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Hello and welcome to The Close the Loop podcast.

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I'm your host, Kevin Dieny, and today we're gonna be talking about How To

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Solve Marketing Incrementality with Data.

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This is a topic that just the title alone is like, what in the world

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are we gonna be talking about today?

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What is marketing incrementality?

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Are we gonna be doing data science here, or are we going to be um,

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pulling out our graphing calculators?

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No, no, no.

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We're gonna keep this very simple.

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The whole purpose of this episode is going to be, to make sure that we're

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measuring our marketing effectively.

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That's basically it.

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You know, why do we wanna measure it effectively?

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Well, you're spending money on marketing.

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I think everyone's question, and we've reiterated this many times in our podcast,

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is how do we understand what's working?

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Therefore, how do we know when we're spending a dollar, we're spending

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money in marketing resources, efforts, that it's working, that it's

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impacting positively on the business.

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Now this, specifically this topic, juxtaposes with marketing attribution.

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Marketing attribution is not the same thing as marketing incrementality.

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And I think that's a really good place for us to start is what's

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the difference between marketing attribution and marketing incrementality?

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So marketing attribution, let's focus on what that is first.

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I think if I said, asked you, you know where you are right now,

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what's marketing attribution?

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You'd probably think, Well, it's probably just proving what marketing did.

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That'd be an amazing one liner to say, Yeah, that's what marketing attribution

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is, and that's, that's pretty, that's pretty close marketing attribution.

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In a, to be a little more specific, right, is measuring all of the

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touches and interactions, engagements that you have data on before, maybe

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during, maybe after that are going on with your business and the.

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Visitors, prospects, leads, patients, whatever it is that your business re

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you know, delivers revenue from all those interactions, everything that's

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happening there, that's, you know, the goal of marketing attribution

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is the study, the measurement, the tracking analysis of all those touch

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points, everything that's going on.

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And that's incredibly valuable.

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Maybe the overarching component of measuring marketing is being able

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to measure the things that happen with your business and everything

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going on with your consumers.

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You know, that's, that's hugely impactful to being able to get

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to marketing incrementality now.

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So what's marketing Incre mental?

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Marketing incrementality is a little bit hard, so I'll have to give you some

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examples, but the definition is going to be knowing which conversions, you know,

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which high impact interactions, which revenues, which deals, whatever it is,

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would not have occurred, would not have happened without the influence of market.

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Marketing touchpoints, measuring all of them.

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That's, you know, part of the fold of marketing attribution.

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You wanna know everything going on, measure it so that you can

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see if you know what is happening before people end up converting or

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buying or whatever they're doing.

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Incrementality is looking at it like, Well, fine, people are watching my TV

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ad and visiting my website, but when they have bought, if they really wanted.

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If someone wanted to buy or, or to be a customer, a consumer of whatever product

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or service you offer, couldn't they have done that without seeing the TV ad?

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Did they have to go to the website?

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Is it, is it possible that they could do that through other means?

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You know?

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Or maybe, yeah, the website is critical.

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You know, this is how my business functions.

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Or maybe there's a marketing channel that is driving a huge

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proportion, a large number.

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Of your conversions, your revenues, your profit.

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And so an incrementality would say if it could have happened, if it

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would've happened without it, then it's not part of incrementality.

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It needs to have been required almost like, uh, it needs to have been nearly

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essential for this to happen now.

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That's kind of a nice way to look at it.

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I mean, a lot of times, even when I've asked people who.

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Or completely oblivious to what's going on in marketing.

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Sometimes I'll hear them say, no.

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That's what attribution is, right?

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That's being able to prove that marketing did something . Because

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if it would, it could, It could have happened without the marketing.

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Then why did we spend money on marketing?

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Right?

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. Now that's the big problem here, right?

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So why is that?

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Why is proving marketing's value always such a pain?

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Right?

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And that boils down to quite a few problems.

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In the realm of what we're talking about.

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One of the more poignant, I think, phrases, quotes, that's out there, it's

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even been mentioned on our podcast a while back, is, I know my marketing's working.

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I just don't know which part, and I know parts of my marketing arent working.

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I just don't know which part.

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, I don't know, maybe which campaign, which keyword, which page.

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You know, what's not working, what's not.

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Ultimately helping my consumers move along a progression toward buying.

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And this is where a lot of arguments come up, because things like branding,

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who cares about a logo, who cares about a website, who cares about

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something being read or orange or looking nice or looking poorly?

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You know, like what does it really matter?

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Like the car you sh you drive.

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To visit a client, does it really matter?

