previous let -loan.

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This is the project I'm doing.

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It's not about you.

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Yeah.

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But if you do have any qualms about it,

just let me know, you know.

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And this was an ongoing thing for two

years.

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that is an interesting one, particularly

on a therapist podcast.

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I've been on many podcasts and people are

like, they just, fair enough, I'm sure

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it's all right.

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But actually as therapists, we're like, I

wonder, did he do that?

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And I'll say, a lot of work.

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Yes, sounds like it.

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A lot of work.

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And then it's just crossing my fingers.

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Anyone who's done their thesis or masters

and they've interviewed people, maybe

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they've done a phenomenological analysis

or had volunteers just crossing their

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fingers like two days before submission.

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don't pull out, please don't, but at the

same time respecting like actually, well,

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if you do, that's fine.

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Because I know this is something that

you've talked about quite a lot.

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I mean, I'm veering off a little bit, but

it does sort of appear a little bit in the

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book is your sort of concern about

quackery, shall we say, people who maybe

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aren't qualified therapists, aren't

necessarily very ethical and that part of

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being in sort of in the media or, you

know, as somebody who's well known as a

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therapist, that this is actually something

that you've almost sort of, I wouldn't say

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exactly campaigned about, but certainly

got a concern about, haven't you, about

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how people might be persuaded to work with

people who aren't necessarily qualified?

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Yeah, it's a concern for me and for others

and my colleagues too is that...

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It's a combination of things, isn't it?

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It's like access to therapy for people in

the UK is very tricky and there's long

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waiting lists.

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We're not necessarily educated on the

different modalities of therapy.

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I've had some great therapy and I've had

some horrendous therapy and it's about

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finding the right one, so I write about

that.

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It breaks my heart when people go to

therapy once and there's no therapeutic

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connection or the modality wasn't correct.

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And I write about this in the book as

well, and like, I've tried therapy, it

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wasn't for me.

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And I think I use an analogy in the book,

don't I?

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It's like saying you tried sport once, and

all you tried was lawn balls.

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Which, nothing against lawn balls, you

know?

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But you couldn't say the whole of sport

was rubbish because you didn't like lawn

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balls.

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And so I wanted to put that in there, I

wanted to celebrate therapy and when

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therapy works.

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There's a lot of quackery on there, I am

online.

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and I do prance around in front of a

camera for Instagram and all that stuff,

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providing the psychoeducation that I'm

passionate about.

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But in that sphere, it's a double -edged

sword.

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So you've got some amazing information

there from people passionate about their

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work.

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And then you've got a breadth of

misinformation, particularly around mental

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health.

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And particularly in my world, it's

anxiety.

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You've got lots of encouraging compulsive

behaviors and safety behaviors which

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aren't gonna help people.

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get better and obviously it's a very

monetized world to be in says the guy

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sitting on a podcast promoting his book.

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But I mean, like the people who offer

things like behind paywalls and

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subscriptions and things like that, and I

have the magic technique to help you get

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better.

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I find that really, yeah, really

distressing.

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But on the plus side, there's some really

good stuff out there as well.

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It's a difficult one, isn't it?

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Because, I mean, especially for you,

because you see people day in, day out who

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are really suffering.

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And so to think that they're being sold

maybe a quick fix, that's not

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necessarily...

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really going to make a difference to them.

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It must be quite hard.

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Yeah, it's tricky.

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And in the UK, it's particularly prevalent

because we're the only, one of the few

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developed Western countries where therapy

isn't regulated.

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So, anyone can call themselves a therapist

and that does frighten me, but I'm not

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going to go on that ranty tangent today.

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Another time maybe, another time.

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So I just want to circle back actually,

because this is a question that I think,

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I get this much, much less than you, I

would imagine.

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But you know, I do get people who say,

it's so amazing to meet you face to face.

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Because, you know, I've got very, compared

to you, very, very small sort of, you

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know, following, but amongst counsellors,

I'm sort of reasonably well known.

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And I think that's sort of like, it can be

quite challenging.

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I noticed sort of in the Facebook groups,

you're quite humorous in coping with that

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sort of fandom or adulation.

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What's it like to?

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to sort of have that in sort of in the

therapy community or, you know, a bit

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wider because you have such a large

following on as a sort of influencer.

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Relatively speaking.

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influencer.

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It's content creator now, Josephine.

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Come on, don't use that word.

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Yeah, it's a strange one.

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It's not the level of fandom that you

think.

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I like respect, the respect I receive and

I like it.

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And actually it brings out my imposter

syndrome.

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You know, when you get people who perhaps

more experienced than me.

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trained in things I'm not trained in and

they come up to me and say, you know, it's

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really lovely to me, it's a privilege.

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And I'm thinking you're way more

experienced than I am, you know, and

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you're probably better than me.

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But, you know, thank you and I appreciate

it.

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I don't, I quite like impulse syndrome and

self doubt because it stops you from

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becoming an egoist as such.

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Don't get me wrong, there's an ego there,

but it's not like keeping it in check.

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And I think it's...

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I used to think that self -doubt as a

therapist was something that was bad.

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Now I realize it's probably one of the

best traits that you can have.

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So if you're a therapist with self -doubt,

imposter syndrome, think people are better

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than you, whatever.

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Yeah, obviously if it's consuming, we work

on that, but never lose some of it because

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having self -doubt makes you try.

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It holds you accountable.

