Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: 26: Is a master’s an essential for career progression as an Aspiring psychologist? With Dr Mel West

Thank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast. A common debate in psychology is whether you need a masters to get onto the doctorate. Although you can get onto the masters without one, Dr Mel West and I discuss the advantages and difficulties of getting a Masters degree. A Masters is not always needed and if anyone out there would like to be a guest speaker to argue this case, please let me know! I hope this helps you to make a decision about whether a masters might be right for you!

The Highlights:

• 00:28: An invite for topic specific speakers
• 02:58: Introducing Dr Mel West.
• 04:18: Another meandering journey into psychology
• 06:00: Online learning
• 08:24: Do I need a masters?
• 10:12: Some advantages of postgraduate education
• 12:25: The financial side of a Masters
• 14:14: Difficult times of aspiring psychologists
• 15:43: Avoiding burnout
• 18:28: Creating boundaries
• 20:50: This isn’t a race; it is all beneficial!
• 24:44: Does what doesn’t kill you make you stronger?
• 26:49: Reflecting and adversity
• 27:42: Masters start dates
• 29:13: Applying to a Masters
• 31:07: Inclusivity and diversity 
• 31:46: Thank you
• 32:03: Call for speakers and an exclusive podcast episode
• 33:00: Membership and incoming trainees!
• 35:04: How to connect with me and getting involved with my new book!
• 36:20: Thank you for listening and some jingles!

Links:

Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her including the

upcoming Aspiring Psychologist Book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her linktree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent

• To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0 

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(00:28): Hi, welcome along to the aspiring psychologist podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Um, I am often asked in my day-to-day goings about, um, supporting aspiring psychologists, whether it's always necessary to have a masters in order to pursue and progress. Your career is an aspiring psychologist. And today is my attempt to help to answer one side of that debate. I am gonna be joined in conversation, which you can watch if you'd like to on the good thinking psychological services at YouTube channel. Um, but you don't have to, you can just listen through this very podcast that you might be listening to right now. Um, I'm gonna be joined by a lady who works for a master's course. And now I should say that I haven't been funded or, you know, cajoled in any way, um, to record this episode, um, I reached out to the course because it was a course that I had studied and that I had found really useful.

Marianne Trent (02:58):

So, Welcome along to Dr. Mel west, um, who joins us from Newman. Hi Mel.

Hi, thank you very much for having me.

Thank you. Um, I reached out to your predecessor who was Lorna, um, because I had done, um, the master's qualification, um, with, um, with Newman. And so when I was wanting to talk about masters, you know, sometimes it's better the devil, you know, um, but I understand that you took over after Lana, is that right?

That's right. Yeah. So I took over from the running the masters in 2017. Uh, it was a big thing because, um, Lorna set the course up and she'd been running it for a long time. Uh, and so there's some big shoes to fill, but I think I'm doing right. Yeah.

Very hard to give away your babies. Isn't it?

Absolutely. That's the thing as well. Yes. I think she was quite watchful over it for a while, but I think I I've sort of earned the trust now. Um, and yeah, she obviously an absolute fountain of knowledge with so much to, to give, having set it up, um, you know, as a novel course and having set that up and being part of the initial thought about developing it, she's given me so much information that yeah, it's, um, enabled me to, to go into it feeling quite confident and, and running it successfully. Yeah.

Brilliant. We will hear a little bit about the novel way that your particular course is set up a little bit later, but our audience is not just clinical psychologists. Like me, our audience can be anyone really, who is an aspiring psychologist or working in various different areas, um, of psychology. Could you tell us a little bit about your kind of psychology career and how you got to be where you are now, please? Mel,

Certainly. Yeah, so I, um, I finished my undergraduate degree and, um, I actually didn't go straight into, uh, a master's. I decided that I'd had enough and, uh, of, of education, higher education, and I needed a break and I went into finance because obviously psychology allows that with all the stats. Um, and I have many years of working in finance and got married and had children, and then we moved to a different part of the country. I'd always felt I wanted to go back to it. Wasn't finished with psychology. Um, but obviously once you get caught up in life, it can be difficult. Uh, so I, but having moved to a different, uh, part of the country I'd was sort of given up my job and I felt free to try something new. So I went back to university and I actually, because I had done, um, back in those days, psychology with health studies there wasn't health psychology back then I had to do a, uh, PG certificate, uh, uh, to get the conversion for the BPS, uh, um, graduate registration. So I did that. And then I went on and did my master's in health psychology, and then did my PhD. Um, from that point I've been working in again, higher education at different universities.

