True friendships don’t just cheer us on, they help us see what we can’t see in ourselves.

This week on the podcast we’re talking about how to speak truth in love and why it’s worth the risk to make friends who will show you your blind spots. As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. It can be a confusing sentiment, but when you understand it, the wisdom is gold. To help us make sense of Proverbs 27:17, we’ve invited pastor Brian Behrends to have a conversation on how to have and receive truthful words that, while they may hurt a little, sharpen us to be better tools for God.

The podcast takes a deep dive into the dynamics of friendships and the power of vulnerability. Brian and Willow explore the idea that faithful wounds from friends can lead to greater personal growth. They discuss how opening up to feedback can feel scary, but it's essential for our development. It’s like taking a hike—you might stumble and fall, but with the right company, you find yourself enjoying the journey and discovering amazing viewpoints along the way! They talk about their own experiences with painful yet necessary conversations, illustrating how these moments can lead to deeper connections. The episode is peppered with humor and warmth, making it relatable and uplifting, as both hosts encourage listeners to embrace the messiness of relationships and lean into the discomfort of being sharpened by those who care.

Takeaways:

• We need to invite friends into our lives to help us see our blind spots.
• Sharpening each other can be painful, but it leads to growth and deeper connections.
• Jesus showed us how to speak truth with love by meeting people where they are.
• The process of being sharpened is about revealing our true selves, not just adding to who we are.

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Man, are you looking for people? Are you inviting people into that space to say, would you for the love of God, show me my blind spots?

Because I, too, want to be sharp and I, too want what's. What God created me for to become true in my life and through me.

Welcome to the We Collide Podcast. We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are, so that's what you'll find here, walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the same. We can't wait to collide with.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast. I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide. And today we get a hangout with Brian Behrens.

And Brian is one of those guys who's a best friend to everyone. And I say that in a everyone wants to be his best friend kind of a way.

And I actually think that Brian, because you make people feel like you're just instantly their friend. Brian has this way of caring deeply for people, walking alongside them and engaging who they are.

He has the biggest smile in Washington state, I swear, and his warmth fills the room. And I have watched this man grow into his ministry life, and I can honestly say that he leads with a stunning humility that can only come from Jesus.

And when he teaches, people listen. And they listen to Brian because he practices what he preaches. He shares gospel stories in a way that resonate with your story and mine.

He invites us all into the story of God in real and authentic ways that make people laugh and think deeply. He has amazing insight, and he asks great questions. So I'm actually going to have you interview me today, Brian.

But he spent six years of his vocational life working for an amazing young adult ministry here in the PNW called Ecclesia. And now he serves as a creative pastor at CTK Church in Bellingham, Washington.

And he's married to, of course, Kristen, who's on staff at Collide, who's an amazing human. And you guys just had your first baby, Brooklyn.

Also the best.

Glad that made it in.

Still devastated, apparently, that Wendy's no longer serves spicy chicken nuggets.

Very true.

I had no idea they served those.

Oh, yeah.

Brian Behrens has been to every continent Except Antarctica. And today he's in our orbit. So, Brian, thanks for hopping on the Collide podcast.

Oh, my gosh, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's awesome. I asked you to jump into this summer podcast series on the Proverbs because I love how you think awesome.

And I figured that we could have a great conversation, wrestling to find some wisdom for our lives. And so I'm going to read the proverb with everyone that we're going to chat about today.

Because I just assumed that I knew what it meant. And I came to learn that the Hebrew translation of this suggests that one sharpens the face of his friend.

And I was like, I'm not sure I want my face to be sharpened. But what do you think this word sharpens mean? Means? Like, can you give it other words for us to kind of grasp?

Yeah, no, I think this is a really interesting proverb. And sharpens. I mean, that's such an interesting word to use. That does not sound like something that I would want with. With my person as well.

That sounds very painful. But I think it really means giving different perspective. I think it means preparing us. I think it means.

I mean, I don't know what they're sharpening for. Hopefully sharpening a tool for use.

And so it's allowing us to be prepared by one another for that which God is yet to bring into our story and to allow us to do things that we couldn't before.

I love that. Preparing us for our use. That's a pretty cool idea. It seems like it's suggesting that we have this great influence on each other that we can. Yes.

Prepare each other for use or shape or guide or refine or transform each other. And I started thinking about that idea of influence.

What do you think is scary about how much influence we can have on each other, but what's also super cool about it?

Yeah, I think that people could be potentially freaked out by that because they don't want to. I think there's this thing, this Christian humility that happens.

And a lot of times, people, they want to acknowledge what God's done, but they don't want to acknowledge the way that God's actually used them. And so a lot of times, I think we don't want to insert whatever it is that we have in somebody's story because we want to allow God to do it.

But God's actually inviting us to be a partner in it. And so I do think a part of it is we don't want to mess people up if we have this sense that we're kind of messed up.

We don't feel like we have the capacity to help others if we still have areas in our own lives where we can't even help ourselves. So I think that's a piece of it.

But I think it's really incredible because it does show that God doesn't just want us to be kind of puppets or things that are just kind of along for the ride.

He wants us to partner with him, and he wants to actually use us, use our insight, use our relational equity that we have with people, and actually be partners with him as we actually prepare people for the work that God created them for as well.

Tell me a little bit more about that word, that phrase, relational equity.

I mean, I think that that's a really important piece when it comes to the sharpening. We'll probably get into it a little bit later, but I know that when it comes to being able to sharpen one another as opposed to.

Well, I think the interesting thing, when I think about iron sharpens iron, that also means that it can dull itself as well. So it can sharpen, it can also dull. It can shape in all sorts of ways. And so it can make it either more useful or less useful, depending on.

Depending on what that actually entails and the relationship that exists underneath it. That's the foundation for that shaping and that molding.

But, yeah, I think relational equity is so important when we're receiving feedback, when we're trying to call out what we see in people and what the ways that we see God even preparing them.

I think that there needs to be a foundation, a relationship under it, or it becomes really intricate and difficult to kind of navigate what that process looks like.

That's a good word. How do I know if I have relational equity in someone's life?

