In this episode we explore quiet quitting, what it is, how it is impacting people and whether or not it's a gen Z phenomenon.

The conversation flows toward boundary setting more than once as we discuss the reasons people are disengaging in the workplace. And we talk about the different demographics who are choosing to quiet quit.

• 04:36  – what is quiet quitting?
• 09:03 – sticking to your boundaries
• 11:58 – only 1 in 3 managers are engaged in the workplace
• 15:32 – is quiet quitting only a Gen Z thing?
• 23:19 – feeling in control of your career
• 25:57 – the How To...

As always we share our top takeaways and in this episode we ask want you to think about how you are engaging your workforce in and around purpose. We also share a reminder not to make assumptions about who in your workplace is in a quiet quitting frame of mind.

In this episode we reference research by Gallup  https://www.gallup.com/workplace/398306/quiet-quitting-real.aspx

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the phenomenon.

Phenomena.

No, no, no, no.

Anyway, oh, we are on the end of series high here, aren't we?

And I haven't got gin

Hello and welcome to this our last episode in series

two of How to Take the Lead.

I have got no idea how this has happened.

I can see the lovely Lee in front of me on the screens taking a big gulp of

comforting tea, possibly burnt her tongue, which is not gonna be a good start to

our last episode if she can't speak.

So Lee, how are you doing as we, as we mosey on into episode 10,

Yes, immediately regretted my life choice of picking up my cup as you started

to talk and then But I think I'll be fine.

I think I'll be fine.

If I start talking like this, you'll know that something's happened.

Um, fabulous.

So here we are, last episode of the series.

Um, I know we're not here to talk about how we feel about that, but

how are you feeling about that, Lee?

Well, how am I feeling?

I haven't really processed it to be honest with you.

We've been on this like little merry journey of the last few weeks, and

I haven't quite come to terms with this is gonna be, I mean, it's

never really quite the last episode cause we always have a little bonus

one up, up our sleeves, don't we?

But, um, this is like the proper, proper one.

But I think, I think it's, yeah, I think we've had a good.

Set of discussions, this series.

So I'm pleased with that.

Like feels super professional with our social media channels and all of that.

And had some good discussions with people who've been listening.

So I'm, I think we like ending the series and the year on a bit

of a How to Take the Lead high.

I am with you on the how to take the lead high.

I, I'm just gonna come out there and say it.

I feel really proud of us and I don't feel like a fraud.

Now when I say we are podcasters because I feel like we are,

cause people actually listen.

They give us feedback.

It's very exciting.

But we are actually here to have a leadership conversation as we always do.

And in our last episode, we are going to explore the, I'm

gonna call it a phenomenon.

I nearly couldn't say the word, the phenomenon.

Phenomena.

No, no, no, no.

Anyway, oh, we are on the end of series high here, aren't we?

And I haven't got gin

She hasn't, she's, I promise you it was hot tea.

I saw her burn her tongue on it.

But, we are here, uh, to talk about in this episode the phenomenon

that is, uh, quiet, quitting and how we feel about that.

And also the fact that that is appearing to be linked somewhat

to, is it Gen Z or is it Gen Z?

You can tell I'm not in it, cuz I dunno which way you say it, but anyway.

potato,

Potato potato.

Um, let's go with Gen Z.

I don't feel like I'm a Gen Z kind of, uh, person.

As I've said, we've heard quite a lot about, quiet quitting, I

would say more so more recently.

But I do think it's something, that has been around for a while

in terms of, a kind of thing.

So, the rise of quiet quitting and in particular with Gen Z, we've

heard lots of different people talk about it in the leadership space.

Simon Sinek, Stephen Bartlett.

In fact, in the first episode of this series, I think it

was you, Lee, that mentioned.

Steven Bartlett sharing his views around, uh, gen Z and the fact that perhaps they

might be perceived to be rather lazy and not particularly resilient and, and very

much linked to that quiet quitting thing.

We're reading lots of articles about it and everywhere from

Forbes to Stylist Magazine.

So it is something that is, is being discussed a lot and I wanted us to

explore this and to share our views on, on what we think about quiet, quitting.

So I wanted to start with what we think we mean by this term quiet quitting, and

did a bit of the Google research as we like to do for our episodes Occasionally.

And quiet quitting really is a term that's being used to describe

being in a job, but not really being there, if that makes sense.

