Welcome to The Mind Body Marathon: the podcast that puts you on a path to a healthier lifestyle–whether you’re a daily runner or just finding your footing.

Today’s episode is all about coaching: the experience both as coaches and as the athlete being coached, and the current paradigms and ideas around coaching. Our host, running expert Dr. Leo Kormanik, is joined by two colleagues, Jeremy Pope, a veteran ultra-marathoner, and Zach Goulet, a licensed massage therapist. 

All three of the men have been on both sides of coaching–as athletes in high school, college, and as professionals, as well as having coached other athletes themselves. This discussion circles around a central theme of coaching paradigms, personal experiences from high school to professional running, and the profound influence of coaching on athletes' performances and mental condition. 

Dr. Lea kicks off the conversation by reflecting on his early coaching days and the evolution of running logs that sparked competitive spirit among runners. Jeremy and Zach share their own stories, detailing their respective journeys through the realms of running under different coaching styles. 

Together, they emphasize the importance of having a coach who isn't just a guide but a connector who truly understands the athlete's physical and mental needs.

Throughout the episode, the trio debates the effectiveness of modern training techniques, the critical role of mental resilience in endurance sports, and the potentially negative impacts of social media and superficial motivational sources on an athlete's genuine passion and mental toughness. The importance of understanding the "why" behind an athlete's drive for enduring physical challenges is considered fundamental in achieving their true potential.

Remember to tune in next week for more insights aimed at helping you lead a healthier, more balanced life. Your health is a marathon, not a sprint, and the Mind Body Marathon is here to help you set the pace. 

Key Takeaways

1. Personal Coaching Relationships Are Crucial: Leo, Jeremy, and Zach each emphasized the tremendous impact of having a coach who can provide not only training guidance but also mental and emotional support. The connection between a coach and an athlete goes beyond workouts; it’s about building trust and understanding personal limits and ambitions.

2. Understanding Individual Athletic Needs:They discuss the dangers of a one-size-fits-all approach to training, highlighting the importance of personalized coaching that adjusts to an individual's metabolic, psychological, and physical attributes, and responds to personal life situations and pressures.

3. Significance of Mental Toughness in Ultra Running: Jeremy shared his intrinsic motivations and the dark, challenging moments faced during ultra-marathons. These stories illustrate the necessity of mental fortitude, an aspect as crucial as physical stamina, if not more, in overcoming extreme challenges.

4. Coaching Beyond Technicalities: There was a unanimous agreement on the need for coaches to prioritize mental conditioning and toughness alongside physical training. It’s about shaping an athlete's mindset to tackle both seen and unforeseen challenges during their endurance pursuits.

5. Impact of Social Media on Athlete Psychology: The conversation briefly touched on how modern athletes are influenced by social media, where the emphasis is often misplaced on mimicking successful figures without understanding the context of their success. Authentic experiences and individual-centric coaching are deemed more beneficial in fostering true sportsmanship and mental resilience.

Alright. Hello, everybody. This is the Mindbody Marathon podcast, hosted by doctor Leo here, yours truly. And on today's show, we have Jeremy Pope and Zach Goulet. I, myself, am a sports chiropractor. I run the clinical house sports chiropractic and rehab, and, you know, I sort of function as a lot of different things. I sort of function as a coach. I function as a sports physiologist and obviously a sports chiropractor.

And, you know, it's it's our hope in this show to get everybody to basically, you know, operate at a higher level and help their lifestyle and just improve their mind and body, but also, with a little bit of hint of running as well. And, like I said, to my left is Jeremy Pope. Jeremy, tell me a little bit about yourself.

I'm a father first. I have 2 girls. I'm married to my wife, Holly, for 12 years. Nice. Good job on that. Seriously. Yeah. I've been ultra running for probably 8 to 10 years now, so very experienced.

And,

Yeah. Cool. And then to my, right is?

I'm Zach, Zach Goulet, massage therapist here, ZG Sports Massage Therapy. Been massaging for 4 or 5 years, going on after 5 years. And Cool.

Yeah. So this episode is about, coaching. And, basically, the idea here is we're gonna talk a little bit about, like, current, coaching paradigms, coaching ideas. We're gonna talk about, our previous coaching experiences both personally and professionally, like, us as coaches, but also what we experienced from coaching perspectives. So there's a lot of different topics we'll hit here, and and we have Jeremy on the on the show here, and he's sort of our marathon and more expert. He's a seasoned and veteran ultra marathoner and very accomplished, and so we're happy to have him on the show. And then Zach worked at the clinic doing some some coaching as well, all the way from, you know, doing track races up to the marathon, and helping a lot of athletes with that. I, myself, personally have coached people, you know, not, from a standpoint of, like, a professional group or from a standpoint of just helping out a lot of people with their training plans.

And my first profession was with exercise physiology, where I did an internship at Olympic Training Center. I'm working with Mike Shannon there, and and doing so a lot of physiology stuff there. So my my initial exposure into the world of running was actually through, physiology and through coaching. And so it's definitely been, sort of a hidden passion of mine. And I've, had the luxury of being a little bit of a fly on the wall with regards to a lot of the different coaching changes over the years. And so from my perspective, it's been it's been fun for me to sort of analyze these things, but obviously, I'm on the sports injury and sports management side of it, so which kinda allows me to sort of blend the 2. But but basically, you know, what I wanted to chat about a little bit here is is a lot of our coaching experiences. And and, Jeremy, just curious, you know, let's just get started with you.

Like, where how did you get into running initially?

Well, I, I guess I just had a small weight loss journey. I was kind of the fat kid and Small? Yeah. I guess yeah.

What what what did you lose?

I think I lost, oh, maybe 50 to £60. No. I guess. Maybe not small, but so, yeah, through that weight loss journey, I started to feel more healthy and just found running. And So did you use running as the weight loss? I'd initially, I did not. I think it sparked something in there.

What age were you when you started that process? Mid twenties.

So I was somewhere around 25, 26, just getting through college at that point, and, no, I'm not a doctor. So so, yeah, I started with short distance stuff, 5 k's. And, you know, from there, I was just like, I wanna see what's further. Half marathon, and I wanna see what's further. You know? And I just kept kept stepping up.

Yeah. So anybody that doesn't know Jeremy Pope, he really took that to the extreme because further is further quite a bit. So he like I said, he is a seasoned ultra marathoner. Technically, the word ultra marathon means anything over a marathon, but it can get bananas. It can be like 27 miles to infinity, and some people take it crazy.

Sure. Mhmm.

