Today on The Rough Draft we sit down with Austin-based commercial producer, John Rains. Along with his experience in handling multi-million dollar productions, John’s impressive portfolio boasts collaborations with iconic brands like Nike, Tommy Hilfiger, Nissan, and Reebok, to name just a few. Central to John's work is his dedication to building upon Austin’s reputation as a production hub and fostering a positive on-set culture. We explore the evolving role of social media in advertising, its effects on consumer engagement, and how this shift has shaped John's approach to his projects. We also talk about the importance of networking, assembling a talented crew, and the synergy required on set to create outstanding work.

Guest Bio

John Rains is a commercial producer based in Texas. While Austin is home, he’s traveled all across Texas and the US to produce commercial work for various brands like Nissan, Nike, Tommy Hilfiger, Reebok, Ford and more. John is a partner in the rental house Convoy. Opening their doors in 2020, Convoy wanted to inject Austin with a new rental experience that prioritized quality and customer service–making Austin a destination city for commercials of all sizes. Whether through equipment being used or budgets being managed, John’s desire is to positively impact the productions he’s working on in as many ways as possible and loves doing it all here at home. 

Additional Resources

• LinkedIn: John Rains
• johnrains.net
• convoyatx.com
• Instagram: convoy_atx
• backstory.us
• Instagram: backstory.us

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- We're not all of a sudden

just gonna go underwater

for a scene when that

was like never the plan.

Like we can do it.

I can get it.

Do you have money for it?

- So you're like the general

manager for the baseball team?

- 100%, yeah.

- Got it.

- That's a very good comparison.

Our crew here work just

as hard as the crew

that work in LA and work in New York.

They've worked on jobs

just as big of scale.

There's not a project that doesn't need

to shoot a vertical crop,

and a four by five crop

and a 16 by...

I mean everything nowadays

is going on every platform in every way.

I luckily, I mean I came out the womb

like pretty confident as a human being.

(Colton laughing)

(upbeat music)

- I'm Colton Holmes

and today I'm your host

on The Rough Draft.

In this episode, I sit

down with Austin based

commercial producer John Rains.

John's impressive portfolio

boasts collaborations

with iconic brands like

Nike, Tommy Hilfiger,

Nissan and Reebok to name just a few.

Central to John's work is his dedication

to building upon Austin's

reputation as a production hub

and fostering a positive onset culture.

We explore the evolving

role of social media

and advertising, its effects

on consumer engagement

and how this shift has shaped

John's approach to his projects.

We also talk about the

importance of networking,

assembling a talented crew

and the synergy required onset

to create outstanding work.

Alright, here's my

conversation with John Rains.

(upbeat music)

All right, John, so you

and I have known each other

for five or six years now.

We've gotten to work on

a few projects together,

but getting ready for

this interview actually

I went and looked at your website,

which actually I think is the first time

I've ever looked at your website.

- Funny.

- (chuckles) And one of the first things

that just kind of jumped out to me

while looking at your site is

just all the big brand names.

And I've known that you like,

have done large projects

with these brands before,

but I've never seen it I guess

just curated in one spot.

And so yeah, I think that's

just where I wanna start off.

It's just like kind of

tell me about what that is

even like working with large brands

that are household names.

- Well, I mean from a website perspective,

you like obviously put

the coolest stuff first.

So I mean, it's not like

that's the only things I do.

But I'm gonna take advantage

of the things I have done

from a marketing point of view.

But a lot of those projects,

I mean it's the culmination I would say

of the network of things you know,

and people you know

growing over the years.

And so it's like, you know,

I mean I think when we all

get into the video world

of some extent, it's like Nike is kind of

like a dream client for everybody, right?

I feel like, at least in my world.

I come from sports and stuff

and it was like Nike was the brand

you would wanna get to work with.

And so early on I'm like DMing Nike

or emailing Nike 10 years ago

when I shot a wedding and I

have no business emailing Nike.

And you're like, hey, I'd

love to do work for you.

And they're like, they're

not gonna respond.

Like sure you would

like that's not gonna happen though buddy.

Like that's not how this works.

And then eventually over the years

you start doing other projects,

you build a better portfolio,

you start to get more

work that gets interesting

and kind of, somebody

said it to me one time,

it's like Nike finds you when

they're ready and want you.

You don't really find Nike.

Now there's other brands,

but that's not necessarily the same way.

And you can go on the

offensive a little bit

to get those projects,

but a lot of times it's like

you kind of get to do those projects

when you're ready to those projects.

And the way you get ready

is you do a lot of projects

that aren't as sexy and

aren't on the website or,

and I guess it's a little bit of both.

You also just do more projects

that make you better what you do.

So you actually are even a position

to where you are an asset to like

where they would wanna

take advantage of you.

But you know, I am not so

much the player in that stuff.

It's more the creative

who's gonna lead the way,

who's gonna get themselves the platform

of being trusted to creatively lead

whatever ad campaign's happening.

But if you're the person

that that creative trusts

and you're somebody who's

done work with that creative

as they've become a bigger deal

or you've done work with a brand

or a production company who has creatives

that they can put up and they trust you.

That's where I come in being

a producer where they trust me

to go execute the project,

to bid the project,

to run the project.

And then my portfolio matters

because I'm a fit for them.

But their portfolio's really

what gets the opportunity to begin with.

- Would you say like, obviously

you put in a ton of work

before with these smaller projects,

but then you've also started networking

with other creatives in the industry,

directors, photographers, et cetera.

Was it a combination of those that brought

those big brands to your doorstep?

The building up your portfolio,

but then also having been

networked with maybe someone

who did have their foot in the door?

- Totally. I mean, with

specifically like Nike and Reebok

and some of those jobs I've done,

like they didn't even come

to my door necessarily.

Like they came to a director,

photographer friend of mine, his door

'cause he'd been pounding

the pavement for years

and building a portfolio of his own

while he and I had done

work also on the side.

And I'd helped him with projects.

And then when he got that call,

hey, come do the shoot for Reebok,

come do the shoot for Nike.

I'm that person that then he calls

to come help make the bid, put

it together and produce it.

