Are you exhausted from trying to be the perfect church leader who has all the answers? Nicole Massie Martin, COO of Christianity Today and author of "Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender," introduces us to cruciform leadership—a revolutionary approach that places the cross at the center of how we lead. Drawing from her journey from corporate consultant to ministry executive, Nicole reveals how most leadership models ignore the very heart of Christian faith and why pastors are burning out trying to lead like the world instead of following Jesus.

In this powerful conversation, Nicole shows us what it means to replace perfectionism with perfect union with Christ, how to let God set the pace instead of competing with other churches, and why authentic vulnerability is what congregations are actually hungry for. Through cruciform leadership, church leaders can move from trying to be their congregation's savior to pointing people toward the real Savior, discovering the abundant life that comes through embracing the way of the cross rather than chasing worldly success.

Jesus doesn't call us to be perfect, to preach the perfect sermon, to have the perfect words of condolences over a person who's lost a loved one. He's calling us to be in perfect union with Him. So what does it look like for us to replace this image of perfection with an image of perfect union with Christ? Because in those times, then maybe I won't confuse excellence with obedience. Maybe I'll just allow myself

to be with God and allow whatever emerges to be part of God's redemptive plan.

you

Hello everyone, welcome to the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate the changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile

And

I'm Alicia Granholm. One of the core themes of this podcast is leadership. What does leadership in the way of Jesus look like in these challenging and uncertain times in the church and in the world? And today we are thrilled to welcome the Reverend Dr. Nicole Massie Martin, COO at Christianity Today, founder and executive director of Soul Fire International Ministries, and the author of the new book,

Nailing It, why successful leadership demands suffering and surrender. As in Jesus's day, we see many models of leadership right now that emphasize triumph. In our conversation with Nicole today, we want to consider how the cross actually reshapes what it means to lead in the way of Jesus. We are so excited about this conversation. Welcome, Nicole.

Thank you, I'm really glad to be with you Dwight and Alicia.

So Nicole, can you start by sharing a bit about your own background in ministry and leadership? How did you get to where you wrote this book?

How did I get here? By the grace of God. ⁓ No, I will start from present and work backwards. currently at Christianity today as the chief operating officer and prior to that was the chief impact officer. And I got into this role mostly through relationships with ⁓ a friend and colleague at that time that was Tim Dalrymple and his wife Joyce. I've known them for many years and just knew that God was calling me to serve.

the church, capital C, in the best way possible, and I knew that CT was the space for me to do that. Prior to that, I served as the Senior Vice President at American Bible Society. That was the Senior Vice President of Ministry Impact. So I oversaw our domestic and international Bible engagement, Bible distribution, Bible access programs, and trauma healing. I did that for a few years. And then prior to that, I was at the Park Church as the Executive Minister.

And prior to executive minister, I was the minister of young adults and singles. And some placed in that smothering, I was also teaching at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary as professor of leadership development and spiritual formation. So, you when I go all the way back to before my first job at a church, I was working as a consultant at Deloitte Consulting and I had, that was my first job out of college.

But you know, it's funny how God will shape your calling based on both your kind of desires and your frustrations. And I remember being a consultant and I would sit on these projects and somehow find myself in conversations about God. And it was conversations about God that led me to start a Bible study with my coworkers. And it was the Bible study with my coworkers that led me in a business school weekend to decide, actually, I think I want to study God's word.

which led me to seminary, which set me on the path where I am today.

I love that journey and how, right, it's when we look back, you're like, ⁓ yeah, that's how it was unfolding. it's, you know, it's usually not always so clear what might lay ahead for any of us. I'm curious, Nicole, what led you to think that we might need a fundamentally different style or model of leadership for today?

So many things. I think as a leader, I've always known that there was no true style out there that felt like mine. To use an analogy of kind of alterations, I was a professional leadership alteration specialist. I would take a book and I would read it and then I'd be like, but I can't do it that way. I'm going to have to...

trim the sleeves a little because there's no way I can just pounce in there with power. Or I'd read a book about humility and I'd be like, I'm gonna have to shorten that hem a little because I already struggle with imposter syndrome. There's no way I can be any more low than I am right now. So I think I found myself constantly trying to shape and curtail other leadership styles to fit what I felt God was calling me to. And that was one of the kind of drivers of the book. But the other driver was,

not just a cookie cutter, but also how do we lead in a way that actually serves people and not just our own interests? And that was part of what came into the book.

