We conclude our series looking at the ground-breaking research called The Quest for Legitimacy. This research spoke with rising gen family members from around the globe and asked them to share their experiences of growing up in "The Land of Giants".

In this episode Jamie and I discuss the importance of humanising the giants in our lives to allow us to be able to walk in the land of giants.

The Quest for Legitimacy: How Children of Prominent Families Discover Their Unique Place in the World is available to buy on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. It will also be available in book stores. 

You can follow these links to order the book: 

Amazon USA 

Amazon UK 

Barnes and Noble 

If you would like to speak to us about a bulk order for your family, your clients or team members please email us:

hello@questforlegitimacy.com  

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Russ Haworth: 00:00:59

episode of the family business podcast.

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We are drawing our special series on the quest for legitimacy to a close today.

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And talking to Jamie about amongst other things, the role that humanizing

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the giant in our lives can play.

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In us being able to walk in the land of giants ourselves.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:22

Um, it's a fascinating conversation.

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I'm really excited to be bringing it to you.

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If you have already ordered the book, which you can do.

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So from the quest for legitimacy website, which is quest for legitimacy.com.

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Please do leave a review on Amazon.

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If you've enjoyed the Birkin.

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And it's resonated with your own experiences.

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Please head over to Amazon and leave a review.

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View because it will help others find the book.

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And that's kind of our mission here is to try.

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Try and bring this to as many people and help as many people

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with this as we possibly can.

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I'm going to be taking a little bit of a break over the summer.

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There might be a couple of in-between a soda that, um, get released

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that I'm due to record shortly.

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Um, but we'll be recommencing the series based approach in, uh, September time.

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So excited to bring you some new episodes there.

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as always, if there's anything.

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That you particularly want covered, please do get in touch.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:23

Um, but for now enjoy the last of my.

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special interviews with Dr.

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Jamie Weiner on his incredible research.

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And book.

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Um, and in this particular episode, the role of humanizing the giant in our lives.

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I hope you enjoy it and i'll pass over to that conversation now

Russ Haworth: 00:02:40

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the family business podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:45

I'm joined again by my friend and colleague, Dr.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:48

Jamie Wener.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:49

Jamie, how are you today?

Jamie Weiner: 00:02:51

I'm doing wonderful, glad that I'm talking to a friend and a.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:55

Fantastic.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:56

And we are continuing our look at the research, um, that has led to the writing

Russ Haworth: 00:03:03

and publication of your book, which is, uh, titled the quest for legitimacy,

Russ Haworth: 00:03:08

how children of prominent families discover their unique place in the world.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:12

And this is the fourth.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:14

Recording of our, uh, summary of the discoveries that we

Russ Haworth: 00:03:20

made during the research.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:22

And we've highlighted that there are four non-linear phases of the quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:27

We have awareness, we have tug of war exploration and then ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:34

And in our last discussion, we spoke about breaking moments

Russ Haworth: 00:03:38

and periods of liminality.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:41

and so the topic of today's show, and I'm gonna put you on a spot and, um, ask you

Russ Haworth: 00:03:46

a, a direct question in terms of what is it you are hoping people will take away

Russ Haworth: 00:03:52

from the research and reading your book.

Jamie Weiner: 00:03:57

Well, I couldn't be put on the spot by a nicer guy, but, uh,

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:01

let's start, let's start with the fact that, um, the people we

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:06

interviewed expressed that they were.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:09

Uh, that there was a tremendous amount of loneliness in the experience.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:14

that sense of,

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:16

there's nobody else in the world going through this, but

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:18

me and it's not irrational.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:22

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:22

And is, there's an awareness that there are other people out there.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:26

The other people.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:28

Struggle that maybe other people's struggles are the same or different.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:33

if you're listening and you think about, particularly at the height of a breaking

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:37

moment, the, the, the first thing you kind of experience is, oh my God, I'm alone.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:45

This is all about me.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:49

And if.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:50

We could turn that down for people.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:56

And if the research could lead to a sense of normalcy, that there's something normal

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:05

about it, that that alone would feel like a huge accomplishment for the research.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:12

The second part.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:15

is, is the really finding ways for people to connect and, feel like there's

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:23

a path that that's can be gone down.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:28