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And answering that question is difficult cuz you, you can't rewind time, you

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can't ask the person and guarantee knowledge of what they would've done if

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you hadn't shown up in a specific car.

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Right?

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, it's not, it's not really feasible.

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You can't go, Hey, I see you bought those shoes.

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You know?

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If you hadn't have seen that ad last Tuesday, would you have still bought?

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Maybe they'd say, I don't know, maybe they'd say, Yeah, I probably

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would've . It's, it's not something you can basically get anecdotally.

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So then you go, Well then how do you get it from data if you can't

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get it from what people remember, what people are gonna say, right?

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Cause it's slightly unreliable.

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How do you understand incrementality?

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So the other part of this is, sure, we can get it from data.

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Yeah, like maybe we look at a thousand people who show up in a nice car and a

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thousand people who show up in a poor car and see how, you know, based on

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the fact that they're equal performers in every way, who closes more deals.

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You know, possibly the car is some kind of an influence here.

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But at the end of the day, is the data accurate?

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Is that really gonna give us.

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A result that we can rely on, right?

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An a result that we would say, Okay, wow, cars are making a difference.

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Let's go buy all our sales team new cars, you know, like the

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type of car they show up with.

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The nice of it, like the, the look of it.

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You know, if that matters a lot, then maybe it justifies the cost of buying

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some brand new vehicles or whatever.

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Is it accurate?

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It sure we can't rely on people, so then we go to data.

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But is the data even accurate?

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Is the data even gonna be suggestive?

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A result that we want to take as a business.

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If we're not even willing to buy a whole new fleet of cars for our team, then

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what's it, you know, that's who cares.

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So that brings us to the last pain, which is.

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Let's say you totally understand anchored mentality in your business,

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meaning you know exactly what is required, what is influencing your

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consumers to buy, to be, drive revenue, to drive profit in your business.

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You know exactly what, So if you, you had a knob sitting in front of

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you and you could turn it, increase it, and go, Okay, I'm just gonna go.

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I'm gonna spend $10 and I'm gonna spend a hundred dollars and it's

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gonna go up by tenfold in my return, tenfold in my revenues.

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You know, my profit's gonna go up, uh, by tenfold if there was a

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little dial, simple kind of thing.

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And you knew exactly the incrementality, right.

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How would you, what dials would you turn to get the most out of it?

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Right.

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Is it as simple as just one dial?

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No, right.

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It's gonna be okay.

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Well, I see.

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In this period of time, social media's having a great impact.

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An email over here and the phone over here and the texts we sent, you know,

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and the reviews that people are looking at, the video that people are watching

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on my website this month is having a huge impact, but the next month it wasn't.

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Why did it go up and down, or why did it go down and then up , that's all

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part of this problem that businesses are having and why it makes it so painful.

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Why it's so difficult?

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Because people, things change and it's hard to have a reliable single dial.

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You might have a couple, Okay, I see that these are all impacting

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it, but how much do I turn 'em up and which ones do I turn down?

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Maybe these three are helping, but since this one's helping

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the most, I'll turn it up.

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But if I turn one up the most and the other's not as much,

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then there's a displacement.

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Where my, maybe my budgets are allocated, my resources are allocated, and then if

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things aren't out, are out of balance, maybe all of a sudden it works worse.

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So, all right, so this is the pain, the problem.

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This is what we're dealing with here.

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So at the end of the day, all again, let me refocus what

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we're trying to talk about here.

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Is, how can we get to that point where we under, we better understand how

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our marketing is effective in what we can do, what dials we have, right?

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What levers we can pull, what doors we can swing open, what doors we need to

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close, what dials we need to turn down to make our marketing more effective.

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That's what we're after, an incrementality at its best.

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Does this at the point of small, medium sized businesses that we're talking about

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who don't have PhD data scientists who don't have the time or luxury or even

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the interest in doing a lot of data incrementality tests or experiments,

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or even giving, even caring much about marketing attribution at all, right?

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How can those type, how can these smaller businesses find value out of better

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understanding what's happening in their marketing and their marketing strategy?

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This isn't just to evaluate an agency.

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You know, if you are an agency, this is great.

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If you are a business who's running marketing?

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This is who, this is who it's for.

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Anyone who's running marketing, that's who this is for today.

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So the first thing about understanding all of this, What it requires.

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Okay, so let's set this up.

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Uh, the path we're about to take has some requirements.

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Number one, you gotta culturally across the board care.

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Cause at the end of the day, you're gonna wanna take action.

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You're gonna wanna turn a dial or turn down a dial, right?

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And if you're not willing or interested, or care much about turning or up or up or

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down a dial to get more out of what you're spending in marketing then is not for you.

