Dr. Jeff Young is the founder of Planned Pethood International, but many know him as Dr. Jeff, Rocky Mountain Vet. His passion for helping animals and their caretakers as well as educating the next generation of veterinarians is clear. Join us for a 45-minute ride into many topics affecting pet care, affordability, and the veterinary profession. We discuss compassionate care, technician utilization and compensation, compassion fatigue, the human-animal bond, and why the veterinary field has shifted so much in the last decades. This is an episode for everyone, pet owners, advocates, and those in the profession.

If you enjoy our content and want to help us reach more animal advocates, please like, rate and share our episode. Together we make a big difference for animals everywhere.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today, we have a very special

guest from Colorado, Dr.

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Jeff Young, founder of Planned

Parenthood International.

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Welcome, Dr.

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Jeff.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Dr. Jeff Young: Thank you for

having me and hopefully we can

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have some good discussions today.

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DrG: I think so.

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I think we're very like

minded individuals.

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, but before we get started, how about

you let our listeners know about you?

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Where you started and what brought

you to where you are today?

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Dr. Jeff Young: Yeah, I've made a

lot of major changes in my life.

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When I went to vet school, I was a hunter

and fisherman and, um, and I, you know,

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my idea of a, of a, of a vegetable would

be a tomato and a triple hamburger.

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Uh, in vet school taught me a lot

about animals that I didn't know.

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And in the end, I also worked

animal control and it really

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changed my perspective on animals

and, and the planet in general.

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Um.

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I think work in animal control gave me a

real perspective on cruelty and neglect.

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So from the beginning at that time

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State University, we were killing

something like 24 to 26 million dogs

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and cats a year in this country.

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Now we're down to anywhere from 1

million to 4 to 6 million depending

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on who you want to believe.

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And I think a lot of animals

are euthanized at veterinary

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hospitals that aren't counted

because of economic euthanasia.

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But No question society's

become more sophisticated.

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We are aware of spay neuter.

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Uh, but in the end, I think the number

one issue with overpopulation comes back

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to finances more than anything else.

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So I think that's what's always driven me.

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Um, I ran a for profit for years.

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We always made money, but we always

were lower than everybody else.

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And because of the TV show, Dr.

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Jeff Rocky Mountain Vet.

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We started getting just inundated

with people from all over.

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So at that, at that point, it was like

three years ago, we became a hundred

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percent nonprofit, um, and it's been

harder as a nonprofit, quite frankly,

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as, as a for profit, in all honesty,

because everybody begs you all the time,

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you know, and you want to try to, and

I'm kind of a bleeding heart liberal,

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be honest, and I, you know, it's really

hard to say no to people, you know.

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Um, but we do our best and, uh,

we've moved up to Conifer, Colorado.

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We have, I have associated with

clinics all around the world.

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I've been to 46 countries, lectured

or done surgery in 46 countries.

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Um, so, and I, and I still think

teaching is the most important thing.

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This new facility we're in

is a, is basically a teaching

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hospital for vet students.

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Right now we have, uh, We've worked I

think with seven universities so far.

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They've sent us kids.

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Uh, Ohio State's going to be, I just

got a young lady coming up from Ohio

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State, um, next month I believe.

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That's my first Ohio State, uh, person.

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So, but, uh, I think if I can pass on

some kind of basic Hands on knowledge

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and get them to do some basic surgery.

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Cause surgery is surgery.

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I mean, you know, to get good,

everybody, I get people come in

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and want to be a great surgeon

while it takes time, you just don't

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become a good surgeon overnight.

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You know, some people have more

talent than others, but in the end,

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it's about handling tissue and it can

be repetitious as spay and neuter.

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At some point you just realize

you're a decent surgeon.

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And I really do believe that, you

know, and I don't know where it was

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for me, but at this point in my career.

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I'm not afraid of any soft tissue surgery.

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When I do, you know, PDAs and

persistent right aortic arches, uh,

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take lung lobes out, things like that.

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I mean, there's virtually nothing

soft tissue wise that scares me.

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Um, and that, but that just comes from

years of practice and doing surgery,

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you know, uh, so I feel very lucky and,

uh, animal planet was one of those two

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edged swords, you know, cause it, it

brought all this national attention,

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but, you know, the traditional vets

don't necessarily like what I do.

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Uh, and having said that.

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All these people came in from all

over and we really got inundated.

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It was hard to keep up, but, uh, uh, in

the end, I've always loved what I do.

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And my goal has always been to try to

help, especially like retired individuals,

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single moms, you know, the people in

society that really need the most help.

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And, uh, And that's what we're open for

and hopefully we can train some more

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vet students and get them interested in

the same thing, you know, and I will say

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I think there's been a shift, I think,

kind of, before COVID and kind of during

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COVID, most of the students were not that

interested in doing low cost or nonprofit

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stuff and I'm just in the last year or

so I'm having more and more students.

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You seem to be interested

in that, and we need that.

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We're short, as you know, we're

shorthanded, uh, so and really

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helping out people, I think

we can make a real difference.

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DrG: I 100 percent agree, and I'm so

glad that you're doing the education

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bit, because we have been doing a lot

of mentorships and externships as well,

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because you have to give these students

like they're hungry for education, right?

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Like they just got into vet school.

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It's the perfect time to get

them in and to get them excited

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when they, when there's really

still in the exciting phase.

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And, and yeah, teaching them what's

available and what's out there.

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I think one of the things that,

you know, I too love what I do.

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I love my job.

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There isn't one day that I

I wish I was something else.

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And I think part of that is that I

am doing something that benefits the

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community and everything, but also makes

me feel better about what I'm doing.

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Right.

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And, and I think that a lot of the

problems that we're having right now

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with compassion fatigue and such.

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Come about from people say no, that

they can't afford something, having to

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euthanize their animals because they don't

have any, any money, uh, just there's

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not that, that excitement in general

practice as it has kind of become, right?

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So I think that that if we can get these

students motivated and, and empower

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them to do community service, basically,

that it's going to make them feel

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better and potentially decrease that

compassion fatigue that they're feeling.

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No,

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Dr. Jeff Young: I think part of the

problem is, and it's been a gradual

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thing, but veterinarians have never

been necessarily rich per se, but we've

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always had made a good living and we were

very well respected in the community.