So maybe not doing that extra effort, not going above and beyond putting minimal

effort in both sort of physically and mentally, with some people even saying

that quiet quitters have checked out.

So they're turning up, they're doing the do, but they've checked out,

they're, they're not really, uh, that interested, in what's going on in terms

of their job and their organization.

So I just wanted to get your view on what we as leaders, or perhaps

even what we in society are really trying to describe when we bandy

around this term, quiet, quitting.

So what does quiet quitting mean to you?

What's your take on that?

I would say Lee

Well, how long have we got Carrie-Ann?

we're about 30 minutes, so if you could keep it concise.

So quiet quitting, I think sits in my little bucket of words I

hate, along with imposter syndrome.

It's another one of those buzzwords that I just don't like.

I mean, I think if I look back over my career, I've definitely had times

where I've gone, do you know what?

. I'm not gonna kill myself for this job anymore.

They don't care about me.

You know, I'm a disposable commodity, all of that kind of stuff.

So it's been around for a long while.

They've just put a, a name on it at the minute.

I, I think that, you know, what is quite quitting or what,

what are people talking about?

I think as you've described, it's that sense of people physically shown up to

work, but they've emotionally, mentally, Disengaged with work, and I get that.

But I think as leaders, and this might sound a bit harsh,

I think we expect too much.

There's too many leaders who see meeting your contractual standards as

not given enough, not being committed enough, and they create a culture of.

Well, they create a culture of guilt.

Um, if people aren't putting themselves forward, aren't working long hours,

aren't always on the email or contactable any hour of the day, then they're

labeled as not being committed enough.

They're overlooked for opportunities they're discriminated against, and I

just don't think that's on anymore.

And I think, you know, if we actually look at the situation we're in

nowadays, People have got a lot of stuff going on outside of the workplace.

, yes.

We've had the pandemic and that's obviously changed how connected people

feel to where they work and how much they want to give to an organization.

But for, for years, it's been the case of people having to juggle caring

responsibilities, whether it's family, you know, children or, or other

types of caring responsibilities.

I think you've got the issue.

Well, it's not an issue.

I think you've got the, the, the facts that, um, people are developing maybe

multiple portfolio careers so that their investment isn't just in one organization.

So I think as leaders, we are being really shortsighted and old-fashioned

if we think that our staff need to give over and above what we're

contractually paying them to give.

I think that there's an apathy as well around change.

And I know people who are tired of the same people getting the same top jobs.

The politics that are at play in the kind of leadership cardre in, in organizations

that, you know, they're just not gonna consider applying for maybe a more

senior job or, or going the extra mile because of the stuff that's playing out.

And I think as leaders, we've got a responsibility to fix it, not moan about.

Sorry,

Oh my God.

It's been a while since I've said this in an episode of How to Take the Lead,

but that was a proper soapbox moment.

I love it and I love it when it happens as well.

I love when the passion comes out.

I think from what you are saying, Lee, and for me, my, my own, uh, kind of

take on it is that actually this is all about people setting and actively

maintaining some boundaries in the

Yeah.

and it's something you'll hear me talk about a

lot, uh, in terms of boundaries.

It's something that I'm passionate about.

I'm gonna try not to get on my soapbox too much about, cuz both of

us on those soap boxes could make this for a, an extra long episode.

But, but I do talk a lot about boundaries and, and I see boundaries

as a really positive thing.

Setting boundaries in the workplace and elsewhere in life is a good thing,

and trying to actively seek to maintain those boundaries is a good thing.

Yet this term quiet quitting seems to have really negative connotations.

So what's your take on that?

completely agree.

And I think we touched on this in, in episode one about the fact that actually

the discussion is more around the, the boundaries that people are setting.

I'm completely with you on the importance of it, and it's something

that I work with, with my clients on as part of their self-management and

the impact that they make as leaders.

I think setting boundaries, and the standards that you are willing

to accept, uh, is really important.

I think when it comes specifically to quiet quitting, I think when

you look at it from a boundary setting point of view, it's.

It's healthy or not.

So for me, the difference is how engaged the staff are.

So are they still getting involved with you and your

organization, but with boundaries?

or do they really not care?

And I think as a leader, you know, as leaders or in leadership roles,

that's what we need to tap into and try and distinguish, are our staff,

our people who work for us, just being more boundaried, and setting

and sticking to those boundaries.

