Tessa (: 00:07

Hello everyone. I am so happy today to have someone who is like an amazing conflict remedy specialist. I mean, how awesome is that? And she does a lot of work in helping people in the workplace. I think you're gonna get a lot from this. And even if you're not a career person you may get some really fabulous nuggets here today for other relationships. Her name is Lorraine Siegel, and she has she spent 20 years in toxic academia, she says. And then, you know, that basically led her to start her own business called Conflict Remedy. And she is trained in diversity, equity, inclusion, informed teaching, which I'd love. And then the initials for that are like D E I or D E I B. And she can tell you more about that if she wants to. She is a coach and consultant and she helps leaders transform conflict at work.

(: 01:16

Her recently published memoir, Angels and Earth Worms, how cool is that? It is an unexpected journey to joy, love, and miracles. And it's about her transformation from miserable self-doubt to self-acceptance, true love, spiritual awareness, and right livelihood. And I love that so much. Like I know, my audience, my ladies, they will love hearing from you, Lorraine, because they're driven by values, right? Like, so everything they're doing has to be in alignment with their soul, with their values, what they really care about. And I love that you're naming that, that right livelihood. So I'd love to hear from you now, if you could get us started just telling the audience a little bit more about the work that you do, including the transformation that you helped them achieve.

Lorraine (: 02:15

Okay. I'm so happy to be here with you today, Tessa. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. And you know, it is my right livelihood, so I'm very passionate about this work and very happy to share it with your audience. So as I said, I was a tenured professor in toxic academia and through a lot of very difficult experiences, was blessed to find my way to what was called the conflict resolution field, and started studying and creating my own practice. And realized that I didn't just want to do mediation, which is the most well-known conflict resolution tool, but coaching to catch people before they're so mad at each other and help them do the inner work. And also training to give people the skills to reimagine conflict, to navigate it in a different way that isn't just stressful and awful.

Tessa (: 03:17

Oh my goodness. Well, wait, hang on a second. Like, I love that what you just said about re-imagining conflict resolution because they're so, it's so normal to get, like, when we just think of the word conflict, right?

(: 03:32

Like people get tense and they seize up and then they're in their patterns and they're defensive or they're on the attack. And so tell me a little bit more about that. The re-imagining of it.

Lorraine (: 03:45

Yes. Well, this is why when I heard the word conflict transformation, I jumped on it and started using it when I described what I do, because it is what I was doing, it isn't just about finding some cut and paste solution to a conflict or finding magic words to say to someone to make the conflict go away. It's about a much deeper process of understanding who you are, understanding who the other person is with compassion and making room for curiosity. And so there's a lot of work I do that well, you know, no one ever invents anything, but I didn't know people who were doing the kind of work I did around conflict. So, for example I talk a lot about mistakes that we all make mistakes. And so many of us grow up thinking that if we make mistakes, we are a mistake. And so we're really defensive, which increases conflict. So if we can accept that we're all human together and we're all making mistakes, it creates a lot more space to forgive others and to have better conversations about what's going on. So that's a piece of it for me.

Tessa (: 05:07

And Oh, for sure that, I mean, that makes a lot of sense because without that pressure of perfectionism and without the pressure of having to look a certain way, then people can really show up more as who they are, right? It might be scary cuz they're feeling vulnerable but it creates much greater opportunity for those things You're talking about compassion and understanding.

Lorraine (: 05:37

Yes. And probably one of the first things I say to people, and this again is a, well, it's about perfection, is that conflict is normal. You know, we tend to think, oh my God, what did I do wrong? Why are we in conflict? They're terrible, or I'm terrible and I, the first thing I like to do is normalize conflict. That it is an absolutely acceptable, normal, usual part of human behavior. It's not whether there's conflict, it's what you do with the conflict that determines what they are.

Tessa (: 06:10

Yes. So conflict is normal.

Lorraine (: 06:13

Mm-hmm. .

Tessa (: 06:14

And, you know, in your studies around this, what's something that's healthy around conflict?

Lorraine (: 06:22

Well, I like to talk about something I learned about two different kinds of conflict. There's what we think of as interpersonal conflict, which is, you know, people pointing fingers at each other or yelling at each other or walking away from each other. They're impossible. But there's actually another kind of conflict, which is called creative conflict. So you imagine people who have the same goal for their company, for their project, for their mission, but they have very different ideas about how to get there. And when you have a diverse team, when you have people with different ideas from different cultures, different experiences, et cetera, and they come together and, you know, fight it out kind of, but listen to each other, you can end up with a much more amazing and creative product or process than if everybody's in lockstep and absolutely agreeing with each other.

