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Imposter through the lens of Intersectionality with Liana Fricker
Episode 91st April 2024 • Psychologically Speaking with Leila Ainge • Decibelle Creative
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Intersectionality and the Imposter Experience: Unpacking Identity with Liana Fricker

In this weeks psychologically speaking episode with Liana Fricker we discuss one of the thoughts that sat behind being visible and holding back for my participants 'what if I'm wrong?'

I loved having Liana on as a guest, a self-proclaimed imposter atheist, our conversation touches on intersectionality and we use the topic of sustainability to unravel what happens when we start talking about complex stuff.

Liana also talks about ADHD, self sabotage, emotional intelligence (EQ), and we explore insecurity, empowerment and attribution bias.

My research suggests that rather than a lack of confidence, it's the context and limited resources available to marginalised individuals that often amplify feelings of being an imposter.

Liana Fricker, founder of Inspiration Space and a beacon for solo founders and companies of one, joins the conversation to share her unique insights. Liana’s commitment to aligning human activity with environmental responsibility is reshaping the narrative for conscious entrepreneurs. Recognised by Startups magazine as one of the most influential women in the industry, Liana brings a fresh perspective to the table, challenging the traditional narratives of impostor and advocating for a deeper understanding of individual experiences shaped by race, gender, and neurodiversity.

They also tackle the environmental implications of our consumption habits and the significance of carbon literacy in making informed choices for a sustainable future.

This episode is a call to action for anyone looking to inspire change and make impactful choices, both for themselves and for the planet.

Connect with Liana Fricker on Linkedin , on Instagram @lianafricker, and through her platform Inspiration Space www.inspirationspace.co.uk


For more psychological insights and to connect with Leila Ainge, visit www.leilaainge.co.uk  and follow her on Instagram @leilaainge and LinkedIn.

Leila also has a brilliant newsletter - get yourself on the list here: https://www.leilaainge.co.uk/newsletter

While you’re at it, subscribe to Leila’s substack here: https://leilaainge.substack.com/


Psychologically Speaking is proudly produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative www.decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative / LinkedIn.


Transcripts

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>> Leila Ainge: Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

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Leila Ainge. This is a podcast

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all about human behaviour, weaving

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together fascinating research, opinions, and real

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life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist's

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insight into how we behave in spaces we live

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and work in, and how they in turn, shape

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us. It this season, we're exploring

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my favorite topic, impostor phenomenon.

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So get comfy and let's dive into today's

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episode. So far

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this season, we've heard about different perspectives

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on the impostor narrative, and today's episode

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brings some of those ideas together under the umbrella

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of intersectionality. Now, this is

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the idea that we have overlapping

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identities and, um, that these result

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in different experiences of

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inequality. We see this in my

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research, which suggests that instead of thinking that

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women have a problem with confidence, we need to

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look at the system and context in which they

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work. When that person is marginalized,

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we find that their experiences around visibility,

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competition, and comparison can be

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amplified. It helps

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us to frame the narrative that women might be

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disproportionately impacted by impostor

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experiences, not because they're less confident than

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male counterparts, but because they have

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access to fewer resources, that the spaces

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and resources they do have access to support

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systems of oppression, discrimination, and, um,

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are dominated by people with privilege.

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Psychologically speaking, when we reduce

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someone to.

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>> Leila Ainge: The identity of a woman who suffers.

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>> Leila Ainge: From impostor, we ignore or miss

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other important or challenging parts of that

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person's identity.

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>> Leila Ainge: I'm delighted to welcome my next guest.

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>> Leila Ainge: And their overlapping identities for a

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discussion that will absolutely change the way you think

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about sustainability. Liana

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Fricker is founder of Inspiration

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Space. She empowers solo founders

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and companies of one through passion, profit,

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and impact. Her focus is on

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harboring human activity with

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environmental responsibility, paving the way for

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a new generation of conscious

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entrepreneurs. Her mission,

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inspire the inspired. She

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is mentor for the black business residency at

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Somerset House and recognized by

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Startups magazine in 2022 and

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23 as one of the most

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influential women in the industry.

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>> Leila Ainge: So, Liana what I wanted to kind

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of start out with, really, is I'm

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interested in your perspective on

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impostor. And, I mean, I use the phrase

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impostor phenomenon and for the reasons I've set out

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earlier in my podcast. Um, but

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however you choose to use that phrase in your

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experience, I'm interested in how that's shown up for

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you. Um, and does it continue to show up for

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you?

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>> Liana Fricker: I suppose I am an imposter

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atheist.

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>> Leila Ainge: I like the way that you phrase that.