And so for me, there are times when

I am on the offensive and

the brands do come to me

and I put up creatives

for the opportunity.

But the flip side's true too,

where I'm not even the one

that the job's brought to,

I'm just the one who winds up

coming in to execute the job

because the job went to somebody else

through their portfolio

and their own network

and things like that.

- Let's stop there and

let's actually talk about

what it is you do, you're a

producer for these shoots.

And so, and just explain to me

what that is and what that looks like.

- Within film specifically

what a producer is

for say TV and movies is a lot different

than producers within the ad industry.

And so within my particular industry

you kind of have executive producers,

which I've worn that hat at times.

It's not a hat I currently

wear and want to wear.

It's not really my thing.

But those are the people who are out there

whining and dining and meeting people

and working with clients

and building relationships

with a lot of brands

and they're of pounding the pavement

to really connect with all

these people for opportunities.

And then one step down from

that, you have line producers,

which is what I find myself

doing majority of the time.

And we as line producers

are kind of there to guide

and write the ship through the project.

We're the point person

either for the creative team

or the point person for the brand,

point person for the agency,

whoever it is that kind of has come to us.

And we're the right hand

of the creative director,

the photographer, whoever it is

that's executing the creative side.

And we're kind of where the buck stops.

We're the ones managing

the calendar, the budgets,

the travel logistics,

the whole scope of the project

from an execution point of view.

We obviously are there to also make sure

the creative gets done

and to execute whatever

the creative vision is.

But sometimes we're there to

also put some handcuffs on

and make the creative realistic,

make it something that

we can actually get done.

Not have everybody go too overboard

with what the budget

may allow on a project.

And you know, the bigger the job,

the more help there is to keep up with it.

- Yeah. How do you go

about allocating the funds

for different aspects of the shoot?

- That's a good question.

I would say there's like

two different approaches that happen.

One, if it's kind of an open-ended,

hey we haven't done this a lot before.

We're looking to make something,

we're looking to shoot

a video for an event.

We're looking for

something that isn't like

super routine within the ad industry,

like broadcast sense.

Then you can kind of start

from scratch sometimes.

You know there may be

rates of certain crew,

there's certain standards

that we're gonna stick by

but you may or may not

need post-production.

You may or may not need talent,

you may or may not need locations.

Like some of those things

may already be a piece.

And so the budget for those kind of

more off and on situations

are just kind of based off of needs of,

hey, you're trying to get X, Y, Z done,

here's what you have available to you,

here's what you don't

have available to you.

Here's what those things are gonna cost.

And you know, knowing

what they cost come from

just years of reps and knowing things.

On the flip side, for

broadcast and ad agency work,

which is the majority of what I do,

there are a lot of standards.

There's a lot of just the way

things go in our industry.

There's obviously unions in some states

and well in all states,

but some states are more

union guided than others.

And in those spaces, like rates

are completely predefined.

In Texas, it's a lot

of non-union work just

'cause we're a right to work state,

which means you don't have to be

in a union to do union work

so it's a little bit more flexible here,

but there's still a lot of norms

in terms of what department

handle what tasks.

You're not gonna go ask somebody

in the lighting department

to start decorating the background.

You're not gonna go ask somebody

in camera department to put up a light.

Like there's small jobs,

a lot of people wear a lot of hats

and we've all probably come

from that world at some point.

But as things scale like that

becomes an understood norm

that that's not the case,

especially within the ad industry.

So with those things you

kind of start building out

the blueprint of what's the backbone

of all the expectations of a shoot

within the various departments.

And then you start

slotting in all the money

and then you realize they

either have as much money

as you're gonna need for the vision

or we're gonna start tweaking the vision

to fit how much money you have.

And you know, can we really go

to five locations in one day?

'Cause that's a lot of location moves,

which takes a lot of time

that you're not shooting.

Or should we get this

down to two locations,

which is less money in locations budget

and we can actually get this done on time.

And so all that becomes

part of the seesaw.

- What is the biggest budget

that you've worked with on a project?

- Directly 2 million, indirectly like 3.5.

- Really? Wow.

- Yeah.

- And you handled that entire--

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- That's a lot of money.

- It's a lot of money.

It's a lot of money.

And when those jobs happen,

I mean there's a lot of versions

of what million dollar projects look like,

but with those projects that could mean

that you're shooting one day

and it is absolutely gigantic.

Could also mean you're

shooting for 25 days

and each day is really not that crazy

you're just shooting a long time,

and the dollar amount doesn't always mean

how big the job is

'cause you gotta kind of context

of how many days you actually

fit into that budget.

- So you really good at handling

your own budget at home?

- Yeah. Yeah.

So my mom was an

accountant when I was a kid

and she ended up switching over to--

- Connecting some dots.

- To working a little bit different.

Yeah. But I mean there's budgets fit

in my family my entire life.

It's just kind of fun--

- It runs in the family, it's in your DNA.

- It runs in the family, you learn it,

it becomes part of who you are.

- You are destined to be a producer.

- Yeah, definitely.

And you know, my wife can

attest to the at-home budgets

that we also stick to (laughs)

- Going back to working

with the creatives.

What does that back and

forth look like between,

stewarding the vision but

also stewarding the budget?

Like how does that go?

Kind of walk me through.

- In the commercial world,

a lot of times the creative

directors or photographers,

like they're not even the ones

who have come up with the vision,

the ad agencies come up with the vision.

And so the vision's pretty set.

Like there's gonna be an iteration

and an execution point of

view that's gonna change,

but it's not as open-ended,

everything's not an option.

We're not all of a sudden just gonna go

underwater for a scene when

that was like never the plan.

Like, you know, someone may throw it out

and we can throw out an overage

to get more budget to do it,

but like you're not gonna

get as many curve balls.

For me it's more, you know,

you're making a bid initially

that is saying, hey,

for X amount of money,

for X amount of days

we can pull off whatever

you're trying to do.

This director here has done

that kind of stuff before.

They know how to execute and do it

and they're gonna add spice and vision

to like make your idea come to life.

Thankfully I'm not in the

position all too often

of a concept and a budget

that just like don't work.

