Looking for new ways to share the Gospel with your neighbors? Watch this pivot podcast episode to learn about simple ways the Spirit of God is raising up, calling and sending leaders–especially lay leaders–to cultivate new forms of Christian community that meet people where they are in daily life.

In today’s episode, we’re going to cross the pond to the UK to learn from hopeful seeds of new life that are emerging within a context where there is a long Christendom legacy but only 8% of the current population is actively engaged with church of any kind. Be encouraged with hope-filled stories of emerging communities of faith reaching people in local neighborhoods and helping people discover the difference that Jesus makes. If you want to learn where Christian communities are being started by lay leaders, watch this entire episode about fresh expressions of church being started in the UK.

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Sally Gaze: I think a crucial principle across all of these little groups and initiatives is that it's not about the program. It's not about thinking, oh, here's a great idea that we can roll out and do everywhere. It's not, um, you know, it's not that we've got a food bank. It's not that we've got a kids discipleship group, actually. It's about each and every person. It's about recognizing that each and every person is on a discipleship journey, and it's our job to accompany them and to treat them, each one, as infinitely precious.

Alicia Granholm: So here in North America, we're seeing trends of religious disaffiliation that are actually already far more advanced in Europe. In spite of these changes and challenges, the Spirit of God is raising up, calling and sending leaders, particularly lay leaders, to cultivate new forms of Christian community that meet people where they are in daily life. In today's pivot episode, we're going to cross the pond to the UK to learn from hopeful seeds of new life that are emerging within a context where there is a long Christendom legacy, but only 8% of the current population is actively engaged with the church of any kind. You are in the right place today to hear hope filled stories of emerging communities of faith, reaching people in neighborhoods and helping people discover the difference that Jesus makes. Hello everyone, I'm Alicia Granholm.

Dwight Zscheile: And I'm Dwight Zscheile . Welcome to the Pivot podcast. If you're new here, this is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. In today's episode, we're excited to welcome as our guest the venerable Sally Gaze, who serves as Archdeacon of Rural Mission in the Diocese of Saint Edmundsbury and Ipswich in the Church of England. Sally is the author of the book Mission Shaped and Rural, and has been at the heart of some of the most creative innovation that has happened in the UK over the past two decades. Welcome, Sally. Hi.

Sally Gaze: It's great to be with you.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Sally, I had the privilege of visiting you in your context earlier this year, and I got to meet firsthand a bunch of amazing leaders that you're mentoring and to hear their stories about creative new communities that are listening and loving people in the name of Jesus, often outside of the traditional boxes of inherited church. So I knew our listeners would be inspired by hearing some of these stories as much as I was. I wonder if you could begin by describing the region you serve. What is the Diocese of Saint Edmundsbury and Ipswich? That's a fancy title. Where is it and what are some realities there?

Sally Gaze: Okay, so if you think about the map of the UK, there's a little bit on the east that looks like a pregnancy bump and that's us. East Anglia is the pregnancy bump and Suffolk is the bottom half of that. And it's a it's a rural area although, by US standards, it's quite heavily populated because, you know, we're not so sparse. You know, we haven't got as much land. Basically, we're all crammed in everywhere in the UK. So rural means that, um, quite a lot of our population is in, um, settlements of less than 10,000. Some, some just like a hundred or even less. Um, but those settlements are quite, by your standards, quite close to each other. Um, so, uh, it's Suffolk is Suffolk is the area that we're talking about, and it is by UK standards, uh, quite rural. We've got one sort of bigger town in Ipswich, and everywhere else is rural. Semi-rural, really.

Alicia Granholm: Sally, I'd love to hear how you got started with fresh expressions of church yourself.

