Jody Fletcher helped lead Navy organizations of up to 45,000 people. His biggest leadership lesson was simple: how you treat people directly affects how they perform.

After nearly 30 years in the U.S. Navy—including service as a corpsman alongside Marine Corps Recon and MARSOC—Jody became a command master chief and senior enlisted advisor to two- and three-star generals.

In this episode of Whiskey & Wisdom, Jody joins Tyler Yaw and Chris Kellum to discuss the leadership principles behind his book, Good Humans Make Great Leaders.

Jody explains why leadership skills must be deliberately developed, what separates a good human from a merely effective performer, and why authority alone will never create a great team. The conversation covers self-awareness, boundaries, relationship-building, difficult personnel decisions, optimism, and the principle of “first do no harm.”

The crew also pours Jefferson’s Ocean Voyage 24 and debates whether aging bourbon at sea actually changes the flavor—or simply creates a better story.

If you lead a team, own a business, serve in the military, or want to become someone others can trust, this conversation is for you.

Subscribe to Whiskey & Wisdom for honest conversations with people building businesses, leading others, and making an impact.

Find Jody Fletcher’s book, Good Humans Make Great Leaders, wherever books are sold—and leave a review after reading.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Welcome and Guest Introduction

00:51 Jefferson’s Ocean Pour

02:04 Does the Voyage Change the Flavor?

04:14 Jody’s Navy Origin Story

06:09 From the Teams to Command Master Chief

08:17 Why Jody Stayed Past 20 Years

13:26 Learning Leadership Later in His Career

14:34 Officer vs. Enlisted Career Paths

19:50 Why Good Humans Make Great Leaders

23:06 How the Book Is Structured

24:52 Creating a Conversational Leadership Book

25:56 What Makes Someone a Good Human?

26:27 Assuming Positive Intent

27:07 Leadership, Boundaries, and Candy

27:37 Why Would Anyone Want to Lead?

28:50 Building the Super Team

30:22 First, Do No Harm

31:48 Hiring People and Making Hard Decisions

33:58 The Right Way to Let Someone Go

38:26 Defining Success After Military Service

43:38 Control the Controllables

44:56 The Discipline of Optimism

46:34 Where to Buy the Book

47:46 The Reality of Publishing a Book

50:25 Final Thoughts and Book Reviews

51:22 Jefferson’s Ocean Afterthought

#Leadership #MilitaryLeadership #WhiskeyAndWisdom

Welcome back to the Whiskey Wisdom Podcast everyone.

2

I am Tyler Yaw, your co-host, along

with our constant co-host, Chris Kellum.

3

WW: What's it?

4

Tyler: And today, our guest has

spent more than three decades

5

learning what leadership looks

like when the stakes are real.

6

Jody Fletcher served 30 years in

the United States Navy, leading

7

operate- special operations teams

in combat environments before

8

rising to command master chief,

the Navy's highest enlisted rank.

9

He went on to help lead organization

of more than 45,000 people alongside

10

senior military leaders around the world.

11

Today, Jody is an executive coach,

professor, and the author of

12

Good Humans Make Great Leaders.

13

His core belief is simple: people's

performance is directly connected

14

to how they are treated, and before

you can become a great leader, you

15

must first become a good human.

16

Jody, welcome to the

Whiskey Wisdom Podcast.

17

Jody: Thanks.

18

Appreciate it.

19

I'm happy to be here.

20

WW: Thank

21

Tyler: you.

22

Absolutely.

23

Thank you.

24

WW: And unironically, or ironically,

our whiskey today is Jefferson's Ocean.

25

Ah, there you go.

26

So Jefferson's, they take it, they

do special batches, and they put

27

it on ships and just cruise across.

28

They all do different voyages, so they age

at different temperatures and different

29

things that happen while it's at sea.

30

So, like, if it gets hit by, like,

hurricanes or storms or something,

31

the, the barrels get moved around

and jostled more versus sitting

32

still like in a rickhouse where

it's just consistent the whole time.

33

Yeah.

34

So the flavors are a little bit different.

35

But typically on the Jefferson's their

oceans options there are a kind of a mix.

36

It's a blend.

37

Mm-hmm.

38

But your nose should be more crème

brûlée, some tobacco, and sea spray.

39

And then flavor should be caramel light

brown sugar, cinnamon and some espresso.

40

Tyler: I like

41

WW: it.

42

So, yeah, I just think

it's kind of ironic.

43

Fitting.

44

That's kind of fun.

45

Yeah.

46

Tyler: Yeah.

47

It's like, look at that.

48

WW: But here, cheers,

49

Tyler: fellas.

50

Probably spent more time out on

the ocean than our whiskey did.

51

Jody: Cheers.

52

Tyler: Well, I don't know about that.

53

WW: I don't know.

54

Jody: Cheers.

55

Gentlemen

56

WW: You okay, sir?

57

In case you guys didn't

realize , Tyler and I have not

58

been together in, like, two months.

59

A long, long time.

60

Our drinking has kinda like so - Yeah.

61

Tyler: Yeah.

62

Also, I, it went down the wrong

pipe, and having whiskey go down

63

the wrong hole- That's not a

good thing, yeah … is not good.

64

That actually is one of the better

Jefferson Oceans that I've had.

65

WW: it's one of the…

66

So this is Voyage 24.

67

I always tell people, like, if you have

a bad voyage, just like if you have a bad

68

trip, you should just try a different one.

69

Mm-hmm.

70

Or try something different.

71

'Cause, like, each one of these…

72

Like, we got the 24, and my

wife was like, "I love this."

73

And then I had, like, a 26 at

one day, and it was like, "Eh."

74

Tyler: Wow.

75

WW: and they really do have, like,

drastically different flavor profiles

76

based on, like, how it was moved.

77

Tyler: I think it was, like,

five years ago I tried one.

78

WW: Mm-hmm.

79

Tyler: And I thought it was a terrible

whiskey, and I'm like, "I'm never gonna

80

have a Jefferson's Ocean ever again."

81

And then I think you brought

one on for a w- It was probably-

82

another podcast … it was this one.

83

Okay.

84

Yeah.

85

So that makes sense.

86

So I tried it.

87

I'm like, "Oh, this is

actually really good whiskey."

88

WW: Yeah.

89

Tyler: I think it's just really

funny how they put basically the same

90

juice inside that barrel, but I guess

the voyage does make a difference.

91

It

92

Jody: definitely- Have you all had

Old Poly Road Whiskey from Hawaii?

93

Tyler: I don't think I have.

94

Jody: My friend owns that company.

95

It's hard to get here 'cause

of, you know, shipping it in.

96

Yeah.

97

Yeah.

98

But if you ever get a chance, and I

don't have any right now, but next

99

time, if I get some, I'll have to-

Yeah … it's, it is fantastic.

100

Yeah.

101

It's his distillery's called

the Ko'olau Distillery.

102

Tyler: Oh, okay.

103

Okay.

104

Jody: Yeah.

105

Tyler: That's neat.

106

WW: I mean-

107

Tyler: Have

108

WW: to keep an eye out … we

like trying things from all over.

109

Jody: Yeah.

110

WW: Like, yes, we are spoiled

in the fact that, like, we get

111

to try, like, interesting stuff.

112

Stuff.

113

But, like, we do, like, blind barrels-

Mm … every quarter just to, like, see,

114

like, oh, hey, there is, like, small

distilleries and things that we would

115

typically never get our hands on- Yeah

116

because we're in North Carolina.

117

Jody: Yep, yep.

118

And that's…

119

'Cause I tried to order some.

120

You can order it online, but of

course you can't order it here.

121

Tyler: Right.

122

Yeah.

123

Jody: So I was like, "Who do

I know in South Carolina?"

124

Tyler: Exactly.

125

Yep.

126

We've had to pull that a few times.

127

Jody: Yeah, yeah.

128

WW: but tell us a little

bit about yourself.

129

I mean, Tyler gave you a really

pretty good introduction.

