My guest on this episode is Zolana Joao, a distinguished engineer and dynamic leader from the Angola National Space Program Management Office.

In this episode, we explore Zolana’s profound journey from his challenging early years in war-torn Angola to his instrumental role in advancing Angola’s aspirations in space exploration.

With his deep commitment to education and his strategic vision, Zolana has been a driving force in launching Angola’s first satellites, significantly impacting his country’s development and representation in the global space community.

This episode was recorded at the Inter Astra Retreat just outside Washington DC last November (2023).

In this episode, you’ll discover:

• From Civil War to Space Pioneer: Zolana’s journey through adversity to space leadership.

• Strategic Mind in Angola’s Space Ascent: His pivotal role in launching Angola’s satellites.

• Lessons from Global Space Partnerships: How international collaborations shaped his strategy.

• Advocating for Future Innovators: Zolana’s efforts to inspire the next generation in Angola.

• Leadership Philosophy: Insights into overcoming obstacles in space sector leadership.

Quote: 

"I didn’t know that I was building muscle. Then after 9 months, I start applying for jobs in electrical engineering jobs. And I found, Motorola company. That time, Motorola was already in Angola, and they were hiring technicians. But I was scared because I was 17. I was not allowed officially to work yet. But I said, I have to gotta do something."  

- Zolana Joao

Episode Links: 

• Follow Inter Astra on LinkedIn 
• Discover more about Inter Astra 
• Connect with Zolana on LinkedIn

Credits:  

Production by CxS Partners LTD  

Executive Producer: Toby Goodman  

Audio & Sound Design: Lee Turner  

Artwork: Ryan Field 

Recorded on location on Nomono Sound Capsule 

Explore more episodes at Kathy Sullivan Explores... https://kathysullivaneexplores.com/ 

Find even more podcasts on the Inter Astra Podcast Network HERE 

Spaceship Not Required

I’m Kathy Sullivan, the only person to have walked in space and gone to the deepest point in the ocean.

I’m an explorer, and that doesn’t always have to involve going to some remote or exotic place. It simply requires a commitment to put curiosity into action.

In this podcast, you can explore, reflecting on lessons learned from life so far and from my brilliant and ever-inquisitive guests. We explore together in this very moment from right where you are… spaceship not required.

Welcome to Kathy Sullivan Explores.

After 24 hours, we realized the power supply was compromised, and then after a few days, we lost completely as as needed. So then I will go back. I present my recognition letter. My boss says, Zolanda, I wanna accept that. What I want from you is to build a new satellite.

I am the only person to have walked in space and gone to the deepest point in the ocean. Hi. I'm Kathy Sullivan, and I'm an explorer. Exploring doesn't always have to involve going to some remote or exotic place. It simply requires your commitment to put curiosity into action. So join me on this podcast journey as I reflect on lessons learned from life so far and from my brilliant and ever inquisitive guests. We'll explore together in this very moment from right where you are. Spaceship not required.

Welcome to Kathy Sullivan Explores. So I'm Kathy Sullivan, an inter Astra facilitator, adviser, participant. I'm here with Zolanda Joao from, the Angola National Space Program Management Office.

Thank you so much, Katie.

Tell me a bit more about your background. How what is the pathway that ends up with you here at Inter Astra?

Okay. And, thank you so much once again for admin. I got into space as part of a challenge the country was having more than 10 years ago. And what I wanted to start is this program. And, identified 6 young guys, and I was 1 of them. And they say, okay. And they say, let's build a space program. I'm electrical engineering.

There's a background, and then we start a space program. So in within frame of 10 years, we have launched 2 satellites in orbit, and we are among the 15 countries in Africa with the actual space program. And I met with Che in Kenya last year. We had a very interesting conversations, and I believe he remembered our conversations, and I got to come and share some of my experiences at the Inter Astra.

Very cool. So I would love to know more about your pathway before you became an electrical engineer. I know nothing about angle. I can find Angola on a map. I even know what the flag of Angola looks like, and that's about it. So tell me a bit, what kind of environment, what kind of city or village did you grow up in? What what did your family do? And and how did you made your way to university clearly. Tell us that thread.