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>> Liana Fricker: Uh, I'm an atheist in that. First of all, I'm an atheist

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across the board, but I'm an imposter atheist. I think

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that what I've realised for

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myself, a, I didn't even know imposter syndrome was a thing

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until, I guess, it was maybe trendy. And

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so it was just everywhere. It's not something

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that I have ever recognized

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in myself, the way that people describe

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it, what

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I have had experience with. And when

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people traditionally talk about imposter syndrome, and

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my reply is like, I think impostor

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syndrome is a sign that you're not

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a BSR,

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that you're

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thoughtful, you are

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considerate. Because the way that I always

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see imposter syndrome describes that you'll put yourself forward

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for things. And if I don't feel

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comfortable, no, I don't self forward. If

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I don't feel like I have enough information, no, I don't

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talk because there's too many people that do,

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and there's a lot of

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windbaggery around. And so.

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>> Leila Ainge: I was speaking to, um, Laura

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Stern and Christina Clark of work

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culturalty, and they, um, have spoken to me

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about psychological safety. And that

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is the essence of that isn't know, am I comfortable

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in this space? Uh, have I got voice? Do

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I need voice? Um, and do I feel

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that I can speak up and say what needs to be said?

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>> Liana Fricker: Because sometimes when I have an idea and I have a perspective

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from the beginning of my career, I

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have no problem voicing an

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opinion and contributing in that

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way if I'm not interested,

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or maybe I missed it, I've got ADHD, so I didn't hear it. I

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mean, there's a whole lot of reasons why I may not

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contribute in a particular moment. And a lot m of

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the time in particular, when I was at that point in my career where I was in rooms

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with senior people as a junior person, I was

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taking mental notes. I was like,

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I want to sit here as a fly on the wall and just understand

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the dynamic and how you're all interacting and how you're talking and learn your

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language and learn your manners as I'm learning.

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>> Leila Ainge: I think that's an interesting perspective. Um,

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I've been in a situation recently where somebody

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went, oh, it's very quiet in this meeting, and nobody ever

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talks. And I took the time to

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email the host afterwards and say, I

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like your meetings. I like getting the

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quickfire information, and it works for me, but I will contribute

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a bit more. And we have this,

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um, in a bit,

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like we had presenteeism in

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workspaces. I think there's a bit of

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presenteeism of voice isn't there. It's a

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bit like me having this conversation with you. I'm obviously

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being mindful of giving you

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space to talk and then thinking about when I come

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in, but I also just want to listen to you as

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well. Right?

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>> Liana Fricker: And where I get frustrated with

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the whole conversation around women and impostor syndrome, and I say

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women in particular, is when it then starts to

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come into our professional development, how we show up into our careers,

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because it almost feels like

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insecurity is being capitalized

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on and being called

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something else.

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And then you almost get, like,

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gaslit into action so

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that you can advocate for yourself.

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And then you don't feel like you're

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enough because you don't know what you're talking

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about, which is why you're insecure and you're

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quiet, no shapes.

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And then you're just constantly then being. Looking outside of yourself.

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Okay, now I need a coach for this. I need a social media person for

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that. I need a landing page. I need a funnel. I need this

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ebook. I need this. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need

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more. I need more. I'm, um. Not enough, not enough, not enough.

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When, on a foundational level, every experience

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you've had in your life up to that point has

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informed how you even see or think about

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yourself. And until

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you go deep and think, why

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do I feel like this? Why is this a

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problem? Why do I feel it's a problem? How is it showing up for

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me? What else could it be? I know

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I was diagnosed with ADHD at 39. A lot

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makes sense now. That didn't make sense

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before. And I've recently

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finished the foundation in, uh,

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PQ training and mental fitness. And now I

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understand even more

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about how I show up and why I am the way that

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I am. And I am

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a black woman from America, and

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I was born being told I had to work ten times as

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hard for half as much. And that is the least helpful

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narrative you could ever imprint someone

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with.

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>> Leila Ainge: I want to come in there because

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this was a theme in my research,

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and the research was showing that

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visibility is a challenge. It's

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obviously showing that, um,

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our ability to speak up.

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It was also saying that

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certain women and women of

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color, um, women with

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ADHD, women just

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intersections and inequality

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was just an extra layer in

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the muddle that is impostor.

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There's a really good HBR article, and,

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um, it's Rakita

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Tulsan. I think I've pronounced that correctly. And, um,

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she wrote this HBR article that says, stop

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telling women they've got impostor syndrome.

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And the whole point of her article, and I think she was probably

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the first person to say, this

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is. That's not impostor.

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That is racism or sexism or

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homophobia, or it's,

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um, almost whatever ism we put against

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neurodivergence. Because we have this idea

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that you have to fix difference, but you don't. You

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don't have to fix difference, you've got to enable

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difference. And, um,

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when we get that right, then

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people have voice and people feel safe. But

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unless you're tackling those structural issues,

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nothing ever changes. But to what you said there,

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those are the narratives that have fed your

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career do well, work ten

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times as hard. And then no wonder

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we have to.

