Shownotes
Clint Smith, the founder of Thunder Ranch and a U.S. Marine Corps combat veteran with two infantry tours in Vietnam and a long law enforcement career, joins State of the Second hosts John and Kaylee for an episode built around one blunt idea: a pistol is a tool of convenience, and a rifle is what ends a fight. Smith walks through how his thinking changed across more than 50 years, from the near-zero pistol instruction he got in the Marine Corps to his early run-ins with PPC, the Practical Pistol Course he says was anything but practical. He explains why the rifle came back into law enforcement after the April 1986 Miami FBI shooting, and why most gunfights happen at the width or length of a car, not at 50 yards.
The heart of the conversation is competency and personal responsibility. Smith argues that owning a gun does not make a person competent, and that practice and mindset matter more than the specific handgun in your holster. He reframes the military's shoot, move, and communicate as communicate first, then move to cover, then shoot only if you have to, because every bullet fired has a lawyer attached to it and a jury that decides whether you acted responsibly. He covers backing up to create distance, the legal value of a defensive posture on camera, where to aim, and why a fight is fought to win rather than to a draw. He also recommends a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor and a white light for home defense, and corrects the common belief that rifle rounds pass through more interior walls than pistol rounds.
Smith gets personal on the mental side: rehearsing scenarios, training to shoot with either hand, staying vigilant even when a larger partner is present, and the reality that carrying a gun is comforting rather than comfortable. He closes on safety, calling most negligent discharges incompetence rather than accidents, and on history, naming his top firearms and arguing that public education should be grounded more in history. The episode includes sponsor reads for Ammo Squared, Right to Bear, and Patriot Mobile, and ends with a reminder to register for GOALS, GOA's 50th anniversary convention, August 1st and 2nd in Des Moines, Iowa.
Questions this episode answers
What did Clint Smith change his mind about in training over 50 years?
Smith says his thinking shifted from the near-zero pistol instruction he got in the Marine Corps and his early experience with PPC, the Practical Pistol Course, toward the view that most gunfights happen close in, at the width or length of a car rather than at 50 yards.
Why does Clint Smith call a pistol a tool of convenience and the rifle the tool that ends a fight?
He treats the handgun as something you carry because it is easy to have on you, not because it is the most effective option. To actually end a fight, Smith says you use a rifle, which is why the long gun returned to law enforcement after the April 1986 Miami FBI shooting.
What does Smith recommend for home defense, and why a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor?
Smith recommends a short-barreled rifle paired with a suppressor and a white light for defending the home, favoring the rifle's effectiveness over a handgun in a close-quarters confrontation.
Do rifle rounds go through more walls in a house than pistol rounds?
Smith corrects the common belief that rifle rounds pass through more interior walls than pistol rounds, pushing back on the assumption that a rifle is automatically the bigger over-penetration risk indoors.
Why does Smith say possession of a firearm does not equal competency?
Smith argues that owning a gun does not make a person competent. Practice and mindset matter more than the specific handgun you carry, and real competency takes deliberate work and money.
How should a gun owner build the mindset to actually use a firearm defensively?
He reframes the military's shoot, move, and communicate as communicate first, then move to cover, then shoot only if you have to, because every bullet fired carries legal consequences and a jury that decides whether you acted responsibly.
How should you train the mental side of self-defense, not just the shooting?
Smith stresses rehearsing scenarios, training to shoot with either hand, and staying vigilant even when a larger partner is present, treating a carried gun as something comforting rather than comfortable.
What are Clint Smith's top historical firearms?
Smith closes the episode by naming his top firearms and arguing that public education should be grounded more in history, though the specific models are covered in the discussion itself rather than summarized here.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Meet Clint Smith, founder of Thunder Ranch
- 00:21 — What he changed his mind on about training
- 01:54 — Why train inside seven yards
- 02:38 — Communicate, move, shoot only if you have to
- 04:18 — The long gun, the pistol, and the 1986 Miami FBI shooting
- 05:43 — Pistols are convenience, rifles end fights
- 09:51 — Best firearm for home defense
- 13:00 — Possession is not competency
- 17:25 — Verbalize, create distance, fight to win
- 21:42 — Flipping the switch to defend yourself
- 27:34 — Training the mental side and rehearsing scenarios
- 34:11 — Carrying when you are small, and around kids
- 39:08 — From the soapbox: be safe with firearms
- 43:00 — Top historical firearms and learning history
About the guest
Clint Smith is the founder of Thunder Ranch. He is a U.S. Marine Corps combat veteran who joined in 1967, served from 1967 to 1970, and did two infantry tours in Vietnam. He is also a law enforcement veteran whose career included time on a sheriff's department. He started his Urban Rifle class in 1983, ran a school in Texas for five-day classes for 11 years, and later taught three-day classes in Oregon for two or three years. He is married to Heidi and, at the time of recording, was 76 years old and living in Wyoming. He appeared in a 2001 60 Minutes segment and previously wrote a column for American Handgunner.
Key quotes
"Pistols are tools of convenience. Pistols are not tools of effectiveness. If you want to end a fight, you shoot the son of a gun with a rifle." — Clint Smith
"Handguns put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people." — Clint Smith
"possession of a firearm does not equate to competency." — Clint Smith
"If you want competency, it costs money." — Clint Smith
"they weren't supposed to be comfortable, they're supposed to be comforting." — Clint Smith
"You can do everything in life. New husband, new wife, new car, new washer, new dryer. Okay, everything. But you can never pull a bullet back." — Clint Smith
"Know all your students. Trust none of them." — Clint Smith
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the Second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kaylee.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today our guest is a U.S. marine Corps veteran, combat veteran, law enforcement officer veteran, the founder of Thunder Ranch.
Speaker B:I mean, this guy doesn't need any introductions.
Speaker B:We have Clint Smith with us.
Speaker B:Thank you for joining us today, sir.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:I appreciate you all asking us to be there.
Speaker B:Let's just go ahead.
Speaker B:What's something you believed in early on about training that you've completely changed your mind on as.
Speaker B:As time has come on?
Speaker C:You have to remember that doing it as long as I've done, which is like 50 plus years before a couple of you were born.
Speaker C:There were certain things, like, for example, I grew up with basically no training in the Marine Corps, and that's not uncommon, like in that era.
Speaker C: So I joined in: Speaker C:So there was basically that timeframe where you wanted to fill the hole.
Speaker C:And I'm getting to your answer, which is like, they didn't really teach you very much about a pistol shoot.
Speaker C:Seven rounds.
Speaker C:And then so it was mostly a familiarization, firing from that thing.