130

Jody: Yeah, I appreciate that.

131

That was a pretty,

132

WW: like- Yeah … broad

133

Jody: stroke.

134

Broad, yeah.

135

So, you know, name's Jodie Fletcher,

and I joined the military in

136

1992 12 days after I turned 18.

137

Oh, wow.

138

Well, I joined before that, obviously,

but I- Right … shipped off to

139

boot camp 12 days after I turned 18.

140

And it's kind of what I wanted to do.

141

My dad was a corpsman in the Navy,

which is- Oh, yeah … a medic-

142

Yep … which is what I became.

143

So I knew I wanted to go that route, and I

wanted to get into the special operations

144

stuff and just, you know, probably don't

have long enough to get into all of that.

145

Yeah.

146

But ended up doing the recon corpsman

thing when it was in its infancy.

147

Mm-hmm.

148

And then later we became MARSOC in 2006.

149

So I spent the first 20-plus years in that

community- deploying and doing all that

150

kind of stuff, and then became a command

master chief, which as you mentioned in

151

the intro is, you know, it's the Navy's

highest enlisted rank, and you serve as

152

a senior enlisted advisor to generals.

153

So, you know, you made the comment about-

Right … I think, I don't know if it

154

was on air or not, but that I probably

have more time on ship than the, than

155

the whiskey, and it, actually I don't.

156

Yeah.

157

Oh,

158

WW: okay.

159

Jody: I, I'm what I refer

to as a dirt sailor.

160

So, and the, the Marine

Corps is a part of the Navy.

161

Yeah.

162

They don't like to admit it, but they are.

163

Right.

164

Yeah.

165

And the Navy provides medical

and a few other things for them.

166

Part of that is, is the, the corpsman,

and so if you get with the Marines,

167

especially in the recon side, and

then later in the MARSOC side,

168

it's a very, very small community.

169

Right.

170

Tyler: Yes.

171

Jody: So I spent my entire

career with the Marine Corps.

172

Tyler: Oh, okay.

173

Oh, wow.

174

Jody: And anytime I was on the

ship, I was literally just with the

175

Marines as cargo going somewhere.

176

Yeah.

177

And so when people say, "Oh, you were in

the Navy, you know, blah, blah, blah."

178

And I'm like, "Hey, I know that

the pointy end goes that way."

179

Right.

180

You know, and they're gray,

and, and that's about it.

181

I get lost on the ships all the time, just

like the Marines did, be wandering around.

182

But the last part of my career, the last

three tours, I was a command master chief.

183

Oh, wow.

184

And I was working for two

and three-star generals.

185

So kind of at, even like at that- Yeah.

186

Yeah … very, very senior level, I guess.

187

And it was interesting because I really

when I was in the recon community and

188

the MARSOC community, at times working

teams as small as three or four people.

189

Mm-hmm.

190

And then the organization that I retired

out of had like 40 to 45,000 people.

191

I mean, it's basically

all of Camp Lejeune.

192

Tyler: Right.

193

Yeah.

194

Jody: So you kind of go from that seeing

the, the micro perspective of leadership

195

and super small teams- Mm-hmm … all the

way to really seeing behind the curtain.

196

Wow.

197

And I feel like that's what, you

know, when all this leadership

198

stuff kind of came up I'd come

back off my last deployment,

199

and I was gonna go to PA school.

200

Tyler: Mm.

201

Jody: And I became a command master chief

at MARSOC, and about a year into it, I

202

was like, "Wow, I really like doing this."

203

And I didn't anticipate loving that

job and that role as much as I did.

204

And so I just stayed in, and that's

when I left the community and

205

went to the division and then MEF,

which are on the conventional side.

206

Yeah.

207

Yeah.

208

And, you know what I mean?

209

I lost a fair bit of money because

I lost all my special pays.

210

Ah.

211

But I stayed in just because

I loved doing it so much.

212

I was getting paid to, you know, run

around with the boss and my counterpart,

213

the command sergeant major, and just

see what people were up to, what was

214

going on, and, and I think in the…

215

You know, I did a little over 29 years.

216

I didn't quite make 30.

217

I was exposed to thousands of different

teams and leaders and, and people.

218

So it, yeah, just kind of, you

know, all this stuff became

219

super fascinating for me.

220

And, you know, as I got into the,

writing the book, the impetus

221

was kind of like, I didn't…

222

I wish there'd been something like

that when I was a younger person.

223

Right.

224

This one is specifically kind

of geared toward young folks-

225

Okay … that are aspiring leaders,

brand new leaders, or leaders that

226

have never had any formal training.

227

Mm.

228

And not that, I mean, everybody will get

something out of this book, but that's,

229

that's who I kind of wrote this one for.

230

For, right.

231

And then I've got two

other books in my head.

232

We'll see how this one does.

233

WW: Yeah.

234

So question.

235

I know, like, just in the world and in

the military, like, there's good and

236

bad leadership, and a lot of people get

kind of y- you're staying in, you gotta

237

get promoted, or you're getting out.

238

Mm.

239

So what was that kind of point that

you were like, you know, was it I

240

see really good leaders and I want to

be one of those and lead people, or

241

was I saw a bad person and you were

like, "Mm, they weren't horrible,

242

but I want to be a better example"?

243

Jody: That's a great question, and

really my answer might disappoint.

244

No.

245

Yeah.

246

I don't know how I ended up where I did.

247

I joined because I wanted to

do medical stuff and special

248

operations and recon type stuff.

249

Yeah.

250

And that's what I did.

251

I fell into the leadership thing.

252

WW: Okay.

253

Jody: 100%.

254

And I would regularly sit in my office

when I was the old guy behind the desk-

255

and look around and think,

"How did I get here?"

256

And I kept waiting for the boss

to poke his head in the door

257

and be like, "All right, buddy.

258

We, we figured it out."

259

"You, like, you gotta get out of here."

260

So yeah, you're right.

261

There's, there's good leaders,

there's bad leaders, and that's

262

the beauty of the military.

263

It's such a melting pot.

264

Mm-hmm.

265

And we're, there's such a constant

turnover, so when I say I've been

266

exposed to thousands of leaders

and teams, it's not hyperbole.

267

Mm-hmm.

268

Literally, probably even more,

because everybody's getting turned

269

over at least every two years.

270

True.

271

Yeah.

272

So whether you just came in, the leader

came in, like, it's constant change.

273

So I've seen a lot of of good

and bad leadership, and there

274

was, there was nothing that, you

know, made me stay in other than

275

I was literally just having fun.

276

WW: Okay.

277

Jody: And once I hit 20, it was always

kind of the deal with my wife, as long

278

as I'm still having fun, and as long as

she and my daughter were like, "Okay, you

279

know, we're not over it," I would stay in.

280

WW: Okay.

281

Jody: And honestly, at that

29-year mark, I could've gone to

282

30 in the position that I was in.

283

We just, we were in COVID and just

coming out of it and all that stuff,

284

and they wanted me to stay in and,

and at least apply for this other

285

job, which would've taken me to 32

or 33, and I knew I didn't want that.

286

Right.

287

I was gonna say.

288

I knew I didn't want that.

289

But I, I was talking to my wife a lot,

and I was like, "You know, I don't know."

290

You know, and, and her answer was

always, "I'll support you in whatever

291

you wanna do," which was fantastic.

292

Mm.

293

And I said, "I know, and I, I love that,

and I appreciate it, but I need more."

294

And she said, "I've never seen

you this dissatisfied with work."

295

Tyler: Mm.

296

Jody: And I think it was

because we weren't out seeing

297

people because of COVID.

298

Oh.

299

WW: Yeah.

300

Tyler: Makes sense.

301

Jody: And so we were just-

Yeah … sitting in meetings all

302

day, and that was death for me.

303

WW: Sitting on- … Teams,

sitting in, like-

304

Jody: Yeah

305

… WW: room.

306

Yeah.

307

Jody: And, and not that the work wasn't

important, but what filled my soul- Mm-hmm

308

was really getting out

there and seeing everybody.