So he's, he's a very accomplished and 50 miler, a 100 miler, and so he is taking on now, so he's kinda getting a little bit more experience with coaching with that because he's obviously been a little bit through the the ringer with those. Had multiple different coaches, and kinda knows what to do on that next level. So we'll kinda discuss that a little bit more. But, yeah, Zach, like, tell me about your experience to just initially getting in running and then kinda what was your experience through coaching and college and stuff. Yeah. So,

I got into running in middle school. So I was, like, traditional sport guy. Like, I did football, basketball, baseball. And then I think most most people that get into, like, track and field, they realize that they can't hit a baseball. Like, my hand eye coordination was absolutely terrible. Like, I was the kid that, like, struck out all the time. And then, like, it'd be like the last game game of the season. I'd, like, hit a triple, and I'd be like, why did I do it all season long? Like, what is going on? But We were

on the team because you could get to 1st base the quickest.

That my dad is coach.

Oh, wow. There you go. So little inside gig. But

yeah. I always had, like, a passion for for track and field and, like, watching it, like, during the Olympics. Like, I always loved it. And then my dad did track, when he was in high school. And so he got me into it. He showed me how to, like, long jump and and, you know, high jump. That was his specialty. And then, yeah, I just found myself kinda gravitating more towards the running side of it.

I loved I loved running. And then, yeah, come high school, was running track, still playing football. I quit after my sophomore year and then went full time running, cross country and track, excelled. And then, yeah, I got to Akron.

So I Tell tell me tell us about your coaches at Akron.

Oh, man. Coaches or or Coach. Yeah. Or coach. Because coaches, they're we had a lot of good characters. So my coach at Akron, it was coach Labatee. Love that guy. Even though he could drive you absolutely up the wall and he was crazy, honestly, he psychologically got me to a point where, like, running for me is just I think about it differently because he got his he got me so psychologically ready.

Now on the on the other side of it, I had an up and down career. Like, my career was, like I've said before, like, a lot of high highs, a lot of low lows, but he always knew how to psychologically get me prepared. And so no matter where I was at in my training, whether I was coming back from injury or, like like, not right where I need to be, I was always able to get on the line and at least he would always say, like, get to the halfway point on time. And I would always try to do that. With him, he coached, if some of you guys know, some of the older guys, he coached Robert Gary and Mark Krogan, both steeps or, steeplers and then Olympians? Yeah. Olympians. And then his, I think his most famous one is he's the coach for Clayton Murphy and coached him to an Olympic, bronze medal in 2016. So Yeah.

So so quite a pedigree for

a coach.

Yeah. And that's in I I think you bring about a great point, earlier. You kinda, like, drove past the point, but with with regards to Lebate, it's like, one of the one of the great things about a good coach that gets somebody to to the next level is, the mental aspect. Yeah. And, there's something called the 3 quarters rule. Right? Where in psychology, they'd study this initially with astronauts where when people were doing missions that were very difficult, like if they were doing simulation missions, most people would tap out at 3 quarters. Right around 50% to 75% done. So, Jeremy, if you think about ultras, most of the dropout rates happen in the sixties seventies, which is the same thing.

See, the issue with the 3 quarter rule, because Zach, you mentioned, you know, get through halfway on time. Yeah. Psychologically, just getting through halfway, digging into that that, penultimate quarter Yeah. You know, 50 to 75% is the roughest portion of most races. Because once you get to that final quarter, we, sort of, know we're over the hump, we just have a little bit left, and you can psychologically dig in and just get it done. But that 50 to 75% segment, you're far enough away from the finish, and it hurts, and it's it's just uncomfortable, and there's

a thousand reasons why you should quit. But it's fighting through that that really matters. Dude, Labatee for workouts. Like, we would do, like, anywhere from 12 to 16 by 400 with I I can't remember. It's been so long ago, but it was, like, shorter rest, and then we would, like, we would oscillate between, like, faster reps and slower reps. And sometimes it would be continuous. And I would always remember, he'd always go, like, when we get to the next, I'd be alright. Got a smile on your face.

Can I see those smiles on your face? And now when I'm running ultras, like, I was just talking to Jeremy before we started and it was like we were I was talking about my last ultra I did and, like, I started cramping really bad and, like, I had to I had to, like, really just kinda figure it out. But then when I got to, like, the halfway point, I was like, you know what? I'm out here. Like, on this trail right now, smile on my face. Things suck, but it's okay. Like, we're here. We just gotta keep on fighting through.

And I feel like at times, it's in an ultra, there are things that are so it hurts so bad. It actually is funny. Mhmm. And, like, I truly tell myself that. I'm like,

just laugh. I don't I

don't really know what else

to do. A 100% true on that.

Like, let's just laugh this off for a second. And, yeah, I think it brings yourself up to this next level.

Yeah. Well, there's a weird thing with, like, running economy and smiling Yeah. Where, I I wanna say now we can kinda reveal this once we release the episode. We can sort of, like, confirm this, but I'm pretty sure smiling will improve your running economy by, like, 3 to 4%. Like, so what that means is you are 3 to 4% more efficient when you're smiling.

I get it.

That is actually equivalent to doing plyometrics for a full season.

If you smile when you run.

You smile when you race. Well, I know

what I'm doing for that.

Which is crazy. So you wanna have a relaxed face, but, like, a slight smile. It's, like, welcoming the discomfort, welcoming what's coming, like

Kipchoge effect.

Honestly.

Yeah. That's a good point.

Why he's up there.

Yeah.

He's right there. Yeah. So I don't know. It's an interesting thought, but, like, that, you know, that so now that we're kinda discussing the idea of, like, coaching and and, you know, people out there that are looking to kind of improve their running, whether it be, like, a a couch to 5 k, or they wanna look to run professionally, or they wanna look to just PR in any event. It's really important for people to understand the mentality of the connection the mental connection of you and the coach. And I think this is this is often missed because a lot of people will hire coaches based on the technical side of it, based on the number side of it and the data. And, like, oh, yeah. They know what they're talking about.

You know, they know this workout and that workout. But it's, like, do they inspire you? I mean, do they make you wanna run through a brick wall? Like, that's what gets athletes to the next level. Like, workouts are like there's no magic workout out there. Despite this double threshold world and despite this whole world that we have going on right now, there's no there's literally no magic workout. I mean, guys were running faster in the sixties and or in the seventies eighties in the marathon than most, you know, American male marathoners right now. And it's like, as of right now, like, what inspired those guys in the sixties or in the seventies eighties, you know, they were doing they were not doing double threshold workouts. They were doing workouts that inspired them. They believed.

I I feel like the connection to the coach in that way is important. Did you have that connection with Labatee?

In in terms of what? Like?

