All Work and No Play - Insights on Burnout

In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest Dr Karen Michell. Karen, an occupational health nurse with experience in academia, shares her experience of going through burnout, both as a worker and a boss, and how it impacted her mental health.

The conversation and questions include:

• What is burnout?
• What are the common signs of burnout?
• What burnout symptoms did you experience?
• What triggered the burnout?
• How did you come to realise you had burnout?
• How many times have you experienced burnout?
• What key steps did you take to overcome burnout?
• What do you do to keep you from burning out again?
• What advice would you give to someone who is currently experiencing burnout?
• How faith in God helped in the burnout process.
• Bible verses for burnout.

Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.

Guest details:

Karen is a wife and mother with two grandsons. She is also an occupational health nurse practitioner with over 25 years’ international experience spanning occupational health, safety, research, and education. Her professional experience is underpinned by a strong academic and research background which extended into occupational safety and health (OSH) consultancy in pharmaceutical, construction, logistics, healthcare and manufacturing sectors.

Karen's a Fellow of the Academy of Nursing in South Africa in recognition of her contribution to research and practice in occupational health nursing. She is an accomplished international author and presenter on multiple occupational safety and health related subjects.

MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: Meditate on the bible scripture Colossians 1:11.

Related resources: Also check out podcasts Episode 1: Running on Empty & Episode 8: Helping the Helper.

Connect with MaryLayo:

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For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

1

MaryLayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast

that.

2

MaryLayo: Discusses mental health and

spiritual well being.

3

Before we jump in, there may be episodes that

are particularly sensitive for some.

4

MaryLayo: Listeners, and if that applies, then

I hope you'll be able to join me.

5

MaryLayo: Whenever you feel ready and able.

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Karen: You.

7

MaryLayo: In today's episode, we'll be talking

about burnout, and my guest is Dr. Karen

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Michell.

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I thought it'd be good to invite Karen as

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she's experienced burnout and is an

occupational health nurse practitioner with

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over 25 years international experience

spanning occupational health, safety research

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and education.

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I started off by asking Karen to describe

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burnout.

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Let's have a listen.

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MaryLayo: So let's start with the basics.

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How would you describe burnout?

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Karen: Well, I think one of the things that is

important to remember is it's not a medical

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diagnosis, so it's not really very easy to

define, but it's basically your body's

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response to unrelenting and unmanageable

stress from the working environment.

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Three common things that you'll see in people

with burnout is they will be physically and

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mentally exhausted, they will have these

negative attitudes to work and will actually

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start withdrawing and with a lot of sense of

negativity associated with it as well.

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But as I say, from one person to another, your

experiences may differ, which makes it a

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difficult concept to get your head around.

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MaryLayo: Sure. So how many times have you

experienced burnout?

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Twice.

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Karen: I mean, I honestly thought had it once

would never happen again, but yes, it's

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happened to me twice.

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MaryLayo: To me, that just highlights how

easy, if I can use that word, how easy it can

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be for someone to get to that place where

they've experienced burnout.

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Karen: And I think one of the things to

remember is it's not a case that you get

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burnout, you get treated and it's over.

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It's actually then the ability to have this

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lifelong learning and understand that what you

did to get rid of it, you need to sustain in

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your life.

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MaryLayo: Right. That's interesting.

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So, Karen, the first time you experienced

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burnout, what was life like or working life

like?

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Because you mentioned about work related, I

guess it's a work related issue and that

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sparks two things for me.

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One is, can someone experience burnout just

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even by being overwhelmed by personal

circumstances?

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And then secondly, how was life like for you

before you first experienced burnout?

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Karen: I think one of the important things to

remember is that your life experiences may

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contribute to it, but just having personal

life experiences does not constitute burnout.

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Burnout.

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It definitely stems from the working

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environment, things around you.

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So for me, I've always been a doer, a go

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getter.

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I've always seen myself as a person who

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thrives under stress.

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But what happened to me was I joined a new job

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in academics, which was something I hadn't

really trained for in my basic training.

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It was new people as well as it being a new

job, it was brand new curricula.

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So we didn't even have programs developed.

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So a lot of it was kind of like making a plan

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as we went along.

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And then I was perceived as being a doer, so I

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was just given more and more responsibility.

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My students were younger than me, so I just

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had an accumulation of things that worked

against me.

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And then I had a boss who just kept loading

and I didn't have the ability and the skills

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to actually kick back and say, hey, let's

stop.