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No, don't even bother going forward with this.

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Okay.

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This is for, okay.

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Maybe I'm willing to see if my marketing could be more effective, and if I do find

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out there is a way, I am totally going to turn out the dial or turn it down.

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That's requirement number one is a, I would say almost like

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a culture of informational and data awareness and interest.

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You have to be willing to do something with the data you get.

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Number two, you're gonna need the right tools and the right people.

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Now you're not gonna need million dollar tools.

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You may not even need to spend that much money at all, or, you know,

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might even get by with free tools.

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Fine, Right?

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But you're, you're gonna need, resources are gonna come out of your company in

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some way or another for this project.

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So allocating resources, whether it's actual, you know, monetary budget

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or it's time or effort, you're gonna need tools and the right people.

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Okay, So that's the next requirement here.

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Then the last one.

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Is Okay, you said you were interested in, in turning this dial, you said, Great,

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if I knew that this specific ad or this source information, or writing this blog

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article was gonna help my business over the next six months, you know, go, like,

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basically go from here to there and it's only gonna cost me a little bit.

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I would totally do that and these are the things I would do.

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You need to have a plan.

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You have like some sort of a strategy or, or at least in your head, get

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whatever I've learned, whatever I find out, I'm willing to take action on.

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That's like the orchestration part and having that plan or idea in place is

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again, the last requirement for running incrementality and solving it with data.

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So let's go through, now that we understand the requirements, now

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that we understand what's ahead of us, what's gonna be happen.

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So here's a good question to start us off with.

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What is really harder measuring marketing attribution or getting

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to marketing incrementality?

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Marketing attribution is difficult because it's really hard to accurately.

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Measure and attribute the touchpoints, the engagements across, let's say, every

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consumer at every interaction that, that that consumer has with your business.

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It's difficult.

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Don't get into why in a sec, but incrementality requires that not

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only have you measured points, but that you have sort of a controlled

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environment where you could see.

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Everyone's doing, whether or not they're interacting with these

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channels, maybe specific channels or not, because that's how we're

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gonna start measuring incrementality.

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Basically how I explained it before, whether a nice car matters

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in sales, in field sales, right?

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Or in, uh, your team going out and meeting and interacting, going in the homes of

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consumers, you know, the quality of the vehicle they drive, the cleanliness of it.

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Does that really matter?

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Right.

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And how you would do that would be okay.

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We have the control or a group, a large group of people who are gonna go out and

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do the same exact thing, who have the same, very similar skillset and experience

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and everything to the same kind of people they're gonna visit, but they're

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gonna have a poor car, a Chevy car.

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And then we have the group that's gonna go and they're very, again,

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these groups are very similar, but they're gonna, the only thing that's

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different is they're gonna have a nice.

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So you see this is kind of this experimentation.

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Is how you're gonna say, Okay, well now I can see poor car, great car.

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I only have like 10, 20 cars in my fleet or in my team.

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I can't do a thousand cars . So, but that's where we're going to be dealing

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with marketing data, which is much more vast, much larger, much higher quantity.

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So you can do things like this, you can do experiments like this, and

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that's how we're gonna get there.

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And that's why incrementality is actually kind of more difficult.

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Cause not only are you measuring the touchpoints and interactions,

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you also have to kind.

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Set this up in a controlled and test or an experimental way to know what

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is, what's happening and how maybe certain channels are impacting, or maybe

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not just a combination of channels, but a single individual channel

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is impacting your, your business.

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So here's another thing that's, that's going on.

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Sometimes it, there's, uh, it might be easy to settle on.

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Well, let's just, let's just lean on marketing attribution models.

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The most common of those is called last click attribution.

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Just say, okay, whatever.

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Long as we're measuring the last thing they did right then I know at

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least that thing is fairly important.

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Right.

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They called my business Great.

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So I know they have the call, we're tracking the call and then I can see,

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okay, well it was uh, a Google search that brought them there and Interesting.

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It was a Google search that included my company.

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So that's what did it.

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And then you say, Great.

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Done.

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I know it's driving my business.

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It's consumers typing my company name in and then calling me.

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So maybe my website should just be a giant phone number and maybe my

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business and it's keywords should just be my brand, my brand name.

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You know, maybe that's all it takes, but you see how that's kind

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of misleading and weird and, and obviously that's an extreme example.

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Of going about this the wrong way, and there's other marketing attribution

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models like first interaction or equal interactions along the way, or

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just the polls or there's database.

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There's all these attribution modeling techniques to say, Well, maybe these

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touches mattered more than these touches, or maybe these touches should matter more.