Well, I'd love to draw you out a bit more about the book and how you make the cross the center of this, which is really rare. I've read a lot of leadership books for ministry. It's my job. Yeah. Bless you. so often the cross barely shows up at all in the conversation. It's so much about how do we accomplish certain tasks, get things done. And sometimes it might be, know, transformational rather than simply transactional leadership, you know, some of those paradigms. But the cross,

⁓ I really

is so provocative ⁓ as the central symbol that you put before us in thinking about leadership. And so what does cruciform leadership, cross-shaped leadership look like as a model for Christian leaders? And say more about that.

think we find ourselves in a very unique place in history and in life right now, and it's a chicken and egg situation. Do we have poor leadership because we have poor discipleship? Or do we have poor discipleship and therefore we have poor leadership? And the answer is yes. This cruciform leadership is about living your life in a way that is shaped toward the cross. So you cannot be a leader without...

being a disciple and you cannot be a disciple without clinging to the cross. And when you look at the landscape of leadership today, the common issues we face, issues of narcissism, issues of toxic leadership, issues of a self-centered, ⁓ absorbed way of building your brand, your platform on the back of your organization or your, you know, someone else's logo, issues of people flailing at work, drowning under the pressures and the burdens and the stresses that they carry. When you look at all of these issues,

I think the core issue is we have overinflated the victory of resurrection at the expense of the cross. We have taught people you can have your best life with Jesus. All it takes is growing every day better with Jesus. You can be the best leader you can be by just focusing on these eight principles. When reality, the reality of the cross is you have to go through the cross to get the crown.

There is suffering before there is joy. And when you look at the greatest leaders of our time, they were best shaped in the crucible of the cross, so to speak. They were best shaped in the valley and in their failures than they were at their heights. So how do we become disciples who allow ourselves to be fully shaped by the vulnerability of the cross? I am not at all suggesting we should be martyrs. I'm not all suggesting that we should just, you know,

kill our lives, but I am saying following Jesus means taking up your cross. It means being willing to suffer with those who suffer. It means being willing to be vulnerable. It means being willing to fail, but it also means that God redeems every failure, that God lifts you from every valley to bring you to the mountaintop. It also means that I get to enjoy resurrection because of the cross. So whereas some people would say it's only a resurrection,

reality that we're living, I would say you can't appreciate that without going through the cross. So it's not just cruciform leadership, it's a cruciform life. And I wrestle with that every day. Lord, how do I become more like Christ? How can I surrender the things of this world, of my ego, of my issues, so that I can be closer to you? Because as a disciple, that's what I want. And if I want it as a disciple, then maybe that will help me to be a better leader as well.

I love that Nicole, and I am so curious. I'm thinking about someone who might be listening to this right now and who might be curious about, you know, as I listen and I reflect, I realize that yes, I have wanted to go for this success without having to go through the difficulties and the hardship because, it just doesn't feel good to fail. You know, I just want to avoid that at all costs.

⁓ So I'm curious how, ⁓ you know, if you were coaching or consulting with a leader who really, for all intents and purposes, has tried to avoid the cross, if you will, in their leadership, ⁓ but wants to really embrace that ⁓ as a model for leadership moving forward, how might they do that? Where could they go from here?

First, I would coach them by saying, this is a journey. There is no point of arriving. So, you know, let's get rid of this idea that you get to a certain point, you arrived and then you figured it out. This book was not written at all from a place of having arrived. I'm still on this journey. I'm still trying to figure it out. And this is the joy of discipleship that we get to figure it out together. But part of the first steps is the acknowledgement that you cannot lead without a Lord.