You know, I was thinking about this, and it's.

It's hard because, honestly, I think there's this circle that happens because you need relational equity to actually engage in the process of sharpening one another. But it's also the process of sharpening one another that creates the equity. And so there's this both.

And I think a lot of times historically for me, I've probably erred on the side of assuming that I didn't have the relational equity that I actually did have. And so out of fear of not having that relational Equity.

I probably pulled some punches that I should have actually gone for and left something on the table because I was afraid that I didn't have that equity. So I think I appreciate people that almost assume that relational equity. And that's something that I try and do.

I try to assume best and assume that I have connection and I have the potential to actually speak into people's lives. And then sometimes that assumption actually can either be awkward or it can be helpful.

You know, like some people is like, oh, you know, maybe we're not there yet. But I think a lot of times people are looking for that. I think people are eager for, for at least the outcome. I don't know about the process.

It's a hard process, but people definitely want to be sharp and want to be useful, want to be used. So yeah, I think people are hungry.

For it as you're talking about relational equity and this kind of. And we'll talk more, more about it as we kind of dive into this more. But there's this awkwardness of do I have the relational equity?

Am I someone who should be speaking into their lives? Maybe I'm not. Maybe I am. Maybe, you know, and I dated this guy in college, super like, oh geez, great guy cleaning into the mic, make sure he hears.

He's a great guy, love the Lord, fashion. But like really cheesy illustrations. But he had this thing that he would say to people.

I think really it was wise that if he wasn't sure if they wanted to hear what he had to say, he would ask, do I have permission to step on board of your life? And I think sometimes we're in that in between place of like there's certain people we know, we have relational equity, right?

There's other people we know we don't, but those kind of like I'm not sure, kind of asking permission, like do I have permission to step on board and speak into your life?

Oh yeah.

Can be kind of helpful in those, in those relationships where you're unsure, you know. Matthew Henry, the commentator says men are filed, made smooth and bright and fit for business who are rough and dull and inactive by conversation.

Let's talk about the power of conversation. When you think about all the work that you've done for years in young adults lives, what have you seen happens in the power of a conversation?

That's a great question. I mean I think conversation is the medium that we have to connect and so, or one of the mediums, I guess just shared activity.

There doesn't always need to be an Underlying, filling the space with words or anything like that. But I think we're able to connect in ways. We can find things that are commonalities. We can really share stories through our conversations.

I think that's the most powerful thing that we can do is in the sharing of the stories and realizing that even somebody who might seem so different and so, so distant from, from us and our origin and from what we've experienced, there's always going to be commonalities. There's always going to be places for connection if we're looking for them.

And so I think that that's one of the most powerful things that we can do is allow our conversations to be mediums for us to explore and find the places where we are connected. And even, like, since Collide is all centered on Jesus and colliding with Jesus, I think that that's the ultimate.

No matter what your story is, we're all brothers and sisters. And so that's like one of the most empowering, beautiful things about conversation.

As Christians and as people who have given our lives to Christ, it doesn't matter how different our stories are.

We all have this beautiful commonality that's greater than any difference that we might have, and that's the evidence of the power of Christ, is that even if our stories, our politics, our, you name it, is different. Like, that sits above, and that is hopefully the container that can hold all that differences and, and the holding together of.

Of all that crazy difference is, Is to me, evidence of God's goodness and his unifying presence.

So, yeah, I love the idea that Jesus can sit above that and is the container that can hold all.

He has to. He has to.

Yeah, we have to let him, no doubt, right?

Oh, we, we love, we love getting in under it.

But like, anytime we do that, we focus on the division as opposed to the unifying fact that God sent his son for all of us, for each of us, for each difference, for each shortcoming. That's the great equalizer. You know, it doesn't matter what your story has been or will be like. That's the thing that I think sits above everything.

And that's so beautiful.

So when you think about your life, like, go and look back over the course of your life, can you remember pivotal conversations that you had with people who loved you, who in a sense asked permission or had permission to step on board in your life and speak into your life and sharpen you in ways that ultimately change your trajectory or the decision, you know, the decisions you made on the path of Your trajectory. Are there any that stick out in your mind?

I think like the type of people I typically get in these conversations with, and I'm so thankful for them. So I'm. I'm@enneagram9, which is a peacemaker. So it's kind of funny that I get to come in and talk about sharpening one another.

And it kind of happens.

I mean, there's sparks, there's conflict, and so a lot of it happens through disagreements and through working through those disagreements in a beautiful way. But I'm naturally actually a peacemaker. So I'm looking for the commonality.

I'm looking for what we can agree on as opposed to what it takes a little bit more energy for me to actually go after some of that tension, some of that spark. And so the people that I have learned to just absolutely love and appreciate are people who go after that for me a lot of times.

And they're the ones who have the boldness to actually step into it, to assume that relational equity. They tend to be eights, which are challengers. Some of my closest friends are actually eights. And they have no issue just starting that conversation.

And as soon as I'm in it, like, it's this thing that I just appreciate so much. And so I think it's. Yeah, it's a type of person who's just willing to go there even if that's not the place that you naturally gravitate towards.

Mm, yeah.

That's awesome. I love that God puts those people in our lives.

For sure.

It might not feel fun at the time, but you can look back and be grateful for it.

No doubt. Hindsight is wonderful.

Yeah.

So did you ever dislike the conversations as they were happening and what does that look like now to look back on those and realize those were really helpful, even though you might not have liked them?

Oh yeah. I mean, I rarely like them in the moment. I mean, unless I'm actually like looking to be sharpened.

Like if I'm proactive in like reaching out and wanting that type of feedback, that's a different level of conversation. But if somebody's bringing it to me, that's a different story. But I'm trying to think of a specific instance.

But yeah, typically in the moment it takes me a while just to process and somebody hopefully comes in with a good heart and offers me something that I can learn from. And it typically takes me a little bit to process it. So usually it's kind of a two tiered approach.

It's not a one off where we conquer the whole thing at once.

