Shownotes
Welcome to Common Sense Ohio, your beacon of common sense talk in complex times.
In this episode, we dissect the collision of personal responsibility and big government. From the far-reaching consequences of a container ship accident and the role of trial lawyers in safety to the implications of public union influence on government decisions, we don’t hold back.
We consider the historical Presidential defiance of Supreme Court rulings and question policies that favor wealthy entities while claiming to support the blue-collar American.
Are we nurturing a dependency on government aid at the cost of personal responsibility?
Top Takeaways
1. The Importance of Accountability:
The episode emphasizes the need for holding responsible parties accountable for their actions, particularly in cases such as the accident caused by a container ship.
2. Public vs. Private Sector Unions:
The hosts debate the rise of public sector unionization and its impact on government spending and political interests. The political dynamics of public sector unions negotiating with government officials using taxpayer money are highlighted.
3. The Rule of Law and Separation of Powers:
The episode brings attention to the importance of upholding the separation of powers and the rule of law as fundamental principles of democracy, as demonstrated by concerns over the defiance of Supreme Court rulings.
4. Financial Responsibility and Forgiveness:
A recurrent theme is the skepticism surrounding government financial assistance programs like student loans and the PPP. The potential for creating societal division and undermining personal responsibility when debts are forgiven is discussed extensively.
5. Lessons from Low-Level Jobs:
The hosts share anecdotes and argue that low-level jobs, like those in the service industry, teach valuable skills and work ethic. These positions are seen as stepping stones to future career advancement rather than permanent careers.
6. Second Amendment Debates:
The conversation includes a dialogue on the Second Amendment in light of a recent legal case and historical perspectives, exploring the rights of citizens versus non-citizens to bear arms and the founding fathers' intentions.
7. Degree Requirements for Lawyers:
A law passed in Washington State that allows individuals to practice law without a traditional law degree draws attention in one segment, prompting a discussion about potential changes and regulation within the legal profession.
8. Government Aid's Diminishing Returns:
There is an expressed concern that becoming reliant on government financial relief may lead to a reduction in individual responsibility and long-term negative consequences for taxpayers and the economy.
9. Understanding Context in Communication:
Highlighting the importance of context, the hosts emphasize careful consideration of sound bites and speeches and media biases in the wider narrative, as seen in media responses to different political figures.
10. Living by Christian Principles:
The episode also references Good Friday and the importance of standing up for others, with echoes of Christian teachings and the pursuit of truth as a show goal. This reflects the hosts' engagement with moral and ethical considerations in their discussions.
Memorable Moments
00:00 Aid others to find path to morality.
07:40 Ohio law requires union membership in certain shops.
18:15 Discussed PPP program and government conditioning.
20:50 Talk of FEMA, rebellion, COVID, and wealth.
34:52 Censorship discussed, exploiting platforms for counter-programming.
37:40 Researched and posted about member's TikTok accounts.
45:17 Debate on human nature: control vs. self-correction
54:29 15 states sue over new student loan plan.
01:03:10 Government force, Alexander Hamilton.
01:05:01 Debate on citizen ownership of military weapons.
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Transcripts
Alright. Here we are. Common Sense Ohio, March 29, 24. 3/29/24. Here we are. And it is Good Friday, here at the studio, common sense ohioshow.com. And those who wanna check out common sense ohioshow.com, guess what? You can just go to common sense ohioshow.com. We're We're just talking about this.
Steve Palmer [:You know, we our likes are up on Facebook. We're getting a lot of engagement on Facebook. I mean, things are happening. The show is spreading like wildfire, as we predicted it would, but, you can check us out. We are brought to you, of course, every week. I guess, week in week out, we are brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting. I just had I just had another call with with Glenn Harper over there at Harper Plus. And, you know, we're not only talking about we we were already talking about next year.
Steve Palmer [:So he's in he's in the midst of
Brett Johnson [:No way.
Steve Palmer [:Of tax season. Really? And anybody who's got a small business has worked with anybody, like, a real accountant in tax season, like, you don't get a hold of him.
Norm Murdock [:Like No. No. No. No.
Steve Palmer [:But he called me. We went through my numbers that because April 15 is right around the corner. And, and then he said, alright. So next year or for this year, here's what we need to be doing. We made some adjustments to the payroll. We made some adjustments to withholdings. And, so, you know, already on it for next year. That's why he is my accountant and could be yours, Harper Plus accounting.
Steve Palmer [:You know, a lot of times are for how many weeks now we've been talking about World War 2, but I'm gonna shift gears. We got a lot of other stuff to talk about, but I wanted to maybe add something in because it is Good Friday. I mean, it's not like this day in history changed the entire Western civilization
Norm Murdock [:Or anything.
Steve Palmer [:Except it did. Except it did. It did. But, right. So I I I I I I I I'm not shy about my Christianity or or my belief in my faith in Christ. But I I read this passage this morning, and it really I I I should have just read it without saying where it came from because it's, it's sort of, it fits across the board. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person, someone might possibly dare die. Now the preceding passage, of course, is you see at just the right time when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Steve Palmer [:You know, and the and the point here is that it's so easy to say I'm gonna go take up a just cause or what I perceive to be a moral person I'm gonna stand for you or I'm gonna stand for you, and we'll go fight together. You know, and you see this nonsense. It's actually not nonsense. You see this playing out, in the streets with people protesting with whatever. Yeah. But, you know, there's in in Christianity, there's this notion that Christ took up the cross for those who didn't deserve it, you know, who for the ungodly, the unworthy, all of us. Right? So we were all fall short in the eyes of God, and Christ takes up the cross for us. You know, so think about that.