We make ourselves our own lords in leadership. We say we're the ones that have to have all of the answers. We have to have the right vision. We have to lead well and therefore it all rises and falls on our shoulders, on our decisions. I was wrestling with this even last night. There's some major decisions we have to make at work and I was stressing out. I was like, my gosh, I don't know how we're gonna do this. I don't know how to find the answers. And I called a friend and he was like, first of all,

This is God's work. God's gonna bring the answers. Second of all, God loves a crisis because when you are out of your league, then you're more likely to depend on the Lord. And I got off that call and the only thing I could do was to repent. Lord, I'm sorry for thinking that I was in control of the situation when you've been in control all along. And then the second was to beg for God's guidance. I can't do this without you. I need your help. And I think if we're going to be

Cruciform leaders if we're really going to lead in the way of the cross the first step of crucifixion is Acknowledging your need the deep need that you have for Christ I wonder what it would look like if leaders just took a step back and said I don't have the answers. I have to depend on God I think it would not just give freedom to that leader, but it would also give freedom to the teams that we lead Teams, you know, especially in Christian settings. They need to hear

We are all collectively depending on the Lord to do this work. And when we fail, God's grace is sufficient even for our weaknesses. It just gives room for organizations to breathe. And even in secular spaces, it gives room for collaboration that you wouldn't have if the leader is the only one that has all the answers. Because the moment I realize I can't do this, only God can do it, now I'm saying, Lord, show up. How are you gonna show up? Because you might bring the answer from the person in the mail room.

You might bring a solution from someone who is least likely on my team, but I won't be open to that if I think it all rests on me. So the first start is just be honest with God, declare your dependence on the Lord, and then watch the Lord provide in ways you'd never expected.

I love that you really helping us reframe leadership from being this kind of individualist, know, ⁓ autonomous sort of thing to really relying upon God and then much more of a communal approach as well. So I want to just explore with you a bit how this kind of approach could it can avoid reinforcing a certain kind of maybe more dysfunctional martyr complex that some leaders might be predisposed to some among our audience, perhaps.

Or, on the other hand, could fall into reinforcement of disempowerment for groups who are historically have been disempowered.

Yes. I'm so glad you asked that question because again, this is part of my tension in writing this book. I was weary of the one size fits all approach that never felt like it affirmed the things in me that needed to be affirmed. So if you take, for example, an understanding of power, I've read books that are like, just give it all away. You need to be powerless because real leaders are servants with no power.

Well, again, that doesn't work for me if I'm from, you know, if I felt for most of my life marginalized and if I felt powerless most of my life, you telling me that I don't need power actually reinforces the fact that I already feel powerless. And what it does is it causes me not to lead because now I don't, not only do I feel powerless, but I don't feel like there's ever a way for me to lead with respect and dignity. On the other hand, I've read books that are like,

the leader is the most powerful person. And if you don't wield all power, if you don't harness all power, then you will be perceived as weak. Well, that doesn't work either because I've been in situations where the toxicity of power can cause people to abuse power, to think that they are the ones that are in control. you know, for example, in the chapter on power, which I had to rewrite three times for all of my voices in my mind, I was trying to say what matters

is understanding A, God has given all of us power. That is an undeniable, indisputable fact. Even the most powerless among us have been given power by God. So embracing that is the core. And then B, where is your power is the question you need to ask. Not how do I get power or release it. It's where is your power? Because for me, someone who has felt powerless, I've also had to wrestle with God has given me power. It's just I've chosen

To ignore it, I've chosen to deny it. I've chosen to believe that it's not as powerful or as useful as someone else's power. Because maybe in that instance, my power was the power of, ⁓ was, maybe it was an influential power. Maybe I was a peripheral member of the team and I could influence by way of my knowledge because I knew about the subject, but I didn't have legitimate power. didn't have the head seat. So asking the question, what kind of power I have,

is a whole different conversation altogether. And I would say for those who are wrestling with having too much or too little, the question is, if you have it, because all of us do, what kind do you have? And then of course, that last part is, how do I use what I have for the glory of God? That's the core, not for the building of my own empire, not for adding more followers or likes, but how do I use it for God's glory right now?

I love that question. It's ⁓ countercultural, right?