Tessa (: 07:20

Oh my goodness, yes. And so really it's like bringing the diversity of all the different viewpoints, the creativity, the problem solving, all those things. And you have a much stronger impact, you know, for the company, for whatever they're providing for their mission. So it's an inclusive approach. You're calling it creative conflict. That's interesting. So, all right, tell me more .

Lorraine (: 07:55

I tend to work with people in companies in three different ways. Sometimes I do one-on-one and dialogue coaching. Sometimes I do training programs. Sometimes I consult to take a look at their whole, you know, picture of what's happening. And the thing about the coaching that I love is nobody has a lock on the truth. We tell ourselves these stories about ourselves, about the situation, about the other people, and the stories often have deep emotional resonance. So the first thing I do is listen with great compassion and intent to people stories. And then ever so gently I start directing them, you know, to really validate how difficult it is and how awful it feels and how mad or hurt that they are, because that's real. It isn't the truth, but it's very real and important.

Tessa (: 08:59

Absolutely. Those feelings are the need for acknowledgement. That's a basic human need. Super important.

Lorraine (: 09:08

Once they feel like I'm an ally, which I always am, I ever so gently start opening it up a little, how might the other person be seeing it? What might their perspective be? What story might they tell about it? And I'll give them examples if they can't come up with them, because sometimes people get very stuck in their story. And often when they do that, you know, there are people who are malicious in the world. I would never deny that. But most people aren't actively trying to harm us. They're doodling along their own story and not realizing the impact that they're having on us. So a lot of the work I do is helping people understand that they're on these parallel paths with different stories. You know, you may think you're the hero or the victim of the story. I guarantee the other person has a different perspective.

Tessa (: 10:02

Exactly. Yes.

Lorraine (: 10:04

I recently wrote a blog post about this. It's based on some teaching that I do. It's called The Rashomon Effect.

Tessa (: 10:13

Say it one more time for me.

Lorraine (: 10:15

, it was it came to the US in: 1951

Tessa (: 11:00

So, oh, how cool is that? Yeah. So you really get into the minds of all of them and see what their experience is.

Lorraine (: 11:09

So you watched the first third of the movie and you think you have a pretty good understanding of what happened and who did what. And then you watch the second part from a different character's perspective, and your mind is totally blown because you learned so much you didn't understand before, et cetera. And then, and so this is the whole heart of story that when you look at this, you can see that, oh, wow, I didn't realize when I said that, that it had that impact on them, or when they said that, wow, it really triggered me. But that was actually because what my mother said to me 30 years ago, it wasn't really them. And there's a million light bulbs that go off in people. And I have done this work with two people in conflict, and I haven't even ended up always having to meet with the two of them together because it changed their thinking and opened their hearts and minds and curiosity so much that they were able to come together, the two of them without me, you know, other times I'm there to help to keep reminding them of how.

Tessa (: 12:20

That is absolutely fascinating. Yeah. It makes all the sense in the world to me. So essentially, you are helping each person do their inner work and shift perspectives, right? Because they're coming from that place of either like, you know, the two examples that you gave hero or victim, right? And their their beliefs are all glommed on to that experience, and this is the way it is and this is what it means, and this is the what I can't have or what I will, you know, always have whatever it is. And so by doing that work with them, by hearing their stories, by really listening through the validation and through other, I'm sure ninja moves that you have , they're starting to have a very different perspective on what could have been going on or what's possible around what's going on. I love that. That's really, really important in order for people to be compassionate.

Lorraine (: 13:31

Yeah. And when I do trainings, I'm actually teaching people how to do this for themselves. You know, how to ask those questions, how to be curious, how to listen, what to follow different stories to and also of course, practical skills for how to have a difficult conversation. You know, what to say.

Tessa (: 13:57

Skills are important. We can't ignore them for sure, but often people, in my experience, they wanna put the skill first before the perspective change.

Lorraine (: 14:09

Yes. And it doesn't work. I actually had this contract I worked really hard for, for a county government, you know, I put 40 hours into it, and I, God, it was supposed to be doing all these multiple workshops and everything, and basically we fired each other after one workshop because they wanted this cut and dry, do this and do this, and do this and do this. They didn't want that introspective training, even though it's the only thing that works. And the students loved it, the student employees, but the admin didn't. So it wasn't a good fit. But, I also wanted to say that there's other pieces that I look at and fold into this work...

