Ever thought about the lonely life of a pastor? Well, today we’re diving headfirst into the isolation that often comes with leadership. We’ve got Rev. Jeff Meyer, a seasoned executive coach and pastor, sharing some serious wisdom on this not-so-glamorous side of leading. You’ll hear about why many leaders struggle to ask for help and how forming trusted relationships can be a total game changer.

We’ll explore insights from Jeff's book, "Your Internal Board of Directors," which helps leaders navigate their personal challenges while staying grounded in their core values. If you’re a leader or know one, this chat might just be the lifeline you didn’t know you needed! Leadership often shines bright in the public eye, but behind the glamor lies a less glamorous truth: many leaders, especially pastors and executives, grapple with isolation. In this conversation with Rev. Jeff Meyer, we dive deep into the hidden struggles leaders face and the importance of trusted relationships.

Rev. Meyer, a seasoned pastor and executive coach, sheds light on why leadership can feel lonely. He highlights the pressure to always have the answers, a burden that can lead to ‘accidental isolation,’ where leaders inadvertently distance themselves from those who could offer support.

The discussion emphasizes that it’s not just about seeking help—it's about creating a culture where vulnerability is welcomed. Through personal anecdotes and insightful reflections, Rev. Meyer shares practical strategies for cultivating a supportive network, encouraging leaders to embrace their humanity and seek out safe spaces where they can express their struggles without fear of judgment. His insights are particularly valuable for anyone in a leadership position, reminding us that even the shepherds need to be shepherded.

Takeaways:

• Leadership can feel glamorous, but many leaders carry heavy burdens alone, often unseen.
• The concept of 'accidental isolation' explains why leaders struggle to seek help when they need it.
• Trusted relationships are crucial for leaders to thrive; they transform isolation into community support.
• Recognizing the voices in our heads can help leaders understand their internal narratives better.
• To combat loneliness, leaders should actively seek spaces where they can be vulnerable and authentic.
• Clarity in personal values is essential for leaders to navigate competing expectations without losing themselves.

Links referenced in this episode:

• jeffmeyercoaching.com

Have you ever wondered who pastors talk to when they're struggling?

Who coaches the coach who shepherds the shepherd?

Leadership often looks impressive from the outside.

People see confidence, success, influence and vision.

But behind the scenes, many leaders are carrying crushing burdens in isolation.

Today, we're diving into one of the least talked about challenges facing executives, business owners, ministry leaders and pastors alike.

My guest, Dr. Jeff Meyer, has spent more time in three decades pastoring churches and coaching leaders.

He helps executives and ministry leaders gain clarity, build healthy leadership structures, create trusted relationships where they can be honest without fear of judgment or exposure.

We'll discuss why leadership can become isolating, why many leaders struggle to ask for help, how trusted advisors can change everything, and insights from Reverend Jeff Meyer's powerful book, the Internal Board Directors.

If you're a leader, love a leader, or serve leaders, this conversation could be one of the most important ones you'll hear all year.

So let's get started.

Jeff Meyer is an executive coach, Oxano Navigator, Senior pastor of Christ Memorial in Madison, Wisconsin, trusted advisor to senior pastors and faith based executive leaders.

With more than 30 years of experience leading churches and coaching organizations, Jeff helps leaders discover vision, clarity, organizational alignment, and healthy leadership rhythms.

Drawing from both ministry and executive coaching frameworks, Jeff specializes in helping leaders navigate challenges that often remain hidden from public view.

He's also author of your Internal Board Directors, a powerful resource helping leaders identify the voices influencing their decisions and leadership effectiveness.

Jeff, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you brother.

It's good to be here.

Appreciate the opportunity to chat with you.

Well, Jeff and I, for those who don't know, we were classmates at seminary.

I won't hold that against Jeff as we talk.

We were very competitive on and if you want those stories that will cost you more, we won't get into that on the podcast.

But Jeff, I'm going to ask you my favorite question as we kind of warm up.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

I think there's two pieces.

I think they're related.

One is stay curious and the other one that's right close behind it is lead from behind.

And who shared those with you?

My coach.

Her name is Lynn Shaner and Fortune 500 business coach that I met years ago asked her if she would ever coach a pastor and she said no.

And I was relentless in continuing to ask her until she said yes.

And so she's been my coach for years and now a dear friend and has taught me a lot about staying curious and leading from behind.

Why have those two quotes stayed with you all those years.