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>> Liana Fricker: Ask ourselves, how complicit are we in

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holding up structure? There's a movie from the

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Amy's, uh, called hear no evil, see

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no evil. And it's Richard Pryor and Dan Aykroyd. And

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Richard Pryor is a black man who is blind. And Dan Aykroyd

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is a white man who cannot hear. And there's a scene in the

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movie where Dan hackroyd basically tells

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Richard Pryor that he is black. And he's like, you mean I'm not

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white? And Dave Chappelle has a skit.

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It's a play on this as well. So this is what I mean about I was

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imprinted with this narrative as a child because

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my mother was imprinted with it, my father was imprinted. But this is

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generational. At what point do we stop telling people

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this story? Because if you are led

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to believe that everything that you do

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has to be exceptional to have less,

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of course you're going to be a workaholic. Of course you're going to be an

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infectionist. But that's

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not necessarily the truth

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of the existence. But it's a story that I've been

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told and I've internalized that has then turned into other things

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and other behaviors and other habits.

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I am a human being like anyone else.

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I suppose it's around the

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idea that if everything

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around you is always

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telling you that you need to be more, you need to be better. And women,

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we have this as well. If you look at us

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as gender, how helpful is

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that? And that's why I push against

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some of the for women

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only stuff that has come out over the last

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decade. Because I'm like, we can

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inspire and educate women until the cows come

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home, but until we fix

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the system and until we actually deal

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with how men see women.

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We will fail. So

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we might as well just go on and out of the beach or something. You see what I

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mean? It's almost like it's a futile

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effort and so we're putting all this

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energy into it. But how come it's not working? Because we need more

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women. And then you've got women who's like, look, I already broke the

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ceiling. I do not want to have to be the only

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person asked to mentor the women in the business.

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I have enough going on right now.

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>> Leila Ainge: I'm going to have a wonderful, um,

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woman called Deb Edwards come on to. I know

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Deb and I'm

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hoping to speak to her about the nonsense behind

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the fact. Know women

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just need more investment

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and money and it doesn't seem to happen. And we

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know that women have traditionally not been as connected.

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Um, my current PhD research is all around

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entrepreneurial networks and not really

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saying, how do we make things better for women? It's going,

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well. How are women carving the way and can men learn from

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that? How about we

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turn that the other way around? Um, but there are

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definitely inequalities there

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unless we fundamentally go back and go, no,

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this isn't about my confidence. And this is the thing

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around impostor that really gets me is that when I spoke

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to women and

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that narrative around ADHD, which I

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think you can, um, probably

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give more, um, context to than I

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could was really already.

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I know that concentration and memory

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and organization are, ah, going to be,

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um, different for me in business,

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but they are the types of things that we get judged

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on, on how we show up and how we're visible. And I mean,

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every other post in the marketing space is be

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consistent. And the women I

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spoke to were going, God, these things are just so

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dangerous. These narratives are dangerous, these

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behaviors are dangerous. And,

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um, as a psychologist, I look to

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my own profession and go, wow. Nudge

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theory, um, behavioral

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science. We've been telling people that

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consistency and doing this and subliminal messaging,

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this, that and the other, we've got a lot to

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answer for as well. And actually we have this huge

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replication crisis in psychology going, guess, uh,

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what, some of that nudge theory stuff, not been able to

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replicate it. So

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I think there's a lot to be said about, yes,

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some things do work and they work brilliantly. Doesn't

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mean you have to do it. And we were just talking

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before we started recording about the fact you're going,

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are we doing video? And I went, well, yeah, but I might not use

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it because I had to make a decision around whether I wanted to become

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a good video editor, uh, in the process of getting

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this conversation out. Um, and

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that, for me, boils down to a lot of

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the stuff that sits around the thoughts in

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our head. It's just extra noise in just

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getting on with the day job.

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>> Liana Fricker: Fundamentally, we're talking about the human condition.

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We label the human condition. And

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when I think about my ADHD, I was undiagnosed

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until I was 39. Been obvious the whole

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time. Um, as the mother

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of boys, I say, I'm a boy mom who was raised

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by a girl dad. And I do think that for

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me, it gives me a very interesting sort of

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insight. And both of my sons have

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ADHd. I have ADHD. And

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we think differently. We've got different skills, different tools.

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My husband is neurotypical. And my God, I love that neurotypical

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mind because that neurotypical mind means we don't miss flights.

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The machine runs with that

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beautiful mindset. And he often jokes that he's

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the neurodiverse where in our house. Because he is.

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>> Leila Ainge: Yeah, sorry, you said that, um, it was obvious.

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Was it obvious to you?

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>> Liana Fricker: It's obvious to the bumps. It was like, without a

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shadow of doubt, it was obvious

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in women. Girls, it presents differently. But

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again, this is where that kind of whole intersection comes

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in. I m was reading the

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book, and now for the life of me, I can't remember the name of it because

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age. And

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for every

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positive comment that a neurotypical

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child gets, an ADHD child

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gets 20 negative ones.

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>> Leila Ainge: Yeah.

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>> Liana Fricker: And so you just think about. So imagine a world where you've

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already been told you've got to work ten times hard for five

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times as much.

