Most founders start with a simple idea. Then growth happens — and suddenly the company becomes ten different things at once.

In this episode, PodMatch founder Alex Sanfilippo shares the moment he realized his business had become confusing to the market. After launching multiple offerings and expanding quickly, he discovered that customers no longer understood what the company actually did.

For CEOs scaling a company, this conversation explores the difficult leadership decision to choose focus over opportunity — and why simplifying the business can be harder than building it.

Alex Sanfilippo founded PodMatch to solve a specific problem in the podcasting industry: connecting podcast hosts and guests efficiently. But like many founders in the early growth stage, he began expanding into new products, courses, and services.

Over time, the business accumulated multiple brands, offerings, and initiatives. At a podcasting conference, a simple audience question exposed the problem: people didn’t understand what he actually did.

That moment forced a strategic reset.

In this conversation, Alex walks through the realization that his company had become too complex, the discipline required to say no to good opportunities, and how narrowing the company’s focus ultimately strengthened the business.

He also discusses the emotional side of building a company — including the pressure of being a “frontline founder,” the importance of founder communities, and the role of a single operating metric in guiding business decisions.

Key Takeaways

1. Confusion in the market is often a signal of strategic drift

When customers can’t clearly describe what your company does, the business may have expanded beyond its core value proposition.

2. Early founder enthusiasm often creates complexity

Many founders say yes to every opportunity during early growth, which can slowly turn a focused company into a scattered one.

3. Saying no is one of the hardest CEO decisions

Maintaining focus requires the discipline to reject good ideas that do not reinforce the company’s core offering.

4. Founder isolation can distort decision-making

Seeking feedback from other founders helped Alex reframe difficult challenges and regain perspective during plateau moments.

5. Every business needs a single operational metric

At PodMatch, the key signal of company health became the number of interviews successfully completed on the platform.

00:00 Intro Hook – Being Known for Something

00:14 Podcast Introduction

01:00 Alex’s Personal Brand & Minimalist Setup

04:55 Early Career & Discovering Podcasting

10:02 The Idea Behind PodMatch

15:05 Building a Platform for Podcasters

20:05 The Importance of Relationships in Business

25:10 From Founder to CEO Mindset

30:00 Lessons From Growing a Startup

35:05 Community Building in Podcasting

40:00 Personal Growth & Leadership Insights

45:05 Final Advice for Entrepreneurs

48:42 Outro

Guest Information:

Alex Sanfilippo

Founder & CEO — PodMatch

Website: https://podmatch.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexsanfilippo/

We should be known for something by now.

2

I think I had 11 different things.

3

I was like kind of becoming known for it.

4

I think it's probably time to hire a CEO

because I'm no CEO.

5

I'm a founder,

6

and it takes a lot of self-discipline

to be willing to say no to those things.

7

Welcome back, everybody, to the breakout

CEO podcast.

8

I'm your host, Jeff Holeman,

and I'm here with Alex Sanfilippo.

9

Alex, it's

so good to have you on the show.

10

Jeff, I'm really excited to be here.

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Thank you so much for having me, man.

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Yeah, of course.

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And I have to say,

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you have one of the easy

I don't know if it's the easiest.

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It seems easy.

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The background that you've got

just makes it very consistent.

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Very easy.

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To identify you not, you know, face,

of course, works, but, like,

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you just got this kind of iconic

look to you. What's.

20

How'd you come up with that, man? So,

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it wasn't it wasn't fully intentional.

22

First off, I'm a really simple individual,

so, like, what you see is what you get.

23

Like, I just have a background

with some LEDs hitting it.

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It's just my my wall and also my walls.

25

My house are empty. I'm.

26

I'm borderline minimalist and I'm thankful

my wife is actually okay with that.

27

So like,

this is just kind of my personality.

28

It fits really well.

29

However, I will everyone

see something different here?

30

When I look at my background behind me,

I see purple because that's

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like one of our brand colors.

32

When I look at the computer, I see blue.

33

What color do you see right now?

34

It's, in between.

35

I think I would call it I would call it,

36

a little bit warmer blue.

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Okay.

Which I guess makes it kind of purple.

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It's it's a it's, it's not a light blue.

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It's more of a warmer blue.

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Okay. I can say it that way.

41

So I ask, when it debut

debuted on a zoom call, that guy was over

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90 people on the zoom call,

and people were like, whoa, look at Alex.

43

Someone said this on the screen.

They said, well, look.

44

And also the new cool blue background

and someone else

45

goes, it's

not a blue background, it's purple.

46

And then this whole like argument started

and I was like,

47

I guess this is my life

now. Like, I'm not going to change it.

48

So was the the gold dress or the

what were what was that thing?

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That was it was ahead of you right there.

50

The whole dress thing, it's similar to

it felt like that.

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And so I'm kind of stuck with it

now. But it's okay.

52

This is again,

it fits my personality really well.

53

And I've been I've enjoyed having

a really simple, just podcasting work.

54

Well, I wasn't going to ask this,

but this leads me into the next question.

55

Pretty, pretty well

because now I'm curious.

56

Do you you're a you're a simple guy.

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You're, you know, clean, clean cut,

clean wall, all that stuff

58

is that is that

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like, representative

of how you run your business?

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I like to think so.

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Sometimes I actually do.

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I will admit, initially,

I overcomplicate things

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like the first iteration of anything

new I'm trying to do.

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I definitely, like,

overcomplicate it in my mind.

65

And my other two co-founders

ones, my wife,

66

the other one's a longtime friend of mine.

67

But, the three of us, I tell them like,

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hey, just so you'll know,

like the first version of something

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I'm pitching to y'all

is going to be overly complicated.

70

But in general,

I always do my best to tell them,

71

hey, just know I'm going to get it

more simple. Encourage me to do that.

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And we do our best just to literally

just keep everything simple.

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And so for

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I think that the way that I live

my personal life is reflected

75

in the business and vice versa.

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So I try to keep the complexity out of it.

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And I've gone a little bit extreme,

I will admit.

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Like,

the color I'm wearing is kind of like a,

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I don't know, like an off

gray type color, like a very light gray.

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This is the same color to me.

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Shirt I own is I think I have 15 of them.

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They all have different logos on them, but

they're all I think there's 15 of them.

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I had made and I.

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So I'm very simple.

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It's funny, like if you go into my closet,

be like, this is all you own.

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It's like, yeah, this just just kind of

kind of keep it simple.

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And same with business.

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Like I don't have a whole lot of things

that I do like.

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I run my business

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and I don't have like all the little side

hustles

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and all the little add ons

and stuff like that, and just

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I enjoy life that way and I enjoy business

that way.

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I can wrap my head around it really well.

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So it's kind of been the flow

I've maintained all the way through.

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Well, I think I articulated something

that a lot of business owners

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go through, right?

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Because you launch the business, you're

like, I could do this, I could do this.

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In fact, many business owners

don't have the restraint you do.

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And they in fact, try to add on all those

other things on top of their business.

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Right.

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And, and that becomes, kind of a mess

in a lot of different ways.

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Some of them I've seen and some of them

I tried to help clean up before, but,

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but that becomes a mess a different way.

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It takes a lot of work, though,

to simplify a business to the point

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where it's easy.

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Right.

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And I look at that from a

from my background in law.

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And I've had clients say, wait a second,

this is all you did.

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You charge me how much?

And this is what you did.

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And I say, you don't know the path

it took to get this simple.

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What was it?

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Was it Mark Twain?

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What was his saying?

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You know, if you if you want me to,

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Gosh, I can't remember something

about writing a long letter.

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If you want to write a short letter,

give me ten hours or something.

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Like I think it was.

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If you want me to talk for for four hours,

I can prep it in five minutes.

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If you only talk for five minutes,

I need four hours to prep. So.

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Yeah, something along those. Yeah.

And the idea is like it's.

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Yeah, it's.

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I like what Leonardo da Vinci says.

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And it's this, that, simplicity

is the ultimate form of sophistication.

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And I have seen that through

and through my business, in my life.

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But I don't want to sound like

I've always gotten it right.

