We don’t talk enough about faith when we talk about women leaders. There are amazing women leaders in the #sacredtexts of #Buddhism, #Islam, #Christianity, #Judaism and #Hinduism. Women - sometimes little known - who show us that women have been leaders for ever. If I am honest this episode and the episode next week have opened my eyes big time.

Here Meera Baindur talks to us about the ‘woman of the Forrest’ who said NO. And of #gargi who asked questions. And Terri Hord Owens talks about #deborah the judge who ‘sat under own tree’ and #mary the single mother who never wavered.

Perhaps most helpfully Meera and Terri tell us how these women have influenced their leadership and decisions right through their careers.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 1:33

And why, why, why, why did I ever think I'd be doing such an investigation? No, not in a million years. But I'll tell you, it has been completely fascinating and totally inspiring. So the question to the leaders of today, the women leaders, of today is when you're in the shower at night, on a Sunday night in the shower, or lying in the bath, soaking in the bath, and you're facing up to the prospect of tomorrow, Monday morning, and some horrible meeting you don't want to go to or some task that feels almost impossible to achieve. Who do you think of from the sacred texts and why? For the women we spoke to, it wasn't easy to identify just two women, they can think of so many. But we push them hard on just identifying two, and identifying the leadership lessons that they get from each one. So in this episode, we start with Mira, first, who's going to approach the subject from the point of view of Hinduism, and Terri, who's going to approach it from Christianity. So sit back and enjoy the stories because they are of course beautiful stories told by women who care so much about these stories. And who will really take time, I think, to figure out what the, what the learning what the inspiration is from these women.

Julia Middleton 3:17

So first, I spoke to Mira. For you, it seemed to me that there were two women in the sacred text who had had this deep impact on you the way you think, but also actually, how you run your life and the decisions you to make today. A one is and forgive me if I get it wrong Dreshadwati, also known as Madhari, but actually really known as the forest woman, who I've fallen in love with completely already. And then the other one is a very well known person Progardi. So first, let's talk about the forest woman. So tell me the story of the forest women. Because it leads you to a very deep sense that at the heart of leadership, you have to learn to say no. Tell me the story.

Mira 4:19

So Madhavi was the daughter or Dristravati was the daughter of King Yayati. And her story comes in the Mahabharata epic. And the story goes like this in India, when a disciple works with a teacher. He he pays a kind of teacher's fee, which is called gurudakshana. And it's very important to pay the fees. So they've asked the sage called Kalaba. And he worked with a teacher called Vishwamitra. We don't know who he is, is one of the sages. Let's call him the teacher, and he stayed with the teacher and Kalaba was a poor poor man and Kalaba finished his studies and said to the teacher, may I give you your fees? The teacher said, No, it's okay. You're poor. I won't take any fees from you. But Kalaba was offended that my teacher thinks me incapable of doing human service. And he kept pestering him. And the teacher was so irritated. He just said, Oh, get me, okay, you want to get me something, you're irritating me, go get me 800 horses with black yields, white horses, black ears. So he goes to real skins. And many of them say we haven't heard of such horses. But go to this person, and he keeps going. And then finally he ends up in the king Yayati's court. And King Yayati says, I don't have a horse. But I have a beautiful daughter. And this daughters is got a power that after childbirth, she will regain her virginity. And she's beautiful. And so you can take her to different kings. And if she gives them all powerful, strong, brave sons, in exchange for those sons, you can get the horses from them so I can give you my daughter. So the daughter agrees because she wants to save up for the father's honour. And she says, Okay, I'll come with you. And she goes with Kalaba. And he finds out that there is a king called Haishva of the Ishkaku line, which is a very big kingdom, and she gets married to him. And it gives this Kalaba about 200 horses, and he she has a son called Vasuvanas. From the moment the son is born, she regains her virginity, and then blesses a child and the king says, Okay, now you go on, because you've given me a son. And then Kalaba comes and takes us back to another king, called Vivodhasa. And then the same thing happens there, marries him gets a child. And then the child is called Pratapdharana, a very famous king. And then he she goes to Ushinara another king, again, gets a son, who becomes a sage, by the way, called Sidhi, a great learned sage. There are 600 horses, and there are no more horses of that kind in the world. The poor disciple decides, Okay, let me go and says, here, our guru, here are my 600 horses with white horses like yours, but the last 200 I cannot find them in the world. But instead of that, I will give you this daughter of Yayati to marry and get a son by her. Then Vishvamitra says okay, I only meant it in jest. But since you're so sincere, I will agree. And the sage marries the girl and get another son called Ashtak, who again becomes the king. And so Madhavi, then Vishwamitra says, now go back to your father's house, because you've done your duty you've done serve both the prime and you've helped everyone. So now go back to your father's house. She goes back to father's house. And in her father's house, the father says, now, please choose your husband. She says that she says, I will marry the forest and live as a deer does, free and roaming. With the wind and the trees. She literally says she will become a deer in the forest. That's the way she articulates her wish. And a father says, if that is your wish, my daughter go forth. And she goes into the forest. So in one sense in one strong decision, she said no, because it's like her choice, her actual choice, not duty, not honour, not relationship, not love. No kind of social economic, world pressure, independent of all of this. She was able to decide and she said no.