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And I just want to add and then I think

personality also kicks in here because I

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perceived myself as being somebody who would

cope with anything.

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So I just thought, well, I'll get through

this, I'll get through this.

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MaryLayo: I guess the things that stand out

for me is that there was a lot coming on you

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in a short period of time.

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There wasn't that ability to be able to adjust

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and increase capacity.

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And plus it got to the point where the

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workload was beyond your capacity in terms of

the level of work and how much was involved.

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And it wasn't managed not necessarily by you,

I'm not saying you, but it wasn't managed

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appropriately by others that could have

supported that process or been more cognizant

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of the situation.

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Karen: Yeah, no, very much so.

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And you know what, I just want to add into the

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mix of us at a time when mental health issues

were really not on the radar and also in an

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environment like an academic environment, you

have this philosophy of publish or perish.

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So it is just keep going, keep going.

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Even if others aren't putting pressure on you,

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you'll tend to do it yourself because that's

the only way you're going to progress within

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this environment.

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MaryLayo: A lot of pressure.

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That's what I'm feeling.

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A lot of pressure.

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And so what was your symptoms then?

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I guess it was what you described earlier.

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Karen: Well, you know what, for me it was

quite interesting because I didn't notice them

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in the beginning and a lot of those earlier

symptoms, like I was getting a lot of

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musculoskeletal pain, headaches,

gastrointestinal problems, and I kept

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rationalizing them as being something else.

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And it was only when I started to lose it, as

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people would say, I mean, from having been a

very organized and collected individual,

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suddenly I just didn't have the same level of

patience at work.

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I had a great mentor at work who just said to

me, you just don't seem to have a passion for

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this.

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And yet I was in what I saw as my ideal job.

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I loved what I was doing, I loved where I was.

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But it was how it was coming across that this

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manifestation in me.

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And it was only when those individuals started

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saying to me, you need to take a look at where

you are, that I then started to think a little

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bit more about where I was at and realized

this is not the me I know.

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And that's what kind of made me realize I had

to do something about my situation.

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MaryLayo: And how long was this period from

when you started this new role to where you

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got to that point where you realized that you

had to do something?

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Karen: You know what?

I would say it was probably a good year before

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it was so bad that I realized that I needed to

do something about it.

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I mean, I've always been the kind of person

that thought, I'll get through it, I'll get

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through it.

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This is normal.

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But, yeah, I'd say good year.

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Before, I actually made a concerted effort of

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trying to get help.

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MaryLayo: And you mentioned how your mentor

was the one that had that conversation with

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you.

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Did others around you notice what was going on

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and how you like, you mentioned how you didn't

recognize yourself.

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Did others around you recognize that as well?

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Karen: You know, what my husband did, he kind

of picked up that there were changes.

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But one of the things that I was doing as a

result of this was I was actually withdrawing

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from my social contacts.

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I think I was just so physically and mentally

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exhausted at that time that I didn't want to

interact if I didn't need to.

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So people around me were friends and other

family weren't really seeing it.

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They would make comments like, we haven't seen

you for ages.

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Yes, it was one of my symptoms that I started

withdrawing socially.

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MaryLayo: Right.

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And like, what you're saying reminds me of

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friends that I know who have experienced

burnout.

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Those were the signs as well.

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They too started withdrawing.

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So, yeah, it's just ringing bells to me in

terms of the similarities.

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So you got to that point where you knew you

had to do something.

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What did you do?

What was that action, that step that you took?

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Karen: Well, not clearly at that stage of my

life, understanding what it was all about.

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I just thought to myself that I must just need

some medication to help me cope better.

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And I went to go and see my GP, and I was just

very fortunate.

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I had a very good GP who said, I'm not giving

you medication.

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I want you to go and see a counselor because I

can medicate you, but I'm not going to solve

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your problem.

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You need to make changes from within.

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So for me, the big thing was I saw an

educational psychologist, okay.

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And she taught me how to understand what I was

going through and what I needed to do to

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actually get through it.

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MaryLayo: I don't think I've heard of

educational psychologists.

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Please elaborate a bit more.

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Karen: Well, educational psychologists,

remember, I was in an academic environment,

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okay?

So educational psychologists, they really

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specialize in the field of education, normally

with learners who have learning disorders and

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that kind of thing.

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But it was deemed that because of the

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environment that I was in that would be a

suitable person to assist me get through it

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and it was a good choice for me.

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MaryLayo: Okay, brilliant.