Steve Palmer [:When you're when you're on your righteous high horse, on your soapbox, even us here at this table arguing about it, like, there is 1 in history, one one man, son of man in history, who said, I'm gonna do it for everybody. I'm gonna die for everybody. And all you have to do is just say, thank you.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right? Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:That's all
Brett Johnson [:you have
Steve Palmer [:to do. Right. All you have to do is say thank you.
Brett Johnson [:We we
Steve Palmer [:don't we didn't earn it. We didn't deserve it. Nobody deserved it. But, that's what he did. Now you don't even have to believe. Right? So take it away from my faith for a minute and just think about that. Stand up sometimes for people who don't deserve it.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Or you
Steve Palmer [:think are are less than moral. And and maybe and and by doing that, you're actually helping them find the path towards the morality. And and that's sort of that is that is my faith. That that that's sort of the tenet of it. It's like, not only do we like, you can just say, alright, we've all deserved salvation because of what Christ did, and we received the gift, and we have faith, and we believe. But then the step 2 is sort of how do we at least show that we want to earn it? You know, like, we follow in those footsteps. So by somebody doing that for us, it leads us down a more moral and righteous path. So I think if we picked up the cross for somebody else, at least metaphorically speaking, who maybe isn't so worthy in our eyes or less than worthy in our eyes.
Steve Palmer [:And there's lots of scripture we can talk about, like, judge not, lest he be judged. Right? And, you know, it sort of had it gives me a little bit of thought about what I do day in and day out representing folks in court. You know, I get this fundamental question every time I every time I talk about, like, how do you represent those guilty people? And, you know, that piece of scripture I should identify, it's from Romans.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Hold
Steve Palmer [:on a second. I just turned off instead of all.
Norm Murdock [:The the other thing I'll I'll interject this while Steve's searching. The other thing that Steve does that people, you know, some attorneys are way more generous than others and I know Steve. I'm not trying to advertise you go in there and ask for free stuff. Steve does a lot of pro bono things to help people who don't have money, who need some legal advice. I just wanna say that that is one example of the way that Steve tries to live Christ's words And I know that means a lot to you, Steve.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it does. I appreciate that.
Norm Murdock [:And I just wanna say that because that your your stock and trade is your time.
Steve Palmer [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:And you're giving it pro bono, people, means for free.
Steve Palmer [:It means for free. So when people call and say, hey. I just got this quick question. It sort of started with with this podcast and and the radio show 997 I used to do. It's like people call and I sort of point them in the right direction. I can't always do the work for free, but I can, often at least give people my attention for whatever period of time that takes. And, anyway, that was from Romans, 5 verses 6 through 10. Go check it out.
Steve Palmer [:It it it sort of moved me as I researched. I was gonna I was gonna do a little history of Good Friday. And for those who don't know, this is the day. Right?
Brett Johnson [:Right. Right. Right.
Steve Palmer [:This is the day. So, you know, and and that that sort of hit me out of Romans. And, it was, I think a good way to to kick it off. So everybody maybe can learn a little bit from that. And I've always said this as I got into Christianity and particularly reading the scriptures, both Old and New Testament, find something bad in there. I dare you. I dare you to try Find something that you can't, you know, it's like a rule book for life. And it provides sort of the baseline, the fundamental baseline of what I perceive as morality and and good behavior.
Steve Palmer [:And I also know intuitively, I fail day in and
Norm Murdock [:day out. We all do. We all do.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know, it's like I be weary of those who say they're always perfect and always consistent and always right. And, that in in in some ways, that's what we do here. I think that's a good way to sort of segue this back to the show. It's like, we try to be right, we try to take on different viewpoints. We argue amongst ourselves at times, we argue amongst others who are commenting on our Facebook page or wherever at times. But the idea is to pursue the truth at least in a common sensical way. And, you know, I'll kick it back to you, Norm. Sometimes when we get a fact wrong, we try to correct it.
Steve Palmer [:And I think that's what you were talking about doing today.
Norm Murdock [:So I asked my my friends here, my my, colleagues if I could open the show with a correction. So I was talking about the unionized situation in Ohio whether it's a private company or a public employee. Oh, and I used the state I used the phrase, it's a it's a and this phrase does not apply to Ohio despite me using it. I was incorrect to use it. I said that Ohio is a right to work state. Ohio is not a right to work state but it is a hybrid of the concept of right to work. And the hybrid, the the the dispute involving the, teacher and now there's a case coming up from Kroger, the Kroger grocery company. Same issue.
Norm Murdock [:Ohio law this is why I got confused thinking it was right to work. Right to work means that you don't even have to be in the union if it's a union shop. In Ohio, you have to be in the union if it's a union shop. But what you the hybrid is that you can decline that portion of your dues that goes to political activity. That is a separate, signature requirement in in Ohio law. Kroger, just to give you some some context, so Kroger in this litigation, the union and Kroger were deducting dues for political purposes, as well as the regular union dues for this particular employee that's suing and it was on a single form. In other words, a single signature was given to this guy. He had to sign the form doing both things, both actions.