Yes.

feel like actually. None of this is easy, by the way. Let's just say that again. This is a work of the Holy Spirit that cannot be done in the flesh.

Yes, and amen. So Nicole, many pastors that we work with know that their congregations are carrying, you know, significant stress from the pandemic fallout to political divisions to economic uncertainty. How might church leaders actually enter into that reality rather than just asking people to leave it at the door?

I'll give you an example, because I have heard it multiple times and experienced it myself. One small example is there was a pastor who ⁓ was, had older kids and was doing a sermon series on raising children, but his kids were out of the house. And in the sermon series, he included things like, you must make sure your kids get to bed at the right time. You have to make sure your kids are always eating more vegetables and fruits than they are processed foods.

You have to, and I remember, again, this same scenario is both one I experienced and also one I've heard from other people. I just remember my mommy guilt was just on 15 out of 10, like on a scale of one to 10, it was on 15. my God, I gave them Cheetos yesterday. my gosh, because I had a late meeting, they stayed up late because I just, you know, I had to, I just had to do what I did. And part of the challenge wasn't just the sermon. It was the fact that this pastor,

was preaching it from a place that was distant from where the congregation was. And my dad was a pastor. And I remember one of the hardest parts of his job was he would spend the bulk of his time and energy in pastor world. He was doing pastoral care. He was writing sermons. He was working on Bible studies. He was in this world, this kind of bubble that insulated him from being fired as a teller at the bank because he'd never worked at a bank.

He was in a world that insulated him from ⁓ the fears that families have when they have to make decisions about their loved ones, you know, near the end of life because he was in a pastor world. But what helped him and what I saw at least as his child, helped him is he was always in conversations with people who had lives that were different from his own. So I think pastors do themselves a disservice when we stay in pastor world and in pastor bubble.

and we do not allow ourselves to get out of our regular routines because then we only surround ourselves with people who are like us and who understand us. And then we get up to preach a sermon and we don't recognize that the examples we're using don't reach the people that are in our congregation because we don't know them. And I would say today more than ever, nowadays we have so many tools available to us to show us the metrics and the analytics about our congregations that we have no excuse, no excuse.

for not taking the time to get to know the people we served. My dad's time in the 80s and 90s, the only way he could do that was going to 100 coffees and going to 100 people's houses and suffering through 100 casseroles just so that he could hear, how are you really doing? What's happening in your world? And that helped him. You don't even have to do 100 coffees nowadays. You don't even have to do potlucks. You know, that's a whole different conversation, what happened to the church potluck. But I would say to pastors,

Take the time to empathize a word that we have almost lost in our civic dialogue. Take the time to listen to and empathize with views that are not your own, with people who live lives that are totally different from your own. And then maybe when you have your sermon series on disciplining and raising children, you can at least add a few caveats. Like, and if you're a working mom and you had no choice but to keep your kids up while you finished a meeting, God's grace is sufficient for you too.

I hope I didn't belabor that point, but I do think we need pastors who will not just identify with their own lived experiences, but who are willing in the way of Jesus, in the way of the cross, to make their way, to take the long route and stop by a well and sit down and talk to a woman they would have never met. We need pastors who are willing to take the long route and stop through, you know, ⁓ Syrophoenicia and meet a woman.

who might just find you when you need to rest. Like, we need pastors who are not afraid to go out of the way of their comfort zones to encounter other people, to hear other life examples, so that they can really present a fuller picture of the gospel that goes beyond their own experiences.

Well, that's a great ⁓ segue into the next thing I wanted to ask you about from your book, which is, you know, so many pastors and church leaders feel like they're just constantly harried trying to keep up with all the tasks, right? So the ministry is just sort of accomplishing all these tasks and they might listen to you and say, well, I don't have time for that. I don't have time to be diverted into those kinds of encounters. And in your book, you talk about letting God set the pace.

Yeah.

Yes.

And I think this is a really important piece, so I'd love to have you share a bit more with us about that.

Yeah, I really try ⁓ to not demonize the seasons in our lives where pace is necessary, a faster pace is necessary. There are authentically seasons that are more busy than others that are just, you know, it's the start of the school year. It's ⁓ October for the pastor or Easter for the pastor or Christmas for the pastor.