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For every one positive comment, you're

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getting 20 negative ones.

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Yes, it's. A lot exists, but we all are

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so complicit in reinforcing these stories because

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they're just stories. They're stories.

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This is what we tell people. What is normal, what is not

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normal, what success is, what happiness

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is. For one person, happiness is the pursuit of

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endless consumer goods. And for another person, it's a

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nap. That's why the environment is in the

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state that it's in, because we're constantly chasing outside of

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ourselves to live up to these stories that we didn't

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even create. And this is the

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problem.

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>> Leila Ainge: I always like to kind of frame things from a point

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of how do we bring empowerment into this?

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Because that takes away the emotion of doing

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things in a particular way, right or wrong, that m

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empowerment looks like, okay, I can try

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this. I can have a go at this. I might not be there yet, but I

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know I can have a go and I can fail safe.

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And I wonder, um, how

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that falls into where we are with the

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sustainability agenda. And that was why I was really excited

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to get you on, because you're

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really working in that space. And I'm going to get

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you to describe to me in a nutshell what sustainability

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means to you. But I wondered if we could talk about

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how impostor, uh, experience

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kind of comes into that. Because often we feel like we

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have to be a bit of an expert in something to have a voice or an opinion

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or to make a change. But if

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we're looking at that empowerment frame,

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how might imposter experiences hold us back? But

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first up, what is

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sustainability to you? And what could it be

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for us?

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>> Liana Fricker: I suppose, great question.

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For me, the word

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sustainability, it's a buzword. It's jargon.

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And the word is meaningless. To be perfectly honest, it means nothing to me,

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the word at all. Seriously, it doesn't mean

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anything because it's a buzword

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and it's about

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how you live. We m

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can talk all we want. What we

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have to do now is to change

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behavior. And, ah, for

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me, quote unquote, sustainability is

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about living my life,

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uh, in a way, and inspiring others to live their lives in

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a way that is equitable

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and inclusive and

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balanced in between

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humanity and the world. The earth

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that we live on, because the reality is no one gives a shit

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about the planet. And I say that because

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the earth is going to earth. But climate has always

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changed. You can look back through the history

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of time m and see how a change in climate has

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changed human behavior, but which

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hunt when we look at

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racism, in particular in the

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colonial times, and these narratives that we have around black

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and brown people being tired and lazy,

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how the heat affects your

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sensibilities. This is climate. The climate has always

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changed. And people have always used their knowledge of climate to

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control behavior. It's

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documented. And so what we have to do

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is to stop pretending like we're these omnipotent forces that all of a

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sudden we're going to put the genie back in the bottle.

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The Earth is going to Earth. The only person that lost

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know the great asteroid were the dinosaurs. Earth

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is still here. So we have to

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kind of not be.

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So I don't

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know even like, uh, what the word would be. But

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we need to realize that we live on a

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planet that we impact, of

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course. But what's more important for

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me are the people on this planet and how they

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are impacted by the change

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in the climate. And so if we think about this as

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a hamburger, on the one side we have adaption,

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on uh, the other we have mitigation. And in the middle we have

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justice. It's about climate

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justice. Because in the global north

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we use so much resource.

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>> Leila Ainge: Mhm.

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>> Liana Fricker: And that has a detriment, not

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only environmentally, but when we think about

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the pollution in water because of fast fashion,

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we think about how much stuff we buy

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clothing that we then send to charity shops, that then

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ends up on the beaches of Ghana, that then

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destroys local textile markets.

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That's the biggest problem, right?

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That is the problem. And we have control over our

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behavior. People. Oh, the companies, the companies. The companies

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sell to the people who buy Bella stuff.

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>> Leila Ainge: I love what you're saying here. And to bring that back

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into a psychological frame, um,

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the psychologist Katie Milton is all about habits

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and um, how we make better

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choices, right? And

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um, there's this

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economic bias which is we're

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unable to make good choices when it doesn't give us

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that instant gratification. We tend to be

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biased towards. I'm going to eat my cake now

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and not worry about my long term health goals.

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And um, at the point at which we're recording this, it's

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currently January. So at the moment everybody's talking

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about whether they're keeping their goals or letting

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them go. And a lot of habit setting

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fails because we're focused on the end goal,

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which seems very far away. And

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I love what you've just done there because you've instantly

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just said to me, carbon literacy, let's

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just boil it down to this simple thing of use

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less. And actually, how do you

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boil that down to yourself? And you frame that

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within, perfectly within an ADHD way,

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which is, well, I don't have time and I don't have to think and it takes the choice

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out. And I just love how you've done that.

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And for me, I think there's a real skill in the

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way that you do that, uh, conversation.

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And that helps me kind of

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talk about the way in which we tend to think of

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experts. Because yes,

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you can understand the discrete detail and

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the nuance around sustainability targets

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and what that might mean for modeling and this, that and the

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other. But what most of us need to

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hear and understand is just relatable

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stories and narratives.