Sometimes it's an initial conversation and then the sharpening process happens after the conversation where you get to actually digest the little nuggets of truth that are in there and then hopefully circle back around to it and actually be in a place where you're ready to engage with it a little bit more. Admit some of the spots where maybe you didn't have the courage or even the perspective to see in the moment and hopefully learn and grow from it.

So to me, that's one thing. It doesn't always have to happen in one conversation either.

Sometimes, even if it doesn't seem like it went well, that's exactly what needed to happen.

So that that person, or for me personally, I can actually take it away and I can wrestle with it and hopefully see the heart and assume that that person wants what's best for me and wants, wants to sharpen me as opposed to dull me and actually give me something to think about and really wrestle with.

That's such an important key. And it ties back into the relational equity aspect of it.

When you have relationship with someone and they come to you and they're suggesting that they see something in you, or they're encouraging something, or they're giving you feedback and you don't necessarily like it, or it catches you by surprise, what I have found. Because I don't, I don't love it. And I. I'm probably not innate.

Yeah.

I haven't taken the enneagram. I probably need to. But I don't always love those conversations. And then I have to go back to the place of.

I always say, go back to the heart of who this person is.

Right.

And I hope when I enter into someone's life and I'm speaking into their life and they might not like what I have to say say, but I feel like something I'm called to say because it's going to sharpen them.

Right.

I hope they go back and remember my heart.

When things get confusing or there's misunderstandings, I think we have to kind of say to ourselves, go back to the heart of what I know to be true about this person.

Right.

And not. Don't start making all these assumptions and hypotheticals about, oh, they're judging me and they're this and that.

But really, like, think about the history you have with this person and how they care about you.

Yep.

Which seems so important.

For sure.

When you're walking away from a conversation, you're like, I didn't love that.

Oh, for sure.

Or it can even happen in the context of really close relationships where you can't even walk away, you know, sometimes those are the relationships that you have with the spouse, you know, and, like, it's beautiful and it's in the right heart, but the shields go up, and I don't know, like, our house isn't that big, so we can't get that far away from each other. But I think that that's a blessing sometimes, too, because it forces us back together to.

To actually resolve and to hopefully wrestle a little bit more and understand the heart behind it and hopefully learn and grow and be sharpened.

Yeah.

Be prepared.

Yeah. I am laughing because I'm having a memory of just in the last week with my teenage son who we kind of got into it about something.

I don't remember now what it was.

You never do. Right.

But he. You know, I realized that it was going to be a long go at it, and it was late at night where we weren't going to see eye to eye.

And I was so exhausted, I finally went to bed, and he walks in and he's like, you can't go cold on me like that. And I was like, what? I'm so tired. I don't want to keep arguing and to try to find the same page on this. Like, let's talk tomorrow.

But, like, he couldn't see his side of what he had done, and both Rob and I could.

And we were trying to present it and lay it on the table and invite him into seeing how he was treating people, and he couldn't see it, and he was mad that I didn't want to talk about it. And then I had to apologize because I was like, you're right, buddy. Like, the Bible says, don't let your son go.

Like, the sun go down on your anger, and I just want to go to sleep. But 24 hours later, like, we were able to go back to the heart of each other and really understand and listen to each other.

But, yeah, when you're in the same house as someone, well, I love the.

Heart of that passage, but sometimes, honestly, I feel like it takes us. Like, it turns us into a prisoner. We need to actually nail this right now.

And to me, the most loving thing to do, hopefully, the heart of that is don't allow time to lapse. Like, don't allow space to be created and don't allow. Allow a wedge into this relationship because of this conversation.

But to me, like, hopefully, like.

Because sometimes the worst thing I can do is just continue to just rehash and hash and, like, turns into 4am and then I'm not going to get any nicer, you know.

That's so true. God doesn't even want to be with me.

I can try again, but it's going to be worse. 100%.

Said before. Oh well, my, my 17 year old is so right though. The whole why you got to, you know, you can't be cold on me like that.

What I should have done, the healthy thing probably should have been to say, hey buddy, I want to understand where you're coming from. I want you to understand where I'm coming from. Yeah, I'm so tired. Can we think about it, rest on it, talk about it tomorrow?

But a lot of times that whole don't let the sun go down on your anger is like you just go to bed angry.

Don't say that sort of healthy statement to let the other person know, like, hey, this maybe didn't go the way we wanted it to go, but let's revisit it tomorrow.

I'm for you. With you, our relationship is more important than this moment. Yeah, but let's, for the love of God, get a little rest before we.

Go out of the no loser mom in bed. My 17 year old had to sharpen me while I was asleep.

Anyways, this ancient wisdom though suggests a man makes man a better version of himself or a woman or humanity. And I love that. And I know that we all want to be better versions of ourselves. I know that's true about us. Why do you think we desire that?

And yet we don't often desire the experience of having to be sharpened to get there.

Oh, because it sucks. It's painful. Like people talk about it like it's just going to be this, this process that we actually get to enjoy.

Oh, I'm going to be sharp and that's going to be so wonderful. Get to see the fruit of it.

But honestly, we're, I think about this idea of process quite a bit because I think our culture, especially with, with social media, not to make it a bigger conversation, but I feel like we have a propensity to push forward the end product without actually glorifying or actually casting a light on the process. And so we love and we glorify the end product, but we never actually pay homage to the process that it took to get that fruit.

And so one element of it is I don't think that we celebrate it enough. We don't celebrate a step forward. We celebrate when somebody's arrived, but it takes a lot of steps forward before we've arrived.

And a lot of the work that actually ends up going unseen is the stuff that I think needs to be vaulted up so that we can more wholly, like, actually pour ourself into the process. Because the process is hard. It happens through sparks, it happens through fiction, through tension.

And me being a nine even, those are all things that I fear because I don't want relationship to be severed. And those are all potential threats. But I forget who the quote was.

But, like, the idea was that the conflict, the tension, these things that we avoid, like, that's actually the cost of intimacy. Like, that's the price that we have to pay to actually get the closeness that we desire.

And so we tend to preserve kind of the status quo and being comfortable. But the thing that we actually want is on the other side of the conflict.

And a lot of times we aren't willing to pay the price, but we pay the price anyway. And it's a higher price because then we just continue to drift as opposed to actually be prepared and have that closeness.