And that by sharing that path, by being on a quest, there is.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:36

not only just the potential, not to feel alone, but the potential

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:41

to learn from others, both about how do they handle the challenges,

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:48

but also to begin to think about all the potential impacts and outcomes

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:54

that people can hear.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:55

In their relationships.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:57

Uh, there's a lot of talk about the rising gem being very concerned about impact.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:03

I, I grew up in the sixties, there was a lot of talk about what we,

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:08

how we were gonna change the world.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:10

you know, it's easier said than done.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:13

and if the research helped people.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:16

stay connected to the wish.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:18

you know, we all gotta figure out the basics, right?

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:22

you get in a relationship.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:23

There's always something that goes along with being in a relationship.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:29

you have kids.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:30

That's also always time absorbing, but having kids is also an opportunity to

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:35

have an impact on another generation.

Russ Haworth: 00:06:39

Mm-hmm

Russ Haworth: 00:06:39

. Jamie Weiner: but both heterosexual

Russ Haworth: 00:06:42

having kids one way or another.

Russ Haworth: 00:06:45

we've talked to people who aren't having kids, but have nieces and nephews,

Russ Haworth: 00:06:50

Particularly in this case, uh, the space of family, business and family

Russ Haworth: 00:06:55

wealth, the necessity to do things together, heightens some of that.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:03

and a lot of the people we talked to as they progressed along their.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:10

Found ways to have to do something that would have impact on other

Russ Haworth: 00:07:15

people and, uh, where they would feel that they would make a difference.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:21

boy, that, I mean, I can look at my own life, you know, even doing this, this

Russ Haworth: 00:07:27

research with you and writing a book and.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:31

And, you know, on one hand.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:33

And so, yeah, let's sell the book cuz you gotta sell copies of the book, but the,

Russ Haworth: 00:07:38

the real win is if somebody reads the book and says, oh God, I can see myself in it.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:47

Um, so I guess, I guess I could go on for a about it for a while, but I think those

Russ Haworth: 00:07:54

are the, the, the basics, the essentials.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:00

Mm, I, I was gonna mention that about your own life

Russ Haworth: 00:08:03

and your own experiences and, and the, the impact that this research

Russ Haworth: 00:08:10

can have and, and the book can have, and the effect that has on again, we

Russ Haworth: 00:08:17

talk a lot about this in, in the, the field that we work in around legacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:23

But part of my view on legacy is that that's not really decided

Russ Haworth: 00:08:27

until we are not here anymore.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:30

And actually it's our impact that creates our legacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:34

And by focusing on that impact and the things you can actually do to

Russ Haworth: 00:08:38

help and support people rather than.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:41

What that means in terms of what people may say or think about

Russ Haworth: 00:08:45

is when we're no longer here.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:47

I think it's more relevant to focus on those impact side of things.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:51

And certainly the, the feedback that we've had from everyone that has read the

Russ Haworth: 00:08:57

book in, in the lead up to the launch.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:00

Particularly from those people that we spoke to during the research is

Russ Haworth: 00:09:06

that the sort of main comment is we wish this existed whilst we were

Russ Haworth: 00:09:11

going through the break in moments that we've spoken to you, uh, about.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:16

Uh, and obviously we can't do anything retrospectively,

Russ Haworth: 00:09:18

but I guess the hope is that.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:21

Moving forward.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:23

This becomes something that is talked about far more, widely, far more openly

Russ Haworth: 00:09:28

with people so that, um, not that we avoid the, the challenge, uh, and the,

Russ Haworth: 00:09:37

the, the quest itself is something to, to be embraced and, and to, to be taken on.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:44

I refer to it in the I'm a parent, as you know of, of two,

Russ Haworth: 00:09:49

uh, wonderful little girls and.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:52

I always find it when I see other people parenting and letting their

Russ Haworth: 00:09:58

kids run off and, and go wild.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:00

I think it's easier to say, oh, you've gotta let 'em fall

Russ Haworth: 00:10:02

over and scrape their knee.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:03

You've gotta let them kind of get their heart broken or whatever it

Russ Haworth: 00:10:06

is when it comes to your own lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:08

It's much harder to do that because.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:11

The, the kind of natural inclination to protect.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:13

And I guess that's what we're saying about the quest as well, is that there

Russ Haworth: 00:10:15

might be a natural inclination to go.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:17

We've gotta help people avoid this side.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:20

Whereas what we are saying through the research on the book is we've

Russ Haworth: 00:10:23

gotta be there to help support people as they go through this.