There are certain seasons where as much as you want to put off Easter or Christmas, they're going to be on the calendar and it's going to be what it is. And you're just going to, you know, you're going to take a deep breath when Lent comes around and you're going to pray that God will carry you for these 40 days leading up to Easter and give you a really good vacation after. So there are certain times and seasons in our lives where pace is required, a faster pace is required. But there are also times and seasons where a slower pace is required. And the only way we can know the difference

is by tracking our lives with God. And I can give you a very real example. I've been revisiting a book I read years ago. It's the Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. I've read it in seminary, I read it after seminary, now I'm rereading it now. And one of the things that strikes me is just the ability to allow my communion with God to dictate what I do, but also allowing my communion with God to invade the things that I do.

So a very practical example, you take Easter again, leading up to Easter, the pace of the calendar is going to be more intense, but you can practice the presence of God in that pace so that while the things around you are moving quickly, you can still pace, set your heart to God's pace, which is typically not anxious and typically not speeding along. And in the times when things are a little slower, take

July or August in the life of the pastor, you can really set your heart in communion with God to enjoy the mundane times. And then maybe it'll be like Bernard of Clairvaux since we're on the monks. Maybe then you'll be like the reservoir storing up all that God pours in and then pouring out of the overflow and out of the lack. I think my tension is we often set our ministry paces according to competition.

The church across the street had just set up another service. That means we've got to get on this other service. I just visited a church that had 3,000 volunteers and we only have 300. We have got to do a better job training and equipping our volunteers. Yes, and what does God's timing say? Is now the right time to start that program? Is now the right time to compete with the church? And you will never know that if you are out of communion with God. This is like not a new message.

but it's one we need to hear in our fast-paced world. It is about communing with God. And when I commune with God, there will be times when God will do like the Philip example, he's gonna catapult you from one sphere to another. And before you know it, you're in five conversations at one time. you don't even know what's happening because it's happening so fast. And then there are times in my communing with God where there might be a Lazarus moment where God says, hold, hold, don't go yet. You go when I tell you.

And then when you get there, you'll feel late, but God says, nope, you are right on time. But you will never know that if you are out of communion with God.

That's so great, Nicole. was thinking about, I have a reminder on my phone that goes off every morning. ⁓ God asks you to be faithful, not successful.

I

am stealing that right. Okay.

I

because you guys, the amount of mornings that I'm like, oh, yes, you're right. I'm not kidding. Like it convicts me almost every morning and I don't even know what time it's like seven o'clock, eight o'clock in the morning. Right. Like the day hasn't even started and I'm like convicted. Okay. Here I am. I'm faithful. I'm faithful.

huh.

I think we have that natural inclination of like, want to be successful and it's not a bad thing outside of the communion of God. we that pace, I love how you kind of frame that of we can be doing the right things and yet out of the pace of God, I mean, that's where burnout shows up.

Yes.

where

we don't have time, if you will, for, we don't make time, if you will, for the diversions or the long way around. And then we feel, you know, a lot of shame, I think, and guilt and conviction. know, Dwight, to your point of, well, how am I supposed to make time for that? I got all these other things I'm supposed to be doing. But we always, we forget to ask, yes, Ann, is...

Like is God inviting us to do those things or we say these are the things we should be doing, you know? Go ahead.

No, just, I think this is a great, this is really important. mean, and I think this is partly where I, I think the cross becomes such a powerful focus for us. Nicole, one the things I love about your book is that it's so, again, it's so counter-cultural because if you think about the cross in Jesus' day, it was the most offensive symbol. If you were a Jew or a Greek, right? It was a symbol of humiliation and powerlessness. And then it becomes for us as Christians, the symbol of

God's ultimate power and victory. I think that's where I think a lot of leaders that we work with are struggling is that we live in a culture that forms us to think it's up to us. And there isn't a lot of space for God to actually act in that kind of way.