Because I think they're the most effective way to help people get where they want to go.

I think helping people understand they have their own best answers instead of just giving them answers or telling them what they should do, which I think we're guilty of a lot in terms of being pastors, we're looked to to be the answer guy.

And I think the best change, the best transformational change happens when people own their own journey.

And the best way to do that is to stay curious and lead from behind.

So it's changed the way I show up in the world.

I love that.

So let's talk about the thing that most pastors and leaders may not know, the loneliness of leadership.

One of the themes I've repeatedly seen among executive leaders and pastors is loneliness.

The higher someone rises in leadership, the fewer safe conversations they often get to have.

So why do you think leadership can become so isolating?

Well, because we're told that we have to have the answers.

We're told that and our society props up, that we're supposed to be strong and have the best opinions and have every answer for every question.

And so we find it very difficult to be vulnerable and to say, you know what, I'm not sure what the next step is.

I might need some help.

Let's talk about it.

I think we're trained and positioned to isolate ourselves.

I mean, I don't know what your seminary experience was like.

I know we were in the same class together, but I remember being told that pastors do not have friends in the congregation.

And so you're set up to be at this hierarchical position, and it leads to loneliness.

And one of the terms I've been wrestling with lately is I'm trying to describe we don't get there by choosing to go there.

We get there accidentally.

So the phrase I've been using is accidental isolation.

Over time, we keep buying into that narrative and we keep living that out.

And eventually you're going to get to a point where you need somebody, every one of us needs somebody.

And then we're in a crisis moment because we're told we're not supposed to need anybody but Jesus.

And I get it, it's true.

And he sends people around us to support us and encourage us along the way.

So let's get dig into a little bit more because I'm curious.

You talk about accidental isolation.

What are some of the warning signs for a leader that you're kind of falling into the accidental isolation trap.

You're.

You're At a place of you're not sleeping at night, you're wrestling with big decisions, complex situations, and you want to talk to somebody about it, but you feel like this false guilt narrative underneath that says, you should be able to handle this alone.

Don't involve them.

They might use it against you and you start talking yourself out of it.

And over time, the sleep problems don't go away and the anxiety in your head and your heart don't go away, and you're just wrestling with this swirl.

So those are some of the signs that I've experienced and I've heard other people talk about as well.

You just don't know who to go to.

And if you do feel like reaching out to someone, you're very hesitant and reticent to do so.

So we're both pastors, and we've been pastors for over 30 years.

And I'm curious for you and maybe pastors you've talked to as well.

I know I've talked to a lot of pastors.

What happens when we carry that burden for too long and don't feel like there's someone we can share that burden with?

Oh, man.

All kinds of things happen.

Physically.

We get unhealthy.

We don't eat right.

We give into addiction to try to solve and to numb what we're feeling.

Depression, discouragement.

We give into distractions because we lack focus, because we just don't want to think about it anymore.

Those are just a few of a long list of things that creep up where the enemy just has a field day with our souls.

Wow.

Yeah, I've seen all those.

This last year has been hard.

I've seen a lot of pastors I know have to leave the ministry because I think the pressure is too strong.

I just had a conversation with some mission leaders just recently, and we were talking about our church by the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is kind of shrinking a little bit.

We're seeing more and more, and I'm sure you've seen in south Wisconsin, I see it in Iowa.

More and more dual parishes, more and more ministries combining because they can't afford sustainably to support a pastor.

And so I asked Senate, I asked the question of.

I get that we're trying to figure out, can we put together healthy partnerships?

But my question is, is this healthy for the pastor when you just keep adding more and more responsibility to an already overworked pastor?

Are we asking the question, is a dual parish healthy?

Is more ministry points healthy?

And who does the pastor talk to about when you say, let's go from a single ministry to a double triple point parish.

What are your thoughts on that?

Well, I think we're kind of, I think you said it.

We're not focusing on our leaders.

We don't have a system that supports our leaders.

And I think we need to acknowledge that.

If you're just talking about the Missouri Synod, from my experience, the circuit district place that is supposed to be encouraging and supporting is not.

It's become regulatory.

And so you don't feel like you can even go there for support or encouragement.

We don't know how to, I use my two words from the beginning.

Staying curious and leading from behind.

I mean, I don't think we know how to do that very well.

And so where do you go?

Where does a pastor go?

Does he go to his board or to his church council or to his elders?

