What does it take to scale a company in one of the most competitive industries in technology?

In this episode of the Breakout CEO Podcast, Jeff Holman sits down with Michael Chaput, CEO of Endsight, to explore the leadership transformation that helped him grow a managed services company to more than $35 million in revenue and 140 employees. Michael shares the lessons he learned after his first company went bankrupt and how those experiences shaped the leadership philosophy that ultimately fueled Endsight’s growth.

The conversation dives deep into the realities of the managed services industry, why most firms never scale beyond a handful of employees, and the critical shift leaders must make from survival mode to strategic leadership. Michael also explains how evolving company values, aligning teams around a shared vision, and creating meaningful work environments can unlock both performance and long-term growth.

Along the way, he introduces powerful frameworks—from the Predator vs. Prey mindset in leadership to the Becker Rudder principle, which explains how small internal shifts can transform an entire organization.

This episode is packed with insights for founders, executives, and leaders who want to build companies that scale while maintaining strong culture and purpose.

Key Takeaways

1. Failure can be the foundation of success. Michael’s first company ended in bankruptcy, but the lessons from that experience helped shape Endsight’s long-term growth.
2. The managed services industry is extremely fragmented. In most cities there are hundreds or even thousands of small competitors, making differentiation and scale difficult.
3. Scaling requires letting go. Founders must eventually delegate even the parts of the business they enjoy most in order to grow the organization.
4. Core values must evolve with the business. Early company values can unintentionally create the wrong culture if they aren’t continually reevaluated.
5. Alignment beats perfect strategy. A team united around a shared vision will outperform a group pursuing multiple competing strategies.
6. Purpose drives performance. Employees perform best when they find meaning and play in their work, not just economic incentives.
7. Leadership starts with the inner game. The most powerful changes leaders can make often begin with their own habits, mindset, and philosophy.

Michael Chaput is the CEO of Endsight, a leading managed IT services provider serving hundreds of businesses. Under his leadership, the company has grown to more than 140 employees and $35M in annual revenue in a highly competitive industry.

Michael is a longtime entrepreneur and leadership thinker who focuses on building organizations rooted in strong values, team alignment, and continuous improvement. Through his work and writing, he explores how leaders can create meaningful work environments while achieving sustained business success.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Intro: Inner Game vs Outer Game

00:17 Podcast Intro & Guest Introduction (Mike Chaput)

01:00 Early Career & First Business Failure

02:08 Lessons from Bankruptcy & Resilience

02:12 What Insight Does Today (Managed IT Services)

03:05 Industry Landscape: Small vs Large Players

04:46 Why It’s Rare to Scale in This Industry

07:52 How Mike Got Into Managed Services

10:54 Early Growth & First Competitive Advantage

12:45 Scaling Challenges & Customer Retention

14:06 Growth Ceilings & Leadership Evolution

16:39 Biggest Leadership Learning Moments

18:35 When Core Values Were Wrong

22:00 Redefining Company Values (Respect vs Humor)

26:26 Setting Vision: Thinking Backwards vs Big Goals

28:46 Why Big Goals Create Energy

29:31 The Turning Point: Why Change Was Necessary

30:49 Prey vs Predator Mindset in Leadership

33:09 Sponsor Break + Podcast Context

33:33 Vision & Values as Team Alignment Tools

36:00 Why Alignment Beats “Perfect Strategy”

38:04 Building Team Trust & Leadership Foundations

40:39 How to Actually Create Core Values

44:17 Why Most Company Values Are Weak

45:17 Learning Through Books & Experience

47:02 Diagnosing Problems Through Values

49:06 How Goals Shape Attention & Behavior

51:18 Capital Strategy: Growth vs Exit Decisions

53:00 Future Direction: AI & Business Transformation

Resources Mentioned

1. Unreasonable Hospitality — Will Guidara
2. The E-Myth Revisited — Michael Gerber
3. Built to Last — Jim Collins & Jerry Porras
4. Lean / Toyota Production System principles
5. SAVERS productivity framework

If you focus on your inner game,

the outer game solves itself.

2

If you want people to reach their economic

potential, well,

3

the first thing you got to do is to

get them to stop thinking about economics.

4

If your goal is to stay

the same, there's no vision.

5

You're not really leading anywhere where

you're leading people to what be the same.

6

Welcome back, everybody, to the breakout

CEO podcast.

7

I'm your host, Jeff Holeman.

8

I'm here with Mike Chaput.

9

Mike, welcome to the show.

10

Thank you Jeff. Pleasure to be here.

11

Yeah.

12

It's so good to have you.

13

Mike, you are the CEO of insight.

14

You've been doing that for a while.

15

It's a managed service

provider, right? And,

16

Well, I want to ask now,

because we were just talking on

17

the icebreaker questions earlier about,

family stuff you've been, doing.

18

I have to do the math

that you've been doing, and,

19

insight

for about as long as you've been married.

20

Now like it?

They're competing, aren't they?

21

Not quite so.

22

So the the the rough outline is,

23

I actually had a company that

24

I was the CEO of before insight

that was called PXE networks.

25

That was four and a half years,

and I ended up going bankrupt.

26

So insight was started in 2004.

27

My company, the first company

28

that I did,

which was an IT systems integrator,

29

that we ran from,

30

And I was married in 2002.

31

So, you know,

you can kind of put the pieces together

32

there, but I, I was

I was a partner, not married with my wife.

33

You know, we were, in a serious

relationship since, like, what was it?

34

Probably 98, I think was when we started.

35

Okay. To date. Seriously.

36

So that's fantastic.

37

I've been married supercedes

all of the business stuff,

38

but the marriage

kind of intersects in there.

39

I mean, she's she's still around. She's.

40

And she's been through, I'm sure,

the good and the bad.

41

You know, you mentioned a, failed business

or a bankruptcy.

42

That's that's a tough time.

43

And she's still, you know,

so that's the good, the bad.

44

That's the bankruptcy.

45

That's the ugly. Yeah.

46

Well,

you're not the only one to go through it.

47

So we'll talk today and maybe, maybe hear

some of your thoughts about,

48

what you've learned along the way.

49

But, as we get into this, give,

give the audience a little flavor

50

about where insight is today,

what you've you know,

51

what you're running, what you're managing,

and what it looks like.

52

So insights in the

IT managed services space.

53

So if anybody knows

doesn't know about that

54

it's a super highly competitive space.

55

So I think there are maybe

a thousand different companies

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that do what we do in every major

urban area.

57

You know, like in the Bay area, it's

one of our areas.

58

There might be,

you know, a thousand different options.

59

Most of them are incredibly small.

60

You know, there's a lot of five men

in my shop, tons of ten

61

men in LA shop and

and a handful of 20 people or less shop.

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It's it's dominated by small people.

63

You can

you can see this and there's, you know, at

64

one point in time, one of the major

software companies went public.

65

And so they shared their data

in a public report.

66

You could just see this is like

67

really weird curve where it's just like,

everybody's really small.

68

In the last five years, the private equity

people have come into the space.

69

And so now what you have

is this really strange?

70

Dynamic where you have tons

and tons of really small companies

71

and a handful of really large

national companies, which

72

are really kind of, acquisitions of,

you know, they're

73

just basically a bunch of the small ones

kind of compiled up into one.

74

Yeah.

75

And say, this is quite rare.

76

We're not we're not totally unique,

but we're probably there.

77

Maybe if I, you know, I'm pretty.

78

I've been in the industry

for more than 20 years, and,

79

but there's maybe like 20 or 30 of us,

80

so we're 140 employees.

81

Which is not big for a normal company,

but for an independently owned managed

82

services company, we're one of the largest

in the in the nation.

83

So, that's really strange,

but it's hard to grow in this space

84

because, again, there's no

competitive barriers to entry in it.

85

It's, unregulated.

86

There's no capital barrier.

87

So anybody can enter it.

88

That makes it very difficult to scale.

89

And so, we're about 35 million

90

in total revenues, 400 customers.

91

And, so, yeah,

92

it's unique to be able to have

and we own our own capital table.