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And so we'll give, basically you take the amount.

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Either the lifetime value or the revenue or the profit of whatever you got.

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Like let's say you sell a consumer a new roof and it was $30,000.

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You go, Okay, 30,000 is how much we, uh, revenue we.

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Okay, let's take that amount and spread that over.

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What brought 'em in.

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Okay.

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While there was a salesperson, there was, uh, who came to them and

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gave them the quote, an assessment.

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But how did we get there?

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Well, they asked for a quote on our website.

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They called us.

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They came from a Google search.

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And so you say, Okay, well there's these four touchpoint.

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Let's take the money and go, you know, increment.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:01

Spread it out and go, Okay, so now we can see how much, you know, revenue's

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:06

coming from our organic website search.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:09

This is how marketing attribution's working.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:12

And that's why there's different models of trying to assess

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:14

that incrementality, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:17

Is saying, Well, they wouldn't have known to search for your brand

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:23

if they didn't know your brand.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:25

So that one doesn't really get a lot of credit.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:28

Let's go back a little further and see where they learned your brand, where

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:31

they under, where they were educated, where they became aware of the problem,

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:35

where they became aware of the solution, where they became aware of you being a

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:38

solution provider and how they became comfortable and trusting of your business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:43

Could that have included reviews, could that have included, uh, videos?

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:46

Like anything like that has incrementality components in it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:49

And that's where we wanted to really understand it is also possible that, you

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:54

know, because they searched for your brand name and you came up and we see that that

Kevin Dieny: 00:18:59

is having a huge lift in conversions, that that might also have some incrementality.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:03

That's where, okay, Ryan gonna get too crazy here, but that's

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:08

data driven attribution.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:11

That's data driven, marketing sort of, and, and how it's done.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:16

We tout all day.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:17

Go track every touch you have, so you have that data so you

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:20

can do something with it, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:22

If you don't know where your business is coming from, that's, that's

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:27

first, that's, that's primary.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:28

Having a way that people can even get in touch with your business,

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:31

an email, a form, a call, a chat, a text, whatever it is, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:36

Those methods are walking into your business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:39

You know, if you have a storefront, making sure those things are in place.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:42

Operationally is usually the the starter.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:45

So we're assuming that that's happened.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:46

Then we're assuming you're tracking those touch points and that's

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:49

how you're getting attribution.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:51

So then we're getting into incrementality.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:54

So here's how we're going to solve this with data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:19:58

We're gonna look at the data we have.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:00

Okay, So there's two groups.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:02

There's a group data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:03

We have.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:05

B group data that exists.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:07

We don't have it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:09

For instance, , this is a good example.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:11

There are interactions.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:13

You just can't measure.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:16

You'll never, you can't measure someone saying to their brother, Hey, I, you

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:20

know, this roofing company came by and gave us a quote and it was great,

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:24

and that's how we got our new roof.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:26

A referral like that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:28

There's no tracking capability.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:30

There's no tool.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:30

It's like, Hey, your brother, like this is how many times your business

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:34

has been mentioned between brothers or between brothers in-laws or

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:36

between uncles or family or neighbors.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:39

That doesn't exist.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:40

You know, referral tracking like that is difficult.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:44

Oftentimes you'll see referral links and gift cards and stuff in exchange

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:48

for that information, but it's not telling you the full truth there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:52

There's also interactions that are measurable.

Kevin Dieny: 00:20:56

In a span, but it's hard to measure their impact, right on the greater hole.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:03

Like think of rain falling on a lake, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:05

If all the rain came down in one big, giant rain drop, make a big splash, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:13

Make a big impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:14

But when there's like a tens of thousands of tiny little

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:17

raindrops hitting the water, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:20

Those are all having little micro impacts all over the place, and

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:23

some of them canceling each other.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:25

Sometimes the repetitive use of a channel or marketing is having

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:31

an impact, but it's also having a negative impact called saturation.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:35

Someone sees your ad over and over and over again.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:37

They start to forget about it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:38

It starts to become less important to them.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:40

It starts to lose it's uniqueness.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:43

It's why companies spend money making newer advertisements all the time.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:48

You know, the old one gets boring, the old one falls out of their interest,

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:52

So all this is happen.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:55

So there's the data we have and that's what we're only gonna focus on.