Julia Middleton 9:07

So she could have been a queen. All her children were were amazing. She must have had an enormous amount of money. She was a Brahmin. She was she had everything.

Mira 9:22

She had everything. And she could pick her thing, right? She could pick the best amount. It was like almost like you know, a dating app where you can just choose any husband you want. And she was not even bound by just marrying those four of the previous husbands, her father said just asked and you can marry anyone. It seemed like a biggest. Everyone obviously seems to feel that she did her duty beyond the call of duty, whatever she was supposed to do. And so they're willing to reward her she could have asked to marry a god and she would have gotten, because she's she's been that good. But she said no.

Okay, so why does that story mean so much to Mira?

For me, the story means so much because of the the idea of a woman's desire, a woman's wish and a woman's intention as a leader, for me, it is about saying no, not compromising. You know, a lot of times we go after good things because the world says it's good, right? So marriage is good for you, staying alone is good for you, working at home is good for you, having children is good for you. So for as a woman, you're always being told what is good for you. And for when you make a choice, you often fall into the trap of saying yes to these things, because it's good for you. So it was very good for Madhvi to get married and live a happy life and have the wealth. But she chose to exercise that choice. And for me, her choice is powerful, it's not about what she do. She says I will be as free as a deer. She chose the forest because freedom was more important than what was good for her.

So for you, you say no to all kinds of things. I mean, I remember you saying to me, no, I will not take grand positions so that I can just make other people look good. No, I will not be the sub Dean if I think I should really be the dean. So it's not just saying no, it's also not not compromising,

Not compromising because she rejects the social cultural pressure of what she's supposed to do and what will be good for her. So when you reject something, people say, oh, no, you're making the wrong choice. Who knows if this opportunity will turn up again.

But also women choose to please people, don't they?

Yes, they become terrible pleasers. And that's what her earlier life was. She spent her entire life pleasing people. And her transformation in the end is, he's like, no. You want me to get married again? No. I've done my duty. And that's all beyond this you cannot ask me anymore.

THe other woman that you talked about is Gargi, that many people have heard of, and know of. And but Gargi's main message to you is that you want to be a leader who questions? That's right, isn't it?

That's right. And she's also kind of a feminist leader for me because she is unashamedly open about her intelligence and a level, she knows herself. This is confident, poised woman. And she comes from one of the most holy texts, the Upanishads, right? Her story comes from the Upanishads. So the story is that there's a big debate, and the king will reward the winner of the philosophy will debate with a lot of wealth. So Yangnyavalka, one of the most strongest contenders for that, who knows a lot. And this debate is not only about what you know, but your experience and wisdom because it's about spiritual wisdom, it is to find out who has the actual spiritual wisdom and is not just quoting the texts as by rote. And in this, Gargi a lot of people ask questions to Yangnyavalka and he answers them all. And everybody is kind of silent in the hall. Nobody knows what to ask this very, very clever man. And Gargi stands up and says us some questions about the reality of the world. She's an existential philosopher. And the question she asks is, basically, she asks, what is the loom on which the reality is woven, a very poetic way of asking. So he says, the reality of the world is more one on the air. The air we breathe, weaves this reality, so on and so forth, deeply spiritual. Then she says, what is air woven on? What is the loom on which air is moving on? And she keeps asking and asking and asking, till finally, you're supposed to end up with the answer that the great God Brahman, the great existence, knowledge, bliss, is the the ultimate loom on which the entire creation is woven. And then she says, what loom is Brahman woven on? Because you can just say it from the text, right? You can just say, God takes care of everything. But have you known God is wisdom that speaking, or mere prattled? And when she asks it Yangnyavalka hesitates. And he says, Gargi don't ask questions beyond this, because I cannot demonstrate my knowledge to you. And then he looks at her and from that, she gauges that he's not speaking of the text, but he's speaking from wisdom and experience. And then she replies back to him. She says, okay, I will not push you further than this. It's all right now. So for me, she is a leader, who is self confident, who is wise, and whose wisdom has inspired me to be a questioner. Because asking the right questions is more important than giving all the answers. So I turned out to be a philosophy student because her.