Sally Gaze: Well, that's probably going back a long way, actually, when I was, um, when I was 18, I went to work for the London City Mission as a voluntary evangelist. And, um, I just met loads of people. For whom? Church didn't really quite fit where they were. And, um. We had this little system as voluntary evangelists and they would there was the like the prayer that you wanted people to pray to become a Christian. And I just realized it wasn't really quite making sense for people. You know, they'd pray the prayer, but they didn't really know what they were praying. And, um. And so when I started studying theology after that, I was I was really interested in, um. What? What? You know what is at the heart of the Christian faith and what? What makes church church authentically church? Because it's it seemed to me that we'd got all these sort of ideas of what it needed to be in terms of how it was led and the building and, all that kind of stuff that didn't seem like perhaps what the church was like in the first few centuries. And then when I was 21, I sort of went forward for, um, you know, to be assessed to see if I could be ordained. And they decided that I wouldn't be. I got a no. And I went on a retreat to sort of recover. And I came across this amazing book called Earthing the Gospel by a Roman Catholic theologian. And it was all about this. It was all about, um, how do you express Christian life in the culture and context of the people that you're actually with? And I was absolutely captivated by it and, um, ended up writing an MPhil on the subject as well. Um, sort of as I was preparing, I did go back and eventually got ordained. So, um, you know, so that I carried that heart into ministry with me. Really. And the fresh expressions movement came along a little bit after that. And uh, because of the research that I'd done in the area, I ended up being on the, um, group that looked for it was writing the mission shaped church report, which from which the term fresh expressions came. And, um, and of course, at the same time, I was experimenting for the first time myself and finding out what God was doing in the little rural area where I was living.

Alicia Granholm: Sally, I love that. Um, so I want to touch a little bit on evangelism in the UK because, you know, the Church of England is still the state church, but only has around 1% of the English population in church each week. So, you know, you mentioned a little bit about how, um. You know, you needed to try some different things with how to help people make sense of the gospel. So I'd love if you could share a little bit more about, you know, what does evangelism look like in the UK today?

Sally Gaze: Oh, um, well, so one of my, one of the people who work with me, they've got this lovely little phrase and they say, um, hospitality is the new evangelism. And I do think that that is a big bit of it. Um, but not just hospitality in us. I think as a church, we've often thought that we need to provide for people, and that's what hospitality looks like. But actually hospitality often means that we're the guest as well. And so, you know, you think of Jesus talking to the woman at the well and he was the guest. But it was it's all about hospitality, but it was about actually coming from the underside and and accepting what other people want to bring as well. I think we've really that's really been reinforced through our experience of Covid, um, in the, particularly in the little rural villages. Um, church could be really important in helping people out during Covid, you know, just getting groceries and medicine and so on. But it was it wasn't the church doing stuff for people. It was doing stuff with the people. And the good news of Jesus comes through those relationships of love that are built up by working together. And, um. In our culture, it's not that truth is not important. But the propositional truth of the gospel isn't the first thing that people are looking for to find out. What they first want to know is, does it work in your life? Is it making a difference? Can I see it? Will it work for me? And those those are those are the first questions. And then is it proposition really true that, you know, Jesus lived and died on the cross and and you know that those are like secondary questions. They come along a bit later.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Sally, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about some of the mixed ecology or, you know, the fresh expressions. And alongside in and around traditional forms of church in your context. What does that landscape look like? And maybe tell some specifics. Give us some examples, some stories.