Angola was in the war for 30 years. And Internal civil war? Internal civil wars in 30

years. Tribal dynamics or just political factions?

Political factions, you know, different parties that were not getting along, and for 30 years, they fought together.

Right.

And then on 2020 2, this is when we got in peace. I grew up in a very poor family. And in Angola at that time, from the 2022, just coming out of the world, it was everything destroyed, no hope, if we can say. We had to rebuild the country. And I remember

Were you directly affected by the war?

Yes. Definitely.

Were you living

in What I mean in

a city, in a village

city. We all came out of the outside the this city to come to hide on the city because this is where the

state is. Rwanda. Yeah. Rwanda.

That is London. So then the unemployment rate was high, and opportunities for you guys. I'm the oldest.

So how old were you when Peace arrived in 2022?

22. Sorry.

You were 22. Yeah. I

was 22.

So I actually You managed to go to university and complete a degree while your country was at war.

So actually, I started even during the war because Yeah. I remember I was 17 years old. I never forget. I was tired of not having anything to do. I was seeing my family starving. I remember 1 day I woke up. I said I have to do something and I start selling highs on the

market. Ice.

In the market. I would we had a very small fridge in Rome. I would

Small refrigerator. Yeah. Refrigerator. Make some ice?

Some ice.

I would

go put some buckets, put water overnight, and then You

know, in in the United States, you can go to grocery stores or even small 711 kiosk stores and buy a bag of ice. Probably you could not do that in Luanda back then. There were no stores

so nice. Stores. Yeah. So I would go and say, oh, there's a fridge. I have buckets of water. Yeah. Go overnight, put those buckets ice, and then as it will be in the market to sell for the people selling fish and and meats. Yeah.

This was my first way of getting some income. The second 1 was we were doing a lot of construction. I was still 17, and then I would go and help with the construction by doing bricklayers and and things like that. But I was not feeling the passion. And 1 day

You were meeting the need, but not feeling a passion.

Yes. Yes. Yes. So I was meeting the need, not feeling it. And 1 day, III came across with this company was doing electrical courses. Electronic Training courses. Training courses, vocational courses. Like, big courses in electrical engineering.

Had so had had you been able to continue some schooling through the war years or homeschooling with your parent? I mean

I was doing high school.

You were doing high school? Yes. So teachers were still managing the teach

that And I had to choose to study in the evening so that I could work during the day. Day. Yeah. Yes. This is what I was doing. So during that, I was doing some work to feed the family. In the evening, I was going to school to do my high school. So then I phoned this vocational training school.

I learned electronics, and I just used to read electronics day and night. I just found a passion for electronics, you know, reading all books I could. That time, we had the Portugal Portuguese Embassy in the country and then the library with the Internet.

Uh-huh. Because Portugal in colonial times had It

was colonial time. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So they were the only Internet place I remember

Oh, wow.

To be free accessible for students with low income.

That's that's kind of unusual for an embassy to be that open to

That open. Yeah. Yeah. That our students wanted to come was full was full of books all the way from analytic engineering, science, and I would go almost every day spending my time. So I didn't know, but I was building muscle. And then

I I love that metaphor. I use that metaphor so, so much. Yeah. Even the little step of selling ice is building a muscle.

I didn't know that. I was building muscle. Then after 9 months, I start applying for jobs in a in a electrical engineering jobs. And I found, Motorola company. That time, Motorola was already in Angola, and they were hiring technicians. But I was scared because I was 17. I was not allowed officially to work yet. But I said, I have to gotta do something.

They were looking for bachelors, but I just tried my luck.

Right.

Yeah. I went for an interview.

What's the worst that can happen? They say no.

Worst kid up.

Yeah. Or maybe they say no and they give you some advice. That's the next best thing.

And I was struck because when I got there, after 30 minutes of conversation with the owner of the company, oh, the guy who was running the company, he said, you know what? You are hired.

Good for him.

My first salary was 50 US dollar, and I forget.

50 US dollars per?

Like, per month.

Okay.

That was a lot of money.