Speaker C:Then I went into the world of law enforcement, which at that time the big money was in what was called ppc, Practical Pistol Course.
Speaker C:Well, it was anything but practical.
Speaker C:Taught basically no movement to cover.
Speaker C:Didn't teach you about the idea of like, trajectory, which everybody in America who owns a gun could learn something from trajectory.
Speaker C:Like, just because you shot the target doesn't mean that's where the bullet stops.
Speaker C:And so I think that that was some of my first eye openers.
Speaker C:I'll long story short, because I know we're dealing with time, but I went to a law enforcement firearms instructors thing at Camp Perry in Ohio, and they stood up in front and said, okay, this is where most police officers are killed at seven yards and they're killed by this and killed by that.
Speaker C:And so, like at the end of the banter, I raised my hand and I said, if we know we're dying inside seven yards, why are we here?
Speaker C:Why wouldn't we teach officers to extend the distance from the target?
Speaker C:I know we have to close the ground to affect the rest, et cetera.
Speaker C:And I was politely told by a couple people, just sit down and shut up.
Speaker C:And so that was my first eye opener at that.
Speaker C:The idea of what you have 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
Speaker C:So what you want to do is you want to teach people to not move if you have cover, but if you don't have cover.
Speaker C:The reason you go to cover is to look for better cover.
Speaker C:So it's a tradition of not moving.
Speaker C:And we already know that triad for survival for us, you, I, all of us homeowners, everybody, law enforcement, military is for us.
Speaker C:The military says shoot, move and communicate.
Speaker C:Historically, over the years, I didn't change it because I'm not that good, but I did reverse it.
Speaker C:We need to communicate.
Speaker C:So stop, get out of my house, move or take advantage of going to cover or using protective cover.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:And there's a difference between cover and consumer, which you know.
Speaker C:And then shoot only if I have to because every bullet I fire has a lawyer attached to it, which I give credit to my wife Heidi to.
Speaker C:A long time ago, 30 years ago, we go like, hey, you know, every time you pull the trigger, there's a lawyer at the end of that thing.
Speaker C:I mean you can talk about all the stuff you want and all your rights and everything.
Speaker C:That's all really notable.
Speaker C:But it all comes down to what the jury sees.
Speaker C:As far as your response, did you act responsibly and so on.
Speaker C:So I know it was longer than you wanted, but I gave you the answer.
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Speaker B:I kind of want to touch on.
Speaker B:So when you were started your training and things like that, the, the long gun was the primary weapon.
Speaker B:And as more has gone on over the last few years with the, the expanding of concealed carry, that the pistol seems to be coming this more primary weapon and this more training focused thing.
Speaker B:How have you seen the evolution of just education on, on pistol techniques from when you started to to now or we're looking at kind of that shift?
Speaker C:I think so.
Speaker C: You know, in: Speaker C:And the first thing I did when we got in law enforcement is they took rifles away from us, okay, because they wanted to Demilitarize.
Speaker C:Much like you're hearing now about we don't want guys to have their face covered.
Speaker C:We don't want this, we don't want that.
Speaker C:And I was kind of going, the bad guys got their face covered.
Speaker C:So, like, you know, what the hell?
Speaker C:Okay, so the.
Speaker C: back in for us until April of: Speaker C:Because Most gunfights aren't 50 yards.
Speaker C:That's the problem with PPC.
Speaker C:Most gunfights are the width of the car, the length of the car, two cars, if they're smart, because I'll use my car for cover and.
Speaker C:Or whatever I'm using in the house.
Speaker C:Pistols are tools of convenience.
Speaker C:Pistols are not tools of effectiveness.
Speaker C:If you want to end a fight, you shoot the son of a gun with a rifle.
Speaker C:And that wasn't the word I was thinking of, but you get the point.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:I have a little thing that I teach in school.
Speaker C:Handguns put holes in people.
Speaker C:Rifles put holes through people.
Speaker C:Shotgun, right range, right load, okay?
Speaker C:We'll take a chunk of meat off and throw it on the floor.
Speaker C:And again, we are talking about guns.
Speaker C:So people go, we are very violent.
Speaker C:I'm not violent.
Speaker C:I'm actually a really nice guy.
Speaker C:You know, I might have a therapist that says I have harsh delivery, but that's my biggest problem.
Speaker C:I'm not going to bull people around.
Speaker C:And I don't know if I can say that word, but it's the truth, okay?
Speaker C:I'm not going to bull people around when I have men class because they incrementally give me small amounts of time to work on them to save their lives.
Speaker C:You know, like I've told people to their face, you need to lose £100.
Speaker C:I like you.
Speaker C:You're very attractive, but you're too fat and you're going to die because you won't be able.
Speaker C:And it doesn't matter about you.
Speaker C:Well, my family.
Speaker C:Your family's not relevant.
Speaker C:Your partner is not relevant.
Speaker C:You cannot save those people if you can't save yourself.
Speaker C:You have to be confident enough.
Speaker C:And I thought a lot about this because I knew I was going to talk to you.
Speaker C:And people always go, well, you know, the dev group and the Delta and the distance and that.
Speaker C:You know why they're competent, right?
Speaker C:Because you and I pay for them to be competent every time I write a tax check.
Speaker C:I write bonds and bullets in the memo section.
Speaker C:I want competent people to defend us.
Speaker C:It's the same thing with law enforcement.
Speaker C:If you don't like law enforcement because they did something in a shooting that you don't like.
Speaker C:Let me ask you a question.
Speaker C:How are you manning or girling up?
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:To, you know, promoting proper training for those people?
Speaker C:I mean, well, I don't want to spend the money, okay.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:It's expensive.
Speaker C:If you want competency, it costs money.
Speaker C:And so, like, same thing.
Speaker C:Someone from, you know, the.
Speaker C:And going back to the pistol question, too.
Speaker C:So, you know, I didn't forget it.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:It's not the best tool.
Speaker C:It's a tool of convenience.
Speaker C:Can it win a fight?
Speaker C:Yes, it often does.
Speaker C:But I think you guys are researchers.
Speaker C:You're smart people.
Speaker C:Probably 80% of people shot by handguns survive, even when shot multiple times.
Speaker C:Now, you and I don't actually care, okay?
Speaker C:The girl doesn't care whether or not they survive.
Speaker C:You only care that they stopped doing what they were doing if they were attacking you or your family.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker C:So I go, people are like, well, you know, what handgun do you carry?
Speaker C:We'll get to that.
Speaker C:But the point of it is, it's not relevant.