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>> Liana Fricker: And this is where that carbon literacy. So carbon literacy is

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actually an understanding of

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your impact on the planet

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and the climate crisis and how human

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behavior changes or

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has changed here, right? In

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a nutshell. And it's an actual credited course that

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you go on. It's one day training. And it's amazing because you

Speaker:

do learn the science, so that when someone

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is making a point, well, it's

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cold. I thought it was global warming. Well, you're talking about weather, and

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weather and climate aren't the same. And

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understanding that this

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is about, in particular, if you're in the global

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north, how

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disproportionate our extraction has

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been. Um, and how

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disproportionately the global south

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feels. Droughts,

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floods. And now what's happening is that this is coming home to roost

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in the global north, you see? So it's like, this

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train is not going to be late. And

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we do have to change our behavior, which is why it's about

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adaption mitigation. And in the middle, it's about climate

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justice. It's ensuring that people who live

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in urban city centers don't have

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to worry about their children in asthma

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because people are mad about congestion charges.

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This impacts us on our streets all the time

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in our lives. We just don't realize because we don't have the language. And that's where that

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ignorance comes in once you're carbon literate. In the same way, if you were

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financially literate and you understand how money

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works and how you can get your money to work for you, you

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can then make informed choices. And what I have found

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is I don't have climate

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anxiety because I have this

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understanding of how this is all playing out.

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And I'm not saying this is not a threat. It is a threat.

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Of course it is. But I

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also know that

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each one of us can do something

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so small to change it.

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And you can combine that with something

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that enriches your life,

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instead of getting in the car,

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walking with the kids to

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wherever you can go, instead of, uh. And this

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is where I find, and this is where the cost of living crisis comes

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in. Because we also shame around money.

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Instead of saying, oh, I can't afford it, because you

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can't afford it, you can look at the environmental

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impact, oh, well, we can't

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go to the Maldives. Not because we can't afford it,

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but because of the environmental impact. So if you want to be

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Saint amalgamus, go have that moment for yourself.

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I can't buy the Chanel bag.

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The fact that I can't afford it doesn't even have to go in the conversation.

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I'm trying to change my consumption habit. Then

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all of a sudden, we don't need to look outside of ourselves.

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We buy stuff because the world told us, you'll

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feel good when you buy it. I always get really annoyed when people are

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like, uh, retail

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therapy. I'm like, no, you're going to go tell somebody to

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smoke because they don't feel good. No. Could you imagine

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if people were posting things around smoking because they had a bad day?

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Everyone would be like, oh, you were a monster.

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But people would feel if you treat yourself to that

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8th, those stupid flasks with all the

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colors.

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>> Leila Ainge: I've got a wonderful conversation as part of this

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series with Samantha Harmon, who's the style editor.

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And she talks, know, just these

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wardrobe graveyards that we've got. I, um,

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want to pose something to you. Um, and

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it's this idea that with

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a classic impostor experience

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is our fear of being

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called out. And, um,

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the statement that kept coming up in the research with

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my participants was very, what if they say I'm

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wrong?

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>> Liana Fricker: And, um.

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>> Leila Ainge: My kind of comeback on that, I think as a psychologist

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is kind of going, yeah, isn't it interesting that

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we sit there worrying about this? But where and

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how are we giving people the skills

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to, um, come back from those

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types of questions? Because we know it happens. We know

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that, especially on LinkedIn, I think

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spaces like that, um, it

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invites very open challenge and

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critique, which is good. Conversation is good if

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it's done respectfully. Um, but

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where are we training people on how

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to. Or educating them, um, on how to come back from things

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and what you've just said there, I wonder if that talks to it a little

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bit in terms of when you get yourself

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educated on a few things, then it's easy to come back and

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go, yeah, that's weather, that's climate, and

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you can really dampen down a fiery

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conversation because there's nothing worse than feeling like you're getting into a

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polarized conversation, and that's not what

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you're aiming to do that day. You don't want to have a big

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conversation on LinkedIn or Instagram with somebody you don't know about,

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a big topic, um, but you still want

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to be yourself. And I wonder if you've got

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a view on that at all.

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>> Liana Fricker: That's really interesting. The wheels in my head are turning whenever I make

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facial expressions. I can think you.

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What I find very interesting about that is in the first instance,

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when you first asked the question, the first thing I was like, why would someone tell

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you you were wrong? And that goes back to what I'm talking about. It's like,

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I don't speak unless I think I'm right.

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There is no such thing as an expert. First of

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all, there's no such thing as an expert. So

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I don't consider myself to be an expert. I am a human being with a

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perspective and an opinion.