Like, did he inspire you

to do a different career? Oh, 100%. Yeah. Like like I said, like, he was, by far for me, the best psychological coach that I had. Like, he, he would say stuff in a way and and and the thing that was, like, great about him is that he could pick and choose how he would talk to people. So with me, he could be a little bit more blunt. So, like, there was one time that he was like, I just think you're running like a chicken shit. And like, I'll never forget it. It was cross country and I was, it was at Buffalo.

It was one of the first meets of the season. And I was up there with the lead pack and we came up to this like little hill. And I was like, I need to conserve my energy. And so I let them go, and I couldn't I couldn't pick back up. And at team meeting on Monday, he's like, Zach, he's like, at that point, you were a chicken shit. He's like, you let them go. You gave up at that point. And at Mac, it was at Buffalo again.

I got to that point. I was like, I'm not gonna be that. Yeah. And I, I stayed right where I had to be. And, you know, at that point in our, in our, with our team, we finished the highest that we've ever finished.

Yeah. Yeah. It

was pretty sweet.

I know. I had a similar experience where I was in college and, you know, I was really injured my 1st 2 years. And I, at one point, myself from here, I'm, like, moping around about my knee, And then, he's in my college coach comes up to me and he goes he literally goes, do you know what some people would call you right now? And I was like, what? And he goes, I'm candy ass. And he goes, just some people would say those things about you.

You. And this

was at Malone.

He never said that. He was he was so smart. He was, like, I'm not gonna say that to you, but just so you know. And I was really hurt, and there was a thing there, but I did really need to I needed that, you know, and, like, males respond to that.

Yeah. You

know, maybe that that's not a great, you know, technique for everybody, but, you know, it it it's just like you it's important to connect with a coach and have coach be able to inspire you. Jeremy, you had any experiences great with coaches, or are you just sort of like, no. Actually, I've just been doing my own thing?

Maybe a little bit doing my own thing, but, yeah, I had I had a coach for basically the whole 2022 year. Yeah. And I feel like he was a professional athlete. Tyler Green, sponsored by Nike. So I feel like that maybe held power itself. Yeah. You know, like a Nike Knowing he's

been through the gamut sort of thing.

He's been through it. But, you know, it was a long distance Internet connection. So I I I didn't have this thing. Like, I'm gonna run through a wall for this guy kinda thing.

But I think in your case, though, what is really interesting and, like, this is something that I'm starting to kinda get into now that I'm in the world of ultra running is that you are brushing shoulders with some really talented runners, and the community talks.

For sure.

And every time that I've, like, talking to you, you know, I always come out of it with better advice, like, just stuff to kinda keep in mind when I've, like, talked to Arlen. You know? Like, you've come out of it, like, getting some good advice. And, like, I know that you've you run with some you run with some some guys. I mean, I know you do. Well, I mean, I think Wamsley might be one of them. Some sometimes when he's in Ohio, you know?

Definitely some big names. Yeah. But but I think to your point, like, the community connection, the personal connection, that matters a lot.

I think so. I I think also to, like, Zach's point and yours, there's a coach that's not talking the same to 2 different athletes. Right? It's Yeah. You talk different to different athletes and, you know, kinda meet them where they're at.

Yeah. So

Well, I think that's a great segue into my little bit of a coaching experience with with me personally. Not not me coaching, but being coached. But I I think when I so when I graduated from Malone, I was coached by a guy named Matt Woods who will end up on the podcast for sure, which I think would be absolutely fascinating. And Woods is a special person. Mhmm. Very special person. We love the guy. He's an absolute genius, and I don't use that word lightly.

He can talk, circles around anybody with physiology, but he has a sort of social presence that's a little different, and I connected really well with him. And because when I know Matt said certain things, it meant that I had to do it. And it was just, like, very, like, matter of fact. And, you know, when he sort of got very technical and very wishy washy with sort of things, and then then I knew he was a little bit undecided with that workout. But if I knew if sometimes he would come in and he would say certain things, then I knew I had to complete that task. And I would do everything possible to sort of do that thing. And, yeah, he taught me a lot about the physiology side of it, but, also, when it's time to go, you go. Right? When it's time to make it matter, you put all your efforts into it, and every cell in your body is dedicated towards that thing.

I feel like that's a lost a lot right now. Like, I'm talking to a lot of these college kids and some of these professional athletes that I treat, and there's this this this obsession with the right workout, the the volume, the Strava ish of the world.

I was gonna ask that question. Do you think that's what it is?

I think it is. I think I feel like

And social media too.

You know, when you go rocky in Siberia, man, Strava didn't exist. You just go off the grid, and you hunker down, and you work on your weaknesses. That's what Brock did.

He knew he did it. You knew you did it?

Yeah. And that's all that needed to matter. Right? Because when the race comes down to you know, when it comes down to the race, and you're at that 3 quarters point where you're literally asking the question, like, do I go or do I settle? Your body will remember those workouts. And if you didn't if you never back down, if you were inspired and you took it to that next level, you won't back down in a race because it's conditioning. It's mental conditioning. And people want to have this special workout or this special workload, and it's not that. It's literally mental. John McDonald, the late John McDonald, the coach of Arkansas, so I got to meet him a couple times and chatted with him quite a bit, had some couple meals with him.

I used to work at a running shoe store in Atlanta, West Stride, and his niece was the owner of the store. So that's how I got connected with John McDonald. He coached at Arkansas. So he coached for roughly 90 ish seasons at Arkansas, and he won 42 national championships. So he almost won literally every other season a national championship. This guy was bizarrely successful. He was an old Irish farmer, and, was he the most trained on physiology? No. But he can make everybody run through a brick wall.

An old Irish farmer, big hands, big presence, just really made you own your deficits, and really made you go after things. I mean, that's that's what right. So, like, I I feel like people just want this sort of special thing. And in the end, you need inspiration. Right. Inspiration is what makes, you know, moms pick up cars off their kids and do crazy things. Right? That's that's emotion that's that's hunkering down, and I feel like that is missed in this this world of, like, physiology, in this world of, like, you know, the specific workouts and volume, and the Strava ish of the pacing and everything is the is the passion side of it. We've we've lost the emotion.

Right.

And I I I really feel like I'm gonna keep hunkering down on this on this podcast because I feel like we've gotten too technical, and we've gotten too data because it's what's right in front of us. And what's not in front of us is that emotion or in that deep feeling. And I think, like,

to go off that, because I think that's a really good point, is there's a lot of content out there now. Whether that's through like a motivational documentary or like, again, like one of the professional athletes posting their workout, but that's a snippet of what is actually going on. And you wanna always show your best self when you're doing that, whatever that is. Like, even if it's like I was facing adversity and like, I just had to really grind it through. And then like, you know, I, like I said this when I ran my ultra race and I was like, I think some of those ultra marathon documentaries are a bunch of BS because they show them, like, still running into the, like, aid station. But then the, like, I was puking and throwing up and then they're like, Hey, like hugging people and

high five. They don't show the puking. Yeah.