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And I've seen that just go down the tubes

in that, you know, most people say, well,

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just in it for the money, you know, um,

and part of that is to say Wall Street and

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I'm, I'm a red, white and blue American.

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I believe in competition, but

when you get Wall Street involved.

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You know, and, and basically something

like 70 percent of private practices

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now are, is owned by big companies, you

know, and the problem with that is the

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moment you do that, well, your, your

shareholders want money, you know, and

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you have a tier system of bureaucrats

when you said the vets, they're working.

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So all of a sudden you have to double,

triple, quadruple your price to be able

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to make those profit margins, you know,

and, and, you know, just assume for

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a second they're in it for the money.

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And I understand that there's

nothing wrong with making money.

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But at the same time, we've just

gone so far overboard with it.

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You know what I mean?

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Once, once wall street figured out

that vets are great investments and

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there's always going to be money there.

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Um, the question is, will

there always be money there?

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Because we're basically pricing

ourselves right out of the

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market, you know, and we're really

catering, if you look at the last.

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three decades, we actually serve a

smaller percentage of animals in America.

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There's more animals in America.

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Don't get me wrong.

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And that's, that's our busy,

but we actually serve a smaller

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percentage than we ever have, you

know, which makes no sense to me.

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Um, because this is the richest

nation on earth and we have all these

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talented people out there, but yet

we're turning people away because they

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just can't afford things, you know,

and it just seems to me to be criminal.

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DrG: Yeah, I have seen that as well.

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And it's kind of that idea of, well, we

can raise the price and we're going to

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lose some clients, but the ones that stay

are going to be able to make us money.

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And that's kind of a

bad mentality to have.

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We want to help the many

rather than the few.

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At least I know that I do.

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And I am sure that you do as well.

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Like we, we have this, this gift

of being able to help animals.

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So why not help as many as

we can rather than limiting

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ourselves to six patients a day?

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Dr. Jeff Young: I don't want to be so

jaded to where I believe students don't

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care, people, the graduates or people

that are out there in practice don't

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care, necessarily care about animals.

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But you know, that's not a

requirement to get in vet school.

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And the reality of it is, you know, we're,

we're selected because we're kind of

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science oriented and I kind of get that.

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Uh, I think the one thing that's

driven compassion into, a little

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bit of compassion that's in the

veterinary industry is, is when

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89, my class was the first class

to have more, Or females and males.

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And as we have more and more females

come into the profession or more

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compassion has come into the profession.

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Um, but as you say, you know, like

if, if so many of the main, the

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big facilities are owned by men or

corporations, as the young women come in.

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They're having to send animals away, or

they're having to euthanize animals, and

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that's, you know, that just drives you, I

mean, if they have any compassion at all,

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well, think what that does to the soul,

you know, uh, and I understand why people

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get burned out, or commit suicide, or,

you know, go turn to drugs, or drinking,

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you know, uh, because this, this is, this

is a hard profession right now, and, uh,

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I don't know, it's kept me sane, quite

frankly, for the last 34 years, other

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than I just, I've always believed in what

I'm doing, you know, and I think that's

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the key, you have to find something

you truly believe in, and like you say,

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you're connecting with your community,

um, you know, and you're connecting

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with people, and, and the animals, and,

and I don't, I don't, I don't know, I

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just can't imagine a better life, in

all honesty, there's a lot of sadness

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in it too, don't get me wrong, but, you

know, I feel like we do our part to try

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to make as much happiness as we can.

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Thank you.

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Yeah,

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DrG: it, and, and it's also

about surrounding ourselves by

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like-minded individuals, right?

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'cause I have technicians that have

been with me for a really long time

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because this is not a job, right?

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A job, right?

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They can get a job anywhere.

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But this is more like a, a mission

and everybody, we're all so

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tired at the end of every day.

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And we're doing, you know, we, we go

out on our trucks, we drive about an

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hour and a half, two hours to these

locations, do 30 to 50 surgeries,

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and then have the same drive back.

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So we are physically exhausted, but

mentally feeling so great about it.

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Right?

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So I think that that, that makes

all the difference in the world,

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you know, and, and then we also have

to pay our, our employees properly

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because we cannot expect people

to do this much work for free.

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I mean, there has to be, there has to be

compensation for people that are, that

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are doing so well and doing so much.

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Um, you know, and, and also like

technician utilization, I would like to

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get your, your thoughts on it because

I utilize my technicians to the top of

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their license, like they, without them,

I could only do maybe 10 or 15 surgeries,

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but with them, I can do so much.

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So what are your thoughts on, on

the kind of like the, the, the

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technicians that are leaving the field

because they're just not utilized or

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compensated as well as they should.

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Dr. Jeff Young: They're not

compensated and they're burned out.

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Once again, they see it too.

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I've had a couple of technician

people, uh, leave and come back

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because, you know, they made me make

a little bit more money somewhere

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else, but they realized that there's

no satisfaction in their job there.

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You know, it's just, it's, you know, it's.

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Bring an animal in, make as much

money as you can and send it out.

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And that's it, you know,

and there's no purpose.

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Um, and I, I do think it's

important to pay a livable wage.

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I've always said that.

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And, um, you know, I've always been

associated with humane groups and stuff.

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And I've always complained about, you

know, like, well, you, the people come

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in and clean these cages and do all

this work and you're paying them 1.

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95 an hour, you know, and you

can't figure out why you can't

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keep them or, you know, why they

get, they get frustrated, you know?

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So I think paying a livable

wage is really important.

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Um, and I think letting your techs

reached out to the very end of

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their abilities in terms of what's

legal for them in any given state.

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I think every state is different.

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In some states allow techs

to do more, some less.

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But you know, I, I believe,

I personally think we should

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have spay and neuter techs.

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You know, I think we should

be able to train them.

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We don't have that here in Colorado.

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But, you know, they actually, I think

they were talking about doing something

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like that and something like over 60

percent of vets thought it was a good

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idea, but then they voted it down because

they were afraid of the competition,

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you know, but if it's still under, you

know, under a vet's supervision, you

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know, as a vet student, as a freshman in

vet school, you can come in pretty much

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do any surgery if I'm on the premise.

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You know, but if you're a tech that's

worked with me for 20 years, you can't,

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you know, um, and I don't know, you

know, does that make any sense to you?