93

So it's basically my business partner

and I, my co-founder and I pretty much we,

94

we own the whole company

between the two of us.

95

So that's the

96

a little bit of a skeleton story on that.

97

You've been bootstrapping since,

since before bootstrapping

98

was in in style, out of style

and coming back in style now.

99

Yeah, exactly.

100

So, like, bell bottom

jeans, you know, it's coming exact.

101

Exactly. Back in style again?

102

Yes. Well. That's fantastic. So.

103

So why is it so rare in the industry

that that your size of business exists?

104

Is it just too easy

for people to split off once they feel

105

like they can do what they, you know,

what the company they work for is doing?

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Or is it because the acquisitions

have been sucking up

107

people,

you know, past this point of operation?

108

Like what? What makes it so unique?

109

So, you know, I think it's I think it's

110

Michael Gerber who wrote the book,

about the entrepreneur seizures.

111

Did you ever read

that book is a part of MF?

112

I don't remember the phrase.

That's it. That's okay. Yeah.

113

So that when I read that, it was like,

oh yeah, that's that's our industry.

114

So it's basically a bunch of technicians,

115

you know, who one day decided that

they needed to run their own companies

116

and have these people

with technical skills

117

who are the founder CEOs

of these companies, but they they don't

118

actually have all the disciplines

necessary to run a great business.

119

They don't understand finance, marketing,

sales, operations, management.

120

They basically know technology.

121

And so, and

122

and candidly, I, you know,

I don't want to insult anyone.

123

Sometimes they don't even know that

very well.

124

And, yeah.

125

And so and a lot of them

don't want to know.

126

They don't necessarily want to spend

their time on the on running the business.

127

Right. That's not what they've done

that they're familiar with.

128

I think the, the legal industry

that I'm in.

129

Lawyers are a lot the same way.

130

You know you become a legal expert,

but you're expected someday to be

131

you know, do business development

if you're going to become a partner

132

or whatever,

if you start your own law firm.

133

But until then, you get you get to just do

the work, be the technical expert.

134

So there's so

there's even a problem on that dimension.

135

So there's literally no regulatory

barrier.

136

There's no legal bar,

there's no law school.

137

So I'd like to do what we do

is just complete utter wild West.

138

There's no code.

139

You know, if you think about like,

everything else, like,

140

you know,

if somebody is going to set up a firewall,

141

they there's

142

nobody's checking to make sure

they're certified on that technology.

143

Yeah.

144

There's there's no code

145

or somebody that comes in and inspects

that is properly done.

146

It's just total wild West

and the consumer is

147

a bad proxy for quality.

148

So what that means is that they choose on

price way too often, which means that the

149

the lowest, the low cost leaders

who are doing poor quality don't just die

150

like you know, you'd expect.

151

Well,

if there were if capitalism were working,

152

then the poor quality

people would just go out of business.

153

But the it's very, very difficult.

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And even when things go wrong,

the consumer doesn't understand why.

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So, you know, it's it's just it's a,

156

it's a gnarly place to, to compete

on, on a lot of dimensions.

157

And so to do it well and to do it right

and to build a brand

158

and to build a reputation

and to scale customers

159

and to scale employees

and all that is, it's a

160

it's a it's an incredibly difficult market

with which to do it.

161

And, and so that's

why so few people have done it well.

162

So let's go back to 2004 then.

163

I mean,

164

what was your story to get into if there's

there's not really a barrier to entry?

165

And I think we

166

might be talking about barriers

to entry later on in your story too.

167

But but if there's not a barrier to entry,

what kind of tell me

168

what was what prompted

you to go into this industry?

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Was it

something you'd been working in or was it.

170

Yeah. So opportunity

171

the there's a crazy lead up

172

which I don't want to consume

the whole podcast on, but I when I was 24,

173

I took an SBA loan and I bought a company

174

with a partner, the same partner,

by the way, that I run and site with now.

175

And that was a technology integrator.

176

So the kind of the

the idea, the revenue model was you would,

177

take other people's technology,

I think Lotus Notes, for example.

178

Then you would deploy it or integrate it

into the customer's business.

179

So it was

180

the other name for

these companies were value added reseller.

181

So you had to sell the technology

and implement the technology

182

and integrated in the into the business.

183

And the for a bunch of structural reasons,

it didn't survive.

184

But we were we learned a lot about it

and we learned a lot about sales.

185

So when the

when the company didn't survive,

186

you know, we were kind of left

without work and anything to do.

187

But we kind of knew it

and we kind of had technology

188

vendor relationships and we kind of knew

the Bay area marketplace.

189

We were

we are members of EO San Francisco.

190

So we had kind of a pretty decent business

social network with which to kind of

191

scrounge up customers.

192

And we had the failed companies carcass,

which were

193

which had left some unmet demands to that

we might be able

194

to figure out if they still needed help

on certain demands.

195

And so we figured out how to

fashion a business together.

196

It was

197

super meager, you know,

it was like five of us and,

198

and we were basically just doing work

199

for free,

you know, was what it what it turned out,

200

we were doing at that point in time, but,

very shortly after I met,

201

I met a guy, out of Philadelphia

202

who was just an incredibly early pioneer

in this.

203

It managed services space.

204

And, I met him at, kind of an industry

kind of pure function.

205

And, we actually shared

206

financials, and I was just like,

what is this?

207

You know, like, how are you doing this?

208

So he was ahead of you

on the financial curve.

209

Everything. Yeah.

He had all this recurring revenue.

210

And I was just like, what's going on here?

211

So he, I, I begged him to let me come

212

and do a site visit at his office,

just outside of Philly.

213

And my business partner,

I flew there and we did a tour,

214

and we just completely decided

to, like, burn the ships on the classic

215

IT consulting business,

which was just kind of paying our bills

216

and transform the business into the IT

managed services space.

217

And for a minute,

it wasn't a high competitive business.

218

You know, there wasn't

219

there wasn't a lot of companies like this

who were offering this model.

220

So from like 2005, like 2009,

we were doing things different enough

221

where, the story was differentiating

in and of itself.

222

And then we started collecting customers

and we started growing a nice little,

223

little business.

224

And we and we

and we did a lot of the early learning.

225

And then, you know, so, so

by the time everybody entered that market,

226

we were just a little bit better,

you know, we had been doing it longer.

227

We knew the tools better.

228

We had we had a brand,

we had some recurring revenue.

229

And then

we just built, kind of built the business,

230

you know, from there.

231

But, yeah, that's

kind of how it got started.

232

How big were you guys

when when the industry started to really

233

develop, when people started coming

in, maybe in larger masses.

234

So by 2008, 2009, we were we

we had already grown the business.

235

I want to say maybe somewhere in, in the

like the 6 to 8

236

million and annual revenues,

almost like it was.

237

It was all recurring.

238

I mean, it wasn't all recurring.

239

So you had these recurring contracts,

but all of our project revenue came from

240

the recurring service base is in a real,

kind of predictable mathematical way.

241

We knew we were going to get 20%

hardware and software attachment.

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We make 20 points on that.

243

We knew we were going to get 25%

attachment on professional services.

244

And we,

245

you know, we can make a

246

50 or 60% labor, a lot of gross margin

on the professional services attachment.

247

We could math it all out.

248

And then the whole business came about

not churning the base

249

and finding new customers to to add

250

on, which sounds simple, but,

it's actually quite challenging

251

because the the sales started

to get really competitive.

252

It was hard to differentiate.

253

There was a lot of people coming in for,

low prices

254

and, and you're going to lose

customers for, let's say,

255

reasons that you can't control.

256

They sell or,

you know, they have their own

257

financial issues and reasons

you can't control.

258

I mean, it's it's

259

you have people who make mistakes

and, and, and

260

and you make

and you make legitimate mistakes

261

and the customer gets frustrated

and leaves.

262

And so, you know, you have to sort out

your operations and constantly improve

263

that while growing and accommodating and

bringing on new people and training them.

264

So, you know, it's

just a typical business mess.

265

And you got to organize it all and, and,

and then to go to do that,

266

you know, from five or 6 million

to 8 million to 10 million to 12 million

267

to 15 to 16, all the way to 35 million is,

you know, it's a it's a grind.