Speaker C:Mine is the best that I think based on personal experience, not somebody else talking to me about, well, you know, this is what you need.
Speaker C:You need a gun with a bucket of bullets in it, and along with that would go a bucket of lawyers.
Speaker C:Because if you're not hitting stuff, that means you're missing.
Speaker C:If you're missing, that means Aaron rounds.
Speaker C:So hopefully that answered your question.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker B:No, that answers my question.
Speaker B:Listen, I learned a lot in just that little bit.
Speaker B:But I was going to ask you about the line that you say in your class because that has become this viral thing where pistols put holes in people, rifles put, you know.
Speaker B:How do you feel to have that message pushed?
Speaker B:Almost.
Speaker B:I almost see it daily.
Speaker B:That message that you have put out
Speaker C:about that, I think it's a pretty good idea.
Speaker C:So, you know, I started a class, and I admit that in the beginning it wasn't.
Speaker C:People looked at me like I had three heads, but it was called Urban rifle.
Speaker C: And I started that class in: Speaker C:And the nomenclature, or layman's terms for that is how to fight with a rifle inside what most people consider to be a handgun range.
Speaker C:Now, you, we, I, us know I can't carry a rifle grocery shopping.
Speaker C:So then I need the next best tool, which is a handgun.
Speaker C:But if someone asked me, okay, great, and this would have a caveat to it.
Speaker C:Based on where you live, who you are, what your experience is.
Speaker C:If someone asked me, what would you think would be a really good firearm for home defense?
Speaker C:I would go, okay, this is what I think.
Speaker C:I think a short barreled rifle with a suppressor.
Speaker C:That way I can communicate with my family because I'm not blowing everyone's ears up.
Speaker C:I can probably stop a fight with one, maybe two rifle rounds.
Speaker C:Much better than five or six rounds of nine millimeter.
Speaker C:Okay, that means more errant rounds on lawyers, right?
Speaker C:Okay, so like somewhere in there is that balance that we're looking for.
Speaker C:Is it for everyone?
Speaker C:Not necessarily.
Speaker C:You know, you go, well, the infirmed, I always love that people go, the unfirmed, well, like an M1 carbine really sucks.
Speaker C:And I kind of go, oh, you mean like all the guys that carried it ashore at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, okay, Normandy on D day.
Speaker C: grain bullet at: Speaker C:And it's a reasonably good fight stopper.
Speaker C:And I go, well, it doesn't have a big magazine.
Speaker C:I don't need a big magazine, okay?
Speaker C:I need to have something that's reliable that I understand.
Speaker C:So you go, okay, give me the optimum carbine.
Speaker C:Well, I will put a white light on it because I don't want to shoot something in the dark and all, you know, you read it.
Speaker C:You know, that's your job.
Speaker C:All the people that have been shot, you know, family members, I heard a noise in the night.
Speaker C:I don't shoot noises in the night.
Speaker C:If you're that scared, you should as they scared.
Speaker C:As they say in Texas, if I was that a scared head, I would leave lights on in my house.
Speaker C:Well, what if a power Audi, that's why you have the white light on the rifle.
Speaker C:I want to know what it is on.
Speaker C:Presto, trigger on.
Speaker C:And I'll be really honest with you.
Speaker C:I would rather get shot again, maybe even die, than shoot one of my family members.
Speaker C:Because I got excited, okay?
Speaker C:And it's like people go like, well, you know, the police got excited.
Speaker C:We're not paying them to be excited.
Speaker C:We're paying them to be confident.
Speaker C:And so why would I expect anything else from you as a gun owner if you want to own a gun?
Speaker C:Okay, well, the second Amendment, I know, I read it.
Speaker C:Well, the Constitution, I read that too.
Speaker C:And the Federalist Papers, okay?
Speaker C:And I read all that.
Speaker C:I never saw the word Stupid in there one time.
Speaker C:So if you want to own a firearm, you need to be responsible.
Speaker C:You need to practice.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:Because possession of a firearm does not equate to competency.
Speaker C:A lot of people have the wrong mindset on that.
Speaker C:They go, I got a gun, I'm dangerous.
Speaker C:Yes, I would agree.
Speaker C:You are dangerous.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Do you have some idea of what it's going to do?
Speaker C:How many walls will it go through in your house?
Speaker C:You know, most people think that rifles go go through your house.
Speaker C:Rifle rounds will go through less walls inside your house than a pistol because of the velocity that the bullet breaks up and stops faster.
Speaker C:Handguns.
Speaker C:Okay, round 215 grain ball, nine millimeter.
Speaker C:I've done it.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:You shoot it through sheetrock, it'll go through more walls.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C: Than a: Speaker C:So, you know, and we're talking about.
Speaker C:And I know I'm not supposed to, but I can with you guys because I've had people go, oh, no, you need to tone it down.
Speaker C:You know, we need to not like, not get people excited.
Speaker C:Why?
Speaker C:Because I call a firearm a weapon.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker C:And it's got a primary purpose.
Speaker C:Its purpose was to protect us when we came to this country or got firearms, which why made them and.
Speaker C:Or, you know, generate food so we didn't starve to death.
Speaker C:That's what they're for.
Speaker C:All this other stuff like Idpa, ipsic.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:It's all great.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:I think it's awesome.
Speaker C:Okay, Yankee cup, awesome.
Speaker C:Sign me up.
Speaker C:Two tours.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:But that's not what guns are for.
Speaker C:That's what we use them for.
Speaker C:Okay, sure.
Speaker C:Shall we say, entertain ourselves.
Speaker C:But apparently the world isn't enamored with that idea because we're only allowed to shoot.22 rifles.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:At the biathlon, what happened to a.308 or.30 06 or a real rifle or an 8 millimeter?
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So they downplay it so it becomes skiing with a Ruger.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So sorry.
Speaker B:No, I love.
Speaker B:That is a great way to put it.
Speaker A:Obviously, you've been an instructor for a long time.
Speaker A:Everybody in the firearms space, I think, looks up to you.
Speaker A:What are the lessons that you've learned as an instructor that you feel like are maybe missing from the everyday class that people might just be going to because their local shop has an intro class?
Speaker C:That's a really good question.
Speaker C:And I've seen a lot of changes over the timeframe.
Speaker C:Like we both Hit on.
Speaker C:I've been in it, maybe some people tell me too long.
Speaker C:But I think that this idea, still a personal responsibility, that idea of competency, I think that's really, really a point to hit on with people.
Speaker C:You know, it isn't enough just to have the gun.
Speaker C:You know, shooting is not hard.