Russ Haworth: 00:10:26

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:27

So a couple weeks ago, and this connects directly to what

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:31

you're talking about, Russ, but, um,

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:34

my dad was a prominent rail by, in, um,

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:37

In, in many ways, it's a similar kind of thing as starting a business.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:43

there's some clear differences, but that's not important right now.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:47

that at the time, first summer, Couple acres of land, uh, happened to be on a

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:54

house that was the Carnation family's mansion, big family in the states.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:00

and the first summer there, they, um, built a, a chapel just in time

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:07

for services on cha on Friday night.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:12

um, I went back cuz they're thinking about naming the chapel after my father, which

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:18

would had been before, but rededicated it, my father's been going since 1980, the

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:25

camp serves a thousand kids this summer.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:29

It's now 258 50 acres.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:33

it's a city and it does things during the winter as well.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:39

that's a legacy, right?

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:41

I mean, um, in the moments in my life where I wondered whether, um, I could ever

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:49

achieve or live up to him and in that way, and for him, it wasn't about making money.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:56

It wasn't about wealth.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:57

It wasn't any of that kind of stuff.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:00

and the reality is I have no, no idea what the mark is gonna be when I'm gone.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:09

What the impact on my step kids is gonna be, who happened to like me?

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:14

I like that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:16

Um, who happened to wanna spend time with me?

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:19

I like that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:22

Um, My step kids who've figured out, um, how to have a relationship

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:28

with me and their biological father.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:31

they have kids

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:36

I'm not gonna be around for the final impact of that.

Russ Haworth: 00:12:39

Mm.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:39

So in some ways, all of us are left living the best life we can live.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:47

And you can't do that unless you take some ownership of your life.

Russ Haworth: 00:12:53

And I'm curious in, in terms of the experience that you've had through

Russ Haworth: 00:12:59

the research and not so much in, in terms of the research itself, but obviously I.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:06

I've been there and, and understand how much work went into writing the book

Russ Haworth: 00:13:11

and the importance of understanding the minutia of detail that that was

Russ Haworth: 00:13:18

covered in the interviews that we had.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:20

We, we had 24 participants.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:23

We had two interviews, at least they weren't short.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:29

They were, you know, couple of, of hours, if not more in, in some circumstances.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:35

And so there's an awful lot of information and time and experience.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:40

That's gone into curating that into a book that is, is full of stories of,

Russ Haworth: 00:13:45

of experiences that, that we heard.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:48

But, but I wonder in terms.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:51

Tying those experiences to the research, how that resonated with your own

Russ Haworth: 00:13:57

experience in terms of your own quest for legitimacy and taking ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:03

Obviously the, the, the prominence of your father is, is something that is,

Russ Haworth: 00:14:07

has been present your, your entire life.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:10

Uh, and I'm just wondering how this process has impacted on you in terms of.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:16

Taking ownership of that and, and your own quest for legitimacy.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:21

Yeah, it's great to hear you talk about it.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:23

Um, you know, we've been working on this for five years and it, it seems like

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:30

it should have gone faster, you know?

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:34

24 interviews twice, even if they were two hours each, then finding a research team.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:43

Thank you to Joel Hawa from university of Adelaide in Australia

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:49

and Frank, Barb, or Francesco.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:53

Who's now at Ryerson university in, in, in, um, Canada, all of that effort.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:02

and it took me a long time to Hey, wait a second.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:12

there are lives that the lives of all these interviews that we've handed on

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:16

to this research team and my life, you know, and that's so different, right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:25

Um, In the course of all of this, I got back a building in Berlin that had been my

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:31

grandfather's before Hitler came to power.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:34

I found out that my grandfather on my father's side had started a clothing

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:39

factory with two branches in, in Dresden all before Hitler came to power.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:48

oh my goodness.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:49

I grew up in one of these families.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:51