Tessa (: 14:53

mm-hmm.

Lorraine (: 14:53

...in my, and with clients, one of them is forgiveness work, letting go of grudges. It wasn't in any of my conflict training, although I've seen it since included in some things. But I quickly realized that if you're holding a grudge against someone, you can't resolve a conflict. You don't want to , and you're too mad at them. So I actually do forgiveness work with my clients, giving them affirmations and prayers and guided visualizations to help open their hearts and forgive themselves and forgive other people. So that's become an important piece of what I do.

Tessa (: 15:36

Oh yeah. So I'd love to explore this just a little bit more the forgiveness. So you're talking about people, some of them are feeling like victims, right? Or they're getting bullied or whatever they think it is. And often, like when I bring up forgiveness to someone like that, they're literally afraid to forgive because they feel like, right. Like they're gonna be more abused or more attacked, or more put down or non recognized. And so there's something that needs to shift before they can forgive. Do you wanna speak to a little bit more about that?

Lorraine (: 16:20

I actually have, you know, when I taught a for a while I was teaching a program I created a 12 week professional development program at Sonoma State University on Conflict Management. And I got to create it however I wanted, which was really fun. And I made one of the weeks, this is three hours on forgiveness. And the first thing I do in that is I do what I call Myth Busting. You know, like we have all these ideas of what forgiveness is and what it means and what the rules are. And most of it isn't true. Like, for example, you can't forgive someone unless they've apologized. If you forgive people, then you have to do what they want or you're saying that what they did was okay. And so I do a whole bunch of looking at all the false beliefs about forgiveness and talk about how you are the one with a bitter heart. You're the one who's doing the forgiveness for yourse lf. It's really not about the other person at all.

Tessa (: 17:21

Exactly, yes.

Lorraine (: 17:23

This is something I wrote about in my memoir, The Angels and Earthworms, because I was bullied and mobbed at the community college I was a tenured professor at, and it was horrific. I ended up with PTSD. I've done a of counselling since then. But one of the things I realized I had to do was forgiveness work, because I was so angry at them that I knew from other forgiveness work I'd done with people in other parts of my life, if I didn't find a way to let go of my resentment and rage to them, that my heart could shatter into a million bitter pieces and I might never recover. And so I prayed, I did forgiveness prayers for about 20 people, for six years every day.

Tessa (: 18:16

Oh my goodness, Lorraine. Yeah. You really did the work, you really...

Lorraine (: 18:21

I did. And it wasn't easy, but it did keep me from, you know, completely falling apart. It was one of the things with a lot of other support. and I did find some compassion for them. It didn't mean what they did was all right, and I did have to escape from there, but they were terrified of me. and that was why they were so horrible, because I represented change.

Tessa (: 18:51

Seriously, they were terrified of you. I'm like, oh my God, you're like one of the sweetest people I know. .

Lorraine (: 19:00

So they didn't want to hear. I was super competent. So this experience as well as leading me to my new career path, which I'm so grateful for I also do some teaching around bullying and the difference between bullying and conflict and tools that people can use if they're being bullied, and how to become self-aware if you are exhibiting bullying behaviors. I work with both kinds of people because sometimes managers and CEOs get very confused between what's conflict and what's bullying.

Tessa (: 19:42

That's a really great point. And I'm curious, cuz I know you have a blog do you write, you blog about the, some of these things? Like people could get a little information from you?

Lorraine (: 19:53

All of them. I have a bunch of blogs about bullying and mobbing. I have ones about mistakes and stories and a recent one is conflict as a hero's journey, which was a fun one to write stories.

Tessa (: 20:08

mm-hmm.

Lorraine (: 20:11

And talking about why people get bullied at work and what you can do about it. That's one of the topics because I experienced it and it was awful and it's really, really common, unfortunately.

Tessa (: 20:25

Yes, it is. And we know also that women are often the brunt of a lot of that. It's, we're still in a, some, a pretty strong masculine paradigm right now. But I think it's really essential what you're talking about is knowing the difference. Often what I notice, what I'm working with women is they could feel like they're coming under attack, and or being bullied, but sometimes that's true and they really do need that support. But other times it's not, it's just the perception because there's so much masculine energy, or let's say if they're dealing with somebody who is very compartmentalized and has a masculine style, whether it's a woman or a man, that they can perceive that they're being bullied when really they're just being, you know, the person might be just super direct, let's say. So it has more to do with style. So I love that you're really helping people understand that distinction. Is there any tip around that? I know we didn't talk about this earlier, but I, is there anything that you could give to my listeners about, you know, like what's one thing you could do to start to discern or to help yourself in that situation?