Speaker C:We see it every day.
Speaker C:A guy can go on a grade school and shoot 19 little kids, okay?
Speaker C:And, you know, shooting is not hard, but the responsibility of being responsible.
Speaker C:But if you think about that one, now we're talking outside the realm of guns because people don't want to be responsible for their own actions.
Speaker C:It's like, you know, I saw a note on yours about the, you know, protection from liability for the gun manufacturers.
Speaker C:Well, first of all, you know, I, I don't know why I'd be interested in what Mexico says about our gun companies.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:They sided with the Germans in World War I.
Speaker C:They had Japanese in, in Mexico war too.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:They're not our friends.
Speaker C:Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker C:And if it goes well, you know, we have good, well, I'm not saying we shouldn't have good relations.
Speaker C:We have a big border with them.
Speaker C:But, you know, we don't always get along with Canada either.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:So a lot of people are annoyed by Americans.
Speaker C:You realize how annoying we are to people.
Speaker C:We just do what we want and yet we pay for everybody around the world.
Speaker C:And I'm not going to get into that, but I'm not interested in what their lawsuits are.
Speaker C:You know, I mean, there's a lot of stuff if we want to get into that, but I don't know if that answered it exactly or not.
Speaker C:So you have to tell me because like sometimes, like my wife says, you got on a bender there, buddy.
Speaker C:Slow down.
Speaker A:No, I mean, I think that, you know, you're, you know, you definitely answered it.
Speaker A:I think one of the additional questions I have is from the student perspective.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, what do you look for when you are teaching a class where you go, okay, they've got it, or they're ready to take this to the next level or, you know, we can go further in challenging them?
Speaker C:Okay, I don't think that.
Speaker C:Okay, so most of the time, historically, on some rare occasions, when I ran the school In Texas for 11 years, it was a five day class.
Speaker C:So you could tell about Wednesday or Thursday.
Speaker C:The problem with it is most people can't hold up to intensive training, not ask time, okay, where we all sit around, tell war stories.
Speaker C:But I'm talking about going out, working on the range Most people can hold up for about three days, and then they start to be overwhelmed by it.
Speaker C:I think in the fourth day, you start to see it.
Speaker C:When we did Oregon, So we did 22 or three years in Oregon, we do three day classes, and that was about the limit of where you can push people.
Speaker C:And you got what about a, you know, a marine operator?
Speaker C:No, he's 22 years old.
Speaker C:You know, I'm 76.
Speaker C:I can't even keep up with the guy.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:But I think that when you get people to understand that it isn't just about shooting, it's also about the mindset that goes with it.
Speaker C:Because ultimately, what we're doing is teaching people to fight.
Speaker C:And think about it.
Speaker C:Both of you, when you grew up, your parents told you not to fight.
Speaker C:If you have children, you tell them not to fight.
Speaker C:Don't go to school and fight.
Speaker C:I don't want you to be in a fight.
Speaker C:We'll get in trouble.
Speaker C:See, we're worried about trouble.
Speaker C:That's not what other countries are teaching their children.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:So I'm enthusiastic, and I like where I'm at.
Speaker C:If my students are verbally, shall we say almost aggressively addressing the target.
Speaker C:Stop.
Speaker C:Go away.
Speaker C:Leave me alone.
Speaker C:My personal preference is that they're backing up while they do that.
Speaker C:That creates distance.
Speaker C:We won't do anything today that won't be on an iPhone or a security camera.
Speaker C:Passing.
Speaker C:Backing up is always passive in nature.
Speaker C:So when the jury looks at the video, they'll see that I was trying to break contact on this.
Speaker C:I don't want to shoot this person.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:So if I can get them to verbalize, I can get them to open the ground.
Speaker C:And then if they have to shoot, I need them to shoot responsibly.
Speaker C:And then I need them to think.
Speaker C:What do you mean by that, Clint?
Speaker C:If they're backing down the hallway, the first place the muzzle is going to cover if it comes up is the groin.
Speaker C:I would shoot him in the crotch first.
Speaker C:Why?
Speaker C:Heaviest bone structure in the body.
Speaker C:Is it a fight stopping hit?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Is it a fight winning hit?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:But none of the other ones are either with a handgun.
Speaker C:But if I get them to start on the pelvis and then go to the center.
Speaker C:We never shot the center, so, you know, because it was good.
Speaker C:We shot it because it was big.
Speaker C:If we hit them in the heart, they can still function for a long time.
Speaker C:Look at all the people who've been shot by people they've already shot.
Speaker C:So another adage I have for my students is, you can Be killed by somebody you've already killed who isn't dead yet.
Speaker C:They can lay on the floor while they're bleeding out and shoot you.
Speaker C:And all you have to do is research it, okay, on social media and see all the people who are shot after they've shot somebody.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:To go, why shot?
Speaker C:I won.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:So it's this mindset that I'm after, I think.
Speaker C:This mental mindset of being firm.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:And so no one misunderstands this.
Speaker C:I teach people to engage and when the target goes on the ground, I track them to the ground.
Speaker C:On occasion I tell my student to shoot them again in the body and.
Speaker C:Or I have them shoot them in the head.
Speaker C:And people go, oh, I did not say shoot them when they were no longer a threat.
Speaker C:But this is starting.
Speaker C:People go like, bang, bang.
Speaker C:They fell out of my sight picture.
Speaker C:I've read that before.
Speaker C:You know where people go, bang bang, fella, sight picture.
Speaker C:You got him.
Speaker C:Unless he shoots you now laying on the floor.
Speaker C:So I'm ultimately in this to win.
Speaker C:That's what it is.
Speaker C:It's a fight, okay?
Speaker C:You know, it's like a chess game.
Speaker C:We're not playing this for a draw, we're doing this for a win.
Speaker C:You know, I mean, and the longer it goes on, the more likely my family can be hurt.
Speaker C:So again, that's why I press you so much on competency.
Speaker C:And it's not easy when you get old, your hands don't work, stuff doesn't work, your eyes don't work.
Speaker C:You know, when you turn 40, which you aren't, okay, then you'll be going, where'd they go?
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But it happens, okay?
Speaker C:So hopefully I gave you a better answer that time.
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Speaker B:There's two mindsets that people have to get over in, in my mind.
Speaker B:And the first mindset is to purchase your a firearm to say that you're going to take this personal responsibility of defending yourself in your hand.
Speaker B:Then there's the mindset of actually using the firearm in a defensive standpoint.
Speaker B:What kind of advice would you get people give people to flip that switch from, oh, I'm just buying it because I'm going to leave it behind the closet door and use it when I decide I want to use it to taking that.