And even the financial part, if not for Hitler, you know,

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:57

it would've something who knows what would've gotten handed down.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:02

Yeah.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:03

growing up in somebody's, uh, as who was as prominent as

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:08

my dad, there were moments of it being great that it was a cute.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:15

there was a moment which a whole story in the book where I got an opportunity at a

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:19

very young age to deliver a sermon, which not many, nine or 10 year olds get to do.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:27

was never gonna be a, a baseball star, so thank God I had something right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:32

My moment.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:34

Um, what happened for me.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:36

And I think it's what happened for happened for everybody else we talked to

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:42

is the prominence of your parents hangs out in a, in the background and for a

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:51

good part of your life, they don't appear.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:55

And they, they, you know, you, you know, on some level they're human,

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:01

but they're much more like, um, the wizard and the wizard of Oz before the

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:08

curtain got drawn than anything else.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:12

They just have this huge presence that seems to hover And some people know ju he

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:19

talks it about the shadow that lies above.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:25

and that's kind of the, the, the struggle part of the struggle

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:30

and the background of growing up.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:33

Mm.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:34

I asked this question of.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:37

Couple of the, the people that we spoke to in terms of the point at which they'd

Russ Haworth: 00:17:42

reached in their lives and whether they felt that they were a giant.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:48

And again, putting you on the spot at this point in your life, do you feel

Russ Haworth: 00:17:54

that has this helped you to kind of gain that feeling of, of internal legitimacy?

Russ Haworth: 00:18:02

That means that there.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:05

You know, I know the answer.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:06

There are people that look up to you.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:07

I, in that sense and consider you a giant in, in their lives.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:12

You know, it's, it's such a funny question.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:14

I remember the first time in an interview where you asked

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:19

somebody much younger than me.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:22

who'd reached a life that she, she found somebody to live

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:25

her life with a life partner.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:27

She had, some success.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:30

She talked about going back to her family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:33

And being an influence on the next generation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:37

And you said, so let me ask you, are, are you a giant?

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:45

And I think you knocked her off.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:47

I don't know if she was outta chair, but you knocked her off wherever she was.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:51

And she came back and she said, yeah, uh, maybe I'm a giant it may be little

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:00

G as opposed to big G compared to what her grandfather, um, accomplished.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:07

I think two things go on at the same time.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:10

It did, for me very clearly the writing, writing of this book and the response

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:17

I've gotten has made me feel like, oh my.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:21

I've done something significant.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:23

the other thing that's happened for me over the course of my life, and

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:27

I think it happened for everybody we talked to and there's a chapter in

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:32

the book that focuses on it is at some point the curtain gets pulled back.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:41

You realize the giant is just a human being.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:46

It's just a mortal.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:48

and I think that's kind of, it's a kind of bittersweet reality.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:53

yeah.

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:54

in regard to my own father, he's still a giant, but I

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:58

could tell you very human stories about who he is and what he struggled.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:04

And how important do you think it is that, that kind of, for one

Russ Haworth: 00:20:10

of a better phrase, that humanization of the, the giant, the fact that we,

Russ Haworth: 00:20:16

we might look up to the giants in, in our lives, but understanding that they.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:22

Or have been on their own quest for legitimacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:26

How important is that in, in one sense of, of humanizing and, and empathizing

Russ Haworth: 00:20:31

with their experience, but also in terms of them being able to walk in the land

Russ Haworth: 00:20:36

of giants ourselves, that, that element of understanding and, and empathy that

Russ Haworth: 00:20:41

we can have for those that have gone before us do, do you, does that hold

Russ Haworth: 00:20:47

significance in terms of how people.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:49

Um, take, take on what we've discovered in, in, in the research.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:54

Yeah, because you know, when you grow up, when

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:56

I was growing up, I didn't go.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:59

Even when there were hints about.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:01

Oh, yeah.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:01

My parents grew up in Germany in 1939.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:04

They had to leave because of Hitler.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:07

they ended up going by boat to what was Palestine at the time, and then had to

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:12

go through India and by another boat.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:15

And both of 'em grow up in pretty, you know, nice homes to the United

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:21

States and started all all over.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:24

