In this weeks episode Julia delves into the topic of women's place in society and how that looks in different countries and cultures across the world.

Anna Afeyan Governor, Board of Trustees UWC Dilijan College, Alfonsina Penaloza, Director, Programs, Global & Latin America, Co-Impact, Anila Dehart, Managing, Director, Global Talent, Deloitte & Selvie Jusman, Finance Professional all of whom have moved from a different country to the US explain how their own experiences and cultures have shaped them and what being a woman looks like in their home country vs the US.

[00:00:43] Welcome, welcome, welcome. Julie Middleton, expedition leader. So the expedition's been going on since May. As you know, 24 women from all parts of the world. The truth is that over the months we have been through probably what are pretty predictable stages, haven't we, given that we're from all over the world, you know, the early stages where you think that everybody's different from you , then that sort of second stage when you think, oh no, no, we're all very much the same.

[00:01:50] And it's only possibly when you, when you are in such an international group or when you travel, when you move that you begin to discover that actually the role of women in different societies is very, very different. one of the members of the expedition is Selvi and she, she, she moved, uh, after a childhood in Indonesia to work in Singapore.

[00:02:38] Selvi: I, I grew up in Indonesia, but I do have a, a Chinese heritage and I think that influence, um, my view of how a nuclear family should look like, my growing up and my cultural aspect shapes me to have a more conservative or traditional view of a, a nuclear family. and that means like, um, a father should be the provider for the family, a female or the mom will rely on the partner, the husband and, I would have, um, the daughter who is well protected.

[00:03:46] Julia: This is actually really intriguing, isn't it? Unpicking these assumptions. So I thought we might devote this episode to, to the subject and, and so I went to talk to three different women. What they have in common is that they were all brought up in different parts of the world and then moved to the US.

[00:04:45] So let's start first with Anila. Um, who moved from a, a culture very much steeped in Central Europe to one of North America, and I asked Anila uh, you know, what surprised her most?

[00:06:49] There is an expectation and it's, uh, that women are well educated and have a career, and this is reinforced not just by families, but also the society in recognizing academic accomplishment and coming, having come from this background, I've made the assumption that more developed economies, not only this would be the case, but it would be even more so where women would prioritize education and careers and would be further ahead.

[00:07:35] Anila: It might be explained by, um, um, number of factors. One of them, I see that communism did have a, a role to play because it was about equal rights and everybody had a contributing role, and, and that required a big emphasis on education for women and men.

[00:08:34] Julia: Did people actually question your choices?

[00:09:33] Julia: And none of them ever recognized that because your roots were in Central Europe you just, it was second nature to you.

[00:10:04] Julia: There are other examples of things that are sort of built into your DNA because you grew up in Central Europe, that that you assumed were global and that weren't.

[00:11:07] It's subtle. It's when you are in a meeting you, you may, you might express an opinion and suddenly, nobody picks up on it, and then few minutes later a man will say it and they'll say, well, as he said, yeah. Or there will be some other very subtle ways that you are expected as a woman to lend your message and the feedback you get on how you communicate when you unpick it is really so that you fit more on the style of the man that are, are, is kind of the dominant style in the business. And the reason I think it's controversial is that not everybody likes to admit that that's happening.

[00:12:05] Anila: Brilliant question.

[00:12:12] Julia: Hmm, that's why I wanted to ask it.

[00:13:07] Some of the obstacles that, uh, I see here in the western world would not qualify as real big problems. But the style I wouldn't describe as serious. I would describe actually as more relaxed and comfortable to be yourself. Here is one example. Um. Uh, Central European Balkan societies and big generalization, so, uh, for the sake of the argument, we, we like to debate. We like to offer a, an opposing view. That doesn't undermine the relationship. Yeah, we can debate about it with passion and hands, and gestures, and then laugh about it and move on, and then move to a different topic. Also, we don't sugar coat messages. In fact, being super diplomatic and direct is seen as patronizing and disrespectful. You do that with total strangers where you don't have trust or really, invested, you are not invested in their success, but you never do it with family and colleagues. And moving to these Western cultures, one of the first things that I had to moderate in myself is the directness of my messages, but also presenting an opposing view.

[00:15:15] And so as a result to make true change, then it requires a, a style that is way more indirect and diplomatic.

[00:15:29] Anila: It does. It does, and it means it, uh, it requires some humility. Yeah. First off, by recognizing that your way is not the only way.

[00:16:22] So, loved everything you said, Anila. Let's move on now to Alfonsina who moved this time from Mexico to California. My first question to Alfonsina was how does the position of women in society as you perceived it to be, having been brought up in Mexico?

[00:16:50] Alfonsina: That's a very complex question. I don't know if I can summarize it for everyone, but I would, I would argue, um, thankfully changing, especially over the past five years, but there's, there's a, if I had to use a word, I, I think I would use submissive. I think it's an expectation. I, I, I certainly wouldn't want people to think that what I'm saying is that Mexican women are submissive, but there's an expectation that you should be. It's linked to our colonial past, right? There's an element of, of, of a submissive culture in Mexico that of course permeates the gender roles as well.

[00:18:14] Julia: So, so when you moved to California, did you find that you had to rethink the assumptions around the role of women?