Because that's the other piece of it. Like, through the ironing, or the iron sharpens iron.

Like, there's also a closeness in that relationship, too, that is fostered and grown through that process.

But I think we're scared of it because it sucks, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, it's threatening to relationships, especially if they're already on the fritz. You're wondering, does this relationship have what it takes to actually go into this? But the thing that you want is still on the other side.

So you have to trust God in that.

That God's big enough and beautiful enough and unifying enough that he's going to be faithful to bring you together and bring unity instead of disunity. But it hurts. It's hard, it's uncomfortable.

And, yeah, I don't think that we celebrate it enough because we're very busy trying to find the angle that's going to make us look best, as opposed to the angle that actually glorifies the small step that God actually allowed us to take.

Yeah. The idea of process, I keep thinking as you're talking the word refine. And that doesn't happen in an instant. No. Happen fast.

And when you talk about, you know, taking one step forward and another step forward, even sometimes you take a step forward, you take five back, you take 10 forward and go. I never want to go five back again. You take two forward, but you take five back again.

I mean, it's like life and our being refined in our character is. Is a process.

Right.

I Think so often we also shy back from it because we've been hurt by it before.

That's good.

You know, like I think about as you were talking, you know, I've. I've had a friendship where I felt like we had to have a hard conversation and the friendship couldn't hold it.

And part of that is, is that I think some people are so afraid of conflict or so afraid of sharpening or how do we. Yeah. And I don't know that any of us have been. Most of us haven't been taught how to do it well. And so it goes sideways.

And so a lot of people are running from it and they can't have the conversation. So your relationship sort of stays shallow and fake because you can't go to the places you need to go to get to the other side.

So true.

Which is sad and hard. And you bring all that into all your future relationships. Right, Right.

But still at the center of that, though, is this. This. This decision that we oftentimes make to avoid instead of.

And I'm preaching to the choir, like I am the choir in this because I know that there's been moments where I've stepped away trying to preserve relationship when I know if I would have stepped in, that would have actually had more potential to actually strengthen the relationship. But that choice, we're going to choose and we're going to pay one way or the other.

We're either going to pay in the moment with conflict or we're going to pay over time by just allowing that shallowness to continue to permeate. Because that's kind of.

If that's the status quo in a relationship, it's hard to take a relationship that's stayed on the surface for such a long time and actually dive in. That doesn't mean it can't happen.

But if we're just kind of allowing it to happen and to continue where we start, the relationship is often where it continues unless we are very intentional about taking a turn and taking an opportunity to strengthen and deepen it.

I think the idea of avoiding we so often when we're avoiding what happens is we become a dis. Genuine version of ourselves.

Because I made up this character in my head when you're talking, this annoying person that you hang out with who every time you're hanging out with them, they just sort of have these, like, japs, these sort of, like, statements that sort of cut you.

Yeah.

But they laugh about it like it's all. All in jest. Like, pretend that character and, you know, like Every time you're around this person, you have the same community.

You run into them all the time. This isn't a real person in my life, by the way, but let's say that.

And you know, like, hey, this person would be a better person and have better healthy relationships with me and other people if they knew that they have these sort of like cutting statements that they make that hurt people's feelings.

And if I came to them and I shared it and they actually received that feedb and brought it before the lord and allowed him to transform them, it would make all of us happier. People preach, right?

Yeah.

But we do this mental thing where we're like, I don't know that this relationship can hold this. I don't think this person will hear me. I don't think they're prideful, they're stubborn.

Oh, people have told them before, you know, this is who they are. We do this whole mental game to avoid it. But then what do we do?

Every time we hang out with them, we're like, oh, there he goes again, making these comments. And so we start avoiding the person because we don't want to be around it.

Or we act like it doesn't bother us, but it really bothers us or our bitterness grows.

So we become this sort of inauthentic person when we don't choose to enter into hard conversations with people, when it feels like there's something going on in our relationship that's unhealthy.

Oh, yeah, the math that goes on in your head and even some of it is timing too. He's like, oh, it's not the right timing because I know that they have this thing that's going on and so they don't want. Want.

They don't have the capacity to deal with this conversation. But really you're robbing both of you and you're always looking for. And you start to rationalize why it is that you're continuing to choose to avoid.

But yeah, it's so interesting because then it just becomes even bigger and it becomes even bigger and it becomes even bigger. And it's so easy to continue to talk yourself out of something that you've talked yourself out of. And it takes on a life of its own.

And then, yeah, then there's just this price that we pay. There's a price that we pay. And it's so interesting. I've had that happen.

And then either the conversation gets brought to me or I've had a moment of clarity and been able to actually take a step towards and enter into those conversations. And just the amount of relief typically that I felt when I've just been making excuses is just pretty crazy. I don't know why. It just reminds me.

There was this time when I was.

My family was rafting down the Colorado river and I was in this little kayak and for some reason I was so fearful of getting tossed out in the rapids. And I was so fearful, so I was trying to avoid all the dangerous spots. And finally there was this one spot that completely.

All the waves came at once. It was like the perfect storm. And I just got launched out of that thing. My mom was with me and she just.

She still has like PTSD because she like just like saw her son, her only begotten son, just like flying through and just getting swallowed up in these rapids. But it was so crazy. I came out the rapids and I came out the other side and then I realized, oh, that was it.

Like that, that was, that was worst case scenario. I mean, not worst, but like, that was what I was fearful of is getting kicked out of this thing and experiencing this turbulence.

But then I got kicked off the other side and I was fine.

And it gave me this sense of freedom that even if the thing happens that I'm afraid that it's going to happen and there's this turbulence and there's this, this, this section of the river that I don't want to experience this way, that doesn't mean that you're not going to get kicked out of the other side. And there was a sense of freedom to actually go after some of that stuff that I was afraid of before.

And so sometimes I think in these conversations we were so fearful of getting bucked off and actually ending up in the rapids that sometimes if we experience a little bit of rapids and we get kicked out the other side, it gives us a freedom. And so there's just this invitation there to just try it. What is the worst that can happen?