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You never think you're the finished

article.

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I saw a therapist once many years ago and

I walked in.

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And the whole therapy room was just like a

shrine to this person's achievements.

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And I was like, and I was like, I'm not

going to connect with this person.

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I'm already scared of the power dynamic.

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I already have a problem with authority.

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You know, whereas some of the best therapy

I've had is with a newly qualified

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therapist who's really enthusiastic,

trying to do everything right and made me

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feel comfortable.

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And I much prefer that than.

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Jimmy 50 degrees on the wall, you know

what I don't, yeah.

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I think it's really interesting as well

because I think there's something around

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that need to display all your things on

the wall, your certificates on the wall,

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but perhaps it's actually indicative of

imposter syndrome.

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Maybe, yeah.

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In a funny sort of way.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it could be.

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Do you know what, so on my wall I've got

the British history timeline that I'm

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trying to memorize and some silhouette art

of Lord of the Rings.

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Stranger Things and Harry Potter and a

picture picture of my brother and some

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plants Yeah, we hear about the plants

don't we?

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Yeah, always the plants.

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Yeah.

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Yeah are yours are yours almost dying like

mine.

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They always have I never keep them alive.

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Yeah Welcome a client in here's a

nurturing place where we get better and

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they just look around there's just like a

dead eye dranger in the corner Yeah, I

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mean I've been quite lucky that I've sort

of

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worked with people who've kept the plants,

you know, rented rooms and she's actually

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got green fingers, so.

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Unfortunately, I don't have to keep them

alive myself, so.

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But like, I think the really lovely thing,

and I mean, it's interesting actually,

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because you describe the way your critic

is, but actually, towards the end of the

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book, your critic was making me laugh out

loud because of the sort of some of the

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things that he was saying, because you

have got that sort of ability to.

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to sort of poke a bit of fun at yourself

really when you use the inner voice of the

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critic.

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But I think that's what's one of the

really lovely things about the book is we

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get these different conversations.

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And actually before I came on the podcast,

because I was a bit late getting ready for

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it to be honest, and I had about 10

minutes to eat my dinner before we came on

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to meet each other.

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me too.

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I can still feel it digest.

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thank you.

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Biology.

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Yeah, I think it was a biology speaking

and I had my ryevita and I spilt hummus on

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my hand there you go You know, it's like

because you say you've got this change of

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of shirts and everything and one of the

sort of funny things in the book is how

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Levi keeps a surprising you and Making you

spill your food as he comes through the

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door yogurt soup everything.

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Yeah So Levi's the the bouncer client case

study who's big and scary and

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to provide a bit more context of what

we're talking about.

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One of the USPs of the book is that I

share with you my inner voices of the

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therapist.

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And there's 13 of them.

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I cannot even remember them.

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Yeah, there's, hold on, there's anxiety.

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So the anxiety, you know, the voice of

worry that's talking.

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I want you to imagine all these voices

around a thought table in your brain.

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The chair of the meeting is volition,

which is the voice that chooses the

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appropriate voice to go with.

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This applies not just in the therapy room,

but in life but you get volition is is the

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chair and then you've got anxious voice

who's worried and shouting over everyone

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biology what Josephine just referred to

particularly if you're a therapist who's

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desperately needs a wee and you're like

why Why did I drink two coffees and then

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let the client in what what am I doing?

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which leads to critic critics like

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why did you have two coffees like that?

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And then anxiety voice says, you know,

holding your wee in is bad for you.

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You're going to prostate's going to

explode and all that stuff.

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You've got the voice of detective.

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That's that voice that we all have as

therapists.

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We want to find out more and search for

meaning.

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Analytical voice, which is trying to use

counseling theory to pair up like, you

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know, here's this person's conditions of

worth or their schema, or this can add to

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the formulation.

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doing in CPT or whatever.

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You've got compassionate voice, which is

the voice what makes a great therapist,

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along with empathy voice.

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I'm getting through them here.

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I'm going to want to roll.

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I should have wrote them down.

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And you've got empathy voice.

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My favorite voice is irreverence.

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It's just when we get intrusive, weird

thoughts.

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:

I put that in the book.

359

:

Just like, why am I thinking about that

now?

360

:

It is quite funny though, is it?

361

:

Yeah, and I have a lot of people message

me like I'm so glad you included that I

362

:

thought I was being weird I wasn't being a

good enough counselor.

363

:

Yes, just got good enough counselor in

into the title of the podcast They've

364

:

literally said I'm not a good enough

counselor because I'm having these

365

:

thoughts like everyone gets those thoughts

You listen to volition though and what

366

:

gives you go with volition decide where to

put your attention because we're gonna get

367

:

those thoughts I get them in the therapy

room still I've I'm bad at many things in

368

:

life, but therapy is something I'm pretty

good at and

369

:

One of the best parts of being a good

therapist is realizing that, whoa, you're

370

:

going to have all these things and

thoughts going on in your head, but going

371

:

with volition and going with what feels

right at that moment for your client.

372

:

Because you haven't mentioned intuition.

373

:

I'm sort of interested in that you said

volition's in charge because often, I

374

:

don't know often, but when I was reading

it, I was sort of thinking quite often,

375

:

you go with that intuition, don't you?

376

:

Go with what intuition says.

377

:

Yeah, intuition.

378

:

Yeah, I forgot about that.

379

:

That's the one I forgot.

380

:

Thanks, Josephine.