I, you, it was sort of like, oh yeah, well, that's an interesting fact.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:29

it was almost as if I was the one who couldn't let the humanness in.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:34

I think we just heard that repeatedly and we heard it in different ways.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:40

We heard it in different ways from women than we did for men.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:43

It's kind of hold hard to hold both images in your hands at the same

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:48

time and as important as it is.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:50

And then what we're really missing is the conversations about it.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:55

Awesome.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:56

I remember, um, one story, obviously we, we spoke, um, about

Russ Haworth: 00:22:00

the land of, of giants and inevitably in terms of the conversations that

Russ Haworth: 00:22:05

we had with the, the people that we spoke with throughout the research, we

Russ Haworth: 00:22:09

had an impact on them just by giving them an outlet for that conversation.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:14

And I remember, um, One of them speaking about their father as a giant and

Russ Haworth: 00:22:22

considering him as a giant, but then looking back in retrospect and going

Russ Haworth: 00:22:25

actually it was a, it was quite a clumsy.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:30

Giant.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:30

If, if you imagine that the person we spoke to consider themselves as, as kind

Russ Haworth: 00:22:34

of tending to the garden and keeping everything neat and tidy, IMB balancing

Russ Haworth: 00:22:38

roles within the, the family and the, the business and, and the other operations,

Russ Haworth: 00:22:42

he then described his father as his kind of clumsy giant wo wandering around

Russ Haworth: 00:22:48

knocking plant pots off the wall and stepping on the flowers and ruining.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:52

And I think that's a, that's a wonderful image for the fact that.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:56

The, his father was still a giant in his life, but it was that humanization

Russ Haworth: 00:23:00

of it, of mistakes were made.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:03

And.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:04

We are only human at the end of it.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:06

And I, I think it's really important in terms of some of the outcomes from

Russ Haworth: 00:23:12

the research and encouragement that that people can, can take in terms of

Russ Haworth: 00:23:16

living up to, to the achievements and, and expectations that others may have.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:21

It is that the people that achieve things in life are human, too, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:23:25

They, they are, they are mortal.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:28

They are not, they're not the wizard in, in the wizard of Oz that they are.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:33

People who are trying their best and who are potentially making

Russ Haworth: 00:23:36

mistakes as they go along the way.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:38

But at the, the end of it, they, they

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:42

I, I love that one because I also remember earlier on,

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:45

in his stories when he told about, um, his dad, rising from, kind of meager

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:52

beginnings and came to the country and.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:55

Um, and in over the course of his lifetime started, um, I think it was 10 businesses.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:03

And at that point he was a giant, without many holes in it, right on the, um, a

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:11

little awkward to deal with him at times.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:14

Um, all of us have moments of awkwardness dealing with our parents.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:19

at least most of us, So we, we got two contrasting stories that had changed

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:27

as much as he had changed over the

Russ Haworth: 00:24:31

Mm.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:32

And ju just on that theme of humanizing the, the giants in our lives, where do

Russ Haworth: 00:24:39

you see that having additional impacts?

Russ Haworth: 00:24:42

So for, for me, it, it, I believe it will help in terms of

Russ Haworth: 00:24:46

conversations around transitions of worth or transitions of ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:53

Businesses of assets of things.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:55

If they're, if there's a, a greater understanding in

Russ Haworth: 00:24:58

terms of the giant themselves.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:00

So again, if, if people listen to this and they think, well, actually I would

Russ Haworth: 00:25:03

consider myself a, a giant on this understanding that we are on the quest for

Russ Haworth: 00:25:08

legitimacy and that it's non-linear, and that it's not, you know, you don't get a

Russ Haworth: 00:25:11

badge when you go through the finish line of the quest to go I'm I'm legitimate.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:16

And, and that, that stays in place for the rest of your life.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:19

I the, the impact that this could have in terms of those types of discussions,

Russ Haworth: 00:25:23

I think is profound because it, it again helps people to understand and better

Russ Haworth: 00:25:29

understand what's happening within their own lives and perhaps the lives

Russ Haworth: 00:25:33

of those that are happening around them.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:35

You have so many of the stories in the interviews that

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:38

we had, even the ones that went back.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:42