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Nothing. And then this is

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what I mean about these narratives and stuff and where it's like, we've got to

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go so much deeper than that. If you're worried that someone's going to call you

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out for being wrong, we have to ask more questions about

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why you're worried someone's going to call you out for being

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wrong. How do you see yourself? Because if you're walking

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around, be like, but I'm an expert. I'm supposed to show up like this. Well, there's no such thing as

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an expert. It's all so much deeper for me

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than that, which is why I find that question so interesting, because it's like,

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well, why is that the

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worry? Because in particular

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circumstance where you can control. You're

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opening your mouth so you can

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control that.

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There's a lot of stuff that I engage in and I see that I

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don't comment on because I don't have value to add. I don't have

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a perspective and nothing to say. That's not imposter

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syndrome, it's just time management. Right? So

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energy, we have to tell people

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they have to be talking. This is a real

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thing. And it comes in like, to have a business

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grow your brand, you got to be on Instagram x number of times a day. But

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that's just them talking. And this has an environmental

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impact because all of this uses

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energy. The servers, the

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AI, the streaming, this all part

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of the same thing.

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>> Leila Ainge: Where I got to with this is, uh,

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I know in coaching conversations

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it would go to just always be curious

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when people have a different perspective and viewpoint

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because it's an emotion leveler.

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Curiosity is the answer to most things. And,

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oh, I wonder why they've got that perspective. Take

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pause and, hey, maybe don't reply straight

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away. Also, we know that there are

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people who are not as m curious and therefore their opinion

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will be fairly rigid. Well, hey, that's for them

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to go and find the right time to do that

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self reflection and get to that point. But

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we don't have to call that out either.

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So it's a really interesting thing. So

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a lot of my research is around the

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online and social space, and it's such an

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interesting place where we think about how we engage as

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humans. As a cyberpsychologist,

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I believe that online is an extension of

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real life. It isn't separate. It's totally

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interweaved. Um, but also

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it's not a bad place to be. I don't feel that it's a

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negative place that's making us into horrible people

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or causing addiction. I think that

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we are the type of people who are very social and get

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addicted to things. And therefore, when you give us a platform,

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we'll also get ourselves very socially attached to it

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and addicted. So it's

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separating out things. And then I think what we also

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see is then a very, um, kind

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of strong,

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undiluted version of

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people in spaces such as the

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comments section. But there are definitely, I

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think, um, coming back to what we

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know is intersections. If you are a woman

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entrepreneur in a space that has been

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predominantly, um, filled with

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male experts, then perhaps that's

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going to throw you more attention than other people.

Speaker:

But yeah, it's just such an interesting concept because

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that narrative comes through to people who

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talk about impostor. They go, what if I'm wrong? And

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there's a, um, participant and her pseudonym is

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Asima. And you know,

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what if I'm wrong? What if they say I'm wrong? And this

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person is more than qualified to say what

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they want to say. And actually, they don't even need to be qualified

Speaker:

to say it. They happen to be a yoga teacher. But even if they weren't

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qualified and just loved yoga, you can say what you

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want. You can say that, um, there's no law

Speaker:

against saying it unless it's offensive.

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>> Liana Fricker: What do you think about the Internet? Use something.

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Because I'm a very online person. I've been a very online person

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since the days of AOL and plugging it

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in on the phone. That generation of

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people, and

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now with AI,

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people are producing more content that has ever been

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created before. And that's not a good thing

Speaker:

because it dilutes everything and

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everything becomes noisy. And

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it's very easy to create bots

Speaker:

and they can then just respond to stuff and then

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add to more noise. And how many

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comments are actually even people? And some people,

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they like the dopamine rush of being online and fighting online

Speaker:

because in their actual life they're disempowered from using

Speaker:

their own voice. And so they take it out in the comment section.

Speaker:

And this is where that empathy piece comes in. Empathy is big.

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Like, why is someone showing up like that? And

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we have to work on ourselves first so

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that we have resilience. So that

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should someone clack back in the comment section, we

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can look at it, approach it with empathy,

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curiosity, maybe comment

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back maybe ignore it, but not let that

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slow us down. If

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we felt that the message we wanted to share

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needed to be shared, and then that goes back into,

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we don't always have to be talking, but if

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you were talking because someone told you that to get ahead in your

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career, to grow your business, you had to talk. And the message you

Speaker:

put out there, you weren't confident about because you don't actually know that much

Speaker:

about it, but someone told you you had to. Yeah.

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I can understand why you might be nervous if someone comes back because you wouldn't know

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it. And then this is

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where this all kind of starts to come

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in together and you have to think

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about what is it in it for

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me? What's in it for

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me? And play to

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your strengths. I try to design failure out

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of my existence so that

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my life is easier. I've

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turned using the word discipline, which triggers

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me into self love, which actually came from a

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call conversation I had earlier today. So thank you, James.

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>> Leila Ainge: Um.