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And how long was that?

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And I'm assuming you took time out from work

during this period, or am.

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Karen: I no time off work?

Unfortunately, I was in a country where it

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doesn't provide for that.

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You basically either took sick leave and there

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was limited sick leave available to you.

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But again, it was my personality that kind of

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got in my way because I had these students who

were dependent on me and I didn't want to let

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them down.

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So was another reason that I wanted to carry

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on working.

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But what the counseling sessions did for me

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was I went weekly for a good three months and

then I went less frequently.

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So I had this constant support from somebody

who understood my environment and then was

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able to help me negotiate my way through

resolving those organizational issues at work

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so that I would be able to get myself into a

better space.

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MaryLayo: I guess I'm wowed.

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Really?

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The fact that you still was in that

pressurized environment with a lot of

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commitments that comes with it and you were

able to get through it because you had that

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support, so that support was really key.

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And I think what you mentioned about how the

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counselor understood your environment and was

able to help you help you through it, I mean,

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that's really good.

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So then that was your first experience of

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burnout.

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So was there anything that you put in place

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that you think was key to help you to be in a

position where you didn't even need that

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external support and you were in a much better

place in terms of your mental health and well

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being?

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Karen: One of the things that I got to

understand through the process was the fact

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that the organizational aspect needed to be

addressed.

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So one of the things that I gained was skills

in how to negotiate better with my boss.

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I had a boss who was a bit of a bully in a

sense, so I found ways of negotiating and then

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also how I could address conflict because I've

never been one for conflict resolution.

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I would avoid conflict rather than resolve it,

which doesn't help because the problem stays.

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So I was taught how to enter into conflict

resolution.

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And yes, one of the things that we did was I

had a mediator in place at work.

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So in other words, it got to the stage that

whenever my work schedule was going to be

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changed, the mediator had to be involved so

she could also help manage expectations and

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make sure I wasn't put into a situation where

work was just constantly being piled on.

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MaryLayo: Okay, there's a couple of things you

mentioned that I've really picked up on

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because one was about ways to negotiate.

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So for example, I mentioned about knowing

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people who, it's evident they are in a

position that they can't say no or they find

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it very difficult because they're intimidated,

for example, by their boss, their manager.

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So I'm really interested in how you learnt

those ways to negotiate.

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Was it a course or was it advice?

How did you learn that?

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Karen: It was actually in these counseling

sessions.

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One of the things is that I suppose it's

skills that you could learn in a course.

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But what would happen is the person I was

working with would say to me, I had to

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identify something in the past week that had

almost been a trigger for me.

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And then we would sit down and she would say,

well, what is the resolution that you want

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from this and how could you get there?

And she would help me work out.

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So for example, I might have to identify the

fact that going into an argument with a

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solution was better than just saying I can't

do this, go in and explain clearly why, but

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have a solution involved and then I'd have to

go and implement it and report back in my next

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session.

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MaryLayo: Accountability.

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Karen: If I hadn't been brave enough to do it,

we would then address what was then holding me

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back that I couldn't do that.

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So a lot of this was skills that I needed to

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learn and I was pretty young at the time as

well, so I think it's also I didn't really

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have those kind of life skills at that stage

that I could rely on.

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So I needed that help from somebody who knew

what it was that I needed to do, but without

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telling me A to C, but kind of guiding me how

to get through that process myself.

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MaryLayo: Sure. The person sounds like a great

counselor.

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Karen: I must just tell you one of the

sentences from one of our sessions I really

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kind of benefited from the most was I think

I'd been going for six months.

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And she said to me, I now think you're ready

to go out on probation.

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And what I mean by probation is you're not

cured.

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You are always going to slip back if you don't

continue with these life skills.

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She made it clear the door is always open.

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But I should have realized then that what she

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was telling me is this can happen again.

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MaryLayo: Sure, okay, we'll come back to that.

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But the other thing that you mentioned I found

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really interesting was mediation.

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You had a mediator at work, so how and why

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it's something that I'm not used to hearing.

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Karen: So one of the things was that I was

advised through these sessions again to find

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somebody at work that I trusted who had a

similar level of authority as my boss.

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I did.

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I had an individual who I really found was a

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very good support for me.

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And I then went to that individual and

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explained what was going on and asked her if

she would play the role if I broached it with

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my boss, which she very luckily agreed to do.

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And it was done in a non threatening way.