309

And when we weren't doing that, and I was

kind of close to the end, so I knew I was

310

gonna get out at 30, and then by leaving

when I did, it gave the opportunity for

311

this other guy to s- apply for the job.

312

Mm.

313

And that wasn't the reason, but

it was like the cherry on top.

314

It worked, yeah.

315

Because if I had stayed till 30, he

wouldn't have been able to even apply for

316

it- Yeah … just the way the cycle works.

317

WW: Gotcha, yeah.

318

Jody: and again, that wasn't the

reason, but it was definitely the cherry

319

on top, and I was just ready to go.

320

So that was the deal, 20, but I

just kept going and going and going.

321

WW: So when you hit 20, were

you already- I'm assuming you

322

were a master chief by then

323

Jody: I was.

324

I just picked up and I jumped back into

a team, so my 20-year anniversary was

325

on patrol on deployment in Afghanistan.

326

WW: Oh, wow.

327

Mm.

328

Tyler: Go

329

WW: figure.

330

Jody: It was, it was wild.

331

And that team, in fact, one

of the guys just retired last

332

night well, Friday- Yeah, okay

333

and, and we, I went to

the party last night.

334

But it was pretty wild because I

was the old guy on the team, and

335

just at the time I think there were

maybe 150 of us in the whole Navy.

336

And- Mm … I jumped back into a team to

kind of shuffle everybody to the left.

337

Mm.

338

'Cause the war was still

going pretty heavy- Yeah

339

and so guys were, like, rotating,

rotating and doing back to back, and

340

if I jumped back in it kind of pushed

everybody to give a little bit of a break.

341

A little breather.

342

Yeah.

343

Yeah.

344

And it was, every team I've been

in has been amazing, but there's

345

just something special about that

team, and I think also because I

346

was way older than everybody else.

347

Mm.

348

And so I had a little

bit of old man wisdom.

349

And sometimes things that would

normally get you, you know, upset or

350

whatever- Yeah … I was not as upset.

351

I, it was just a very,

very cool team to be in.

352

Yeah, so- Yeah … my 20

years was spent on patrol.

353

Tyler: Wow.

354

WW: Yeah, I know it takes a while, like,

to get there, and I've seen, I follow

355

a bunch of people in the military,

'cause I was not staying in that long.

356

But it was like, you always hear

people, "I gotta make it to 20."

357

Jody: Yeah.

358

WW: And then you very rarely hear

people, like, go past 20 unless they're

359

in, like, the reserves or something.

360

Yeah.

361

So I'm, I was just curious as

to, like, where you were at

362

which pushed you w- past that.

363

Jody: I loved what I was doing.

364

Yeah.

365

I loved who I was doing it with.

366

I was never in…

367

I mean, if you join the military you're

not doing it for the money, right?

368

WW: Right.

369

Jody: You know?

370

And, and, and and not that you can't make

a good life with it- Mm, mm … right?

371

But it's not corporate.

372

WW: No.

373

Tyler: Right.

374

Jody: And so, yeah, I mean,

I was just having fun.

375

That's the straight

answer is I was just- Yeah

376

having fun doing what I was doing.

377

WW: Nice.

378

Tyler: The last 10 years after the

20-year mark, is that really where your,

379

you honed in your leadership skills?

380

Yes.

381

Is that kind of where that came from?

382

And then how did that occur?

383

Jody: Again, it probably just- I,

I don't think it was until the last

384

probably six or seven years- Okay

385

that I started to deliberately focus on

it and say, "Oh, there's something here,"

386

and I started to read more and all that.

387

And then, of course, look at things

retrospectively- Mm-hmm … and say,

388

"Well, what did I learn when I was

younger, and what mistakes did I make?"

389

And that's where I started to

kind of coalesce all of that- Mm

390

and pay attention to it.

391

Tyler: Right.

392

Jody: When I was younger, it's there

and you notice it, and I think it's

393

more from a looking up at people you

consider mentors or great leaders, to

394

your point- Mm … or horrible leaders.

395

And then as I got older and saw behind

the curtain, I was able to kind of

396

reflect and say, "Was that person really

a bad leader or was I just young?"

397

Tyler: Mm.

398

Jody: And nine times out of

10 they were a bad leader.

399

Yeah.

400

There was probably a couple times over I

was like, "Okay, I was just a young jerk."

401

Yeah.

402

Yeah.

403

You know, at that point I

was, you know, being young and

404

silly and entitled or whatever.

405

But yeah, yeah.

406

Tyler: So not being in the military,

it seems like there's a pretty big

407

difference between like the two and

three-star generals and stuff like that.

408

How…

409

Like, how do they get…

410

Well, what I'm saying is like

how do they get to that point?

411

'Cause it seems like every time I

talk to someone who is in the military

412

at a high level, they make it sound

like it's impossible to get there.

413

Jody: That is a very…

414

Once you get into the s- you know,

the, the flag level, the stars- Right

415

one, two and three and four, that's- The,

you know, the, the pinnacle of all of it.

416

And then within that, you're right.

417

Mm-hmm.

418

The one and two stars is kind of

like the ju- you know, I mean, it's

419

still flag level officers, right?

420

Yeah.

421

Right.

422

But there's like the junior flag level

officers to some degree, and then- Right

423

the three and the four star

is, is really, I mean, there's

424

just a very, very few of them.

425

Tyler: Right.

426

Jody: yeah, it was…

427

What was the question exactly?

428

I, I think I got lost there.

429

Like-

430

Tyler: Oh, yeah.

431

How, how does someone get to that type

of level, and why does it seem like

432

there's such a big- Yeah … break

between kind of like the high level

433

that you were versus that high level?

434

Jody: You've got a-

435

WW: His level's still very high.

436

Tyler: Well, no, I get

that, but I'm saying like-

437

Jody: Well, they're two different paths

438

… Tyler: that's what I'm saying.

439

Yeah, yeah.

440

Yeah, yeah.

441

So they're two- I, yeah, I

completely asked the question wrong.

442

W- how do you choose the different paths?

443

Jody: Well-

444

' Tyler: Cause, like, or why, or why would

someone go one way as opposed to another?

445

Jody: Officers come in

with a college degree.

446

Right.

447

And that's so you're

running that officer track.

448

Tyler: Ah, okay.

449

Jody: I came in right out of high school

as a young, dumb idiot and didn't go to

450

college until later when the military-

Yeah … was paying for it, you know,

451

at night and all that kind of stuff.

452

So it's a completely different path.

453

Tyler: I see.

454

Jody: Okay.

455

Now, at some point, you can

jump from the enlisted side

456

to the officer side if you…

457

I, you know, once I got my degree, I

could have easily- Mm … gone over.

458

It's not what I wanted to do.

459

It's not what I was passionate about.

460

Right.

461

But yeah, once you get up to that

level, I mean, it takes a long time.

462

And for those, you know, one through

four star officers, most of them

463

have been in well over 30 years.

464

WW: Oh, wow.

465

Jody: Yeah.

466

They're, I mean, very, very senior people.

467

Yes.

468

And very seasoned.

469

WW: Right.

470

I will say from what I've seen is like-

There's boards and there's lists of

471

people that are all applying for the

same job, and you have to have enough

472

points and enough time in to move up.

473

And then once you get to that top

level, everyone's been in for so long.

474

Tyler: True.

475

WW: It's like, what sets you apart?

476

And whatever you train,

'cause, like, you could be…

477

I, I know people, just like with

the command master sergeant is,

478

or master chief, you can have

that title, but what are you over?

479

Like, you can be- Oh

480

over just, like, just

like in, in corporate.

481

Like, you're a store manager

of, like, a mall store-

482

Tyler: Mm.

483

WW: That only does, like, $2 million.

484

But then you upgrade and you

get promoted to a, a manager

485

of, like, a $5 million store.

486

Ah, okay.

487

And then you get promoted to,

like, a $10 million store.