Norm Murdock [:I agree to deduct my union dues and I agree to have, the political PAC money taken out of my paycheck too. And he was not given a second form to just decline or approve the PAC money and so the litigation is about that. So we're not a right we're not a full right to work state but we're some kind of hybrid in between no protection and right to work. It's we're in between. So I wanted to make that I wanted to clarify that because I stepped in it by using right to work state.
Brett Johnson [:You know that hybrid situation, that's kind of common sense.
Steve Palmer [:It does make some sense.
Brett Johnson [:Doesn't it? I mean at least you're allowed to you you're allowed to opt out of things you don't agree with. Yes. If you're you're forced to be to be in the union, but you don't want to give to Planned Parenthood or or a PAC because that's not your political party or your or your Or whatever it is.
Norm Murdock [:Whatever your belief is. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:It's sort of like a micro example of what our government is not doing these days. They're taking our tax dollars and spending them for political purposes that people don't agree with. So when if our government, for instance, is backing abortion clinics and you don't agree with abortion, you know, your your tax I I don't have any control over that.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. At all.
Steve Palmer [:And and there is no this is an interesting legal point. It's like, it's also relevant to the most recent, US Supreme Court decision or argument on, on Dobbs or on, the abortion pill. It's like, which does not turn on abortion pills at all. It turns on something called standing, which is what I'm talking about. So in order to bring a lawsuit, in order to challenge a law, in order to actually take up the cause of a of a law you wanna declare unconstitutional, you have to have something called standing. In other words, I have to I have to be aggrieved in some way, shape, or form. It has to impact me. I have to be a litigant.
Steve Palmer [:So I can't just go file a lawsuit because if something happened to Norm or Brett, I it has to happen to me.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And generally speaking, there is no broad generalized taxpayer standing. So if your tax dollars are going to something like funding abortion clinics, I don't get to file a lawsuit. Yeah. Based there's no general taxpayer standing.
Norm Murdock [:They throw those out immediately.
Steve Palmer [:They throw it out immediately. Yeah. And there there's some exceptions where taxes are earmarked specifically. So we're gonna we're gonna tax this and then give it to that. Yeah. Sometimes there's some exceptions.
Brett Johnson [:Like tobacco.
Steve Palmer [:Like
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Maybe it could be, I guess, an example.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe like schools or, you know, you could you could pick something. But rarely does that happen.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So
Steve Palmer [:rarely does that happen.
Norm Murdock [:It used to be we had this sovereign immunity that was complete and and now the states and the federal government have, in certain cases, actually passed legislation that says you can sue us on for the following subjects. Yes. Like automobile accidents.
Steve Palmer [:Yes. So what that those are those are legislative grants of of standing. So there can be standing, but only because they say so. So there and there is a court in most states in Ohio, we call it the court of claims where you can go see the government. Now it sucks. They call it the the litigants or the the plaintiff lawyers who go have to file or have to file against government entities in the court of claims. They usually call it the court of no claims because Yeah. The damages are are severely limited and Good
Norm Murdock [:luck. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Good luck. Single judge who's working for the government that you're trying to sue. But anyway, that's a that's a different discussion. But so the other the other point that's relevant to this is, the difference between private unions and public unions. And, you know, there there's it seems to me, I don't know why most people or or people don't talk about this more, but having a public union that gives money to, say, Joe Biden, and and and he's he's found himself crossways with the auto workers now. But, you know, the like, he he enjoyed All of
Brett Johnson [:that they
Norm Murdock [:endorsed him.
Steve Palmer [:All they endorsed him. And the teachers during COVID Jesus. Were were pumping tons of money into the people's the the governmental politicians whose decision it was to shut down the schools and let the teachers go home. Yeah. You know, so if you don't think that that had an influence on what was going on, you're crazy. So Yeah. You know, public unions are a touchy subject for me. And it's you know, because now we're leveraging against the government as in, you know, what's gonna happen.
Steve Palmer [:You know, you you get government bending to the will of the unions instead of Yeah. Instead of independent operation on behalf of everybody who's not in the union.
Norm Murdock [:Even heroes of the Democratic Party like, Franklin Roosevelt were against classic Democrats. They were against unionization of government employees.
Steve Palmer [:That's what I mean by public unions. Yeah. Government employees.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And and and for obvious reasons because, you know, as we've seen as it's rolled out, you know, since the fifties sixties where the growth in the labor movement has been in the public sector. It has not been in the private sector. We we have 4 or 5 Honda factories, for example, in Ohio. None of them are unionized. So the unions have been defeated in many private sector areas. Tesla, not unionized. It's you know, BMW, Toyota plants, all these plants now where the UAW used to have a wrap around control of the auto industry.
Norm Murdock [:It's really only the legacy companies that they represent anymore. You know? Because workers are able to I think I think they don't vote for the unions because the safety measures, you know, the the old Upton Sinclair that where a guy falls into a meat grinder and they keep making the hot dogs. That stuff's not happening anymore as as much. I mean, there was a guy in the steel plant that fell in the bucket. But, otherwise, it's pretty safe on the job now compared to a 100 years ago. And, you know, employees have rights against a wrongful discharge. Well, and You don't need a union. No.