Because at the end of the day, you're trying to preserve something that isn't really real.

And so if you're just continuing to push forward and allow somebody to continue on in a way that's unhelpful or impractical or not actually preparing them for. For what God would have for them, then what are you actually preserving?

And why are we so fearful of preserving this thing that's not really true to begin with.

Right. I have a lot of people who, they'll tell me their scenarios in relationships and they're so afraid to have a hard conversation about it. And my.

My question to them is, often, if the relationship can't hold this conversation, then what kind of relationship is it in the first place?

Why are you trying to save it so desperately?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. What. When you think about a life that is not open to feedback, what does that person end up looking like?

Like, play that out a little bit, like, over the course of a few decades.

Yeah. I mean, that just sounds like somebody whose heart would be hardened.

It sounds like a person who would probably find people who would agree with them and probably have a very comfortable existence, but not a lot of actual growth or. I mean, it kind of sounds sad to me in a sense, even though we've all experienced it in seasons and so we've all felt that sadness.

But if that's just the dominant narrative in somebody's life, that just seems like that would be either isolating or it would be comparing yourself to people who just agree with you and not actually stretching and not actually growing and having any epiphanies about what God is like, because you're so concerned about what you are like and what you think that if you're not actually growing, then what are you doing? I always think about it in the context of even marriage. You know, Kristen and I have had the opportunity to bring people through premarital.

And one of the things that I think is so interesting is I think there's this. There's this expectation, whether it's conscious or subconscious, that we kind of.

Even though we would never say this out loud, we kind of expect the person that we marry to continue to be exactly how they are on their wedding day. But, like, we're marrying not a stagnant, dead thing. That's never going to change. We're marrying a person. We're marrying if we're in Jesus.

And like, this thing is centered on Jesus, we're marrying somebody who's going to grow and blossom, and there's going to be different seasons, and there's going to be different things, different convictions. And I feel like our role is actually to. To. To. To push those things up and be like, what is God actually like. Like awakening in you in this season?

And how can I. How can I actually encourage you to grow as opposed to try and put pressure on you to stay the same? And so to me, like, that's what life.

Like, that's what. Like growth. That's what. Different seasons. That's why we celebrate seasons and growth is because God's actually doing something new.

And so even though it might be comfortable and there Wouldn't be as much tension.

Like, that's the thing that you lose out on if you just continue to double down on the things that you said and you reject any new information, any bid for sharpening or for perspective that might allow for you to grow.

The people that I meet with that seem the most stuck are the people who can't see their blind spots, which I want to talk to you about blind spots in a minute.

They can't see them, and they feel lonely, and they see this sort of, like, broken thread of relationships, and they don't understand what happened, and they've reached out and they don't know. And so here they are, and there's this sort of running theme in their life, but they don't know why people. And what people do is the slow fade.

They do the slow fade of like, you know, with our annoying friend who just kind of has these constant cutting comments.

If we don't sharpen him, we get so annoyed by him that when he texts and wants to go out for a beer or go, you know, watch a game or whatever, what do we do? We just. We're busy. We text back, oh, pretty busy this week. Oh, busy this month. Got this going. It's what. What I call. Right, the slow pain.

And the people that seem the most stuck are the people who. They cannot see blind spots in their lives that need sharpening, need transformation, because no one's telling them, right?

And so now they're isolated and alone, so they still can't see their blind spots. They don't have community, and they feel stuck and lost and lonely.

And then they're starting to wonder why, and no one's telling them, which is a really hard place to be, Right? And then I find myself at coffee going, I don't think it's for me.

Am I feeling brave?

Let's. Oh, golly. Let's talk about blind spots. All have them. We all have these things in our life that we cannot. We cannot see. What does it look like?

Because you know how you can see it in other people, but you can't see it in yourself.

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's horrible.

But I don't think sharpening is for us to just walk around like, you know, we have some sort of, like, no filter relationship and be like, let me tell you, your blind spot.

But what does it look like in relationship with people that we're close to to suggest that maybe there's an area in their life that they need a mirror to see what's going on? So they don't get to that stuck place.

Right. Man, I would love to hear any perspective you had on that. And that's a hard conversation.

I think the biggest thing that we do though, is we just don't do anything. So I think just making a decision to go after it, to call out something in love, you know, like, we can't, like you said, just be the truth teller.

Because the truth can be all sorts of things that aren't helpful too, outside of the context of love and outside of the context of grace. That's why the Bible talks so much about truth and grace, truth and love, truth.

And because there's these things that allow the truth to be, like, as useful and as full of potential as it really is. Because it's not just about speaking truth. It's about them actually being able to engage with it.

And so as long as your heart is for that person doing the absolute best that you can to take a step towards and to in love, offer it up and have whatever it is, you know, 15 seconds of insane courage. Because I think the biggest thing that I find myself doing sometimes is just not stepping up to the plate. And I think that's. I mean, forget what.

It was Michael Scott, who was quoting Michael Jordan, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You know, and so love looks like even if there is an opportunity to fail to have awkwardness, to have that tension, that you're willing to risk it.

Because that's something I want to get better at, is taking those shots, even if I don't know exactly how to navigate it and even if I'm still seeking perspective and asking people. Because that's a great question. I would love to ask 100 people that question, like, what have you done?

That's actually created the most success when it comes to giving perspective to people in a way that doesn't shut them down or make them feel less than, or make them feel like a failure. Because that's not what we're trying to do. We're trying to unlock, not point towards the thing that is locking them.

We're trying to actually illuminate, give perspective, to turn the thing a little bit so that they can, they can see that there's more that they, that they're capable of. Like, but it requires growth and change.

Right. I love the idea of we're trying to unlock it.

Right.

Lock them up even more.

Exactly.

Right.

Like the whole. You mentioned speaking the truth and love out of Ephesians 4:15.

And I think sometimes we either forego one and not the other or forego the other and not the one. So like we speak the truth but not in love.

Yeah.

Or we don't speak anything.

Oh yeah.

And fake it.

Yeah.

Like that all is well and just act all lovey dovey. Like it feels like we don't do both at the same time. Like why is that?