381

:

Intuition, yeah, the nudge from the gut

where it just feels right and that happens

382

:

in the therapy room Sometimes, you know

not all the time, but there's sometimes

383

:

your intuition just says Against rhyme and

reason Why not try this, you know and I

384

:

think intuition often crops up as a result

of you know, good relational depth that

385

:

you have with a client and Yeah, it crops

up now and then in the book particularly

386

:

at poignant points

387

:

It's really interesting, because what came

up for me then was thinking about

388

:

sometimes when I've gone with my intuition

and I've got it wrong.

389

:

I can remember one particular occasion I

went to ask this question and I thought,

390

:

this is either going to be the most

amazing intervention ever, or it's going

391

:

to be a total disaster.

392

:

And it was the second, it was a total

disaster.

393

:

dear.

394

:

And I have become one of those therapists

where people say,

395

:

How could a therapist have ever said that?

396

:

And I look back on that and think, dear,

have you had anything where you look back

397

:

and you just think, my goodness.

398

:

it's happened to me, loads, all the time,

and it will.

399

:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just rolling

the dice and taking gambles every three

400

:

minutes with clients, but yeah, when you

get to a certain point, yeah, you're

401

:

right, it feels like this is either going

to make a breakthrough or go the other

402

:

way.

403

:

I can remember one particularly in my

personal life.

404

:

I was in personal therapy.

405

:

through lots of trauma myself, was afraid

to open up about it because I'm a six foot

406

:

two northern man and I just thought I'll

give it a go and I just splurged and told

407

:

her everything and was like this is what's

happened and it was you know and she kept

408

:

the space so beautifully and made me feel

safe and then I mean you couldn't have

409

:

summarized everything I'd splurged if you

tried and so she sat there after I

410

:

finished speaking.

411

:

tears down my face, anxious, feeling very

vulnerable.

412

:

And she just took a moment, contemplated

what I said, and she said, that sounds

413

:

really shit.

414

:

And it was a lovely thing to say.

415

:

Yeah, yeah.

416

:

I tried that three weeks later, and the

other person was like, why do you swear?

417

:

Whoops.

418

:

It's amazing, isn't it?

419

:

It just goes to show how it's like, it's

the moment, isn't it?

420

:

And it's that relationship, and yeah.

421

:

Yeah, I really liked how authentic it was

when she said it's just like, that sounds

422

:

really shit.

423

:

Yeah, because there's nothing, there's

nothing, you can, you know, you can fall

424

:

back on the old, it sounds like that

you've been through trauma.

425

:

Well, yeah, of course.

426

:

But it's just, I've got nothing to say,

but I'm going to say something and I'm

427

:

going to say the most authentic thing I

can.

428

:

And it worked, it was lovely.

429

:

There's just nothing like that empathy

when somebody really shows you that

430

:

compassion and empathy together.

431

:

It's just...

432

:

There's just nothing like it, is there?

433

:

No.

434

:

I think that's the heart of therapy to be

shown that.

435

:

Yeah.

436

:

No.

437

:

Yeah.

438

:

So someone actually asked, and this is

going back to sort of thinking about you'd

439

:

be quite well known.

440

:

I mean, obviously we had your reaction.

441

:

You sort of described how you reacted when

the door opened and this famous actress

442

:

suddenly appeared and said, hi, you know,

I think I'm a bit late for the

443

:

appointment.

444

:

And obviously there was that part of you

that was like, my God, this is someone

445

:

really famous.

446

:

Do you think you being well known has an

impact on, because obviously you must

447

:

attract, because you're well known, you

attract particular types of people, like

448

:

somebody who's famous, but also does it

interfere in any way, you being well

449

:

known, because people see such a lot of

you outside of therapy on Instagram and

450

:

that sort of stuff?

451

:

Well, in terms of how does it mean people

knowing who I am outside of this, how does

452

:

it affect the therapy here?

453

:

It's a really good question.

454

:

I think for me, this is where specializing

in a niche really helps.

455

:

So obviously I've not always been a

notable figure in our space, but when I,

456

:

cause I specialize in anxiety disorders,

who's openly discussed my own past with

457

:

anxiety disorders.

458

:

I think it can help people know who I am

because it cuts like there's a trust there

459

:

that's built.

460

:

Obviously you've got to build the trust in

the therapy room, but I think.

461

:

me being open and honest as a man as well.

462

:

When I see guys, it's like differs a bit

to seeing guys on my training where it

463

:

took a long while to establish the trust.

464

:

But here it's like, here's a guy who's

been vulnerable in public.

465

:

I feel more comfortable now to open up

because I know he has.

466

:

I found that particularly.

467

:

That's really interesting.

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

And not just with guys and people like

that.

470

:

On the f -

471

:

So that's lovely when people come and they

expect they know what kind of therapy I'm

472

:

they they kind of seen what I'm like my

personality Which I like to think I'm very

473

:

authentic in an outsider therapy room on

the flip side though is that if you are

474

:

Known on social media or people seen you

on TV or whatnot there's can be a tendency

475

:

to maybe Put someone who you've seen put a

lot of hope on that person to help fix you

476

:

or put you on some kind of pedestal and

that can actually...

477

:

Get in the way?

478

:

Yeah, get in the way, yeah.

479

:

Yeah, why haven't you fixed me yet?

480

:

You're supposed to be the best at this.

481

:

And I'm like, well, you know...