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Well, you don't open that whole

door, but if it's just spay neuter,

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you limit to certain things.

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You can make a real difference

with society and make a difference

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in those people's lives.

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And I just think it's it's it's better

for for our profession overall, you know,

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but uh, Yeah, the powers that be would

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DrG: disagree.

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I 100 percent agree with that as well.

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And I talk about that with my

technicians because I have at least two

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technicians that would be very willing

to learn how to do spays and neuters.

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And I know that they're

very intelligent people.

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It's not like they went into tech

school because they're they're not

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smart enough to go to vet school.

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They went into tech school because

that's what they wanted to do.

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And yeah, it would be amazing

if, yeah, under my supervision

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under my care while I'm there.

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If they were allowed to do some

minor procedures, some spays and

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neuters, that way I am there.

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So if they get into a bind, just

like a vet student, I have to be

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present for them to do surgeries.

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Same, same kind of thing.

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And you know, I hear a lot about this

competition stuff, but The number of

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animals that need to see a vet and

need to be sterilized, that right there

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tells you that there's not going to be

any competition for a really long time.

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Like we need to get our minds out of

the whole competition idea and focus on

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what's important, which is the animals.

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Dr. Jeff Young: Well, I think we talk

about competition all the time, but we're,

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as a profession, we're the first to try to

squash it, you know, and make it go away

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because we don't really want competition.

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You know, we want to have

our cake and eat it too.

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And as they're out today, they

try to pass a bill in Colorado

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that said, Dogs and cats are a

special type of personal property.

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And if you malpractice, you

could be, you could, you could

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have to pay up to 10, 000.

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I, I, you know, that's a good idea.

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It seems fair enough.

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And if I screw up, it's

my legitimate mistake.

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And the people can, you know,

they have that connection.

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If I have to pay some money, so be it,

you know, um, man, the vet profession

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came out, they squished that so fast, you

know, at the same time, the same people.

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I had a cat come in that was

quoted 20, 000 for an Explorer.

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Um, you know, I had a, it was, I did

an anal gland removal that was quoted

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8, 000 for an anal gland removal.

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I mean, just crazy.

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You know, so like if we're that

worth that much, if you screw up, why

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shouldn't you have to pay that much?

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Or at least some of that, you

know, but once again, we don't,

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we want our cake and eat it too.

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You know, I just personal property.

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They have no value, you know, because

they're just personal property, like

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a TV, which is what the law says

across America, pretty much, you know.

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Um, And it's like, well, they're

really not just personal property,

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they're kind of special personal

property, if anything, you know, so,

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DrG: yeah, no, yeah, I'm, I'm

currently studying animal law at

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Lewis and Clark, a master's in

animal law for non law students.

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And the concept of animals as

living property comes up, right?

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Because there's a lot of, a lot of,

uh, issues between animal welfare and

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animal rights and what's correct and

what's not, but yeah, it comes back to

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animals are just considered property.

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In the eyes of the law, just like a

TV or a microwave, yet veterinarians

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and technicians are very tied up into

what we can and cannot do at times.

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And, uh, and there were precautions

for doing something wrong.

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So there's a huge disconnect

there as well, as far as what's

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allowed and what's not allowed.

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Dr. Jeff Young: Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty

sure I could, I can work on my own

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TV and my own toaster if I want to.

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Now I might electrocute myself

and die, but that's on me, right?

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And I have to say, technically

in Colorado, you know, you can

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do surgery on your own animal,

you know, and that's not illegal.

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Now, you may not have the drugs for it,

things like that, but if you had the drugs

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and access to it, you could legally do

it, whether you knew what you're doing or

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not, that would be legal for you to do.

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And that comes over from the large animal

side as much as anything, because, you

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know, let's face it, vets aren't doing

a lot of dehorning and castrations out

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there on the farms anymore, you know.

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They have technicians and other people,

just the ranchers, the owners, you

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know, and it's not rocket science

in the end, let's face it, you know.

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A lot of things we do, I get pretty much

to each monkey to do in all honesty.

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DrG: Now, speaking of that,

we have standards of care.

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And one of the issues that I have with

my vet students is that everything that

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they want to do is gold standard of care.

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So what are you know, and we try to

explain to them about, yeah, gold

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standard is we should be able to offer

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clients, everything, all their

options, because we should never

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assume what they can and cannot do

or what they can and cannot afford.

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But this, this idea of gold standard

of care, uh, I think that it's actually

321

creating more of a problem in animals not

getting any, any care or any treatment.

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And making owners feel bad because

they're not doing what they, what

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they're being told is right for their

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Dr. Jeff Young: pets.

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We're trying to, we try to guilt them

into it, you know, and you're right.

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It's just, it's the gold standard.

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And, and, uh, as you say, the problem

is, look, you can take a Volkswagen or

328

you can take a Mercedes Benz to the prom,

but they both get you to the prom and

329

that's the point, you know, uh, I do, I

do believe in informed consent, you know,

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when people bring an animal to me to do,

you know, like my first heart surgery,

331

I said, look, I'm not a specialist.

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I've never done this before.

333

You know, it's a good chance

your animal's going to die.

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Yeah.

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Uh, there was a single mom with a puppy

that, uh, actually had a persistent

336

aortic right, uh, aortic arch.

337

Um, and I did it right before Christmas.

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It was successful.

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I got a nice Christmas card from

the little boy it was attached

340

to, you know, and I got a hundred

dollars for surgery, you know.

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So,

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DrG: you know, and that's

what it's all about right

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Dr. Jeff Young: there.

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Well, that's the point.

345

Nothing could, you know, I mean, I

would, I would, I would have paid

346

them to do it quite frankly, you know,

but yeah, that's informed consent.

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But if it would have died, you

know, and it didn't knock on would

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have been pretty lucky that way.

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I mean, I do some pretty crazy

surgeries and I pull them out.

350

I've had, I've actually had.

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Animal come out from Ohio State

that was kicked in the head and

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had some bone pieces and they'd

done CTs and everything else.

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And I just went in and pulled all the

bone pieces, put a mesh in and it was

354

done fine ever since, you know, they

recorded, you know, tens of thousands of

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dollars to do the same thing, essentially.

356

So I, you know, I don't know, you know,

like I'm going to give it my best shot.