I don't know. Write a book and get famous.

No, I, I, I, I'm not good at this. Yeah, I, you're ministering me right now. Like I gotta figure it out.

But I just feel like this is often in Christian community, sharpening and holding each other accountable and speaking into each other's lives and choosing to have influence on each other. It's sometimes been done in such damaging ways that it's actually detourched people.

Oh no doubt.

Like, well, because there's so many lives want nothing to do with the church because this has been done so poorly.

Well, yeah, this is one of the, I feel like central things that, that even different churches, different denominations kind of hold differently, you know. And I feel like some people put truth up on a pedestal and say this is all that we have to do, we have to speak the truth.

We have to get this into people's ears and let them know all the ways that they're falling short. But that's just not, that's just not loving. Like that's. Because what that does is that continues to divide and that continues to put up walls.

And what love really looks like is asking the question is how can I, out of the million billion ways that I could actually. This nugget of truth that I truly want to give to them, I don't want to just thrust this on them and make them feel bad.

I want to give this good news, this opportunity out of all of these ways that I could deliver this, what's the way that I can deliver this, that they're going to be able to actually engage with it the best? So not just engage with it, but engage with it the best. Whether it's a sermon, whether it's anything that you say, it's not just about what you say.

It's so important to consider who are the people that are going to hear this and what can I do to actually present this in a way that it's just going to seem so simple and so oh my gosh, not only like, is this something that I want to do? Like this is something I need to do, like this is something I can grow from and that's what love is.

It's considering all those options and actually finding the one. But it takes knowing the person as well.

It takes knowing a person to actually be able to ask the that question and answer it with any amount of certainty or wisdom.

It takes knowing what the person, how they communicate, like what puts up the walls and what takes them down so that it takes proximity to be able to actually look at that from a place of beauty and figure out, okay, what's the way that I can give this to them, that they're going to be able to engage with it to the best of my ability. And then if I've asked that question, I go into it with the purest heart, then I have to live with it at the end. If it's received, praise God.

And if it's not, I have to trust that maybe this is something that they're going to wrestle with for a while. And like we talked about before, we can circle back around too, and we can have a part two or, or maybe not.

And I think that's sometimes the, the cost too. If somebody isn't willing to step in. We can only own our side of the street, you know?

Yeah. And. But there is a. There is an aspect to.

I love the idea of thinking very intentionally and almost preparing and really being thoughtful about delivery, about how am I going to set this conversation up. So you said, so they can best engage it.

But I also think that there's an aspect of life and doing life, as you say, in process and recognizing that people aren't where I expect them to be. They haven't arrived and neither have I.

So just because I decide that I can see their blind, blind spot and I know everything that they need to change about their life, and I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna lay it out in a loving way and speak the truth to them. And even if they, you know, I pitch the ball right to them and they don't hit that ball.

Yeah.

There's something about saying, but I still love you. I'm still for you. I'm still gonna walk alongside in relationship with you.

And I think sometimes we have these hard conversations and then when people don't respond the way that we expect them to, we're like, peace out. You're not telling me I'm right. So. Oh, yeah, this is over.

Yeah. I think even engaging with it, it's a whole.

I mean, because having the right expectations, or I don't even know if it's right expectations, but realizing that a step in the right direction is something to be Celebrated, like we talked about with process. Because it's.

I think it's probably unwise to assume that you're going to completely get them from where they're at to where you think they should be, but realizing that even engaging with it, even, like, taking a little step towards. Because, yeah, they're not all going to be home runs. Sometimes you're going to bunt it, you know, And. And we have to celebrate the bunt.

We have to celebrate the single. We have to celebrate the double. Like, whatever it is, however far. Yeah, yeah.

Coming to the conversation.

Exactly. Even swinging, like, if we've never swung at it, that's progress, you know, so interesting. We get.

We get stuck in all these objective metrics of things that we can count, you know, like, and. And we want. We want proof. We want something that we can. Can actually tangibly hold, feel. See, we want movement that. That registers and that.

That we can actually showcase. But sometimes it's just a slight movement, Sometimes it's growth in the sense of. I mean, Brooklyn is nine months old now, like, my little baby girl.

And just looked at her the other day and, like, I see. Like, this isn't anything new, but you can't see them grow.

But then you just have these moments where you're just like, oh, my God, where did you get so big? Like, how did you. How did you. Like, when did you grow up? You know? And realizing that sometimes it's happening at a pace that you can't see.

But that doesn't mean that when we reflect on it in a year, just because it felt like it was swinging and not hitting doesn't mean that there wasn't a little movement towards. There wasn't a swing where there wasn't a swing before.

There wasn't a little connection that we can't celebrate and that we might be able to see retroactively instead of in the moment.

That's a good word. Wait till Brooklyn walks into your room when she's 17 and he's like, why you gotta be cold like that.

She'll never do that.

He'd be like, listen here, Brookie. Hey, when you see Jesus colliding with people in the New Testament, how do you see him speak truth in love? In ways that we can take cues from.

Oh, man. I've been thinking about this a lot, because all these ideas about truth and love and actually presenting it in a way that people can engage with it.

Sometimes I feel like Jesus doesn't always do that. You know, like, when it comes to. Sometimes he intentionally makes Things takes people off.

And so that's the part of Jesus that I'm still trying to get acquainted with, that I'm trying to learn from because I get this other piece I'm naturally prone to look for. Okay, what can I do that might get people to engage with this idea that they've never engaged with?

How can I package like what can I do in love so that these, so that whoever it is might be able to see this beauty that I see in, in a little bit different way that might spark something that who knows what God will do with, you know? But it's the Jesus who intentionally like says stories that are gonna piss off people and turn people away that I'm still trying to understand.

I'm literally laughing right now, Brian, because the way that I justify this topic of Jesus taking people off is he really only ticks off the really religious prideful people.

No doubt.

And so I just feel self justified that if I'm gonna take those people off, it's totally Jesus. Like, but everybody else, I gotta remain cool.

Yeah.

Calm and loving.

Oh yeah.

These self righteous people that think they have it all day long, we can go at it. I can take them off all day long.