But everything naturally

creeps in scope as you go.

And so, oh, what if we added a drone?

What if we do this?

What if we do that?

And so it's like sometimes

you have room to wiggle

and add things that weren't

necessarily planned on.

Other times it's the

hard conversations of,

unless there's more budget to go there,

it's not in scope.

- What about when something's

maybe like out of your control

that just has to change budgets

and you then ends up sacrificing

some of the creative vision.

- It definitely happens

on every job and like,

from a client perspective,

they don't even see some of

that stuff a lot of the time.

'Cause it may be this

one location was perfect

and was gonna be in budget

and all of a sudden they're pulling out,

they're not able to accommodate,

the dates don't work whatever,

and the backup locations

twice as expensive.

Well, we as a production

said we get 'em a location,

we have to make that work.

But if it's more money,

where's that money coming from?

Well, now we're gonna have

to pull from somewhere else

and you just kind of

have to keep allocating.

To me, I'm always looking at like,

what are the core pieces

that have to exist?

You know is this concept

driven off of the location

that we need to get and it

has to be a downtown rooftop

and so at all costs get a downtown rooftop

or is it a location where

it's wardrobe needs to be

everybody in suits and ballroom gowns

and so you have to put the money in

and you can't go cheap

'cause cheap suits and ball room gowns,

like aren't really a thing, you know?

And so you kind of get an idea of like,

what is the core stuff

that has to get the money

and then where are the places

that you can value engineer a little bit?

And then you kind of start to get an idea

as a producer the more you do it.

And like there's certain things

that you can eat more easily,

pull money from and then

other things where it's like,

it is what it is.

You can't always find a deal everywhere.

Sometimes it costs what it costs.

- If and when you've gone over budget

or the production has gone over budget,

who has that conversation with the client?

Is that your responsibility

in that scenario?

- Yeah, it's definitely my responsibility.

I mean that's definitely like,

that's the producer's job

is when the job's going,

are we staying in scope?

And if we're not, what

are we doing about it?

How are we fixing it?

In my world, the term is overage.

Like if we're going over budget

because of something that you've requested

that wasn't originally in scope,

I'm gonna come to you

with an overage saying,

hey, love that we wanna go

under water all of a sudden,

underwater cameras and rigs

are gonna cost $10,000 a day

for underwater scuba

tanks and all this stuff.

We can do it. I can get it.

Do you have money for it?

And if the answer's no, then it's like,

hey, I'm not gonna just

tell you I can go get it

and be like, oh, I'm over budget now.

It's like you didn't tell me

we needed to have that.

The flip side of that though is,

you could not have any

special requests come in.

Clients not asking for anything

you didn't already say you're doing,

you just made a bad bid,

you made a bad budget,

things are getting more

expensive than you can do.

Well, then that's more of

an internal conversation

on our end of like,

how do you start fixing that?

I've luckily to this

point, never had anything

where it's just ballooned and blown up

and become a thing where like,

oh gosh, when I'm said and done,

I'm 50,000 over budget and

I like couldn't fix it.

And like, I like to

work with directors also

who understand that you have

to kind of yo-yo with a job

and there's only so many resources

because if you start fighting

against each other then like,

it's just an uphill battle at that point

and it's hard to win for everybody.

- So as a producer on these large shoots

with these big brands,

what kind of pressure does that bring?

Is there any pressure that

you're feeling working with,

a Nike or a Reebok or a Nissan?

- You know, it's funny.

I mean there's pressure on

every job to perform and do it.

The pressure I feel though is,

honestly it's the jobs

that have less resources

than they maybe should have.

And it's really scrappy and

it's the pressure of like,

are we gonna hit like a landmine

we didn't know was coming?

And like have to pivot

because the bigger some of those jobs get,

they're really demanding.

They really want a lot of stuff,

but they typically also

come with some of the money

and resources needed to do it.

You just have to know how to ask for it,

know how to plan for it

and not be caught off guard

with what's gonna come.

And so on those jobs,

like yes, the big ones sound

like a lot of pressure,

but I personally experience

less pressure on those jobs

because I have the

resources to pull things off

and you're not giving

million dollar budgets

to a creative who doesn't

know what they're doing.

Like they're gonna have

a lot of experience.

And so the smaller budgets

with less experienced creative,

those to me inherently have more pressure.

- What about like a pressure

for things to go well,

whether that's in your hands as a producer

or in the creative hands

with the end goal of

getting another project from this brand

or setting yourself up for another brand

that might see this work and?

- Yeah, I definitely feel the pressure

for the job to feel smooth.

Like I want everybody to

walk away feeling like

that was a great experience.

I luckily, I mean I came out the womb

like pretty confident as a human being.

Like I don't really

struggle too much with like

from a confidence point of

view of like feeling pressure

that like we can get it done.

Like I always feel like

I can get something done.

If you're a producer,

you probably should have that confidence

or else like you're gonna fight

a whole different set

of battles than I fight.

But I still like whether I get it done

and it's smooth or whether I get it done

and it was a mess if I get it smooth

and everybody was smiling on set,

it was smooth but it was really stressful.

Like that to me is the pressure of like,

we wanna get it done and get it done

where it was enjoyable versus get it done

and it's like everybody was pulling teeth

and everybody's fighting on set

and yeah, our department doesn't agree

with the lighting department.

It's like I want that synergy to exist.

And so like there's pressure

there I guess to like know

that you're putting the

right pieces together

in the right way so that the

way you made it also felt good.

- Yeah. How have you

learned to put the right

pieces in place?

- Oh, when I'm working local

to where I live in Austin,

a lot of reps you find the

crew that vibe with you

and you know, like my sets,

the way they run look

a little bit different

than other producers and the sets they run

and their sets are good sets too.

Like everybody does a little bit different

but like the energy and vibe

that like I kind of hire crew,

I wanna make sure that everybody

kind of fits that same mold

because then they all

work really well together.

And like I think finding that synergy

is a big piece of it.

When you're traveling in other markets

for me that's where working

with like local production help

and like my department growing

and having some locals on

the ground really helps.