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You have to understand

that that's what I'm doing.

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Give it my best shot.

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I've never done this before.

360

And that's informed consent.

361

And I think, you know, our profession,

they kind of lean that way towards

362

informed consent, but they really want

to make that standard so high that,

363

you know, I mean, the alternative

is to put the animal to sleep.

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And I don't understand that.

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How's that an

366

DrG: alternative?

367

Or poor quality of care, right?

368

For them to just go on suffering,

depending on what they have.

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Dr. Jeff Young: Yeah, people take their

animals home and they have to suffer

370

slow, miserable deaths or have horrible

mouth infections and stuff like, I

371

don't know, like how I know as an owner,

I don't know how you live with that.

372

But then as a veterinarian sending

them out the door, I don't know

373

how you live with that either.

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Yeah.

375

DrG: And again, then

that comes back to that.

376

You know, compassion fatigue of, you know,

the dog is suffering and you're sending it

377

out the door with this rotted mouth, you

know, that it can't eat, or you euthanize

378

an animal for something that's completely

treatable just because the person cannot.

379

And sometimes we have to euthanize and it

doesn't mean that we can fix everything.

380

But, but just making it so that

euthanasia is not an option due to cost.

381

It's an option because it is an option.

382

It's on the table.

383

But, you know, taken

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Dr. Jeff Young: away.

385

I've always said there's many things

worse than death and there are, you know,

386

so I, I don't believe in euthanizing

animals that I can fix and have a good

387

quality of life for, and I won't do it.

388

That's what shelters are for.

389

If they, you know, they want to take

it to a kill shelter or something,

390

but I won't, I won't do it.

391

I just think it's unethical,

you know, and I'll do my best.

392

I mean, I'd rather have them

sign the animal over to me if

393

they want to put no money in it.

394

Fix it and find it a new home.

395

And that's what we offer people,

you know, that, that are like that.

396

And it's not everybody, not everybody

likes their animals as much as

397

I like mine or you like yours.

398

And that's, you know, and

it's not just finances there.

399

That's just, you know, the

difference in human beings.

400

And, and, and I don't, I can't

say I respect it, but I don't,

401

you know, I don't necessarily.

402

Look down on those people.

403

I just think there's

something wrong with them.

404

You know, they're they're

somewhere they got along in life.

405

They got bent a little

bit and uh, I feel sorry.

406

My dog Fred means the world to me,

you know, and I have to say with

407

seven grandchildren, if they're all

hanging on the cliff and Fred was

408

there, I'm not sure who I'd grab first.

409

I always wonder sometimes.

410

I might just step on their

fingers and let them go.

411

That's another story.

412

DrG: So, um, one of the things

that we were discussing before

413

we started recording was as

far as income requirements.

414

Like, I don't have income

requirements and you don't either.

415

So can you explain to our listeners

what your thoughts are on that and why

416

you don't have income requirements?

417

Yeah.

418

I've taken

419

Dr. Jeff Young: a lot of flak from the

veterinary profession for not having an

420

income requirement, but in the end, the

people that come to me, in one sense,

421

they've put a certain value on, many times

they put a certain value on their animals.

422

It doesn't matter how much money you have.

423

If you're only going to spend 1.

424

95, you can be a

millionaire or billionaire.

425

But I also, more than anything, when

you do have truly poor people whose

426

animals, an integral part of say their

children's life or their life, you

427

know, to make them fill out forms,

uh, to prove that they're poor.

428

To me, it's just degrading

and make, and it's, I don't,

429

I just don't think it's right.

430

I think it's immoral and I

think it's degrading and I don't

431

think you make people like that.

432

The people like poor people make poor

decisions and they get stepped on all

433

the time in our society and they're

blamed for so many ridiculous things.

434

Um, I just don't want to be one of those

people and I'll have great compassion for.

435

For poor people and I've never been poor

per se in my life, but I've, you know,

436

other than, I mean, when you go to school

and things like that, but you've chosen

437

that life, you know, so, um, but I've

been around poverty a lot, you know,

438

and, um, you know, I, I don't know.

439

I just, uh, I don't, I don't

want to be that person to be

440

that judgmental and, and, and it

goes back to just to religious.

441

point of view to some degree, too.

442

You know what I mean?

443

I'm a big fan of the Sermon on the

Mount, you know, and I just don't think

444

it's my place to be judging people.

445

My place is here to help, help the

animal, which helps the people.

446

It's all combined together to me.

447

DrG: Yeah, I have, you know, I believe

in the human, the importance of the

448

human animal bond and the importance

that animals have as emotional support.

449

And I think that underserved

communities, homeless individuals,

450

just people experiencing struggles

need those animals probably even more

451

than those people who are better off.

452

Like, those animals are truly a

source of support and companionship.

453

And who are we to tell them, no,

you're too poor, so you can't

454

have that animal, first of all.

455

Second of all, The

shelters are overcrowded.

456

There's animal

overpopulation is ridiculous.

457

So how about having them be in a home

that is that where they're loved and

458

then helping support those individuals

so they're giving animals a good

459

quality of life in a loving home.

460

Dr. Jeff Young: I've had the

luxury of working with Dogs

461

Trust which is a great website.

462

You should look at Dogs Trust out of

the UK and Cat Protection out of the UK.

463

Cat Protection is definitely the world's

leaders in cats when it comes down to it.

464

But you know they In their

facilities in the UK.

465

Now, once again, they're probably

worth a billion dollars on paper.

466

So, you know, they're not like it's a

cheap organization, but they have 19, 20

467

facilities, but they all have a vet, they

all have a trainer, uh, they all have a

468

behaviorist, you know, and, and, you know,

like some of our biggest humane societies

469

in the States don't have a behavior

or trainer in, you know, 50, something

470

like 50 percent of the animals end up in

shelters for behavior issues, you know?

471

Uh, so why don't we, you

know, we're just like.

472

Barbarians that we were just behind

the times, you know, if we can correct

473

the problem, get the animal back in

the same household that came out of,

474

why would we take it in potentially

have to euthanize it or even go through

475

the process of finding a new home?

476

Makes no sense to me.

477

Uh, you know, we keep building bigger

and bigger, nicer, nicer shelters.

478

Um, but for what?