488

And those are, yes, they're all

considered the same title, but

489

they're st- drastically different

things that you're in charge of- Ah

490

and what you're maintaining.

491

Okay.

492

I didn't realize that.

493

Tyler: Yeah.

494

Jody: And so, like- Okay … there's

a lot of master chiefs, E-9s,

495

or just E-9s in general.

496

Right.

497

And then to your point, Chris,

you kind of start, it's who you're

498

working for, and that's the level.

499

And so working at the two and

three-star level, you're within

500

the top, really probably within

the top 50 of the whole Navy-

501

Tyler: Oh, wow

502

Jody: working at that level.

503

Tyler: Got

504

Jody: it.

505

There are other command master

chiefs that are working at the,

506

like, you know, 04, 05, 0…

507

Ah, okay.

508

Kind of climbing that.

509

And to be fair, the path that we

take out of as, as corpsmen or

510

sailors that serve with Marines-

511

Tyler: Mm-hmm

512

… Jody: most of us are not gonna go to an

05 or 06 command master chief command.

513

I think some are now.

514

Right.

515

I have friends that, one of my buddies

retired as a command master chief

516

of a destroyer- Mm … recently.

517

Yeah.

518

Which is really cool.

519

That's pretty cool.

520

Tyler: Yeah.

521

Jody: And that's an 05

or 06 level command.

522

So he didn't get up into,

you know, the flag level.

523

Tyler: Right.

524

Jody: it's a little more direct route

for some of us, so it's not as…

525

And I'm only putting that out 'cause

other command master chiefs might be

526

listening to this like, "Yeah, but he

didn't do an 04, you know, 05 command."

527

Right.

528

He went straight to the,

the flag level officer.

529

Yeah.

530

I see.

531

But it's just because of where we work

and our specific skill set, I guess.

532

Tyler: Right.

533

Okay.

534

That makes a lot more sense then.

535

WW: Yeah.

536

Tyler: Okay.

537

That's what…

538

I, I understood what you were- I was

like, I was trying to, like, figure out

539

where these things are going, but okay.

540

Yeah.

541

WW: I understood what you were going.

542

Yeah.

543

But the same as, like, you could be

an area manager for, you know, five

544

stores, but they're all doing $2 million.

545

Right.

546

But that guy isn't necessarily

strong enough to maintain stores

547

that are doing $15 million.

548

Right.

549

So,

550

Jody: yeah.

551

Yeah.

552

And so once I got on the conventional

side, I went to the division

553

first, which falls under the MEF.

554

Mm.

555

So I did my tour there, and then

I went up to the MEF, and then

556

that's where I retired from.

557

Tyler: Ah, okay.

558

Jody: Yeah.

559

Well, that makes sense.

560

And being a senior enlisted advisor,

people are like, "Well," 'cause

561

I'll describe it as a C-suite.

562

Mm-hmm.

563

Like, "Oh, so you're

like a COO or something?"

564

I'm like, "No.

565

Imagine there's a blue-collar

representative in the C-suite."

566

Tyler: Yeah.

567

Jody: Yeah.

568

And then people are like,

"Oh, that makes sense."

569

That's what senior enlisted advisors are.

570

Like, we've come up

through the blue collar-

571

Tyler: Right

572

… Jody: you know, side of

things, but then you're, you're

573

sitting there with the boss.

574

That makes sense.

575

Tyler: That makes sense.

576

Yeah.

577

WW: Good.

578

Yeah.

579

And I think that leads perfectly into,

like, you've seen kind of what to do

580

and what not to do, and you're working

with those people who are helping write

581

the rules and, like, lead people, and

you're able to truly see what makes…

582

Like, what's a good human versus,

like, a bad human, and kind of that.

583

You can still get great leaders

out of both, but, like, how do

584

you get an even better leader?

585

Jody: Yes and no.

586

And I, my opinion, if you're not

a good human, you'll never be

587

a great leader, but it's by my

definition of being a good human.

588

WW: Cool.

589

Jody: And the thesis for this book is

just because you're a good human doesn't

590

make you a great leader automatically.

591

Mm.

592

It's like saying, "Oh,

you're a great nurse.

593

We're gonna promote you to surgeon."

594

It doesn't work like that.

595

WW: Right.

596

Jody: And I see it, and I…

597

It didn't really dawn on me.

598

In the military, there's just

kind of the normal promotion.

599

So you're promoted into leadership

based on your performance-

600

Tyler: Mm-hmm

601

… Jody: your PT scores, like

all, you know, a test if you're

602

in the Navy, all this stuff.

603

So it's not as I guess, subjective maybe

as it would be in the corporate side.

604

But I see people all the time, especially

in corporate, that are promoted

605

and don't even wanna be leaders-

606

Tyler: Right

607

… Jody: or were never provided

any opportunity to train.

608

It's a skill set.

609

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

610

Jody: And when I was writing the book

and, and trying to shop it around and

611

stuff, the, the hook for my book was, for

the, you know, the publishers and stuff,

612

was, "One of the best humans I know is

one of the worst leaders I've ever had."

613

Tyler: Ah, interesting.

614

Yeah.

615

Jody: And that's the point I'm trying

to make is that you've got to be a

616

good human- Yeah … to be a great

leader, but just because you're

617

a human, a good human doesn't m-

automatically make you a great leader.

618

And I've seen so many cases of that

where people are awesome- Right … and

619

it makes them fun to hang out with- Yeah

620

and, and you know they care about you.

621

But when it comes to actual leadership

skills, you know, because a lot of

622

people, the whole Peter principle, right?

623

You're promoted to your

level of incompetence.

624

Yep.

625

That level of incompetence is

normally the leadership level.

626

WW: Yeah.

627

Jody: So you're good at doing the things,

so we promote you, promote you, promote

628

you, and now we're like, "Great, you're

in charge of the, in charge of this team

629

of all the people that are doing the

things that you are good at, but you've

630

never been trained at leading people."

631

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

632

Jody: And that's where the failure

breaks or, or starts to happen.

633

WW: Yeah.

634

Tyler: Yeah.

635

I've seen that a lot, and then

especially the work that I do now when

636

we're analyzing other businesses, we

see that a lot, where it's typically

637

the salesperson that gets run up the

ladder as high as they can go, and

638

then they're like, "Oh, well, your

justification of pay is leadership now."

639

And so they throw them into that

position, and now they've kind of

640

shot themselves in the foot twice.

641

So now they have this person who's

a really great seller who's no

642

longer selling because they're

leading, but they suck at leading and

643

training, so now they're destroying

the rest of the people below them.

644

So you kind of have that,

like, double-edged sword

645

that's attacking you there.

646

Jody: And if nobody asked them

if they wanted to be a leader-

647

Tyler: True

648

… Jody: they might, a third aspect is

they might- Yeah … be truly unhappy-

649

Tyler: Mm

650

… Jody: because they didn't

want it in the first place.

651

Tyler: Right.

652

Jody: And I've seen several cases

of that, and the sales leaders

653

are great examples of that.

654

Yeah.

655

Yeah.

656

And that's exactly it.

657

Like, you, you can sell, sell, sell, sell.

658

Now you lead the sales team.

659

I don't want to do that.

660

WW: Right.

661

Jody: I just want to keep selling.

662

WW: Yeah.

663

Exactly.

664

So-

665

One, I worked with Tyler years ago,

and his mentality in working with

666

Brittany has all, has been like, all

right, so when you do something, you

667

wanna learn something, you wanna read

a book, you wanna watch video or like

668

find a way to learn more to get better.

669

And I feel like there's not as many

people who are doing that nowadays.

670

But you were explaining, and I

think part of it's 'cause books

671

are just, one, America is stupid.

672

In a lot of cases, but not all the time.

673

But like a lot of people are like,

"I just don't wanna read a book

674

because it's just like formulaic."

675

Yep.

676

And 'cause you were talking to me about

this beforehand, like kinda describe like

677

your book a little bit so people could be

like, "Oh, I really wanna pick this up."