268

And, you got to

be good at a lot of things.

269

If you if you want to

270

just kind of keep moving the,

the ball forward

271

and mostly you have to be great

at creating customer value.

272

And you have to also be great

at making it valuable for the employee

273

to want to want to work with you

because you need the best people.

274

And if you get the best people,

you can create a lot of customer value.

275

And if you can keep people motivated

and keep customers happy, you can

276

you can accomplish a lot.

277

I want to dig into the the aspects

of creating value for the customers

278

and the and the employees that I think

that's an area we should talk about.

279

But before we get to that,

280

as you look back, you know,

I once had a, an employer

281

when I was an intern coming out of

engineering school, I worked at this firm

282

where we designed, you know, power

and lighting for buildings and places.

283

And I talked to the owner frequently

because it was a small firm.

284

And he said, you know, Jeff, it was really

easy to grow from, from 1 to 15 people.

285

And it was really pretty easy to grow

from 25 on.

286

But 15 to 20, man,

we started and restarted it

287

and it like kicked our butts

trying to grow from 15 to 20 people.

288

Did you have some some times in there

when you're like, man,

289

it was so easy here.

290

What what's keeping us

from growing in this stage?

291

Did that happen to you 100%?

292

I couldn't tell you

the exact number of people

293

were where ceilings were hit,

but there's there's definitely,

294

Yeah,

295

kind of like ceiling moments

where you kind of get things organized

296

for, for, for,

let's say a certain volume of, of business

297

and then to make it to the next volume

requires

298

changing your thinking,

your philosophy, your identity.

299

It requires taking risk,

letting certain things go.

300

You know, there was,

there's a famous quote where it's like,

301

and I don't remember the numbers, but

it's like to go from 0 to 50 employees.

302

You have to be willing to delegate

all the stuff.

303

You don't like,

but to go to like 50 to 100,

304

you have to start delegating the stuff

you like.

305

Oh, and, you know, that's like, you know,

306

that was true for me because I,

307

it wasn't hard for me to delegate

the stuff I don't like, you know?

308

But then what I was,

309

I really did a lot of the sales, and I

loved working with prospective clients.

310

To me,

it was just the problem solving exercise.

311

I'd go in and I'd really identify

what problems they were having,

312

and I would know our solution set

because, you know, as part of building it.

313

And that would just

314

kind of match them up and say, hey, look,

we can all these things you describe,

315

our customers don't experience

those problems, and here's why.

316

And we'd close a new deal.

And that felt very rewarding.

317

I enjoyed the work.

318

I love making the new relationships,

but I mean, eventually

319

there's only so many, you know, there's

a churn rate that you just can't avoid.

320

And if there's a sales rate

that you can't surpass,

321

you're just going to hit

a, you're going to hit a wall.

322

So you have to essentially figure out

how to build an organization

323

that can do that same procedure

successfully, so that you can scale.

324

And that's, you know, that was,

one of the things that I had to learn.

325

But it wasn't just me, right?

326

We had operations

327

people who are really good at things,

who had to give up things to other people.

328

And, you know, you're doing this

all across your organization.

329

What do you think?

330

What do you think

were some of the biggest,

331

I don't know, learning moments for you

going through that where you're like,

332

because you probably had this

nail, you're like, I can do this.

333

I'm working. And I and I got this down.

334

I don't know where you went

from delegating what you didn't like

335

to delegating what you liked or what

were some of the shifts where you're

336

you're like,

I never expected to have to do this,

337

but once I did it,

you started to sort of to see the results.

338

Yeah. So,

339

there's a lot of ways

I can answer that question, but,

340

I think the way I want to answer it is,

341

I so I

342

it being a member of eo

San Francisco was interesting.

343

So I remember in 2002, I met Vern Harnish.

344

If you don't know who Vernon is,

he runs a program called gazelles,

345

and he has a book called

Rockefeller's Have It.

346

And most people nowadays

they talk about Gino Workman's iOS.

347

But my experience was like Vern Harnish

348

was on all that stuff

well before Gino Wickman was.

349

And he came up with this program

called the One Page Business Plan,

350

which was basically the Vision Traction

Organizer 1.0. No.

351

And and I learned about that in 2002.

352

But at that time in my life,

I was like 26 and we were in survival

353

mode, and I couldn't process

how to do core values and all this stuff.

354

So we just kind of set it aside.

355

We took that up.

356

You know, and, and we then site

and we started having this discipline

357

of filling out what ultimately people

refer to as a vision traction organizer,

358

or if they if they like Rockefeller

habits, the, the one page business plan.

359

And we had a set of core values

360

and we had, you know, one year targets,

five year targets and quarterly targets.

361

And, and we had critical numbers.

362

And, you know, it was kind of

there was a discipline to it.

363

We went off site regular, you know,

every year to, to refill out this plan.

364

And we did a quarterly regiment

where we kind of like went off

365

site, not like, not like travel to,

but like, you know, for the for a day.

366

And and we thought we were pretty like,

367

we thought we were pretty smart, you know,

like we would tell people about it.

368

We were proud of it.

369

We would, we'd promote the core values.

370

I oriented everybody on.

371

There was a point in time

372

where I realized

that the values are wrong.

373

And, and I realized that there were

374

elements of the plan that we just couldn't

really conceive of very well.

375

Like, for example, the big hairy,

audacious goal, like, I like

376

I was too young and immature to,

like, properly understand that concept.

377

But the, the values was particularly,

378

important piece because,

379

I remember reading,

380

I think it was, Built to Last by Jim

Collins

381

and Jerry Porus and, and

382

I just

I don't remember exactly what he said, but

383

what I took away was something like values

384

should last the lifetime of the leader.

385

And so in the to come up with

these values, Jeff was really hard.

386

Like we we would go off

site and we'd spend days arguing about,

387

and running these exercises,

trying to come up with,

388

and trying to like argue about the, the,

the words.

389

Should they be this long?

390

Should they be this, should there be five,

should there be four?

391

You know,

392

and by the time we finally came up

with something that the founding team and,

393

and the lieutenants all agreed

to, it was like there was

394

maybe nothing in the world I wanted to do

less than go resort through that.

395

Not to mention that I'd publicly,

396

you know, promoted these things

for to clients and to employees.

397

And I had my reputation on the line.

398

But there, there was a specific thing

where I realized, like, this is wrong.

399

This is like this.

It isn't going to work this way.

400

And it's and it's and it's in our way,

the very values that we were so proud of,

401

that we promoted were,

were antithetical to our ultimate goal,

402

which we hadn't even well articulated,

but we kind of knew anyway.

403

And so,

404

so yeah, so

405

that was, that was a, that was a big thing

was like, like being willing to, to,

406

to to to be humble enough

407

to go back and retool that.

408

And so one of the things

I want to get across to maybe people

409

who are, you know,

in a different spot in their leadership

410

journey is like, don't be so hubris

about your about your values.

411

Like they're like they're written

on a stone tablet handed to you from God.

412

Like,

the way I look at it is as a as I see,

413

I kind of break I kind of make things

simple first before I make them complex.

414

And I see the

the job of the CEO is kind of

415

two dimensions first,

and they're both complex dimensions.

416

But the first one

is kind of your business strategy,

417

which I think is synonymous with vision

because, you know, your your,

418

your vision is ultimately a description

of the future state of your business.

419

It's where you're going

420

and your strategy describes your pathway,

how you're going to get there.

421

So that's your vision.

422

That's one half,

423

the other half are

what are the philosophies, beliefs

424

and kind of behavioral norms that,

425

if followed perfectly,

would manifest that vision.

426

That's the domain of values.

427

So like if that's off the table, like

if you're not willing to like, you know,

428

pivot to experiment with the philosophies

and beliefs and behavioral norms,

429

then all you can do is up your strategy

a lot.

430

All you can do then is try to make sure

your strategy sandwich

431

is in to the values.

432

Like yeah, yeah, yeah,

strategically we're stuck with these.

433

So we got to pick a strategy

434

that might work with the

with the beliefs and philosophy.