Thank you so much. Thank you for chatting to me. We were chatting just before we, um, just before we went live about actually quite how unique, um, the qualifications certainly was when I was, um, looking for it in 2000 and sort of six, 2007. Um, because when I was doing it, it was part-time distance learning in the main. Um, but I had to kind of go a little bit in once a, once a term for teaching and for an exam, but I understand it's, it's moved and become even more modern.

It has that's right. Yes. Um, we are now completely online apart from one day you come in for the induction day and that's where we talk you through, you know, make sure you can use the library systems, make sure you can use Moodle. Um, and so you can navigate your way around the, the sort of electronics sort of versions of everything. Um, and also that just enables you to meet your cohort in person, uh, and the staff. Um, and then it's all online. There are no exams it's, uh, just coursework. And like I said, we are doing recorded lectures so that they're available. And then we have the, the chat functions where we discuss the reading, um, and there are sort of online activities and quizzes and things. So, yeah. Um, it's amazing how everything is done electronically.

Yeah. And I guess the pandemic has sped up that process as well.

Absolutely. Yeah. So obviously we were moving towards that sort of gradually, um, the world generally, but, uh, yes, as the, as the course was already, um, mostly online at that point, uh, it was, you know, um, uh, it was, it was still quite novel in, in that respect at that time and C's pushed it forward. And I said, so now we are making it even more online and even more interacting online. That's the, that's the difference? I'd say that's the thing. Um, before it was less, um, it was more asynchronous and now it's becoming more synchronous because we are much more uh ofay if you like, we, we are doing these face to face, um, sort of, you know, uh, digital, electronic kind of contacts, which is great because we then are getting to see the students rather than see a picture of the students all the time.

You guys will like 13, 14 years ahead of the, you know, the remote working curve. You , you're really doing good stuff. Um, a really common question I'm asked, um, all the time really, um, which is, uh, do I need a master's, you know, to progress my career in psychology, either clean psych, um, or health or forensic, you know, do I need that or can I do that without, and I guess that's an important kind of one for us to weigh up together.

Yes, definitely. It is very important. I don't, I think that some people can be lucky and you could get away without having a master's. Um, and I think, like we've said, um, we mentioned before briefly, before we came on a that, um, maybe you could, there was this belief that if you had a first, you could get away without doing a master's, but actually I think they're so competitive. The field of psychology is so competitive that actually, even if you have a first, uh, a master's is a real benefit, um, because it is a step up from an undergrad, even if you have got a, uh, first, it is a higher level, you know, we talk about them, uh, in universities we talk about year, uh, your first year is year four and then second year level five, um, third years level six. And, and then, uh, your masters is level seven and that is a step up when you look at all the mark marking, criteria's a little bit more expected. So, um, and I think that's, maybe employers are aware of that and certainly within psychology, there's an awareness of that. So I think you don't always need a, a masters. You could be lucky, but it's mostly advantageous.

Yeah. I guess what I liked about what I did and I'd said before we came on as well, um, people would be like, I'd rather listen to what you were speaking about before. sounds good. Um, but before we came on, I only did, um, I think the postgraduate certificate, cause I managed to get on, uh, the doctorate after one year. Um, and that was still really advantageous actually. So I was really pleased that I was still able to get a qualification for that one year, but even just the rigorous way that you taught me about research and being able to comfortably take that apart, pick it apart, put it back together and construct my own was really useful.

Yes. That, oh yes, that's right. So, um, it's the case that it is, we often have students starting, they have to register for the masters anyway, that's the way it kind of works at the moment. Um, but you, they sort of leave after doing the first year, which is retaught modules. Um, and that gives you a postgraduate certificate or you can stay on and you might finish the, the six sort modules, which is the, uh, postgraduate diploma and are often, like I say, students will start thinking they're going to finish the whole master's. And then, uh, as you said, you did apply thinking, oh, just give it a chance. The clinical doctor I'll try it. And then they get a place, uh, awarded a place. And so then they take the lesser award. Um, and but they always say, yeah, that first module in research methods really does help with that interview, um, where you have to do tests and you have to talk about, you know, research and, and how, what kind of things are of interest and how you would go about carrying out research.