Lorraine (: 01:10

Well, I can give about five tips, really, but let me just start by saying that one way to tell the difference between interpersonal conflict and bullying. Bullying is an assault. It's always by one person at another person, or one group of people at someone who's become a target or scapegoat. Inner personal conflict is pretty equal. They're sniping at each other. They're, you know, doing things to each other. And it is possible for both people to be bullies in this situation.

Tessa (: 01:45

Oh, yes,

Lorraine (: 01:47

Seeing their style isn't good enough to give them a pass and you're right about perception, because I wrote a blog post recently about the highly sensitive person at work. I am a highly sensitive person. It means we're, you know, we're always picking up everything, seeing everything, feeling things deeply, seeing more than most people can. And when one person in a conflict is a highly sensitive person and the other one is not, they can run into all kinds of trouble if they don't understand that that's what's going on. Because to the highly sensitive person, that very direct person feels like an attack. And the person is very direct, feels like they just say one little thing and this person is like making a big deal out of it. And it has to do with that thing about what's the story they're telling?

(: 02:43

Who are they, you know, that compassion. So, you know, taking a deep breath and trying to sort out what's my story and what's actually going on, is a very helpful thing to do. And the first blog post that I wrote about bullying and mobbing, it's called the Injury of Mobbing in the Workplace. And it pretty much runs down a list, and there's a couple other ones into it too, of what kinds of behaviors might be considered bullying, you know, demeaning people, yelling at them, throwing things at them, leaving them off email lists, making up stories about them. And there's quite a bit. And when those things are happening, they're red flags that it isn't just an interpersonal conflict, it is bullying. And I've also written about inner tools and outer tools. You know, it's bullying's insidious, it's everywhere. There's things you can do to strengthen yourself so you're not so impacted on it. And then there's ways to take action and sometimes it's leaving. Other times there's things you, I mean, I've worked with a lot of people who've been bullied, and some of 'em bullies are cowards also, and bullies are people, and they may not realize what they're doing. So it is possible to work it out many times and other times it isn't.

Tessa (: 04:16

I love what you just said. I'm just like, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, this is like, totally was my experience. Like almost everything you just mentioned was something I've experienced in workplaces and, you know, there's like the person who's passively aggressively bullying, and then there's the creating stories amongst the rest of the office. There's all this stuff. It's really an awful experience to go through when you're the recipient of that. But ultimately, I was doing a lot of inner work. I didn't have the skills per se, of conflict resolution, but I had a good support team and I was able to figure out what was mine, what was theirs, and then how to take care of myself. And there were those times where I had to literally leave or close my door in somebody's face or say, this can't happen, you need to stop.

(: 05:14

It's a big learning curve. And so I love that you are focused on this and helping to clear up a lot of the misunderstanding so that people can feel like they belong, they can feel safe in the workspace. I mean, ah, you know, that's, so especially for people, career people. And they're there, you know, eight to 10 hours a day, hopefully not more than that. And they're with these people and there's some kind of a shared mission. There's shared values. So hopefully, you know, people can meet on those levels and grow up basically. This is an issue of growing up, I think. Right? When people just take fixed positions and they can't find a way to make it work or to understand somebody, there's some part of them that needs healing.

Lorraine (: 06:10

mm-hmm.

Tessa (: 06:10

Whether they're the bully or the victim. And, okay. So I'll stop being on my soapbox for a moment. I just, I really appreciate you. I really appreciate what you do, what you bring, how you help people. And I mean, I know you really care about it. You went through the experience, it sounds frightening at the least.

Lorraine (: 06:34

And I made so many mistakes with conflict because of my stories that I was telling. You know, that's part of the other story even there. And there's so much, you know, the work I've done with people, with my clients, it's always different. Just to give you a couple quick examples, I was working with a woman who was a designer at this firm, a small firm, and she was very angry at her boss. And one of the issues was that he was a yeller. So he'd yell at her and she thought the thing to do to be professional was just to be silent and take it. And I told her, no, the professional thing to do is to set boundaries. Tell him to stop and empower yourself. And we practiced and it made a huge difference in their age. Set those boundaries.