Yeah. Kinda larger than your ICE income. Yes. That was

a lot of money. And I forget, I have this book until today on my shelf. Out of the $50, I bought 1 of the best electronics book of that time. Cost me $35. Wow. Well, I reinvested that, my first salary, to buy a book. So then I keep on studying in the evening, and I will keep on building muscles. When I finished my high school, that was in 2003, now the world was finished, I felt I wanted to learn more.

And then I start applying for scholarships. And I got selected on 1 of the biggest scholarship program in the country. Out of 4, 000 applications, they won 4 people. So and then just very quickly, some lessons that I learned this process is I had already almost 4, 5 years of experience in the industry. I applied to the oil sector as well. I applied for scholarship oil sector, and I was accepted to the oil sector first, and I was earning $500 per week. Woof. Yes.

Woof. So that was, 1 of EXO, company, old company in Angola, and my family was so happy because that's it. Yeah. Then after that, the scholarship,

that comes

in was to go in Namibia to start overseas to do electronic engineering, my passion.

So at at a university?

Outside Ambla was in Namibia. Yeah. In The University. In University. University.

So where would that be in Namibia?

In Windhoek.

In Windhoek. Okay.

In Windhoek. Yeah. So I had the tough questions, first time in my life, whether earning over $2, 000 monthly.

Right.

Or either go for a scholarship to study earning badly, like $300

a month. The bird in the hand or the longer term investment.

The longer term.

But you I mean, you had the extra that this is an extra challenging decision, it would seem, for you because your family that level of income from the oil company was so transformational for your family.

Yeah.

It was not just your decision about which path do I want. It was all of the Yes. You know, obligation and care about your family wrapped up in it.

Yeah. So I took the decision for the long term investment.

So You and your family supported you?

No. Oh. We were not happy.

I'm sure. Yeah.

They were not happy, but always learning life to get advice for people who have lived more than here. And I I went to my boss that time and I asked him for an advice. And he told me

This was your oil company boss?

No. It was my previous boss. The 1 from Motorola boss. He gave me 1 of the best advice in life. He says, Oana, I don't care how much you are needed, but this is the best decision. Go and study. And my family was actually supporting me to get the oil income. So and I and I went to to Windhoek, and this is everything started from scratch.

You didn't you have no family there? You did not know anyone there?

0. My first time traveling outside the country. Wow. Poor English. I was speaking barely.

It's vastly better than my Portuguese, so don't worry.

So I I was I was there. I go, and then I finish my 1st 3 years in electronic engineers, was selected 1 of the best student school. I'm selected by Telecom Namibia company to be an intern. I work for a year. They give me an offer again and say, Zolanda, we want to hire you, But then I wanted to go finish my degree in South Africa or continue my education. And once again, I had the decision to go to South Africa. I finished my bachelor degree in electrical engineering, and then I continue with master's degree still in South Africa. And then in 2, 008, 2008, 2009, I come back.

When I come back to the country, I I did 2 master's degree program in South Africa, and 1 with the French Institute and 1 in South Africa. When I come back, Angola, there were no lot of educated people in engineering. So and after a year, I go for university. Where I was teaching. I start as a teacher, become head of department, and then I was acting dean Wow. Because there were very few people Yeah. With that qualification in the country. And then, I was I started from earning.

When I came back with 2 masters degree, I was earning $1, 000 a month. And after a year and a half, I would start earning $10, 000, so I think in per month. And I've I've said, oh my god. I've made it. By then, I had married. I was already married. Oh, I and then the governor, I would go to Japan because I always wanted to learn more. And I saw this program, Kansa leadership training program, 1 of the best training program that Japan does all over the world.

To go there for 45 days to merge space technology was my first time.

So what what You've got a electrical engineering background. You've been in the oil field. You've been in Motorola, electronics. You've been teaching. Yes. What drew you or intrigued you enough about space that you made that jump?

So I had 1 of really best lecturer in Namibia, Sumita Francis, doctor Sumita Francis, who mentored me along the way. And when I was back in the country at university, she says, Olana, I think you should go to this satellite training program. And we say, what? Satellite space? What is that? She said, just go. I will write a recommendation letter for you. You do application. This is and I went. I didn't barely know. So I knew SATCOMS as a course part of electrical engineering.