Sally Gaze: That it's quite hard to talk about it because it is so incredibly varied. Um, but I will start talking about where our sort of heartbeat came from. And, um, we, we really felt that, um, that we were called to be on mission together with other people. And so at the heart of Lightwave, which is the movement which, uh, that I'm involved with these small missional groups where people are seeing themselves as on mission with Jesus and with each other and learning on the way. Um, and they work to discern what God is saying in their place. Um, and we've just had this enormous variety of things come out of that very simple, basic thing. So, um, our largest initiative, um, is in a community called, uh, Red Lodge. And it really started, um, with one person who came on a course about how to lead a missional small group and who was already involved as, as a, um, evangelist in the community. Um, and she realized that there was an opportunity for more. There were new, there was new housing going up in the community, and there was a lot of social need. And, um, she, she just had a vision for, for more. Um, and we gave her a job, um, to, to basically plant a resourcing church for this new community and to work alongside the local, well, it was a it's an ecumenical church where she was. So it wasn't a conventional parish church. It was a methodist Anglican church working together in the area, but much smaller than was needed by the growing population. And, um, basically, she prayed. That's how it all started. She prayed. And, um. And she prayed for God to lead her to the people, to work with her because she didn't have a group to start with. Although she had lots of contacts, she was so keen not to take people away from their current church. We didn't want we didn't want to take any of that for granted. Um, and things just began to happen. So, for example, she turned up at a vicar's house to talk about their village. And how Lightwave might help them and so on. And at this time she was just basically on her own anyway. But, you know, she was just looking for ways in to, to be able to share the gospel. And the vicar, um, gave her the parish magazine and said, oh, you know, you might find this helpful to get to know the area. And then just as she was leaving, she said, oh, no, don't take that one, because that's the most recent one. Take this old one because I don't need that anymore. So she opened up this old parish magazine, and there in it was, um, somebody who'd written a little thing saying, does anybody feel that they'd like to do church in small groups in their home? Because that's what I feel called to. And I've just moved to this village. And, um, that was, you know, that fitted exactly what Diane was looking for. So she gave her a ring and that became her first sort of partner in crime. So you just really felt that God was beginning to, uh, gather his people. Um, and they have just, um it attracted people by their by their love. Really? Um, over, over Covid lockdown in this country happened quite suddenly and a lot of people were worried about being able to get their medication, about being able to get food. Um, and. This brand new little group decided that it would really serve its community. And if anybody rang them up and they would, they would, you know, respond within the hour and get back to them. And, and, um. And because of that, the whole community started gathering around and wanted to join in. Join in with this volunteer force, as it were. And the first person who came to faith, um, she, she talked afterwards about how she'd always been involved with volunteering, but now she'd sort of discovered, um, the love of Jesus that was at the heart of it all. And, uh, she she explained how people had seen them as angels when they arrived on the door with the medication or just to listen or whatever. And, um, and how that had just really touched her heart. And she came to faith first, and then her daughter came to faith as well. And it began to, to spread that way. And there's still a reasonably small congregation. Um, but they reach out now after Covid. I mean, they're seeing, um, a couple of hundred children every week in their children's ministry and, um, that, you know, that they've it's really diversified, you know, so they're obviously no longer delivering medicines, but people, um, come to their, uh, cafe to help with social isolation. People, um, get, get involved with, um all sorts of things. They've got a Christians Against Poverty debt club. Um, there's there's food banks, there's, you know, and so so the ministry has really developed as each time God has organically opened a door, a possibility.

Dwight Zscheile: So I, I had an opportunity to visit Red Lodge and to see that ministry firsthand. And what was remarkable was, um, you know, it meets in a sports pavilion that is a kind of community space. It's not in a church building at all, right? It's it's really out in where, which is the kind of the natural hub, it seems like for that, that neighborhood with lots of the young families moving in and sort of the football fields and, you know, lots of youth activity and sports being kind of a already a sort of natural center for the community. Um, so, so that was one of the interesting things about it. So that you talked about hospitality as being guests. This whole ministry, it seems like, is about being a guest in a neighborhood space.

Sally Gaze: Oh, absolutely. And it was at the beginning, it was quite a heartache, actually, because when you're in somebody else's space, there are so many limitations as to what you can do. And, um, constantly having to set up and take down and set up and take down all their equipment for various things. But it it has built, you know, being there has built relationships with, um, you know, the leaders of the local community. And it also means that, um, there's quite a lot of very basic level volunteering that's needed and that can be really helpful, you know, and to be able to accept people's offer to help, you know, put out tables and chairs can be really helpful. And there was one guy from there who, um, he said to me he'd been to prison and he said, uh, when when you've, you know, come through the system as I have, he said, people don't want to trust you. They want to help you. But there's nothing you can do for them. And he said, Here I'm, you know, I'm part of the family here, I can contribute. And it was giving him back his sort of self. Risk, worth and self respect. Um. And he did it. He wasn't a Christian at the time he shared that with me. Um, but he he he has now come through and come to faith and been baptized and is, uh, is not living in that, that particular area anymore, but is going on with the Lord in another church. So it's um. But it was really, um, touching to me that the importance of allowing people to volunteer as part of their faith journey and the leader that she she has, she's full of great little phrases. Um, so another one of hers is, um, you know, you're part of the family when you're allowed to put out the bins. And I really love that.