479

You know, it's like the goal

is to put yourself out of

480

business, you know, not become.

481

I've become a revolving door, you know,

and that's why I've always looked at, you

482

know, what I've done, you know, it's like,

you know, uh, people say, well, why don't

483

you just pay neutral to all the animals?

484

There'll be no animals, you know,

like that's never going to happen.

485

You

486

DrG: know, it's not going to happen.

487

Dr. Jeff Young: So I said, I got a

lot, I got really good job security.

488

I'm pretty sure that.

489

You know, but an underserved area is

something like 77 percent of animals

490

never make it to a veterinary and

never see a veterinarian in their life.

491

And up to 87 percent are never

fixed, you know, where we live in a

492

society where something like what,

90 percent of dogs are fixed over 90

493

percent of dogs and over 80 percent

of cats are fixed in America that are

494

owned, which is really high number.

495

But yet many of those have a litter

before they're fixed and things like that.

496

So education and the biggest reason

people don't get animals fixed is price.

497

It's price points, plain and

simple, comes back to money.

498

Yeah,

499

DrG: and and it's kind of a combination of

like affordability and then accessibility

500

because there are people that live in

secluded areas in rural areas, right?

501

And they just don't have they may be able

to afford it But they just can't get to

502

the vet and we think about you know having

to to drive two hours to get to a vet

503

Not many people are able to to do that.

504

So we have to think about you know, people

are not always Not taking proper care

505

of their animals because they don't want

to sometimes they they literally can't.

506

We have we think about like

individuals that are maybe handicapped

507

elderly that physically can't

can't take them out and just being

508

able to being able to assist them.

509

Dr. Jeff Young: No, that's a big issue

and and I think of the number of vet

510

schools throughout the nation like

CSU, which I think is one of the best

511

schools, you know, in the world but they

send their students to Montana on the

512

reservations or they go down to Mexico.

513

So, like, why not.

514

Just go over on the poor side of Colorado,

you know, there's all kinds of people

515

over there small community I go on the

Eastern Plains and these small towns

516

and set up and do 50 to 100 animals a

day Yeah, you know and there's a demand

517

for that all the time So like, you

know, but everybody it comes back to

518

state boards and everybody being afraid

of being sued, you know And and it's

519

like look You guys should be in charge.

520

You're leaders in this field.

521

So instead of, you know, they have

a, right now they're connected with

522

one of the big humane organizations.

523

And I think it's an all hospital hospital

there, but they don't do anything, you

524

know, like they're not open on weekends at

five o'clock, all the parvo animals, they

525

kick out, they have to find places to go.

526

If they didn't explore, they send it out.

527

I've had three explorers go out that I

know of that have died from that place

528

because they were not, you know, followed

up on it, taken care of properly,

529

you know, and that's considered you.

530

a standard of care, you know,

but they get away with it because

531

they have the connections.

532

I, I don't get it at all.

533

And it's really disturbing to me,

you know, that we should, we could

534

do so much more in our own backyard.

535

Uh, and we just don't.

536

DrG: Yeah, I think that teaching this,

again, it comes back to the students.

537

I, I don't know how much we can

change the minds of people that are

538

already out there and practicing

that have gotten used to certain ways

539

of living and practicing and stuff.

540

But that's where I feel that, you

know, helping the students learn and,

541

and engage in community service so

that they, they want to give back.

542

Because we, we look as well as, as far

as back to the concept of accessibility.

543

The rural areas don't have veterinarians,

but I don't feel like the vet schools

544

are getting kids that are in rural areas.

545

And it's, and to me,

it's really simple math.

546

It's you have a kid that,

that grows up in a rural area.

547

What do they grow up to be?

548

They grow up to be what they see.

549

Well, there's no veterinarians around.

550

They don't grow up working in veterinary

clinics or, you know, helping with

551

animals and doing that kind of stuff.

552

So they don't have a

role model to look up to.

553

So those kids, I don't feel that they're

necessarily applying to vet school.

554

So the kids that are applying to

vet school, do they want to graduate

555

and then go work in rural Ohio?

556

For making less than what they

can make in a corporate clinic

557

with bonuses and everything else.

558

The answer is no, right?

559

So I think that we have to, we have to

figure out ways, like, think outside

560

the box to look for ways to engage

the students and hopefully other

561

veterinarians that are getting tired of

general practice, corporate veterinary

562

medicine to practice in these areas.

563

And part of it is we have to figure

out how to properly compensate them so

564

that they can go to, to those places.

565

Um, because yeah, I mean,

the, the need is great.

566

And I just think that, you know,

we, there are ways of helping the

567

veterinary shortage, you know, we have

to increase the number of veterinarians

568

and hopefully the, the ability of

the technicians to do more stuff.

569

But we also have to figure out ways

to rework our current structure.

570

Dr. Jeff Young: No, and you're

right, you do have to target, you

571

know, find the bad areas and target

those areas, you know, uh, Dr.

572

Bushby with the Mississippi State, they go

out and they go to the rural environment,

573

but, you know, that's one bus or, you

know, a group of kids and you can only do

574

so much, you know, when you're training

and stuff, and that's reality, we need

575

people that are like you, like me, that

can do the numbers and get out and try to

576

make a difference in areas, but, you know,

like, there's only so many hours in a day,

577

it's just, it seems overwhelming at times.

578

Thank you.

579

Um, but it's not.

580

I mean, you know, the mere fact we're

not, we're, there's probably 20 million

581

animals a year we're not killing right

now, which is a real positive thing.

582

But, you know, you look at the

top, say, 10 humane societies in

583

America, and they're worth well

over a billion dollars all combined.

584

But how many spay neuter

clinics are they opening?

585

You know, the, the pet industry is

a 60 billion industry, and it goes

586

up a couple billion every year.

587

I saw obviously probably

a little dip during COVID.

588

I don't know.

589

Um, but in the end, there's

plenty of money out there.

590

So it's not a lack of funds, you know,

it's a lack of desire and lack of, you

591

know, thinking outside the box and wanting

to make a difference, you know, um, they

592

really are trying to teach the students

to come out and follow the party line.

593

And, um, you know, make you

make your millions, I guess.

594

I don't know.

595

Money is a short term motivator.

596

Now, I feel sorry for the kids

coming out that have two or three

597

hundred thousand dollars in debt.