Because I rely on them to get a read on

what crew work really well together,

but I have to make sure

I find the right local

who's gonna vibe with me.

That then creates the whole

crew kind of working together.

It's the riskiest scariest

jobs to me are always

going to a market that

I don't know very well,

haven't worked a lot in,

getting a bunch of random names

and like you have no idea

what that fit's gonna look like

and the smaller the job, the

more it matters for sure.

Just 'cause people have to wear more hats

and you have to just have buy-in

from the crew to pull things off.

- So you're like the general

manager for the baseball team?

- 100%. Yeah.

- Got it.

- That's a very good comparison.

(Colton laughing)

- Okay. So we've talked

about all these big projects

with really large budgets,

but you mentioned to me last week

your favorite project

that you've worked on

was a spec project.

- Yep.

- Can you talk to me about that.

First of all, tell me

what a spec project is

and then also tell me about

that specific project.

- I mean, a spec project

at the end of the day is making a project

that doesn't actually have

a real client attached to it

and you're making it as a proof of concept

for portfolio piece to

then go after clients.

Not because you're trying to fake

that that customer was

a customer of yours,

but you're trying to prove,

hey, if this was our customer,

look what we could have made.

Look how we could have been trusted.

Well, all of a sudden you

might get someone's attention

and now you do have those things

that can create those conversations

and create those opportunities.

But when you look at like,

for me at least a short film compared

to like a spec project,

you're getting a bunch of crew together

to kind of make a passion project

to make something that

is somewhat favor based

and you're pulling in all these people

who you may have in your network

to go make something that

isn't even necessarily

for me as a producer,

it's more for the director

to make for their portfolio.

And then if they get a job,

then I would come along

with them as the producer.

And so I've done multiple,

but one of my favorite projects,

it's like the first thing on our website

is one of those spec projects

because at the end of the day you watch it

and you're like, oh, that looks like

a really cool Coke commercial.

Coke didn't give us that creative.

We came up with that.

It was his vision.

And since then he's now a

full-time commercial director.

It's what he does for a living.

He segued from being in the

production department with me

to being a director now.

But until you make that project

that makes everyone realize,

oh wow, like that looks

like a Coke commercial.

It's like yeah.

And then other brands now

have come along and said,

that does look a Coke commercial,

now make a Samsung commercial for us,

now make a Gordon's commercial for us.

Like that director's gone on

to put all these other

projects into his portfolio now

and Coke's one of many,

but it's still the first

thing he leads with

'cause it's still the

project he's most proud of.

And that budget was

$12,000 or whatever it was.

Whereas you actually

get a client involved,

you pay all the crew the way

that a job would really go,

that might be three, $400,000.

And so all the crew now are

getting hired back on jobs.

They're getting opportunities

and so everybody kind of

rises with that opportunity.

But yeah, it's the

beginning of the opportunity

to even get a seat at the table.

- What do you think about that

project in the final product

makes it one of the projects

that you're most proud of

and that he's most proud of,

the director's most proud of?

- I mean, there's a

element of that project

where there's no legal

team in video games.

Like every brand has the things

that they really care about.

And so when you don't know

all those things in a project,

there's probably some

things you can get away with

and put on screen in a spec that like,

man, this looks really great.

Well they would've never approved

that necessarily in village.

But when we're sitting

there making a spec,

that's my job is to sit

there, watch, monitor,

and try to think of all the things

that they would be picky about.

Like no labels turned to the side

because no brand would

have their label skew.

Like you're trying to think

of all the things that

they would give you notes about in village

so it looks proper,

but you kind of get this creative freedom.

Like you get that access to

being like a narrative director

because it's whatever vision you have,

but you have to still live

within the guidelines of like,

what would that brand realistically make?

And so like if you're gonna go do coke,

they're all about family.

They're all about sharing.

They're all about like

the positive culture.

If you don't create something

that fits all those things,

then the ad you're gonna make in the end

is gonna be like, yeah, that's a spec.

Like the goal of the spec is that

you can't tell it's a spec.

Because in the end it's

like, I could see that on TV

that feels like that brand.

If you can tell that it's like not as good

as that brand would make,

the camera quality is kind of crappy.

The art doesn't feel right.

There's a bunch of blue

colors in the spot,

which is Pepsi, which they

would never let you do.

Like everyone's gonna know

that, like that project

doesn't actually work.

And so if you're gonna make a spec,

you get that opportunity to

kind of give your take on it,

but you gotta make it good enough.

And we did, it sells through

as a project that looks the part.

And so there's that element of for $12,000

you pull off what usually

takes a few hundred,

I mean there's just a

certain pride for us in that.

- I would imagine there's a

lot of comradery in the crew

on something like that because

it is a passion project

that you're all trying

to lift each other up

and build each other up in this project.

- Totally.

- Tell me a little bit about

like the collaboration

on this specific project.

Like what did that look like

between you and the

director or the crew or?

- I mean he had come to me.

He had been one of my

production supervisors,

like my right hand for a number of years.

And he was like, hey, I wanna

like get into directing.

And he had done music videos

and a couple fun things

but he hadn't like commercially

gotten into that world yet.

And so whenever he was like,

yeah, I wanna make like a spec,

I wanna do something to

get started in that world,

I was like, all right, let's do it.

Like, I mean like, I'm not

gonna do that for everybody.

Like he was somebody I

was just very close to

and I wanted to help do that.

It was very collaborative in the sense of

whatever you wanna try to get done,

I'll try to make it happen.

But it was my collaboration

looked more like,

hey, this part of the script,

this brand wouldn't do,

this would be a flag.

This is something they would call out.

They wouldn't portray

things this way or that way.

Our department needs to have

these colors, not these colors.

It's I'm playing that client role

but he's pulling in as

many favors from friends

and people and crew as I am.

And it's people that we'd

hired and worked with a bunch

and it's like, all right,

let's put those people

in an opportunity to like

help him make something.

But the second he is gonna get a job,

who's gonna get the calls back?

In every way we can help it in our power

we're gonna put those jobs

back through the same group.

- Have there been a lot of projects

that have come out of that spec project

that you've gotten to work on?