482

:

And coming back to that imposter syndrome

as well, how that must make you feel that

483

:

someone's coming in with a great deal of

expectation as well.

484

:

That this sort of sense of maybe pressure

to somehow measure up to people's

485

:

expectations.

486

:

I don't know if you feel that, if it makes

you anxious or...

487

:

Absolutely, yeah.

488

:

My Impost Syndrome really comes out when

I'm still struggling with claustrophobia

489

:

quite a bit.

490

:

I have sensory issues because of autism.

491

:

When I feel trapped or in a space where I

can't get out or whatever, I'm really

492

:

anxious and quite visibly.

493

:

And yeah, that might happen in public.

494

:

Someone might see me being anxious and

stuff.

495

:

I think I used to be like ashamed of that

and feel like a fraud, but now I'm like,

496

:

nah, you know, that's just my thing that

I'm dealing with.

497

:

And I say that to any other therapist who

struggles with anxiety.

498

:

If you struggle with panic attacks,

intrusive thoughts, OCD, I'm really into

499

:

reading about PMDD and the menopause and

perimenopause at the moment because it

500

:

overlaps with anxiety disorders quite a

lot.

501

:

That doesn't make you any less of a

therapist.

502

:

If anything, it gives you more empathy and

the ability to...

503

:

step more into the frame of reference of

your anxious clients.

504

:

And I've had to reframe that to myself.

505

:

Yeah, because I was going to say, I don't

know about what you were taught, but often

506

:

people are taught that if they've actually

experienced, they've got lived experience

507

:

of something, that that then gets in the

way of offering therapy.

508

:

So I think sometimes people shy away from

a niche and...

509

:

I help people with marketing their private

practices and I often find when I actually

510

:

talk to them and they talk about their

favourite clients who they've worked with,

511

:

it's usually someone who fits into that

space of something that they've actually

512

:

experienced themselves and yet we're

taught that this is something that gets in

513

:

the way.

514

:

Have you experienced, what's your sort of

thinking about that?

515

:

It can be a gift and a curse.

516

:

I think I've heard it can really help, but

it can also not.

517

:

So like, I...

518

:

I have the utmost respect for people who

specialize in grief.

519

:

I couldn't, I still work on my own grief.

520

:

I talk about it in the book a bit.

521

:

I imagine seeing five clients a day

talking about grief.

522

:

I couldn't do it.

523

:

I couldn't do it.

524

:

And if you're doing that, fair play.

525

:

Whereas I know people, know therapists who

have became grief specialists.

526

:

So working for crews, bereavement, people

like that.

527

:

because of their own grief, and I just sit

there, marvel.

528

:

I'm like, that's incredible, you know?

529

:

So it depends, like I've lived experience

for grief, but I would not be great at

530

:

specializing.

531

:

Don't get me wrong, grief comes up in the

therapy room as anything does, but you

532

:

know, when it's the specific focus of

therapy, like going to places like cruise

533

:

bereavement and things like that, that

probably wouldn't help me.

534

:

It just depends.

535

:

Also, if you're,

536

:

A therapist who is still learning or to

just face a therapist who hasn't got much

537

:

empathy, you might struggle to step into

the other person's frame of reference

538

:

because everything that they're talking

about is firmly planting you in your own

539

:

because you can relate to it and it brings

up so much power of and reminders.

540

:

So that's how it can also go against you.

541

:

So it depends.

542

:

Like I, when I work with people with OCD,

543

:

I know what it's like to have OCD, I'll

have it for the rest of my life, I manage

544

:

it very well, but when someone's talking

about it, it's really powerful, because

545

:

then it's almost like, yeah, and it sounds

like, and I imagine it's like this, and

546

:

they're like, my God, yeah, you've nailed

it.

547

:

I was like, yeah, I know, I've been there.

548

:

Yeah.

549

:

Yeah.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

I think that's part of it, sometimes it

gives you that almost like advanced

552

:

empathy, doesn't it?

553

:

Because you can almost imagine where

people are going with it.

554

:

You have to check it out with them,

because you don't know for sure, but often

555

:

you can.

556

:

you're pretty much sort of familiar with

where it might take them.

557

:

And I think it does give you that almost

fluidity in working with someone perhaps.

558

:

That's been my experience in terms of

working with what's been in my experience.

559

:

Yeah.

560

:

And I always, it depends what kind of

therapist you want to be, but I think a

561

:

niche is helpful, particularly from that

point of view.

562

:

And what made you decide on anxiety then?

563

:

Because obviously you didn't want to, you

know, grief wasn't a possibility.

564

:

Trauma informed was already taken, so I

did something.

565

:

Yeah.

566

:

No, no.

567

:

Just to put a little interjection in at

this point is that in one part of the

568

:

book, Josh describes the different

modalities and talks about the different

569

:

fashions and says he thinks the latest

fashion is going to be trauma informed.

570

:

But I have to say, with my finger on the

pulse, I think the latest fashion is IFS

571

:

actually.

572

:

I think it's internal family systems.

573

:

No, you're right.

574

:

You're so right.

575

:

It is internal.

576

:

And in the anxiety disorder world, it's

inference -based CBT, ICBT.

577

:

So those two will be the latest fashions

that we'll be seeing this summer.

578

:

So going back to sort of anxiety,

obviously trauma -informed was taken.

579

:

So go on, tell us about what made you

decide to become anxiety, Josh.