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>> Liana Fricker: Discipline triggers me, but discipline

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sounds like the point of the game is to

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fight as hard as you can against your own, um, instincts

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by your nature, then that obviously comes from my

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ADHD. So if

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I don't have to fight against

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my nature because I designed my existence to be in

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flow, I don't meet discipline. But now we're calling it self

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love, so it is that, and that's where that

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consistency comes in. I think consistency is a

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beautiful thing. This is also why I really like PQ trainings,

Speaker:

because with my brain, my ADHD,

Speaker:

it has helped me rewire the impact

Speaker:

that my central nervous system has over certain things

Speaker:

and to then stop getting myself into

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these self sabotage loops, which would ultimately create

Speaker:

more stress and overwhelm

Speaker:

and to create new habits by

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having more honest conversations with myself, doing things

Speaker:

differently. And that is this form of

Speaker:

consistency because it's got to come with ease, and it

Speaker:

comes with ease when you're intrinsically motivated,

Speaker:

not when you feel bullied by yourself.

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>> Leila Ainge: From a psychological perspective, we kind of think about

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this as kind, um, of like a hostile

Speaker:

attribution bias.

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Let me frame this. Rejection. Um,

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so, uh, ADHD and rejection

Speaker:

and that kind of sense of

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sensitivity to rejection can be very strong

Speaker:

for some people with ADHD.

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>> Liana Fricker: Not everyone so wise, but for some better.

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>> Leila Ainge: Yeah. So

Speaker:

when you have that reaction to

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rejection,

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it can result in a behavior which is very

Speaker:

hostile. And that's what you're kind of describing there,

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isn't it? But you don't have to have ADHD

Speaker:

to know what that looks and feels like. I think that's a common

Speaker:

human, um, experience.

Speaker:

It's more pronounced and it's

Speaker:

more challenging for some people than others.

Speaker:

But we do tend, and coming back to some of that stuff

Speaker:

around Katie Milkman and psychology of

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choice and taking an easy road,

Speaker:

um, being able to go

Speaker:

through, push through things that are easy rather

Speaker:

than hard. There's a sweet spot, though, isn't

Speaker:

there? And the psychologist in me is going, Leela. Yeah, but a

Speaker:

little bit of stress is good, and we know that, but

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it's such a really

Speaker:

interesting dynamic around how much stress is

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okay, how much challenge, how much we need to

Speaker:

be kicked up the backside to make a change and

Speaker:

to take action, how

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much we need to be empowered. And I think

Speaker:

a lot of these conversations sit underneath that,

Speaker:

uh, bubbling cauldron of impostor,

Speaker:

as I would describe it, the old world impostor

Speaker:

syndrome, actually, when we start to go

Speaker:

right down into the deep depths and the

Speaker:

roots of how this has happened is how we've been told

Speaker:

to think and feel. It's how we show up in

Speaker:

the world, and it's also how we know

Speaker:

to make good choices for ourselves. And if you've never been

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taught or you've never seen that behavior around

Speaker:

you, people making those good choices, how would you

Speaker:

know? Um, so I love what you're

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saying. It's really giving me

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different ways to think about sustainability. And

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I'm definitely questioning now that earlier

Speaker:

conversation we had where I said, oh, yes, well, about

Speaker:

the video and not having to worry about showing up

Speaker:

all presented brilliantly and having my

Speaker:

hair done and this, that, and the other. And I'm now thinking,

Speaker:

maybe I just say, actually,

Speaker:

it's a probably good thing, and I'm contributing to not

Speaker:

adding hours of video to the Internet.

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>> Liana Fricker: This is it. This is exactly it.

Speaker:

I'm glad you said it, because I was going to say that you weren't. Exactly.

Speaker:

This is exactly it. It's just

Speaker:

reframing what

Speaker:

already exists. When we think about

Speaker:

rejection, the humans are wired

Speaker:

to not want to be rejected, because back when we lived

Speaker:

off the land, that meant you were probably going to start, right?

Speaker:

So being outcast is no great,

Speaker:

uh, none of us want that neurotypical neurodiverse whatever.

Speaker:

And then the stories that we're told, how

Speaker:

we show up and then some of what we think is good

Speaker:

and what we think is bad. One of my big insights over the last kind

Speaker:

of four months is what I thought

Speaker:

was good is not good for

Speaker:

me. And that turns into

Speaker:

the hustle culture, the

Speaker:

rise and grind. If

Speaker:

you want to start a business and you're not working on it 80 hours

Speaker:

a week or you haven't quit your full time job, you're not serious about

Speaker:

it. That's not healthy.

Speaker:

And for a long time, not only did I internalize that,

Speaker:

I shared it. And

Speaker:

it's like, no, that's why people burn out. That's

Speaker:

why people can't recognize what's enough. That's why people can't have

Speaker:

gratitude. That's why people end up divorced

Speaker:

or smoking or this or that. Because we've

Speaker:

been taught to, uh, believe that that is a good thing,

Speaker:

that we are more worthy when we work more

Speaker:

hours. And that is not

Speaker:

true at all.

Speaker:

>> Leila Ainge: There's this whole thing around slow down to speed up.