435

And the other thing about

it is like you should have values.

436

You should be willing to be wrong on them

because you don't know any better.

437

Like you don't know that they're wrong

until,

438

you know, like I didn't like

it took me getting new philosophy.

439

Like I

440

the what changed for

441

me specifically was I,

I read Edwards Deming, I went to business

442

school in 2008, and I took operations

from, from a woman named Sarah Beckman.

443

And and she introduced me to the

the lean principles,

444

you know, like the Toyota, Toyota way

and all that kind of stuff.

445

And I started reading Edwards Deming,

446

and I just remember

reading his 14 Points of Management,

447

one of them, point eight,

because I talk about this enough to know

448

that it's actually point eight is to drive

fear out of the workplace.

449

It's it's basically psychological safety.

450

Yeah.

451

That means explain that,

if you want to high quality organization,

452

then employees have to be

the eyes and ears

453

for leaders, which means

they have to surface the problems.

454

But if they're worried

about reputation, reputational risk,

455

and if they're worried about,

disciplinary action,

456

they'll hide problems from leaders

and leaders won't won't need to do it.

457

So at the

458

at the time,

459

two of our core values,

one of them sounds so innocent,

460

is have a sense of humor

and take enjoyment for the day.

461

Like it sounds so innocent even now.

462

As I say, it sounds like, well,

how could that be a problem?

463

Sounds really positive.

464

Sounds like we

we should all have positivity, right?

465

I'll explain in a second.

466

The second one that was a problem

was was take pride in your work.

467

Also like what?

468

Well, it sounds intuitive,

but here's how it manifested.

469

It manifested in a rubber chicken

that would hang on the cubicle.

470

Somebody who made a mistake.

471

That's okay.

472

What do you oh, so you

473

you would actually pass a chicken around

and be like, like every time.

474

It's like a mistake. It's kind of funny.

475

One person saying it was like it was like,

it was like a reverse trigger,

476

a good humored way of, like, trying to,

like, acknowledge that a mistake was made.

477

And it was.

478

But but underneath that was like

479

a kind of a disdain for mistakes,

you know,

480

it was like we had like, that was a kind

of to take pride in your work.

481

And when we nobody wanted the chicken out

482

in their cubicle,

and the rubber chicken was like,

483

humor was like at the

it was at the apex of value.

484

And, what I learned from Edwards

Deming is if you want a high quality

485

organization, by the way, which is managed

services, if you want to scale it,

486

you have to have, quality

just because it's so competitive

487

that if you can't produce

a lot of customer value for the dollar,

488

you just there's somebody else

that's going to take that work.

489

So what we needed was,

we needed was respect.

490

That was the and that's, you know,

that's what Toyota

491

figured out with respect for people.

492

So when you look at it's

okay to have humor, but

493

it has to be subordinate to something

higher, which in our case was respect.

494

So the humor couldn't have humor

if it was, you couldn't use humor

495

if it was disrespectful. Period.

496

Yeah, it was misaligned.

497

Misaligned.

498

And and so, you know, like,

you know, taking pride in

499

your work

was was kind of also off off the mark.

500

It was.

501

And it became something like taking pride

in how our work affects the people around

502

us, our customers, our colleagues and

and the and the societies we're part of.

503

And we want to take pride

in the impact of our work.

504

And, and so, you know, but

but the values were off enough

505

that culturally, we weren't going to

we weren't going to hit our milestone.

506

We weren't going to hit our our highest,

our highest potential.

507

And so then, you know, go back and retool.

508

That meant going to work and being like,

509

you know, we still love humor,

but it's not at the apex of value.

510

It's not the it's not the philosophy

and the beliefs and the behaviors

511

that's going to take us

where we need to go.

512

And that meant a retool. Yeah.

513

How long have you operated with these,

with this set of values

514

before you recognized

more than a decade, more than a really.

515

And and it probably at one point

516

felt like it was working

really well for it because having some

517

the thing about it was like,

we didn't we could

518

we couldn't really figure out big hairy,

audacious goal.

519

Like I didn't understand it.

Like we couldn't see that far.

520

So what we did instead was we

we set vision backwards.

521

It's like,

you know, based on, let's say, a best case

522

trajectory of what we think we can

do, where could we be in a year?

523

And then we set those targets

and we'd be like,

524

and if we did that for five years,

where might we could be?

525

We'd set those targets.

526

And it's like you just scaled up today's

performance and yeah, that's wrong.

527

Right.

What you what you really want to do,

528

what you really want to

529

do is say, okay,

if we could become anything

530

we wanted to become and all we had to do

is declare it, what would that be?

531

What would be our most audacious ambition?

532

That we would just love to see?

533

That would be like something

that would just be like,

534

all we had to do is declare this thing.

535

What would it be like?

536

Forget about time.

537

As a as a vehicle and what?

538

And that thing must be something

that we would be willing to sacrifice

539

other idols on the on the marks to it.

540

So, for example, if our if our ambition

was like to become $1 billion firm,

541

let's say, then we would probably have

to sacrifice owning our own capital table.

542

Right?

543

You know, so

but that wasn't what our ambition was.

544

Our ambition was to be the highest quality

managed services provider in the world.

545

Like we wanted to out quality everybody.

546

And we had a definition for what

that what that meant.

547

And it didn't matter big or small.

548

We didn't care,

549

we wanted to compete with the small guys

and quality in the big guys and quality

550

and we and we knew what metrics like

if we could see everybody's metrics

551

where we would have to win.

552

And so that didn't require us to,

553

to dilute our capital table,

but it did require us to sacrifice other.

554

Let's say, sacred cows.

555

And now in this case, it was the values.

556

Yeah.

557

So, you know, like

558

you have to be willing to sacrifice

everything to this highest order goal.

559

And that should be out.

560

That should be out in time

such that you're not,

561

let's say, lost by the pragmatism of it.

562

Like, oh, and there's no way it's like,

well, don't worry about the way.

563

The way will emerge.

564

Just pick your target

565

and then you start setting goals like,

okay, if we were to get there,

566

what would be a reasonable spot

where we could become in five years?

567

And if we were on track

for the five years,

568

what would we have to do in one?

569

And then in order to be a one,

what would we have to do next quarter

570

and how would we deal with that?

571

Start solving these problems over time.

572

And so you back into the

573

you back into the vision versus trying to

look at where you are and be like, wow,

574

if things went really well,

where might we be in a year?

575

It's like, that's not quite right.

You know, you want to.

576

And the thing about that, Jeff, is,

577

what's like the,

578

the ambition of the goal

is what creates the energy to achieve it.

579

You know, it's like small goals

are are not really that exciting.

580

Like people will spend energy on something

that's exciting.

581

So you want to you want your goal

to be interesting enough

582

where it'll it'll motivate cult.

583

Yeah.

584

Cultivate the energy to to manifest

the goal.

585

Well, yeah, I love that.

586

I love that statement.

587

But I'm curious though, because I think

a lot of people in your shoes

588

just,

you know, projecting a little bit here,

589

they would say to themselves, man,

we were operating for a decade.

590

We got, you know,

we got this system, core values.

591

We got some goals we're working towards.

592

We're making, you know,

millions of dollars, whatever that is.

593

And in revenue, like, I think a lot of

people would say themselves,

594

well, I don't think we need to change.

595

Like what was the signal you had that

said, no, we got to reevaluate our values.

596

We gotta rethink how we approach our goal

because we're we're doing bottom up,

597

not top down or whatever. Like what?

598

What did you see differently that maybe

other people wouldn't have seen?

599

That's funny.

600

I talk about a lot of the same things,

but hopefully your

601

your audience is different enough

or they haven't heard this before, but,

602

so I kind of one of the other

603

little tools I use to describe leadership

and goals is there's

604

there's the animating spirit of a prey

animal.

605

That's the limbic system

that stress, it's protect.

606

Then there's the animating spirit

of the predator animal.

607

And that's the goal seeking system.

608

That's the dopaminergic system.

609

That's where our fuel good

chemistry comes from.

610

That's becoming that's vision.