- Yeah. I mean my goal at the

end of the day is to like,

if I'm gonna invest in you as a director,

like I wanna help you

and I'm doing it like,

because I care about the

person I'm helping with.

I also hope that if you get

a directing career going

that when they say, hey do

you wanna produce the job?

Like you want me to do it?

Like that's awesome

and if I can sell the job

and do that like that.

It's definitely a piece

of it and that's happened.

But it's all about opportunity

in creating opportunities

for yourself and you know,

if you don't have a

certain portfolio piece,

you don't have certain relationships,

you don't get certain jobs

that could have come in.

And so it's all just kind of part of

building the network you know.

- And I think that point

kind of speaks into why y'all

are so proud of that project.

'Cause it was friends helping friends

and doing something

that y'all cared about--

- And it worked.

- And like y'all,

yeah, wanted to see each other succeed.

So we've talked a lot

about where you are now.

I wanna talk about how you got here.

So starting off as a

freelance videographer

to starting your own production company

to now doing commercial productions.

Walk me through that story

of like how you got to each.

- Well, step one was 13-year-old

me pink shirt food court.

Meeting my first clients as a deejay.

- Okay (laughs)

Mall Food Court?

- Mall Food Court yeah.

In eighth grade went to the school dance.

We didn't love the deejay.

My friends and I were like,

we're gonna fix this.

Next year, eighth grade dance happens,

they're like cool career's done.

And I was like, no, this is

the beginning of an empire.

And so at the end of the day,

like I'm not usually the idea

guy in most of my stories,

I'm like the execution

guy in most of my stories.

And so producing is a

very good role for me

'cause I have ideas to

iterate on the main idea

that came from somebody else typically.

But yeah, we did the job

and after that I'm like,

I'm an entrepreneur baby.

And so put it on Craigslist

and say like, I'm a wedding deejay,

I'm a whatever deejay and somebody called,

'cause it was for 30 bucks

or whatever price I put up

and said, meet me in the Food Court.

I'll wear my pink shirt

so you don't miss me.

And I should have said I was 13 also

or whatever it was at the time.

And so they found me and

somehow stuck with it.

I guess they had $30 so they

had to like make it work.

And I did that all through college.

And then at some point I'm in music videos

and I'm like, oh, I

should make a music video.

And so I get a camera,

start shooting music videos.

I would shoot weddings,

I'd shoot events, I'd shoot music videos.

And at some point I was like,

all right, I wanna find where

there's some money in this

and I wanna find how to not

be the one who has to shoot it

and edit it and like talk to talent

and do all these things that

other people think is great

but I think it's like the

worst part of the job.

And so I realized that like

the commercial industry

was kind of the beginning of

where those opportunities

and budgets were.

And met a few people who

were specialists as a DP,

as an editor, as a director.

And so I was like, great,

I'll start selling jobs to these people

and we'll work together as a unit.

And we were in Florida at the time

right after I graduated college

and did that for a few years,

kind of built a company

and was selling a

production company model.

Had a client here in Austin

that I would travel for all the time.

And that was kind of the beginning of like

a lot of commercial

stuff developing for me.

And ended up, we all

wanted to move to Austin

and we'd been coming here for projects.

And so we relocated here

and at some point, you know, COVID hits

and it shakes everybody's world.

Which at that point I had had

ideas of doing other things,

but I hadn't fully figured

out what that meant.

And COVID is gonna decide

for you to some extent

what that year was gonna look like.

And so I was getting calls for saying,

"Hey, can you support our job coming in

"just on the backend and be freelance?"

And I had never been

asked to do that before

in that exact capacity.

I hadn't really even thought about

doing something like that.

And the second I did it, I

was like, man, this is great.

Like I would much rather

be a freelance person

than somebody who's

always outselling the jobs

'cause that EP hat

it's not my skillset, it's not my thing.

I'm just, I'm a very detail

oriented, run the project,

keep it on track type of person.

- So Backstory, your

production company still exists

as a production or

still exists as a brand?

- Yeah, as a brand.

Because Backstory, when I moved here,

that's when I started it.

It was a production company.

I had directors, I had a roster,

I was selling it, I was getting reps.

Like all of that was my game plan.

And I learned two things.

One, I don't like being that side.

Like I wanna be able to sell me for me,

and maybe that's a little selfish,

but like, I'm a really good producer.

I'm not the creative.

And when you sell the creatives

and you're selling the directors,

I can pitch on their behalf,

but they're as good as they are

and they're as good at

pitching as they are.

And I can't guarantee

that I'm gonna get a job if

they don't close the deal

on their creative side of things.

And so I wanted to have a little bit more

direct role in helping

and not being part of the

creative pitch as much.

And so we got rid of the whole

formal production company side

and switched it to what

a production service

company more looks like.

And that term's used more

internationally where,

hey, we're headed to Ireland,

let's hire a local company

who is backend fixer production logistics,

but we're bringing the creative side.

And so I kind of took that model

and I've domesticated

it a little bit where,

we don't do it quite the exact same way,

but it's the same idea of

bringing in the production support

to aid the creative team

who started the job.

- So one thing that you

mentioned earlier is like

the industry is driven by

the creatives, not the doers,

but you are a doer that wants to be

in the creative industry.

That just seems to be the thread

through your story is

you just get it done.

Like you have a goal

and a mindset and you

just go and do it, right?

- Yeah. Yeah.

- Tell me a little bit

about how that's played out

in the creative industry being

the doer amongst creatives.

- At the end of the day,

the creative talks, right?

Like the directors are what sell.

The photographers are what sell.

The directors are who bid

the jobs with the ad agency.

They're the ones in the treatment calls,

they're the ones creating reference decks

and treatments and pitches.

And then if they get

entrusted with the job,

you know on the backend

we're helping make bids

and budgets to support them.

But the creatives are

ultimately who get awarded jobs.

The doers are the ones

who then help do the jobs.

And that's my role.

That's what I am.

I creatively problem solve,

but I'm not necessarily the most

creative person in the world.

I take someone's initial idea

and I can iterate it to get it done.

I can iterate it to make sure

we're getting the right

version of it done.