Kevin Dieny: 00:21:58

The data we don't have, can't get it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:01

Too difficult to get too costly.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:03

You're not tracking it, just put it outta your mind.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:05

Focus on whatever you're tracking today.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:07

Whatever you know.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:09

Right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:09

So what do you have?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:10

What do you know?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:11

Do you have a crm?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:13

Do you have call information?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:15

You have form information?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:17

Do you, you know, in your store front, if people come in, do you know.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:22

You count that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:23

Do you know anything about that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:25

Maybe you take their information at the computer so you have it when

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:27

they order or they when they don't.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:29

If they come in and they leave, do you know anything about them?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:31

You know?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:31

So what data do you have?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:33

Focus just on that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:34

And that's all we're gonna do incrementality on today.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:37

So of the data that you have, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:41

I would also look at it like, how much of it do I have?

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:46

And that's where I was talking about the, the cars.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:49

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:50

You have, Let's say you have 20 trucks, 20 vans, 28, your team is 20 people.

Kevin Dieny: 00:22:56

Is that enough to do a large experiment with?

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:00

Possibly not.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:01

You have five data points.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:02

That's it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:03

Over the span of a year, not gonna be helpful.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:06

So again, you have the data that you have and then there's

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:09

data that you have at quantity.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:11

Again, that's again, we're gonna need to kind of focus on.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:14

There is still importance in the data that's of small quantity.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:17

It's.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:19

Difficult to assess an incrementality, uh, because of the, you know, we need

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:24

to be able to experiment with it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:25

We need to be able to say, Some with some without.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:28

And that might be difficult with small quantities of data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:31

And if you, you know, if five things happen in a year and next year or six

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:34

things happen, would you be really, really willing to bet a lot of money that that

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:39

happened because of something you did?

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:41

Or could it just have been chance, you know, or you got lucky, or that

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:45

person referred someone to their brother behind the scenes and you didn't know.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:48

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:49

stuff like that is why we wanna focus on the large data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:53

The other thing we wanna focus on is things that you can.

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:56

So you're getting a lot of visitors to your website, but it's all

Kevin Dieny: 00:23:59

falling under the The channel.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:01

Direct, okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:03

Or other or unknown , right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:07

You don't know where they're coming from.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:09

You don't know how they're getting your url.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:10

You don't know how they're coming to your website.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:12

Can you do anything about that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:13

No, not really.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:15

Sure.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:15

Other channels are having an impact, but directly influencing that may

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:20

not necessarily be possible, and you could be of high quantities of data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:25

So we're filtering that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:25

Again.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:26

Again, think about what do you, what data do you understand in your

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:29

business that's of a certain quantity that you can do something about?

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:34

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:35

Visitors from ads can do something about, I'm gonna calls your team's getting,

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:39

or are putting out or outbounding the appointments they're setting.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:43

The times that things are happening, visitors to your website, maybe,

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:48

um, from, yeah, again, social ads, sources that you control, maybe that

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:53

you're spending money in is again, probably a pretty important one.

Kevin Dieny: 00:24:56

So that's all gonna come into play, the things that are

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:00

in this other bucket, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:02

Your reputation, your brand.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:05

Those things are really hard to know and measure if things are happening.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:09

The swag, the type of truck, the logo, you know, those things, those are difficult.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:15

You can run tests on those, but those are, those are difficult.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:19

Um, your reputation, I'm talking about how people, what people

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:22

think and understand of your.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:24

Your company, your review based reputation, you could definitely

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:27

do something about, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:29

Like we have these tools, we measure 'em, we respond to reviews, we encourage

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:33

people to leave reviews so you can get your reviews higher and get higher.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:36

You know, the better service you're out putting Will will bring

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:39

in higher star rating reviews.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:42

So you can't have an influence on that, but your just general reputation

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:46

in the community, how you're known, that's a lot harder to assess.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:50

So all these things are silos, pockets, and areas of data all over the place.

Kevin Dieny: 00:25:55

The thing you really want to now, now we're getting to, is the data you have.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:01

You need to be able to connect it to each.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:05

So I took a pause here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:08

, cuz this is really important question.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:11

How are you gonna stitch the data together?

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:14

How are you gonna take your data and tie it together to make sense of it?

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:19

Right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:22

This is where incremental for smaller businesses is what I wanna focus.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:29

The bigger enterprise, bigger companies can afford machine learning algorithms.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:33

They can afford to do pretty hardcore experimentation across their channels

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:39

to get an interesting mix, uh, an interesting combination of, let's

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:46

say statistical results, statistical modeling, there's also tools out there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:51

That we'll do that kind of for you, or we'll look at every channel and

Kevin Dieny: 00:26:55

its impact and its influence and, and run its analysis and break apart

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:01

and pull apart all the interesting stories going on in your business data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:06

But let's ignore the tool.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:08

Solution that are costly.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:09

Ignore anything that costs money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:10

For now, let's just look at how we're gonna stitch this together.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:14

Let's tell this story.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:17

So first we're gonna look at the dependencies.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:21

Which is how do we tie information in one system to data in another?