611

So if your

612

goal is to stay the same,

613

that's,

you're definitely going to manifest

614

the prey animal spirit because you're just

going to protect what you have

615

and know

nobody's having any fun in that system.

616

Nobody's nobody's challenge themselves

to become something more

617

the highest order, most love thing

we discussed in the

618

the nobody's challenged themselves

to be more.

619

You're not challenging yourself

to be more.

620

There's there's no vision.

621

You're not really leading anywhere where

you're leading people to what be the same

622

like that.

623

That's that's not going to inspire

anybody's best life, best performance

624

life, best work. Nothing like that.

625

So is it a lack of energy

or a lack of excitement in the team?

626

And you're like,

what's missing here? I mean,

627

there's just

628

something innately fun

about building something.

629

It's like playing with Legos

or playing a video game

630

where you're where you're building

something.

631

Everybody wants to be a part of it.

632

Your best people are going to go somewhere

where they're building something.

633

So if your goal is like,

I just want to be the same

634

because this is a good life for me,

it's like, maybe so for you,

635

but if you're a leader,

there's a lot of other people

636

and they want to go somewhere,

they want to build something.

637

They want to be part of something fun,

something interesting.

638

And if you can provide them

with that vision,

639

then somebody else

is going to provide them with,

640

you know, and they will go somewhere else.

641

And, and you'll just be turning customers

and turning employees.

642

You'll be doing the same amount of work.

643

You'll be in your limbic system

all the time.

644

You'll be stressed about every customer

loss.

645

You know, if you go in a predator

land, you're like, you're on the attack.

646

You're in the dopaminergic system,

you're doing something exciting.

647

Everybody's having fun along the way, and

you tolerate your setbacks a lot better

648

because you know, you're you're in that,

you're in that predator animal

649

or we didn't get that zebra or, you know,

I use a herd of lions chased zebras.

650

But we're going to go we're

going to go on the attack to the next one.

651

And, and and everything's fine,

652

you know, otherwise you're in that kick

beehive land where everybody's going.

653

Oh, you know, it's like chaos,

like the prey animal

654

land is, is is the

is the land of, of chaos.

655

And it's, it's when zebras get attacked,

they, they zig and zag and try to confuse

656

and everybody's confusion, trying

to avoid the trying to avoid the angry,

657

you know, whatever,

whatever is attacking them.

658

It could be the leader.

It could be a customer.

659

It could be a colleague.

660

People will invent problems internally

661

so that there's some drama

because they're bored.

662

I just I think it's,

663

I just have a very strong opinion

that that

664

if you want to be a leader,

then take people somewhere

665

or you'll be a leader, you know, like,

it's like, well, let somebody else lead.

666

Like,

667

if you want to stay in the same spot,

then let somebody else be the leader.

668

Yeah, but had you seen this,

this chaos in your team and then,

669

you know, once you sat down to figure out

new values, new vision, new

670

big hairy, audacious goal,

like, like did it bring order?

671

Did it bring alignment?

672

Well, what was the impact?

673

Just a quick note about our guest.

674

I host the breakout CEO podcast

to share behind

675

the scenes insights

from scaling businesses.

676

As an attorney,

I see the real challenges leaders

677

face long before success becomes public.

678

But client stories

have to stay confidential,

679

so we invite guest CEOs to share

their own moments of struggle and success.

680

I'm so grateful to our guest and MIT team

681

at Intellectual Strategies

for making this show possible.

682

Now let's get back to the show.

683

I see, I see chaos.

684

Well, so let me take it a step back.

685

So, you know,

I like these vision Traction organizer,

686

one page business plan is a tool,

but I think a lot of people are,

687

are using them without

really understanding what they're doing.

688

And because they're kind of useful

and they're working there, they're like,

689

they declare victory on it.

690

But it's better to understand

what's happening.

691

So the your values and your vision

are your uniting principles.

692

They make they are

what make your team a team, you know.

693

But like because you can have people who

have the same logo on their business card

694

but are not a team, they're just

you're just get paid from the same place.

695

That's the goal function as a team.

696

Patrick Lindsay

on these five Dysfunctions of a team.

697

Right?

698

Yeah, exactly.

699

If you I love Pat Lindsay

only by the way, he's a local guy.

700

He's here in Concord.

701

My boys went to school.

702

DeLaSalle were his boys

when they played lacrosse with him.

703

I also met him at Hawaii. Hawaii?

704

Or an EO event at San Francisco,

705

Brilliant guy.

706

I've read almost all of his book.

I think I've read all of his books.

707

The motive is absolutely fantastic.

708

That's a great book on servant leadership.

709

But anyway, yeah, but

and he also has one, by the way, called

710

Silos and Politics,

which is, a similar kind of vein.

711

But back to what I,

you know, back to my perspective on it,

712

the uniting principles.

713

You can disagree on things below, but like

714

if you disagree on where you're going,

like, like, you know,

715

what's your bag if you disagree on that,

you just need to be part

716

of a different team.

717

Like we can disagree

about what we can disagree about.

718

How the best way to achieve that bag is,

719

but only to the extent

that we're trying to get smarter

720

about the strategic direction.

721

And then we have to disagree and commit

because it's all about

722

he he's gonna be like lions,

you know, and lions go after the zebras.

723

They they don't go after the herd

arbitrarily.

724

They actually pick one of the zebras

because they don't have hands.

725

And tools, you know.

726

So they yeah, they circle that zebra out,

they like a target

727

and they and they get that

zebra away from the herd.

728

And then they, then they go for the kill.

729

I think workers do something similar.

Not there.

730

Yeah, yeah.

731

And so if you're,

732

you think about your team that way, like

if your team is just chasing the herd,

733

like I've got a better strategy,

I want to go after the slower zebra.

734

I want to go up to the older zebra.

735

What about going after the funny

looking zebra so we don't get lost?

736

It's like

if you have three different strategies

737

you're applying,

your team isn't going to win.

738

Like, you're better off

739

choosing a not perfect strategy

that everybody agrees to like.

740

I'd rather go after the a harder zebra.

741

If everybody were going after it together,

742

then,

you know, three different strategies.

743

But one of those strategies is the,

let's say, the optimal one.

744

It's like

745

your team alignment is much more important

746

than the, let's say, the optimal strategy.

747

So what aligns the team, you know,

what is it that aligns a team.

748

It's it's a shared ideology.

It's a shared vision.

749

It's the shared values

that make your team align.

750

Now here's something very useful to know.

751

We we

752

perceive

the world in relation to our goal.

753

So we don't even know what things are

until we know what we're trying to do.

754

Like we determine what's a tool,

what's an obstacle in relation

755

to what we're trying to accomplish.

And we do the same for people.

756

So we we figure out

whether somebody is a friend or foe

757

on the basis of whether they can help us

achieve the goal.

758

So our targets are aligning,

759

and if they're shared,

we can perceive each other as friends.

760

So the interesting thing about people

is they they want community from work.

761

Everybody thinks they want pay

and they do because they need money,

762

but they're going to be there all day. So

they want to work with people they like.

763

They want to find play and work.

764

There's other things that they want also

from work, and one of them is community.

765

And you can't really get community.

766

We just happy hours because if people

go to a happy hour with people

767

that they hate,

they see is obstacles in their way.

768

They're they're just not going to talk

769

to them in a happy hour

or they're just going to fight there.

770

In my first company,

the one that went under,

771

I literally had to break up

a physical fight between two employees.

772

Wow. Like it was so dysfunctional.

773

Yeah.

774

So you you like a happy hour

isn't going to solve that.

775

You know, like, quality time only works

if you perceive each other.

776

If there's if there's a

if there's if there's trust.

777

That's kind of the baseline.

That's Pat Lynchian.

778

And then then on top of that

you have shared ideology and that would

779

that would include the target.

780

And that shapes the very perception

itself.

781

So, so as a, as a leader,

you know, this work of creating the vision

782

and values,

I mean, it's it's the it's the work.

783

It's the leadership

work. It's not it's different.

784

The management, you know, it's it's

it's it's the work of a leader.

785

And that's what a leader needs to do.