Speaker B:Taking the responsibility, getting the training and all that.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:You want to know what I tell them?
Speaker C:You ready for this?
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker C:I think of something that really pisses you off.
Speaker C:You got to think about somebody punching your wife in the mouth while we're on the street.
Speaker C:You got to think about somebody kicking your dog.
Speaker C:You have to think about someone trying to slit your kid's throat.
Speaker C:I mean, if you.
Speaker C:There was a great one on video not long ago.
Speaker C:A guy goes.
Speaker C:A cop goes in the east coast, and the.
Speaker C:The guy standing there is holding a knife to a little boy's throat.
Speaker C:Turns out it was his brother, okay?
Speaker C:The cops shot him in the face, okay?
Speaker C:And everybody goes, oh, my God, he shot him in the face and killed him.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So I shot one and I saved one.
Speaker C:But that mindset is that switch.
Speaker C:You have to be.
Speaker C:You have to practice that.
Speaker C:I practice thinking about fighting as much as I practice shooting the gun, you know, I mean, you're on the ground or you're on your stomach on the ground, which is also kind of clearly defined how I might carry the gun.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:Either.
Speaker C:Have you ever been in a fight since grade school, like in the playoff, Hair pulling, whatever.
Speaker C:I'm just asking.
Speaker C:I'm not being a.
Speaker C:Okay, but the deal with it is, if you've never been in a fight, okay, then the deal with it, people kind of go like.
Speaker C:Well, it's just like.
Speaker C:I go, no, you're not thinking about this, right?
Speaker C:You have to be.
Speaker C:I can't punch him once and let it stop.
Speaker C:Have to hit it until they're no longer bothering me, you know, or it ends.
Speaker C:Their.
Speaker C:Their contact.
Speaker C:And, you know, that's the reason I say.
Speaker C:About tracking them to the ground and following them.
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:I absolutely do not advocate that people shoot people who are on the ground who are no longer a threat.
Speaker C:And we've seen guys go to jail over that, like, because they're, you know, on their iPhone, running their gums as they walk up and shoot the guy in the face.
Speaker C:But then again, look at how and what happens to most cops who are shot on traffic stops.
Speaker C:And if the guy doesn't walk up and the last thing he does is shoot him in the head or the face while they're laying on the ground, okay?
Speaker C:I mean, those people are fighting.
Speaker C:But the other issue is so, you know, okay.
Speaker C:And it's hard for people to choke Down.
Speaker C:The people that you are fighting are different than you.
Speaker C:Both of you are very attractive.
Speaker C:You have good jobs.
Speaker C:You have families.
Speaker C:You're working very hard to do the right thing.
Speaker C:You're promoting an ideal, okay, and promoting an ideology.
Speaker C:That's correct.
Speaker C:The people that we're going to fight, folks, do not have any rules.
Speaker C:None.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:They'll run over you with a car if they think they can get away with it.
Speaker C:And that'll be okay if I wind up being crippled, but if I shoot them, then that winds up being evil.
Speaker C:Okay, by whose interpretation, though?
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:So, like, you know, there's.
Speaker C:We as human beings have a hard time, you know, if everybody could take a class in psychology and learn how crazy people are, you know, I mean, you know, when people.
Speaker C:It is one of the redeeming values of being a cop and being into infantry tours, okay?
Speaker C:You see stuff that maybe you weren't supposed to see, like, as a human, stuff that you would want your children to see.
Speaker C:But at the same time, that's the mindset that we have to go at if we're thinking about winning this.
Speaker C:You know, this is.
Speaker C:This is not like, okay, tag, I'll hit you and then you hit me.
Speaker C:No, I'm going to hit you, and then I'm going to hit you again, and then I'm going to hit you again if I can.
Speaker C:But it's not personal.
Speaker C:That's the thing that people.
Speaker C:I always laugh when people go like, well, isn't that really dirty, cruel, meaning heartless?
Speaker C: you guys started this, but in: Speaker C:You may have seen it.
Speaker C:And I said, so there's no misunderstanding.
Speaker C:There are people who need to be shot.
Speaker C:And this thing aired, of course, right between super bowl and Survivor, you know, on the commercial.
Speaker C:And, you know, a lot of people go, oh, my God.
Speaker C:But you'd be stunned at the thousands of comments that were positive that we got from people, okay, that go like, yeah, finally somebody said that.
Speaker C:And there are people who need to be shot, and they won't have it any other way.
Speaker C:Do either one of us, the three of us, want to do that?
Speaker C:No, I don't even want to fill out the paperwork, more or less pull the trigger, okay?
Speaker C:Because when I do, here's a thought that they don't think of.
Speaker C:You have to live this with this all your life.
Speaker C: or: Speaker C:And it could be from a series of things.
Speaker C:It isn't just that.
Speaker C:It could be, you know, like they always talk about PT and that's nothing new.
Speaker C:It's only new on the war on terror.
Speaker C:You know, when we came back from Vietnam, guys were screwed up in their head.
Speaker C:You know, stuff they saw.
Speaker C:You know, you see people burning from napalm that can't set right in your head.
Speaker C:I don't know what other people believe, but in my mind's eye, you know, I have to put that on the shelf with Jesus.
Speaker C:I saw it, I can't unsee it.
Speaker C:And so you get it.
Speaker C:Okay, so hopefully.
Speaker B:Oh, go ahead.
Speaker C:No, you're fine.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:You mentioned the going through scenarios in your head.
Speaker B:There's two types of training that I think of.
Speaker B:There's the training where you're actually firing the gun and the training that you have to go and in your mindset to go in and go, this is how I'm going to have.
Speaker B:And run through the scenarios in your mind.
Speaker B:You know, how, how can one not only do the, the physical part of training, which is actually shooting the gun, and then the mental side, how do you recommend they handle that mental side of training?
Speaker C:I think the mental side would be maybe take a class just even if a class.
Speaker C:And I don't need a college degree in it, but like in just psychology, like at the local community college and just see the kind of people that are out there that you might deal with.
Speaker C:I think the other thing is, is that I think you need to play the game in your head.
Speaker C:When I go to a restaurant, I always find the fastest place out.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:In other words, there's an old military adage that said all plans are good till they make contact.
Speaker C:Okay, so once the fight starts and you like.
Speaker C:I think Mike Tyson even varied that.
Speaker C:He said everybody's got a plan till they get punched.
Speaker C:Okay, so by Mike Tyson, that would be something.
Speaker C:Okay, so like, I think the, the idea is to play the game in your head.