And like, we don't have that, like, that onus of our of, like, our own, like, our own ability to go out there to execute. It has to be, like, a perfect situation, or it feels like it has to be a perfect situation. Well, it was, like, kinda windy outside. So, no, just like, I didn't do that. And they're like, but you had an opportunity in front of you. Yeah.

What I what I would say in the ultra running world is with the content that you're speaking of, it comes from those aid stations. Right?

Mhmm.

There's not, like, on course content.

Yeah. Right.

So you see people at aid stations. They look spry. They're flying through. The meat and potatoes is between those aid stations, and that's that's where the things get real.

Through those meat and potatoes? What gets through you through those aid stations? The periods between them.

The periods between them? I truly love being in those moments when it gets deep and dark. Like, I really, really love that, and I feel like I know that it's an ultra, so I know that it's gonna come. And then when it's there, it's like, okay. Now we're here. It's time to start.

But but why do you like that segment? I'm actually not sure.

Dude, every time keep going back, and I just I I wanna is there something on the other side? Yeah. Can I get further? Can I do it a little bit faster maybe? Can I come out of it in a different way, whether it's, like, you know, like, it's a calorie deficit or maybe I'm I feel nauseous? You know? There's all these experiences. You know? It's the pain within the legs, but there's pain everywhere else. You know? It's a I love it.

I mean, that that's the genius of look. This podcast, obviously, we're talking about running. Right? But running is a yet it it is an activity. Obviously, you put one one leg in front of the other, but it's not about running. Running is about, challenging yourself, and it's about basically that mechanism of, it it it's just it's basically a way for you to just sort of discover how you can push through some very difficult things. And it's never gonna be it it for any of us, being accomplished runners or even if you're not a comp not accomplished, like you're just getting started, it's hard for everyone. Mhmm. And fighting through those battles and understanding the why, I think, is so critical.

Like, we met David Goggins a couple months ago, and and he kept hunkering down on know your why. And I think that's such an important thing, and that's why I asked you that. It's like, you gotta know why you're going to battle for this kind of stuff. Like, why do you wanna even try to get faster? Why do you wanna have a coach? What's the point of it? Right. None of us are gonna be like Kipchoge. None of us is gonna be the fastest ever. Why do you want that?

Absolutely.

Once you answer that question, then you'll go to the well. But if you never answer that question, you'll never go to the well.

That's so true. And I was actually thinking about that when we were, like, like, when I was coaching. And I was thinking about that when we were when Jeremy and I were kinda talking at the beginning, before we started. And I was thinking, like, I never actually asked my clients that I was working with, like, why do you wanna do this? Because most of the time and I did more of, like, general population. I didn't really have anybody that was, like, shooting for the moon or, like, trying to make a USA team or whatever it was, but, like, wanted to qualify for Boston or do this. And but I never asked him why. And I think, like, yeah, you wanna qualify for Boston, but, like, you also have all these other things in your life that are part of your life that need to be part of your life because you can't give up work. You can't give up, you know, some social aspect of it, but there also has to be some sort of sacrifice.

And I never asked them that, and, like, I was thinking about that. I was like, I never asked them that why. Like, why why are you here with me right now?

Well, that's often what I do in in treatment. So I often like, if somebody's like, oh, you know, like, my shoulder's sore or my back's sore or whatever. I mean, like, what do you wanna do that you're not able to do right now? You know, like, why why essentially, why are you here? What what is this injury preventing you from doing? And they might not even know the answer, and but they'll figure it out quickly. They'll be like, I really wanna garden, or I really wanted to run this half marathon, and now I can't. Whatever the level is, it's eating away them. Mhmm. Because they understand that something that takes them away from being physically active eats away your psyche. Mhmm.

Because if you're not able to do what you physically want to do, then you feel lesser. I mean, they're just being honest. So that's the mind body connection. Mhmm. So Totally agree. Yeah. And and I think I think finding the right coach that will inspire you and help you answer these broad questions is critical. Yeah.

Everybody out there can sort of pick pick apart the technique side of it, but are they gonna help you on this this side of it, the mental side of it?

I think that's great. Would you say that maybe defining the internal motivation versus the external?

Yeah. Because I

feel like a lot of times people are

just they're There's a clear external. There's clear external. Yeah.

They're easy. Maybe they're, like,

I wanna modify for Boston, or I wanna make the Olympic trials, or I wanna try to get to Western States or something. You know, they have this thing where they're trying to get to

But the well digging into the well is that in

there. That's a whole different conversation. That that actually might not be a conversation you're even willing to have with, you know, people close to you. It might be too internal. Yeah. You know? And which is fair because, you know, I've I've had people that I've talked to, and I can tell they're they're battling some stuff. And it's like, they might not they don't talk about it. Just keep it inside.

You know, just just let it be your let it be your drive. Let it be what gets you to the next level, because I think that's important for everybody to have that.

It is. It's hard. Yeah. It's a hard concept. And I think, like, having now been on the other side of it, even if it was just for a little bit because I also did coach at Twinsburg too. I I forgot to mention that I was assistant coach at Twinsburg for 2 season.

Yeah. It's a local high school here Yeah.

Cleveland. And, that, you know, that was an eye opening experience to see how much, like, oversight you had on an athlete, even though it like is just running, like you would think about it, like, yeah, I'm gonna sit on the top of my car while these kids go out and run 5 miles, but when they come back and they like ask you questions and they wanna know, and they, are like, if they don't want to, then, you know, it's for the social aspect. And, like, you might not wanna invest so much of your, like, or your energy into it, but you also gotta know, like, don't overstep your boundaries. Like, that's not, you know, and I saw that a lot when I was in college. Like I, I I, you know, I saw a lot of coaches kind of, like I don't wanna say overstep boundaries, but try to be the somewhat authority on, like, everything with running.

So what do

you mean by everything with Like, in terms of, like, rehab or, like, injury, like, issues, whatever that might be. Like, I'm gonna take initiative onto this, and it's a scary thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's it's very critical for, when you're dealing with an athlete, for things to be siloed. Mhmm. What I mean by that is it's very important for the coach to be the coach and for the trainer to be the trainer or the doctor to be the doctor. It's hard to be all of it. Mhmm. I know this personally because I'm obviously a doctor and a provider, and it it's difficult to coach people who I'm treating, because there's just a different dynamic there.