678

Jody: I wrote this book with aspiring

leaders, young leaders, and people

679

who haven't been trained before.

680

Again, everybody will

get something out of it.

681

Mm-hmm.

682

So it's written in two parts.

683

The first half of the book, I think it's

the first 18 chapters, are all about being

684

a good human and how you define that.

685

It's all about self-awareness

dealing with the voice in your head.

686

How do you make it a co-pilot?

687

But the, the way I wrote the

chapters, Chris, is very short.

688

I don't think there's a chapter in

there that's more than 2,500 words.

689

So each chapter can be read

in 10 minutes, maybe 15.

690

Yeah.

691

It's written intentionally for all of

us that have short attention spans now.

692

Mm-hmm.

693

And it's also not written

to be read straight through.

694

So there's a call to action at the

beginning of each chapter kind of

695

saying, "Hey, here's what we're

gonna try to, try to get to."

696

Right?

697

Yeah.

698

And then at the end of each

chapter, there are questions.

699

And in fact, in the opening,

you know, kind of paragraphs,

700

I say, "Hey, I'm no expert."

701

Right?

702

I don't wear a cool corduroy

jacket with elbow patches.

703

Because a lot of books, in my opinion, are

either too scientific or they're a great

704

article that's been stretched into a book.

705

Tyler: Yep, yep.

706

Jody: Or they're just kind of

boring, and this is written in a way

707

that it's meant to feel like this.

708

We're sitting around, whether

it's with coffee or a wine or a

709

whiskey or something like that.

710

Some of the greatest leadership

lessons I've ever had came

711

from those types of settings.

712

Tyler: Right.

713

Jody: And that's what the book

is meant to feel like, so it's

714

written in a very conversational

tone because I'm not a serious guy

715

and not, you know, over-intelligent

or any of that kind of stuff.

716

Yeah.

717

And, and that's kind of how I wrote it,

so that you just feel like, "Oh, I just

718

had a great conversation with somebody.

719

Now let me reflect on this."

720

And then the second half of the

book is how do you stack the

721

fundamental leadership skills

on top of being a great human?

722

So in the first half, we talk about

account- accountability, say as

723

an example, for you as a human.

724

Now, how do you apply

accountability to leadership?

725

Mm.

726

So it's kind of a building block

approach, and you could even

727

kind of bounce back and forth.

728

I mean, it doesn't even follow…

729

You know, if you were to skip

chapters, it wouldn't necessarily

730

not make sense, I guess.

731

Tyler: Okay.

732

A few things I wanted to touch on

real quick now that I'm kind of

733

picking it up and going through it.

734

Not to give away the whole book,

but just to kind of give a taste.

735

There's three chapters I want to go

through, but of course, of course,

736

number one, defining good human.

737

What's your definition of a good human?

738

Jody: Don't kick puppies.

739

Give up your good seat on an airplane

so a family can sit together.

740

Don't steal candy from

babies, and don't be an ass.

741

So what I mean by that

is don't kick puppies.

742

Don't go out of your way to be

malicious or harmful to anyone else.

743

Give up your good seat is obvious, right?

744

If you're gonna go out of your way-

Mm-hmm … go out of your way to

745

do something kind for someone else.

746

Tyler: Right.

747

Jody: Don't be an ass.

748

Never make assumptions,

always ask the question.

749

Mm-hmm.

750

Define it before you discuss it.

751

Every rom-com ever written, and I

challenge you to find one, starts

752

with horrible communication.

753

It's usually 'cause people are

talking about the same word

754

with different definitions.

755

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

756

Jody: And it happens in so many, you

know, confrontations, arguments, whatever

757

you wanna call it, in all aspects

of our lives and our relationships.

758

We're talking about the exact same

word with a different definition.

759

Tyler: Yep,

760

Jody: yep.

761

And you don't even have to agree on the

other person's definition, you just have

762

to understand it to be able to discuss it.

763

So always ask, never assume.

764

The only thing you're allowed to

assume is positive intent, right?

765

I like that.

766

And I have to practice

that when I'm driving.

767

Like, okay- Right … they must

be driving to the hospital, right?

768

Yeah.

769

And then don't steal candy from kids, and

don't let other people steal your candy.

770

Mm-hmm.

771

So our emotions, our trust, all of

those things are precious to us.

772

Don't steal that from someone else, and

then don't let someone else steal yours.

773

And really what we're talking

about there are boundaries.

774

Understand what your boundaries are,

understand what the boundaries of other

775

humans are, and then respect both.

776

Tyler: I like that.

777

That's really good.

778

Very succinct too.

779

I like it.

780

Jody: I'm a simple creature.

781

I work in analogy and metaphor.

782

Tyler: Right.

783

I appreciate that.

784

It's the best way I can understand.

785

And the chapter 17 where it

says, "Why do you want to lead?"

786

That's a wonderful question, 'cause

there's a lot of people that I

787

meet, especially the people coming

out of college, and a lot of the

788

young professionals that this

podcast hits, that's probably a

789

wonderful question to ask them.

790

So what exactly is that chapter

about, and what are you looking

791

for in that type of answer?

792

Jody: Every answer is

going to be different.

793

Mm-hmm.

794

And really it's just, to your point,

and that's the thing with everything

795

in the book, a lot of the questions

that are asked in there, people have

796

never sat down and really thought,

like, what are your core values?

797

Yeah.

798

Why do you want to lead?

799

And it's meant to make you reflect

and say, "Why do I want to lead?"

800

WW: Yeah.

801

Jody: Because I don't know…

802

I'm not going to know how to get somewhere

if I don't know where I am first,

803

and that's that self-awareness piece.

804

What is it that drives me to want to lead?

805

And again, not everybody wants

to lead, and that's okay.

806

But understanding that I do want

to be a leader, so that means I'm

807

going kind of this path, right?

808

As I become more technically proficient,

I'm also starting to understand, you

809

know, leading people, and then at some

point realizing that I will probably no

810

longer be the technical expert anymore.

811

Mm-hmm.

812

Then my focus is I want to be

the best leader in the room.

813

So you should never be the

smartest person in the room- Right

814

as a leader, with the exception

of, of being a leader.

815

Everything else, you should have

your experts in that room in each…

816

And I always think of- Mm … and

I'm not a big comic book person, but

817

I think of, you know, there's always

that classic scene where all the

818

superheroes are sitting around a table.

819

Every one of those superheroes is

different, and they're different

820

for, for the exact right reason.

821

Right?

822

If you had a whole bunch of

Superman, it's pointless.

823

It's pointless, yeah.

824

WW: Instead- They're all

825

Jody: going

826

WW: to get knocked out by kryptonite.

827

Jody: That's right.

828

That's right, and that's exactly it.

829

So instead, what do you got?

830

You got Wonder Woman, you got

Superman, you got Aquaman, you got

831

everybody there because they're all

bringing something to the table.

832

That's what makes a great team.

833

The leader is, in my opinion,

the expert in that aspect of it.

834

Like, "Hey, how do we

get this thing going?"

835

And as I was getting ready to

retire from the military, I thought

836

to myself, "What would I say

I'm good at, if somebody asked?"

837

And I feel like one thing that I got good

at, the, the more I practiced leadership

838

and the further I got up the food

chain, was seeing in the people kind of

839

that, like, what are their superpowers?

840

And what could I, what time of,

what type of team could I create?

841

And bringing, like, oh, you know what?

842

Tyler and Chris, if I put them

together, they're going to

843

complement each other's strengths.

844

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

845

Jody: So that to me is the, the

difference in, in leadership.

846

But asking yourself

those types of questions.

847

And obviously there's a difference

between, you know, and I say it even

848

in the book the leader that I was at,

at 19 or 20, vastly different than,

849

you know, a dude in his 50s now.

850

Tyler: Yeah, sure.

851

And last chapter that I want to

hit on real quick, and I have a

852

feeling this comes from the, the

corpsman in you, first do no harm.