Steve Palmer [:Correct. There there are OSHA is out there. Exactly. There are other, rules in place about, children working and, you know, whatever. So but, you know, think about it. You've got a you've got a public sector union. So say, the teachers or say, the air traffic controllers or say, whoever, whatever the union is
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Negotiating with the president to spend our dollars. Yeah. Right? Not his dollars.
Norm Murdock [:Or county commissioners or or state school boards. Yeah. The whole thing.
Steve Palmer [:And we don't have a say so. So, like, in the in the private sector, the unions are leveraging against the private owner of a company. So do go have at it, man. You know, do what you want. Unionize and and negotiate a fair rate. And if it's not fair, the the company's gonna say no. I'll bring in somebody else. Whatever it would be, you know.
Norm Murdock [:And then go on strike, do whatever you need to do.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Whatever you would do. But in the public sector, that it's a little bit different dynamic there. Right.
Brett Johnson [:And they
Steve Palmer [:go like, the whoever they're negotiating with, it's not their money. It's ours. And then they get to spend our money to advance their own political interest. Yeah. So when Biden is catering to the teachers' unions, he's doing it with our money. And he gets elected.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So, like, there he has a counter incentive, maybe a separate incentive rather to getting the best deal. Yeah. Like, he doesn't care because he's not spending his own money, spending ours. Yeah. And as I always say on the show, it's really easy to spend other people's money.
Norm Murdock [:The blueprint the blueprint was set, you know, by Ronald Reagan when the air traffic controllers walked out. He's like, we're not shutting down the airline industry. Like like, you're you're mad. And he just replaced he he fired them and replaced them.
Steve Palmer [:That was part of the contract though. So, you know, there that was they had a contract that I think that they said they weren't allowed to walk out. No matter what, they couldn't strike and walk out. And, when they did, Reagan fired them all.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. He said, well, you violate the contract. They're gone. Right. You know, so,
Steve Palmer [:And look, having a present with with that had the metal Yeah. To do stuff like that. Like, it that's what that job takes.
Brett Johnson [:That's right. It does.
Norm Murdock [:That does.
Steve Palmer [:Whether you agreed with that decision or not, he made the decision, and he solved the project.
Brett Johnson [:And it was legal.
Steve Palmer [:It was legal.
Brett Johnson [:They signed off that they will be let go if you want.
Steve Palmer [:And and the weakness that we're experiencing now from the executive branch is, like, try to mosque people happy in Michigan while at the same time sort of acting like you're abstaining from votes. And, you you know, the whole thing is just you've got to pick a horse and ride it.
Norm Murdock [:I think I saw in the news, to your point about COVID when when the teachers basically, you know, forced using, you know, their contract language and and frankly their monopoly over school districts. I think I saw where a parent group got together and they're suing the, NEA and the the Chicago Public School System because those parents lost a couple years. I mean it's a generational loss for those children and and and they're like, you know, you just you forced my kids not to go to school.
Steve Palmer [:It is I I get it. It's sort of old news, but it has never really been thrown on the table how atrocious and how, I I I I wanna use the word evil these COVID policies were. When you look back, how wrong these politicians were.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And and you look at, like, the teachers' unions. And how do you not question what the motive of that was? And, you know, it's like they were so wrong. They destroyed businesses. They destroyed kids' educations. They destroyed, like Right. It just it in all so people like Fauci could get rich. Right. So the unions would, so the executive branch would favor the unions.
Steve Palmer [:And look.
Norm Murdock [:I told and and and my son and I were talking about this. I I visited my my son's, that's that's where I've been traveling, racing and visiting family but I talked to my sons about student debt forgiveness, so called debt forgiveness. We talked about the PPP program. My son pointed out, I had not quantified this, that the PPP program which was thrust upon the country as a way to mollify us, like it turned Americans otherwise would have been outraged to be out of work and to be told that they, you know, that they're gonna have to take an economic hit. So to assuage Americans and to mollify them and really cow us as a society and condition us to expect the government, you know, is gonna babysit us, Matthew told me that the largest transfer of wealth from the government to to to people, Welfare, if you will, was the PPP program.
Steve Palmer [:Well Oh, well, sure.
Norm Murdock [:It was the largest benefited
Steve Palmer [:it benefited the most wealthy people Yeah. Out there.
Brett Johnson [:And it's yes.
Steve Palmer [:Companies like, I know look. Big and small.
Brett Johnson [:100%.
Steve Palmer [:I have talked to Yeah. Businesses. So I've talked to small businesses that friends of mine who runs more
Brett Johnson [:not in law, but small
Steve Palmer [:businesses in other areas. And they had a huge windfall because of the PPP, and it was completely totally lawful. Yeah. I talked to big corporations. Like, look at some of the big corporations that took PPP money. I mean, it was 1,000,000. Yeah. And and all that was completely unnecessary.
Steve Palmer [:Exactly. And, look, I people,
Norm Murdock [:people
Steve Palmer [:were bragging me. Hey. You got your PPP money though. I was like, yeah, man. I effing I I had to make payroll or lose all my employees. Exactly. So mine went out the door to the employees. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right. To do labor that didn't really exist because Yeah. Right. Everything was shut down.
Norm Murdock [:And Steve.
Steve Palmer [:So I had I had to, you know, I did them I did them all fair.