That's why I like the idea of, like, being, you know, a running consultant because even if I'm not directly invested from a coaching direct standpoint, I know when to call b s because I know enough physiology. And so from your perspective, you know, you're saying, like, yeah, there's, like, definitely some coaches out there that that want to a little bit overstep their boundaries and wanna be physicians and wanna diagnose and wanna treat.

Mhmm.

And I think that is the worst idea ever.

Yeah.

Not even from the standpoint, like, that they don't know, but from the standpoint of, like, why would you want that?

Right.

Like, let other people deal with that because that is a whole another thing that you just shouldn't even get involved with. Like, it's up to the doctors. It's up to the trainers to sort

of figure that stuff out. Yeah. And, like, you could inevitably prolong Yeah. Recovery

You could definitely or

healing, whatever that might be.

And

Yeah. Because if you don't actually know what's thoroughly going on, then you might just think, like, oh, you know, this is something you can sort of manage and train through, and it's, like, well, maybe not actually. Maybe there's some subtle, like, thing in there that a doctor would be able to pinpoint, you know, or or a running specialist would be able to pinpoint and and just sort of, like, execute on a different way. But

Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. It like, I never had that growing, like, in my time running. Like, it was especially in high school, like, I loved my high school coach. Like, I loved my college coach. I mean, I love both or both of them. They both, like, inspired me a bit.

I mean, they both helped me, but my high school coach, he was just like, I knew what I knew in running, and that was it. And I'm gonna get you to the point where I'm hoping that I'm sending you off to college. And I really respect that. And, like, Labedi was the same way. Like, Labedi would actually advocate for you if you had something going on and, like, you just didn't feel like, you know, the trainers or or whoever was taking an initiative that he thought was appropriate, he would come in and advocate for you. But he never, like, once was like, here, get on the ground. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna get that one down.

Jeremy, one of the interesting things about the reason why I wanted to be on here is that, obviously, we're talking a lot about the mental side of it and and that whole component. I feel like altruists are totally different. I feel like altruists are almost all mental. I would say very close. And so, you know, it's like, for somebody to be able to put themselves in a position to try to cover a 100 miles or a 50 mile or something like that, they gotta be in a very special place mentally. And I think it's important for us to understand, like, that that component. And so for you, you know, what's some of some of the things that you feel like you wanna add to the table from a mental component, like, with helping to coach people doing ultras?

Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like you need us some level of fitness. Right? Like, you're gonna you're covering a distance that's beyond a marathon. Right? Whether it is just a 50 k, whether it is just 50 miles, just a 100 miles.

Just.

You have to be have some level of fitness. Right? Your body has to hold up to the distance. So, but with that comes all this mental component. I I truly believe I don't know. You you have to put yourself out there to experience it. You know? Yeah.

Like, you mean as a coach?

I was saying more from the athletes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, you have to you have to go and do it to feel it because I don't know. I I think Zach like, you could speak to this. Right?

Oh, 100%.

Once there's so many hours involved,

you know, I I like to sometimes it's not even

the distance. You know? And sometimes it's not even the distance. You know? And eve even if people are trying to do something in the fastest that they've ever done, it's still hours. Mhmm. And those hours are stacking up, which, so, yeah, you have to feel what that physically feels like, but then the mental is is all there as well to then make yourself do it.

Okay. So say somebody is, like, trying to do their first 50 miler and you as a coach are saying, k. It's time to really challenge yourself this weekend. You know, we're couple months out or a month out or so, whatever from the race, whatever periodization you're setting up. What do you tell them mentally about what they're about to experience on that weekend of a workout that you're gonna challenge them that'll be somewhat of a simulation for the 50 miler?

What I would say within that, you're just gonna have to believe that you can do it, 1st and foremost. You have to be able to take the tools that you have and then just go out there and be part of

Yeah. It it sounds so simple, but yet that's why we were initially talking about the why.

I think I can use a good example for this. So, like, my first fifty that I did, I consulted with one of my buddies, Heath Harris. And, Heath Harris is a teammate of mine from Akron and really close friend. And his dad is, like, mister ultra. Like, he's done everything, like, everything. And the one thing that, like, Heath kind of told me from my first fifty was, was like, look, it's gonna get hard. Like, it's 100% gonna get hard. No if, ands or buts about it.

And you can't be afraid that when you're at that aid station, even if you have a plan in your head that you wanna be in and out of that aid station within a minute and a half, sometimes taking 5 minutes, you'll gain that 5 minutes plus more back. But if you, like this is your first one, you don't need to be like trying to go out there and hit a record, but like, you need to put yourself into a situation knowing that, like, if you're at your limit, that it's okay to, like, take a step back. Yeah. And that really I mean, it helped me up to a point, but not really.

Well, I I feel

Everyone has a plan until they get punched

in the Exactly.

Exactly. Mike Tyson. Yeah. So I don't know if you noticed that there.

I did.

Okay. Mike Tyson's on the wall, by the way. But no. I I I really feel like that's an important point because, to your point, you gotta go through it. And it may not, there's a there's a saying in in war that the map is not the territory. When you look at a map, you're like, oh, okay. You know, the city's here and there's a river here or whatever. The territory is different.

The territory is where are the trees down? Where are the undulations? Where is it, you know, boggy? Like, what what what is the footing like? That that's the territory. And so when we say to our in our heads, we want to run this, we want to do this, we don't know what the territory is gonna look like. That's the map. The map is this is our goal. We think we wanna be at these levels. But when you're doing something novel, you know, like pushing the envelope, whether it's speed or distance, whether you wanna run your all out 5 k or you wanna run, a 100 miles, you actually don't know what it's going to be like. I mean, could you ever really tell a mother what it's gonna be like before she's about to have her first kid?

Not at all.

You could literally never tell her. It's crazy. Like, you could think you tell her, but, like, it has to happen internally. Yeah. So that's why I love what you're saying, like, you just gotta prep the athlete. Like, whatever is about to come, you're going to be fine. It has been experienced by many a people. You're going to come out on the other end stronger.

You just have to endure it, period.

Getting to the halfway point on time.

What is, like, maybe that the territory is the number. Right? It's the 100 miler. It's the 50 miler. And then within that is it's the hours. You may have a goal. You know, maybe that goal slips away.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

And it's okay. It's totally okay.

Or the weather. You know? Like The weather. At at the 50, it was like a tsunami tornado Yeah. Crazy thing with the weather. And, like, I know I know my plan went out the window the first half mile when we took off, and I was like, dude, this is gonna be rough for me.