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There was a time, Jeff,

where I was actually,

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I was at a podcasting conference.

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Because, again, that's all I do, right?

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I was there and somebody

it was like kind of a Q&A thing

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and someone's like, hey, Alex,

I have just one question.

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Like, I don't know what you do.

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You seem to do so much.

I'm really confused.

133

I watch more than half the room nod

when she said that, and I was like, oh no.

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Like, even though everything I was doing

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was in podcasting,

I had I think I had 11 different things.

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I was like kind of becoming known

for like courses.

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This everything on its own

name, its own brand had books

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and kind of like all these different

things that, again, had their own name.

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And that's when I realized it

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like, oh, I've, I've gone

from wanting to do something really simple

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to now

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overcomplicating it, muddying the water

because I just started adding

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so many things.

Now I still do. Most of things.

144

Some of them

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I cut out completely, but I just now

do them all under my company pod match.

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We do all under that umbrella,

all inside of it.

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So there's no confusion.

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It's all just part of the service

that we offer.

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So I don't want to try to make it sound

like I've always gotten this right.

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Like I've had to learn this.

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And as I've learned it in business,

as I've learned my personal life,

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I let one influence the other

along the way.

153

Yeah, that makes sense.

How long ago was that?

154

When when they asked that question of you,

155

and my goal was within one year

to fix that.

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I'm almost there.

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So it's still been it's

been multiple years now, many years.

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But, I'm still working toward

simplifying all the time.

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And I'm getting real close

to where I feel like I'm kind of like

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the golden standard of it, but I'm.

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I'm a work in progress, like all of us.

162

Well, and when when did you start Pod

Match relative to that one match launched?

163

June 15th, 2020 was our first day.

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Okay, so it'd been it'd been there.

165

You've been running your business

166

for a couple of years, and someone said to

you, wait, what is it you do?

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Yeah.

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Like, right. You're like,

I have a business.

169

Of course I have other businesses too,

but I.

170

I have this business, and, like,

171

that kind of hits you and you're like,

wait a second, right?

172

Yeah.

173

It's the interesting thing is it's

not like I set out to, to confuse or to.

174

Right.

175

And I wasn't trying to like,

176

become

famous is just when someone talks to you,

177

they're like, oh, Alex, you should do

this. You're really good at it.

178

And then you're like, oh, wait,

I am good at that. I'll do that. Right?

179

And just started responding to everything

and especially when you first start

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a business, you need to talk to the people

that you're serving,

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but you also have to have some

some discernment, some wisdom

182

to understand,

like what to actually act upon.

183

And I basically listened

to every bit of feedback

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and just implemented

everything that I possibly could.

185

I was doing this pod match thing full time

within six months of starting it.

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And so for me, I was like,

I've got some capacity,

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I've got some time with the company small.

188

And so I just started becoming all things

to all people.

189

As long as it was, it was in podcasting.

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But now I've realized, like,

I don't want to be that.

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I want to be this, this one person

that does this one thing

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for people in podcasting, I know people

who do the rest, but it's not me anymore.

193

And but at first

I fell in that temptation of

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just being like,

yeah, I'll do that for you.

195

Yeah, I'll do that too.

196

And it takes a lot of

197

it takes a lot of self-discipline

to be willing to say no to those things.

198

Well, a lot of early stage founders

or early founders, you don't know

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if you've nailed your business model yet.

200

So there is this exploration of what feels

like tangential services or products.

201

And maybe we should add this

and we'll then we'll maybe that's where

202

we'll actually build our, our businesses

around the, the next product or

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so there's that feature creep.

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There's the exploration.

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There's,

you know, kind of perpetual pivot mode.

206

I don't, you know, any of those.

207

But you had you had co-founders,

when you started this, right?

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Yeah, I still do. Yep.

The same three of us. Yep.

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How did your co-founders feel like?

210

Would they have said the same thing, like.

211

Well, Alex, we've been meaning to tell

you, you're a little you're a little,

212

you know, scattered in this,

or was it just a function of the business?

213

That's how it was operating and growing.

214

Yeah.

215

It was like, as you mentioned,

216

early stage, like you don't really know

what's going to stick.

217

We were very much

so in that boat between the three of us.

218

And so I knew a lot about podcasting.

219

We started

my wife knew a lot about operations,

220

but not a lot about podcasting.

221

And my other co-founder,

who's the technical guy,

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builds out the software

and stuff like that.

223

He knows literally

nothing about podcasting to now he does.

224

But he didn't. He didn't at that point.

225

And so they were I was like, hey,

we just got to see what we can make work.

226

And the thing is, the company was

it was growing and it did it.

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It actually helped for a time

until we hit the point where, like,

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we kind of found our product market

fit, right?

229

We we found that lane

that we should be in.

230

But I was all over the place.

231

And so at that point, it was first

an internal commitment to them saying,

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hey y'all, I'm going to I'm going to

streamline what I do here to narrow it in.

233

I'm going to stop a bunch of things

234

and we're gonna look at what's profitable,

what's bringing in business,

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what's actually serving people

at the highest level.

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If it's not doing those things, I'm going

to start cutting it in and removing it.

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And so it's one of those things

where they didn't bring it up.

238

I actually brought up to them first

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after hearing someone say,

I'm confused about what you do.

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That was really like the thing

that tipped me over the edge to be like,

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oh, it's time to it's time to hone in

because we should be known

242

for something by now,

not just being a guy.

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You can handle anything

in the podcasting space.

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Yeah, that's that's really interesting.

I think.

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I think it's a familiar trajectory.

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Let's pause there though,

because I don't know.

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We've told people at pod matches,

I'm actually, a user of Pod match.

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I've been on it

for, I think, over a year now.

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I don't know,

I just started my podcasting journey

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as a guest and I'm like,

I got to be on a podcast

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and I did a bunch of that, and I'm like,

where's the

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how do you find host to host you?

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Oh, there's

this awesome platform called Pod Match.

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Some guy named Alex has created it

and it's and it's what I started

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using to find hosts that wanted guests

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that, you know, we're

speaking about the topic they speak about.

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And then

and then I was I, I actually signed up for

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I think you have a combined plan

host and guest and I signed up for both.

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I'll let you explain

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what it is in a minute,

but I signed up for both because I thought

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I might start my own podcast later.

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We'll see what happens.

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And in fact, you know, I did so.

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But tell the audience what pod matches

and, you know, kind of the basics

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of what it does for the community,

because I think it really is.

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I have to sorry, I have to add this.

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I think it really is not just a platform.

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I think what you're building is, is

as much a community as it is a platform.

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Yeah. Thank you for that, Jeff.

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I really appreciate it.

Thanks for being part of Pod Match.

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For everyone who's like, okay,

what is this pod match thing?

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The website is Pod Match.com,

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and it's a service that connects podcast

guests and hosts for interviews.

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We use an algorithms

I the stuff that we've actually built

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to basically connect

the right people together.

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So like Jeff and I matched,

277

I should say the breakout CEO

and Alex Sanfilippo matched on pod match,

278

given my expertise and what Jeff

says, hey, this is what the breakout

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CEO is looking for, right?

280

So we're able to make that connection

in the system.

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The whole idea is to streamline

that process and for lack of better term.

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Listen, I've been married too

long to be on a dating app,

283

but for lack of better term,

it works very similar to a dating app.

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But instead of can you for data connection

for podcast interviews

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and on the platform

you can message back and forth.

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You can schedule.

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You never have to exchange an email

if you don't want to.

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You can handle it

all literally right there.

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And that was the idea.

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Let's let's remove

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the friction involved

and bring the right people together

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and help them to get to the actual

recording studio,

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whether it be in person

or virtual, faster,

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so that ultimately listeners

could be served at a

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at a higher level

without all the again, all the friction

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that's involved behind the scenes

that most people don't see.

297

And so that's, that's the big problem

that we serve in the podcasting industry.

298

And that's been my sole focus

for for years now.

299

And I've gotten better and better

making that my only focus.

300

But thanks for your opportunity

to talk about that, Jeff I appreciate it.