Norm Murdock [:So so so And if
Steve Palmer [:I didn't do that I would lose my employees. So
Norm Murdock [:the context now of this Of
Steve Palmer [:course I lost him anyway.
Norm Murdock [:But but now we're caught up in this context having been through COVID in this PPP debacle, and and now we're talking about real in comparison, a pittance of money to to pay off these student loans. Right? But they've got the American people. People have it in their head. Like even 911 victims that were in the World Trade Center, their families got compensated for what was a terrorist attack which is unprecedented in American history.
Steve Palmer [:Right. We talked about this on show.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You know, and and then we've got FEMA and and people get get taken care we have all these babysit and then so people would have been in the streets. People would have been telling Donald Trump and Joe Biden in the streets in 2020, 2021, 2022. They would have been rebelling against these COVID policies. This transfer of wealth bought us off. It turned us all into welfare queens. It the whole country got, you know and and a lot of people like you say, Steve, they had those loans forgiven. Like like they were
Steve Palmer [:Everybody did.
Brett Johnson [:I think everybody did. I was thinking about that too.
Steve Palmer [:Not only
Brett Johnson [:that. The large, like the NBA and these large entertainers. I don't think did anybody pay any back? No. No. I don't think they gave you.
Steve Palmer [:Very few. And not only that.
Norm Murdock [:Not only that,
Steve Palmer [:they forgave the tax.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It's crazy. Right.
Steve Palmer [:It's all crazy. Like when when they first forgave the loans, you would that's a taxable gain. So guess what? You student loan advocates. I want my loan. Like, that was it. That was supposed to be if I give if if the government gives me a loan or or say you give me a loan, Norm
Norm Murdock [:Like an FHA backed mortgage.
Steve Palmer [:And then you forgive it. That's an accretion to wealth. That's we should talk to Glenn about this, but that's taxable income to me because I now have received Yeah. Money. Yeah. That's and what the government did next is they forgave the tax. So it's like, you know, they it's like they grossed up the gift so you didn't even have to pay tax on it.
Norm Murdock [:It's it's unbelievable. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Because I know I've I've mentioned on the show too. I mean, I I was awarded. I I got through 2 of the PPP things and but I went into it thinking I'm gonna pay this back. I did not sign on the bottom line lightly. Yeah. Because I I looked at it both times going, okay, I'm gonna pay this back. And a lot of A lot of don't take it.
Norm Murdock [:And a lot of similarly situated people did not.
Brett Johnson [:I know. They said Oh, just did it. Let's worry about tomorrow tomorrow. No. I'm saying
Norm Murdock [:a lot of similarly situated people because you took it you took it to be a a real loan. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:A lot of people did not apply because they're like, well, I don't want a loan.
Norm Murdock [:I don't wanna go deeper with that.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Exactly. You know,
Norm Murdock [:I'll shut down my restaurant and go out of business because I don't wanna go into debt. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Right? And and And they didn't get anything.
Brett Johnson [:And they got And other people got
Steve Palmer [:And it was forgiveness. So it's it's a it's a nice little segue into the student loan thing too, you know. It's
Norm Murdock [:like so
Steve Palmer [:when when we're talking about forgiving all these loans
Norm Murdock [:The rest of us are paying and are generational. I heard
Steve Palmer [:some you're right. I heard some it it was a it was some democrat. I think it was a senator. I can't remember who it was. He's like, this doesn't cost the American public anything. It's like horseshit.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, my God.
Steve Palmer [:It costs us 1,000,000,000. I mean, it's like when we're when you forgive debt, so somebody owes you. So if you're you loan your buddy $2,000 because he just fell short 1 month and you're doing the right thing.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:But it's a loan. You say, look, man, I need this money back. And then later on, you say, you know what? Don't worry about it. Yeah. Like, that cost you $2,000. That's right.
Brett Johnson [:And what it what lesson does he learn as well?
Steve Palmer [:That's right. So what yeah. Exactly. So you're teaching
Brett Johnson [:a a a totally different story.
Steve Palmer [:Complete irresponsible Irresponsibility for personal decisions.
Brett Johnson [:All these students, irresponsibilities, like, next time they'll want more and they'll want more and they'll want more. Well, hey, come on. They wiped my loan out. I'm buying a new car. Come on, bank. Will you wipe out my loan?
Steve Palmer [:How many people like, I'm glad you brought cars because I was just gonna say it. It's like, how many people have made a dumb decision at the car lot? Almost everybody at some point.
Norm Murdock [:Sure. We all have.
Steve Palmer [:When you drive home and it's a used car and you're like, holy crap. Right. What did I just do?
Norm Murdock [:I just
Brett Johnson [:need it
Steve Palmer [:up for $500 a month and this thing's not that good. And you look at the value of when you get home, you're like, ugh. Yeah. This thing's upside down already. Yeah. Well, guess what you do? You suck it up and pay it back because you learn that lesson. And then the next time you go to the car dealership, you don't do it.
Brett Johnson [:You're like,
Steve Palmer [:I'm not getting sucked in this time. I'm not going to that back office to talk to that manager this time.
Brett Johnson [:Or you don't go
Norm Murdock [:to that dealership. You don't
Steve Palmer [:go to that dealership again. Right?
Norm Murdock [:This is why adults I'm gonna
Steve Palmer [:educate myself.