It is designed that way that's the course is designed so that it will help with those kind of things. And obviously, like you said, it's not just about, uh, clinical psychology here. It's about, and it just, it can help with any area of, of work that you are going in any career, if you want to be leading things. And, um, especially in sort of an applied kind of setting where things might really help to do action research, you might not need a formal kind of, uh, research project, but you can do action research, which is research as you go through in a real setting. Uh, and that can really help to give you evidence of making a change that is required in any work. Actually.

Thank you. Um, obviously one of the main drawbacks, um, for, for any masters is that it might mean that you have to, you know, do less work or, um, paid work. I mean, or, you know, in traditionally taught masters, um, you might not be able to do any work around it, um, you know, or you might choose not to, so you can really focus on your masters. And of course there are financial implications to master's study, um, in that you have to pay tuition fees as well. So it's not, you know, this stuff doesn't come for free. And that can be really tricky when we're trying to, to think about inclusion and diversity in our workforce as well. Are there any other subsidized or adversary ways for accessing master's funding or, you know, scholarships, anything like that these days?

I think, um, I think some universities do offer some, uh, it's a case of looking at what, uh, universities have on offer because obviously most students are looking to go through student finance, um, and not all masters cost, the same amount of money, which isn't the same as undergraduates, most undergraduates cost nine and a thousand, uh, a year for studying. Um, and I think, uh, the yeah, it's individual, you could, you could also be really lucky and get a company to sponsor you. And sometimes people in the work situation do actually manage to get support from their, from their employer and get the tuition fees paid. But yeah, it is a problem. And like you say, most, you have to have, uh, work experience the work experience isn't well paid. Um, and trying to then balance that with your very demanding masters is quite a, a, a sort of a balancing act and, and quite a skill that you need to develop. Really.

Yeah. I think that's a really good idea and not one that I considered of, but you, you, you could potentially ask your employer to help with that, but certainly even if you're doing distance learning, like I was, it can be really helpful if your employer is on board with giving you a little bit of study leave here and then, or allowing you to work on assignments, you know, quieter moments, you know, because it is really tricky, you know, um, I, when I was, uh, when I was with you, um, I had a car crash, I had a breakup, you know, I was trying to strive for new assistant posts and, you know, it is not an easy time in, in my life whilst also trying to learn this stuff and get it in my head and, and be functional in my paid work as well. You know, we are asking a lot of our aspiring psychologists, aren't we?

Yes, we really are. It is. Um, it is a most, I suppose, uh, students are coming to us at a time, you know, usually in their twenties when it's, there's a lot of change and there's a lot to get to grips with, uh, and you're still developing as a person. So it is a very demanding time. Um, and yet there's a lot to, to be balancing and juggling. Um, but it's amazing how it can be pulled off. I think if you are determined and you are very, uh, well motivated, you can pull it off and you can succeed. Um, uh, but it's, it is a lot to deal with, especially when you've got the finance issues as well. It, yeah, it's very difficult.

Yeah, it certainly is. And, uh, yeah, I think those just operating on grim and gritty determination really at times during that tricky patch in my life, but you know, it's not, I think it's important that we think about how we balance and reduce the risk of burnout. Is there any guidance you'd give to master students or potential master students, or even people that aren't considering masters for how to reduce and avoid burnout in mental health professions?

Um, yes, definitely. Uh, we cover that quite a lot on one of the second year modules actually that I run. Um, it's a really important topic and there's a lots of sort of work looking into how, as, as a profession, when in any type of therapy, it's, it's a very giving profession, it takes a lot out of you. It can be quite exhausting. Um, and yet, um, we, we sort of recommend all these things to clients and yet don't take the time to, to do it to us and give ourselves that room. And it can, because it's so competitive, you often find that it breeding more competition in the workplace. So who gets in first, who's got the heaviest workload, who's got the most clients, um, and, and it's not very healthy. And so we really encourage people to, to reflect and reflection is a massive part of, um, being a psychologist.