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So it was kind of made clear that I was

struggling and that she wants to make sure

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that we can all get through this with a

positive outcome.

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So it was a very positive thing.

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But you know what?

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I often think back.

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I mean, I sometimes wonder where I got the

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courage to do it.

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But I think you get to a point, you know you

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have to do something or you're not going to

get back to where you need to be.

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MaryLayo: You mentioned a little while ago how

your counselor said, you're now on probation

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and you just have to continue doing what

you're doing, otherwise you can slip back.

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So talk me through how your second experience

of burnout was and what may have led to that.

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So what was life like before and then what

then happened to trigger it again?

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Karen: So, you know what?

I think what happens is you get through this

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process.

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I mean, work becomes manageable.

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In fact, I'm going to say it was better than

that.

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I think it was the best thing that happened,

getting the mediator involved, because I then

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started to really enjoy my work again.

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I loved what I was doing, and life was great.

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I mean, it really was.

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And then what happened was I moved away from

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the academic environment and I went and joined

my husband in our own business.

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And then the pressures just started coming

again because not only are you trying to run

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your own business, keep all your clients

happy, but at the same time you're trying to

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professionally develop yourself.

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Plus, I took on professional organization

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responsibilities.

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So again, it just became a case of trying to

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make everybody happy and always trying to do

everything well with just not enough internal

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resources at the time.

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And then on top of all of that, um, I just

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decided I wanted to study again.

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And I studied again, not so much because I

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wanted to, but I actually knew it needed to be

done.

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And without taking something out else out of

my life, I just added something else in.

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MaryLayo: I did it on top.

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Karen: Yeah, right.

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MaryLayo: Okay, so you talked about being in

that place where you had an interest again in

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what you were doing.

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You changed in terms of your role and

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gradually started taking up more stuff, and

then you decided to do a course.

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How did you get to that place again?

Was it really about losing that passion, that

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interest?

How did you get to that place of realizing

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that you were burnt out.

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Karen: Again?

I think I had started to see the signs that I

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wasn't enjoying what I was doing.

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I was seeing it as an effort to get up and go

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to work.

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I started dreading that people would ask me to

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do things because again, you're self employed,

so you don't want to say no, but at the same

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time, you know that you should actually be

putting them off.

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It was when I started realizing that, you know

what?

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Do I really want to do this job anymore?

That I thought, I'm right back to where I was

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before.

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But unfortunately, now I was the employer as

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well as the person with burnout because I was

creating my own organizational culture and not

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putting in place all those controls that I'd

actually learned before.

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MaryLayo: Okay, so then you got to that place

of realization.

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What did you do to turn it around?

Did you go back to the counselor or what did

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you do?

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Karen: Do you know what?

I did go not to the same counselor, because

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I'd moved away.

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Yes.

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But I did go to another counselor, and I knew

I had the skills.

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I just had to gain that strength again to put

those things in place and to be able to say to

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clients, no, as much as you want me to do the

work, I don't have the capacity right now.

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But one of the things is you take on all this

work and it seems fine because you don't

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really see the bigger picture.

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And one of the things that I started doing was

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having one calendar.

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Only at that stage, you could have your work

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calendar, your social calendar, a calendar

hanging on the wall.

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And one of the things that I started to do was

consolidate them and put everything on one

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calendar.

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And one of the things I was told was respect

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your personal space as much as your workspace.

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MaryLayo: Okay.

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Karen: Which at that stage for me was very

important that I was able to give myself some

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time and not continually, relentlessly give

into these work demands that kind of sitting

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there.

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MaryLayo: I know that of you because we've

worked together.

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I know that of you in terms of how that tool,

that calendar really does help you.

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It really is a tool that you use.

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And that's a key way of you not going back to

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that place.

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In terms of burnout.

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I guess in your professional career, maybe

even in your personal life, you may have come

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across someone who, for various reasons, they

find it difficult to remove themselves from a

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toxic environment or lifestyle because of, for

example, risk.

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Of losing their job or not having progression

in their career or being intimidated by, let's

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just say, colleagues or a boss in the

workplace.

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So I'm interested to hear what your thoughts

are and if there is any advice that you've

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given or you would give to people in those

situations, particularly because you didn't

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remove yourself from that toxic environment,

but you still were able to get through it.

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So, yeah.

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Are you able to sum up anything or what you

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would say to them or what you have said to

people in the past in that situation.

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Karen: I have.

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I've had some good friends who I moved out of

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academics and they stayed there.