350 years.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:44

Although the memory of that is not the same as if it's second

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:48

generation or third generation, somewhere in all those stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:53

Somebody came from something, right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:57

You know, um, cobbler somewhere , you know, they, they came from

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:05

some beginnings that, We're not what they ended up building.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:10

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:10

you're born into one of those families, particularly your

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:15

couple generations in it.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:16

And now they, these are myths.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:18

They're not stories, you know, have the connection.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:23

Um, we had a great example of that with somebody in a, a business that, brought.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:28

Prominent automobiles to Costa Rica.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:32

You know, he, he didn't remember the founder of the business was his

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:36

grandfather, uh, cuz he had died young.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:40

there is some struggle to make sense of those stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:45

Make the other generation human.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:47

As you begin to emerge in the other expression.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:51

Um, you've had Jim Grubman on your show and Jim Grubman said to me, yeah, it's

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:57

really about being able to walk in the land of the giants to find your place.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:02

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:02

And I think one of the points around the stories that we hear and the myth

Russ Haworth: 00:27:08

that we hear is the amount of potential exaggeration that can happen over time.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:13

And that there's elements of.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:16

The kind of some of the negative elements falling away over time so

Russ Haworth: 00:27:20

that, you know, it comes from, uh, a person doing something that's not

Russ Haworth: 00:27:24

insignificant and achieving something to them, actually defining all the

Russ Haworth: 00:27:28

odds and beating everything and being completely flawless through it all.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:31

And they never showed that there was any kind of adversity in

Russ Haworth: 00:27:35

their lives and, and some of the.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:37

Um, humanization the human element of all of our journeys can be lost over time.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:42

As people kind of refine the story to, to pick out the highlights,

Russ Haworth: 00:27:46

which can then create giants.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:48

Right?

Russ Haworth: 00:27:48

I guess we, we spoke to families that had legacies of many hundreds of years and

Russ Haworth: 00:27:54

all the good side of that is celebrated, but it can be forgotten sometimes in the

Russ Haworth: 00:27:59

stories that those people that went before them would've been on their own quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:04

Would've been.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:05

Feeling that sense of, um, wanting for, for internal logistic, would've

Russ Haworth: 00:28:10

been having breaking moments.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:12

Would've been having periods of ality in their life, and that should

Russ Haworth: 00:28:15

offer everybody encouragement.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:17

I think in terms of, in our quest to measure up that the people that

Russ Haworth: 00:28:22

went before us had the, the similar emotions had the similar experiences,

Russ Haworth: 00:28:27

just perhaps in, in a different time.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:30

Perhaps Russ, what happens when, um, in businesses and

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:35

transition between generations and even within they're not transitioning

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:41

yet is there's a tendency.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:46

To focus for the darkest elements to rise to the surface.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:51

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:52

to get into disagreements about who's gonna own what percentage of

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:56

the goose that laid the golden egg, which is how I like to refer to it,

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:01

cuz it kind of captures all of it

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:03

not as part of the study, but a very prominent family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:07

I knew, dad gave almost everything to one sibling, not to another sibling.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:14

And upon his death, the sibling who got everything went back and divided

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:20

it all evenly between the two of them.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:24

And I think when people begin to do things like that, th they make the importance of

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:31

who gets the most, or who gets what, less the issue than, um, what does it mean to

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:37

live a good life or at least a not bad life, you know, to, to end up feeling

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:43

good about who you are and what you've.

Russ Haworth: 00:29:46

that, as an example, to, to others who will follow us again,

Russ Haworth: 00:29:50

could be the creation of that shadow that, that we talk about in terms of the

Russ Haworth: 00:29:55

growing up in, in the, the shadow is it's.