Or have they stopped caring and I think there's a big difference.

and I, I think that leads me on to something that I was gonna touch

on a bit later in the conversation, but I am gonna bring it in now because I

think you've, ta you've taken us there in, in what you've said, Lee, that,

that there's a bit for me around as a leader, uh, how should we be responding

if we are seeing members of our team, people in our organization, Almost as

you say, consciously deciding to quiet quit to disengage and, and really is that

masking other issues within your team or organization that you need to address

rather than this, trying to address this are they quiet quitting or not?

There's a couple of things at play.

I think there's something around leaders needing to be,

to check in with their teams.

Cause I, I think that a big part of this perception of quiet quitting is

actually people maybe feeling burnout or an exhaustion so that they're not

wanting to kind of give, give more or this perception of giving more.

So I think there's something for me around how do leaders make sure they're checking

in and responding to that element of it.

I think that there was some research that Gallup did that said only one in three

managers were engaged in the workplace.

So I do think that's something that needs to be tackled.

We, we often see or talk about this, this concept of a soggy

middle and in the organization.

What is actually being done to improve it?

And if we engage our managers more, are we using that as an

opportunity to engage their teams?

So I think that's something that, that needs to be looked at and can be done

to support the broader concept of staff feeling like they want to quiet quit.

And I think the other thing that I'm seeing as a pattern is this fear,

I suppose, that leaders have around wanting to or worried about giving

feedback that might potentially disengage people further at work and add to this

sense that people are checking out.

So they're getting worried about appraisals and end of year review.

So everyone's treading on eggshells a little bit because they think they've

got, they, you know, if they see they've got a disengaged workforce.

So I think there's something for me about leaders getting better at

having those difficult conversations.

And we've spoken before in this series about accountability and

demonstrating that you are taking action and holding people to account

to deliver what they're doing.

And I think potentially what we're seeing as a trend with, with this quiet quitting

is, is people starting to retreat because they don't want to perpetuate the issue.

And I think probably what the conclusion that we're coming to

around that part of the conversation is that actually quiet quitting is just the

terminology I think we are using for, um, colleagues, employees, whatever we

want to to call that group of people who are disengaged from the organization.

And actually what the important thing for leaders to do is to understand,

why that that disengagement is happening and to really try to get to the bottom

of that rather than being over focused on this sort of term quiet quitters

and, and potentially going, oh, well that's a thing that's happening right

now, so, I don't need to worry about it.

I think that would be probably be one of my anxieties, a as a leader myself, is

that we've got other leaders going, oh, well that is the phenomenon to quiet quit.

We just have to accept that that's what certain people are gonna do and

not deal with the underlying issues of why colleagues are disengaged

from what you're trying to achieve in your team or organisation.

So, we touched at the start of this conversation around the

Gen Z, gen Z, uh, workforce.

And I think recent conversations about quiet quitting have

definitely been more associated with that generation of workforce.

Um, but I guess I want to explore whether or not that's a fair portrayal, I think

they're being portrayed as a generation of workers who don't want to put the effort

in, who are lazy, um, who, uh, don't, like you say, don't necessarily want to

show up and, and put the hard graft in.

But I think as we've started to talk about what we are really

seeing are people perhaps.

Be more articulate and overt about the boundaries that they're putting in place.

I think my perception would be that some of that started

happening even pre pandemic.

And I know you touched on the pandemic, giving people an

opportunity to reframe their relationship with work and employment.

Um, But I think I, I've been seeing employees with lots of years experience

leaving roles, and particularly in healthcare, which is the industry

I work in as part of my day job.

People leaving that because of the experiences they've had because of

that burnout that you've talked about because of looking for those portfolio

career opportunities, particularly I've seen linked with, um, the fact that

retirement age is creeping ever higher.

And I think people are, people are thinking, I've got to work for longer.

Do, do I want this to be the only thing that I do?

And.

Yeah.

Uh, well, yes, I'd be interested to hear your, your personal

take on that for sure Lee.

And I think we also heard, in the episode we did around women leaders about the

McKinsey and lean in data around women wanting to leave the workplace they're

currently in because they want to find increased flexibility in job satisfaction.

So I, I guess my question is, are we unfairly portraying quiet

quitting as a Gen Z, gen Z thing, or, or does it go beyond that?

Undoubtedly it does go beyond that.