Speaker:

For me at the moment, that seems to kind

Speaker:

of be coming into my life not only because I am,

Speaker:

um, working, I am, um,

Speaker:

researching and

Speaker:

parenting and that softer

Speaker:

kindness coming through and saying,

Speaker:

I don't have to feel that I'm in a hustle

Speaker:

place or trying to meet. I mean,

Speaker:

I think this podcast, I'd originally thought it might

Speaker:

launch in September last year, and actually

Speaker:

that just wasn't going to work for me. Um,

Speaker:

and I changed the date and I don't think anybody

Speaker:

noticed apart from me.

Speaker:

It is what it is. But there's also a

Speaker:

joy with human nature, I think, around

Speaker:

the fact that we can allow ourselves to concertina our

Speaker:

effort and we can ramp up and we

Speaker:

can achieve brilliant things under pressure when

Speaker:

we need to. Um, that for me, feels

Speaker:

more like the resiliency conversations around the ability to

Speaker:

do it when you need to and be able to have the recovery

Speaker:

and bounce back time. But it's not that

Speaker:

sustainable state, is it? That's

Speaker:

the problematic point that you talk to around

Speaker:

divorce and bad health and poor

Speaker:

outcomes in life.

Speaker:

>> Liana Fricker: And I love nothing more than going, like, when I'm all in, I'm m

Speaker:

all in. And I love that energy. I love that

Speaker:

energy. Where it started to become

Speaker:

toxic for me was when I didn't have that

Speaker:

energy.

Speaker:

And the

Speaker:

lack of energy would ruminate in my head

Speaker:

around that. You're supposed to, but you must, you

Speaker:

need to, you must. And the thing is,

Speaker:

it wasn't inspiring me to action, it was

Speaker:

just adding more anxiety. So then instead

Speaker:

of like flight or flight, it was like just the old freeze and

Speaker:

flop. And I hate freeze and flop. I hate freeze and flop

Speaker:

more than fight flight, hate freeze. I was like the

Speaker:

worst, the worst.

Speaker:

>> Leila Ainge: I've not heard the flop. I hear a lot of iterations

Speaker:

on this, like um, fight, flight,

Speaker:

freeze form, but I've not heard the flop

Speaker:

a Jackie power.

Speaker:

I use this, um, in my paper on

Speaker:

impostor. I, um, talk about how actually,

Speaker:

the way in which women that I spoke to described

Speaker:

impostor. And, um, I'm going to say a long word that

Speaker:

I might fail at saying now, a phenomenological,

Speaker:

um, analysis of people's

Speaker:

conversations. And so the words that

Speaker:

women used, um, about impostor were very

Speaker:

dynamic, energetic words like whoosh

Speaker:

and waterfall. And

Speaker:

you think about crescendos and a build up of

Speaker:

something, and then it's crashing down, this failure or this

Speaker:

stress point. Um, and I talked about that fight and

Speaker:

flight response to impostor as well. So

Speaker:

it's all part of the psyche and how we think

Speaker:

about these things as well. It all meshes

Speaker:

together. It's been an

Speaker:

illuminating conversation, which I think I knew it would

Speaker:

be. I first met you, um, well,

Speaker:

I saw you rather than meet you at the doing it for the

Speaker:

kids, um, meetup in 2023,

Speaker:

and I wanted to speak to you,

Speaker:

but I was so exhausted by chatting

Speaker:

to lots of wonderful people that I sat on a sofa

Speaker:

and just thought, I'll make contact. And I'm so

Speaker:

glad that I did. And I really appreciate you coming

Speaker:

on to share your experiences of

Speaker:

intersections and how that comes with

Speaker:

impostor. I think the bit

Speaker:

that I've really enjoyed is just

Speaker:

how you have, um, changed the way I'm thinking

Speaker:

about sustainability a bit. And I hope that people who are

Speaker:

listening to this can take something from that as well. It's

Speaker:

such a different perspective and you are just a

Speaker:

brilliant storyteller. I think that's what I know you

Speaker:

for.

Speaker:

>> Liana Fricker: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here.

Speaker:

Um, anyone who's listening, thank you very much.

Speaker:

And if you take anything away from this conversation,

Speaker:

just know that the most powerful tools

Speaker:

that you have are your inspiration and

Speaker:

your ability to choose.

Speaker:

>> Leila Ainge: Absolutely. Thank you.

Speaker:

>> Leila Ainge: That's it for today. I hope you

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learned something new, or perhaps I've

Speaker:

given you a new way to think about what you

Speaker:

experience. A quick

Speaker:

reminder that rating and reviewing all

Speaker:

the podcasts you love really does help other

Speaker:

people find them, which is especially

Speaker:

appreciated by independent

Speaker:

podcasters. For more

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psychological insights, you'll find all the

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ways you can connect with me in the show

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notes.

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>> Leila Ainge: You.

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>> Leila Ainge: Thanks for listening to, psychologically speaking

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with me, Leela Ainge

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M bye for now.

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