But like the initial concept

has never been like

where my strength lies.

And so within that I had

to kind of find a way

to build my network and my clients

and all those types of

things with people where

I could put myself kind

of advertised in a way

where it's like I'm a really good doer

and I'm aligning myself with

the people who need doers

versus putting myself in a position

which I was as an EP at the

beginning and I was young.

I mean as an EP the best EPs

are really good at sales,

they're really good at connecting people,

they're really good at

identifying what you need

and who can I help give you

to make something happen.

But a lot of them are

also 20,30 year veterans

and they just have a huge network.

And whenever you're young

and you don't have a huge network

and you're trying to get indoors,

and you're trying to

meet the right creatives,

it's just a weird spot to be.

And I found myself like,

hey, I may not be the best fit there

but I am a pretty good fit of,

let me go get the job done.

And so I kind of moved over.

- What do you think is your

biggest asset as a producer?

Is it your network?

Is it your experience with budgeting?

Is it just your overall

experience in the industry?

Like is it a tool or?

- Yeah, I think like you

obviously you have to know

how to make a calendar,

you have to know how to manage a budget,

you have to know how to do those things.

But like every job's gonna

have a calendar and a budget.

And so that's more of like,

there's no secret sauce there necessarily.

It's like there's levels

of being good at it,

but it's not like you could or couldn't.

Like that's a necessity.

I think a lot of what

makes you a good producer

is if you're working in your home market,

it's the network and team

that you've built

comradery with and trust.

And like you can pull

together this group of people

to make something where

someone else coming in

can't pull together that same group

to get the same end product.

That's a huge piece of it.

And then I think the other end product

is just understanding,

like you have to be able to break down

what the project's trying to get done,

what the things are that are

the truest, highest priorities

and what the things are

that could be the biggest distractions.

And making sure that you're

allocating resources,

whether it's time, money, crew, whatever,

to get the important stuff

dealt with first and best

and not the thing that comes up

that everybody thinks is a fire drill

and oh, this has come up in a meeting

and everybody's freaking out

over what color purse are

we gonna put on the talent.

But at the end of the day,

the purse actually gets sat on

the ground and in the scene,

like the purse didn't really matter.

But if you get sidetracked

you could put way too much

effort into like the wrong thing.

And so you have to like

keep everybody focused

on the things that actually matter.

Like that I think is--

- And I think it speaks again back to

your experience on that.

Let's just go back to the

Coca-Cola spec project.

Like the investment of

people that you care about

and like want to see succeed

in building a network

and being able to bring all those people

into the right project

and be able to have synergy and create,

extract the best work from this team

that is the right team for this project.

- I think the way you do that,

there's a lot of pieces to it.

There's no like magic pill necessarily.

But phase one is when you budget projects,

are you budgeting properly

so people are paid properly?

So they're paid rates that

are current with the industry?

Or are you the person who always comes in

and undercuts everybody and wants a deal

and wears everybody out?

Okay, so now everybody

has a good rate hopefully.

For me that's kind of

like a non-negotiable.

And I tell that to people

who bring me into jobs.

It's like, if your rates aren't right,

I'm gonna fix the rates.

But the next side is how

are you to work with,

are you enjoyable to work with?

Are you always yelling at everybody

or are you collaborative,

or are you supportive of people?

You know there's so many elements

to the way you work with

building that network

with how you treat people

and support people.

And that whole dynamic becomes a part of

how you build that environment where

I don't really have to

have rate conversations,

I don't have to have

budget scope conversations

with a lot of the crew I

work with all that often

because we all like, we

know we're on the same page

and we're know we're gonna

treat each other right.

And if this one's a little bit tighter,

like this is the exception, not the norm.

And so that's something I try to make sure

we kind of keep within check.

- So social media has started

changing the landscape

of the way consumers

engage with advertisements.

- To say the least.

- Yeah. Well I mean, tell me

how that's affected your role

as a producer and maybe

how you attack projects

or even just what projects look like now.

- Yeah, I mean there's not a project

that doesn't need to

shoot a vertical crop,

and a four by five crop and a 16 by...

I mean everything nowadays

is going on every platform in every way.

And what's interesting is

at the beginning it was,

hey, take the broadcast ad,

make it vertical and stick it on TikTok.

Well then you start to realize

you put that broadcast ad on TikTok

and no one engages with it.

You need to make content for the platform.

And so now every campaign's evolved to,

you have a TikTok concept,

you have an Instagram concept,

you have like all these different concepts

to make all the media play work

and all the places it needs to go.

Doesn't mean you have more days,

doesn't always mean you have more time.

Doesn't mean you have the talent

for longer than you already planned.

So now all of a sudden,

how do you start fitting

everything into a day?

So like the question becomes

within whatever you have,

how do you give each asset enough time?

How do you give each asset enough respect?

You know, there's been a lot of shoots

where you're shooting video

and photo also needs to

get done at the same time.

But photo, hey, just

shoot over my shoulder.

Just get it done.

It's like, okay, well

some jobs that works.

There's other jobs where it's like,

well photo needs time to

get what their assets are

for this campaign to work,

but how do we share a set?

How do we share a spot?

But that's an ask on everything now.

And so the whole social game...

And there's campaigns that

are only going to social now,

whereas that used to like

not so much be a thing.

And so every job it's a component now

and there's more content needed

because there's more

platforms to put content on,

but there's not necessarily more budget

to make all the extra

content all the time.

And so as budgets get a little tighter

or the ask of things has to

fit within the same budget

that last year didn't

have a social ask as well.

It's just how do you

allocate the resources again

to make everything that's being requested

but also not be unrealistic.

- Has that been fun for you to

figure that new dynamic out?

Or has it been less painful?

- Ask commercial producers

how fun the photo social content is

and you're gonna generally

hear the answer is no.

I honestly do enjoy when

there is a unique concept

that we are making something

and everybody from the

beginning understands like,

we have to go make this

separate TikTok script

and we're gonna give three

hours of our day to make this.

What's really hard is the jobs that say,

hey, we're here to make this broadcast.

It's gonna take the full

three days to do it.