301

Yeah. Well, it's a it's a fantastic tool.

302

Those of people who are listening to this

thinking, I'd like to be a guest.

303

Go check out Pod Match,

create an account and sign up.

304

It's it's easy

and it's a great it's a great platform.

305

It really is I, I don't just say that

because you're sitting here,

306

you know, with me on my show,

like it's a great platform.

307

I've been using it long before

I got to know you, although I was

308

I very glad to get to know you through the

platform and LinkedIn and other places.

309

So yeah, thank you for that.

310

Matt means a ton I appreciate you.

311

Yeah, yeah, I know of no worries.

312

I wanted to touch on if you

if you don't mind.

313

A few weeks ago

it was either on Facebook or on LinkedIn.

314

I noticed that you said something.

315

You were kind of pulling out the the

what do we call it?

316

Vulnerability. Right? That's

what this we call it these days.

317

And you said, man,

I don't know what's going on.

318

I'm going to paraphrase.

319

I'm going to get it wrong.

320

Ask my wife if I know how to paraphrase

correctly, and she'll tell you I don't.

321

So but I'm going to do

my version of paraphrasing.

322

And and that was something like, man,

323

I'm building this platform, but some days

I just, I can't please everybody.

324

I got people that are complaining

and people that are, you know,

325

not happy or, you know,

I don't know if it was

326

because you removed a feature

or you turn on a feature or just somebody

327

wasn't

doing exactly what they expected it to do.

328

And you're like, you know, we're trying

and we're we're going at it.

329

You remember that post?

330

I do, yeah.

331

Those are those are hard to forget.

332

Yeah.

333

Great job paraphrasing it.

334

Me and your wife can can talk about this.

335

You can tell me what I missed.

336

Yeah.

337

Yeah, I, you know,

I think vulnerability is really important.

338

As a matter of fact, you had

339

a, you had a recent episode of your show

that listened to the breakout CEO.

340

You had, Zach Barney on it.

341

I remember the data was aired on February

342

And a really good episode.

343

By the way,

I encourage you to listen to it.

344

Something that that Zach said was

345

that you just need to admit

when you're struggling,

346

like you're having a struggle

or something, you're going to like, be

347

be open about it.

348

And this was me being that like,

I just decided, like,

349

hey, I'm going to use my social media

platforms for work.

350

Like I really only use them for work.

351

But I'm also going to be really honest

about that stuff on there.

352

And when I posted this,

it was actually like this.

353

It's this weird week

that happens every year.

354

It's, near the end of January,

355

and it's when people who at the beginning

of the year were really excited to

356

to start a new goal or resolution,

whatever you want to call it.

357

And this is, this is the time now where

they've decided they admitting failure.

358

They feel like they decided

they're going to quit.

359

And there's this

they quit the gym the week before.

360

And right now they're quitting podcasting.

361

Yeah.

362

And so what happens is, because we're

very community driven within Pi Match.

363

And thank you for saying that earlier,

by the way.

364

Like really a community is

is is key to what we're doing these days.

365

And so like for me I'm available.

366

Like I check the email

my wife checks email Jesse,

367

our other co-founder,

like we're the ones in the email.

368

We don't use any AI tools or like chat

bots and like that, like it's actually us.

369

And every year, that time of year,

370

the system

does automatically send some notification.

371

So it might be like, hey Jeff, notice

372

you haven't logged in a couple in a week

or something like that.

373

Or how's it going so far?

374

And because that's open for people

to respond, we're the first person

375

typically to tell this, to

remind this person that, hey, you failed.

376

Why right now we don't say that,

but that's how they articulate.

377

So they respond very like very rude,

very like

378

I mean, I think maybe they just don't

realize a human's going to see it

379

because some other people say I'm like,

wow, like, would you,

380

would you say that in person? Like,

that is awful. Like, yeah.

381

How could you say, right.

382

So people are like, oh, I failed

because you all are terrible, right?

383

It's like, okay,

well that can't really be the reason.

384

But the people use way

worse words in that.

385

So I was really just

386

I posted that just have a place of like,

man, I'm, I'm worn out.

387

It was like a Monday morning.

388

And that's always like the worst of it

happens Monday morning.

389

And so it was just like a bunch of emails

in a row

390

where I'm like, man,

does anyone even like pod match?

391

You know, like

392

and I go, look, I'm like, oh,

there's like a hundred thousand

393

people using it,

and there's ten here that are angry.

394

Like, it's like, okay, I think we're okay.

395

But I think,

I think that it takes a big commitment

396

to be that what I call the front line

founder, being the person

397

at the front of the pack,

being willing to take on some of that,

398

that pressure right, of like,

hey, you're going to call my baby ugly.

399

Go ahead. I'm ready.

400

Like I'm bracing myself.

And I was having one of those weeks.

401

Where is I mean, this is I need to like,

remind myself and remind others.

402

Like, this is actually hard work.

403

Like, I like to make it look like it's

all fun and games because usually it is.

404

But sometimes, like, man, you got to put

on your big boy pants and just go for it.

405

And that was one of those weeks for sure.

406

I love that.

407

I love that phrase. Frontline founder.

408

I don't think I've heard it before.

409

Or if I have, I didn't remember it.

410

But, that really is true.

411

I mean, it's that you're you're

I think you're referring a little bit

412

to battleground scenarios and you're like,

you're or at least the chaos

413

that would be represented

of being out on the battlefield, right?

414

Like you're in the middle of it

trying to trying to advance when the,

415

you know, what's in front of you

might be, might be unknown

416

at best and hostile,

you know, in some in some situations.

417

So there's there's something to be said

about that front line founder,

418

phrasing and mentality.

419

Have you use that often?

420

I had never heard it before.

421

And the first time I ever said

it was for that post

422

because I was having trouble, like

articulating like, well, what am I like?

423

Why? Why is this different for me then?

424

So and I'm not talking about

about other companies

425

in the space and listeners

all kinds of ways to build your business.

426

But most of the businesses in podcasting,

427

there's there's no way you would ever have

a conversation with a founder

428

or anyone above,

like just a regular support individual

429

who literally has no connection to, like,

the actual heartbeat of the business.

430

Right?

431

So for them, they're like, I'll just block

you, you know, like you don't.

432

You can trust me.

433

I'll just block it.

434

I don't care, you know,

like I don't get paid enough for this.

435

And so like and so I was like,

what is this?

436

I'm like, oh, basically

like I'm running this,

437

but I'm actually like, I'm

at the front line.

438

I'm the first person they get shot at, you

know, like it kind of comes right at me.

439

And so I never heard it before either.

440

I don't know if it was the right term

and maybe it has some different

441

meaning behind it

I'm not aware of, but, to me,

442

it's it's how I felt at the very least

and still to this day

443

feel it's

actually how I want to run my business.

444

Like, yes, I had a tough week.

445

I made it very clear in that post

I'm not changing anything.

446

I'm just saying this

in case you're doing it this way as well.

447

And so I want that to be known.

448

Like if you're going to build a community

around a business

449

as a founder,

I think have to be really heavily

450

involved with that,

maybe not the exact front line like I am.

451

I'm not saying

452

I think maybe

what I'm doing is a little extreme,

453

but you've got to in some way, shape

and form be involved in it

454

because the community is going to follow

what's happening from the top down.

455

Yeah.

456

And when before the show, we were talking

a little bit about, fear people.

457

If you've if the audience hears our,

our little icebreaker question

458

conversation before this, they'll,

they'll hear what you said about that.

459

But I think for those who haven't heard

it, it's you mentioned that having courage

460

is the ability to step into the unknown,

even though your mind is telling you,

461

oh, wait, wait, I don't know what this

I don't know what this is.

462

And no, it's going

you know what's going to happen.

463

And so it sounds to me

like you've got a really good handle

464

on approaching,

you know, those tough moments,

465

knowing that they're going to be there

even though.

466

And that they'll pass too, I think.

467

But knowing they're going to be there,

even though you don't know

468

exactly when they're going to pop up

or how they're going to show up.

469

Absolutely.

470

I think for me, that all ties

471

back to my personal core values,

which informed the company's core values.