Does he go to his staff?

If he has a staff, does he go to his circuit visitor?

Does he go to his district president?

Where does he go?

Where does he go to be human without being exposed and threatened?

And that's a question we need to be answering alongside of the question about churches and closures and all of that.

And then we could talk about what we need to do to create and form more pastors.

And that's a whole debate that we can leave for another time.

But yeah, well, yeah, that's a whole nother conversation.

But where do, where do we go?

Right.

We talk, we started to talk about, you know, safe spaces.

Where can pastors be fully human?

In your work with executive coaching and coaching pastors, how do you help vulnerable pastors find that safe space to have those vulnerable conversations?

Well, I, I was just, it's interesting.

I was just talking to a business leader, a faith, a Jesus follower who's actually owns a business, a for profit business.

And he was just saying, I just need a place.

And this is a little rough language for your podcast listeners.

Forgive me, but he says, I just need a place to puke it out.

Right.

You know, I don't need to go to someone that has a big agenda for me or some big program that I need to go through.

I've been through all those.

I know how to find those.

I just need a place to get out, whatever I need to get out so I can feel better and learn some things as I talk that help me move forward.

And so what I do is I just try to provide a space for someone to be safe, to talk about whatever it is they want to talk about.

And certainly there are tools and resources we can Give and find together in those conversations.

But I just going back to staying curious and leading from behind.

I just believe when someone reaches out to me and they want to sign a contract with me for whatever length of time they know, they can just come and they can deal with whatever they want to deal with with someone that is going to keep it safe and help them sort it through.

That's good.

So let's dig into your book.

I love the title.

Your internal board of directors is such an intriguing concept for those who are not familiar with your book.

What is an internal board of directors?

We all have voices in our heads.

And I'm not talking about Randy Orton, you know, yeah, we're not talking about crazy stuff.

I'm just talking about narratives in our head that we have allowed to go rent free for years that have taken up residence and influence us and lead us.

And so in the book, you internal board of directors is, we all have voices that have led us for a long time, and some of those are not leading us in a path that leads to healthy life or thinking.

And so the only way we can ever lead those voices and lead them well is to name them, recognize them when they're showing up, and then allow some other newer voices that we'd like to have at the table be able to speak.

And so I want you to imagine, and this all started for me, going through my own season of really dark season, where a therapist asked me, jeff, what.

What name would you give?

Would.

What avatar would you make up or create that gives embodiment to the voice that has been the prominent voice in your head throughout.

Throughout your life?

And we're talking childhood all the way through adulthood.

There's probably a primary or one or two voices that are largely dominant that have gone unchecked for years.

And so I took that assignment and I went home and I had some fun with it because she said, please have fun with this.

Don't make it so heavy.

And I came up with my avatar.

His name is Sheriff McShudster.

Because the prominent voice in my head through all my life has been, you should.

You should know better.

You should have figured this out.

You shouldn't have done that, you know, so should, should, should, shouldn't on myself all the time.

So Sheriff McSher was born, and I came back with my assignment in hand for my next session.

And she said, now, are there any other voices you'd like to invite to the table that maybe have never gotten a chance to speak because Sheriff McSher has been so dominant and so I took that assignment out and I created Braveheart Barnabas, you know, the New Testament Barnabas, son of encouragement, you know, a voice that is just with you, whatever you do, wherever you go.

Got your back, man.

Just go for it.

I got your back, man.

I need that kind of voice in my life.

Inquisitive Ian was another one I came up with, running along the line of staying curious, just asking questions like, what is trying to happen here?

Instead of just getting all tight and anxious about what is taking place.

Look at it from a place of curiosity.

And so I created these voices and imagined them in a boardroom setting.

And so that any situation I confront, I can pull from those voices and I can listen to them as they speak to me.

And then I created one, Paracletus Aletheus, you know, and you'll recognize the Greek words there.

But that's the spirit of truth.

Because ultimately, every voice I want to listen to needs to be grounded in the truth of God's word, the truth of his heart as well.

So that's where the book came from.

I legitimately just wrote the book based on my experience.

And then it's very practical to help anybody who reads it be able to create their own internal board of directors and start leading the voices instead of trying to either fight them or get rid of them, because that doesn't work.

Right.

And keep coming back.

Dig a little deeper into this idea of defining your core challenges, because I think as you talk about this board, I've really curious about that, but I'm also curious as how do you, as a leader or as someone who's kind of reading this book, how do you know who you are as you're trying to work with these boards and these voices that are inside of you to make sure that you don't bury.