Speaker C:What if this happened?
Speaker C:What would I do?
Speaker C:In other words, that's why I would want all of you if you asked me, I'd want you to be able to shoot the gun left handed too.
Speaker C:Why?
Speaker C:Because of like the Flagstaff police officer on the traffic stop took the first round through the right elbow, then had to draw the gun left handed as he got shot again while he was landed in the middle of Interstate 40.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:He drew the gun left handed and shot his gun six times because there were revolvers at the car as it went away.
Speaker C:So you have to think that he didn't just draw that gun left handed that day, you know what I mean?
Speaker C:So people go like, I'm gonna shoot two handed, unless you only got one because now I'm moving one of my kids out of the way.
Speaker C:So the psychology can be like, okay, like, all of you should have a fire extinguisher, for example, besides your bed.
Speaker C:Statistically, you're more likely to burn alive than you ever be killed in a home invasion.
Speaker C:There's a great book, you guys, if you've never read them or saw him, especially in your line of work, it's called On Killing by Dave Grossman.
Speaker C:And it isn't about killing people.
Speaker C:It's about the psychology of killing people.
Speaker C:Then he has a second book called On Combat.
Speaker C:And he's a colonel in the army.
Speaker C:And I mean, this guy had access to everybody.
Speaker C:Afghanistan and Iraq, all that.
Speaker C:So in other words, it isn't.
Speaker C:I always let people go.
Speaker C:Like in the military.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter, okay?
Speaker C:When you're in a fight, it doesn't matter what your uniform is.
Speaker C:You can have Levi's on in a black shirt, okay?
Speaker C:Or you can be with a helmet and body armor.
Speaker C:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker C:If someone attacks you in the parking lot, they're not worried about, you know, why they attack, because they thought they could.
Speaker C:That's the reason.
Speaker C:When you have a state, that or a location where you have concealed carry, there's always a question in their mind, always a question.
Speaker C:If I do this guy, you know, it's just like, people don't not break in your house because they're afraid of the police.
Speaker C:When the police arrest them, they got to let them go.
Speaker C:They don't break in your house because they think they're going to get their shot off by you, okay, Homeowners.
Speaker C:So that's the reason that, you know, guns are a good thing.
Speaker C:But, you know, I think the idea of like, for example, you know, I know people think it's strange, especially at my advanced age, but if I pick a gun up and I'm going to put it on, I check the round on the chamber, I check the magazine and the gun, and I do it every single time, okay?
Speaker C:And so like, I put the gun on, you know, I mean, why did I put the gun on?
Speaker C:Well, I think I might have to defend myself then.
Speaker C:Did you check it well, it was loaded yesterday.
Speaker C:Yesterday is not your answer.
Speaker C:It's just preparation.
Speaker C:People go, I don't want to live that life.
Speaker C:You know, you.
Speaker C:Neither one of you may want to broadcast like you are now on podcasts with crazy people like me the rest of your lives.
Speaker C:You may want to do something where we're looking at rainbows, zebras, and big bunnies.
Speaker C:I'm the same guy, you know, I love people.
Speaker C:You need to throw all guns in a well.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'll throw mine in when you do.
Speaker C:Okay, but they're not going to.
Speaker C:You know, it's just, like, laws.
Speaker C:You and I know, okay, that we have laws, and we also know that people break them.
Speaker C:Okay, so then what do we do?
Speaker C:Well, it's okay, you know, the next time you come into court, I don't know.
Speaker C:Sending the right message.
Speaker C:You know, I heard a really good thing once when I was on the sheriff's department.
Speaker C:It was a guy laying in a hospital with a couple gunshot wounds.
Speaker C:And when we walked in to interview the guy, the guy goes like, well, all I did was rob a bank.
Speaker C:That was his commentary.
Speaker C:That was his social commentary.
Speaker C:Like, all I did was rob a bank.
Speaker C:Well, robbing banks in Indiana is against the law, so you could get shot doing that.
Speaker C:Know, so it's.
Speaker C:The mindset is to get exactly to it, you have to think it.
Speaker C:Where did I park my car?
Speaker C:Did I look at my car before I walked up to it and look underneath?
Speaker C:Because a lot of ladies are attacked by people reaching out from underneath the car and grabbing their feet.
Speaker C:Did I lift the trunk or try to.
Speaker C:Did I look in the backseat before I got in?
Speaker C:People go, well, I'm not doing that.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's too much worry.
Speaker C:I go, do you wear a seatbelt?
Speaker C:Yeah, because they make me.
Speaker C:Yeah, but first time you get a chance, you won't.
Speaker C:And then you'll hit a tree, you know, so it's.
Speaker C:There's just oddities to it, okay?
Speaker C:And not everybody probably, thank goodness, thinks about it like me, but I always anticipate, okay, well, what.
Speaker C:What can go wrong?
Speaker C:You know, I mean, like, if something goes wrong, what can I do?
Speaker C:You know, I'm always looking for an out.
Speaker C:And I don't mean necessarily like a getaway, but if you pull up to a car and you can't see the tires on their car, you can't get around them.
Speaker C:So now if you're at an intersection of four lanes of traffic and somebody runs over to your car and tries to bust the window okay.
Speaker C:By throwing the ceramic top off a spark plug at it and shattering it and reach inside to grab your purse.
Speaker C:You see what I'm getting at?
Speaker C:So just think about things differently than other people.
Speaker C:And you go, well, I don't want to think like that.
Speaker C:Then don't.
Speaker C:But then you can't whine when something bad happens to you.
Speaker C:No whining.
Speaker A:I think it's super important.
Speaker A:And you have to adjust, like you said, for everyday life.
Speaker A:How you carry when you are by yourself is very different than when you have kids around, which is very different.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is very different than, you know, I'll be honest.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:The thing that I have to think about as an individual is I'm a very small person.
Speaker A:And so when my husband's around and he's six three and I'm five foot, I tend to stop thinking because, oh, he's got it.
Speaker A:But it's important, especially now that we have multiple kids, that I stay vigilant as well.
Speaker A:And it's just training your mind to stay on top of things and to not default into easy mode is something that, you know, we all kind of have to do.
Speaker C:Agree.
Speaker A:I'll out myself on, you know, the struggles that I have as an individual.
Speaker C:So here's a thought.
Speaker C:My personal opinion.
Speaker C:Women are more dangerous than men.
Speaker C:If you can.
Speaker C:There's a book called Shoot the Women First.
Speaker C:Your ability to generate life exponentially makes you more dangerous.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Than men.