472

When I say mine,

like my personal core values

473

with the companies are between me,

Alicia and Jesse, the three co-founders.

474

But like one of our big ones

that we have on the website,

475

we list series like human to human,

like we're always gonna do business.

476

It's human to human.

477

And for me personally, like,

it kind of ties to my personal core value

478

of what I just say loving first.

479

And so I always remind myself, like, hey,

I love people for who they are,

480

not for what they do.

481

And our job as a company

is to love people who are hurting.

482

And so I remind myself of that.

483

And like,

I know that I'm using the word love.

484

And people are like,

aren't you like in podcasting?

485

Like, yes, within the day

we're in the human connection business.

486

Like that's what we do, right?

487

And so like there's got to be

some sense of love and passion involved.

488

They can't just be all transaction

in dollars.

489

If it is, you're never gonna build

a community around at the very least,

490

and it's never gonna have a true

heartbeat.

491

It's so many people these days look for

when they want to work with a company.

492

And so that's again, this is the cost

of designing what we have.

493

Right.

494

Like so as you were like, man,

you all like your company does

495

so well, like, how can I build a company

that's successful?

496

I'm like, you got to want to and it's not.

497

Sometimes I feel like we don't get paid

enough, you know, like, and that's okay.

498

But, that's just the approach

we decided to take with this thing, and.

499

And I'll be real,

95% of the time, it's a blessing.

500

It's a blast. Be part of.

501

And I'm really just grateful to be here.

502

Yeah, I love it.

503

Have you read An Unreasonable Hospitality

by chance?

504

Man, that's my funny you said

that is my next book that's queued up.

505

Somebody just told me about this

506

after that post and so I have not read it,

but it's my next move queued up.

507

So hearing it from

you makes me really excited. Open it up.

508

Yeah, I just read it.

509

I and I shared it with my with my team

here at the law firm.

510

I mean, who's in a law firm?

511

You're not like a about hospitality.

You're not.

512

Hospitality is.

513

But we all are.

514

We're and

and what you're saying remind me of that.

515

We're all in the.

516

It's like human to human experience.

517

What's the emotional response

that you create for other people?

518

And how do you do that in a way?

519

Not that every single interaction

has to be that way.

520

But if you have a slice, even a sliver of

of what you do with your community,

521

with your people, with your team,

and you make it

522

unreasonably great,

you know, is the concept.

523

And and you create

these phenomenal experiences,

524

you know, it's you're going to stand out.

525

And in the case of of the author of that

book, you know, will get all right.

526

You're you're going to you're

going to develop a three, what is it, a,

527

three star Michelin restaurant

528

and top of the list

in, you know, world class restaurants.

529

So I, I'm sure you'll find lots

of applications for that.

530

And you'll be great at,

implementing it in a, in a cool way.

531

Yeah. I'm excited about that, man.

That's cool.

532

Yeah. Well, I'd like to.

533

I'd like to ask you

because I haven't seen, you know,

534

I've watched for the last years, I've been

a, you know, a member of your community.

535

I've watched what's going on.

536

I see things happening and changing,

and you're developing things and,

537

and you've got a lot going on

for the community.

538

But I'd love to know for my audience

who is, you know, they're like you.

539

They're building a business.

540

Everybody sees the outside world, and they

get to see when things are going right.

541

Every once in a while,

they get a glimpse into the inside world.

542

But a lot of people building businesses

think

543

I'm just the only one going through this.

544

I've got nobody to turn to.

545

You know, I could be I could be vulnerable

a little bit, maybe out on LinkedIn

546

or whatever, but but really,

when something really goes wrong,

547

who do I tell?

548

I don't want to tell my investors

549

because they're going to be like,

you're incompetent.

550

I don't want to tell my employees

551

because they're going to be like,

why am I working for you?

552

I don't want to tell my,

you know, there's so many people you

553

you can think of a whole list of people

you don't want to tell.

554

And so they end up just kind of

sitting on it and not, do we want to dwell

555

on negative things by, by any means, but

what is there a moment in your business

556

where you kind of hit those plateaus

or those obstacles?

557

And you said, I kind of figure out,

you know, not just how to deal with the

558

the implications of what's going on,

but how do I change my perspective or,

559

or where do I go to get a little bit

different insight and really break

560

through this moment and find growth

out of what otherwise feels like?

561

You know, maybe a plateau or

562

maybe more, you know,

maybe a bigger obstacle than that.

563

Just a quick note about our guest.

564

I host the breakout CEO podcast

to share behind

565

the scenes insights

from scaling businesses.

566

As an attorney,

I see the real challenges leaders

567

face long before success becomes public.

568

But client stories

have to stay confidential,

569

so we invite guest CEOs to share

their own moments of struggle and success.

570

I'm so grateful to our guest and my team

571

at Intellectual Strategies

for making this show possible.

572

Now let's get back to the show.

573

For me, community is is everything I know.

574

I've already said that a few times,

but like community

575

for yourself as a founder, as a CEO,

like it really matters.

576

And I've definitely hit this moment.

577

Can remember, I think it was about three

years into the business and I was like,

578

I feel like I was stuck, like,

okay, like we've grown and we kind of

579

we did plateau as a business. I was like,

I don't really.

580

I'm now beyond my ability to be a founder.

581

And it was interesting cause I was like,

I think it's probably time to hire a CEO

582

because, like,

I'm not a CEO, I'm a founder,

583

and there's a

there's a big difference, right?

584

Like there's and then I just want to give,

you know, you plateaued at that.

585

Like, what are you seeing.

586

The numbers

just kind of stall at that point.

587

Or was it is that what it was?

588

It was it was a few things.

589

One, numbers plateaued.

590

And so like not just like the, the,

591

the revenue the company was making,

but also like from the people

592

using the platform,

like everything was kind of

593

it wasn't shrinking,

but it was just kind of staying flat.

594

And but we knew that we had not reached

like market

595

maturity by any means, like we knew

there was plenty of room to grow.

596

And then when we were looking

at the development pipeline

597

and we were looking at

how we were actually maintaining

598

all the operations of the business, like,

look at all those things.

599

I'm like, okay, we're kind of flatlined

from a business perspective.

600

We're not sure what to work on.

601

And from operation standpoint,

we've kind of maximized,

602

like we've maxed out

all the tools we have.

603

And it was like that moment I was like,

well, something has to change, right?

604

Like and for me, like,

605

I didn't mean to step in is like the

the acting CEO or anything like that.

606

We just kind of

607

none of us have an ego in this business.

608

So me, Alicia and Jessie,

like none of us have,

609

there's never any people like, well,

I want to be the CEO

610

when it comes out point.

Like we just never had that.

611

I just kind of stepped into that

without really mean to.

612

And it was that moment, right.

613

You don't have a CEO before that.

614

Was it just literally just co-founders.

615

And we'll just we'll

we'll just build this together.

616

Everybody pitch in where

whatever hat needs to be worn that day.

617

And for three years you operated

just co-founders and.

618

Yeah.

619

Oh yeah.

620

Okay. That's and and yeah.

621

So and we're bootstrapped.

So it was the three of us that started.

622

We legally got buttoned up.

623

Jeff, I think I should say that here

in front of your presence

624

that the day we started it

was. I won't even forget it.

625

It was, March 10th, 2020, and,

I called up,

626

my, I had, like, a side hustle business

I had a lawyer for anyway.

627

And so, like, I call that person,

I'm like, hey, I'm changing everything.

628

Need some documentation

for the three of us to sign.

629

We signed.

We made all legal, so we're good.

630

Awesome. Oh, yeah.

631

We just decided, like, hey,

632

we're going to put $5,000 in this account

and hit the ground running.

633

And, and when we run out of that money,

we'll figure out what to do with it.

634

And thankfully, that money never ran out.

635

And I'm super grateful for that.

636

But like, back to that present day

637

I was sharing about, like,

we kind of hit that point.

638

And at that point I was like,

I think that I think we need to talk

639

to some other people.

640

Like, let's just start with that. Like,

who should we talk to?