Dwight Zscheile: I love that too. And, you know, so one of the other things that that was really interesting as I visited that community. I think we were there on a Friday night and there was some youth stuff going on. Is both of the combination of, on the one hand, um, the first thing that people encounter is, um, hospitality and love and listening around some need. So whether it be food or opportunity just to connect for people who are lonely or, you know, it's it's some need that people have. Yeah. But everything also has a very explicit Christian dimension to it. And, you know, I think often in the US, a lot of churches struggle with they want to love their neighbors, you know, serve their neighbors, maybe through food or hospitality or just gathering. But, um, sometimes they also then are not so clear about, okay, we want to connect this actually to Christian faith, but but there's some interesting ways that you all have developed and have particularly as experimented with around doing that. And, and one of the ways is around conversation spaces and gathering people in the context of, you know, of whether they're eating or whatever, um, to, to do some spiritual reflection. And I'm curious if you want to say a little more about what that looks like, because it's it's explicitly spiritual, but it's also very inclusive and welcoming.

Sally Gaze: Yeah. So they have a little thing called breakfast chat, um, which is, you know, they just serve breakfast. And then there is a question on the table. And, you know, it could be something really simple like. Uh, what are you looking forward to about Christmas? I mean, that that I can remember that being a really powerful one that came up for someone because somebody, you know, shared that actually they weren't looking forward to Christmas. And then, you know, a whole load of things came out of that where, you know, where they were able to be, um, you know, welcomed and given a community to share Christmas with. But, um, it's. It's those very open kinds of questions and feeling that everybody has got something to, um, be able to contribute in that situation. And, um, they're not the only, um, group that we've, we've had that does that as well, that there's one a few villages away, um, in a very tiny village where there hasn't been the new housing or anything, and they just met with, um, 15 people and they, they have cucumber sandwiches with the crusts cut off, you know, and a nice little, you know, and tea with you and, and cake and, and, but rolled up very neatly on their china plates would be a little question that they could discuss together. And it was really interesting. Um. That that after a while it was the people themselves who said, um, why? Why do you, um, never ask us a question about prayer? So they'd ask very general questions, um, that they've taken from, uh, the National Health Service. Our National Health Service is probably got some areas of spirituality, and they'd use these areas of general spirituality to concoct these questions. And, um, but then it it came, you know, from the example of the people that were there, the the questions came out, well, why don't you tell us about prayer and about what you believe? And and so then there was an opportunity to go a bit further, um, and. I think a crucial principle across all of these little groups and initiatives is that it's not about the program. It's not about thinking, oh, here's a great idea that we can roll out and do everywhere. It's not, um, you know, it's not that we've got a food bank. It's not that we've got a kids discipleship group, actually. It's it's about each and every person. It's about recognizing that each and every person is on a discipleship journey, and it's our job to accompany them and to treat them, each one is infinitely precious. And, um, I think it really helps us that we're in a rural area because we're not, you know, if you're in an urban area, you you can look and you can think, oh, if I put this on, you know, a hundred people will come. Um, you can think about big demographics, but if you're in a little village and actually what you're thinking about is the people I know who would appreciate this or not appreciate this, it becomes very real and and so often the discipleship journey is around, you know what? Jason or Tim or Clare? Um, what they, want to do what they feel their next step is. And and often, um, we might offer something to them and then just say to other people, would anybody else like to join in? And so it's not it's not the way commanding particular big programs, but we're following what God is doing in the hearts and lives of people, that of real people that are there in front of us.

Dwight Zscheile: So I want to, um, draw you out on a couple more stories. So, um, so one of the places where people, um, do gather or want to gather is just outdoors, right? It's a very beautiful part of the country. And you have some experiments that are, um, and communities that are sort of connected to outdoors, like a church on the beach even year round, which when I was there, it was we we did walk on the beach. It was extremely cold and, and some and sort of kind of forest, church kinds of things. And so share a bit about that. That's a place where people already, you think are looking for experiencing the sacred sometimes in our, in our culture.