Speaker C:Men can kill each other.
Speaker C:And they also, you know, like all the other stuff they can do.
Speaker C:Drive fast cars and all the other stuff.
Speaker C:But we won't get into.
Speaker C:But you.
Speaker C:You get it.
Speaker C:But I, I, I think that you have the mindset for it.
Speaker C:Like, just, like, if you talk about it, think about before you had children.
Speaker C:Now think about it.
Speaker C:If someone tried to hurt one of your children.
Speaker A:Oh, 100.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And you go, well, my size.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:So, you know the great thing about being 5 4?
Speaker C:No one's going to shoot at you.
Speaker C:They're going to shoot at your husband because he's bigger.
Speaker C:He's a bigger target.
Speaker C:Everyone will shoot at him.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:They won't shoot at you as much.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And people laugh at me when I say that.
Speaker C:They go, no, I, you can ask my wife.
Speaker C:I tell everybody I meet this small.
Speaker C:I go, like, that's awesome.
Speaker C:You're small.
Speaker C:And they'll go like, hey, you know, what do you mean?
Speaker C:You making fun of me?
Speaker C:Everybody's made fun of.
Speaker C:I go, no, you're a smaller target.
Speaker C:Hang around with big people.
Speaker C:If A fight ever starts, I'll shoot it down.
Speaker C:But, and I, so you know, I actually do acknowledge exactly what you're saying.
Speaker C:Even I'm not a woman, okay?
Speaker C:Or you know, whatever.
Speaker C:But I, I acknowledge it.
Speaker C:But there's that thing where people go like, well women can't.
Speaker C:And I go, yes they can.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:They've done magnificent things in the military.
Speaker C:Driving, you know, warthogs and being like winning silver stars.
Speaker C:You know, the first woman you know in the war on turb won a civil star since World War II.
Speaker C:You know, like jumping into a trench and shooting a crap out of a bunch of people.
Speaker C:They're completely, totally capable and I don't know now can they lift as much weight, you know, can they run it?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:But then again, you know, I have a Jack Russell that has short legs and I have a Jack Russell that has long legs and the long legged one runs fast, faster, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker C:But the little one is a bulldog.
Speaker C:I mean it was like, it's like messing with a concrete block, you know, so like I get it.
Speaker C:And here's the big thing, there's no comfortable way to carry a gun.
Speaker C:That's the first thing that people need to remember.
Speaker C:You're not going to carry a gun and be comfortable.
Speaker C:And they go, well, I'm thinking about carrying a gunboat.
Speaker C:What do you think I should do?
Speaker C:I think you should get a half of a brick and you should take it everywhere you go with everything you do from the bathroom to changing the kids diapers to going to the grocery store.
Speaker C:Well, that damn brick keeps getting in the way.
Speaker C:That's the gun.
Speaker C:The difference is the gun's a better tool than a brick in a fight.
Speaker C:You know, so they weren't supposed to be comfortable, they're supposed to be comforting.
Speaker C:That's why I want the most effective tool that I can get.
Speaker C:You know, when it comes time to do that.
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Speaker B:So we're at the point of our show where we do our from the soapbox.
Speaker B:This is where we get super spicy, even though we've been spicy.
Speaker B:And I love this episode all together.
Speaker B:But this is where we talk about our biggest frustrations, gripes with the atf, politicians, et cetera.
Speaker B:Do you have a spicy topic that you want to touch on?
Speaker C:You know, people always go, safety rules.
Speaker C:We need one.
Speaker C:All guns are always loaded.
Speaker C:I think that's the biggest thing with me is I keep seeing people, you know, like, I moved here to Wyoming and as soon as I moved here, someone walked up and told me the story about their grandson that got shot in the butt by the guy behind him hunting with a.36 in the butt cheek.
Speaker C:And you know, I think if someone said something, hey, just do one thing.
Speaker C:And I go, I need people to be safe with guns.
Speaker C:You know, like when we were talking about students, you go, like, what about teaching?
Speaker C:And I go, I have a Clint thing.
Speaker C:Know all your students.
Speaker C:Trust none of them.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:It's nothing personal, but that's the way I teach.
Speaker C:I love you, you're very attractive.
Speaker C:But if I had $5 for a gun that's been pointed to me in the last 50 years, okay, and those are by people who like me, you know, the years before that were people who do not like me.
Speaker C:I don't think we can ever.
Speaker C:You, I, us especially, you know, the state of the second.
Speaker C:Everything.
Speaker C:Okay, hey, just as a thought, okay?
Speaker C:Be safe.
Speaker C:Please be safe.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:You can do everything in life.
Speaker C:New husband, new wife, new car, new washer, new dryer.
Speaker C:Okay, everything.
Speaker C:But you can never pull a bullet back.
Speaker C:And so, like, I think, you know, people go, like, what would you like to promote?
Speaker C:I would like for people to be more safe with firearms.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:You know, like me.
Speaker C:I don't go to gun shows.
Speaker C:They go, well, why not?
Speaker C:Because click, clack, click, click, click, clack, click, click, click.
Speaker C:In the parking lot, in the building.
Speaker C:Oh, don't worry, they're not loaded.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Look at all the gun shows that have had negligent, which they call, you know, it's an accident.
Speaker C:No, an accident's when you're old like me and you think you're going to pass gas and you actually poop yourself.
Speaker C:That's an accident, okay?
Speaker C:We're talking about incompetence here, you know, truly incompetent.
Speaker C:People assume, you know, out of you and me, right?
Speaker C:So the deal with it is I would go, like, name one thing I go, I'd like for people, if I give everybody one blessing, would be a blessing of safety.
Speaker C:Think about what the muzzle is, okay?
Speaker C:You know, some of the worst gun handling I've ever seen is when I dealt with military people.
Speaker C:But then again, I don't have a Blackhawk coming to take me out of out when I get shot, you know, I mean, now I.
Speaker C:You know, and it's just, I think, yeah, if I do, people, like, I used to write a column I used to write in the old days for American handgun or that when they still had paper magazines.
Speaker C:And people always go like, hey, what's your column this month?
Speaker C:And I go, safety.
Speaker C:And then the next month I supposed to write.
Speaker C:And they go, what's your column this month?
Speaker C:And I go, safety.
Speaker C:And they go, we can't write the same thing all the time.
Speaker C:And they go, yes, I can look at how many accidents between this month and last month.
Speaker C:You call them an accident, but I call them something else.
Speaker C:But you get it, okay?
Speaker C:I mean, it's a mechanical device.
Speaker C:It's, you know, but it has no will of its own.
