Welcome to Season 1, episode 5 of Breaking with Tradition, Catalyst’s podcast that explores trends and ideas that will impact the future of the global workplace. This episode is called Broadening Gender in Workplace DEI.

Catalyst has been accelerating progress for women for over 60 years, and our future vision is “workplaces that work for women.” To many women, this vision is a rallying cry because the status quo of workplaces is that they don’t work for women. But where do men fit into the equation in this future workplace? And what about trans and gender non-conforming (TGNC) employees?

Join Erin Souza-Rezendes as she sits down with Dani Gomez-Ortega, Senior Manager, Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at McCain Foods, and Mark Greene, a writer, inclusion coach, and host of Remaking Manhood. Together, they tackle the complex subject of gender and how we talk about it in the workplace.

First, we start with the basics: what does “gender equity” mean in today’s world? And how is that reflected in the workplace—or not? Before long, we dive into “Man Box Culture,” how women can be allies to men, and the importance of vulnerability in conversations around gender.

Grab a drink and sit down with our panel to hear their inspiring perspectives on this topic and how we can shift workplace cultures so that nobody is left behind.

Hosts and guest

Erin Souza-Rezendes, VP, Global Communications, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

Dani Gomez-Ortega is a global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion leader with a passion for empowering others to create more inclusive spaces. Dani has championed inclusion across various sectors for 10 years. Currently, Dani works as a global DEI leader at McCain Foods, where she collaborates with teams across the world to drive inclusion.

Most recently, Dani was featured in the book Global Changemakers for a Feminist Future by Dr. Gayle Kimball and has won multiple awards for her work, including a Bill 7 Award. Dani’s work and commitment to inclusion are shaped by her lived experience as a Venezuelan Latinx, immigrant, transgender woman with an invisible disability.

LinkedIn

Mark Greene is an author and activist who speaks, consults, and coaches on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Mark works with organizations and individuals to overcome the challenges created by retrogressive workplace cultures. Mark’s client list includes General Mills, Société Générale, Sephora, AOL, Bank of America, Catalyst, and The Better Man Conference.

Mark is the author of The Little #MeToo Book for Men and Remaking Manhood, and co-author, along with Dr. Saliha Bava, of The Relational Book for Parenting and The Relational Workplace. Mark is co-host of Remaking Manhood, the Healthy Masculinity Podcast, available on all major streaming platforms.

Website | LinkedIn

In this episode

• 1:24 | What does gender equity mean to you? Spoiler alert: it goes beyond equity for women alone.
• 5:04 | The “evolution” of gender norms—or not. And have they been reflected in the workplace?
• 8:56 | Workplaces still aren’t safe for everyone. Where can we look for solutions? What is men’s role?
• 12:30 | Women can be allies to men, too People of all genders have work to do on how we define masculinity and femininity.
• 18:34 | We need gender equity inside and outside the workplace. How can we make work more connected and joyful?
• 20:57 | Closing thoughts (both practical and inspiring). Questions companies can ask to create more gender-inclusive workplaces and personal anecdotes from our panelists about how they show up.

Favorite moments

• 1:45 | Dani: When we talk about gender equity, it can’t just be about women. It’s also about men, but also about all the other genders that exist in the world.
• 6:00 | Mark: It’s become evident that if we don’t make space for conversations among men about men, men will continue to fall prey to the single primary purpose of “Man Box Culture,” which is to keep us silent and keep us conforming without ever checking in with each other about where did we learn these ideas about dominant space masculinity?
• 7:54 | Dani: I think people are slowly but surely starting to realize that [gender norms and gender roles] are made up, right? And they’re not necessarily benefiting us in the way that they might have benefited us in some magical time in the past.
• 11:44 | Mark: What we need men to hear and do now is that you cannot remain silent any longer because your own mental health, the mental health of your coworkers, of the people in your life, the well-being and future hope of everyone requires that we push through decades of conditioning we’ve had to remain silent by the bullying men around us.
• 13:20 | Mark: When we start to define male strength as including the full spectrum of human capacities, which we all have, which include things like caregiving, empathy, listening with curiosity… And we invite women at the same time to bring those aspects that are traditionally referred to as masculine, which is strength, leadership, toughness…When everyone is invited to bring their full human capacities, we start to change things.
• 14:39 | Dani: As women, we need to recognize that men have really high rates of mental health challenges. Especially when we talk about suicide rates. And so, it’s up to us to create space for men where they can be vulnerable and ask for help. Unless we create the space, that space is not going to be created.
• 15:55 | Mark: Vulnerability means, ultimately, to reveal. And when we reveal, we tap into an incredible resource because our resiliency, our success in the workplace, our capacity to live richer, fuller lives, is co-created with other people.
• 19:16 | Mark: The question becomes for us as human beings, why can’t we have as rich and meaningful of relationships in the workplace as we have in any other of our communities, in our churches, in our families?
• 20:28 | Dani: In the workplace, some people need to be able to talk about their lives, talk about their family, talk about their same-sex partners. Other people need privacy to succeed. It’s about recognizing individuality and giving everyone the ability to come to work the way that makes them feel happiest, even if that means being private about some things.
• 21:06 | Dani: We need to ask more questions. We first need to ask, “Who’s here?” Who’s in our company? It’s not just women—it’s men and non-binary people, Two-Spirit people, etc. Then we need to ask, how are they feeling? We need to segment that data to make sure we capture how different genders are experiencing the workplace. After that, we need to do research around where the gaps are and see what strategies we can enact to ensure that all genders are feeling included.
• 22:28 | Dani: I try to break with tradition by taking up space, by speaking up, and trying to be as visible as possible as a trans person to ensure that being trans in the workplace is no longer a thing that needs to be highlighted.
• 23.43 | Mark: Each and every one of us must step outside of our comfort zone and show the kind of courage that a lot of folks are publicly displaying right now in a genuinely unsafe world.

Mentioned on the Pod

• Equimundo: The Man Box – A Study on Being a Young Man in the US, UK, and Mexico
• Harvard University Press: Deep Secrets – Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection
• Penguin Random House: Rebels with a Cause – Reimagining Boys, Ourselves, and Our Culture
• The Cigna Group: TThe Loneliness Epidemic Persists: A Post-Pandemic Look at the State of Loneliness among U.S. Adults

Research you can use

• Masculine Anxiety and Interrupting Sexism at Work
• Interrupting Sexism at Work: What Drives Men to Respond Directly or Do Nothing?
• How Organizations Can Encourage Men to Interrupt Sexism
• Engaging Men: The Journey Toward Equity
• Engaging Men: Barriers and Gender Norms
• Flip the Script: Transgender in the Workplace (Supporter Only)
• Move Beyond Performative Allyship for Your 2SLGBTQ+ Employees
• 5 Ways to Create a Gender-Inclusive Workplace
• What is Gender? A Guide to Understand Gender Identity (Supporter Only)