Because that's probably the primary communication mode in Angora.

Yeah. So but I didn't know anything about space. And I go to Japan for 45 days, intensive course in University of Tokyo, Keio, different professors. And we we are training different city in Japan, learning all the space ecosystem, and I found found in love with space. And then I said, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And then I goes I go back to Rwanda, and then I said, have to do my PhD in in in satellite or space. I go to South Africa. I applied to Stellenbosch University.

I am accepted 1 of the best schools in Africa to learn about satellite and space. I started doing my PhD, and the government organized 1 of the conferences where invited different lecturers to come and present about space. And I go to give my speech there. I didn't know there were a lot of government people Yeah. In that in that audience. And then I give presentation, and after a few days, I receive a call from government say

From the Angolan government.

From Angola government say, hey. We wanna meet you. And I was like,

You wanna meet me? So

I go for an interview for the minister of ICT that time, and then they say I

ICT commute

Communication, which is the ministry responsible for space programming and government

Okay.

Especially for the policy aspect of it. And then they called me and says, Alana, we saw what you presented. We're very impressed, and we wanted to invite you to come on 1 of our ICT institutes that is doing a lot of research in space. But it's government. We can only pay you, $2, 000. That was only 10

10, 000 a month.

Yeah. But they explained to me that behind this is a huge, idea of building a space program in the future. So I go for this. And after a year there, the the government invites me to run to start a space program in the country. And this is how I started. When I started, I just brought us a bunch of paper saying that we have signed a contract with Russia to procure a satellite, and we want you to live this. And this is our start. Through my journey on the space program, I thought I knew what I was doing.

The first thing I did, I asked help for Japanese professors in France. They invited me 1 of a an American company called TSTI, and doctor Jerry Seller, was had been trained as USAF. I never forget. That was in 2014 before starting for a crash course on space ecosystems. He put a video, a plane flying, which is being built while flying and says, Zolanda, this is you trying to land this plane.

While you're building it. Yeah.

So, yeah, this is, how we started. We were just 6 young guys. No experience. A lot of credits for government because they say, we want really you guys to try this. We're gonna back you up all the way. And we start building, the space program by building our 1st mission control center, building the human resources. We had to train over 45 people for the HERS stations to receive signals from space. And then we have to launch a satellite by 2017.

Yeah. So, fortunately, after 4 years of hardworking, after 9 hours, we had orbit of value. We are talking about I can't triple small budget. I've invested $300, 000, 000, and you have a orbit of value of satellite. So what I've done, I went back to my, minister that time, and I present my resignation letter to you. Gotta say, I'm so sorry. This is because, as Carrie knows, when you have a orbital satellite, that is international news. Everybody was talking about it.

Right. And then when you say orbital failure, it just it was working for a while, and it just stopped working.

We port is successfully in orbit. Yeah. It received telemetry. And after 9 hours,

power supply was compromised. And then after a few days, we lost completely as as needed. So then I will go back. I present my recognition letter. My boss says, Zolanda, I wanna send that. What I want from you is to build a new satellite. Oh my god. I was thinking, how do I go back another 4 years building a new satellite and give me another challenges like putting together a space strategy, another project, took a therapeutic observation, international positioning.

So, my god, let me try. So and, last year, we successfully launched a brand new satellite. The first one in Africa, fully HTSI triple satellite, that's been delivered broadband to Angola and the rest of the continent as we speak. Yeah.

Wow.

Full operated by Angola's, and built it from scratch.

You know what I love about there are many there's I've been hundreds of things I'm I'm just completely impressed and in love with your story. But one that particularly pops out to me thinking of all the young people that are younger than you, way younger than me, that are around here, today. I think it's become a pretty common thing in this country, in the United States, it seems to me, for young people in high junior high even in high school. Much more mindfulness and much more pressure on them. So we'll have what's your plan? Have a plan.

Yeah.