Sally Gaze: Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's something about, uh, church outside and again, in, in our, in our situation, um, worshiping outside during a short period of Covid was what we were allowed to do because you could, like, be distanced from one another. And so a lot of stuff sprung up then. But, um, yeah. So we've got one, one particular group called Spirit Lightwave, which is founded in a tiny village. And, and they, they, they basically do some kind of outdoor activity every, every month. And it will be, um, walking Palm Sunday, they decided to walk around, um, a lake with the donkey, you know, and, and tell the Palm Sunday story. And, um, it's interesting when you're walking with people how the conversation really flows. Um, I, I joined them, um, at epiphany. Um, there is a sort of continental tradition, which I don't know whether you have as well, but of, um, chalking, uh, the lintels of people's houses at epiphany. You do have that as well. Yeah. And so and, um, so the leader of this group had publicized in the village magazine that they were going to come and anybody who wanted their house blessed with an epiphany blessing could have their lintel chalked and they could have a blessing said over their house. And, um, you know, people just did volunteer and and then and then a group came and it was only about 15 people walking along and stopping, praying a prayer of blessing and and then walking on to the next house. But it was very much built in community. Um. And making a real difference to the people in those houses. Um, I mean, one particularly, um. Somebody who'd been bereaved. You could see it made a huge difference to have their house blessed at that time. At that particular time, um, when the house wasn't as full as it used to be. Um, and. And and it sort of, you know, it it models this evangelism being, um, being to do with hospitality as well because they were in this in a strange way, they were both host and guest at the same time because each house was welcoming them. Um, and, but they were bringing this blessing with them. Um, and. Yeah. So, so I think it's we have another group that that goes on, uh, walks and always ends up at the pub, and they've formed a real relationship with the pub where they, you know, have questions and discussions in this particular pub over food on a regular basis. And that group is in an area where there's a small amount of new housing. And but it's been great to have that sort of, uh, carve on those walks to invite people to. Um, so yeah, they'll take around that. They, they go and knock on the doors of people moving into the new estate, and they'll take with them a spider plant just as a housewarming gift, a little card saying, you know, these are this is what's going on in your local churches. But then they'll also invite them to, you know, a walk or a meet up down the pub, which is really great when you're moving into a new area because you just want to meet some friendly neighbors. And so that's really worked well as well. Um, so even even the outdoor stuff is vastly different. Some of it's very child focused and some of it's actually quite adult focused. We've got one lady who's, um, moved on to, um, a small holding. And she's living in community with some quite people, with some quite sort of deep needs, and is using the work on the smallholding as therapeutic. Um, and then once a month she will, um, lead something called, um, Emmanuel Fire, which is where she will tell a Bible story or a spiritual reflective story. And, um, it'll be around a fire. People who've eaten food together. And it's that sort of after dinner, relaxed chat style that you you get, you know, I if you, if you sit out in the evening round a fire, you know, you get that vibe and, um it's really interesting. It's how people's hearts and minds open up in that kind of context. You know, it's it's a mixture of heartfelt sharing your experience. But also, you know, these chats that you have as a university student that go on into the middle of the night. That can be quite intense. And it's like that, you know, it's, you know, people are bringing up these huge questions with each other. And I think one of the things that really impressed me about that little expression was that people felt comfortable to come to it. Who were, who are miles from wanting to be in a church? Miles and miles and, um. And yet they were having really deeply spiritual. Conversations about, you know, the existence of God, whether forgiveness is possible. Um, um. you know what's the direction of society? Um. Does community matter? Just just huge, big spiritual questions. Um, and helping each other with it. You know, quite a large proportion of people who've not got very much faith background at all, but really open to, uh, using the Bible as a tool to help them think about think about the big issues.

Alicia Granholm: Sally, I love that. And I'm I'm curious. Um, I have a couple of things that are kind of coming to mind as I'm hearing your stories, and, um, they're related to Jesus, and I can't help but thinking about how, you know, um, two things. Really, uh, how Jesus' invitation to the disciples, right? Is is long before his question about who they are, who they say, who they think.

Sally Gaze: Absolutely. Yeah.

Alicia Granholm: Um, and and, um, thinking about the, the element of hospitality and being hosted and how, um, you know, Jesus' encouragement to, to seek the person of peace as the disciples are being sent. And I'm just curious, um, you know, theologically and and biblically, uh, how if either of those dimensions of, of Jesus's own ministry and, um, way of discipling the disciples, um, kind of plays into just the formation of fresh expressions?