But but even scaling this idea down so we're obviously talking about a little bit of longer distance stuff, but but even talking to, like, high school kids who want to run a fast 5 k, they're obsessed with what other people are doing.

Yes.

And so they always want to compare themselves from, like, a standpoint, like, in cross country. And it's like, look, cross country is literally mano a mano. You cannot compare a race in Southern Ohio to a race in Northern Ohio. You just can't. It's not the same thing. So if some somebody runs, like, you know, whatever, 15, 10, and you're worried and scared about this particular person, you can't do that because you actually you literally did not race them, so you cannot psych yourself out prior to that engagement. And so, you know, it's important to, like, just race, and it's motto a motto, and just get out there and compete.

And as a coach, how do you how do you instill that again? You know? Like, where do you see that? Like That's

where I do not envy high school coaching. Yeah. But okay. So, like, a little bit of a side story. So I started at Malone, which is a Malone College. Now it's Malone University. So I started in 2,001, and I graduated in 2,006. So I was there from 2,001 to 2,006.

Internet running logs became popular in 2003. So when I was when we were recruiting people to come to our college to run from high school, in 2001, 2002, everybody was pretty chill, you know, like, just kinda like, oh, whatever. Like, 2003, they started coming in telling us about their volume and their mileage and all this stuff, and we're like, what? You guys are running that stuff in high school? Like, we couldn't believe it. It became it became an arms race. Now that you've got to see what everybody else is doing, then it up the ante, and that changed their perspective. And that was dangerous because you don't know if that's right for you. So if you see, oh, you know, Joe Schmo in the next town over is running, you know, 60 miles a week, that means I must be running I must run 60 miles a week to keep up with him. No.

That's not what happened. Right. Literally, every single year prior to 2003, that is not how society existed. Right. Literally, we hadn't, you know, Bill Rogers, who trained in Boston in the seventies, did not know what Steve Scott was doing in California.

Right.

And then and, you know, on the other side of the or other side of the continent. So it's, like, it's important for us to, like, keep within ourselves, understand what's right for us, and just work within our framework, and not compare ourselves. And so at the that's why I was joking about the Strava ish world right now. It's great. I think it's awesome. It's it's it's a really cool component. It adds a great lot of great features, but people live and die by that stuff. And that is not okay.

Because somebody who runs 20 miles a week or 30 miles a week is no less than somebody who runs 50 or 60. They might actually still be able to compete with that person, and it is not okay for you to psychologically take yourself out of the ball game without actually toeing the line with that person.

I would agree. I would 100% agree. Yeah. It's it's a it's a weird weird world we live in.

But that's I feel like that's the cool thing about cross country.

Yeah.

Cross country, it's course specific. Mhmm.

It's weather, mud. And it's so hard to get that through to kids. It is. Because they see somebody run fast on another course, and they freak out that they're untouchable. And it's like, that is absolutely not true. Because an alley fight is an alley fight. Right? Right. Right.

When you get into a race, it's an alley fight, and you do not know what's gonna happen in that race. And so to psychologically take yourself out of that ball game prior to that race is is discouraging, at the least.

And maybe it is hard. I mean, it might be hard for a coach now. I mean, because there is so much content out there. And, like, as a coach, you you are only with them for couple hours a day, and then they can you know, athletes can go home and they can get on YouTube and they can get on, Strava and, like, look at all this stuff and start to, like, get into their own heads.

Well, that's why I feel like we'll touch on these training topics quite a bit on this podcast. But but here, that's why I wanted to just start this show with, like, coaching is important. Mhmm. It's vitally important. But it's important from the standpoint of, like, getting your mind right and have somebody anchor you. Right? It's just like talking to a good friend. Right? You know, you sometimes, like, you get stuff in your head and you're you're just kinda, like, running a little bit ragged there, and then all of a sudden you talk to your good buddy and they're like, dude, are you missing this key point? Like, that's a coach. Right? Somebody that just, like, grounds you.

We we lean too much into the technical side of the coaching, and there is that. Trust me. I can talk pretzel pretzels around any one of them, and I can understand the highest in physiology of all of it, whether it's double the threshold or whatever. But I think the mental aspect is is really critical.

Especially when you're young. Yeah. Especially when you're young.

I think it is. Yeah. And and it's it's and and sometimes I feel like when we oftentimes here at the clinic, when we get really good high school kids and then they go to college and then they kinda fall flat, they lost the inspiration. Yeah. You know, the the the college coach was just very technical and very, you know, standoffish, and they didn't wanna run through a brick wall anymore. Mhmm. But then the high school coach was just inspiring them and maybe leaned a little bit less on the technical side of it, but they ran faster. So that happens more times than not.

Well, I mean, you need to be able to have a conversation. Right? You can put x's and o's out there all day, but you have to have conversations, and we all have lives. Right? You know, outside of high school, high school and college, once it's real life now, there's everything surrounding you. You know? There's work. There's there's kids. There's everything.

Yeah. Well, okay. So you bring up the point of conversation. This is my biggest beef right now with the coaching. And I I feel like almost on a daily basis, I am struggling to, like, understand coaches perspectives on the current training paradigm right now in the idea of conversation. So, basically, it's important to understand what your athletes are feeling. Mhmm. K? This comes down to aches and pains.

This comes down to perceived exertion, which is critical and very underrated. And so in the world of, double threshold, which is actually a a a kind of a popular idea that's kind of come out of Norway, where Jacob Ingebretsen, is running extremely well, and, it's it's come out that the Norwegians have this unique training style, and I feel like it's all the rage right now in the US. But I feel like it's literally totally lost in the ether. People do not understand what they were originally doing. Zach, do you wanna allude a little bit real quick, and then let's just kinda have a little little quick conversation about that?

Yeah. I've like, I, like, I feel like with the double thresholds, it is getting lost in in the ether that that's all we need to be doing. Like, that's that's the only way to be successful. And what I found just through my research and, like, my understanding of it, especially through, like, the triathletes of Norway, like Gustav Eden and and, Christian bloom Blumenfeld, I think. I'm gonna I'm sorry if I put your name, but, it is a long tie it's a long process.

Yeah.

It's a lot it's years years in the making to get to that point. It's just so critical. And that, like, that was, like, my first, like, I it's like, oh, it's like it's like Kenyans

Yeah.

When they walk barefoot or they run play like, when you find out that they run to school and back and they have, like, double the mileage on their feet,

it's like, yeah. They've been doing this since 13. So couple key points. 1, Joe Vhoe used to always say that by the age of 18, we are 10,000 miles behind the average Kenyan in terms of running.

That's a lot.

That's massive.