You have a resume and have a plan, and then go execute your plan. And I can understand the kind of motivations that lead parents and teachers to press for that. Yeah. But life never actually happens that way. And what I love about your story, shows how it usually happens. It takes it takes some conviction in yourself, and maybe that's first driven by need as in your case, but take some conviction in yourself that becomes 'I have to do something'. And you have to be self propelling. You've several times shifted away from the opportunity to have bigger dollars for the opportunity that had longer runway and long term potential.

And again, our society is so enamored with the numbers in your bank account.

I think that makes it harder. That seems, like, really stupid to do and to many people out

of 1 important step of the story was when I had Orbital for in 2017, because I was doing space program in the rush, I said I wanted to get more education, but I felt limited towards the challenge I had outside. And I applied for George Washington University to do my PhD, And I was doing my doctoral program while managing the space program in Angola. Yeah. And this was 1 of the best decisions I've made in my life because when I went to orbit of failure, I was already the head of space agency, My salary was not that bad, but I was saying, I don't think I have the knowledge that takes me to take the agency on to the...

KS:

Next level.

Yeah. That we need to be. And why I said this was one of the most challenging thing to do in my life because the education in US is very rigorous and was my first experience to go through such a thing. Yeah. I had to really adapt completely. And, it taught me not to be victimized. Right? Because Yes. What happened a lot in life is I had one of the best advisers for my doctoral.

And sorry to be very open. First, I thought he was being racist with me. I was like because he was very tough with me. But then I actually saw my potential and says, 'Zolana, this is the bar I want you to reach'.

That's why I'm pushing you.

Exactly. Yeah. I don't care what are your excuses. I don't care if you're sick. I don't care if you're fired. I don't care if you need to travel back and forth. I don't care.

I'm not your therapist. Exactly. I'm your professor, not your therapist.

But, actually, he did very good favors. So he actually push so that I could actually reach higher potential than I never thought.

That's also important testament to you. Yeah. Self aware and humble and committed to always taking the next steps to make yourself better. So you're not someone who sits back and says, I'm here and I'm done. And, you know, now you should just all adore me. You are, you know, you are continually reaching for the next level of improvement. And the other part I love about your story goes to that, you know, that notion of having a plan. I mean, your government taps you on the shoulder and you tap 5 other young guys on the shoulder, and you look each other in the eye and say, the minister wants a space agency.

Any of you ever done a space agency before? No. Okay. So let's think this through. What do you think? And and up to you in a much tougher scale, what I loved about my astronaut experience in the early shuttle days was, I mean, did if you watch the shuttle missions on TV, it would look a bit repetitive. They get aboard, they launch, they do some things, they come home. But every mission in those early days was the stuff we were doing on the mission, noone had ever done that exact stuff before. So we knew people would know how to we can get people to space and back. We got that part.

But, you know, operate the satellite, deploy that that satellite, deploy the Hubble Space Telescope. You know, there's never been one of those before. And so, you know, you're gonna you're gonna have one in your cargo bay, and we need you to get it to where it's flying around on its own. And we had the fun like you did with the space agent sitting down saying, so I don't know.

What do you think we do first? You know, and you write down, you say, oh, you know, probably we should do that before this.

And then you go to a simulator or a practice session, and you just keep shaking out all the the fine points and the details, and you you build you build by you build by learning.

By learning. Yeah. And a lot of mistakes. I mean absolutely. Mistakes in leadership. Yep. Mistakes in engineering. Mistakes with human relationships.

Yep.

And what I've learned today, there are certainties that you never learned in books, you never learned in school.

You only learned by doing them.

By doing them. Yeah.

And, you know, one of the I think the the what drives that lesson, really to its highest point for me is, not I mean, none of there's only one thing any of us can do truly absolutely on our own, and that's have the start of a good idea. And everything else from there requires some other people helping you, joining you, advising you, correcting you, whatever it might be. So you're gonna have to you're gonna have to get to that crucible

Yeah.

Where it's all those things you said. It's the engineering. It's the plan. It's the strategy. It's the people. It's the relationships. I just pissed you off. You're working.

You know? Yeah. And we gotta get through all that and keep going. Yeah.

And be able to open, to be put always at the last place no matter what.

Meaning what? Tell me more about that.

So what I've been seeing today a lot, especially with young guys is when someone is does him something that he doesn't like with words or any injustice, it's the end of the world for them.