Norm Murdock [:This is why under our system of law, you know, for most purposes, only adults can enter into contracts, not children.
Steve Palmer [:That's right.
Norm Murdock [:So you're an adult, like, take responsibility for your student loan or your home loan or whatever it is.
Steve Palmer [:And if these loans, I've said that this is this is what is more flabbergasting to me. If these loans are so bad Yeah. And these kids all got duped
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And they they shouldn't have signed up for them, then why in the f is our federal government still in the business of loaning out money for student loans?
Brett Johnson [:Well, it's like 4 3 fingers pointing back at you. It's like Right. You're doing bad. It's like, wait a minute. Right. Right. Well, I'm the company loaning it to you.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I mean I'm
Steve Palmer [:still doing it. That changed nothing. It's
Brett Johnson [:a good point.
Norm Murdock [:This has become a thing now.
Steve Palmer [:And until they stop, the college prices are gonna keep increasing.
Norm Murdock [:Well, every everybody views uncle Sam as the, you know, like the first bank that they go to.
Steve Palmer [:It's like, dad, can I have $20? I'm going out.
Norm Murdock [:So so in 2,008 with the with the subprime crisis, we bailed out all these banks. And we shouldn't have.
Steve Palmer [:We absolutely should not.
Norm Murdock [:We bailed out all these borrowers.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:And we and and then we now we're bailing out at the bottom of the Fortune 500 is Intel. Just last week, under this stupid budget, 1,300,000,000,000 that Hopefully,
Steve Palmer [:it won't it won't pass.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Several It's not
Steve Palmer [:getting by the house.
Norm Murdock [:It passed by the house. But
Steve Palmer [:No. The senate budget. The the 12
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Now it's gotta be passed by the senate. But I'm just saying Gotcha. The house $16,000,000,000 from the from the taxpayers. Everybody gets bailed out and now we're we're conditioned to think that. So so this this cargo ship hits hits that bridge. Right? Yep. Biden says the same day that well, the next day because it happened in the middle of the night.
Norm Murdock [:But he said said in the morning that the federal government is going to finance and build that bridge.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Well, that's a little different, though.
Norm Murdock [:Well, hang on. Janet even his treasury secretary, Janet Yellen, said, you can pay for that upfront, but we should be going after Lloyd's of London or whoever insured.
Steve Palmer [:That's right.
Brett Johnson [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:And we should be going after the cargo ship company. Why is it your knee jerk reaction is to say the taxpayers' burden is to rebuild this?
Brett Johnson [:Because because the US kid fell down has a has a bloody knee. That's right.
Steve Palmer [:I need a bank. It's a political move. Now look, it's a little bit different for look. And here's where here's where the even the staunchest libertarians will start to maybe not the staunches. Here's where I, anyway, will start to have some sympathy or some agreement with the government spending dollars. Look, our federal government's job is to do things like take care of infrastructure on interstates. You know, that that's Of course. That's partly what that's that that is a legitimate federal government charge.
Steve Palmer [:We're talking
Norm Murdock [:about who ultimately should pay.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Now so look, the federal government stepping in and getting this done quicker is one thing. But it to the extent they're gonna forgive the container ship
Norm Murdock [:For God's sakes.
Steve Palmer [:Who apparently had another crash, not Yeah. A couple years back. I don't know. But, it's like, look, if if the fault is that ships, that ship is insured. So this is, like, this is sort of a tantamount to me getting in a car accident on the way home. It's simple as Shutting down I71 for 2 hours, and the government saying, don't worry, we're gonna cover that. Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I can see the government re this happens in law all the time. So right back to law. Right. Happened right out my parking lot. Sure. Some semi illegally parked in my parking lot Sure. Without his trailer, backed into the utility pole. The lines go down onto the road.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And now we have to call out the the, the basket trucks and, you know, fire department was there, the police were there, the private, cable guy was there for Spectrum, and then the
Norm Murdock [:the power of that cost.
Steve Palmer [:They all bought that cost.
Brett Johnson [:Instead of the guy who caused the
Steve Palmer [:accident. Except, it'll now go to court, and the guy who caused the accident will have to make a restitution. He will have to pay back those entities, including the government for the loss. Now if our federal government like Yoland is saying, if our federal government is gonna step in and get this done in the quick, then that makes some sense to me.
Norm Murdock [:Makes total sense.
Steve Palmer [:Now, sure. If they're gonna do that and forgive Lloyds of London or whatever insurance company funded this thing.
Norm Murdock [:That's madness.
Steve Palmer [:That's madness.
Brett Johnson [:That's madness.
Steve Palmer [:That's madness.
Norm Murdock [:Right. And and and I studied Admiralty Law. If if I was gonna do any kind of law coming out of law school, I wanted to do that, but I didn't wanna be a lawyer. But admiralty law is very simple. It's comparative negligence and they are 100% at fault. I mean the container ships wanna you compare I mean the the people of Baltimore did nothing to cause this.
Steve Palmer [:And I don't know what I didn't read deep I should probably should have, but I didn't dig deep into what actually happened, why I mean, that they lost control of it or they lost their steering. It looked
Brett Johnson [:like that looked like from the video I saw, the ship lost power a couple of times.
Norm Murdock [:Couple of times.
Brett Johnson [:Probably messed with the navigation, I'm assuming. And it just Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And it happened lots
Brett Johnson [:of cards.