786

Well, so how do you achieve that

with your teams then?

787

I mean, is it a matter of going off

and defining everything

788

and then teaching people

what you've you know, what values

789

you've adopted as a leadership

and helping them to align to those?

790

Or is it more about,

you know, finding people to bring on board

791

that are already aligned

so you don't have to realign them?

792

Like, what are the

what are the steps that you've taken after

793

working for a decade

under one value system?

794

Changing it?

795

I mean, did the team react to that

and say, whoa, what are we doing?

796

Like, I, I don't fit anymore?

797

Or how did you manage that change?

798

There's again,

there's a lot there's a lot of

799

depth below that question.

800

So let me, let me hit a couple

maybe a couple points

801

and I'll see

which one you want to dig into first.

802

So the first question might be like

how do you

803

how do you come up

with a good set of vision and values?

804

I mean, that's like a really,

really complicated question,

805

but it's the tactics

are reasonably understood.

806

So the first thing you need to do is

you need to understand

807

who your most competent

and loyal lieutenants are as a leader.

808

Like you have to figure out, like,

who's my first team,

809

who's my my best group of people.

810

The second thing you need to do, and

this is this is totally Patrick Clancy.

811

Only straight

from Five Dysfunctions of a team

812

is you have to build trust amongst those

people, and that comes from vulnerability.

813

So you

814

know that that means

that you have to be incredibly vulnerable.

815

There's exercises

we use, exercise called the lifeline.

816

Stole

that from the EO or the Ypo playbook,

817

where we share the highest and the highest

and lowest moments of our life.

818

By the way,

most people think vulnerability

819

comes from sharing the lowest

moments of your life, and that's true.

820

But a lot of people don't share their wins

821

because they don't want to be judged

as being egotistical or arrogant.

822

And so that's also

a risky, place to share.

823

So when you do a lifeline and you share

the peaks and valleys of your life

824

with with other people,

and you do it in a real sincere way,

825

it can be

the basis of people really understanding

826

how you think

and why you are what you are.

827

And so you do an exercise

where you can establish

828

some basic human trust, where you come

together, you drop rank, leader

829

goes first and you and you get vulnerable

and you and you develop trust.

830

Once you

831

cultivate trust, you know,

you kind of have to establish

832

this, this idea of like,

what could we become at our best?

833

This is that be

how it's going to guide everything else.

834

Then you need to understand

what are the philosophical principles

835

and ideas that are going to

that are going to help us get there.

836

Now, to do this.

837

Well,

you might nobody will like this very well.

838

But you have to have good philosophy.

839

That means you have to be well read.

840

Like I said, I didn't have the philosophy

of Edwards Deming

841

when I first set the values,

and that's why my values weren't good.

842

So but I've read probably at least

843

a thousand books, on business leadership.

844

And I've been to business school.

845

So like the philosophy

that's in our core value code

846

isn't like it isn't shallow stuff like,

oh, you know, my dad was a hard worker.

847

So hard work.

It's like, you know, it's like

848

there's Kim Scott in there.

849

And her radical candor about connection.

850

There's respect from the Toyota Lee,

and there's there's,

851

there's all these principles from,

852

from Lean Thinking by James Womack

and there's principles.

853

I mean, there's there's so many Patrick

Quincy O'Neill and service leadership.

854

So there's a library of probably 30

or 40 books

855

that unpack the principles

of our core values.

856

So you need to read a bunch of books,

and you need to figure out

857

what principles are going to help

manifest your vision.

858

And then you

then it's an effort to just distillation.

859

So you have a library,

then you have principles

860

and then you have values,

and values have to be a too.

861

So like just as a as an example

of how this works at Insight,

862

the first extraction, which is really easy

to remember but not meaningful is RSVP.

863

So like you won't forget that,

but it doesn't mean a lot.

864

But our stands for Respect and connect.

865

Okay,

866

our S stands for servant's heart,

867

V stands for value value

868

and P stands for progress over comfort.

869

Okay, so now they're starting

to get a little bit of

870

like now it's like now

it's like a stick figure drawing.

871

You kind of know what it means.

872

You know it's a human, but you don't

really know a lot under each one of those,

873

values.

874

Respect and connect has like 5 or 6,

875

we believe, statements

that describe specifically what it means.

876

And then each of the bullets,

there might be

877

1 or 2 books

even that are the making of that book.

878

So, for example, in Servant's Heart,

there's a bullet that says

879

a leader's purpose is to serve their team

so the team members can serve the clients

880

and each other.

881

That servant leadership that's illustrated

by Patrick on his book The Motive.

882

So if you really want to understand

that bullet, it's

883

really a distillation of an idea

that's illustrated in an entire book.

884

So as you grow in the leadership rank

885

and insight, your expectation for fluency

in the library,

886

the canon of literature that makes up

our philosophical underpinnings,

887

that our our behavior values,

you know, you have to get deeper

888

and deeper into understanding

the thought leadership behind them.

889

So values aren't

890

they're not for the meek, you know,

891

they're not like,

I like you can't just be like integrity.

892

It's like,

that's not that's not going to do it.

893

You know, it needs to

you need to really understand,

894

what the best business philosophy is

and how to align them with your strategy.

895

So we knew, for example, at inside,

because we're in a competitive market,

896

that it was going to be customer

value and quality.

897

We're going to be the ways

that we were going to differentiate,

898

which means that we had to take playbooks

from people who had operated in

899

in that kind of environment

and run those playbooks.

900

Excellent.

901

And that there was cultural elements

to the success of those plays, you know.

902

And so,

903

yeah.

904

So it's difficult like it's,

you know, there's there's no easy way

905

to, to victory.

906

It's it's just like anything like Steph

Curry works really, really hard.

907

And if you want to be a great leader,

there's just no way around it.

908

You're going to have to be really good.

909

That means you're going to have to.

910

Learn and dedicate yourself and

911

and you know and set the tone that way.

912

How did you get on the same page

with your team about this?

913

Was it easy?

914

They just said, yeah, this makes sense.

915

Let's let's do this.

916

Are they all readers?

917

And so, you know, or are you kind of

leading the charge by saying, hey, I'm,

918

I'm reading some books

and I'm going to share with my team.

919

And, you know, because at that level,

you've got a lot of team members

920

and just making sure

you're all in alignment on those goals is,

921

is probably a,

you know, an achievement in and of itself.

922

So, yeah, you know, it's funny,

923

because I started out as a CEO so young.

924

And when I say young, that's not really

even what I really mean.

925

What I mean is, like,

totally incompetent and ignorant.

926

Like, I didn't know I hadn't

I hadn't closed the sales deal,

927

I hadn't, I hadn't negotiated anything,

I hadn't managed anybody.

928

I didn't understand

how to read a financial statement.

929

I was just completely ill prepared. So,

930

I but I had this hour long commute to work

931

and an hour long commute home,

so I started just taking in audiobooks.

932

Yeah.

933

And I just took in every audiobook

that was available, and Barnes and Noble

934

just one by one.

935

And I would get reading lists

from people from OEO,

936

and I would just read them and,

I would be like, I would scrape the world.

937

And when I would find a good one, I

would, I'd be like, you need to read this.

938

And I,

you know, get my, my business partner

939

the book and then I'd get my managers

and then they would read it

940

and then we'd book club it,

you know, like,

941

okay, what's there to learn from this?

942

Is there anything to do about this?

943

How can we use this idea?

944

And and is there action to take?

945

Sometimes I'd get the paperback book

and I'd go through the highlighter.

946

And it just kind of became part

of my life, you know, I was on the road.

947

There was a ton of windshield time

948

And in 2010 to 2020,

I mean, two decades, basically,

949

it was just an enormous amount

of windshield white time to sales calls.

950

And I would just multitask,

you know, I'd be on these audiobooks

951

and, and, and I would share them out and,

and would talk to people about them.

952

And of course, you know, business school

didn't hurt either.

953

That was kind of a lot of dedicated

learning time.

954

And I so anyway,

so the bottom line was time plus effort.

955

Means getting good.

956

It's like, yeah, if you if you eventually

you get to 10,000 hours or whatever.