853

Jody: Actually, the guy who was

the command master chief of the

854

destroyer asked me to, to be the

keynote at the, like, their ball.

855

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

856

Oh,

857

Jody: yeah.

858

And I was…

859

You know, this is the

way I write keynotes.

860

I will just, like, wait, and it comes

to me whenever the muse shows up.

861

Yeah.

862

And I'm not kidding.

863

It was at 4:00 in the morning.

864

And I sat up in the bed, and it was

there, and I thought of this first do no

865

harm, and it was the Hippocratic oath.

866

Tyler: Yep.

867

Mm.

868

Jody: And, you know, in medicine,

especially for physicians, they

869

make them take the Hippocratic oath.

870

We have one for corpsman, all that kind

of stuff, and it's first do no harm.

871

Mm-hmm.

872

And I thought to myself, "Why do

we not instill that in leaders?"

873

Tyler: Yeah.

874

Jody: First do no harm, right?

875

And then at the end of the book, and

I share what I kind of call if you,

876

if you were to create a leadership

oath, what would it look like?

877

And I share mine at the end of the

book, and it's based on that keynote-

878

Right … that I, that I gave.

879

You know, I kind of cleaned it up a little

because there were some specific funny

880

jabs in there- Okay … about, about him,

but I cleaned it up, and that's what I'm

881

asking people to do is as you discover

and, and determine how do I want to show

882

up as a human first, and then how do I

want to show up as a leader, and then at

883

the end, what would my leadership oath be?

884

Mm-hmm.

885

What am I committing to as a leader

and as a human to serve other people?

886

Tyler: This is probably gonna be a

putting you on the spot with trying

887

to choose one attribute of both.

888

Let's say you're hiring someone

maybe at the job that you're at now,

889

and you're hiring another leader.

890

What's one human attribute that you

want them to have and one leadership

891

attribute that you think is important?

892

Jody: It's a great question.

893

I would say the ability to

build relationships- Mm.

894

WW: Okay

895

… Jody: would be what I'm

looking for in a leader.

896

Right.

897

Because leadership is just

another form of relationship.

898

WW: Yep.

899

Okay.

900

Jody: And it's when you understand

that, you kind of get it.

901

WW: Yeah.

902

Jody: On the leader side, the professional

side of it, what I would be looking for is

903

someone who's not afraid to make a call.

904

Because that's where the human side, and

when I think back to the people that I

905

refer to as great humans but not great

leaders- Mm-hmm … it was often because

906

they didn't wanna hurt anybody's feelings.

907

And I will say there's

a way to go about that.

908

I hate when people say, "It's

not personal, it's business."

909

Everything's personal.

910

Yeah.

911

There's emotion attached to

everything, but we still have to

912

make decisions based on whatever it

is that we're trying to accomplish.

913

A lot of leadership failures that I

see are when people are, let someone

914

get away with something or keep

someone on the team that everybody

915

knows shouldn't be on the team.

916

So, you're looking for someone

who can make those decisions,

917

having worked someone up to that.

918

So, you know, Tyler, if you're

not making your numbers-

919

Tyler: Mm-hmm

920

… Jody: and I pull you in to finally make

you available for other opportunities-

921

Mm … it should not be a surprise to you.

922

If it is, then I've failed.

923

WW: Yeah, 'cause you should be having

those conversations and connecting

924

with people on a more regular basis.

925

Jody: That's right, Chris.

926

100%.

927

And so, but you also have to have

that in your head early on, having

928

those challenging conversations.

929

Mm-hmm.

930

"Hey, Tyler, you missed your numbers."

931

You know, so that we're working on that,

and I'm providing you- Right … or

932

creating the environment for you to meet

the goals and what we need you to do, but

933

if it, if it comes time that you're not.

934

And one of the stories I share in

there, and one of the chapters I

935

learned when I was 19 years old.

936

Mm.

937

And to this day, it's one of the strongest

leadership lessons I ever learned.

938

Tyler: Mm.

939

Jody: Yeah.

940

We had to get, we had to let someone go.

941

Tyler: Yeah.

942

Yeah.

943

Jody: I had to go to the hospital before

I started all this other stuff, right?

944

Like, at the time, you had to go to

boot camp, core school, field med- Right

945

… and then you had to do hospital time.

946

So I was a senior corpsman on a ward,

and long story short, there was a guy

947

who, an amazing human, had no aptitude

for medicine, and it was to the point

948

where he was actually dangerous.

949

Tyler: Oh, yeah.

950

Jody: And my dad was still in the

military at the time, you know,

951

so of course it, I think I was 18.

952

I might not even been 19, but

anyway, called my dad, I'm like,

953

"Pops, I don't know what to do."

954

WW: Yeah.

955

Jody: And in the military

especially, we see people get pushed.

956

"Oh, we'll just, we'll,

we'll put him over there.

957

We'll put her over there."

958

WW: We'll fix it.

959

Jody: We'll fix it.

960

Yeah.

961

We'll put him there, yeah.

962

And then it becomes

someone else's problem.

963

Yeah.

964

And especially in this case,

you're talking about healthcare,

965

and that's people's lives, and-

966

WW: Right

967

… Jody: at the time, we worked

on the pediatric ward, so

968

it's children, all this stuff.

969

And I mean, the question my

dad said is, "What happens, you

970

know, if you pass him along?"

971

Well, he's gonna hurt someone somewhere.

972

Mm-hmm.

973

And my dad said, "You would own that."

974

And, you know, not only did we cut

him, but we also took his caduceus,

975

like his, his corpsman rating.

976

Tyler: Oh, wow.

977

Yeah.

978

Jody: Yeah.

979

That's crazy.

980

And that was one of the hardest

things I ever had to do, and I was

981

18, 19 years old, whatever I was.

982

But it taught me such a valuable lesson.

983

And we didn't just, like, get rid of him.

984

There was a plan, and he had

worked in the post office down

985

in the hospital before that.

986

Now, looking back, I think

he was neurodivergent.

987

Tyler: Mm.

988

Jody: He was amazing down there because

he was great with people, and he…

989

very detail-oriented

and that type of stuff.

990

So we were able to get him re-rated

to, back then we had a postal clerk,

991

was a- Yeah … was a rate in the Navy.

992

So there was a plan.

993

Right.

994

But going through the emotion of

telling someone, "Not only are you

995

not gonna work here, but we're also

taking, you know-" Yeah … him.

996

"You're

997

WW: not gonna be a corpsman at all."

998

Jody: That's right.

999

"You're gonna do something different."

00:35:46,408 --> 00:35:48,908

And of course, there was a, you

know, six-month build-up to that

00:35:48,908 --> 00:35:50,328

so that all that's in there.

00:35:50,328 --> 00:35:51,378

But yeah, it was…

00:35:51,418 --> 00:35:52,588

We'd done all the things.

00:35:52,618 --> 00:35:53,018

Tyler: Right.

00:35:53,208 --> 00:35:55,458

Jody: But that was, I

was 18, 19 years old.

00:35:55,988 --> 00:35:56,038

Sure.

00:35:56,038 --> 00:35:56,698

Hard thing to do.

00:35:56,738 --> 00:35:57,058

Tyler: Yeah.

00:35:57,518 --> 00:35:58,998

Had to learn real fast at that moment.

00:35:59,018 --> 00:35:59,978

Jody: Yeah, yeah.

00:36:00,158 --> 00:36:00,778

Tyler: That's crazy.

00:36:01,038 --> 00:36:03,948

It'd be interesting to know

what that guy's up to nowadays.

00:36:03,978 --> 00:36:05,848

Jody: When I was writing that

chapter, I, and I've shared

00:36:05,858 --> 00:36:07,098

that, I share that story a lot.

00:36:07,128 --> 00:36:08,398

I, I think about it.

00:36:08,618 --> 00:36:08,948

Tyler: Yeah.

00:36:08,958 --> 00:36:10,158

Jody: Whatever happened to him?

00:36:10,458 --> 00:36:10,478

Yeah.