Steve Palmer [:They had enough advance notice at least to get the cars off the bridge, and I I know 6 maybe even more people died, which is Yeah. Insanely tragic.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So those people have wrongful death claims against that container ship.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, pay up. Right. Pay up. Why you
Brett Johnson [:pay that's why you pay the insurance.
Steve Palmer [:Because if you don't make them pay up, then what's gonna prevent them from taking measures to prevent it the next time? Exactly. You know, what's gonna incentivize that? So this is why when people talk about tort reform and lawyers and these horrible trial lawyers, you know, it's like, well, wait a minute. You know, because of the horrible trial lawyers, we have the safest cars we've ever had on the road, you know, and it's like, it's not because the government enforce this crap, it's because trial lawyers step in and say, no. You're not allowed car manufacturer to do that kind of math and just have faulty seatbelts or exploding gas tanks or whatever it is. We're gonna sue your ass.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And if you do it next time, you'll learn.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Because if you don't hold the freight container company to to task, they're gonna keep doing like you said Or
Steve Palmer [:they won't fix it.
Brett Johnson [:Or they won't fix it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:If that's what they wanna do, then no insurance company will insure them.
Steve Palmer [:That's right. No.
Brett Johnson [:They're out
Steve Palmer [:of business.
Brett Johnson [:So let the insurance companies basically say, we're not insuring you unless you do this.
Steve Palmer [:Right. It's amazing. What the market what the market The market can
Brett Johnson [:do it. It. Right?
Norm Murdock [:In my own little business, so people probably know, from our show here that I sell, racing parts. So I will have guys at least once a week, once every 2 weeks, send me an email wanting me to sell them a kit to put a fiberglass bumper on their car in place of the DOT crash tested mandated bumper. And I always tell them no. That my fiberglass bumpers are for race cars or show cars only. They are not for street use. And they're and they want me to coach them through the process of converting their street car. And I said, woah. It would be one thing if it's just you in the car and you're making this bonehead move to reduce the crashworthiness of your car.
Norm Murdock [:But you may have children in there, your wife, other people when you sell the car won't even know that you did this modification. Yeah. So it's exactly what you say, Steve. If you're going to if you're going to accept liability, then be prepared to pay for it. And I am not prepared to pay for people putting race car parts on street cars in in violating the integrity of the car.
Steve Palmer [:And a wrongful so these kind these are product liability cases. Yeah. So in a situation like that, you the person injured can sue all the way up the chain. All the
Norm Murdock [:way and they're not getting me.
Steve Palmer [:They they sue the person. Well, they'll sue you. Yeah. Well,
Norm Murdock [:I won't sell the parts if you need to do it.
Steve Palmer [:So Right. If if you you might have a defense, but, you know, they'll name everybody up the chain. So if I buy the auto part from Norm and then the manufacturer of the auto part manufactured a defective part and they bought it from somebody else, you know, going all the way up the line to the designer, you sue all the way up the chain. Right. Now and until you find the deepest pocket who's gonna pay it, and then then everybody then the defense all the defendants have to get together and say who's responsible for how much.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And those kind of meetings happen all day long every day in in legal world.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Well, if I can, I would like to address so, we had on the show some discussion about TikTok and I, you know, I was just gonna let that, kind of go because I said what I needed to say during our show? But but then, god bless god bless our readers. I, you know, I and and I hope that more readers make more comments on our Facebook page. That's great. It's great when they don't agree with us. That's fine and it's totally, we're open to that. But since somebody since somebody went off on the TikTok discussion, I wanted to come back with some facts.
Norm Murdock [:So 5 out of the 15 Ohio congress, people, were said on our show to have had TikTok accounts and that that possibly was evidence of some sort of hypocrisy. And I just wanted to address this. I think so I view it completely differently. I think, first of all, all congresspeople ought to have explored TikTok whether they get an account or whether they sit down next to their staffer who has an account. Because if you're going to vote on divestment and force the Chinese government out of the control position at TikTok because they control the the holding company, ByteDance. It it's a CCP army controlled company that owns TikTok. So at any rate, if you're going to vote on that matter, you should have an account. You should know what TikTok is.
Norm Murdock [:You should understand it. So I don't have a problem and I don't see it as a pop hypocrisy for somebody to have an account. Number 2, we for example, our show here. We're on Facebook. Facebook censors content. Okay. They even censor political content. They censored COVID content.
Norm Murdock [:They censored, you know, adverse effects of the vaccine content. They they censor all kinds of stuff. So we're on Facebook. If the argument is somehow that you're not gonna be on a platform that is censored or that does censorship, then we are just as hypocritical under that thesis. And and I disagree that we're being hypocrites. I think that you should exploit any situation you can, regardless of who owns it, the Chinese government or whoever, to send out counter programming, to send out good messages if and and certainly, the 3 of us think our messages are good even if we disagree amongst ourselves. And finally, there really is. So I talked to our producer Dan a little bit and I talked to an IT expert that Steve and I use in our businesses.