You should be able to sort of spend time, um, and just reflect on what's happening. How do you feel? How can you make things a bit better and trying to recognize any, uh, signs of stress before it builds up, because stress can build up and come upon you quite slowly, but it's not until you are sort of dysfunctional that you realize how much it's it has affected you. So, um, really encouraging time for self care and finding things that help with self care and making sure you fit it in and, and, and pushing work back and not taking on more and trying not to get it sort of be pulled into that very competitive element of being, uh, a psychologist.

It is tricky, isn't it? I remember when I was working as an assistant psychologist and, you know, you are asked to do stuff and there is that expectation that you will just do it, but you've already got so many other things. I was working on three inpatient wards for my qualified, for my assistant work. It's a big job and I loved it, but there is that kind of, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a tricky relationship where you feel like you want to say yes, and you kind of have to say yes, but you don't really have enough hours in the day.

Yes, absolutely. So, um, obviously that's, it often was sold to those in lower paid jobs as it's good experience for you. Why would you say no? Uh, and yes, it is good experience, but you should be allocated the right time, uh, sort of frames to fit these in it, within a, uh, within the workload that allows you to, to feel that you are giving it everything rather than being spread. So thinly, you, you, you aren't able to fully be present with anything. Um, so I'd say it is about being boundaried. You have to, however much you're grateful for being in the role. Uh, and that's often a feeling which students sort of relay to me, they're grateful for having the role, but they wouldn't be getting that role if they weren't deserving of it. So it's about appreciating your value, uh, and putting any boundaries in place and, and showing I'm saying that you want, yes, you want the experience. You're very grateful to the experience, but you need to be realistic about what you can actually do.

Yeah. And that is likely to be a question on your on your applications as well. You know, when have you been able to say no to something? Yes. Um, so it's good practice to try and put that in, you know, to try and give that a bash as well. Um, you know, it's very important that we're able to know our own limits and be confidently able to protect them. Um, otherwise we will be too thinly spread and, you know, it will lead to burnout. It will lead to long periods of sickness, absences and it might well lead to us wanting to leave the professional altogether. And that's just not what anyone wants for us.

No, that's exactly right. So, you know, we see all the time where, um, burnout, it is sort of leading to more and more absences and people leaving the profession. And they say that actually, uh, you know, people, young people, uh, coming into the profession are more at risk of burnout. And that's because they're trying so hard. And, um, uh, and you don't get that experience. Of course it's better for you to build up experience and then you're bringing more to the job, but if you're leaving before you get to that point, that's really sad and it's detrimental for the profession. So, yeah, I think it is, um, very, it, it's very important to, to take what you can, um, and try to be ed. And like I said, it will pay, you will be asked about that. And it is something to, to be proud of that you have that ability to say now.

Yeah. I tried to use this podcast to spread a little bit of compassion in the psychology world as well. Um, and just to really highlight that this isn't a race, you know, I often say it doesn't really matter, you know, whether you get onto training this year or next year or the year after it might matter personally, you know, it might matter if you feel like you're putting your life on hold, but in terms of the finished product, you know, what is actually better is that you get there on day one of your course and things feel within your comfort zone, or just ever so slightly, a little bit of a stretch. What we don't want is for people on, you know, day, one, year, one of training to be massively floundering and feeling like it's all too much, they can't do the in person. They can't do the professional bit. Can't do the research bit because it is, you know, that you and, and mixing socially with the cohort and juggling your life. It is a lot, isn't it? When you are undergoing any professional psychology training. And so some of the advantage of just slowing things down a bit and really making sure you are consolidating these skills, you're giving yourself opportunities to learn, um, research to do research means that when you get to your chosen professional qualification route in psychology, it will feel like it's in your stride. And that is so much better.

Yes, absolutely. Yes. So I hear that it's quite a lot, students feel really disheartened because they can do the course over four years. So obviously, you know, some of them bless are applying year after year and it they're so disheartened. And, and often I hear, I feel like my life's on hold and I just want to get this. Um, but like I say, it is about trying to frame it, reframe it in your mind slightly and think about, well, each year I'm more experienced. I'm gonna be bringing more to it. I'm going to be able to be more comfortable in it and be able to enjoy it. And it seems like a bizarre thing to say, but, um, actually if you can enjoy it, um, it's, you, it will be so much more pleasurable as an experience. Um, and you are less likely to feel really overwhelmed.