K. So just let that sink in. So it was less about what the Kenyans were doing and more about just work. Just work. Just literally put one foot in front of the other. That's literally all they're doing. There's a lot of other components there too that we can get into a later episode, but on this episode now here comes the Norwegians. They come up with this great idea of that if you run at threshold, which is basically like anaerobic threshold or tempo pace.

This is a a lot of key terms that are being thrown out there. All it really means is this is a point at which your body can clear lactic acid efficiently, And it's the maximum point that your body can clear lactic acid. What is lactic acid? Muscle build up? Yeah. It's basically just like acids building up in the muscle that makes pain. Right? And so so double threshold essentially is where or threshold training essentially is where you are producing a decent amount of lactate, but yet you can still clear it at a high rate. Right. And it's not spilling over. So think of, like, you're boiling water, and water is coming up to the point.

It's boiling, boiling, but it's not spilling over the the pan. That's threshold training. The Norwegians figured out, wow, we can actually compete with the Africans if we go out there and we double or we and we threshold at a high rate. Because if you work beyond the threshold, which is the next realm beyond the threshold is max v o two training, once you work beyond the threshold, it takes a while for your body to to to actually to recovery for for recovery. And so if you never go beyond that, you actually need less recovery. Still, hence, the term double threshold. In a day, they'll literally go out and do a threshold run-in the morning and a different type of threshold run-in the afternoon. Okay.

This is this is the magic. For years, they measured lactate readings with perceived exertion. Right. This is so vital for everybody to understand. And I feel like I'm speaking to a very select few here, but this select few is governing a ridiculous amount of athletes, high school, college, insane number of my patients right now. They did not people are not understanding that the Norwegians honed in on lactate readings at a threshold mark with perceived exertion. Meaning, if I run a threshold, I stop, you prick my finger, you measure my lactate, we determine I'm below threshold. Perfect.

I keep going at that same pace. I do that for years. Mhmm. Next thing you know, that athlete understands that when they're at that certain prick of lactate, I feel this way. Now, years later, I can go, I feel this way. I know I'm below lactate.

And correct

me if I'm wrong. That's how it happened. It's not like you throw it out there and you just say it's conversation pace or it's, I mean, it's like, literally, that's not how it works. Like, I can't I'm I'm blown away what I hear from people. And

correct me if I'm wrong on this because I could be wrong on this. But isn't that threshold different for different events or training events?

This is a great point. Okay. So if somebody's training to run a marathon, they need to capture the threshold conversation slightly different than if they're running the mile. Okay? Because a miler or somebody who's akin to running a fast mile has what's called lactate clearance. They can handle lactate tolerance really well. A marathoner cannot. And so it's important for that person to sway their lactate in one way versus the other. So you can't just willy nilly throw it out there and just say that every marathoner or every filer should be doing these types of workouts.

It takes nuance. That's why I like being the idea of, like, a running consultant because it's I don't think people are getting this 10,000 foot view of what's happening here. And I'm looking at it, and I'm hearing from these athletes, and I'm seeing what these coaches are doing, and it's blowing me away. It's it's literally error after error.

Yeah. So would you say that people are more injured?

Without a doubt. Yeah. Because what's happening is what the genius behind what the nor Norwegians were able to do, and it's genius. No question. It's genius. It's a hack on how we can compete with the East Africans. No question. We being western, right, is the genius behind it is that they realize that if you are in the realm of threshold and below, you can work at a higher rate, which means you can run more mileage.

So now all of a sudden, you can take take an athlete where if they're doing traditional western workouts, they might actually get injured if they ran over whatever. Let's just say 70 miles a week. But if you're doing double thresholds, they might actually be able to push 80.

Mhmm.

Now that's if you're doing it the right way. If you're genuinely following lactate readings and you're genuinely following perceived exertions and you're being very genuine with that, then you can push the envelope with volume. But it's not what's happening. So coaches are just willy nilly ramping up volume and ramping up lactate work and ramping up volume or intensity. And it's, like, when you're, like, you know, working with, like, a a a a recorder or a preamp, you can't increase bass and treble at the same time. Like, you just can't. Like, and if you do that, you have to be very sure and very certain that you are riding the line properly.

And I'm pretty sure I watched the video about them talking about their progression to doing this, and it was like you like, in Norway, you go to, like, a training center, and you're like, I'm going to, like, put everything into, like, my athletics. And they said, or especially the triathletes, that we had to weed out the people that couldn't handle it. It wasn't for everybody.

That's so true. Yeah. So so we okay. This is the end of 1. Right? Nobody would ever go, like, no high school high school coach in basketball. We'd be like, LeBron James did this workout on Tuesday. We need to reproduce this workout. Like, nobody would ever do that because nobody could do what LeBron James is doing.

Right. So why in the world would we have a local high school kid doing what Jacob Ingridson is doing at the highest level?

Right.

It makes no sense. You're missing so many levels of development. 1st and foremost, those kids probably don't even have the right socks on the feet. They I mean, they don't even know what's up or down at that point.

Those those clothes

Those socks are, like, turned over. Like, I mean, like, so it we just have to be honest here. There's a progression to things, and so a professional athlete and what they understand internally and what they feel internally is not what the average high school athlete understand and feel. Mhmm. And so I I feel like this is just absolutely lost in in in this understanding. So, you know and I feel like it's even more with Ultras. Right? So athletes really need to understand themselves at a very high rate to get into Ultras. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, essentially, at that point, it's people are saying, I'll just run more miles to run further.

Right.

That's not the case. Right. Not everybody's gonna be running a 150 miles a week. Right. Yeah. It's just not gonna happen. Time and everybody's injured.

Yeah. Well, one of the things that I'm currently trying to work on is finding your basement. Right? So everybody needs to find sort of their lowest level that they can train to get a decent benefit. And then because I feel like for decades, people have been trying to find their ceiling. They train and they train until it's too late, and their ceiling is their injuries, fatigue, you know, not able to complete their goals. But I think it's important for everybody to figure out their basement. And their basement relies on, do you have kids? You know, do you have a business? Do you, are you, you know, in debt? Are you stressed? Are you do you have a great marriage? You know, do you have a great relationship? Do you feel fulfilled? Do you feel like you're in the right you know, all of these things matter. Because if you're saying, you know, like, yes to all of those, then you're probably going to run that process.

Hard. It's gonna be hard.

But if you're 23 years old and you're, you know, living making a decent living and you got a nice professional job, you have no kids, and you feel like you have, like, all afternoon to train, oh, boy, you're gonna be able to crank. You're gonna be able to crank. Life's good. Like, but if you have all of these these other things, you have to take that in your perspective. You cannot compare yourself to everybody. You have to take all of these things into perspective.