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:27

And I'm gonna start with a simple, the simplest way I can do this with you,

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:32

which is we're gonna tie websites, website interactions to campaigns.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:40

You are spending money somewhere in ads, let's say.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:44

So you're spending money on Google.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:45

Google local search ads, Google Local services, ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:50

and you're getting leads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:52

People are calling your business for a specific service.

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:54

Great coming in, you're getting these leads, and then they're

Kevin Dieny: 00:27:59

booking us appointments.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:01

You're having an assessment or something, a quote, uh, it's service

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:05

is delivered and there's payments, and you're, so that's the span.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:09

That's the simple touch points.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:11

In this example, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:12

There's searches, web visits, local service ads, calls, appointments, quotes.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:19

Service delivery payment.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:22

That's what we're looking at here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:24

Okay, so you run campaigns first, local service ads, campaigns,

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:31

maybe Google ad campaigns.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:32

You also have organic your, your SEO call that your organic campaign, your

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:40

organic campaigning campaigns is just saying, you know, what efforts are

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:44

there and we're grouping them all.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:45

Al.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:46

So each of these campaigns is running, and then someone sees your local

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:53

service ad and they call it, All right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:28:58

So how do we stitch together the efforts we're making in our

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:01

marketing campaigns to this call?

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:04

Okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:05

So first of all, when.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:08

We're spending money in a campaign.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:10

If we're using, and you should be using, this is how you do it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:13

UTM parameters.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:15

Any time anyone visits your website, you're gonna see what

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:18

campaign is coming from, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:20

Organic and search don't, You won't find that, but you'll see them.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:23

That's channels.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:24

You'll see them showing up because the source and the medium will

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:26

be there and it'll say, Sources, Google or Yahoo, or aol, or.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:31

Whatever search engine people are using do dot go.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:34

You'll see them, Googles and stuff, their searches, and you'll show up

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:37

as organic in your web analytics, which again, what you're doing here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:42

So you get, you may say, Okay, look it, I'm seeing 10,000 visitors from

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:46

like my organic, and if you search console, you can even see what queries,

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:49

what searches they're typing in.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:51

Great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:52

If you're spending money on ads, you're gonna see what

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:55

campaign is happening there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:29:57

Now, if it's paid ad, Facebook ad, Google ad search ads, whatever it is, if they

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:02

go to your website, right, they're gonna, you're gonna see the campaign created.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:07

Visitors.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:08

Now, when there's a call, that number that they call needs to be

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:13

unique to either the campaign or the channel or the visitor or whatever.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:17

So that way you can go, Okay, they saw my local search.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:21

They called it and they called the number.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:23

I can attribute the call back to local service ad because that number is

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:28

associated only with local search ads, and this is called tracking in a, in a

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:33

bubble here, in a very quick explanation.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:36

So now you go, Okay, great, I'm getting this many calls from local service

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:42

ads, Boom, I've got my how much, what campaign, what I'm spending, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:47

And on the other end I'm getting, what I'm getting out of it, my results, my calls.

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:52

Now you're not gonna see in campaigns the people here, really, right At this

Kevin Dieny: 00:30:59

point, all you're seeing is a campaign, which is an effort, how much I'm spending

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:03

and resources there to make it happen.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:05

On the call side, that's where you're opening up people.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:08

Now, people data contact, data, lead data, and we're seeing, let's say,

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:13

Bill, Called my business at this time, and he came from this ad and this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:19

So we're saying, Bill is now associated with this campaign and this campaign.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:24

I spent this much money.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:26

You're linking them together.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:26

Those two silos, you're bringing 'em together cuz what connects

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:29

them is the call and the call, you can tell, came from that campaign.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:33

Hopefully this is making sense.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:36

You're stitching those two together.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:37

Now we're gonna go further than that.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:40

We see the call resulted in an appoint.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:43

So now we can say, Okay, now an appointment is resulting in,

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:48

resulted from this campaign.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:50

Now there's a quote.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:52

Someone shows up, they get a quote, then they purchase, It's

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:55

service delivered and I get paid.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:56

Awesome.

Kevin Dieny: 00:31:57

Now I have revenue against my costs still.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:00

We're just talking about attribution right now, , we could see what we

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:04

spent and what we got out of it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:05

And if we total this up over the span of time, after six months, we spent

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:09

this much and we got that much out.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:11

Awesome.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:12

That's so cool.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:14

But let's go a little further, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:16

Let's go into incrementality.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:19

So now we see every point along the way that's happened here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:25

We also have that search, maybe organic campaigns, maybe other social campaigns,

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:31

campaigns happening before the local ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:33

Did those influence the local app?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:36

Were they incremental?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:37

Meaning, was any of them essential?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:40

To that person seeing the local ad and then following up and calling

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:43

and moving along that way, that path.