So yes, it's about sort of accepting your capabilities, um, at the time. And, and then knowing that however hard you, you sort of want, however much you want it is okay. You will, if you will get there eventually probably, um, or you'll get to somewhere and you'll be happy. Things often work out for the best. Uh, and yeah, I think it's, it's a slow buildup is probably more beneficial than going in way, feeling way over your head and then sort of feeling a bit panicky and, and, and not comfortable. They say you want to have a little bit of a challenge, but it's got to be a comfortable sort of push, not being massively overwhelmed.

Yeah, I guess I kind of liken it to when I did my maths GCSE and in year 10 I did an exam. Um, I just found it quite tricky, you know? And so I found, I really spent time looking at what I'd found tricky about that. And I asked my math teacher for some additional help at lunchtimes, you know, once a week. Cause I was that kind of girl. Um, and really by the time my GCSE exam final exam came, I walked out of that exam, cuz I'd looked at every question when I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. I walked out feeling like I'd absolutely given it my best shot. And that's kind of how it felt when I was doing my doctorate interviews is that they asked me questions. And even if they're a bit left field, I still felt like I could give a good answer. And I think that's the difference. That's what time and consolidation and kind of focused attention can be, can be really useful for.

Absolutely. Yeah. So that's it, uh, it's like, that's the, that's the sort of epitome of it, isn't it? You sort of building up that experience and the more you experience you have in all aspects of your life, the more you are bringing to that interview or job role, and that's going to be beneficial, not just for you and, and how you perform, uh, as a professional in that role, but also to any clients that you have, you're going to be able to bring more to it because you are sort of have a much sort of experience and more to bring to it. So, so yeah, I think that's exactly right. It is about just being aware that it's all experiences are good. You, they, they, they say, don't know if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, which is a bit of a, you know, maybe a little bit controversial, but it does mean that you have more to offer and that can be really good for clients.

Yeah. I don't, we definitely don't want to be suggesting that

no, no, sorry. It's alright.

No, I absolutely know what you mean. You know, it's being able to reframe the negative fix experiences as well and to, to take things from it, isn't it. So yeah. You know, there is that, um, you know, I think when I was studying my doctorate, even there was, um, teachings that we'd had about, um, about people that had been scarred as part of their experiences. And it's that sense of you only get a scar if you've survived. Um, and that's really powerful as an idea. So it is basically that if it doesn't kill you, then you know, that's a good thing. Um, but it's how you then speak about that. Isn't it. And even within difficult interviews, um, challenging interviews, they will often want to know how you've coped in adversity and how you've gone through that. And we need to be well practiced in doing that and also demonstrating that it's okay to have had adversity, you know, you want, we want well-rounded people in psychology. We definitely don't want machines.

No, that's exactly right. Yeah. So it is about, well, it comes back to reflection, doesn't it? And I was saying the importance of reflection earlier, um, it's, it is a, a key sort of function within a professional, a psychology professional. Um, and you are, it's about thinking about what that event meant to you, that adversity that you've experienced and we all have, um, and it's, you know, like we say, it's an important thing to survive, um, and adversity, and to come out of it and think about what that means, what it means, um, and how do you take it forward and what can you do in it in a positive light. Um, and yeah, that will obviously benefit clients. So you, because you can relate to things and you can talk about experiences more, um, and you, yeah, just that more to offer really

Definitely. Um, do your masters generally still kind of roll on roll off in September, or can you kind of roll on at different points of the academic year? Just I'm thinking people are listening to this now they're thinking is now the time, you know, do I apply now or when is the best time or the only time to apply for master's study?