580

:

I donned the cape of anxiety, Josh,

because when I was younger, it was in my

581

:

young 20s, I was...

582

:

Diagnosed with three different anxiety

disorders very accurate anxiety disorders

583

:

as well So if anyone is part of the drop

the disordered brigade, you know listen up

584

:

because actually this saved my life I was

diagnosed with panic disorder with

585

:

agoraphobia obsessive compulsive disorder

and God generalize anxiety I was not very

586

:

well this happened after a nervous

breakdown.

587

:

I was looking after my terminally unwell

brother I just recently left uni with no

588

:

money

589

:

a weird cannabis addiction and broke up my

girlfriend, moved back in with my mom.

590

:

And then my younger brother, yeah, got

diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age

591

:

of 14 years old.

592

:

Then I went and got started a job at a

pupil referral unit, which won't surprise

593

:

you, it was quite a stressful job.

594

:

I love that job, but it was quite a

stressful job.

595

:

And one day in the morning, I still

remember the moment, I walked into the

596

:

staff room at the pupil referral unit.

597

:

or the Wednesday or something like that, I

don't know.

598

:

Made a cup of tea and I was stirring the

tea bag, dropped the spoon, made a louder

599

:

bang than usual and I just looked up and

everything looked weird.

600

:

I was like, my God, what have I done?

601

:

Like my whole reality looked different.

602

:

I now know that this was the start of

dissociation and a panic attack.

603

:

I had no idea what was going on then.

604

:

I wasn't really struggling with anxiety or

anything.

605

:

I was just really stressed and burnt out.

606

:

being a carer in a job.

607

:

So I had no idea.

608

:

I felt like I wasn't in my own body.

609

:

People's faces looked like clay.

610

:

I was really scared.

611

:

Really freaked you out, I should think.

612

:

It really did.

613

:

I went home and mum picked me up.

614

:

I didn't leave the house for six months.

615

:

That's the agoraphobia.

616

:

Also OCD because I was ruminating and

trying to fix myself.

617

:

Became very unwell.

618

:

And then I discovered the works of one of

my heroes, Dr.

619

:

Claire Weeks, who is an Australian

psychologist.

620

:

I think she died in like the eighties or

something.

621

:

She said,

622

:

hero and she wrote a book about basically

anxiety disorders and what they look like

623

:

and I was like this is what anxiety is

I've never really used the word anxiety

624

:

until I actually read about what it was

then I found some other books as well read

625

:

one by Paul David and this was like 12

years ago so I said no like social media

626

:

or anything like that I was just doing all

these things the best I can trawling

627

:

forums frightening myself from forums

until I found

628

:

the psycho education where someone was

telling me what was up with me and that

629

:

started my recovery.

630

:

I was like, I'm not going bananas and this

is a thing that happens.

631

:

And yeah, I was a teacher at the time, I

loved teaching, but there was no

632

:

information for me and I was very lucky

actually that I stumbled across this

633

:

information because my doctors didn't

help.

634

:

So I was a teacher, that was it.

635

:

And then I thought, how can I combine my

love for teaching with...

636

:

how passionate I am that I was not

educated about this.

637

:

So I just started to be a therapist and

that's how it started.

638

:

That's how anxiety Josh started.

639

:

Actually anxiety Josh, the name started at

the beginning of COVID where my friend

640

:

says, are you on social media?

641

:

I was like, no.

642

:

He's like, you should do an Instagram.

643

:

Now's a good time.

644

:

I was like, why?

645

:

He's like, cause everyone's going to lose

their minds cause we're going into

646

:

quarantine.

647

:

I was like, okay.

648

:

And so I just started doing videos,

reassuring videos about anxiety, what it

649

:

looks like, agoraphobia.

650

:

how it's exacerbated and it went from

there.

651

:

I was going to say it must have really

taken off though for you to have built up

652

:

this massive following in quite a short

time really because it's only sort of four

653

:

years really since the start of COVID.

654

:

And has it all sort of been videos?

655

:

What sort of things do you do to get

people to follow you?

656

:

Videos, I do some carousel posts with

little nuggets of information.

657

:

You can slide across and absorb them.

658

:

I use humour a lot in my social media.

659

:

I like people to feel seen.

660

:

Yeah, that's what I wanted to do.

661

:

I think the majority, we can't speak for

everyone, but the majority of people when

662

:

they see that and know that I'm someone

who's been through it and are making a

663

:

laugh and a joke about it and getting on

my life, I think for a lot of people

664

:

that's very assuring and it gives them

hope and that's why I like to be.

665

:

I love Brené Brown and I think this is

sort of like the point that Brené makes is

666

:

that when you're vulnerable, when you're

prepared to be vulnerable, that is such

667

:

a...

668

:

rate leveler, isn't it?

669

:

And this is what really helps us to make

connection with each other, is when we're

670

:

prepared to be vulnerable, when we're

prepared to open up, it enables other

671

:

people to be vulnerable.

672

:

I mean, Rogers would have said it's

congruence, you know, deep, deep

673

:

congruence begets more congruence, which

begets more congruence.

674

:

But I think Brene's brought it up to date

and talks about vulnerability.

675

:

And I think this is often what's missing

in this whole celebrity culture, isn't it?

676

:

Is that people, especially on Instagram,

aren't particularly vulnerable.

677

:

And...