That's so true. And you know, it grieves my heart, even when I think about my own experiences, how molding ourselves to the success patterns of the world is crushing for the soul. It is crushing. And what I loved, Alicia, about your example of setting the alarm is when you really, as a believer, allow yourself to start seeing success God's way, you get life.

You start to breathe. You start to realize, this is how God wants me to live. But you don't know that when you're constantly fighting and you're constantly pressing and you're constantly trying to perform and to be perfect and to go fast and to scale because the world says those are the things that matter. And then at the end of the day, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? And we have pastors who are soul dead.

because they've been trying to do ministry like the world. And when you really think about it, not only did Christ never call us to do that, but maybe that way of doing ministry is supposed to cause us to be offensive. It is supposed to break us because that's not of God. What is of God gives us life. Jesus comes to give us life in that more abundantly. So the way of the cross,

is abundant life. That's the other irony. We think, my God, I don't want to die. I don't want to give up any part of myself. I like who I am. I like the life I live. Please don't ask me to sacrifice. But this is the irony. Unless a seed falls to the ground. You know, this is the irony. Unless you die, unless you are crucified, then you will never really live. The joy of the cross is we get to die. We get to surrender it.

Because through that, we get to experience a life that we would have never experienced outside of Christ. And that's what we need to do with our pastors and leaders. Help them to see there's a better way of living, there's more life ahead, and it's gonna require you let a few things go that you've been holding on to. But if you let go of your numbers, I promise you, God's gonna give you life. That would be wonderful.

Amen. I'm just thinking about, Jesus's invitation, come to me all ye who are weak, burdened and heavy-weighted. Follow my way. And I think so often we think that invitation is for somebody else.

eerie

Yeah. Yes, that's right.

Yes, that's

we do follow that way of Jesus, which is the cross. It is that invitation to a way that is in the fullness ⁓ of life and that is lighter.

I'm gonna be lighter. Yes.

world

is not light, but it will be lighter.

Amen. Yes to the lighter.

Well, to that, Nicole, you know, we work with a number of congregations ⁓ that struggle with just this idea of perfectionism and this feeling that everything has to be flawless or they're failing ⁓ and church leaders who wrestle with perfectionism. And I'm curious what you would say to church leaders about how they might find freedom from that trap.

Well, as a recovering perfectionist myself, I am true confessions, you know, before our little quiet circle of confidentiality and all the world listening. ⁓ I have to recognize something that is very hard for me to recognize, and that is there is no such thing as perfect. It is a hard thing because I recognize in my life, I have confused excellence with perfection.

I am a

And I've confused excellence with obedience. And I've confused perfection and excellence and obedience with being with God. So to me, the best, in order for me to show up well, in order for me to hear those sacred words, well done, my good and faithful servant, then I have to always operate in excellence.

And the only way to only operate in excellence is to be fully 100 % obedient and to be perfect in everything. And if it falls short, then I need to beat my breast and say, ⁓ know, woe is me, I messed up. But that is not at all what Christ is calling us to. When Jesus says, perfect as I am perfect, he is talking about union. He's talking about connection. It goes back to our previous conversation about communion with God. Jesus is not calling us to be perfect in and of ourselves.

And this is where it attacks our savior complex. And again, true confessions, most people in ministry have a savior complex. We believe if I do this right, somebody might get saved. And if I do this wrong, somebody's going to hell. So I better do it right. There's so much unnecessary pressure. Jesus doesn't call us to be perfect, to preach the perfect sermon, to have the perfect words of condolences over a person who's lost a loved one. He's calling us to be in perfect union with him.