And you were guru and you chose not to be one why?

I think because I found that is a part of the Guru's role is to answer questions and solve people's problems. And I feel that people can solve their own problems. What you need to do is to ask them the right questions and they can figure out the answers themselves. And the whole point of the Guru became like you that you make your disciples codependent on you. And for me, Gargi did not tell Yangnyavalka become my disciple. I will teach you wisdom. She just let the students shine by asking the right questions. She did not give any solutions. She didn't write a treatise. She did not give up huge commentary on something. She just asked questions. And for me, when I was when I was going to be a guru, I realised that I was not being Gargi. I was trying to solve people's problems, teach people stuff. And then I figured out that everybody is a light unto themselves. They can figure out their problems. All you need to do is sometimes ask them some questions. People don't expect gurus to ask questions. People expect gurus to give them answers. So I became a philosophy teacher and all the time I'm sitting in question papers, and asking my students questions.

I bet you if I sat on a bus with you, you'd be asking people questions, not just your students.

No, no, I do ask questions even in the bus.

Mira, I so want to be on a bus with you. Thank you so so much Mira that was delicious. Next is Terri, whose stories are rooted in Christianity.

Terri, tell us about two women in original texts, whom you look to. When you're thinking about leadership, and your own leadership.

I have to say the first one is Debra, who is named in the Hebrew Bible, what Christians call the Old Testament. In the book of Judges, she's a judge, she the text actually calls her a prophet. She's unique in that, she's given this title and named a prophet and a judge without any complications without any excuses. She just is a judge. She is a leader. The practice at the time was that you sit where the people can find you. And the people come and bring their disputes to you. So Deborah does that and and she's described as sitting under her own tree, right? And that's something that normally only a man would do. And I think what I really love about Deborah's story is that there's no, there are no excuses made for who she is. She herself operates and owns that role of leadership with the people. I think one of the most important aspects of leadership is to be comfortable in your own skin, and to be comfortable with, with where you are, and to operate in it and not to be afraid of it or even to make excuses of why you're there or how you do what you do. She's a woman. And she's just a prophet. She just is, what she's been called and assigned to be. And it makes no makes no apologies for that does what she does as as a woman, and as fully acknowledged and accepted for that. I think a lot of times women feel that there's some accommodation that they have to make about either their femininity or how they approach a role. We think we have to step into a system and assimilate into it, as opposed to bringing who we are and how we do things or how we may think about things to the environment. And that's especially true in areas like religion, where men have dictated how things are done and even dictate the dress how people, you know what you wear, I don't like wearing clergy collars. Because to me, they're a male article of clothing. And I've got to put this male article clothing on in order to have this visible symbol, right? Of the authority, and that we don't see Deborah really worrying about this thing. She just is, she's, I'm a judge, I'm a prophet, and that's who I am. And, and the text gives her that place, which is also unusual, there's no like, little explanatory note about how she got to be who she is, or she was this, but, there's none of that kind of language. She just is who she is, makes no excuses, operates in ways that society at the time might have assigned to a man but she shows, makes no excuses, shows no weakness, shows no discomfort, or reluctance to simply operate as a profit and a judge, she just is. And she does those things. And she's accorded that respect. Because of that, I think.

And your other one is Mary.