678

:

you're actually breaking through that

mould in order to help people be real,

679

:

aren't you?

680

:

Yeah, being authentically vulnerable.

681

:

I think there is a trend at the moment on

social media with people recording

682

:

themselves crying in their cars.

683

:

yeah, yeah.

684

:

Yeah, that's not quite what I'm talking

about.

685

:

Why did she break up with me?

686

:

But yeah, in general it's...

687

:

yeah, thanks.

688

:

I'm trying.

689

:

I used to be really socially anxious.

690

:

I was never really that.

691

:

I think for me, I just, something just

clicked.

692

:

I lost my brother and lost my dad and lost

my grandma in the space several years.

693

:

The anxiety disorder, everything like

that.

694

:

And I think when I lost them, I was like,

it just doesn't really matter what people

695

:

think.

696

:

I care what people think.

697

:

If I care, it's gonna sound really bad.

698

:

I care what people think when I.

699

:

really value and respect them.

700

:

So like I was at a conference the other

day and no, this last year actually, I

701

:

think David Veal was there and some

people, well respected people and I was

702

:

like, now I suddenly really care what

people think.

703

:

But general day to day stuff, like I

don't, you know, I've just put my

704

:

authentic self out there and in the age of

social media, you're just a drop in the

705

:

ocean.

706

:

You know, you're not, you're not doing.

707

:

Parkinson live on a Saturday night where

everyone's watching you, you're just

708

:

someone else, scrolls past, and if you

catch their eye for a bit, that's great.

709

:

I think that's a really reassuring thing,

and I'd really love my listeners to hear

710

:

that, because one of the things that

therapists really, really worry about, the

711

:

ones that I work with, because obviously I

work with a lot of people who don't feel

712

:

very confident, don't feel good enough, is

they're so worried about what people will

713

:

think.

714

:

And to a certain extent, I think what

you've said is...

715

:

You're just a drop in the ocean and people

just scroll past, people don't really even

716

:

notice half the time, do they?

717

:

No, everyone's just focused on themselves

and I don't mean that in a bad way.

718

:

Just like I think everyone's default mode

network is to kind of go in and consider

719

:

what they need, you know, whether it's

basic needs or whatever or daydreaming or

720

:

whatever.

721

:

But of course, I saw people with imposter

syndrome, social anxiety, things like

722

:

that, where our foreign response has been

conditioned usually when we're younger by

723

:

unreasonable...

724

:

households or being bullied or being an

abusive relationship when that foreign

725

:

response is conditioned of course it's

going to fire off when you're walking

726

:

through Tesco or if you slightly do

something brave and do some you know or do

727

:

something incredibly brave and do some

public speaking and put yourself out there

728

:

your foreign response is going to think

just warned you and suggest you to you

729

:

what if all these people like those

unreasonable people no they don't know you

730

:

it's okay you're all right one of them

might be a knob but

731

:

the vast majority won't be and actually I

found that most people have empathy.

732

:

Yes.

733

:

Really is.

734

:

So I've got so much going through my head.

735

:

I'm trying to think.

736

:

Because one of the things I wondered

actually, as you mentioned about autism as

737

:

well, I sort of do wonder sometimes

whether, because often we just say things

738

:

as they are.

739

:

And I think sometimes that can actually

help us on social media and that, you

740

:

know, we'll just, well, this is how it is.

741

:

It just depends on, obviously it's a huge.

742

:

Neurodiverse spectrum some people are you

know on one on one end will have you know

743

:

active mutism where they just want to

anything and others do mine was different

744

:

mine just more I just became more

confident after actually going to therapy

745

:

and working on my stuff and challenging my

identity and the unhelpful parts of my

746

:

identity and I just got a bit more

confident with that and trying to for over

747

:

the last year focusing more on what

748

:

the good things people say to you.

749

:

Whereas opposed to how's that guy, you

know, have a hundred people, a hundred

750

:

people in a room clapping and then one

person isn't and you spend all weekend

751

:

like, why didn't that one person clap?

752

:

What did I do?

753

:

Or same with book reviews, you know,

thankfully I had some amazing reviews from

754

:

How's That Make You Feel, like

overwhelmingly positive reviews.

755

:

And like any book, you know, you're going

to get people that don't like it.

756

:

From my previous books, I used to...

757

:

worrying that why did that person not like

me as opposed to focusing on the 99 %

758

:

people that really enjoyed it.

759

:

What's changed for me is actually focusing

on the positives, actively focusing on the

760

:

positives and really trying to and making

it a habit and never going on Goodreads

761

:

and that's what's happened.

762

:

Here's a 5 ,000 word essay on why I didn't

like this person's book.

763

:

And yeah, because I don't think that helps

really, does it?

764

:

And there's something about letting go of

it, isn't there, once it's out there,

765

:

that, you know, you focus on the sort of

creating, and once it's created, you

766

:

actually haven't got any control over how

it's going to be received, have you?

767

:

No.

768

:

Just go, I just read it over and over

again.

769

:

I thought, I'm happy with that.

770

:

Do you know what's really surprised me,

actually, Josephine, is that I thought the

771

:

book wouldn't go down well with

therapists.

772

:

and the opposite's happened and I thought

it would be a book popular amongst maybe

773

:

the general public and then therapists

turn around and go, this is heresy, what

774

:

are you doing?

775

:

And I didn't want them to think that.

776

:

I've not written it purposely

controversial.