598

Um, and that has to be

dealt with without a doubt.

599

But, you know, that, that's, uh,

that's not just a veterinary thing.

600

That's across the America thing.

601

You know, college just got out of control.

602

Um, but in the end, you know,

I just feel like we can do so

603

much more than what we're doing.

604

DrG: Yeah.

605

And I think that's where, again, like

mentorship, uh, Mentorship opportunities

606

and teaching, like what you're doing, what

we're doing, just so that these students

607

can graduate and be practice ready.

608

Because a lot of these veterinary

students graduate and they're licensed

609

to do surgery, but they have no idea what

they're doing because their experience

610

with surgery is like one spay that they

spend three and a half hours doing, right?

611

So they, they're.

612

Uh, their abilities, you know, we

have to, to do better as far as

613

teaching them so that they can, they

can graduate confident and efficient.

614

I tell all these students doing

50 surgeries in a day is not

615

rushing through the surgeries.

616

Doing a lot of surgeries in a day

is about being efficient and being

617

efficient is so good because the animals

under anesthesia less amount of time.

618

So they don't have as much risk with that.

619

Their temperatures don't go down as much.

620

Their incisions are not as big.

621

They're not uncomfortable.

622

And then the client comes in and picks

up a pet with a one centimeter incision.

623

And they're so happy to see it as

opposed to, you know, you come in and

624

like, actually the other day was, yes,

was talking about the 10 centimeter

625

incision in the 15 centimeter dog.

626

So being able to learn to do that,

because then what we're seeing here,

627

and I don't know if you're experiencing

that as well, is that people are

628

finding it easier to get small

animals and cats and small animals.

629

Fixed, but not the large dogs, especially

the large female dogs, because there's

630

not the, the ability to do that.

631

But then we have some veterinarians that

are teaching people to wait until their

632

large breed dogs are 150 pounds before

they fix it, because if not, they're

633

going to have orthopedic problems.

634

So then we're telling people, let

your dog get to be over 100 pounds.

635

So you can fix it, but then when it gets

that big, well, we can't fix it anymore.

636

Dr. Jeff Young: Yeah, yeah,

not are they're too old.

637

You know, I like that one

is a six year old dog.

638

That's too old to fix.

639

It's like, no, it's not too old to fix.

640

And then I'm a power meet you right now.

641

And I probably will next year.

642

You know, it's like, I don't.

643

So some of the stuff I've

seen just curls my hair.

644

But I also get.

645

You know, when I watched some of these

students, like, you know, if it's going

646

to take you three or four hours to do

a surgery and you got to do IVs and all

647

that kind of stuff for a routine, what

I would consider routine space should

648

take more than 20 minutes, you know, on

a bad day for a big dog, then like, I

649

get it why they got to charge so much,

you know, they're losing their ass.

650

DrG: Right.

651

No, and that's what I try to explain

to people because, you know, because of

652

how low we charge, a lot of people say,

well, how are you charging this low?

653

And my regular bed is charging a lot more.

654

And I tell them, it's

all about efficiency.

655

It's all, it's about overhead as well.

656

I have less overhead as a mobile

practice than a stationary practice.

657

But if I can do 30 surgeries,

I can clearly Charge less than

658

somebody who is only doing five

or six surgeries in a day, right?

659

And, and they may not be doing only

five surgeries because they don't

660

want to do more than that is because

physically they're unable to do it.

661

So that's why I think that the, the

additional training for, for students,

662

you know, if more veterinarians

would take in students and teach

663

them rather than just having them

come in and, you know, go do vaccines

664

because that's all you know how to do.

665

And never really train them and

empower them, then we're not gonna.

666

Move ahead, right?

667

What, what is your...

668

Now you

669

Dr. Jeff Young: can do

vaccines and anal glands.

670

DrG: Right, yeah, and the

occasional ear infection.

671

Yeah, exactly.

672

So, what are, what are your thoughts

as far as age of sterilization?

673

Like, what are your requirements for

age of sterilization at your clinic?

674

I

675

Dr. Jeff Young: gotta have a heartbeat.

676

That's pretty much my requirement.

677

Now, I, you know, obviously,

I'm fixed by five months.

678

Esther Mechler is like a second mom to me.

679

She's an amazing human being.

680

And, you know, she does the fixed by five.

681

They got the AVMAs on board with that.

682

So that's for cats, alright?

683

So that's by five months.

684

Um, I say fixed by five, I

mean five weeks in my mind.

685

So I go down to five, if I'm

traveling to reservations, places

686

like that, we go down to five

weeks, you know, uh, pretty readily.

687

Obviously, if you have an owned animal

and dealing with a client, well, it

688

makes more sense to go through and

get all the vaccines, have the last

689

one at 16 weeks and get them before

they get to be five months, you know.

690

Um, I'm going to be doing

a lecture real soon.

691

I've done it in the past, but it's

basically on, you know, uh, Why we

692

spay neuter, when to spay neuter,

and the controversy of spay neuter,

693

you know, and then a lot of stuff's

come out of UC Davis, as you may

694

have read about different things, but

they're really, it's very bad science.

695

And there's a real difference

between correlation versus causation.

696

But you know, if you look like the

697

did 460, 000 cats and what was it 2.

698

2 million dogs.

699

In the end, the conclusion

was fixed animals live longer.

700

Okay, fixed animals get more cancer.

701

Well, they live longer.

702

Humans live longer.

703

They get more cancer, too.

704

You know, if you're living two or three

years longer, and when you consider it's

705

supposed to be seven years for one, that's

like 20 years longer than you're living.

706

If you're 60 to 80, well, you're probably

going to get cancer in there, you know?

707

So, uh, I mean, a lot of the, a

lot of the literature is not good

708

science is what it boils down to.

709

And there's probably some things

that may be somewhat realistic, you

710

know, hip dysplasia, maybe more of

a problem with giant breed dogs.

711

But if you look at all the specific

things they name, most of it has

712

to do with breed, you know, like,

if you think osteosarcoma, what's

713

the first breed that comes to mind?

714

A Rottweiler, you know,

well, you know, so.

715

Have we bred that gene into them to

make them more susceptible to that?

716

So instead of maybe not spaying it till

it's a certain age, maybe we should figure

717

out and breed that gene back out of it.