I think there is evidence, and again, this Gallup poll that, that came out

a few months ago, showed that employee engagement for under 35s was falling.

So there is obviously something about how engaged workforces of, of

a younger generation feel with the organization they're working for.

And that does link to that sense of how connected do they feel with

purpose, which is really important to a younger generation and organizations

aren't always great at joining the dots for people around how they

can connect to the bigger purpose.

Um, so I do think that there is undoubtedly different expectations of

different generations, and we've talked about that for, for many different

things, not just around this sense of quiet quitting, but it goes beyond

it for sure, because, you know, my personal experience I've had those

moments where I've mentally checked out and it's because something else is

more important to me at that time than going above and beyond in the workplace.

Or you do it from a point of needing to protect yourself because of where you

are working isn't helping you, might be mentally impacting you in some way.

It might be toxic, there it all sorts of triggers and you need

to protect yourself from that.

So I think that was ever, thus, I don't think that's a new phenomena.

and I definitely had that point where there were certain things that I

was just not wanting to get involved in because I didn't see the value.

I didn't think it was fulfilling the bigger picture stuff that

we, we were supposed to be doing.

I didn't like the attitudes or the politics associated with it.

All of those things were true for me in my career.

I hated the repetitiveness of some of it.

It just wasn't floating my boat.

, you know, I definitely have checked out at at points and that doesn't mean

that I've not performed and that I've not delivered and any of that kind of

stuff, but, I've got to that point where I go, I'm not gonna kill myself for this

place, because they forget about you.

You know, we've seen, we've seen how forgettable we all are,

and I hate, you know, this is a really horrid thing to say maybe.

But we've all, we all think we are indispensable and then we leave

and we're forgotten really quickly.

We are all replaceable, aren't we?

And I think that's a, a good point that you make and I know you've shared

your personal experience, um, with us a few times from different perspective.

But I think that point you made about yes, you may have checked out and yes, you may

have been taking decisions that that's not right for you and you want to move

on and do something different, but that doesn't mean that you stopped performing.

I think that's, that's quite an interesting point

that you've raised there.

Um, because I think that does link to that sense and that negative

connotation that if people have checked out, then they're not delivering.

And I think there are different levels aren't there of, of being checked in

or checked out in your organization.

And, and the point you made, um, earlier on in the conversation about how, how far

somebody's checked out is, is probably the bit that you need to explore and

potentially take action on, as a leader in terms of trying to get the best for

that person and, and the wider team.

Yeah

and I, I think there were a few bits that kind of resonated

with me when you were talking Lee.

There was a bit for me around, as we were talking earlier, you, I could see

you nodding your head around the point about we're all having to work for

longer, so we want to do things that, that bring us some level of joy and things

that we want to get involved in and feel like gives us that sense of purpose.

And I've definitely had that experience where I run my own business and I work

in a salaried role in an organization, and they're of, they've often felt like

there's been some tensions around that in terms of how that's been perceived.

And the fact that I've chosen to run my own business has sometimes been

perceived as me not being committed to the organization that I work for.

And, and actually I would really challenge that because I decided to set

up my own business at a point where I was on the cusp of checking out of the

organization I worked in for various different reasons, and starting a

business was an opportunity for me to explore where there were other options.

The surprising thing that's happened for me is actually a, along with some other

bits, so it can't take the full credit for it, but actually having that time

and space and making that, that space for me to run my own business has actually

made me more productive in my day job.

because I feel like I'm getting a sense of purpose that I perhaps wasn't always

getting in my day job through my business, which is great, but also I feel more

committed to wanting to demonstrate to my organization that I can deliver my

day job and run my business as well.

So for me, it, it, it acted in a really positive way despite potentially being

perceived a bit negatively in the first.

And I know from knowing you and your work set up, but you work compressed

hours, but you work way above and beyond your hours still because there's a

sense of feeling like you need to be showing that you are always showing up.

So yeah, it's interesting, how people perceive.

Yeah, and I think there's something though, back to the point

about boundaries, about having to balance that desire to want to prove

that you can do your day job and run a business with putting boundaries

in place to enable you to do both, but also to protect your wellbeing.

So, so I definitely think boundaries are a big part of that, feeling

engaged, but also feeling in control.

So for me, there's something about control as an aspect of this, this quiet,

quitting terminology we are using that people want to, to have more control

over different parts of their life.