777

:

I just wanted to show some rawness and

realness and actually the support from

778

:

pretty much every therapist I've spoken to

has been wonderful.

779

:

But even for the therapists that probably

don't like it, they've been respectful

780

:

enough to...

781

:

I'll tell him.

782

:

Well I think it is that rawness and

realness and it's a bit like lifting the

783

:

curtain at the end of The Wizard of Oz.

784

:

You know, you sort of see who's this

magician behind the screen, who's the

785

:

wizard and it's actually just someone

sitting on a chair behind the curtain.

786

:

I use that analogy a lot for OCD.

787

:

It's a good one, isn't it?

788

:

It's like, it's big and scary and then you

look behind and it's like, it's just that.

789

:

That's all you are.

790

:

Yeah.

791

:

So I guess,

792

:

I mean, this is a very personal question

and someone's sort of asked, you know, how

793

:

are you getting on without your brother?

794

:

And I was wondering, you know, towards the

end of the book, when you talk about, you

795

:

go for your interview with the, to go on

your, I guess your counseling psychology

796

:

masters and your intuition is about

talking about your brother as to why you

797

:

decided to go into therapy.

798

:

And I suppose when I read that, I sort of

was wondering is...

799

:

And because you have been very successful,

you have published books, you have got

800

:

hopefully a thriving practice now you've

got all these followers, I hope that's the

801

:

case, I'm making an assumption there.

802

:

But do you think it's, I guess I suppose

having listened to you, is it your

803

:

brother's death that motivated you or is

it more that whole what you've just

804

:

described about your anxiety and wanting

to reach out to people in that sense?

805

:

Yeah, I think losing my brother is a big

motivator.

806

:

I think it's one of the sides of grief

that drives me.

807

:

I think I was very, I wasn't actually very

ambitious when my brother was around.

808

:

I was quite content.

809

:

I was, my ambition was to be a teacher and

chill out and that'd be great, you know?

810

:

And I was really excited to have that.

811

:

I think when I lost Harry, I think it was

something part of me died with it.

812

:

And I think what I've done and revealed in

my own therapy is that,

813

:

I try to fill that void by trying to push

and drive myself as much as I can and

814

:

actually make my existence more worthwhile

to me, probably because of a survivor, you

815

:

know, a lingering survivor guilt and just

want to do something quite, quite special.

816

:

You know, all my loved ones tell me that I

need to slow down and stop and do these

817

:

things that I've already achieved that.

818

:

But I think losing my brother, I think.

819

:

And I'm still in therapy, I love therapy,

but like I've uncovered that actually, you

820

:

know, there's, I try to fill some of the

void by trying to be extraordinary.

821

:

And part of my homework in therapy is to

not be, is to realize it's okay just being

822

:

ordinary.

823

:

But yeah, I think the manner in which I

lost him as well, which is very harrowing.

824

:

Yeah, I don't know.

825

:

I try to keep him with me as close as I

can.

826

:

I'm not a spiritual or religious person,

so I...

827

:

I don't see him in glimmering in the trees

and I don't hear him talking to me.

828

:

But I would like to see sometimes that

since his illness and since his passing

829

:

and what I've done and this wouldn't have

happened if he hadn't have passed away or

830

:

become ill, I'd like sometimes to imagine

that I see him in the crevices of people's

831

:

smiles when they're doing really well in

their anxiety therapy, when they've done

832

:

something really brave.

833

:

I think, well, that...

834

:

there's something in that, isn't there?

835

:

I think it's, I really identify with what

you're saying about this drive and it can

836

:

be very intense, can't it, to want to work

and want to, you know, and it's fun as

837

:

well.

838

:

I mean, it's, I think it's fun to write,

it's fun to create, it's fun to be out

839

:

there on social media and do that sort of

stuff, but it can be difficult to hold it

840

:

back sometimes, I think.

841

:

Yeah.

842

:

I've got more into my mindfulness

recently.

843

:

That was a trend, a fashion, wasn't it?

844

:

I've got into my mindfulness recently

because I think when you are driven and

845

:

you are, and I've got very obsessive,

fixating tendencies.

846

:

Wow, how did I develop OCD?

847

:

Sometimes when you're so driven and you're

so chaste, and this applies to anyone

848

:

though, if you're chasing a feeling of

trying to feel enough,

849

:

to try to satisfy that inner satiation of

trying to feel enough.

850

:

You miss the world going by now and then.

851

:

And I'm guilty of that right now, at the

moment of this.

852

:

And I think I need to try to be in touch

with that.

853

:

The voices in the book, inner critics,

sometimes that can become the loudest

854

:

voice at the table.

855

:

I think you need to get in touch with

religion and be like, why don't we listen

856

:

to kind of compassion for a bit now

because...

857

:

You know, we don't want to get rid of

critic and can be quite helpful.

858

:

Like last week, like 1 a you've not put

the bins out, you know, fine, get up and

859

:

put the bins out at 1 a But in general,

yeah, I mean, don't fall into that

860

:

consuming drive to constantly better

yourself.

861

:

And you know you're this person when

you're the person that has a to do list

862

:

that's never ending.

863

:

You're always saying I should, which is an

anxious thought.

864

:

I should be doing this, should be doing

that, should be doing that.

865

:

No, just stop.

866

:

Like you should be not shoulding.

867

:

Put I shouldn't be shoulding at the top of

your should list and then worry about how

868

:

matter and weird that's become.