00:36:10,868 --> 00:36:13,538

' Tyler: Cause it would be interesting,

like, did you do him a huge favor?

00:36:13,538 --> 00:36:15,038

I would think you did, right?

00:36:15,038 --> 00:36:17,548

Because, like, maybe he was in this

line of work, he was gonna hate it,

00:36:17,568 --> 00:36:21,138

he was gonna eventually end up in a

bad position later on, and maybe you

00:36:21,138 --> 00:36:23,858

moved him in the right track that,

like, he excelled somewhere else.

00:36:23,888 --> 00:36:26,118

It'd, it'd just be interesting,

like, 'cause that'd be the

00:36:26,118 --> 00:36:27,328

positive way of- That's right.

00:36:27,608 --> 00:36:27,688

That's

00:36:27,688 --> 00:36:27,888

Jody: right

00:36:27,888 --> 00:36:27,918

Tyler: taking it, right?

00:36:27,918 --> 00:36:29,488

There's also a negative

way of taking it as well.

00:36:29,728 --> 00:36:32,728

But it would be interesting to know,

like, I wonder what happened to that guy.

00:36:32,728 --> 00:36:33,058

Yeah.

00:36:33,058 --> 00:36:34,158

Jody: Yeah, I do wonder about it.

00:36:34,158 --> 00:36:37,568

And, you know, you see it in military

schools, people get pushed through.

00:36:37,738 --> 00:36:41,148

And my buddy was actually later,

much later, was an instructor

00:36:41,168 --> 00:36:42,288

at that core school- Mm-hmm

00:36:42,288 --> 00:36:47,628

our basic, and he said, literally the

words that came out of the, the, the

00:36:47,628 --> 00:36:51,838

head shed's mouth was, "We're a pipeline,

not a filter," when he was trying

00:36:51,838 --> 00:36:54,578

to say, "Hey, this person shouldn't

go on," and, and that kind of stuff.

00:36:54,578 --> 00:36:57,668

So there is that mentality- Right

… 'cause I'm sure people are like, "Well,

00:36:57,908 --> 00:36:59,198

how did he get through training?"

00:36:59,498 --> 00:37:01,488

You know, it, it happens.

00:37:01,808 --> 00:37:01,948

Yeah.

00:37:01,948 --> 00:37:03,428

I mean, it happens everywhere,

not just in the military.

00:37:03,428 --> 00:37:03,528

Exactly.

00:37:03,538 --> 00:37:03,558

Yeah.

00:37:03,578 --> 00:37:04,748

And that was a good case.

00:37:04,748 --> 00:37:07,748

And we're dealing with people's lives

there and people's children, especially

00:37:07,748 --> 00:37:08,958

at the hospital that we were working at.

00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:17,630

WW: So, one, I always find it s-

Tyler works with finding people and

00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,880

getting them on the podcast, and

it's, I will say at least twice a

00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,150

year, very serendipitous about, like,

what's going on with, like, things.

00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:31,060

Because typically in August, September

is when one of us starts 75 Hard.

00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,870

I think this is gonna be a good

book to kind of read through-

00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,340

True … during that timeframe.

00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:38,280

For all those who want

to do it, let us know.

00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:40,540

Tyler might be doing it again.

00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,280

Oh, I thought Chris

00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,370

Tyler: was gonna have an announcement.

00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:43,530

I was excited for

00:37:44,010 --> 00:37:44,760

WW: a second.

00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:45,020

Ah, sorry.

00:37:45,995 --> 00:37:46,855

it's just the running.

00:37:47,145 --> 00:37:50,345

'Cause he always does it, and people are

like, "Oh, I always work with people,"

00:37:50,345 --> 00:37:51,545

and they're like, "It's so hard."

00:37:51,545 --> 00:37:54,095

And I'm like, "I mean, everything's hard."

00:37:54,685 --> 00:37:55,055

But you-

00:37:55,885 --> 00:37:55,915

Tyler: It's

00:37:55,915 --> 00:37:56,025

WW: also in the name.

00:37:56,025 --> 00:37:57,915

I'm like, "But, but it's doable."

00:37:57,935 --> 00:37:58,195

Right.

00:37:58,195 --> 00:38:00,425

I'm like, I didn't think I'd get

through basic training because I

00:38:00,425 --> 00:38:03,155

was a fat body who had, hadn't run.

00:38:03,525 --> 00:38:05,515

I couldn't run a mile under 10 minutes.

00:38:06,065 --> 00:38:08,025

And I was like, but it, it happened.

00:38:08,075 --> 00:38:08,405

Tyler: Yeah.

00:38:08,655 --> 00:38:09,695

WW: Like, you just have to do it.

00:38:10,155 --> 00:38:13,535

But I think it's serendipitous 'cause

this is a good book that's come out

00:38:13,555 --> 00:38:16,685

at a good time, 'cause, like, a lot

of companies are doing their, like,

00:38:17,035 --> 00:38:19,225

leadership summits to end the year.

00:38:19,515 --> 00:38:22,355

And I think the people who are listening

to the podcast, like, this is a good book

00:38:22,355 --> 00:38:23,975

for you guys to read and then suggest.

00:38:24,555 --> 00:38:29,635

But question for you, 'cause

you get to do all the fun stuff

00:38:29,815 --> 00:38:30,975

outside of the military now.

00:38:31,485 --> 00:38:33,105

What does success look like for you?

00:38:34,225 --> 00:38:37,155

Jody: Right now, success for me

is defined as finishing the second

00:38:37,165 --> 00:38:38,555

half with a smile on my face.

00:38:38,765 --> 00:38:39,105

WW: Okay.

00:38:39,705 --> 00:38:41,355

Jody: You know, so I'll be 52 soon.

00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:41,875

WW: Mm-hmm.

00:38:41,930 --> 00:38:44,350

Jody: on that, you know,

downside of life, right?

00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:47,570

And I, I read it somewhere

and I was like, "That's it.

00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:49,010

That's my goal," right?

00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:52,360

Is to do things that- Fill my soul.

00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:52,700

WW: Mm-hmm.

00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:57,220

Jody: To spend as much time with

family as I can, doing the fun things.

00:38:57,530 --> 00:39:01,360

But really just to, and I know it

sounds cheesy and, and silly, but

00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:05,560

for 30 years, and, and Chris you were

in the military so you know, you're

00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,910

kind of, you know, I always joke and,

and say like, "You're in a cult."

00:39:09,830 --> 00:39:12,920

They tell you where to go, they tell you

what to do, they tell you how to dress.

00:39:13,020 --> 00:39:13,200

Yes.

00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,850

They tell you when to eat, you know.

00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,480

And, and not that there's no freedom in

the military, I mean there is of course,

00:39:18,770 --> 00:39:20,820

but it's nice to be on the outside.

00:39:20,820 --> 00:39:23,200

And I'm five years retired

now from the military.

00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:23,450

Nice.

00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:28,000

And even taking this full-time role that

I'm in now you know, the opportunity

00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,230

presented itself and, and I love the

company, and the thought of being around

00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:37,570

young people again really energizes me.

00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,490

I love it 'cause I love just

understanding what's coming up with the

00:39:41,490 --> 00:39:44,740

next generation, what they value, and

the creativity, and all that kind of

00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:46,190

stuff, and then being a part of a team.

00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:50,900

So I feel like it's, it's an easy, kind

of cheesy answer, but just doing things

00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:55,470

that make me happy, that fulfill me,

that, that, you know, fill my soul.

00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:55,890

Yeah.

00:39:56,090 --> 00:39:57,950

That's how I look at success.

00:39:57,980 --> 00:40:03,590

My daughter's heading off to grad

school in, in August, so couple more

00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:06,850

years and, and then, you know, she'll

be fully launched into adulthood-

00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,780

Cool … and all that good stuff.

00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:11,650

But for the most part my wife and I are

empty nesters and we're traveling and,

00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:14,920

and I still work 'cause I enjoy it.

00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:15,190

WW: Yeah.