No, that's so true. It's always the same people who are hard hearted and who have turned something that's beautiful into a repetition that loses its beauty.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's still hard because my heart is still. What can we do?

What can we do so that they too would understand this a little bit more, so that there could be a spark, so that there's some potential that God can use and he can do something crazy with. But yeah, I, I see Jesus when it comes to. I see Jesus leading with hospitality. I see him, I see him when he's having a hard conversation.

I see him making breakfast first. I see him going before, I see him washing feet. I see him actually holistically communicating the message not just with words, but with actions.

And I'm not just going to express this through an idea. I'm going to couple it with generosity. I'm going to give you something. And not just something to think about, but something to actually engage with.

And so I think that's so important that we, we don't allow it to end with words because man, those are so easy to stick in the back pocket and they puff us up instead. I don't know, I had this. Who was it?

I think it was Francis Chan who talked about, well, he called them fat Christians and so he talked about this idea that we're in this day and age where there's so much access to content, even podcasts, even, like, Bibles, in the way that they're widely distributed, like they're on phones. There's every kind of. There's ESV and NIV and the message and everything. And it's so readily available.

There's so much content and books that we just take in all of this information.

And a lot of us, we think, okay, we learned, we're good for the day, but unless we actually put it into practice, unless we actually go and work it off and become strong, it's actually just calories that we're taking in, because it's not meant to sit in our back pocket. It's meant to be the fuel that actually allows us to go out and allows us to love people.

And so if an idea, if a perspective, if it's not actually inspiring change or action, then all that it's doing is it's actually just creating a fat store. And there's still potential in that.

But if we just continue to store up that without getting to work, then really it just creates this unhealth in us that eventually, if you go all the way down to the end, we can't even move anymore because we've just eaten so much. And now we're at a spot where we don't even know what it looks like to turn that potential energy into kinetic energy into love.

So I'm very aware and always trying to figure out what it looks like for me to, okay, if I learn something, how can I practice this now? How can I actually share this with somebody today?

How can I actually embody this in a way that matters and in a way that for them and for myself, so I don't just turn into somebody who's content to listen and learn and talk and be done with it. Because that's the people that God has very low tolerance for. He's the ones who he'll try to confuse.

Yeah, I don't want to do that. The idea of our truth for someone else should inspire. Change is a good word. And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about, do this.

I love also you bringing up his hospitality. I thought about the woman at the well, and. And, you know, he meets her at the well, and in a sense, he's like, can I get you some water?

You know, like, you're thirsty. You're so thirsty. And as they start dialoguing and kind of beginning this newfound relationship, he just asks her questions.

And it's like, where's your husband? And she's like, I don't have a husband. And, you know, I. And he goes, you're right, you don't have a husband. You've been with man after man after man.

Right. And he really comes before her and sort of helps her recognize her own thirst. Yeah. He helps her recognize the pattern.

The pattern in her life that isn't working. And I love that. That's why one of our values at Kolide is we try to help women recognize their brokenness so that they can be made whole.

You can't just get to wholeness without first recognizing, like, hey, I'm really thirsty.

Right.

You know, and she has this interaction with Jesus, but he doesn't say, like, damn, girl, you're such a slut. Like, get it together. He acts like actually is like, you're so thirsty.

Yeah.

And here's some water. And they have this conversation that is so quenching to her soul that she actually. Right. You know the story.

Like, she leaves her water jar and she goes, tells her whole village, come see a man who told me everything, you know, I ever did. And they all come and all their lives are changed. And here, like, the town get around girls is changed. The whole village.

But the reason why I bring that all up is because. Because when I think about Jesus and how to take cues from speaking the truth in love is.

Is that he really enters in and meets her where she's at and kind of invites her into her own thirst, her own brokenness, and suggests, like, I have something that will fulfill you. You know, And I think it's tender and it's. And it's loving and it's meeting her where she's at. And it's really coming from a place of.

He wants her not to be thirsty, wants her not to be parched. And sometimes we just want to come in with like, here's what you're doing, here's how it's wrong, and here's what to do to change it.

That's not really how you see Jesus operating a lot of times.

No.

Which is why I love him so much.

Oh, it's so good. Well, and again, it's just like, when I hear you talking about that, I hear the proximity piece. I hear. I think it was actually.

I think it was Julie Burleson, who I think you had on a while ago. She was. She was given a sermon at Ecclesia that was about. It was about love.

And the thing that I remember taking away, that I've really held on to is that idea that you have to know people to love them. It's kind of the idea of love languages.

You know, oftentimes we love people in the way we want to be loved because maybe you, on a subconscious level, we're hoping that it comes back in that same form.

But really what love looks like is taking the time to get to know what love looks like for that person, how they actually interpret love so that we can speak that language to them as opposed to speak a language that we know. But like, it's. It's not actually communicating the thing that we think it's communicating.

We think we're doing our part, but our part actually isn't the action. It's the getting to know.

It's the having the proximity to know how we can express something that they're actually going to receive that they're going to actually be impacted by. And I think that's what we always see with Jesus. Well, I think he had a little bit of a leg up because he was God.

And so he knew things just a little bit. Yeah, but, but still, like we see like him use that because he knew people. He knew people and he was close to people.

And I think that those are such important things.

We can't love people that we're not close to and that we don't understand because we'll just end up projecting and we'll just end up loving people the way that we don't or that we want to be loved. But a lot of times that's a. That's just vanity. That's just us projecting on the world. And it's not.

Even though it's in the best of intentions and the best of heart, it's not doing the thing that we want it to do.

And so it ends up kind of being meaningless unless we take that time to get to know people, to get to be close to people so that we can actually figure out what does it look like for me to love this person in a way that's going to connect to their heart and their soul and inspire the change that. That they want and that we want in their lives as well.

So earlier in this Proverb, in Proverbs 27:6, it says, Faithful are the wounds of a friend. What a weird proverb.

Seriously, what do you think it looks like to have the kind of faithful friendship where you're so open to community speaking into your life that you would let them in enough to allow them to potentially end up hurting you?

Yeah, I love one of my favorite books is Donald Miller, Scary Close.