I think through this conversation, we've reached a point where we're

both in agreement that that boundary setting is important, um, uh, and it's

a good thing to do in the workplace.

And perhaps some of the misconception about quiet quitters is, not quite

right cuz maybe they're people who are setting and maintaining those boundaries.

That's gonna lead me onto a question for you, Lee, which is, as a leader, how do

you demonstrate and create a culture that views boundary setting in a positive way?

I think you've got to demonstrate that you are setting and sticking to

your own boundaries, because if you are not showing that you care as a

leader, why should your teams bother to show up and follow suit really.

You are setting the example.

So I think for me it's about, as a leader, you need to get in touch with

what your red lines are, how you want to work, what's acceptable, what's not

acceptable, taking care of yourself.

All of that stuff for me, sits, sits in under the realms of boundary setting.

How you articulate that and show that to people, how you stick to

that and respect your boundaries.

But also how do you demonstrate that you are respecting the

boundaries that other people set?

Because often we look at ourselves and we don't look at or respect other people, and

it, and it's a two-way street, isn't it?

That's a really important point about how you respect other people's

boundaries and accept that people are, are wanting to set and maintain those.

I think that is really, really important piece of advice for leaders.

I'm conscious of how long we've been going in this episode and it feels like

you're moving us there naturally in terms of advice and top takeaways, Lee.

We've kind of tried to explore what we think quiet quitting is.

I think it would be safe to say we don't think it's a new thing, it's just the

latest term, um, that we're putting on perhaps groups of, of people who are

feeling disengaged, in the workplace.

or who are being really proactive about setting their boundaries.

And I think there feels like there's possibly two camps there of, of different

sorts of people, who might be perceived to be quiet quitting in the workplace.

We've had quite a robust discussion a, around the

boundary setting aspects of that.

But I guess where I'd like to take us in terms of ending on some takeaways

for people is, is what advice would you give to leaders listening who want

to support their colleagues, perhaps to have a healthier relationship and

more positive experience with work, given that it feels like some quiet

quitters, if that's what we want to call them, are, are not experiencing

that healthy, positive relationship.

I think it goes back to how are you engaging them and how

are you engaging them around the purpose of what it is that you do.

I think it's a simple, and I say, That loosely cause I know it isn't simple

, but I do think it's as simple as that.

I think that's where you need to be showing up and inspiring as a leader.

I think if there is a disconnect between the promise and the experience,

that's where you have the problem.

And we've touched on that with culture.

We've touched on it with a, with accountability and several of these

episodes where we've talked about it.

So yeah, engagement around a purpose.

I absolutely think that's brilliant advice, Lee.

And I guess I would just add that, um, I don't think we should make

assumptions about the types of people, the demographics of people in, in our

organizations who might be perceived to be quiet quitting, because I don't

think it's a Gen Z, gen Z issue.

I think there are more people who are disengaging for various different reasons.

The point about trying to understand that is, Is a really

important one as a leader for sure.

And then back to that kind of demonstrating that you can set and

respect boundaries, both for yourself and and for other people, would

definitely be my advice around creating a bit more of a healthy relationship

for people in your workplace.

I'm sure we could go on for longer with this conversation as we could have done

with every conversation we've had, but we do have to draw this series to a close the

last formal proper episode of this series as Lee said at the start, we usually have

a cheeky little something up our sleeves, don't we, just in case people miss us.

Yes.

Or even just that we can talk to each other really even

Yeah, for some reason now we seem to need to

have our, all our conversations recorded, which is very strange.

We can talk to each other outside of the podcast, but I love the conversations

that we have as part of the podcast.

So,

Is that why you've started sending me voice notes now?

Cuz you just like to do everything via recording

Today in particular, has been a voice note kind of day.

I've not had the time to, to type it out.

It's easier to do the voice notes, but I realize that I'm coming at that

probably quite far behind everyone else who's been using voice notes forever.

So you know, me finger on the pulse and all that.

On that note, I will draw this episode to a close um, Uh, say thank you to

everyone who's listened to this one and any of the other episodes in this series.

There will be more to come.

This isn't the last that you've heard from us.

There's more series afoot and we would definitely love to hear from you if

you've got suggestions and ideas about topics you would like us to cover.

So a huge thank you and until the next series or the

Yeah, seasons, greetings, festive wishes, and all of that as well.