00:40:15,385 --> 00:40:15,945

Jody: but yeah.

00:40:15,985 --> 00:40:16,275

I don't know.

00:40:16,285 --> 00:40:19,225

It's kind of a cop-out of an answer,

but it's, it's the real answer.

00:40:19,465 --> 00:40:19,525

WW: Yeah.

00:40:19,525 --> 00:40:24,935

So one thing I always, I think is

interesting is with the podcast, Tyler

00:40:24,955 --> 00:40:28,355

originally started may- with this

question that we always end with.

00:40:28,685 --> 00:40:31,295

Then I just randomly was like,

"Hmm, I'm gonna ask this question."

00:40:31,695 --> 00:40:34,505

But the reason I ask this

question is because I like to get

00:40:34,535 --> 00:40:35,815

other people's points of view.

00:40:36,135 --> 00:40:39,525

Because like you said, the only thing

you wanna assume is positive intent.

00:40:40,005 --> 00:40:44,685

And if I have more people's concepts

of like what success and like

00:40:45,005 --> 00:40:49,005

things about them in the world, it

allows me to be more open-minded to

00:40:49,005 --> 00:40:51,765

positiveness or positivity I guess.

00:40:51,765 --> 00:40:52,365

Positivity.

00:40:52,405 --> 00:40:53,065

Jody: Yeah, we know what you meant.

00:40:53,125 --> 00:40:53,525

WW: Yeah.

00:40:54,485 --> 00:40:57,825

So that's why I'm like even if

it's just like, you know, success

00:40:57,825 --> 00:41:02,355

is, you know, having every weekend

off or, you know, s- taking more

00:41:02,355 --> 00:41:04,745

vacations, I think that's a great…

00:41:04,835 --> 00:41:08,255

It gives me like, okay, you know, I

didn't think of that as a success meter.

00:41:08,655 --> 00:41:11,975

You know, should that

be on my list of things?

00:41:12,285 --> 00:41:16,905

Jody: Well, and especially as someone

who's married, I would say figure

00:41:16,905 --> 00:41:20,735

out how you define success, and

then ask your spouse how they define

00:41:20,735 --> 00:41:22,955

success, and then compare the answers.

00:41:22,965 --> 00:41:22,975

Mm.

00:41:23,185 --> 00:41:25,595

And have that discussion,

and that's a great example.

00:41:25,825 --> 00:41:29,105

The way you define success, it's the

same word, but it might be different.

00:41:29,985 --> 00:41:30,195

WW: Yeah.

00:41:30,755 --> 00:41:33,095

Jody: And then you can have that

conversation and co-create a

00:41:33,095 --> 00:41:34,835

definition of success as a family.

00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:39,465

Because, yeah, for a while I was

working really hard when I first got

00:41:39,465 --> 00:41:42,715

out, and my wife kind of pulled my

choke chain a little bit and said,

00:41:42,715 --> 00:41:44,745

"Hey, you're not happy right now."

00:41:45,705 --> 00:41:45,955

You know?

00:41:45,955 --> 00:41:47,905

And, and as the person who…

00:41:48,205 --> 00:41:51,715

We've been together 31 years,

and she knows me and knows

00:41:51,745 --> 00:41:54,065

exactly kind of, you know.

00:41:54,235 --> 00:41:54,255

Mm-hmm.

00:41:54,255 --> 00:41:59,505

She, she just right at the right

moment- Mm … and kind of opened my

00:41:59,505 --> 00:42:01,095

eyes, and I was like, "Yeah, I'm not."

00:42:01,905 --> 00:42:03,715

You know, not in what I want to be doing.

00:42:06,717 --> 00:42:08,767

Tyler: Just to kind of play off of

that too my wife and I have been

00:42:08,767 --> 00:42:11,477

married for- we celebrated our

10-year anniversary a week ago.

00:42:11,477 --> 00:42:12,127

Jody: Congrats.

00:42:12,137 --> 00:42:12,407

Tyler: Yeah.

00:42:12,407 --> 00:42:12,797

Thank you.

00:42:13,167 --> 00:42:16,587

And our definitions of success

have changed over the years-

00:42:16,587 --> 00:42:18,747

That's right … and having kids

and everything else, and being in

00:42:18,747 --> 00:42:20,437

different careers and whatnot too.

00:42:20,467 --> 00:42:21,317

So that was…

00:42:21,387 --> 00:42:23,987

It's-- I'm glad you brought that up

because that was a conversation we had

00:42:23,987 --> 00:42:25,677

to have probably close to a year ago.

00:42:26,107 --> 00:42:29,287

It's like, okay, now we have

two kids, like what exactly is

00:42:29,287 --> 00:42:31,237

our definition of success now?

00:42:31,567 --> 00:42:34,337

And it can't be as short-term

as what they used to be.

00:42:34,337 --> 00:42:34,667

Mm-hmm.

00:42:34,697 --> 00:42:36,617

So at one point it was

like, "We want a dog."

00:42:36,627 --> 00:42:38,377

Like, that was our

definition of success, right?

00:42:38,427 --> 00:42:38,457

Yep.

00:42:38,457 --> 00:42:38,527

Yep.

00:42:38,527 --> 00:42:39,317

It was like, "We want a house."

00:42:39,317 --> 00:42:40,527

That's our definition of success.

00:42:40,527 --> 00:42:45,237

And now it's like, okay, what do these,

like, real-life, long-term success

00:42:45,237 --> 00:42:48,397

goals look like, and how does that

build with our family and whatnot?

00:42:48,827 --> 00:42:49,867

Jody: And that's a great point, Tyler.

00:42:49,867 --> 00:42:53,547

Like, it, it does probably need to be

short gates, because when our daughter

00:42:53,547 --> 00:42:55,197

was born, it was healthy, happy child.

00:42:55,207 --> 00:42:55,237

Mm-hmm.

00:42:55,557 --> 00:43:00,697

And then, you know, it was that she's

happy and, and feels fulfilled and is

00:43:00,727 --> 00:43:05,617

learning and, and then as we just kind

of keep going, and now for her, I hope

00:43:05,657 --> 00:43:08,647

that she launches well- Mm-hmm … and

gets the career that she's after

00:43:08,647 --> 00:43:12,457

and all those things, and healthy,

happy relationships and, you know.

00:43:13,147 --> 00:43:17,527

But then I don't have as much influence

as I did when she was in the house.

00:43:17,617 --> 00:43:17,847

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

00:43:18,407 --> 00:43:21,757

Jody: So that changes my definition

of success because at that point, all

00:43:21,757 --> 00:43:26,357

you can do is hope that you've raised

your children in a way that they're

00:43:26,357 --> 00:43:30,677

off making decisions that they own-

Right … and are good for them.

00:43:31,597 --> 00:43:31,617

Yeah.

00:43:31,617 --> 00:43:35,727

And realizing that that's not always

the way I would've done something.

00:43:35,767 --> 00:43:35,897

Yeah.

00:43:35,937 --> 00:43:36,707

And that's okay.

00:43:37,337 --> 00:43:39,837

And that, I talk about that a

lot in the book too, controlling

00:43:39,837 --> 00:43:43,057

what you truly, or realizing

what you truly have control over.

00:43:43,087 --> 00:43:43,497

Mm-hmm.

00:43:43,507 --> 00:43:47,207

Because, you know, if you've

got young ones, you don't even

00:43:47,207 --> 00:43:48,447

have control over them really.

00:43:48,517 --> 00:43:50,637

I mean, you can like lock them

in a room, but they can still

00:43:50,637 --> 00:43:52,157

climb out a window or whatever.

00:43:52,177 --> 00:43:52,377

Yeah.

00:43:52,637 --> 00:43:56,407

And so that's a big thing where I see

people getting tripped up all the time,

00:43:56,417 --> 00:43:59,087

is trying to control other people.

00:43:59,247 --> 00:43:59,657

Tyler: Mm-hmm.

00:43:59,667 --> 00:44:00,677

Jody: And the reality is you can't.