718

So it doesn't ever get osteosarc, you

know, or make it a lot less likely.

719

So, but you know, we don't, we don't

spend our time energy on that, you

720

know, so I don't know, you know, it's,

uh, I, I'm still a believer in spay,

721

neuter, every longevity study that's ever

been done says that fixed animals live

722

longer, you know, three to five years

longer for cats, one to three on dogs.

723

I'll take that every time with my dog.

724

So, and if I have to do a knee

surgery, I'm "so what?", I'd rather

725

do the knee surgery for three

years and I'll, I'm okay with that.

726

DrG: Oh yeah.

727

And I interviewed Dr.

728

Bushby for the podcast because

I wanted to break down all the

729

research, all that UC Davis research.

730

Because that's what everybody

is always like citing.

731

And we went over all the

biases and everything else.

732

And I told him, you know, yeah,

I had a Great Dane and I spayed

733

her about five months because

I wanted to do a pexy as well.

734

So I waited until she was five months

old, spayed her and had a pexy.

735

And she did die of an osteosarcoma.

736

However, she was 13 years old.

737

So you know

738

Dr. Jeff Young: what?

739

Exactly.

740

That's a, that's an old great Dane.

741

Yes.

742

DrG: Exactly.

743

And it's like, you know, animals

have to pass away from something.

744

So whether they're, they're

dying at eight or they're dying

745

at 15, there's something there.

746

So yeah, we have to take

into consideration the

747

correlation and causation.

748

The other thing is that people say, Oh,

well, I don't want to spay or neuter

749

my dog because it's going to get fat.

750

You know how many fat dogs.

751

That are five plus years old.

752

I spay regularly.

753

Oh yeah.

754

It's not just, you know, being intact

doesn't mean that your dog's not going to

755

Dr. Jeff Young: get fat.

756

I hate to say it.

757

We live in a country.

758

I had people come in.

759

They're grossly obese

with a grossly obese dog.

760

They clearly feed all the time.

761

And they say, yeah, I don't want to spay

her because you're going to get fat.

762

And I think, God, are you fixed?

763

So you got spayed?

764

You know, cause I mean, like.

765

You know, I mean, because in

the end, there's, there's,

766

it's real, it's real plain.

767

It's how much exercise you

get, how much food you eat.

768

Those, I mean, we want the

magic pill and all that.

769

And I understand some people are

more genetically prone, but I, I've

770

coached distance running and I've had

kids that come in high school that

771

are just obese and they've worked

out with me and they've lost 80 to

772

a hundred pounds in high school.

773

And I know one kid has been

out for like almost 10 years.

774

He's still running and you, you know,

like he's, he's not thin by any means,

775

but he's not obese anymore either.

776

He's fit, you know, and you can be.

777

Thick and still be fit.

778

You know, you don't have to be obese.

779

It's the same thing with our animals.

780

They don't have to be obese.

781

You know, they can be

a little bit thicker.

782

Rottweiler is going to be a little

thicker than a Chihuahua, you know,

783

but you know, I mean, we basically have

Ottomans that come in here like, you know,

784

like all they are just square tables.

785

And I mean, that's just overfeeding

and no exercise, plain and simple.

786

And that has nothing

to do with being fixed.

787

Not, you know, in those studies

that look at being fixed.

788

Okay.

789

What?

790

They don't do background.

791

Okay, there's a difference

with intact male.

792

It's on a chain and outside

that may get fed once a day.

793

It may not.

794

And a dog is sleeping on your

bed, you know, it's getting extra

795

food and table scraps, you know?

796

So, uh, a lot of it, it's

our own doing, let's face it.

797

You know, we, we like to share our food.

798

DrG: Right.

799

Exactly.

800

And I mean, I, I always, I'll tell

people we have an option, right?

801

If we are overweight, we have an option

to go to the fridge and feed ourselves.

802

But for our animals to be

overweight, we do that to them.

803

It's the whole killing them with,

with love, you know, because yeah,

804

this morning I was eating and my cat

is like right in my face asking me

805

for, for food and sadly for my cats.

806

I have a very, like, I, I don't give

in, so they just, uh, you know, they

807

don't get, they don't get table scraps,

so my cats were, uh, spayed, neutered,

808

I have a boy and a girl, and they were

done very, very early on, and they're

809

not overweight, they're not obese,

because their weight is, is managed,

810

but I also, you know, they get, they

exercise within the house and that kind

811

of stuff, like we have to, you know.

812

We have to do, do better by them rather

than looking for the, for the easy fix

813

or the, or the easy quick pill, right?

814

I've always

815

Dr. Jeff Young: had fixed animals and

none of my animals are overweight.

816

My, you know, you can look at my golden

Fred and he goes out for two, three,

817

four hour hikes with, with Petra, Dr.

818

Petra all the time.

819

I mean, you know, and he gets fed

really well, but we just don't

820

overfeed him, you know, and we make

sure he gets the proper exercise.

821

And it's, it's not rocket science,

you know, um, but everybody wants

822

the easy fix and there's no easy fix.

823

Well, at least not yet that I'm aware of.

824

Right.

825

DrG: So, what are going to be the,

the most common things that you see

826

at your practice that, that come in?

827

Dr. Jeff Young: Uh, we do a lot

of knees, a lot of FHOs, but you

828

know, spay neuter, we have our

spay neuter day every Wednesday.

829

We do spay neuter pretty much every day,

but that's our spay neuter day period.

830

But we do right now, because we're

30 minutes outside of Denver, we're

831

not down, down in Denver anymore.

832

Um, We're getting a lot of Explorers,

a lot of Splanectomies, you know,

833

because they're being quoted

once again, eight, 10, 12, 000.

834

And, you know, we top out at 2000, a lot

of times less we're on a sliding scale.

835

And also, um, so sometimes we do them

for nothing, but we don't tell people.

836

But, uh, so, you know, we're, you

know, and that's the point you can

837

start out a certain, you can't raise

your price, but, you know, we started

838

high income down, you know, but you

can't start the bottom and go out.

839

Well, how much can you do afford?

840

You can get another quarter, right?

841

Uh, so a lot of times it is kind of

shaking quarters out of people, you

842

know, because as a nonprofit, my goal

is for us to make enough money to make

843

our payroll, at least, you know, that's

always been my goal to make our payroll.