Russ Haworth: 00:29:58

It, it shouldn't be seen as a negative.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:00

It it's there and it's present, but, um, it can be aspirational as well in

Russ Haworth: 00:30:05

terms of striving to have a positive life that, you know, those have gone

Russ Haworth: 00:30:09

before you have set that example.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:11

Yeah.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:12

You know, we live in an age where psychology is focused

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:16

on positive psychology.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:19

And I was trained in, in an age where there was a lot of thinking

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:24

about the darker side, you know, Freud, young, all those people

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:28

thought about the darker side.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:30

And I'm excited by positive psychology.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:33

We shouldn't, you know, bury ourselves into, but to not

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:38

acknowledge that both exist.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:41

and that also is why it's important to be able to rise above and to

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:46

focus on the, the things that connect us cuz they're there,

Russ Haworth: 00:30:52

Yeah,

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:53

in family.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:55

absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:55

And as we draw this series to a close.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:03

Just in terms of some sort of final thoughts from you

Russ Haworth: 00:31:08

in terms of what you are.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:10

Again, hoping people will take away from what we've been speaking

Russ Haworth: 00:31:14

about in these episodes, but also in terms of the book and.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:19

Uh, the research and as I say, lots more information can be found at the website,

Russ Haworth: 00:31:26

which is quest for legitimacy.com.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:28

Um, there's ways in which you can get in touch with this.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:31

If this has resonated, we would love to hear from you.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:33

I mean, we, we had such a great time over that five years of, of those

Russ Haworth: 00:31:39

interviews and the subsequent discussions.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:42

I remember when we were having conversations with the

Russ Haworth: 00:31:44

research team, the timing.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:46

because of the geography was kind of early evening for you.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:51

Um, very early morning for Australia and, and midnight UK time.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:56

And the, the enjoyment that came out of having two, three hour conversations

Russ Haworth: 00:32:02

about the research and the, all the technical side of what went into this is.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:09

It's a long lasting memory for, for me may well also be a breaking moment

Russ Haworth: 00:32:13

when, when I reflect back on it.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:15

But I'm, I'm keen to, um, hear from you as to, to your, what your hoping your,

Russ Haworth: 00:32:21

your key takeaways are from, from the people that have been listening to us.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:26

Uh, talking about this.

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:28

this opportunity to have this series has been kind of a great way

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:32

to illustrate some of the key points that we discovered and to take 'em a little

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:39

bit, you know, get a little bit into them.

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:43

One of the people who endorsed the book started off by calling me a storyteller.

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:50

And I was, I was absolutely thrilled with that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:55

Because I think the part that both of us loved was all of a sudden,

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:02

you turn zoom on with somebody you've never physically met before.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:08

And you ask him, what is it like growing up in the land of giants?

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:13

And you have no idea what's gonna come out of their mouth.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:18

It was like they wanted to talk.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:20

It was not a burden.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:23

It was like, um, they live with a lot of and quiet.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:28

So they wanted to share the stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:30

they did not wanna be critical or cruel to generations that came before them.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:36

That was, was not their intent or their purpose.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:40

They weren't focused on how much money they're gonna get.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:43

, or if they didn't come from money, they weren't focused on, anything that were the

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:48

gifts that would be coming from parents.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:51

to talk about, their, their path.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:55

Of trying to figure out how to measure up stories are, are powerful.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:02

You know, that's, that's how we understand people.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:04

We understand people and stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:07

So I know we'll find a time to do more of that, but this

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:10

has been a great foundation.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:12

Yeah, absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:13

We, we've got lots of plans in terms of bringing far more, uh, information and,

Russ Haworth: 00:34:20

and stories from, from the research, um, in, uh, its own dedicated podcast, which,

Russ Haworth: 00:34:25

uh, I'm very much looking forward to, uh, starting and recording, um, with you.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:30

But for now that it is been a real pleasure.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:35

Partly because the whole time that we've known and, and worked together, the, the

Russ Haworth: 00:34:40

kind of the introduction that was made by Judy those years ago was off the back of

Russ Haworth: 00:34:46

the fact that I had started this podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:50

And it seems slightly strange in some ways that we're five years on.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:56

and you're only just going to talk about it, but we, we needed it to, to

Russ Haworth: 00:35:01

get to this stage, to, to be able to share with people the, the experience.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:05

And, um, it it's been such an enriching part of my life and, and my experience,

Russ Haworth: 00:35:13

um, ha having undertaken that.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:15

And I'm, I'm very much looking forward to what we've got

Russ Haworth: 00:35:18

planned with this moving forward.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:20

But for now, thank you for coming on the show.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:24

And for sharing your, your insights and wisdom from the research and yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:29

Look forward to continuing this at another time.