957

Malcolm Gladwell's idea where you become

a become a true expert and, and,

958

you know, it's helpful while

959

if you have a lab, you know, if you're

if you're a company and you're, you're,

960

you're a team, you're trying to lead

and you're

961

and you're seriously paying attention

to the signals that's happening there

962

because, like, stuff is going wrong

and you're what's going wrong.

963

Like, you know, I went a long time

where it's like, what's going wrong?

964

And I, you know, that's

when I'd ask a question.

965

I'd say, well,

966

are we executing the values

967

exactly as they as

we believe that they are?

968

Should me and if the answer is no,

then we have either.

969

We have,

970

you know, okay.

971

Well, we haven't either selected

right oriented right or operationalize

972

these values properly.

973

Because if we were executing the values,

the problem goes away.

974

Yeah.

975

Or maybe it's like no,

we're executing the values perfectly.

976

It's like well then the and the

and we're not manifesting your strategy.

977

It's like,

well maybe the values aren't right

978

or they're not clear

or they're not comprehensive enough.

979

And we need different philosophy.

980

And it would be like, well,

who could we talk to?

981

It's like, well,

who's doing what you're trying to do?

982

And they're doing it better than you.

983

They might know the answer.

984

So you go and you try to find them.

985

You say, what books mentors did you have?

986

And and you try to sort that stuff out

and, and you just grind.

987

And eventually the solution emerges

988

up, you know,

going back to goals, when you have targets

989

like this is another thing

that's that's very useful to understand if

990

if you your life is different

991

when you have a target like like

like what?

992

You'll pause on different things in your

in your social feed, for example,

993

like what will catch your eye?

994

Well be things that might help you

with your target.

995

So if you have a target

like your social feed will change.

996

Your conversations

will change with other people.

997

Yeah, it really changes

what you pay attention to.

998

So your your targets are ultimately,

999

a force function of attention.

00:49:04,791 --> 00:49:08,458

They and they

the other thing is kind of weird is they,

00:49:08,458 --> 00:49:11,458

they kind of control

your conscious like like,

00:49:11,833 --> 00:49:14,583

like when you're feeling like that nagging

feeling like I should be

00:49:14,583 --> 00:49:15,791

doing something different.

00:49:15,791 --> 00:49:17,125

What that is, is that your

00:49:17,125 --> 00:49:22,333

your current action is at odds

with your long term, your proximal goals

00:49:22,333 --> 00:49:25,750

or your proximal intentions

at odds with your long term term vision.

00:49:26,041 --> 00:49:29,625

And that's what that that's what it's

you know, that's a Jiminy Cricket

00:49:29,625 --> 00:49:30,000

kind of thing.

00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,958

It's like telling you, you

you should be doing something different,

00:49:32,958 --> 00:49:35,875

but you won't even get that signal

if you don't have the targets.

00:49:35,875 --> 00:49:37,166

Yeah. What's the what's the name of.

00:49:37,166 --> 00:49:40,000

I'm blanking on the name

where, you know, you you

00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,166

you don't notice something,

but once you speak it, you start.

00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:44,458

What's that?

00:49:44,458 --> 00:49:45,250

The reticular.

00:49:45,250 --> 00:49:47,000

The reticular activation system.

00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,000

It's called the raz. Yes. Yeah.

00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,458

And you're so you're talking about that,

00:49:50,458 --> 00:49:51,958

but you're also talking

about the reverse of it.

00:49:51,958 --> 00:49:56,791

Like if you're once you

once you have felt alignment,

00:49:57,208 --> 00:50:00,375

it's almost like you can feel

when it's not there, I guess.

00:50:00,375 --> 00:50:03,041

Right. You can say something's off.

00:50:03,041 --> 00:50:06,750

I, I like my raises, I'm un raised

00:50:06,750 --> 00:50:10,041

right now or whatever, but you're not

you're not noticing what you need to do.

00:50:10,041 --> 00:50:15,458

You're not seeing the pathway forward like

the pathway like the pathways are there.

00:50:16,083 --> 00:50:16,500

You know,

00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:18,333

and you

00:50:18,333 --> 00:50:21,333

know, like, sure, there's like a,

there's like,

00:50:22,375 --> 00:50:25,291

you know, you might be like,

oh, there's a genetic potential thing.

00:50:25,291 --> 00:50:30,750

It's like most that's like hardly

anybody's problem, you know, like that's

00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:33,875

maybe a problem if you're trying to be

the world's best basketball player.

00:50:34,916 --> 00:50:37,916

But like the the vast majority of people,

00:50:37,916 --> 00:50:40,666

it's hardly the, it's

hardly their issue that they've,

00:50:40,666 --> 00:50:42,416

that they're doing everything right

00:50:42,416 --> 00:50:44,250

and they've just run

into their genetic potential.

00:50:44,250 --> 00:50:45,875

Like how many people do you know

00:50:45,875 --> 00:50:48,625

who are who are doing everything right,

but they just ran

00:50:48,625 --> 00:50:49,791

into their genetic potential.

00:50:49,791 --> 00:50:52,083

Like it's

almost it's almost a limiting factor for.

00:50:52,083 --> 00:50:53,291

No. Yeah.

00:50:53,291 --> 00:50:54,625

We use 10% of our brain.

00:50:54,625 --> 00:50:54,833

Right.

00:50:54,833 --> 00:50:58,375

And, so we're not

I don't want to give you that very much.

00:50:58,375 --> 00:51:00,583

It's like you're capable of a lot more

and you know it.

00:51:00,583 --> 00:51:02,541

You know, I don't even need a

I don't even need that argument.

00:51:02,541 --> 00:51:04,666

It's like,

you know, that you're capable of more.

00:51:04,666 --> 00:51:07,583

So like like,

let's not let's not talk about

00:51:07,583 --> 00:51:10,583

let's not talk about your let's say,

your genetic potential

00:51:10,583 --> 00:51:13,500

as being the limiter

of why you're you're facing your problems.

00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:15,250

It's almost certainly not.

00:51:15,250 --> 00:51:18,250

Well, I'm curious to to take this

in a slightly different direction.

00:51:18,750 --> 00:51:19,541

You know, you mentioned

00:51:19,541 --> 00:51:20,458

there are probably only like

00:51:20,458 --> 00:51:24,333

a dozen companies out there

like you who who aren't, you know,

00:51:24,333 --> 00:51:27,333

the really small ones

or the ones that are, you know,

00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:30,333

P back

gobbling up the really small ones, like

00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:33,041

is there

00:51:33,041 --> 00:51:35,750

is there a reason that like,

is this where you want to be,

00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:38,833

you want to stand out in this, in this,

00:51:39,625 --> 00:51:43,375

in this place kind of between the small

and the and the really large.

00:51:43,375 --> 00:51:46,791

Is that the right place to be

or does it just depend, you know, another

00:51:47,041 --> 00:51:51,250

I guess what I'm really asking

is, should other people who are who have,

00:51:51,291 --> 00:51:56,875

you know, 10 or 20 people on their team,

should they be looking at p,

00:51:57,250 --> 00:52:00,416

you know, an acquisition

someday as an option

00:52:01,041 --> 00:52:05,000

versus looking at growing into something

like what you've grown it into?

00:52:05,333 --> 00:52:08,250

Or is it just, you know, how do they

how do they approach

00:52:08,250 --> 00:52:11,250

that type of decision?

00:52:11,458 --> 00:52:15,500

Well, I mean, I guess I,

I could never presume to decide

00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:20,458

for anybody something like, like what

their, you know, what's best for them.

00:52:20,458 --> 00:52:20,791

Sure.

00:52:20,791 --> 00:52:23,458

But then the question is like,

what should your capital strategy be?

00:52:23,458 --> 00:52:25,625

Should you own your own table?

Should you bootstrap it?

00:52:25,625 --> 00:52:26,875

Should you VC it?

00:52:26,875 --> 00:52:28,958

Should you find a family office

to partner with you?

00:52:28,958 --> 00:52:30,083

Should you get friends and family?