Tessa (: 07:28

How cool is that? So you did some role play. You helped that person practice setting boundaries?

Lorraine (: 07:35

Actually the same owner called me in to an issue he was having with another person where they were, they were such amazing men. I mean, they were willing to look at their part, willing to look at their feelings in a way that many men don't do. I was in awe of them. But, so I sat there with them in a kind of mediation and at one moment one of them was like, trying to push down. I'm trying to understand, I'm trying to understand. And the other one was getting more withdrawn, I could tell. And I said, let's stop and take a breath. And then the man who was feeling pushed on said, this is the pattern that I'm talking about. And the other man said, oh, and it was like transformative. And it was the most powerful thing I said to them in the whole meeting was, let's take a breath, because it came

Tessa (: 08:30

Lorraine (: 08:32

To see what was going on, and it was a turning point for them.

Tessa (: 08:36

Yes. Oh, that sounds really great. So you really have the skills and of clearly the education around how to be with people in these charged situations and make that space safe for both of them to come find that resolution and to have those awarenesses and not feel shamed or, you know, put down.

Lorraine (: 09:06

Absolutely. And actually, you know, my goal when I do, because I do this individual coaching and I do training, is for the situation not to be so charged when they come together because they've done so much footwork and inner work ahead of time. And, it's just amazing to witness the kinds of miracle breakthroughs that people can have. I love that so much.

Tessa (: 09:34

Mm. Well, thank you so much for the work that you do in the world and for bringing your light into these cloudy spaces. Okay, we're gonna wrap up soon, but I wanna know what, if any final piece of advice or a golden nugget would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Lorraine (: 09:56

Yes. Well, I think what I wanna say is when you're in a difficult situation, the first thing to do is give yourself some love and take a breath and remember that you are worthy just as you are. And so it's the other person. And then see if there's space to be curious and safe and navigate the situation differently.

Tessa (: 10:29

Oh, there you go. Differently, . Not the same way. I love it. So taking that breath and really creating some space and you said something that's really important, which is being curious, right?

Lorraine (: 10:42

Mm-hmm. ,

Tessa (: 10:43

Yeah, what could really be happening here or what's going on for that other person? Just taking that moment and seeing if something shifts in perspective and possibility.

Lorraine (: 10:54

Yes.

Tessa (: 10:56

Right? So being empowered.

Lorraine (: 10:59

Absolutely. And I do encourage people to, you know, I've got over 160 blog posts on these topics on my website, conflictremedy.com, and people can sign up for my newsletter, it's on the first page, if you scroll down, you can get an article called The High Cost of Conflict, and also then get my monthly blog posts without any effort.

Tessa (: 11:26

And that article also can help people like bridge a gap. Let's say they're in a workspace situation where they're not in charge, but they want somebody who's in charge to understand what's going on. There's something that you have that they can use for that, right?

Lorraine (: 11:45

Yes. A lot of companies that people in charge do care about their employees and about the climate of the workplace and the culture, et cetera, but for those who don't, I think it's really important, and that's what the article does, is to point out that conflict costs money. You know, because people quit and you have to retrain new people and hire, there could be lawsuits or grievances. You lose productivity because people are upset or they get sick. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things that happen when there's intractable particularly conflict. And so pointing that out to people in the C-suite can make them see what's in it for them to offer training, offer leadership training in coaching, and for teams. It's really immensely valuable.

Tessa (: 12:42

Fantastic. So once again, that was conflictremedy.com. That's where you can get a hold of Lorraine. And if you're driving or you're running and jogging or just out in nature and you're like, I don't wanna write that down, that's okay, cuz it'll be in the show notes. And definitely reach out if you know anybody who's going through some challenging conflict or anything in the workspace where they need support because their voice is not being heard or they're not feeling like they belong, Lorraine can help you out. Check it out. Conflictremedy.com. All right, listeners thank you for being here, Lorraine, thank you so much. You are just a fabulous example of someone who went through, you know, their challenges and you turned it into a gift that you are clearly just open-heartedly sharing. And I'm just really grateful that you're here today and I'm happy to know you, so thank you.

Lorraine (: 13:49

Oh, thank you. It's quite mutual. Tessa, thank you for your beautiful questions and this opportunity. I'm really glad I got to be here.

Tessa (: 13:58

Yay. All right everybody, thanks for listening. If you wanna share this podcast, please do. This is Tess Alburn. Lots of love and lots of light. Bye-bye.