844

And if we do extra things in terms

of going out to a small community

845

and do an extra spay neuter or going

to reservations or send a suture

846

overseas, I That comes from the extra

money from people that donate to us,

847

you know, uh, and we have great fans

that follow us and that give us money.

848

So that, that's always good.

849

Um, you know, but once again, we were

around for 30, 30 years as a for profit

850

and a very profitable for profit, I

might add, you know, we did really well.

851

Switching over to a nonprofit was

kind of a decision I made because

852

of the TV show as much as anything.

853

And then I can't say it's been a great

decision, good one way or the other.

854

Uh, just, it is what it is.

855

It seems like we're working

just as hard as we ever have.

856

And, uh, money's tight all the time.

857

But part of that was COVID

increasing people's pay and those,

858

those kinds of things, you know?

859

So,

860

DrG: as you mentioned, as far as

payroll, being able to make payroll,

861

like that's our biggest expense, right?

862

Because we invest in our people.

863

So, we, one of the, one of the issues

that we were discussing before we

864

started recording was as far as, you

know, technicians and, and assistants

865

from other veterinary clinics

that come to see us because they

866

cannot afford care at their place.

867

And my thoughts on that are always,

are they not being paid enough?

868

Right?

869

Because then they, they, they should

be able to afford whatever the

870

place is, or is the place charging

too much, like, or, or is it both?

871

Uh, because I'm, I'm, I would, I'm

happy to say that my technicians, all

872

my employees, they would be able to

afford, even without a discount, the

873

cost that I charge for their, for their

874

Dr. Jeff Young: pets.

875

I've had people that fired and brought

their animals to me because they,

876

you know, it was like, can we please

see my dog and he's this problem,

877

you know, because they've been quoted

because they know we do a good job.

878

They know what we do,

you know, so, uh, yeah.

879

And that's a big part of it.

880

I agree.

881

I mean, they, um, plus, I don't know.

882

I just find it weird that.

883

Maybe it's a corporate thing, but

again, it's someone that works for you.

884

So do you got to charge them at all?

885

I mean, maybe cover your costs.

886

I get that, you know, like,

and we're a nonprofit.

887

So, you know, if I do something, well, you

know, like what's the cost of the blood

888

work, you know, if it costs us 20 bucks,

can you pay the 20 bucks, you know, right.

889

And we're not going to charge you

40 bucks or whatever, you know,

890

and I would never count my time.

891

If I'm doing a surgery for one of my,

one of the people that works for me or

892

a close friend, I never count my time.

893

You know, I just, uh, I don't do it.

894

So.

895

We try to make things reasonable for

the people that we care about and that

896

care about us, I guess, is the point.

897

.

DrG: Yeah, exactly.

898

We want to take care of each other because

I see a lot of articles and stuff saying

899

your co workers are not your family.

900

Get that out of your mind.

901

But I do see my co workers

as my family, right?

902

I see them as my kids and I got to take

care of them and they kind of, in return,

903

they kind of take care of me, right?

904

We're like, we all take

care of each other.

905

So I'm not here to, to

profit off my staff.

906

I mean, I don't, I don't profit of

any one person that I serve, so why

907

would I even profit off my staff?

908

Dr. Jeff Young: I understand.

909

I agree with you 110%.

910

DrG: Is there anything that you

would tell, you know, either

911

young veterinarians, new graduates

or, uh, veterinary students?

912

What kind of words of wisdom would

you, would you tell them when we have

913

so many people leaving the profession?

914

Dr. Jeff Young: I think more

than anything that money is a

915

short term motivator and there's.

916

You're only limited by your imagination.

917

I think so many people are afraid to

start up their own business, you know,

918

but, uh, I'm real proud of so many

of the vets, almost every vet that's

919

worked for me that's left and started

their own practice because they've

920

learned so much while they were here

and they feel confident doing it.

921

So, I mean, to me, that's a, that's saying

something, cause it's probably a good.

922

You know, 15 people that I can think of

and start practice in different states

923

or, you know, a couple in Colorado.

924

Um, so that really means something to me.

925

So I think, you know, I think, uh,

reaching out to main organizations, you

926

know, depending on where you're from.

927

Uh, and I think trying to

come back to a plan, Peter and

928

actually come out to Colorado.

929

We'll teach you stuff,

you know what I mean?

930

Be willing to learn, keep an open mind,

and realize you can make a decent living

931

without having to screw over anybody over.

932

You know, uh, enjoy, enjoy what you do.

933

I love working with the animals.

934

I love working with people, you

know, and I just, I think there's so

935

much out there that can be done, and

uh, you know, once you get in that

936

corporate mode, you don't see it, you

can't see the forest for the trees.

937

What did you get in the profession for?

938

You know, if you just want

money, I'm okay with that.

939

We'll get a corporate job.

940

If you want to make a difference in

people's lives and animals lives, you've

941

got to refocus and broaden your horizons.

942

DrG: And we have to be okay

with the people, right?

943

Like so many people say, I want to work

with animals because I don't like people.

944

If you don't like people, forget it.

945

Cause the animal doesn't bring itself.

946

Right.

947

Not since the Dr.

948

Doolittle Rex Harrison movie where

the animals just brought themselves.

949

Like we have to take care of the people.

950

Um, so yeah, this has been.

951

Amazing.

952

This has probably been the most

fun interview that I have done so

953

far since I started this podcast.

954

So I, I just really want to

thank you for, for being here.

955

I want to thank you for doing

what you do, because I mean,

956

we are on the same wavelength.

957

We are halfway different areas

of the Of the country, but

958

kind of doing the same thing.

959

So thank you so very much.

960

All the best of luck.

961

Thank you.

962

And to And to everybody that's listening.

963

I hope that you got some good information

about what we discussed here And thank

964

you so much for listening and thank

you so much for caring about animals

965

Dr. Jeff Young: And if you want to come

down to mexico sometime do one of our

966

big spay neuter clinics, you're welcome

We got a beautiful place down there

967

and uh, you know, you get down there.

968

We house you and take care of you.

969

So

970

DrG: Fantastic.

971

I may take you up on that Okay

972

Dr. Jeff Young: Thank you so much Dr.

973

Jeff.

974

Thank you.