Um, I think now universities are trying to get this sort of, um, much more flexible approach to applying and starting. But, um, in my own experience, I'm not aware of any that are currently, um, actually, um, starting other than in September, we start only in September. Um, and applications are for masters. They're not the same as for undergraduates, you know, in grad undergraduates, you are applying the year before really. Um, but, uh, for masters, you can still be applying in July and be expecting to start in September so you can have a good long think about it. Also, I would just say that it's probably worth putting in an application anyway, you know, just putting in an application and you can think about whether or not you do want start and you can defer your start. Um, but yeah, I think because of the way masters are structured with modules taught in a certain order at certain time that it's not always as flexible as being able to start at different times. Maybe that's next for the there's sort of novel. Yes.

Roll on, roll off masters, you know, here, when you're ready and what's the deal with actual applications? Is that like a form? Is it an interview? What tends to be the application route?

Uh, well, different universities do different things. Uh, for us it's just a form. We just have a, a form it' not that much. And I would say actually, when you're writing your personal statement, um, we don't, we don't always want to read that this is all you've ever wanted to do. Uh, and so, uh, it's nice when people are just open and honest and say, you know, that they're hard working, uh, and well motivated and that's enough. We don't need pages and pages of that. You've always wanted to do it. And how, and demonstrating how this is the case. Um, it's enough to just say that you really want to do this now and you are really well motivated.

Oh, you just made me flashback to my, um, my undergraduate, uh, personal statement. And honestly I found a copy of it. Not so long ago, it was dreadful. It was like talking about stuff like, oh, me and my brother get on quite well. Like why was that in there? Who was not helping me? How did I get on to a course? I'm now much better at writing personal statements, but honestly, so yeah, it's very interesting to think about what should and should not be in your personal statement,

These things. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Uh, it is funny sometimes reading them. Uh and I think most people will look back and sort to think, oh, um, but I think sometimes the, the sort of couple of, uh, center, well, a paragraph, uh, and a half maybe says more than enough. Um, uh, and yes is it's about making it directly relevant, which is all of that's, um, key to all academic writing. Really

Lovely. Um, thank you so much for joining me, Mel, is there anything that we, I haven't asked you or that you wanted to talk about that we haven't done so far?

Um, not really. No. Just, um, we are talking about sort of inclusivity, uh, and diversity and just how that's really important to make that much, uh, much better within psychology generally. That's, that's a really important point and hopefully, um, yeah, the barriers are coming down and we are making it better, but that's just something to just acknowledge. I think it's important that we all acknowledge that.

Definitely. There is more coming up in the podcast about inclusion and diversity and equality as well, but thank you so much for joining me. It's been so lovely, um, connecting with you, um, and just wishing you a lovely summer. Um, yeah. And let me know if I can help with anything in the future.

That's lovely. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

(33:00): You can listen to all back episodes of the podcast, um, by, um, checking them out on Spotify, on Amazon, on apple podcasts. Um, and you can also listen to all of them on, um, YouTube as well. And basically I believe anywhere you could envisage or dream of accessing podcasts, you can reach us as well, which includes Google. Um, and yeah, uh, Dezer I think there's one called Dezer yes, you can reach me there too. Um, we've had a lovely, um, successful spring and summer in the aspiring psychologist membership, lots of people within the membership have this year gained places onto clinical psychology courses. And they said that they found that the membership had really helped to support them and to help them perform optimally in the interviews. We've had a couple of people who wish to carry on in the membership as well, even though they are going to be trainee clinical psychologists.

(35:04): Um, basically I'm Dr. Marianne Trent on pretty much everywhere. Um, so I'm that on Twitter? I'm that on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I keep getting LinkedIn and link tree mixed up. Um, I'm that on Instagram? Um, I'm Marianne Trent on Facebook and also good thinking psychological services, Facebook and, um, YouTube, um, good thinking psychological services. So honestly, if you haven't yet stumbled across me on, um, social media, I'm also on TikTok for Dr. Maryanne Trent to then I dunno how you've done it, you know, , you must live in a social media vacuum, which is probably very good for your mental health. so long may that last, but yeah, we do some lovely stuff in the membership and of course there's the upcoming aspiring psychologist collective book. Um, if you, um, know someone who is currently training on the whole, the special hu York scheme that takes you from undergraduate to, um, the doctorate, um, in clinical psychology, I love to be able to include, um, a story from someone in that, um, in that position within the upcoming aspiring psychologist membership.

(37:35): If you are looking to become a psychologist, then let this be with this podcast to on your way to the inspir psychologist.