Sally Gaze: Yeah. They're both they both really, really mega influencers. Really. So, um, certainly we see discipleship as a journey. And so it's yeah, there may be a point where people make a decision a bit like Peter saying, you are the Christ. Um. But. But actually. To seek that, like straight off, is not necessarily really listening to the person in front of you or walking with them, you know. So, um, and I think it, it is, it is having that heart that you want them to just discover Jesus and hold. But always holding before them the manageable step the next, the next thing that they feel that they might be ready to do or want to do, to explore on their terms, rather than, yeah, so that definitely relates in all sorts of ways. Um, I mean, another one of our, our little groups is, um, cook at church, which is a group for teenagers. And, um, they basically every month that they meet, they, they cook some kind of meal. So they're learning basic cookery skills. But while it's off in the oven, um, they do some kind of, um, reflection and, and often it will involve putting prayer requests into a big mixing, you know, cooking, mixing bowl and then everybody taking out a different one and then praying for each other. Um, but there are other things that they do as well around the seasons of the year. Um, you know, so if they're cooking Easter biscuits, they might tell the Easter story. Um, but, but it's sort of meeting those young people where they are. It's not insisting that they, you know, have to make a decision right now. It's just giving them an opportunity to explore things that they actually themselves are finding interesting and they want to learn about. And it's not hiving it off from the rest of their life, you know? Um, because there. Their cooking and the socializing they're doing. They're doing all this stuff together. Not not not not in just some separate religious section. So yeah, that's quite important. Um, and also we do talk about to our pioneers about seeking the person of peace. And so, you know, that's the, the idea in the gospel is that as you go out on mission, somebody will say, come and come and stay with me. And and when they when you get that kind of invite, you go, yes, please. And you stick with them, you know, you don't think, oh, um, I better spread myself around. You recognize that God's at work in that person's heart. And you and you stick with them. And I think that. That is um, that, sort of relates quite closely to seeing the actual person rather than seeing the program or, you know, and I mean, I think often in a village you will encounter somebody who wants to open a door for you. I'm actually I'm thinking of something from before, from my previous ministry when I was a vicar, and there was this one young woman who who wasn't a part of our church, um. But we had a group of mums who were new Christians and they would organise, um, you know, one of these events where you packed a shoebox for a child at Christmas, and this one, mum, she'd gone to church youth group in her youth and she, she just loved this idea of giving away shoeboxes. To these and she would always buy loads of stuff herself. But not only that, she she would like. She was our best, absolute best, um, advert advertiser for packing these shoeboxes. So instead of it just being a few mums in a, in a lounge packing shoeboxes. It just turned into this massive thing in the school with tables everywhere and the whole school bringing in their. They're bringing in the, you know, mittens and soap and toothbrushes and toys and and it all packing these things together. And. She was a real person of peace. She did the same thing for our holiday club in the summer. Our gospel holiday club. She did the same thing. She wasn't yet fully sold on Jesus herself, but she saw so much good in it that she she wanted to open the door for others and she constantly did.

Alicia Granholm: I love that, Sally. Um, okay, so who exactly leads these communities and how are they trained to do so?