Ah.

So if you want to build muscles in life, you have... I call this person you you have to swallow some stocks. Right? Whether you like it or not. Because what happened actually is

And build some resilience and resources.

Exactly. Resilience. Because you cannot build these things if you're not good in building different background, cultural, team discussion. Yep. Not only national level, international level as well.

Right. And down at the microcosm of a team of 5 or 6.

Exactly. We should be able to be 70 what we are today.

You know, this that ability I mean, I worked with a number of wonderful people in the astronaut corps and and our mission support teams. I worked with now and then with people I thought were toxic leaders. I just really didn't like them. You still have to work with them. You know, sort of this it's a little bit of get over yourself, roll with the punch. What you just felt was a punch might have actually been an intentional punch. The guy's a jerk. Might also have been completely inadvertent, unintentionally.

You took it as a punch. And so just

You have to just

settle down a bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Because some of these things are actually preparing you.

Well, like your professor, who you first felt was punching on you because of your race, and you could've gone back on your heels. I need to get out of here. It's not gonna work. I'm walking away, and you didn't. And to his credit, he sort of shifted gears as well, and he helped because it's kind of incumbent on him to shift the relationship. Right? He's the he's the senior person, and he had the good grace and humility to shift the relationship.

The relationship.

And I

have a lot of course that didn't take that. They just talk

Right.

Yep. The second. Yep. We were course of 30. We finished, like, around 8 or 9. Yeah.

So here we are at Inter Astra, the wrap up day.

We're earning our keep, and soon we get to go have some dinner and some wine.

But I'd like to know a couple things from you.

I'd like to I'd like to know if there's a a person in particular who spoke or who we had a chance to visit with in, in the conference, in the retreat, who particularly inspired or impressed you. I'd like to know if, if there's sort of best nugget of insight or wisdom that someone here got to you.

And are there any things about what it will take to make the new space age?

More people involved, wider array of businesses, more diverse participation.

Are there aspects of that challenge that that did not get discussed well enough here that you would hope Inter Astra can touch on later?

The first question is, it's very hard to pick a specific person. It's just the complete system

Okay.

Of different people talking and sharing that's point of view. So I can rate all the way from I learned the the terms adjacent space interspace

Space adjacent.

Space adjacent players were here.

Right.

And I was just impressed how much they educated me on what is space. What is the importance of space? What it means actually, the space adjacent guys taught me more than and the space guys. Interesting.

Yeah. Exactly. Interesting.

I was really blown away with a lot of remarks and comments, especially on the breakout sessions

Yeah.

On the perception about what is space, what we need to do with space.

And one positive thing that I can say I'm taking out from the from here is the convergence points between what are the needs, expectation for emerging countries in space, what are the needs, expectations for developed countries like US in space?

What is the perspective?

And this middle ground or common denominator, why we need to work together to push for space. Because in emerging countries, sometimes we feel like, why are you going to Mars?

Why are you focusing on numerous flight? What? I got problems here. Exactly. So I was really dedicated more deeply on why we need to do that. Right?

So when I saw things like sustainability on how we can make space more sustainable, debris removal, and with the detail on discussions, I'll say, oh my god. We need to support that. So I mean, one of the if I can say that, one of the most important thing I saw here in the industrial was the ability they had to bring astronauts and that guy that does not understand the importance of space to come up and agree on the same point.

Right? For me, it was a big takeaway.

And to, you know, to exchange respectfully. It's so it's not that the space professional is the important and real person, and there are all these other peasants running around who just don't understand. Right? Yeah. That's gotta be a 2 way equation. You don't adore you don't have to adore the space, kids, and you yeah.

Yes. We should this you know, it never happened.

We should listen to the people who come from a different place than us.

Exactly. And you don't find this anywhere Yeah. Because conferences normally are really space driven or either expert to be

be Or deal driven or expertise. Yeah.

Yeah. Driven. And then and I have to confess initially when I was come and say, who gonna teach me what space? You know? I see this I see this young guy, Tyler.

What is What's he gonna teach me?

Yes. Yep. So

He might be surprised. I see

this guy is a doctor. Who's gonna teach me about space?