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And one of them in particular comes to mind

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who was really struggling in a very similar

toxic environment at work.

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Demanding Boss was actually on a part time

post but was being expected to put out full

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time outputs.

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And I would often go and sit with her.

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And first of all, I shared my experience with

her and tried to get her to make some of those

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changes that were so helpful for when I went

through Burnout and she wouldn't do them.

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And then I would say to her, why aren't you

doing it?

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And she'd just say, well, it's not the kind of

environment where you can go and say something

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like that.

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And we worked.

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And then I started to try and get her to cut

back and spend more time on herself.

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But realistically, she unfortunately doesn't

have that strength to resolve those

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organizational issues.

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And I think for her it was a much bigger

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problem, it was a much bigger department, more

people involved.

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And eventually I said to her, the only way

you're going to get through this is by walking

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away.

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And she did walk away and she is in such a

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better space.

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In fact, you know what?

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It's almost as if that was a nudge that she

needed to make a career change because she is

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now flourishing in a far healthier

environment.

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MaryLayo: Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that,

Karen.

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Because one of the things that comes to mind

is how there are people who they may be in

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such a critical situation position and it's

not helping their health and they see no other

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way out.

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They see it as they have to stay in there

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because that's what's paying their bills.

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How can they walk out when they've got so

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many, I guess, financial commitments with

people from Burnout, from what I pick up,

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they're also very ambitious and very driven

people.

381

So it doesn't sit well with them to associate

themselves to being someone that walks out.

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So it's good to hear that it's worked out well

for your friend.

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Karen: One of the things that we need to

remember is that if that problem is not

384

resolved and you continue to be the victim of

the circumstances that you find yourself in,

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it is going to end up being a situation where

you have long term health issues that are

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going to change the quality of your life

forever.

387

I mean, it's very clear that people develop

respiratory, cardiovascular, serious

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musculoskeletal disorders as a consequence of

this unrelenting stress.

389

And as hard as it is to make the decision at

the time, you've got to think about what are

390

the consequences going to be if we don't

resolve this?

391

I mean, I was foolishly one of those people in

the early days who thought it'll pass.

392

But you know, an organizational culture is not

something that just changes you need to work

393

through that.

394

So, yeah, I know it's hard, but sometimes you

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have to just make that call and walk away.

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I think that's where my faith then kind of did

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help me as well, because I've got this

approach that if one door closes, another door

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will open.

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And I know that sounds very contradictory, but

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I worked through my first experience.

401

My second experience wasn't as bad as the

402

first one in terms of symptoms, and I had a

better understanding, but at the same time, I

403

knew what I had to walk away from with the

understanding that it would be for the better

404

and I would get the spiritual support that I

needed to get through it.

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But that comes with maturity, doesn't does it?

406

MaryLayo: Does. Karen, are there any tips or

other pieces of advice that you would give to

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someone who may be listening and is currently

experiencing burnout?

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Is there anything else you'd want to share?

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Karen: I think the most important thing is for

people who can relate to this kind of syndrome

410

is go and speak to somebody.

411

Have open, honest communication with people

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that you trust.

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You need to start by talking it through so

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that you can actually find that resolution.

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That resolution may come through.

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Just getting moral support from people to give

you the courage to address the situation at

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work.

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It might be that you again need counseling

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like I did to get through it.

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But the bottom line is, it's not just going to

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go away.

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You need to acknowledge that it's a problem

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that needs to be worked through so that you at

the end of it, are going to actually be a

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healthy individual.

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You know what one of the important things is?

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There's a family around you.

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Your employer will replace you the day after

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you leave.

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Your family will never replace you.

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So kind of remember that that there are

important people on the other side of you who

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really need you to come through this.

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MaryLayo: Well, Karen, I think you've ended

this talk with giving really helpful and

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useful and I would say valuable advice and I'm

sure or I'm hoping it will help someone.

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So I really appreciate you coming on the show.

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Karen, to those of you who are listening, I

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hope that there's something you may have been

able to take away from this.

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And thank you for joining us and hope to see

you soon on Mary Life Talks.

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Karen: Thank you very much, Mary.

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MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip that

you can meditate on.

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It's Colossians, chapter one, verse eleven,

and it reads, may you be strengthened with all

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power according to his glorious might, for all

endurance and patience with joy.

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Thank you for listening.

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MaryLayo: Do follow and join me again next.

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MaryLayo: Time on Marylayo Talks Beyond the

Smile.