So what does it look like for us to replace this image of perfection with an image of perfect union with Christ? Because in those times, then maybe I won't confuse excellence with obedience. Maybe I'll just, I'll allow myself to be with God and allow whatever emerges to be part of God's redemptive plan. When I am so focused on perfection, I almost overlook God's redemption. And I forget that

beautiful text in Romans 828 that God allows all things to work together for our good. In my own paraphrase, I start to think it has to be good before God can work it. But no redemption suggests God works even that which is not good. And then I forget, yeah, that's me, because I'm not perfect as a person. So I am learning, again, as a recovering perfectionist, that God created me to be an earthen vessel.

so that the all surpassing power would be of God and not of me. I am learning that my imperfections as Paul boasts in his weaknesses actually give God glory. I'm learning that. I'm learning not to hide the times that I messed up. I'm learning to apologize more. I'm learning to say, I thought that this was the right way, but as we assessed all the details, there was a better way. And I want to apologize and own that. And now we're going to move forward. And I'm also learning that there's a

major appetite in the church for that type of leadership. People want authentic leaders who are willing to say, you know what, I didn't get that right. I thought I was hearing from God and really it may have been my own ego and I want to apologize for that. And I want to acknowledge to you that my dependence on God means I have to learn how to trust some other people. That's the kind of leadership I think the world needs and it's vulnerable.

And I know some pastors listening would say, if I ever said that to my congregation, I would lose my job. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? The soul of leadership, one that is crucified, means that we are willing to say we are actually imperfect creatures, and we're not going to hide that anymore.

So in so many ways, I think there are temptations for the church to try to gain the world and lose its soul right now. We see that happening all over the place. I wanna kind of circle back to something that you've touched on a bit in a few places in the conversation. And that is, we live now in this cultural moment where the traditional authority and deference that would have been given to someone holding the.

the office of pastor or leader or doctor or any role really in society, teacher, anything like that is now being eroded. And we have this culture where people are supposed to of ⁓ use institutions as platforms to promote themselves and gain a following and build their brand as you were talking about earlier. how does nailing it, how does this cruciform approach speak to that temptation?

And because I think there's probably a lot of leaders who are worried that even for their own livelihoods, like if I'm not pushing myself, if I'm not promoting myself in these ways, then I don't have a future.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I really think there's a way to hold authenticity and authority at the same time. And what I mean is, I gave two stories, I think this was in the chapter on ⁓ ego, and they came from experiences that I've had. Again, I was working in an institution that once had a ⁓ phrase, no logos, no egos. So we were doing a bunch of white labels.

And we were the power behind a bunch of other people's ministries, but no one knew it was us. And at the time we were thinking, this is the humble way. This is the approach to not be seen, to let no one know your name. Well, flash forward several years and we don't have that white label anymore because nobody knew it was us. No one knew that we were actually building these systems behind the scene because we were so intent on, no, no, don't let them know it's us. On the other hand,

You know, you have churches and pastors that put their names on billboards and their faces and say, I am the brand. I am the only reason why people come to this institution. Well, again, it's possible to hold two truths at one time. Yes, unfortunately, in the social media era, you will have to get on social media. You will have to get yourself out there. You will have to actually figure out what message God has given you to share with the world.

I think the difference here is the word stewardship. The difference is how do I steward the gifts that God has given me? Can you steward your gifts in this media age without ever being online? I would argue maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe stewardship today does look like stewarding your online presence in some way. And that is not being boastful or prideful.

That is stewarding the gifts that God has given you. There are others who need to say, am I stewarding my gifts, the gifts that God gave me, or am I stewarding my brand? And that's a totally different thing. If you're stewarding your brand, then you really are making it about you. But if you're stewarding the gifts that God has given you, then ultimately you're making it about God. And you know what the hardest part is? We could watch clips right now, and we wouldn't know the difference. It might look the same.

but the difference is going to be the motive of the heart. And I would say the heart motive is God can't get glory if nobody knows it was me. I used to pray when I was early in ministry, I used to pray a prayer that I had heard most of my life growing up right before would ⁓ preach or speak. It would be, Lord, hide me behind the cross. Let there be none of me and all of thee. And I would pray that prayer and I would...

I would literally say, like, Lord, just put a veil over my face so that nobody knows it's me and just let them hear voice of God. But that's not realistic because people do see you and you do exist and you do have a name and a life and God put you on this earth for a reason. So maybe the prayer is let the cross shine through me in a way that whatever gifts you're using would point back to the cross. That, I think, is good stewardship.

Well, Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today and for inviting us to see Jesus's way of leadership through the lens of the cross and for showing us how to meet people where they are with grace and truth.

Thank you both. This was fun.

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