641

And so for me, I started actively

seeking my own community.

642

So like, not the pod match me, but my own

community among some other founders.

643

And there's like plenty of masterminds

out there to help with this stuff.

644

There's also like localized

645

different groups and stuff like that

in most major cities at this point.

646

But for me, I was like, well, who's

647

who's someone who runs a business

the way I want to.

648

And so I just started seeking

those individuals out and that happened

649

to meet somebody in Jackson, Florida,

who is, he been doing it,

650

I think like 15 years longer than me

and a very successful brand.

651

He ran it

the way I liked it, like to be running.

652

I just tried to seek out,

to be a friend to this guy.

653

So I did my best to help him any chance

I got

654

and eventually built out a friendship.

655

And he introduced me to many other people

that are much further along than me.

656

But I started

just getting around other people

657

and talking

and sharing very transparently.

658

These individuals just like,

659

hey, here's where I'm at, here's

what I'm struggling with.

660

And the biggest thing to open my eyes,

actually, Jeff, to realizing that, like,

661

I could go further

662

was the fact that many individuals

said, oof, yeah, that's a tough problem.

663

And I was like, wait,

you're saying that's a tough problem?

664

I'm like, hold on. You know, like that

actually gave me a lot of confidence.

665

So I'm like, oh, I'm not just stupid,

you know, like this, this way

666

more qualified person than me says,

oh, well,

667

that's actually a pretty

that's a tough problem to overcome.

668

And it kind of gave me this freedom to be

like, well, then I can still be creative.

669

I can sell solutions.

670

If someone is far along,

as this person says, that's tough.

671

Like in many ways, that boost,

weirdly enough, was almost all I needed.

672

And of course, I got some very pointed

wisdom on how to to do things.

673

And so having that tight knit

674

community myself has been a game changer

for me over the years.

675

That that almost seems counterintuitive

when when you go to somebody smart

676

and you take them a problem, you're like,

I'm going to get an answer here.

677

And they say, you

know, Alex, I'm not sure that's tough.

678

I think it's

I think some people would would react to

679

that and be like, oh crap, I'm in trouble.

680

Like like I came here to get an answer.

681

I'm not getting an answer.

682

I'm just gonna shut this thing down.

683

Like, I think it would frustrate them.

684

You know, it would, but but you took it

and you said,

685

oh, this is this is encouraging.

686

I came to a smart person.

I got a hard problem.

687

They don't have to solve it either.

688

You know, it was it kind of like, well,

689

if they don't have to solve it,

maybe we are on the same level.

690

Maybe.

691

Maybe I'm coming up against the things

that that they're coming up against.

692

And you know, this is a

this is a tough problem for anybody.

693

I think that, yes,

it might be a tough for anybody.

694

But the reality is,

I think that these individuals

695

took the time to really invest in me

and get to know me.

696

And I think that they just knew that

if I said that,

697

they're like, if I say this to Alex,

he'll go figure it out type of thing.

698

And I think it was a little bit of that of

like just playing to my own strengths.

699

And most of the time

these individuals, like,

700

would push me in the right direction

or help me a little bit.

701

But it was never it's

702

never been a handout type of relationship,

which is it's good because they know me.

703

If you kind of hand it out to me, like I

probably won't even do it right like that.

704

It's harder for me to implement.

705

If you're more like,

here's an idea, Alex, go run with that.

706

Like,

I'm much better in and much more fulfilled

707

and much better in that scenario.

708

So I think these individuals

just kind of knew who I was.

709

And I meant I do want to clarify,

none of them like, left me hanging.

710

Like that's a tough problem.

711

They kind of then would kind of be like,

well, here's a few scenarios here.

712

But for me, it's funny. I still go back.

713

All I can really hear is the fact

they said that was a tough problem.

714

I'm like, I can, I can do it.

I know I can now, right?

715

So and it was definitely not like I,

I'm at their level.

716

I don't know if I'll ever arrive

717

because they're also getting better

and better and climbing. Right.

718

So to come to you up

it like definitely got you energized.

719

You're like,

oh well, yeah, I can do this 100%.

720

That's a good way to say

that's exactly what it did for me.

721

I love I love that

722

I want to, if you don't mind,

I'd love to hear a little bit

723

more about how you built your network,

because I think for some people

724

it doesn't come naturally at all.

725

You know, they're like,

I need everybody here, I need mentors,

726

and then they're like

30 years later, like,

727

maybe I should have got some mentors

somewhere along the way, right?

728

Like, but you seem like an outgoing guy.

729

Was this an easy thing for you

730

to just go and make friends,

just go and find mentors?

731

Was it like one month to the next?

732

You're like,

now I got this network of mentors

733

and I'm just going

to, you know, go to them with problems.

734

And yeah, I'm

sure a lot of them left your hands,

735

but they work through them, present

the problems, have

736

productive conversations and, you know,

and now you benefit,

737

you know, forever

from these great relationships.

738

Is that how it worked?

739

I wish no, I'd even say my main mentor.

740

I'd say it took me two years to, like,

really break to, like, kind of break

741

through with, with the guy,

742

even get like

any sort of reaction from him

743

and know that was being annoying

744

knocking on his door

every day or anything like that.

745

It was just like, you can kind of,

I don't know, I've got to.

746

I try to have a little bit of,

747

social, intelligence to know when, like,

748

okay, there's not really any like too soon

you'll let me back up, slow down.

749

We just met type of scenario, right.

750

But so for me, for years, I'd say,

751

although I'm outgoing,

I do like a big personality.

752

And so for some people, they're like,

oh, dude, calm down, slow down.

753

Right. And so I'm aware of that.

754

I've learned to tone that down

a little bit over the years.

755

But I really did struggle.

756

I'm like, I don't know how anyone finds

a mentor, finds a coach.

757

It was actually,

one of Michael Hyatt's books.

758

And I'm blanking on it's called

759

it might have been even mentor mentorship

might have been the name of the book.

760

It's kind of his philosophy again,

Michael Hyatt,

761

someone I've been following for years.

762

So he's kind of been like a a virtual

digital mentor for me for a long time.

763

And when I read that, I just realized

like that it really comes into play is

764

you can't just sort of be like,

Will you be my mentor?

765

Will you help me?

766

It starts with you

leading with some form of value.

767

And so, like the main individual

who I would consider would be like my, my

768

main mentor,

769

it was something I wasn't even aware of.

770

Like we were in each other's ecosystems

a little bit, but it turns out

771

I interviewed the person

he considers to be his main mentor.

772

I had no idea they were connected.

I had no idea they knew each other.

773

And I get a text message from the guy

I want mentoring me one day

774

and he's like, hey,

I heard your conversation with Dr.

775

can I call you?

776

And I was like, yes, absolutely.

777

So we got on a call and he's like, man,

I listened to every single.

778

I don't know if you know who DHHS is,

but I mean, David Hanna, Meyer Hansen.

779

But if you like, go to Google

and type in DHHS

780

who shows up,

which I think it's kind of a big deal.

781

So but the people that follow do they

they don't, like, follow him a little bit.

782

Like if he posts something on the internet

in a website that only one person ever

783

visited, they all find it

like it's just kind of who they are.

784

And so but he told me,

the guy's name is Tom.

785

And Tom goes, Alex.

786

He goes,

787

I have listened to every single piece

of content that this guy's ever put out.

788

Everyone has ever interviewed him.

789

He goes, I've never heard anyone

do it like you did.

790

And so that was actually the moment

that we kind of struck up this, like,

791

more mutual, relationship

where he felt like I added value to him

792

because he's like,

793

I've been wondering some of

those questions, and no one's ever like,

794

I've never had the chance

to ask him those questions.

795

And like, now you have.

796

And you voiced them really well.

797

So we were able to build that out

and so for me, like finding mentors

798

took a lot of patience

and me realizing like,

799

I've got to put some skin in the game here

to make it happen.

800

That one was like weirdly connected

with other people.

801

It's just been like, hey,

is there something I can do to to

802

to help you out is typically what I begin

with,

803

just to see if there's some way

to start building a relationship.