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:47

How do we assess that?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:49

So again, you only have some data points, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:53

Did they visit your website?

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:55

Did the same person who visited your website also visit your website from

Kevin Dieny: 00:32:58

seeing the local ad, are we seeing a, let's say, Channel mix of people who

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:05

are visiting our website from search and visiting our website from paid ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:11

Are we seeing those two happen, Like those two channels happen together

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:18

at any quantity of time that results in people calling or filling out

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:22

a form or contacting our business?

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:25

That is how you would look at this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:27

And if you see, wow, uh, we do, we are getting a lot of searches.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:32

And we're getting a good, good amount of, let's say Google local

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:35

search ads, leads, uh, quality leads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:39

You could probably say, yeah, there's probably some incrementality

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:43

going on, but now that brings up, okay, now we need to know for sure.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:49

How do we know for sure?

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:50

Right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:52

So this is where it gets real fun.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:56

real interesting.

Kevin Dieny: 00:33:57

Okay, so now we need to set up an experiment where, We have a group that

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:02

won't see our search ads and a group that will see our search ads, and we

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:09

need to see our local services ads and we need to see if, when the local search

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:14

ads are in there, if the, and we keep the, you know, maybe organic search or

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:19

other campaigns going at the same time, whether they're having an impact on us

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:24

getting leads and sales and revenue.

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:27

So how would we do.

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:29

Let's say you've got locations, multiple locations.

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:34

So let's say you got three, and let's say one of them is pretty far away in

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:39

another, maybe county, another area, People from this area are unlikely

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:44

to call that one way over there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:47

Okay?

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:47

So that one over there is where we're gonna run the test because it's separate

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:52

enough, it's distinct enough, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:55

We're gonna run.

Kevin Dieny: 00:34:57

A lot of paid campaigns, maybe Google ads and Google local search ads

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:01

together over here, Facebook ads, whatever it is you wanna do the test on.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:05

So I guess for this example, let's say Facebook ad, you're gonna run

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:09

a Facebook ad with Google, Google's local search ads right here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:15

But in that third location, you're just gonna do the Google local search ads.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:20

Okay?

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:21

Budgeting the same strategy, the same, managing it the same.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:25

You wanna try to have these two examples be everything the same except

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:29

for the Facebook component, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:31

And you're gonna need to do this for a longer stretch of time.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:34

That way you could say, Okay, I have Facebook ads going and Google

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:37

local search ads going over there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:38

I just have Google local search ads going.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:40

So it's Facebook causing an impact on my overall.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:47

Is it anything an incremental meaning?

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:49

It's helping.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:51

Me drive business, and if it didn't exist, I would've driven less.

Kevin Dieny: 00:35:56

So here's how we would know after, let's say six months location far

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:02

away and location close up, are the have the same sort of result

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:05

in terms of percentage, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:08

Return on investment.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:09

Uh, the revenues are similar, the leads ratios are similar.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:13

The volume of leads, the quality of leads they got is very similar.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:17

Then you might say, Well, Facebook's not having a real lift here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:21

You know, maybe it's not having any impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:23

And so you could dial back Facebook, but all of a sudden if you're

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:28

like, Whoa, all of a sudden this location over here is stuff dropped,

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:33

maybe it is having an impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:35

And maybe there is something about that other location that mimics

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:38

Facebook's influence over here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:40

So things like that are happening all the time, and it's difficult,

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:43

but that's the, that's the decision you have to make is if I knew that

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:47

Facebook is having a, not as much of an.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:50

Maybe I wouldn't spend as much money there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:52

And so you turn it down, but then all of a sudden you realize, Oh wow,

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:56

something's happening over here.