It's very easy for us to listen to a voice and be guided by that voice, even though it's not part of who we should be or where we should go.

So how do you define, okay, this is who I am?

How do I make sure that these voices help me stay with my core values and my core beliefs?

Well, I think, first of all, have you defined your core beliefs?

Have you articulated your personal values, the things that are non negotiables for you?

Have you done the hard work of nailing down three or four values that really drive you?

Like, could you come on Dr. Reverend Dr. Keith Haney's podcast and answer that first question that I answered earlier?

Can you answer that with clarity, like, what are the things that drive you.

Why are they important for you?

Can you do that?

If you can't, let's go through that work.

And I've helped many with that as well, because one of the things, especially in the ministry area, I suppose it's the same in corporate America as with executive leaders, too.

But our institutions or the group that we're leading, or the group that we're in as we lead.

So if I think about my church or I think about the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, they all impose upon us values that we are supposed to espouse, Right?

And over time, they have expectations of us about how we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to show up in the world.

And eventually, if you are not clear on who you are, you are going to be owned by those values, you're going to be owned by those expectations, and you will lose yourself in the process.

And I don't think that's what God has in mind for us when he calls us into ministry.

I know he says, take up your cross and follow me, but he's still speaking it to me, right?

I'm still a unique human being.

He has created me uniquely as a masterpiece, as scriptures say, to do good works.

And so I don't just do what everybody else tells me to do.

I have to be able to sort those out and sift through those sometimes competing values.

And I would just encourage anybody who feels like they might be losing themselves in that process.

Let's talk.

Let's get clear on who you are.

I think that's why clarity is so important as we go about the leadership business.

Like a true podcast expert, you segued into my next question beautifully, which is about vision and clarity.

I do a lot work with congregations on vision and clarity.

You know me, I'm.

I'm a Cardinal fan.

And I think you're.

You're probably a Brewers fan.

I'm sorry about that, man.

But I use an example.

Neither one of our two organizations about the Cubs and the vision that Theo.

We can agree on that.

Yeah.

Vision that Theo used to get the Cubs after 110 years of mediocre.

We all know what the Cubs stand for.

Completely useless by September.

But anyway.

But you talk a lot, work a lot with vision and clarity.

And I know from the work that you do, helping especially churches figure out vision and clarity is so critical because we can do so many things and spend so much time, so many dollars, so many human equity on things that are not producing.

How do you help churches gain vision and clarity or individuals gain vision and clarity.

Well, with congregations, I actually work with Oxano, and there's a really dynamic process that we've used through the years.

I've used that with over 35 churches and even for profit businesses that help people understand the group, understand their unique DNA, and that is their identity, what sets them apart from a thousand other businesses or churches.

And then the clear direction.

So identity and direction.

And there's a process that we lead people through with that.

I think with individuals it's the same thing.

Helping people understand their core mission, their core non negotiable values, their motivations, and how they show up in the world and help them understand and articulate that in such a way that they can make decisions.

Because every decision you make to say yes to, you're saying no to something else, right?

If you say yes to somebody's expectation of you, then you are in that same moment possibly saying no to something else.

That is really something that God wants you to focus on.

And it's not just a selfish thing.

It's not just, I just get to pick what I want to do.

That's not what I'm talking about.

Because at the heart of this is servant leadership.

But there is a way, there is a time for us to say, no, no, I'm not gonna do that.

But here's what I will do, right?

So I'll give you an example where I had a conflict in values.

And this was years ago, and I preached a sermon on reaching your neighbors, right, with the gospel of Jesus.

And a lady came out of church, and I won't name which church it is, and it's not the one I'm currently serving in, so you can narrow it down from there.

But she came out and she handed me a slip of paper and she said, here is the name of my neighbor, here's their address and their phone number here.

I loved your sermon today about reaching my neighbor.

Will you call them?

In that moment, I had a conflict of values.

Can you see where the conflict in values would be for me?

Knowing me, Keith, Yeah.

I mean, is it my job as the pastor to reach your neighbor?

Or has God given you that opportunity as the neighbor?

And so what I did in that moment is I said, I love that you love your neighbor enough to write this down on a piece of paper.

Would you like to meet this week and let's talk about how you could engage with your neighbor.

Let's come up with some creative solutions of how you can engage your neighbor.