Also, we need a bunch of photo stuff

and we don't only have

time for them we know,

but like figure it out.

Unfortunately, there's campaigns

where you don't find out till later

that there's other components,

or they're gonna bring a social unit

that's separate from the

main team to do that.

And you just like don't

know that that's coming yet.

And that becomes challenging

'cause how do you factor that in?

But the jobs where you

know it from the beginning,

it is fun 'cause it's like,

its whole own thing that you can plan

and build it accordingly

to make it go well.

- Sure. Yeah. Talking about challenges

and maybe things that are

frustrating in your experience.

You and a friend of ours, Keaton.

Started a rental house company

in Austin called Convoy.

Talk to me about like

where that came from, why you built it.

- In Florida where I lived,

there was no market originally.

So I would just buy equipment at times.

The things that I couldn't

borrow from friends

who also owned stuff.

There was no rental market there.

And when I moved here it was like,

cool, I own some stuff,

may as well use it,

but I don't own traditional stuff.

I don't own full packages,

I don't own the expensive lights,

I just own the basic stuff.

'Cause also the jobs kept growing,

which meant the lights

and things you need on

the job were growing.

And so I was like

growing out of what I had

and COVID hits, we end

up on a job together

for like four months straight

the entire summer doing streaming jobs.

And we sat there talking

and he had a vision of,

I've been getting into some equipment

trying to formalize it more.

And I was like, yeah, you know,

I've got equipment, you've used it before.

Like it could be better.

You know, we could

figure this out together.

And eventually after

months of sitting there

and both of us kind of using

COVID as a time to figure out

what we wanted to do with

this equipment we both had,

we realized we should

be doing it together.

'Cause he's a gaffer,

so he leads the lighting department.

I'm a producer, I lead

the production department.

I have certain needs,

he has certain needs.

We have mutual needs on jobs

where we're working together

and we could service ourselves.

And so it started with

let's just combine forces

and formalize what we already are doing.

And then it just kept

growing and it kept scaling.

And so now it's turned into

a rental fleet of 10 vehicles

and a warehouse full of equipment

and we're still growing it.

That's the goal long term is it's,

you know a staple in the

Austin industry here.

- It also gives you, I would

assume just a little bit

of maybe not a leg up,

but it makes your job as a producer

a little bit more efficient

because you have control

over this entire aspect

of your job, right?

- Yeah. It's hard to go

over budget to yourself

which is very convenient.

And like there's jobs that come in

that are even beyond the

scope of a we can handle.

I have a job coming up

in a month that like,

I don't even know if anybody

in the state can handle,

like there's jobs where that happens

because this isn't LA,

we try to do as best we can

and when we started the company,

there was other rentals that were here,

but we wanted to set like

the top of the market

'cause on my jobs, I wanna

give people an experience

that makes them think

Austin's a destination city

to come shoot and it's equal to that

of New York and LA,

which to some extent I can

control to some extent I can't.

And so when we started the company,

we were like, if we're gonna go for it,

we're not going to be another option

anywhere from mid to low

tier of what we're bringing.

Like we wanna set like the upper tier

of what this city can have.

And I want that to become

part of the Austin reputation.

I want everybody to start

using it as much as they want.

It's not just for us

because if everybody's using it,

even if it's not my job,

it's creating a reputation

for Austin as a destination.

And so that became our focus.

And I obviously use it on my own jobs.

It's a really helpful resource

and that's where that always

pulls in for what I'm doing.

But like I said,

it's, you know, oh gosh, we

have to kind of squeeze in

a couple extra things.

I can make my budgets work

because I'm not gonna screw myself.

- So does that give you

like a leg up against other

maybe competition out there?

- I mean, it's a good question

and to some extent yes, to some extent no,

because the other people who

work with me a lot in town

that do what I do,

they're customers of mine

and I give them the same deals I make.

It's like I want their

reputation in Austin to be

that you can come in with

good realistic budgets,

but when you have that,

you're gonna get it done.

You're not gonna all of

a sudden just be like,

the vendors here are so difficult

and there's only one person

who has mediocre stuff

and it's super expensive,

so why do we shoot there?

Like I want everybody to walk

away with the same experience.

And so the same way that like,

I can solve my own problems,

it's like I'm here to

solve their problems too.

And so I wouldn't say like,

my mindset is definitely

not to get a leg up

over anybody else to like get more deals

than them and work things

and to kind of like

monopolize by any means.

But my mindset's definitely

much more in the idea of

can I problem solve a lot quicker

because I don't have to ask a vendor

to get on board with what my problem is

because I control fixing the problem.

From that perspective,

I can streamline things in a way that

it's part of the strategy I guess.

- It's interesting perspective

of you attacking that with the mindset of

being a force for a

production culture in Austin.

- It's like probably the biggest part

of the mission to be on.

I mean it's the same way,

like I talked to the other

producer people in town too.

It's like we talk about rates,

it's like if we dictate

what the market rates are,

fair rates, I mean we're not

sitting here saying like,

we're gonna come in and just set a rate

that's the highest in the industry.

Our crew here work just

as hard as the crew

that work in LA and work in New York.

They've worked on jobs

just as big of scale,

budgets the same scale.

Now there may be more

volume in a city like LA

that has so many resources

and volume of shoots

that happen there but the crew here

who are in the exact same position

doing the exact same thing,

deserve the exact same livable

wage that they're getting.

They shouldn't be cheaper

just 'cause they're in another market.

And we are one of the

busiest commercial markets

because Austin's a cool destination city.

It's an artsy city.

We have weather.

Good luck shooting up

north in this time of year.

Like that's just part of what you do.

Why people come to Austin.

And so we all talk, it's like,

yeah, if we don't undercut rates here,

then this market is sustainable.

People here respect everybody.

The crew here stay here

because it's livable to live here.

If the crew get undercut,

guess what they're gonna do?

Eventually they're gonna get sick of it,

they're gonna leave.

Then who do you put on your jobs?

How do you get jobs done with technicians

that are any good at what they do

if the equipment's not any good?

Like you have to create

the sustainable culture

and I wanna rise the whole thing.