804

Well, I think it goes

back to what we were talking about before,

805

just this whole emphasis on community,

right?

806

You might not have intended to use that

that recording in that episode

807

with the to gain a relationship

with a potential mentor you're looking at.

808

But but by building the community,

they kind of network effects happen.

809

And all of a sudden you're

you're in a position where

810

you have a chance to connect with somebody

that you wanted to connect with.

811

You know, that's maybe,

maybe isn't the most direct way to do it.

812

But but it's probably one of the stronger

ways, right?

813

You've now got somebody reach out to you

who you otherwise would have had to

814

say, hey, do you have

815

can I bug you for a few minutes like,

I don't I don't want to impose.

816

And they're like, Alex,

I want to sit down, talk.

817

Right. Yeah.

818

Like, you know, it might sound strangely

not too connected,

819

but the reality is I'm good at follow up,

and I think that that's the key here.

820

Like, if you ask someone four years ago

that you might like,

821

hey, will you be my mentor?

822

And you never talk to them again,

even if, like,

823

you don't get at the answer you want,

I think that you're missing opportunity.

824

Tom only remembered who I was

825

because I had reached out

multiple times over the years.

826

Not saying we mentoring

where you mentor me, just being like, hey,

827

I enjoyed this, that you did.

828

Just making sure I'm like,

I don't need to be top of mind,

829

but I need to be enough in your mind

to know,

830

hey, I know someone was Alex's

phone number.

831

I like this, I want to talk to him,

832

but if I would have just that initial

interaction and nothing came from it,

833

if I would have just left it

at that two years later,

834

whatever

it was when he heard this interview,

835

he might not have even remembered

that we met, right?

836

They kept up with it.

837

I think that too many of us,

we give up too fast

838

and listen, that's a business thing.

839

That's a mentorship thing.

840

I think that there's a real lesson

841

in the fact of like, hey, relationships

take time to really develop.

842

I love that.

843

Has the journey been pretty similar for,

844

Alicia and who was your other co-founder

just yesterday?

845

Jesse I space his name. Sorry.

846

No good. Has it been a pretty similar,

847

trajectory for them on the team?

848

I mean, is it everyone's kind of

going down the same path, or have they had

849

unique experiences from you because of

maybe your your role versus theirs?

850

Or you seem to be very much the face

of, of the company from what I've seen.

851

Like what's their experience been like.

852

Yeah.

So I can only speak so much for them.

853

But from we we are a close group.

854

We have two calls per week.

855

So Mondays and Wednesdays

we do a call together.

856

And so and then both our families are

friends like we've known job.

857

We were in each other's weddings

858

like 12 or I guess 2012 and 2011

I think is what it was.

859

And so like,

we've known each other a long time.

860

So whenever like we try to get together

outside of work as well.

861

And, which Jesse's getting ready

to move to the same city

862

that we're in, Jacksonville, Florida,

which I'm thrilled about.

863

It's really nice to all

be in the same place.

864

But for from what I can speak,

I would say for Alicia,

865

she runs on the operations side

and she's very, very gifted at that.

866

And so for her,

867

I think it's been a really it's

been a great gig for her for a while.

868

I know she got a little bit burnt out

just because of the amount of work

869

that it was, like as

we were building out the systems, the,

870

the different tools that we use, like

all that stuff, like for a little bit,

871

it was a lot.

872

And I'll admit in some, some days

873

it's obviously can still be a lot,

but not like that where it's like, hey,

874

we went from like nothing to growing

really fast.

875

And now, like,

we don't have the infrastructure

876

to hold this type of thing

877

and being someone who built that out,

I think that that was probably her biggest

878

pain point.

879

But I think for the most part, I watch her

and she's in a

880

she goes into a pretty good flow state,

like she can just get it done.

881

That's

one of the things I admire about her.

882

While keeping the whole foundation

of the company really solid.

883

And on Jesse side,

I think that he had to learn

884

to become a better developer,

which is so funny

885

because he's actually like, he's

so gifted.

886

He, his job was like a big,

big government job.

887

So, like, there's only so much can be said

about before he, he got into this, like

888

what he was doing, the amount of money

he was making is, like, absolutely absurd.

889

Like,

I didn't know anyone had jobs like that.

890

And so but the funny thing is he's like,

891

yeah, I've had to learn quite a bit

since I started this.

892

He goes,

I didn't expect to learn anything.

893

He's like, I expected this.

894

So like kind of without saying it,

he almost said,

895

I expected to make me dumber

when it came to developing.

896

But he's had he's had to learn a lot

and, he's always stepped up the challenge.

897

And I really admire that about him.

898

So I think for for Jesse,

he loves to be challenged by his work

899

and he didn't really expect

that to be the case.

900

But he has found it to be challenging.

901

And I think the right amount

of challenging

902

where he's able to make traction

and not get burnt out by it.

903

But, I think he's had a really

fun experience. And for me,

904

as I've gotten better about understanding

905

how to prioritize the right work,

that's actually good for the company,

906

I think he's learned to enjoy it

even more,

907

because for a while it's like, oh, Alex's,

here he is again, random, complex ideas.

908

And now it's very structured,

very pointed.

909

Yeah, a lot of data goes into any decision

910

we make of the order

of how we're going to develop things.

911

And I think he likes that because he knows

it's going to yield a result,

912

because we basically have the data to show

that this will actually be good.

913

And it wasn't

just like a off the whim idea.

914

So I think for them,

915

we've all had different paths

because we do such different work.

916

There's almost no overlap in

anything that we do.

917

But I can say the one thing

that's in common is like,

918

although we've gone through

what ups and downs like as a team,

919

we've had a blast

and really enjoyed it along the way.

920

That's awesome.

921

And not everybody can say

that about working with friends or family.

922

So right, as a general job

and I and I work with

923

I work very closely with my wife.

924

She runs the operations of our law firm.

She does a fantastic job.

925

She's way smarter than I am.

926

And it works for us most of the time.

927

So, That's great.

Nothing. I'm complaining.

928

She's got lots of reason to complain

about the stuff I do, probably, but, so I.

929

But I know it doesn't work for everybody,

so kudos to you for for having

930

a good working relationship

in the business and outside the business.

931

That's fantastic.

932

Yeah. Thank you.

933

Well,

I'm going to ask you the hard question

934

and then we'll give you a little bit

of a chance to think about it.

935

So, before the show, we were asking,

936

you know, you brought up the concept of,

well, where would I be in five years?

937

I'm not going to ask you personally

where you're going to be in five years,

938

although you can answer that if you want.

939

I'd like to know where you'd like to see

pod match in the next five years.

940

Assuming that it.

941

Like, do you have another,

you know, step like, step function growth?

942

Do you just keep on the path you're on?

943

I'd love to know where it's at,

944

but I want to give you a moment

945

just for your brain

to think about that in the background,

946

because in the meantime, I'd like

I'd like to know

947

what's the advice that you would give

somebody who's building a business?

948

They're further behind you on this,

you know, maybe a similar path.

949

And they've hit some of these rocks,

these bumps in the road.

950

Maybe they haven't,

you know, been able to navigate their team

951

or they haven't been able

to find the right mentors, or

952

they've gotten a little bit of negative

feedback from their from their customers.

953

Like like what?

954

What are the things that you would tell

somebody like that

955

if they came to you and said, I need,

I need, I need a little advice, Alex.

956

The first thing I'd say is, is remembering

the fact that you can't do it alone.

957

There's the old Helen

Keller quote that says, alone I can

958

we can do so little,

but together we can do so much.

959

And I think it's important

that, like, hey,

960

just know

you're never going to do it alone.

961

And I think the first step would be

if someone's actually coming to me,

962

it means that they acknowledge

that. Right.

963

And so it's a good step

if you're coming to someone else saying,

964

hey, I'm kind of struggling here like that

little transparency matters.

965

And also the realization of,

966

like, I'm not going to be some rock star,

does it on my own.

967

An example this

I know we all, we all praise Elon Musk,

968

and I'm not trying

to sell his achievements short.

969

He has an incredible team around him.