Kevin Dieny: 00:36:58

Maybe it is Facebook and you turn it back up.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:01

If things go back up to normal or over a span of time they do, then yeah,

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:05

maybe Facebook is having an impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:07

That's the difficult, the real tough problem with all of this, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:13

There's seasonality.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:14

You gotta be careful about.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:16

Uh, you don't know.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:17

Some baselines are really hard to establish, like what's really happening.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:21

The data solution for this incrementality is to focus on the information of

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:27

high quality that you have at your fingertips, which could be small, could

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:31

not, could be minimal, and consider what can I do to test if it's working

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:36

and think of, well, where can I.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:40

Something in a controlled way versus an experimental way and run it for enough

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:44

time to see if it's having an impact.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:46

That's how you, that's how you have to do this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:48

Cuz let me tell you, as a marketing professional, a business is, is

Kevin Dieny: 00:37:55

totally willing to cut budget on things that are just attribution.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:00

Right.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:01

Yeah, social people are interacting with social because it, the way they

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:05

understand it is, sure, maybe it's having an impact on the business, but it's hard.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:09

But you know, there's not a lot of confidence there.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:11

Just matching a marketing attribution alone, a business is much more willing to

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:17

hold budget and not cut it on increment incremental marketing, because that

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:23

marketing is essential and is absolutely critical to driving revenue for the.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:29

The components of a business that are absolutely critical to driving revenue are

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:35

the things they're not gonna wanna cut.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:37

What the things that are kind of wishy washy gray, maybe they're causing

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:40

revenue, maybe they're not , those are things that are gonna be like, Oh, that's

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:44

slash and burn this marketing budget.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:47

That's to be expected and that's what happens.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:49

And so you have to be able to prove this.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:52

You kind of start with attribution and then you get to incrementality,

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:55

which again is a lot harder.

Kevin Dieny: 00:38:57

Um, finally there's the concept of the black swan.

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:00

Is there data maybe in small quantities, maybe in rarity, seasonality?

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:06

Is there something maybe that happens on the news or something

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:09

that happens to a competitor?

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:11

Unpredictable, Unforeseen.

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:13

Unknowable things that have a giant impact on your results, right?

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:21

Are there things like that you will not be able to predict or foresee

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:25

them and you don't know, and they may influence your data, and so the

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:27

only way you can know is just, okay.

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:31

The best way to know, best way to get through all of this is go, let's

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:33

just run an experiment once every six months on something important that we

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:37

would be willing to do something about where we see we have high quality data.

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:41

And we think we can influence the result, which is basically conversion

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:46

rate, optimization, experimentation, and marketing, which is so critical

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:51

to keeping budget, holding it, and actually having an effective result

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:56

out of making changes in your business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:39:57

Orchestrating actionable takeaways that are gonna really, at the end

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:03

of the day, move the needle up and progress the business toward growing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:07

That's what's so important.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:11

Ah, I just wanna close out here with, it's exciting to be able to have your

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:19

marketing just lift the business so much.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:22

It's exciting to know that your marketing is incremental, that it's

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:27

essential that it, the business would not have derived the revenue as

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:31

effectively, or as well, or as quickly.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:35

As they as it could have with the marketing that you're doing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:38

And that's what Marketing incrementality is all about.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:40

And that's why you want a database solution.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:42

And when you tie data together, yeah, start with spreadsheets, Google

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:46

Sheets, you could do it for free.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:48

You could do this low budget on a small business, you can do it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:51

There's tools like Super Metrics, which are maybe a one step up.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:54

I'll mention them here cuz they're, I love 'em.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:56

They're great.

Kevin Dieny: 00:40:57

For, you know, pulling data outta silos and new systems, uh, that

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:01

really easily and effectively.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:02

The next level up would, of course, be a data warehouse, Data warehousing.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:05

When your volume gets to a certain level, it's very big.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:08

You, you're gonna need an etl, you're gonna need something to extract data

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:12

out of systems through APIs in bulk.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:15

Put it in, organize it, and that way you can run queries

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:18

and get amazing attribution.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:20

Amazing, amazing results are even going to be incrementality, which is when

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:24

you're gonna be needing to run some experiments and looking at lift and

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:28

evaluating what is genuinely essential.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:30

And you know what?

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:31

What is not?

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:33

It's hard to sift that up, but it's so powerful for a business to focus

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:38

its resources on incremental marketing campaigns and strategies instead of.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:44

Getting further, further into wider and wider and wider into marketing

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:50

theories, ideas, and strategies that just aren't working for their

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:53

business, for your individual business.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:57

And that's it.

Kevin Dieny: 00:41:58

I hope you are not overwhelmed, but encouraged to take a step into the

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:04

faray of marking inter mentality of looking in at what data you have, what

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:09

data's available, what tests you might wanna run, and that way you can assess.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:14

Okay, I'm gonna make, I know how to make my marketing more effective

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:17

from my business and help it grow, help it achieve whatever goal you're.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:22

With that, I'm gonna close it out.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:24

I appreciate you listening to the episode.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:26

And I'm Kevin Dieny.

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:27

You can find me on LinkedIn or anywhere on social media if you can get, uh,

Kevin Dieny: 00:42:31

find us and we appreciate you listening.