Sally Gaze: Okay, well, it is a real mixture. Um, but mainly it's laypeople. Um, and even some of our, um, paid people have been lay to start with. Sometimes they become ordained along the way, but, you know, um, but mainly it's, it's it's the sort of person that you might think, oh, they could lead a home group, you know, that they would, they would lead a Bible study or that, that kind of, you know, a committed someone who's really committed in their faith, um, but who has a real heart for those outside the church and is not too attached to doing things in one particular way, because you have to be quite flexible around, um, what the people that you're reaching really want and to, to listen to them. So yeah, it's it's a whole variety of people. We have a little scheme actually called Rural Outreach Pioneers, where if somebody is, um, doing some kind of outreach. And it's successful as as a layperson, they can apply um for, um, money to work one day a week to increase their the time that they can give to that ministry. And, uh, well, it's, it's amazing how how people have done that and then ended up getting ordained or whatever because for that opportunity just to exercise ministry. So how do they learn? The biggest way of learning, the most important is to learn, um, by walking together. With the group on mission with Jesus. That is the absolute biggest thing, far above doing a course or anything. It's about, um, not doing it on your own, but doing it. And most people have learnt to be a leader in this, have possibly started by by being in a group where somebody else is leading and they're sort of being apprenticed. And I mean, that's very Jesus' model, isn't it? That's what he was doing with his disciples. And that's what we're seeking to do, really. Um. And. So sometimes it can be a little bit, you know, you develop a group and then you think, oh, it's just got it where we want it. And so, you know, I can I don't need to be quite so on it because I've got this brilliant other leader now. And then once they get to be a leader, they suddenly have a vision for what God wants them to do. And then they're off doing that thing. And you, you have to build up another leader. So, um, but that's sort of the model. Um, and, um, so at a diocesan level, what we're seeking to do is it's just to look out for for people who need a bit of recognition and support to be able to build those groups. And then within the groups, more people will be nurtured to lead as well. Um, but we have other things that that help. So, um, our leaders, we tried to give them a coach, a 1 to 1 coach. And um, also we try to help them to meet up with peers. So, um, in the UK, there's a lovely program called myriad, which is about small scale church planting. And these pioneers, they all sort of meet together not as individual pioneers, but the whole little team, their whole little group. And come on this learning journey together. And it it means that they are meeting other people who are working in a different context, but actually are facing those same challenges, um, of how do I listen to what God is saying in this community? Um, you know, how far, how far, how do I discern, uh, whether I need to bend this to fit in with the culture or whether this is really a gospel value that I need to stick to? You know, those kinds of big questions that they're all encountering and sharing those together. Um, so, so peers are really important. And then I think also, um, what I call sponsors are really important. So I guess that's somebody like me. Somebody who who can, um defend you a little bit, you know, because often those who want to reach out in unusual ways and others can look at them and say, oh, that's not really church. Why are you wasting your time on that? You know, um, you know, surely if you're going to encourage people to walk by the beach on a Sunday, that's just going to stop them coming to our traditional communion service. And, and so having somebody who will stand alongside you, who, who can say, no, actually, this is part of our calling. This is this is something that Jesus calls us to do as well. And it doesn't detract from the importance of that beautiful communion service. Um, but for some people, they're not going to go straight into that. Some people need to walk by the beach first.

Dwight Zscheile: So Sally, this is so rich. And I just want to reflect back a couple of the really powerful themes I've heard from what you've you've shared today. One is just that organic nature of a lot of these. They're very contextual. They're very much about listening and following God's lead in actual particular relationships with particular people and particular places. And so I think, you know, for those of us who have been shaped in kind of these programmatic or standardized, we might even say industrialized, you know, approaches to doing church or even church planting. I think it's really refreshing to hear this. Um, and you've also given a lot of permission. You know, it sounds like within that, that church system, people have, um, the encouragement to actually follow how the spirit is leading on this and then the recognition of, of their leadership at whatever level. And that's another thing, I think, that so many of our churches struggle and church systems struggle with is giving that that permission and sharing that imagination. So I think that's so powerful. Um, so for those of us, those of you who are listening or watching, who might have interest in exploring fresh expressions more, maybe there's a leader in your church, or maybe you yourself feel a nudge of the spirit to to explore what it would mean to develop a fresh expression of church. Um, we have an on demand course on Faith lead. org that walks you through the basic steps of starting a fresh expression of church, and so you can find the link to that course in today's show notes. Um, but, Sally, thank you so much for the wisdom that you've shared and the amazing work that you're doing.

Sally Gaze: Well, thank you for thank you for having me. It's really been I mean, it's been great meeting you both and and knowing that, you know, God is doing very similar things by His Holy Spirit in your part of the world as he is in ours .

Alicia Granholm: Sally, we have loved having you today. And listeners, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you found this episode inspiring and encouraging, and we'd love to have you join us again next week as we take another dive into how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. Alicia Granholm and Dwight shyly signing off on another episode of The Pivot podcast. We'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead. org.