970

Like the most brilliant people

on the planet surround him.

971

It's not because he's

some brainiac genius.

972

It does everything by himself.

973

He's got countless people that are like

the smartest people on the planet, right?

974

Yeah.

975

And there's been plenty others

976

leaders like that

have that have modeled that really well.

977

And so we're

not going to be able to do it alone.

978

And so I think for me, beyond that, it's

important people articulate what matters.

979

So like if someone to me

like Alex, I'm really struggling.

980

Like I just don't know what to do.

981

I'd be like, well, where are you at today?

982

And most people

are not gonna have an answer for that.

983

Well, where could you go tomorrow?

984

They're not gonna have an answer for that.

985

And so for me, I think it's super

important to have this one key metric.

986

The key metric is the one that actually

987

is the trigger for everything else.

988

And so like inside of our business

I'll share what I mean.

989

Like I don't actually track our measure,

our monthly reoccurring revenue.

990

Most software companies

that's what they want to see.

991

What's your churn rate. What's this

what's that like.

992

There's all these numbers

we use in software.

993

And when I really started diving in that

I found a little bit overwhelming.

994

And it took my attention away

from the community element.

995

And I was like, I don't want that.

996

I was like, so what metric triggers

the rest of these to work?

997

Well, what it comes down to

998

when our business is interviews

completed on the platform,

999

the average number of interviews

complete on a platform per day.

00:40:54,291 --> 00:40:56,791

And so I tell people like,

if you can find your one metric

00:40:56,791 --> 00:40:59,291

and have a goal assigned to that

or some sort of milestone

00:40:59,291 --> 00:41:02,375

that you want to reach, knowing that

and saying, I've built everything else

00:41:02,375 --> 00:41:05,583

to work well, if I can get this number

right now, you can share something.

00:41:05,583 --> 00:41:07,875

It's like, okay to have more interviews

completed every day.

00:41:07,875 --> 00:41:09,500

Pod match what we need to do.

00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:11,083

Can you make sure more people

are connecting faster?

00:41:11,083 --> 00:41:13,083

Right. Like, how do we be the right people

getting together?

00:41:13,083 --> 00:41:14,166

How did you discover that?

00:41:14,166 --> 00:41:16,500

That seems like

like I wouldn't know where to look.

00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:17,666

What did you just go through?

00:41:17,666 --> 00:41:18,291

The numbers are like,

00:41:18,291 --> 00:41:21,291

hey, listen, this number correlates

to all the other positives of happening.

00:41:21,416 --> 00:41:24,250

Or was it like, how did you

how did you decide that in your business?

00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,791

I know there's a little bit of a tangent

from what we're.

00:41:25,791 --> 00:41:26,041

Yeah.

00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:27,916

Now, but I'm super curious.

00:41:27,916 --> 00:41:30,291

Yeah. So for me, like I do love strategy.

00:41:30,291 --> 00:41:33,083

I love numbers like that

stuff is fun for me to dive into.

00:41:33,083 --> 00:41:38,041

And so I've been using Excel since before

it was like really like mainstream.

00:41:38,041 --> 00:41:39,291

It's like I understand it,

use it really well.

00:41:39,291 --> 00:41:42,083

So I put everything into an Excel

spreadsheet, start diving down,

00:41:42,083 --> 00:41:45,041

seeing like if this moves what,

what else moves. Right.

00:41:45,041 --> 00:41:46,875

And so this is before

we had clean metrics.

00:41:46,875 --> 00:41:48,750

Now we have metrics

built around this. Yeah.

00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:49,625

But for me I was like okay.

00:41:49,625 --> 00:41:51,166

Like what's the one thing

I finally got down to.

00:41:51,166 --> 00:41:52,750

And I'm like,

if the interviews are being complete,

00:41:52,750 --> 00:41:55,500

if that number is climbing,

then pod match is healthy

00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:59,333

from a churn rate perspective,

from a mirror perspective,

00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:02,833

from from the people actually

using the platform versus being inactive.

00:42:03,041 --> 00:42:06,041

And so my goal is just to to grow

that number.

00:42:06,208 --> 00:42:07,916

So interviews complete is what I look at.

00:42:07,916 --> 00:42:11,166

And yes, I monthly I go through

and look at all the numbers and data.

00:42:11,875 --> 00:42:15,041

But I just know if I track this one

and that number is climbing,

00:42:15,041 --> 00:42:16,708

it means we're actually really healthy.

00:42:16,708 --> 00:42:20,125

And so I continue there's a percentage

needs to grow and stuff like that.

00:42:20,125 --> 00:42:21,291

Right. But that's what I track.

00:42:21,291 --> 00:42:24,625

And so when I have a problem and I'm

bringing it to people that are mentors

00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:28,041

or to to anybody in my life, I'm realizing

I need help.

00:42:28,041 --> 00:42:30,083

It's when that number

seems to be struggling

00:42:30,083 --> 00:42:31,666

and then I can kind of reverse engineer.

00:42:31,666 --> 00:42:33,375

It's like, okay, well,

what needs to happen?

00:42:33,375 --> 00:42:34,958

Like where's the friction point? Right?

00:42:34,958 --> 00:42:36,666

And more interviews being completed.

00:42:36,666 --> 00:42:39,041

And so we look at our kind of

like the flywheel approach.

00:42:39,041 --> 00:42:41,166

Have you heard of that Jeff. Like yeah

okay.

00:42:41,166 --> 00:42:42,875

So the flywheel basically like the faster

00:42:42,875 --> 00:42:44,916

flywheel spins, the more powerful it gets.

00:42:44,916 --> 00:42:46,250

We look at is three prong.

00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:48,791

It's marketing,

it's conversion, it's retention.

00:42:48,791 --> 00:42:50,125

And so like if our interviews complete

00:42:50,125 --> 00:42:51,833

are not claiming

we want to, we look at those

00:42:51,833 --> 00:42:53,666

three things and say okay

is there a marketing problem.

00:42:53,666 --> 00:42:55,375

Conversion problem is a retention problem.

00:42:55,375 --> 00:42:59,291

Like what is where is the weakest link

to keeping this thing spinning faster

00:42:59,291 --> 00:43:00,583

so we can grow that number?

00:43:00,583 --> 00:43:01,458

I personally look at that.

00:43:01,458 --> 00:43:03,416

That's again

that's every month I'm looking at that

00:43:03,416 --> 00:43:05,916

and I'm tracking that and figuring out

like where is the pain point.

00:43:05,916 --> 00:43:06,625

Right now?

00:43:06,625 --> 00:43:07,833

And there's always gonna be

a different one.

00:43:07,833 --> 00:43:09,875

It's always evolving and changing

whichever one's weaker.

00:43:09,875 --> 00:43:12,875

So just focus on it, fix that one

and then see what happens next.

00:43:13,166 --> 00:43:16,875

Yeah, that's probably more technical than

I was supposed to get it, but I love it.

00:43:16,875 --> 00:43:17,500

Somebody

00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:21,875

and I hope that there's somebody in data

analytics that listened to this podcast

00:43:22,166 --> 00:43:25,333

and says, I gotta get Alex on

so we can dive into the numbers here.

00:43:25,666 --> 00:43:27,500

I want to listen to that episode myself.

00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:30,500

So so that's fantastic. I love it.

00:43:30,583 --> 00:43:33,250

So yeah, and I know I kind of took us off

00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:36,958

the off track from the

from what you would tell other people.

00:43:38,041 --> 00:43:38,916

But let's get to your

00:43:38,916 --> 00:43:41,958

let's get to that last question

now, five years from now,

00:43:41,958 --> 00:43:45,500

what does what does this look like

for you, for your team, for the company?

00:43:46,083 --> 00:43:47,875

Where would you see yourself?

00:43:47,875 --> 00:43:48,166

Yeah.

00:43:48,166 --> 00:43:51,625

So for me obviously growing that interview

completed number.

00:43:51,625 --> 00:43:53,625

Right. Like that's

that's the big metric there.

00:43:53,625 --> 00:43:56,625

But for me I've really in the last

00:43:57,166 --> 00:44:01,583

365 days at time of recording this,

I went to a ton of podcasting events.