And let's pray for your neighbor and let's pray for you.

This person did not want to do that and left very upset with me that I was selfish and was not a good pastor willing to go and make that call.

So there's a conflict in values for me.

I believe I'm called to a congregation to help inspire, equip, free up, send out every baptized believer to be a missionary.

That's a core value for me.

And so if I take that away from someone else, I'm not being true to myself or my calling.

And I've had pastors tell me that I'm not being true to my calling.

You should have done that.

You should have made that call.

And there's Sheriff McSher.

I should have made that call.

I should have just taken the slip and just called.

That neighbor Cold called.

Just Cold called and told him your neighbor wanted me to reach you, but I didn't.

Yeah, I'm imagining how that conversation goes.

My.

My neighbor sees you such a great center that she sent me over to talk to you.

Yeah, right.

You need to come to church.

That's right.

But I get that, you know, the church often sees us as the paid professional.

And I've heard that before.

We pay you to do this, Pastor.

And my response back is no, you paid me to equip you to be better believers, to be better Christians.

My job is not to do it for you.

I don't wanna rob you of the ability to do what God has called each of you to do.

And he sends all of us out every single week.

When I go into a congregation and talk about vision, what I talk about is I ask the question, how many people attend here on a weekly basis?

And they'll tell me, like, 120.

I'm like, well, isn't that great?

God sends out every single week, 120 missionaries into his mission field.

And that's what we have to remind people.

You are the missionaries.

We are here to equip you, you to help share the gospel with those around you, because you have the connection, you have the relationship, you have the proximity to the mission, because God sends you into that space.

So I don't want to rob you of the ability to do that.

Now.

They gave me the same look she gave you.

I was like, well, that's depressing.

I want to be that person.

But you have an opportunity to use your vocation, use your interests, your connections, to be a great witness of the gospel.

Yeah.

And not everybody shares that value that you just articulated.

Right.

But that goes the value that I just articulated.

And so when you have values and you get clear on them, they're going to come in conflict with somebody else's at some point.

And so then what?

How do we manage that?

And that's why I think everybody needs a coach, everybody needs a counsel to, you know, to talk about these things and to help sort through what are next steps.

What are next faithful steps I can take with whatever it is I'm dealing with.

I want to circle back to something else.

I've noticed in the work that you're doing and this idea of trusted relationships.

One thing I see continued in your work is the transformation that often happens in trusted relationships rather than just informational ones.

Why are trusted advisors and the work that you do so important?

Well, I don't think we make any progress.

I think we can control people.

Certainly we've experienced that.

Right.

Where just.

But it doesn't.

Controlling does not change the heart.

It does not influence someone.

It does not transform someone.

Only trusted relationships can create transformation.

And I think our Savior Jesus models this for us very well.

Our God models us for us very well.

Right.

He didn't just decree, he gave himself.

He entrusted himself to us.

He built trusting relationships with those who were following him and would be about his mission.

He didn't just make demands with threats of litigation or whatever.

You can't influence someone if you don't have a relationship with them.

So I think it's critical.

So I want to talk a little bit more about the idea of coaching versus mentoring, since you're a coach, kind of distinguish between coaching and mentoring for us.

Yeah.

Go back to those original words.

Leading from behind is coaching.

Mentoring is leading from in front.

So there's a place for mentoring.

And I'm not disparaging mentoring, but I think too many.

Too many people lead only by mentoring.

They tell people what they should do.

They show them how to do it instead of helping them from behind, discover what they're called to do and discover how to do it.

So that's the big difference.

Your book kind of sets us up to make sure that we have around us a good, healthy system, including good internal voices.

In your mind.

As a coach, what does a healthy support system look like?

Well, you have that place.

You have that safe place where you can puke it out with no threat of whatever it is you're going to puke out is going to cost you something, whether you're going to be exposed.

And I think alongside of that, I think we need brothers and sisters in Christ who are walking the same path together.

And we're Challenging each other, holding each other accountable, reading the Word together, and will support us as we journey along.

So I think those two components are key.

I love talking to pastors who coach other people.

And because leadership books often focus on strategy and execution, but leadership is also deeply spiritual.

How has your faith shaped the way you coach leaders?

Oh, it's everything to understand that while I was still a sinner, while I was still breaking all the shoulds, the shoulds I shouldn't do, and the shoulds I should have done while I was still shouldn't, God sent forth his son.