And it's just this idea that we have so much practice trying to figure out what it looks like for us to operate in a social setting and what works and what doesn't work. And a lot of times we confuse that for who we really are.

And what does it look like for us to find, put some of that stuff down so we can get closer to holding out our true self and giving people the opportunity to speak into that and to speak life into that. But obviously it's called Scary Close for a reason, because there's a vulnerability piece and there's a risk of being rejected, a risk of failure.

But, yeah, wounds from a friend. I think that's so interesting because a lot of times I'm looking for those things.

A lot of times I think you have to have a posture of, hey, will you. Will you speak into this? Because I think right now there's.

Even in this point in culture and time and humanity, like, there's at least where I'm sitting, it seems like a lot of people are. Are hesitant to even go after these questions and these conversations. And so. And so I find myself seeking them out.

I'm like, will somebody speak into this? Like, will somebody speak into my blind spots? Because I don't know about you, but I'm the only one of the room that can't.

Or I'm the only one who can't see me in a room, you know, like, everyone else can see me. I can't see me. So I need you, for the love of God, will you tell me, will you love me? Like, will you actually be my friend? And so.

So I don't know about you. I think that. That, yeah, it's kind of a weird proverb, but it's like, that's what I'm looking for. To me, I'm just like, yes, please.

Like, will people even take that step towards. Will they have boldness? Like, will they. Will they lovingly create a little pain, a little tension, a little sharpening?

Another interesting thing about sharpening that I was thinking about is it's removing. It's not. It's. We're removing things. Like, it's not adding to. It's taking things off.

Which makes me think of even the way that when we exercise, this is an idea. This isn't something that I have to do, but it's an idea that I love.

It's the ripping up, and then it's the creating space, and then God actually builds it back stronger, which I think is so cool. And so the process of sharpening is grinding away. It's not adding to, it's not adding another idea. It's revealing what was there all along.

It's a remembering, it's a perspective shift. And through tension we remove this distraction so that we can get to the real thing.

But yeah, when I think of that, I think yes please, will somebody speak into and have boldness and actually wound me in a way that long term.

You're like bring it, wound me.

But the thing about this proverb of faithful are the wounds of our friend is that I think it messes with all of our self protective mechanisms that we kind of put into place where we don't want to get hurt. So we have these certain things that we sort of do in our lives to keep us from getting hurt in relationships. Yeah.

And there's something about this idea of sharpening that sort of invites us into this intimacy.

Like this proverb is really calling us to let the walls down, cast away the pride, stomp out the secrets, let someone into the skeletons in the closet, the, you know, the blind spots, the negative self beliefs, the destructive patterns, all of it. And I think that's a really, I mean scary. Scary, no doubt. Yeah, really scary. I know we could talk about this forever.

But in closing, Brian, what's your greatest encouragement to those listening who desire becoming their best self and being open to being sharpened to get to their best self but they fear it because being sharpened has been so wounding in the past.

Yeah, I mean when I think about that idea, I just think that God is preparing us. If we truly believe that God is preparing us, then this is what it takes to live a life of purpose.

This is what it takes to actually partner with God in the way that we were created. I think it was, I think it was TD Jakes at Global Leadership. A couple years ago he said something I was so encouraged by.

He says a lot of times we pray for tables, we pray for finished products, but what God gives us is trees. And he says, he says actually partner with me and take and remove and sharpen and, and, and actually craft this into the thing that you crave.

I'm not going to give you the thing that you crave.

I'm going to give you the raw materials and then it's up to you, you to actually partner with me and take all of the things that I've given you, all your gifts and your talents and your relationships and build the table that you want so that people can sit at it and you can be generous. And so I would Just encourage that.

You either pay for it with the tension and the sparks and the intimacy and potentially even moments of frustration, or you're gonna pay for it by missing out on so much growth and so much beauty and so much of what God actually has in store.

And we can pray all day long that God's gonna give us or make us into a table that can be a conduit for generosity, or we can realize that we, too, are, in a way, untapped resources. We're raw potential. We're trees that were created for a specific purpose. But we.

We need people to come alongside us and encourage us so that we can actually be formed into the image of God and into the image of the things that. That we were created to be so that we can actually live into the purpose that God created us for. And so take the risk. I don't know.

That sounds cheesy when I say it. I wish it didn't sound as cheesy as it did, but this is to me. This is to me, out of anybody. Take the risk. Look for it. Look for the friends who are.

Who are safe and ask them, would you be a friend who would show me? Would you? Because that's one thing. This doesn't have to be just us looking for other people and sharpening other people.

This could be a proactive man. Are you looking for people? Are you inviting people into that space to see? Say, would you, for the love of God, show me my blind spots?

Because I, too, want to be sharpened. I, too want what's. What God created me for to become true in my life and through me.

And so I would say, don't just read this as something of going out and how can I best sharpen others? Would you invite people? Would you realize that faithful are the wounds of a friend? And would you say. Say, would you be a friend, a true friend to me?

And would you speak into these spaces? That might be hard and might be difficult and might even create frustration in us, but we realize that there's a closeness on the other side.

That's a good word. Thank you for being on the podcast.

Oh, my gosh. Thanks for having me.

It's so fun. Hey, if there's people here today who want to connect with you in some way, how can they do that?

Hmm. I mean, we got all sorts of social medias and emails, and so, yeah, I don't know what people typically share.

Social Security number, bank information.

If you could give me your bank account number.

Okay. That's what this has all been about. No, you can. Yeah. Find me on Facebook. It's just Brian Behrens. Or Instagram. Facebook.

Or in real life, are you on the Snapchat? I'm not on the Snapchat. Snapchat makes me feel old. I don't get it.

It makes me feel old. It's in my house. I am old.

It was the first medium that I just. I looked at it and I did not understand it. And it made me feel like, oh, I have passed my relevant. Like, I don't get.

That means you have a MySpace account, doesn't it?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. We're totally.

You can find me on MySpace. My space.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Brian Baron's people, thank you for being here.

Thanks for tuning in to keep up with us. You can find us on Instagram @WeCollide on Facebook as CollideWomen.

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