My other one is Mary. Yeah, Mary's story is painful and difficult. I mean, she becomes pregnant at what scholars think is probably about 14 years of age. Joseph hears this information and knows that he could, that the law would determine that she'd be put to death. And in the angel in this in the text, the angel comes down and say No, it's true. It's really true. So she's living through immense shame. We think teenage unwed moms go through a lot now well, for Mary, that was, that was death. There's no coming back from that, right? There's no, there's no restoration from that. And yet she's given a promise. She is visited again, by an angel, it's affirmed by an elder cousin, get that practice of women of seeking wisdom from others, right, she seeks wisdom from other people. I think that's a big part of her story. She hears what she hears, but she knows that there are others, other women who have wisdom that she needs. And she gets that from her cousin Elizabeth. And she's so believes in what she's been told will happen to this baby. That, you know, Jesus is, you know, he's in the temple at age 12, talking with the, the, the religious leaders, just like he's in seminary, thats unusual. We know that in that culture, women were the ones who, before the the young boys were able to go off to study with the male leaders, it was the women who taught them. So there's another sense of her power and her belief in that vision, because she raised this amazing human. And the first miracle that Jesus does is at his mothers prodding, even though he's kind of annoyed with her, saying mom, it's not time yet, it's not time, but she knows what he's capable of. She knows what he can do. And she never, she's never the one that tries to discourage him. She even when she's witness to the crucifixion, so to see your dream and your vision literally killed in front of you. And yet, we know that she becomes one of the very first followers of the Jesus's movement, I often joke and say, of all the people that are recorded that Jesus saw after his resurrection, I really believe that Jesus stopped by his mom's house. I think he made sure that somehow she knew, but she never loses sight of that. When we have vision and leadership, we have to hold on to it. There will be ups and downs. I mean, I've been in my own role, almost five years, two years, two and a half years into it, there's a pandemic, lots of stuff I want to see, want to see happen. But the perseverance of either division that you've been given is a clear one. And sometimes you have to know when to shift, but the belief that what you you've envisioned can happen. And that that vision isn't always accomplished by you, or by you alone. One of my mentors said, when you're in school, everything is about evaluating you and how well you do so we get used to being told that we're successful based on what we do. In leadership, he said, the higher you go and the more responsibility that you have, the more success will depend on what you're you enable other people to do. We can look at Jesus and say the success of that mission had a whole lot to do with who Mary was and how Mary believed in Mary's own faith. But I don't imagine that she was the kind of person who was walking around saying what? See what I did. Yeah, that was my idea. And real leadership isn't about that. I mean, if you if you're fighting for credit all the time, chances are the credit probably isn't justifiably yours. If the credit belongs to you, you'll get that credit. And isn't the most important thing that what you have envisioned actually happens? Whether or not you get full credit for it or not, I work for someone who wanted to, needed to have vocal credit for everything that happened. And I said to her once is don't you realise that the success of this place reflects well on you, whether you had a think had the thing to do with it or not. The fact that this organisation thrives and you're the leader means that something is going well. And and people are going to ascribe that to you whether you claim it or not. But if you fight for it all the time, then people begin to raise questions about what your real motives are. So I think Mary is a good example of, of accomplishing something through other people for which she doesn't really get a whole lot of credit.

Terry, that was indeed wonderful. You can see why I've been enjoying doing these two episodes. on faith. There's so much learning, I don't really have much to say, the need to say no, the need to ask questions, the need to sit under your own tree, the need to never lose sight of the vision or to claim credit for it. But it has to be said from this episode, the strongest image that will never go away from me, I think, is the possibility of one day being on a bus with Mira, who used to be a guru. The thought of being on a bus with Mira asking masses of questions of everybody in the bus and they don't know that she actually, she's a guru, and she should have the answers. What an episode. These these are powerful lessons from women who lived a very, very, very, very, very long time ago who were undeniably leaders, even if they weren't always recognised as such. As we close off, just really important to do this shout out. We've just fixed the second of the lives with Hinamoa. On Thursday, the 18th of August at 8:30 PM UK time. If you want to know more about the details of the live of go to us on Women Emerging on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. But do join us or pick it up afterwards, of course. Hinamoa is leading a group within the expedition who are doing who are as she says interrogating the concept of motherhood and to what extent motherhood and mothering influences women's leadership. She has strong views on this subject. And it will be fascinating to answer your questions and to play with ideas. So hugely hugely looking forward to it. Talk soon.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the Women Emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say.