It's gonna give you some different perspectives on your space activities than you would get.

Definitely. They've changed completely my view.

Yeah.

And one of the things I was pleased to see is that the misconception is that we take is that the people that don't pay attention on supporting, emerging countries is a space, and I was wrong.

Actually, there is, more people are worried about on how we support more emerging countries. It's just that there is this gap, and we don't know. We don't communicate.

Right.

We have the perception they don't they don't care at all. It's just that.

Well, each has their perception the other doesn't care.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So that's when a lot of big takeaways.

And something we should have been talking about but didn't get to? This is Inter Astra when we're trying to think about the emerging the new space era and bringing new people in different countries. And, you know, no one talked about the this. Any blank spots?

Oh my god. This is really tough because I think you guys just cover from a to z, if I can say. It's actually it's hard to process everything

Yeah. Yep.

That was discussed.

When we had so many in the sessions I was in.

One of the things that, you know, was really impressive and and stimulating and powerful is that the array of people is a circle of, say, 15 people and the incredible variety of backgrounds that we're in one circle, in one conversation, talking together. So it's, you know, you never like you said about conferences, you don't get that span of inputs and perspectives and those contrast in inputs and perspectives, that don't end up in shouting matches that actually are actually are each person genuinely listening to the other one.

Yeah. And not just saying, oh, that's just wrong, but saying, well, then, no.

Help me understand why you say that. Yeah. Really exploring together.

One thing I use a lot with the with my team, with with the leadership is the concept of the cup filled with the water. Somebody does conferences. We come as a cup filled with the water, and they say, you guys have just to listen to me. You don't have space to accept more water in your cup. So and here, what I filed was just to give an example, how can just what happened here, how I never dreamed that I'll be interviewed by Kathy as an astronaut. But would I find Kathy?

Would I find professor (Mike) Massimino? Where would I find?

And I was seeing people like you guys listen to us. This is impactful, you know, because the conference is sometimes even to come closer to you is almost impossible. Right? So, and this, I think, gonna give a lot of motivation for people coming here, especially people are not used to to do that, to meet with you guys, discuss, because we always see you guys in books, in Internet, in beaches.

And

Well, but the ground rule for here that I think I think is what creates, that dynamic that you just said is by mutual agreement, Everyone who comes here is meeting everyone else as a peer. So I just chatted a while ago with Stella Marcy, who's just in her 1st year of high school, but she's here as an Inter Astra young professional. And I think one of the things that impressed, you were saying the same thing, is I'm not a little ant wandering amongst the giants. I was just actually a respected person here. I'm younger, and I'm at a different point in my career, but that that did not make me lesser in anybody's eyes. Yeah.

Kathy, if I can say for conferences, I've been going and I've been traveling a lot in conference worldwide. This concept is something that, is unique. I know for Kathy and some people here may say, you know, but for us who are coming and see you guys sitting on the same group's table, so it's like Charles Bolden. He was on my panel and listened to him. What I'm saying is my opinion. I mean, so Yeah. I mean, for me, that was the best of all this. Right? And best.

So what I recommend for future, would be, bring some more diversity because what I believe is that a lot of people out there, they need to get inspired to do more. And it's a waste because some people, they won't value as much as other people that, they don't have access to these capabilities, all these impressive, pool of experts or even agents, space industry guys. Because when you see a guy who is an investor, right, why do you wanna have access to it? Yeah. You know? And I believe what Intra Astra does is disrupt the way emerging countries is being perceived that they are not welcoming on conferences like that either because of cost, either because of the access, either because a lot of restrictions.

Well, I think you have just created the best advertising pitch for the the next Inter Astra retreat. So I wanna thank you. It's been thank you for sure. I'm so sorry. Thank you for letting me push you all the way back through your whole life story. It's too inspiring and too instructive to let it go unfold.

I like to tell all the time.

It's a great story.

Thank you so much, Kathy. It was a really pleasure meeting you.

Thanks so much for joining me on today's mission. For more solo shows and deep dives with incredible guests, along with all the ways to get the podcast and much more, head over to kathysullivaneexplorers.com.