00:52:30,083 --> 00:52:33,875

It's like like I think it

you know, the thing I'd like to say

00:52:33,875 --> 00:52:37,500

is your capital strategy starts in service

to whatever your goal is.

00:52:38,250 --> 00:52:41,125

You know, you should

you should set a compelling goal

00:52:41,125 --> 00:52:44,083

that first puts juice in, you know,

like, puts juice in your own tank.

00:52:44,083 --> 00:52:45,958

Like it should be something

that you're excited about.

00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,583

You know, our our quality

00:52:48,583 --> 00:52:53,000

mission has really driven our company

for the last, let's call it eight years.

00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,958

And it was meant to be a ten year,

you know, ten year vision.

00:52:55,958 --> 00:52:58,958

Like, now what I'm thinking about is like,

what's next for us?

00:52:59,125 --> 00:53:04,208

You know, like, you know, we've we are

an incredibly high quality organization.

00:53:04,583 --> 00:53:08,666

And, you know, the next goal has to go

through that dot, you know, it can't.

00:53:09,208 --> 00:53:13,250

It's like, okay, what goes through

that dot to something to something else.

00:53:13,791 --> 00:53:17,083

And interestingly, like for me, I'm

what I'm thinking about now

00:53:17,083 --> 00:53:20,083

for, for our company is something like

00:53:21,041 --> 00:53:25,208

when I was first in this business,

I was a technology integrator.

00:53:25,208 --> 00:53:26,416

I kind of mentioned that we were brought

00:53:26,416 --> 00:53:28,041

technology,

put it in the people's business.

00:53:28,041 --> 00:53:31,041

And then for the last decade and a half,

let's say

00:53:31,541 --> 00:53:34,958

I've been managing tech, I've been

managing the technical tech stack,

00:53:34,958 --> 00:53:38,333

and it's been like making it secure,

making it reliable, troubleshooting.

00:53:38,375 --> 00:53:42,000

We've been doing integration, but

it's like, you know, replacing computers

00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,833

and replacing access points is like,

not not that much tech.

00:53:45,833 --> 00:53:48,208

Like the volume of new tech

that we've implemented

00:53:48,208 --> 00:53:51,625

has been slow and steady,

such that the predominant value we do for

00:53:51,625 --> 00:53:53,333

our customers is manage what's there.

00:53:53,333 --> 00:53:56,333

Yeah,

I think that I think that's shifting and.

00:53:56,791 --> 00:53:59,041

Right. Yeah, I think AI is shifting it.

00:53:59,041 --> 00:54:02,875

I think there's going to be

a bunch of new agents out the lamb.

00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,958

And I think what customers really

need is, a partner that

00:54:08,208 --> 00:54:08,791

is helping

00:54:08,791 --> 00:54:11,833

them translate their business problems

00:54:12,833 --> 00:54:16,333

in a way that the, the newest technology

can, can solve it

00:54:16,833 --> 00:54:21,000

and, and can really, really manifest

the next generation business.

00:54:21,416 --> 00:54:24,416

And I and, and the interesting part about

that is like,

00:54:25,208 --> 00:54:27,500

don't do that with somebody

who doesn't know support really well,

00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:30,916

because if you put a bunch of a genetic

AI in there and we don't know how to

00:54:30,958 --> 00:54:35,375

when the lamb changes models and it breaks

and you don't know what to do in the, in

00:54:35,375 --> 00:54:38,375

the company who put it

in, has it mastered service.

00:54:38,458 --> 00:54:41,250

You're hosed. So the service

00:54:41,250 --> 00:54:44,250

element, the managed services

element becomes just as important.

00:54:44,541 --> 00:54:48,000

But it doesn't become

the central differentiating factor.

00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,416

That means a customer

is going to get to come to us.

00:54:50,416 --> 00:54:54,000

It's going to be because of our skill

at at integrating tech.

00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:58,166

And so we we've had a business

intelligence practice and insight for,

00:54:58,541 --> 00:55:01,541

you know, the last ten years

where we were really good with data.

00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,458

And it turns out that like, what a great

skill to have with the AI because with AI,

00:55:06,458 --> 00:55:10,208

the first thing any kind of agent needs is

it needs to have information.

00:55:10,208 --> 00:55:10,750

And it

00:55:10,750 --> 00:55:12,583

the universe of information is too much,

you know,

00:55:12,583 --> 00:55:14,750

it needs to have your information

such that it can do

00:55:14,750 --> 00:55:17,333

what you need it to do,

and it needs to be restricted.

00:55:17,333 --> 00:55:20,250

It needs to be safe and needs to be

secure, needs to be reliable.

00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:21,916

And you create an engine below.

00:55:21,916 --> 00:55:25,041

And so we launched an AI, practice,

00:55:25,375 --> 00:55:28,541

this last year to go along

with our business intelligence practice.

00:55:28,541 --> 00:55:28,916

And I think

00:55:28,916 --> 00:55:32,125

that there's going to be a lot of business

transformation that's going to occur.

00:55:32,666 --> 00:55:34,291

And so what am I excited about?

00:55:34,291 --> 00:55:39,416

Well, I'm excited about solving

real market problems.

00:55:39,833 --> 00:55:42,833

It's like and I think about them

as really human problems like,

00:55:44,291 --> 00:55:46,375

maybe this will hit home, maybe it won't.

00:55:46,375 --> 00:55:51,666

But 200 years ago, the average life

expectancy for a male was 35 years old.

00:55:52,916 --> 00:55:55,291

So, you know, if you don't know,

it's like 76 now.

00:55:55,291 --> 00:55:58,250

So we've doubled that and more.

00:55:58,250 --> 00:56:02,541

And the only way,

the only way you can answer

00:56:02,541 --> 00:56:05,541

how is it's through technology

and markets.

00:56:05,666 --> 00:56:07,708

Yeah. That's how we did it.

00:56:07,708 --> 00:56:10,750

It's you know, it's it's

technology and markets. And

00:56:11,833 --> 00:56:14,041

and everybody's worried about AI

and they should be

00:56:14,041 --> 00:56:15,583

there's going to be dislocations.

00:56:15,583 --> 00:56:19,666

I'm not saying there won't be,

but we don't want to go back to a world

00:56:19,666 --> 00:56:25,208

where 80% of our workforce is is spending

time trying to make sure we eat right.

00:56:25,208 --> 00:56:29,291

And I think as we figure out how to deploy

the next generation technology

00:56:29,291 --> 00:56:32,833

to humanity's problems, we're going

to create more and more abundance.

00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:38,000

And so what what's really exciting

is to try to figure out how do we use

00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,166

what's there that use machines and tools

and tech to solve human problems.

00:56:43,166 --> 00:56:46,708

So that we can have longer lifespans

and richer lives.

00:56:46,708 --> 00:56:47,666

And, and we could do

00:56:47,666 --> 00:56:50,666

more interesting things

and we can build more interesting stuff.

00:56:50,875 --> 00:56:53,875

And so, you know,

that's what that's what excites me.

00:56:53,875 --> 00:56:56,875

And I think at, if, if I were

00:56:57,291 --> 00:57:00,416

speaking to leaders, it's like,

what real problem could you solve?

00:57:00,416 --> 00:57:03,416

You know, like pick a real problem

that like, the market needs like pick,

00:57:03,625 --> 00:57:06,666

you know, go after something

that would make things better if you

00:57:06,666 --> 00:57:11,000

if you succeeded, like,

hey, look like society would be better.

00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:15,375

You know, if I solve this problem, like,

right now, this problem is annoying

00:57:15,375 --> 00:57:16,250

for a lot of people.

00:57:16,250 --> 00:57:19,625

And if we solved it,

it would be a big win for a lot of people.

00:57:20,250 --> 00:57:23,208

And, you know, yeah, you got to figure out

the modernization strategy.

00:57:23,208 --> 00:57:27,208

But it's like find something exciting

to go off and, and and work on that.

00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:29,875

That's, that's human oriented.

00:57:29,875 --> 00:57:31,041

It's a human problem underneath.

00:57:31,041 --> 00:57:32,291

Will there be a market there?