And so the foundation of all of this is the freedom we have in the gospel, the peace we have in knowing that you can take that next step that God's leading you to take.

And you don't have to be afraid to take it, because no matter how it turns out, you are loved and you have a safe place in his arms.

And so it's just foundational to everything.

It makes the person I'm working with, if they follow that faith.

And most of the people I work with are believers, not all of them, but they're open to understanding the foundation of faith as well as we coach and counsel.

But to help them tap into that and realize you can't fail, and that gives people courage to do crazy things that open up a whole new world for them.

Like that person that came out with that slip of paper with the address.

If they could have given themselves a chance to tap into that, they might have experienced the most amazing experience they've ever experienced.

Maybe seeing their neighbor come to faith because they were.

They risked it enough to overcome their fear because obviously they were afraid.

They didn't want to meet with me.

That's what was driving it.

Right.

So it just gives us courage to go where he's leading.

That's how I would shortly answer that long answer I just gave you.

So let's have a little fun.

Whatever comes to mind.

First, here's some questions for you.

Coffee or tea?

Neither.

Oh, wow.

No, probably a bubbler.

Probably a bubbler.

That would be my answer.

C. For those who from Wisconsin, a bubbler is a water fountain, isn't it?

No, no, I'm talking about the.

I'm talking about the energy drink.

Oh, the energy drink.

You hear a bubbler, you think, oh, the water fountain.

Yeah.

Thanks for the clarification, Keith.

That's good.

Early morning or late night?

Oh, man.

Probably both.

But I would say I would lean towards late night.

Favorite leadership book besides your own?

I don't know if it's a leadership book.

It's not a leadership book, Keith.

But I'm sorry for all these qualifying answers.

It's such a bad.

Yeah, right.

But I am wrecked by this new book.

I don't know if you've heard of it.

Theo of Golden.

No, I haven't heard of that one.

Oh, my gosh, it is just so beautiful, and I am just enamored with it.

So if you get a chance to pick up Theo of Golden, pick that one up.

All right.

The other book I'm starting to work through right now is it's called Next.

Oh, and it's Pastoral Succession.

That works by William Vanderblomen and Warren Bird.

You know, I'm 60 years old, so we're starting to think about what's next, you know, and preparing the congregation for succession.

One word that describes great leadership.

A gift.

Biggest leadership myth.

You got to know all the answers.

What's your favorite way to recharge?

Take a nap.

Most influential memoir in your life.

Mentor in your life.

I'm sorry,.

Mentor.

My dad and Ron Goodman.

One habit every leader should develop.

Clarity.

Best conference you ever attended.

A one that follows up with coaching.

There you go.

One thing leaders need more of today.

Safe places.

Cool.

So, Jeff, we close every episode with this question.

When leadership journeys are finished, what do you want your legacy to be?

That I gave myself fully to what God led me to do and that I made relationships and the spaces and places I resided in productive, free, and full of love.

So we have something else on the podcast that's kind of new.

A surprise question.

Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

Give me a 10.

Oh, I love this one.

Which band or artist, dead or alive, would you want to play at your funeral?

Am I going to get in trouble with this?

Well, you're dead.

It wasn't that bad.

At this point, man, it's either like Led Zeppelin or the Eagles.

Queen, something like that.

There you go.

I like it.

So, Jeff, where can people find you?

Find your coaching practice.

Way to connect with you about vision, clarity, find your books.

Yeah, I'm jeffmeyercoaching.com is my website.

That's the best place to go.

You can also find me on Facebook.

I've got a personal Facebook account.

Jeff Meyer also got Jeff Meyer coaching account.

Also LinkedIn.

Jeff Meyer coaching as well.

Well, Jeff, thanks again for being on the show and providing such great content and such great answers, especially for leaders.

Encouragement, friends, leadership has never was, never intended to be a solo endeavor.

Strongest leaders aren't those who carry everything alone.

They're the ones wise enough to build trusted relationships and seek counsel, invite accountability, and remain authentically human.

If today's conversation encouraged you, share this episode with a pastor, an executive, business owner, or a leader who may need to hear what they're not that they're not alone.

And if you're a leader looking for a confident space to think, process, grow, and lead with clarity.

Remember, even shepherds need shepherding.

Thank you for joining us on Becoming Bridge Builders.

Until next time, keep building bridges, cultivating trust, leading with courage, and pointing people toward hope.