It's like I want everybody's

experience here to be like

it is as good or better

than somewhere else

versus when you go there, it's like,

it's the bootleg version of

getting a commercial done.

And so like, otherwise it's like

there are other rental

companies out there.

There have been in

Austin, in other cities,

we're not reinventing the wheel

and renting lights that other

people don't already rent.

It's the packaging of how we do it,

and the way we do it

and the big picture of all

the things that tie together

with the way that I'm approaching it,

that is like, that's the

reason we're doing it.

- So between Convoy,

your Commercial Production

Service of Backstory,

and you being a commercial producer,

you've got a lot on your plate.

And I imagine delegating

is like a big necessity

between all of those things.

- You learn it one way or another.

(both laughing)

- Tell me a little bit about

like your first philosophy of delegating

and any advice that you would

give to a creative out there,

or just anyone in the industry

that might be resisting the delegation.

Because I know for me,

that's been one of the

hardest things for me is

giving up a part of my

process because I trust me

and it's hard for me

to trust other people.

- I'm sure somebody out there

would say delegating is easy.

I don't think delegating

ever becomes like super easy,

but the beginning is

the hardest to delegate.

And I mean, for me, it was

almost out of necessity

that I started to

delegate at the beginning,

just from volume of

things to keep up with.

But I just kind of, I sat

down very practically.

I'm a very logical person.

And I said, great, all

these things fill up my day

and I get overwhelmed

with the amount of things I have to do.

Which thing do I not like doing?

Which thing am I not skilled at doing?

And that even goes back to

like my videographer days

getting out of it.

It's like, I don't like talking to talent.

I don't like editing.

I don't like shooting.

It's like I wanted to do

the thing I liked doing

and then until I could bring people in

to make it where that's

the only thing I do,

then I didn't have to

worry about delegating

until I had too much of just that to do.

And then I had to continue

the delegation process.

And so now between the rental house

and production staff, like

I've got teams on both sides

and we're pretty niched.

Like, I don't do all the

things I don't like doing.

Pretty much everything I focus on

and even my team focuses on

are things that I enjoy doing.

I've niched down to where like,

we don't do things we don't like doing

and we don't touch post production at all.

I just am out of those in

fields of this in general now.

But within that, the

delegation comes down to me

to like entrusting people

with a lot of autonomy.

It's up to them to have work ethic.

It's up to them to bring the A game.

I'm gonna tell you, I

expect the work ethic.

I'm gonna like, that's

gonna be an expectation.

It's not like it's an

optional work ethic thing,

but it's up to you to

decide you wanna bring it.

And if you don't, then probably

not gonna stay working together.

And if you do, then I'll

keep entrusting you.

And so it's like, I give

people the platform to show me

that I can delegate to them.

And if they step up then they

realize what that looks like.

And if they don't, then I

don't entrust them with as much

and out of necessity I have

to have the team support at this point.

But it's also you're never

100% out of anything.

It's 80% or whatever I can

to have them handle the majority of it.

And then I'm keeping

eyes for quality control

and whatever else.

- Yeah. And I think it's

hard to get to the point

where you realize that delegation

is going to lead to a better product

because you are handing

things off to maybe people

who are better at that part

of the production than you are.

Or it frees you up to

really focus in on the important things

rather than being stuck in the mud

on these things that are

keeping you away from

the thing that you're best at.

And so it's really hard

to get out of that mindset

and just trust people with things

and ultimately lead to a better product.

- The only way to do it is to just do it.

(both laughing)

I mean that's like my

motto for life, right?

Is like you can wanna get

whatever you want in life,

but no one's gonna give it to you.

No one's gonna give you somebody

that you can fully trust and delegate to.

No one's gonna give you

like a qualified worker,

no one's gonna give you a job.

It's like you have to set

yourself up to create those things

and you have to just kind

of freaking go for it

and rip the bandaid off

and see what happens,

and eventually either works or it doesn't,

and then you continue pivoting

and if you get stuck

overthinking it then--

- And that's why Nike was

a great client for you,

just do it.

- Yeah. That's a good point.

- Bad joke. Just do it.

(both laughing)

Alright. So we've talked a lot about

just how you've gotten

to where you are today

and all the experiences

that have led to that.

And so taking a look back at

step one of deejaying in a

pink shirt meeting in the mall

to where you are now,

what do you think was one

of the biggest mistakes

that you made that you maybe learned

the biggest lesson from,

or one of the biggest challenges you faced

that affected the

trajectory of your career?

- I'll give two answers to this

because I feel like there's

a like specific story

that comes to mind, but there's also like

a general career takeaway

that I still battle with

that is probably like the root

answer to a lot of things.

Diving off of specifically

the delegation topic.

Did a job a few years ago,

admittedly, was not

really given full scope

of what was gonna

ultimately get asked for.

And by the time I got that,

it was like, you're so

in deep on something

that you don't even know

how to come up for air.

And when I look back at that job,

I had so much on my plate,

could have brought in

more help and I wasn't.

And it's because whenever you're like

so in the thick of it,

it's hard to just look out

and realize like you need more support.

But on that job, we ended

up flying in 60 clients

between Europe and US here.

It was a multimillion dollar shoot.

We had tons of people there.

I was managing 30 PA drivers,

30 rental vehicles, runs, coordinate.

Like, I had so much going

on within that shoot,

but I didn't know all that was coming

until it starts coming.

And the next thing you know,

like, why am I still

booking flights for people?

Why am I still telling a PA

what time to pick up somebody?

It's like I can delegate

so many of those tasks,

but whenever you start with something,

you just kind of,

I just started to clench

too much on that job

and I don't usually do that,

but it almost was like

a life support moment

of if I just control it, I'll fix it.

But then all of a sudden

I'm working 19 hour days

and like little things are slipping

and it's 'cause I just am not

equipping people to help me.

And so I learned like

the hard way on that job.

Like, you can't do that again.

And so I'm like,

I've made a point to learn through

what delegating didn't look like,

even after having team

that I could delegate to,

I just didn't very well in that job.

I learned a lot there that

that's not gonna happen to

me again at least I hope,

like in the way that that did.

The root I would say though