And having a coach to be able to help you with that mentality and understanding where you're at, I think, is vitally important. Yeah. You can push harder. You can push more if you under if you have somebody who can direct you, not in the way of physiology per se, especially if it's more novice, but in the direction of, like, hey, like, you work 8 hours a day and you're on your feet. Like Yeah. You don't need to be putting in 70 mile or, yes, 70 miles a week, but Yeah. You can put in 40 miles a week.

Well, that's why I think it's important for athletes to interview their coaches. Yeah. Yeah. And to just say, like not just like, oh, wow. You're so fast, or you're, you know, you're so successful. You've coached so many people. No. Like, talk to me about you.

What do you think about this? What do you think about that? Like, what do you what what modifications would you make based on the fact that, you know, I have a kid that's this. I have a job that's this. I have a life that that's this.

You're seeing that more too with the older population. I I do have a lot of clients that they will they'll come in, like, I fired my coach. And I'm like, what?

Good. Yeah.

And they're like, yeah. I that's just not working out for me. They're, like, asking way too much. I don't have the time to do it. And then they'll interview their next coach, and they're, creating that process of what you're saying.

Yeah. I can't employ you. That's important. It's huge. You have to make sure because there are a lot of charlatans out there. There's a lot of people out there that are just trying to make a little bit of a, you know, running physiology is fairly easy. I can coach people. Nah.

Come on.

For the 2 of you, did you, as a high school athlete transitioning to college, did you pick your college based on the coach?

Yeah. Actually, I did. I when I was in high school, my high school coach, my last 2 years, she was she ran for my alma mater, Malone, University, and she said, if you wanna run at your true potential, you must go to the senior this university. So when I talked to that college coach, I was, like initially, it was, like, kind of unimpressed with Hazen. But then he said something at the very end of my initial meeting with him when I was in high school and I went on a college tour. He said, you know, he's like, I just want you to know that your potential is not gonna be here in college. Actually, your running potential will happen from 22 and beyond. And he's like, it's our goal to get you to that point.

It's our goal to get you set up so that you can keep challenging yourself beyond college. And then he casually mentioned that at the end of the session, and I was like I walked away from that. I was like, that is incredible. So then when I'm at Malone and I'm running for them in my sophomore year, junior year, I'm thinking that in the back of my head. I'm like, okay. I I'm literally going to be much better at the after this college experience. And so I kept sort of I was injured a lot my first couple years, and that kept me in the game. That little, you know, one minute saying that he had kept me in the game for years.

And thank God he did because I realized an exuberant amount of potential that I never would have realized had he not said that.

Yeah. Mine was a little bit different than that. I so I would say yes and no for me. No in the fact that I picked I picked Akron because they were on the cheaper end. I wasn't a very good student academically. And the, the schools that I was looking at, 1 being Malone and 1 being Ashland, they offered me a scholarship, but it just wasn't enough for me to, like, be comfortable going there financially. But the one thing that Labetti did say, so back when I was in high school, we did a or they had a thing called Tuesday night track, or open track night. And, coach Labady wanted me to come and do a workout.

And, like, I was talking to him back and forth. I filled out the recruiting questionnaire, and I did, like, 6 by 300. I don't even know what the rest was or what the pace was, but at the end of it, he goes, I want you here next year. I can't offer you any money, but you're gonna be be a preferred walk on. I was like, you got it. And, I think the difference was when I got to college, it wasn't about long long term running, but it was about success, capturing success right now. Like, I want you to be competitive in the Mac. I want you to make it to the 1st round in the NCAA.

I want you to make an NCAA final, and I want to get you to run at USAs. And you're like, what? You you think I can do that? Yep. I think you can. And then, you know, then you're on a roller coaster of a ride, but, you know, that's just kind of the division one mentality in in a nutshell. You know? But yeah. So my my my pick was that Labady wanted me to be there, but he just couldn't financially help me. And and Akron was the best institution for me to go to at the time because of where my grades were. And

Yeah. Did you end up you end up alright?

Not not too bad. Not too bad. Yeah. I'll be alright.

Well, you know, I we touched on some great topics today. We're gonna sort of wrap up the episode a little bit. And, so, Jeremy, do we kind of, we do, like, a little bit of a quick sprint at the end here. Zach, you know, I wanted to kinda start with you. What what is, like, one thing that you feel, like, you offer to anybody looking for coaching or looking for guidance with with running? What what's the kind of a quick thing that you can just initially offer them?

Yeah. Openness. Like, being o like, open minded. So understanding that you have a life, having, other obligations in life, and how can we fit coaching into your world? Because at the end of it, like, depending on what you're doing, you can't alter a lot of what you do in your own life. So as a coach, being open minded to be able to fit that into your life, I think that's, like, the first and foremost. Because if your coach understands the stresses that are in your life, then you can be able to give back to your coach what the coach is asking for you. Yeah. That's awesome.

So, for me, it's, it's it's being a running consultant. I've used that sort of term earlier, and there's very few training methods and techniques and running techniques that I I haven't seen, and I haven't sort of come across. And so, for me, it's it's just being that overarching, 10,000 foot view, and just sort of organizing, and and just being a general running consultant. So, I love consulting with coaches on how to make modifications for their team, or whether it be individual athletes on, like, how to periodize their season, or how to close out, you know, sort of land the plane when you're coming to the end of a of a training cycle. You know, that that's definitely a passion of mine, and that's and I would I would consider that definitely one of my expertises. What would you say, Jeremy?

I would say a little along the lines of what Zach said. Definitely the openness, And then, you know, I didn't come from a running background, so I'm truly just a hard worker. I love hearing success stories that are hardworking blue collar workers. Yeah. And I think I I can pull that out of people maybe that don't have it. Yeah. And Yeah.

But I think you coming from the nonrunning background, and it it matters.

And I

think I can relate to people then because I I truly have I have kids. I have all the things, and, you know, I like to but at the end of the day, I truly like to get the best out of myself, and I think I can offer that to people, and help them.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you can too. So, so again, so this is, doctor Leo Kormanic and, Jeremy Pope. And he's kind of the the marathon and more coaching aspect. And and Zach Goulet, the massage therapist here at the clinic. And

That's right.

So again, we're gonna have many more episodes come out, so be sure to keep posted and to subscribe to our page. We're gonna touch on a lot of different topics. We'll even readdress kind of this coaching topic. So feel free to engage with us and let us know what you thought of the episode. And if you had any follow-up questions, we'll be sure to address it in a future episode. And, yeah. So thanks for, watching and thanks for listening and, and, and we enjoyed, sort of having a chat for you

guys. Thanks, Jeremy.

Thanks guys. He's out.