869

:

Yeah.

870

:

Yeah.

871

:

Thank you.

872

:

I was sort of aware that the time has gone

by so, so quickly.

873

:

I guess cause you know, one of the sort of

questions that somebody asked cover is how

874

:

do you manage to be so articulate with

your psycho education?

875

:

Do you think that's your teaching

background that's, that's coming in there?

876

:

Definitely.

877

:

And,

878

:

I used to teach year fours, so eight to

nine year olds.

879

:

So if you enjoyed the book, you have the

reading age of an eight to nine year old.

880

:

I did enjoy it.

881

:

I read it on Audible.

882

:

I listened to you on Audible.

883

:

You've got a lovely speaking voice.

884

:

I think you come across very well on

Audible.

885

:

Thank you.

886

:

Yeah, no, it's always been something I was

good at.

887

:

Terrible at admin as a teacher.

888

:

Terrible at admin now.

889

:

Terrible at notes.

890

:

terrible at lesson plans, all right at

studying, good at essay writing, slow at

891

:

essay writing, but they're usually good

essays, but they take me forever.

892

:

But one of my favorite things I like about

myself, that's a sentence I've been

893

:

working on, did not really mean anything

several years ago.

894

:

My favorite thing I like about myself is

the ability to take loads of boring

895

:

information and present it as something

engaging and entertaining if need to be.

896

:

And that really helps, I should think,

with your...

897

:

I mean with sexual media and with...

898

:

Working with clients and writing the book

as well.

899

:

Yeah.

900

:

Thank you.

901

:

thank you so much for coming along I'm

just aware that I don't want to keep you

902

:

for ages Yeah, thank you so much.

903

:

I mean there's lots of people have sort of

written lots of questions I think we've

904

:

covered quite a few of them and so I just

want to say thank you so much for coming

905

:

on the show and obviously people will be

really interested to to hear all about you

906

:

and What's the next thing so I shouldn't

really say that we as we've just been?

907

:

talking about slowing down but have you

got I think you might have another book in

908

:

the offing yeah so the publisher really

liked the book thank by the way thank you

909

:

for having me on I really appreciate it

it's really nice to talk to other

910

:

therapists as well really is it's nice

yeah the publisher liked a book they want

911

:

a second one I probably can do a similar

format I might keep the voices and just do

912

:

four different yeah another four

characters and talk about other subjects

913

:

that perhaps need to be spoken about

914

:

with more antics of my personal life,

which you will find in How Does That Make

915

:

You Feel.

916

:

Yeah, dude, I'm still lucky doing some

promotional stuff for this book, so I'm at

917

:

the Bath Literary Festival this year, so

if you're in Bath, come say hello or throw

918

:

fruit at me.

919

:

I don't mind.

920

:

I need my five a day.

921

:

We did have someone who said there's any

chance you're coming over to Tenerife

922

:

because I live in Tenerife.

923

:

So if you could find a book festival

that's happening in Tenerife, I know that

924

:

one of our members would be very happy.

925

:

Yeah, I'll try and wrangle that with the

public.

926

:

They really want this over in Tenerife,

you know, pay for it for me.

927

:

Yeah, so yeah, just doing little things

like that and yeah, I've started to think

928

:

of the next book.

929

:

Nothing, nothing, nothing, no pen to paper

yet.

930

:

Yeah, just still going with this one and

reopening my practice more.

931

:

I've only seen a couple of clients now,

but I'm going to see a few more and

932

:

that'll be nice.

933

:

Yeah, I was going to say it must be

balancing all these different things.

934

:

Have you found that you're doing fewer and

fewer clients as you get more and more of

935

:

this sort of work?

936

:

Yeah, I've only seen two clients in the

last few months.

937

:

Obviously, it's not fair to keep a client

caseload when you are jumping around doing

938

:

times interviews and whatever.

939

:

It's not fair.

940

:

on them, but the two clients I do are very

flexible and there's an understanding

941

:

there which I really appreciate.

942

:

Yeah, definitely, definitely gonna do some

more client work, probably a bit later in

943

:

the year.

944

:

I hit Burnout not so long ago and I'm just

coming out of that.

945

:

Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm doing more of that

being in the world a bit as opposed to

946

:

that drive stuff.

947

:

And yeah, and then crack on.

948

:

And then write the second book and

completely forget all the advice that I

949

:

gave myself.

950

:

thanks so much for coming on.

951

:

Thank you.

952

:

It's been absolutely brilliant to meet you

and So so great to get to know you a bit

953

:

better.

954

:

So thank you for coming on and thank you

for the book I really enjoyed it and I

955

:

know that so many other therapists have

enjoyed it too because it just is like I

956

:

said, it's Picking let's letting people

see really but what's behind the curtain

957

:

and that's reassuring to you.

958

:

If you think you're doing a bad job read

this

959

:

Thanks so much anyway.

960

:

Thank you.

961

:

Thanks for listening.

962

:

Do come and join my Facebook community,

Good Enough Counselors.

963

:

And for more information about how I can

help you develop your private practice,

964

:

please visit my website, JosephineHughes

.com.

965

:

If you found this episode helpful, I'd

love it if you could share it with a

966

:

fellow therapist or leave a review on your

podcast app.

967

:

And in closing,

968

:

I'd love to remind you that every single

step you make gets you closer to your

969

:

dream.

970

:

I really believe you can do it.

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