[00:18:59] I, there are plenty of examples. Um, I don't know of any single friend in Mexico who, if you take public transportation, you don't think about what you're going to wear. Like there is a, there is a intentional, decision... if... thinking about what your wardrobe should be, if you're going to take public transportation.

[00:19:46] And there was, there was a big relief and almost like a weight that got lifted off of feeling like, oh, I don't have to think about this. And I don't think I had realized how much time, energy, and stress went around those calculations all of the time.

[00:20:19] Alfonsina: Thank you for that clarification around, you know, safer. Because I don't think we can, I don't know a single woman who can probably walk around saying that she feels a hundred percent safe. Um, I mean, I think it gives you freedom, for starters. Um, that sense that I've found of like lightness. It gives you a sense of freedom, of, of, you know, not having to think about the logistics of if I went out for drinks and it's past midnight, like what are the, how do I get back home?

[00:21:12] You can think about things when you are walking back home that are not, who's, who's are those steps behind me? And, um, in my case, walking is, is a place of creativity. I think about, um, even having drinks with friends is a place of, you know, many really great ideas or projects that I've worked on have come from, from having drinks with folks or, or, or meeting for dinner and, and having these conversations.

[00:22:22] Julia: So there was a lightness, but was there anything that was inside you from being Mexican as a woman that you, you sort of thought, you know, California's missed out on this. Actually, this was, this was better, this was better in Mexico.

[00:23:39] Like the, the, you know, the adage time is money. It never rang to me as true as it does in the US and I don't think of time that way and I don't want to, um, where efficiency is one of the ways in which you can think about it, but there's also the quality of the time and how you spend it. And, and perhaps to your point around the gender piece, no Latino cultures in general Mexico, of course being part of that, are incredibly affectionate. Right. And, um, we're very touchy feely. Our personal space looks very different than it does in the US, and of course, legislation and culture played, uh, a role in, in, in, in the workspace where I felt like I, I needed that. And I, I didn't realize until I was in a, I was on a trip in South Africa and um, I was meeting, uh, uh, an organization and I did the American thing that I had learned how to do over a year, which was extending my hand and saying very nice to meet you.

[00:27:41] Julia: Alfonsina, that was ... that was delicious. The requirement to abide by a structured way of thinking about time. That is completely intriguing. I need to go away and think about it a lot. Um, thank you, Alfonsina. Next we move to Anna and Anna, of course, moved from Sweden to the US. This is gonna be intriguing. Go for it Anna.

[00:28:44] And that, I have to say really surprised me because US and Sweden, I thought were pretty comparable in terms of relationships between men and women. But I found that women in Sweden in general, Was just had this kind of sense of taking care of themselves and being absolutely equal to the men. And that was a sense that came from inside, was not something that anyone told them.

[00:29:14] Anna: Yeah. I mean, I walked into a room and I think I knew who I was and I knew I could take care of, you know, everyday problems or I could take care of, um, just in general, kind of take care of, of myself and, and make choices for myself, make choices. I didn't need to ask any of my male coworkers or friends how to... about how to do things, whether it had to do with my car or my, you know, just everyday expectations that I wouldn't know how to do that. Um, and that to me was interesting because I had not sensed that in Sweden never. Of course, you can ask a friend for help, whether it's female or male, but that I would kind of need that advice before I went ahead to do something, that was surprising to me. Um, the other part was this kind of whole, um, expectation about how to be dressed or how to almost, uh, not pleasing yourself, but pleasing others in a way that I did not see. Of course, you were respectively dressed in Sweden, but it was not a competition to try to look the best. If it was a workplace, you were there to work. Not to look good.

[00:30:42] Anna: You know, I see more women, particularly in tech since I, I'm an engineer, I see more women for sure. But the part that has not changed is the unreasonable sort of, hours and the expectations that, um, even when you have a family, there should be, no, there shouldn't, you know, they there, there's still too, too little time off around maternity.

[00:31:32] That was to me, I don't know if I know anyone in Sweden who stays at home. It just doesn't exist because there, the system has been changed so that it serves families better. So life quality is better. And that, unfortunately, even here, affects women more than men. But in general, if you look at the Swedish society, there are so many more women leadership positions.

[00:32:21] Julia: So that was Anna. I said, I knew you were gonna love listening to Anna. Oh, what a finale to this episode. An episode in which I've learned a lot that just... just how different it is to be a woman in different societies and how we make assumptions about our own cultures and other cultures. Just how much cultural intelligence we need as women to be able to work together across the world, um, that there are good and bad in all cultures that I think I've, as if I needed it, it, this episode has seriously challenged the perception that some societies are, as Anila says, in some way, further along the development curve than others. But, um, I think the main thing I've learned from this episode is that I would like to have, I would like to have a Singaporean attitude to multiple roles, an Albanian commitment to education, and then using that education coupled with an Albanian ability to disagree and, and, um, and then a US concept of, of relative safety, uh, that means that, that I feel free to be creative and, and, and more joyful. And a Latino sense of time without doubt, I need an Latino sense of time, an African sense of cuddles and being hugged, and then a Swedish culture of strong, independent women. Yes, that's what my island will look like. A combination of Singapore, Albania, US Latino world, and Sweden . Sounds like perfection to me. Anyhow, hope you enjoyed the episode. Lots of love.

[00:34:48] Keep them coming.