00:44:01,583 --> 00:44:03,833

I went to meet ups, I've talked to people

online, done virtual.

00:44:03,833 --> 00:44:04,875

So I've done it all.

00:44:04,875 --> 00:44:09,750

And I'm realizing there is a huge shift

to community centric business.

00:44:10,458 --> 00:44:12,958

And so for me,

I know that the next five years

00:44:12,958 --> 00:44:14,458

and it won't take all that time,

00:44:14,458 --> 00:44:18,000

but I think to really get a true market

adoption to it is going to take a while

00:44:18,291 --> 00:44:21,166

for us to shift our focus

more and more to community.

00:44:21,166 --> 00:44:22,000

And so like for us,

00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,000

that means teaching people

how to be a good affiliate for Pod match.

00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:29,250

It means actually having community events

in person and also virtual.

00:44:29,250 --> 00:44:32,250

It means having we call our legacy team,

which is the people that want to

00:44:32,583 --> 00:44:34,958

be part of the pod match,

evangelist, street team type of thing.

00:44:34,958 --> 00:44:37,500

Or hey, like the people that are out there

promoting it,

00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:39,333

we have a network inside a pod match,

00:44:39,333 --> 00:44:41,541

and we're getting ready

to do some other micro meetups and ways

00:44:41,541 --> 00:44:44,250

that people can just collaborate together

inside the platform.

00:44:44,250 --> 00:44:46,208

We just launched a CRM inside of it.

00:44:46,208 --> 00:44:47,416

I know I'm sharing a lot of things,

00:44:47,416 --> 00:44:49,416

but the whole idea here is in this next

five years,

00:44:49,416 --> 00:44:52,416

we want people to be able to say, pod

match is a community.

00:44:52,833 --> 00:44:55,166

I pay a membership for it

because it has a platform side,

00:44:55,166 --> 00:44:55,958

but as a community,

00:44:55,958 --> 00:44:58,958

first and foremost, as connecting me

with other podcast guest and host.

00:44:58,958 --> 00:45:01,958

Yeah, business partners

and the people that I just needed to meet.

00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,958

And so we're really doing our best

to turn out that

00:45:03,958 --> 00:45:06,083

that community hub or ecosystem.

00:45:06,083 --> 00:45:07,125

And so in the next five years,

00:45:07,125 --> 00:45:09,208

I see us really being able

to achieve that in this world.

00:45:09,208 --> 00:45:12,375

That's just the digital world

that is just starving

00:45:12,375 --> 00:45:15,916

for some form of real human connection

like it never has before.

00:45:16,125 --> 00:45:19,083

We want to really be at the forefront

of helping make this a reality,

00:45:19,083 --> 00:45:21,875

so that people can follow it

beyond our business as well.

00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:25,500

I love that, and it's you know,

I think I've heard people suggest

00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:31,041

that community is that human element

that I will not be able to, to replicate.

00:45:31,041 --> 00:45:31,375

Right.

00:45:31,375 --> 00:45:32,541

And so,

00:45:32,541 --> 00:45:33,750

we can sit on our,

00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:36,958

our digital therapist all day long

if we want, but that's different from

00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:40,250

being in a community

of other people doing something,

00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:41,833

you know, aligned with your passion.

00:45:41,833 --> 00:45:44,083

So, I'm excited to see where it goes.

00:45:44,083 --> 00:45:48,166

And, I'm excited to keep participating in

that as it grows into more

00:45:48,166 --> 00:45:49,208

and more of a community. So

00:45:50,375 --> 00:45:50,875

thanks, Jeff.

00:45:50,875 --> 00:45:52,208

I appreciate that. Man. Means a lot.

00:45:52,208 --> 00:45:53,166

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:53,166 --> 00:45:55,125

No. And Alex,

I appreciate you coming on the show.

00:45:55,125 --> 00:45:56,458

It's it's been a lot of fun.

00:45:56,458 --> 00:46:01,500

I it's good to see,

you know, the real side of businesses

00:46:01,791 --> 00:46:04,791

and for other people

building businesses to see.

00:46:05,250 --> 00:46:06,833

Oh, I'm

not the only one going through this

00:46:06,833 --> 00:46:09,625

like like there's ups and downs

and everybody does it.

00:46:09,625 --> 00:46:14,291

And I think my takeaway is

or my suggestion for some of the listeners

00:46:14,291 --> 00:46:17,958

out there who I know struggle

a little bit more when they come up with

00:46:18,208 --> 00:46:22,083

come up against harder

questions, is to is to maybe

00:46:22,458 --> 00:46:26,125

think about the the perspective shift

that you introduced, at least for me.

00:46:26,125 --> 00:46:29,958

And that is oh,

I asked him if I presented my problem

00:46:29,958 --> 00:46:32,333

to some really smart person

instead of getting an answer.

00:46:32,333 --> 00:46:36,500

They said, yeah, that is a hard problem

and be able to walk away and say,

00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:39,500

oh my gosh, you know what? That should be?

00:46:39,666 --> 00:46:40,583

I'm going to have to figure out how

00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:43,583

that's encouraging to me,

because I think my attitude is

00:46:43,958 --> 00:46:48,500

I'm kind of tuned to be like, oh, well,

I was hoping for, you know, progress.

00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:49,708

But now I got to figure.

00:46:49,708 --> 00:46:51,041

So I got a little bit of work

00:46:51,041 --> 00:46:53,791

to do on myself

to figure out that that right perspective.

00:46:53,791 --> 00:46:56,208

But I love it

and I'm going to work on it. So.

00:46:56,208 --> 00:46:58,416

Oh man, that's a that's a cool takeaway.

Thank you for sharing that.

00:46:58,416 --> 00:47:01,416

And I think that the encouragement

there is just like

00:47:01,458 --> 00:47:04,125

as CEOs as founders

like we're trail trailblazers.

00:47:04,125 --> 00:47:06,750

Like there's times when the trail gets

tough, like it gets scary.

00:47:06,750 --> 00:47:09,416

Right. But I said it earlier

in this conversation.

00:47:09,416 --> 00:47:11,125

Maybe it was like in the icebreaker round.

00:47:11,125 --> 00:47:14,041

But courage means being afraid

than doing what you have to do anyway.

00:47:14,041 --> 00:47:15,250

Yeah, if there's smart people around you

00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:16,208

and they haven't figured out yet,

00:47:16,208 --> 00:47:17,708

that means there's

a real opportunity there

00:47:17,708 --> 00:47:19,833

and there's a chance

for you to level yourself up.

00:47:19,833 --> 00:47:21,416

Let that be inspiring and encouraging.

00:47:21,416 --> 00:47:24,500

I know for me it has been and obviously

I'm going to go back and seek help, right?

00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:26,541

I'm going to use everything I can

to figure it out.

00:47:26,541 --> 00:47:29,125

But I now know, like,

oh man, I'm I'm trailblazing.

00:47:29,125 --> 00:47:30,125

Let's figure this thing out.

00:47:30,125 --> 00:47:32,791

Right? And so,

I'm glad you had a cool takeaway, Jeff.

00:47:32,791 --> 00:47:34,041

That's cool to hear. Yeah.

00:47:34,041 --> 00:47:37,625

And, not to not extend this too long,

but to add to that a little bit,

00:47:37,625 --> 00:47:40,708

the front lines issue, you know,

you know, when you're pushing that front,

00:47:41,125 --> 00:47:44,000

that frontline forward,

because of the courage

00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,000

you have to step out,

it's not just pushing it forward for you.

00:47:47,250 --> 00:47:50,083

If you've got this community mentality,

you're pushing that frontline forward

00:47:50,083 --> 00:47:52,083

for everybody. So I love this.

00:47:52,083 --> 00:47:53,500

So many takeaways here Alex.

00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:55,916

It's been it's

been fantastic chatting with you.

00:47:55,916 --> 00:47:58,333

And so I just want to say thank you.

00:47:58,333 --> 00:48:01,250

You know personally I'm really glad

to have a chance to talk with you.