Speaker C:It's got to have somebody that's sort of a loose behind the wheel.
Speaker C:And then because, and I'm telling you right up front, my personal opinion, people who are closest to each other are the ones that are most dangerous to each other.
Speaker C:Like, I would never point a gun at my wife.
Speaker C:Have I?
Speaker C:Probably in passing, yes.
Speaker C:Has she passing?
Speaker C:Yes, but we always correct each other and like, if I'm carrying a gun in the car, I get in the car, she gets in the car, and I go, gun.
Speaker C:Right hip.
Speaker C:Magazine, left hip.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I also carry a tourniquet that people go, like, that's a bit overboard.
Speaker C:Unless you're bleeding, you know?
Speaker C:You know, it's.
Speaker C:And people go like, well, I don't enjoy guns when I'm around you, because you're just too.
Speaker C:Well, I don't tell people what to do.
Speaker C:I just don't go around them.
Speaker C:Like, you know, we, we.
Speaker C:Like I said, I don't go to gun shows.
Speaker C:You know, most dangerous place in the world is a public range.
Speaker C:Think about it.
Speaker C:Everybody's in a parking lot handling guns, messing around.
Speaker C:Well, nothing ever happens here.
Speaker C:Bang.
Speaker C:Oh, shit.
Speaker C:Bob got shot.
Speaker C:Oops.
Speaker C:Must have been an Accident.
Speaker C:So you know what I'm saying?
Speaker C:It's just way.
Speaker B:I think so now, I worked at a public range.
Speaker B:I know the feeling.
Speaker B:So I have to ask you this.
Speaker B:You are a firearms historian?
Speaker B:Collector.
Speaker B:What are your top five historical firearms of all time?
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C: The: Speaker C:Got it.
Speaker C:The next one, I think is the transition.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Two things again, people, when you ask me about what people should learn about history.
Speaker C:Because if you learn history, then you learn what.
Speaker C:What was important.
Speaker C:So there's a thing called the Federman massacre and the wagon box fight and the transition between that was the muzzle loading gun at the Federman massacre where all 88 of them died.
Speaker C:And then the next transition the following year was the wagon box fight, which was the Amera Indians or whatever they want indigenous people, whatever is being called this week.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:They were got their butts shot off because that was the first, their first introduction to the cartridge case gun in the trapdoor Springfield.
Speaker C:So there's that transition.
Speaker C:The Henry we already talked about.
Speaker C:And I'm counting the last thing as two guns, not one.
Speaker C:And I think if someone go pick a gun, I would go, 30, 40.
Speaker C:Craig, why?
Speaker C:First 31st smokeless powder, first magazine fed, first bolt gun.
Speaker C:I mean, it was the space shuttle compared to the trapdoor rifle.
Speaker C:I mean it was a quantum leap.
Speaker C:What's it, a perfect gun.
Speaker C:No one ever said that.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I mean, 8 millimeter Mauser is probably a really, you know, as far as the gun that was made, that's been made worldwide.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I look at it right Now, a Model 29.
Speaker C:And the only reason is that is because that started to get people's eyes open into the idea of like using the gun and fighting back, even though, you know, they didn't like Dirty Harry.
Speaker C:So I see that gun and another gun in my mind's eye would be the P38 because that was the one that the arch nemesis used.
Speaker C:And then it has a connotation to it because you go, oh, that P38.
Speaker C:That is pretty cool, you know.
Speaker C:Well, when they brought the Model 39 Smith Wesson out, everybody thought that that was the first double action auto pistol.
Speaker C:And I kind of go, you need to know history.
Speaker C:Because it was a P38 and it was actually something else before that.
Speaker C:But so there's four, five, or maybe one more extra one.
Speaker B:No, I love it.
Speaker B:There's one gun on that you didn't add to your list that I always add to everybody's list because I'm just a huge support fanboy.
Speaker B:Of that.
Speaker B:And that's the high power.
Speaker C:Yeah, Browning high power, excellent gun.
Speaker C:You know, I mean the same thing.
Speaker C:And I don't know how they are for you.
Speaker C:I love the gun and it was like a high cap gun before people thought about high caps.
Speaker C:Now no one can open their mouth about a gun without it being plastic and high cap.
Speaker C:But it was, it was really the first really high cap gun.
Speaker C:Me personally, they bite the crap out of my hand on the web because I hold up so high on the gun.
Speaker C:But yeah, I had them, owned them.
Speaker C:I've even owned ones that I'd like to have back today.
Speaker C:You know, like one of the reasona everybody owns a.
Speaker C:Has a gun.
Speaker C:That would be a good question.
Speaker C:What gun did you get rid of that you'd like to have back?
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But that's always one of people go like, oh yeah, I wish I still had that gun.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But yeah, those are guns that are pretty notable.
Speaker C:And you know, there's.
Speaker C:It's hard, you know, you could.
Speaker C:A lot of people go, the M60 machine gun from Vietnam, which was basically a copy of all the bad things from the German MG 34.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So like.
Speaker C:But history is the thing that we're missing.
Speaker C:I think I read something and when you sent me the handout and it said if I could go back in history and change something, that was one of your things that they gave me, I think I would go back and change public education in America to be based more on history.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker C:Because people go, this is a democracy.
Speaker C:No, it's not.
Speaker C:It's a constitutional republic.
Speaker C:You read the damn thing.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So like we talk about stuff, but we.
Speaker C:There's a lot of it is hollow.
Speaker C:And I've always said that this planet is covered with the graves of people from this country who paid for them.
Speaker C:Like giving France back twice, you know, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker C:And it.
Speaker C:We may not last forever, but as a nation, if you think about that, I always kind of laugh and go, the American taxpayer has paid for everything once worldwide.
Speaker C:I mean, if we didn't pay everybody else's bills, we'd have some money, you know, here or there.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But history I think would be if I could go back and change, it would make people more aware of history would be.
Speaker C:And people go, well, that's living in the past.
Speaker C:Oh, I understand AI and all that.
Speaker C:Or maybe I do.
Speaker C:We try to get the computer hooked up, but go ahead.
Speaker C:Yeah, so your turn, girl.
Speaker C:I know you got another one there.
Speaker A:Well, actually, we are getting this sign to wrap up.
Speaker A:So I'm going to tell you a little bit about our gift for our guests, which is sponsored for season three by Palmetto State Armory.
Speaker A:And so after this, you're going to be receiving an email with all of the information about what you're getting from our supporters over at psa.
Speaker C:I very much appreciate you.
Speaker C:Thank you for having us on.
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