Norm Murdock [:And I talked to some other people, Brett, who's an expert on on websites and podcasts, and there is no database to accurately tell who has a TikTok account. Most people use aliases. I could pick an alias of one of those congressmen. So we found 5 names out of the 15. We don't know for sure if those are real accounts or not. And they may be. And it's it's so I'm just saying. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:The other thing is every member of the Ohio delegation voted for that bill except 1. Out of the out of the 15, 14 voted for that bill including all the Democrat members. This was a bipartisan piece of legislation. A 197 Republicans voted for it and a 150 plus Democrats voted for it. So it was almost 5050 both sides. This was something they agreed on. The only nay vote in Ohio was by a Republican congressman and I don't know, you know, his thesis. 1 of the congressmen that was found to have allegedly a TikTok account was in fact a Democrat.
Norm Murdock [:So I view this as a bipartisan. I just wanted to put that out there that I think it's okay. You know, Castro famously said, you know, the the the the capitalist will sell us the bullets we'll shoot them with. And I view us being on Facebook or if we decided not to be on TikTok, our show. But if we were on TikTok, I would view it as, hey, I'm using this communist paid for and controlled platform to to preach anti communism. Right?
Brett Johnson [:So that's all I need
Norm Murdock [:to say. No.
Steve Palmer [:No. No. No.
Brett Johnson [:Well and and I can clarify a little bit too. That was my post and I did some research. I I researched all 15 members that voted and tried to do the best I could going on TikTok and seeing if they had an account or not. And I agree. It's very difficult on any social media platform to really know if it's really that person or not. But that was, you know, the hours worth of unprofessional journalism research that I did. I posted it as just being ironic versus hypocrisy, honestly. But, you know, it just and I think I was wrong in one of them, which you noted, which is perfectly fine.
Brett Johnson [:Hey. If I did something wrong and it's and it's incorrect, I'll be not correct.
Norm Murdock [:If I can jump in, I don't think you I don't think anything you did you know, I'm not challenging that. The comment on our Facebook page was the g so what the reader said is the GOP is a party of say, you know, do what I say, not as I do. And that really rankled me because, you know, she or the reader was obviously trying to make that, you know, hypocrisy Yeah. Argument.
Brett Johnson [:And and
Norm Murdock [:that's where I Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I was gonna say the way I posted it could easily been, you know, yeah, they're punching hypocrites. And I I yeah. I I guess I probably should have, clarified it as more irony than than anything else. At the moment in time, we were talking.
Steve Palmer [:All these things we're talking about are true. So the question is, you know, why not take advantage of a service or a system or social media platform that can vent that can further your own needs and at the same time you can say, well, I think this is bad and we should get rid of the Chinese ownership of it. I mean, is that hypocritical? I guess, on one level, you could call it that on the other level. It just is what it is. We all do it day in and day out.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. We do. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:For sure. You know, I we we took the PPP loan at the same time. I disagreed with it.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. For sure.
Steve Palmer [:And by the way, everybody is saying, no. These guys who say they don't want government intervention, well, they're now they're taking the PPP loan and begging for it. And my response was always, it's because the effing government created this stupidity.
Norm Murdock [:Well, they put us they put us in a hypocritical position.
Steve Palmer [:They took my they took my business for me and then they Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:They shut you down and then and then and then people felt justified to take the
Steve Palmer [:were usually the ones getting paid. Yeah. Because I I All
Brett Johnson [:it justifying the morality of it
Steve Palmer [:or whatever. Exactly. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Go over
Steve Palmer [:to court, and all these people that are working for the government were, like, all, you know, champions for it. And I said, well, when's the last time you got your paycheck? And they're, like, well, last week. I said, yeah. It's been 2 years for me. Thanks.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Or a
Brett Johnson [:year
Steve Palmer [:and a half. So Exactly. You know, shove that up your ass.
Brett Johnson [:I was kind of on the other side. Yeah. I know we're going back to PPP, but I was kind of on the other side. I didn't tell people I got it. I was kind of like, I I got it to tell you.
Steve Palmer [:I I would take up these arguments.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right. You know? And and I'm I'm
Norm Murdock [:I'd say I did.
Brett Johnson [:I just I wasn't proud of it necessarily. It Militators It helped, but it's like, I'm not proud of taking this thing. Militators against,
Norm Murdock [:you know Yeah. Your inner desire is to be self sufficient. Right. And that's what our country is based on is that you go out, you do the best you can, marketplace economy, you bust ass, and then you get reward news.
Brett Johnson [:But but do you know you probably felt it too. Once you took it, it has that little bit of a drug feel.
Steve Palmer [:It does. Like, oh, that that's a lot of money. That's I get that. Right? You know, it's like And
Brett Johnson [:I'm not gonna have to and then the I don't have to pay it back. There was a little bit there. It's easy.
Steve Palmer [:It's the opium.
Brett Johnson [:Something something in my body kind of went, wow. This feels good. It's like, wait a minute. This is not right.
Steve Palmer [:And here's the
Brett Johnson [:danger Because your kids are gonna
Norm Murdock [:have to pay for this.
Steve Palmer [:And here's the danger of this kind of stuff. And, you know, and back to our message that we started with is that we all fall into this imperfection. We all do. This is human nature.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:And some of the stuff the left tries to do is they they wanna re legislate human nature and think it's gonna work.
Norm Murdock [:It's not. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:It won't
Steve Palmer [:work. You can't legislate human nature.
Norm Murdock [:I mentioned conditioning. They are conditioning us
Brett Johnson [:to be
Norm Murdock [:at the nipple and and to and to feed off the breast of uncle Sam.
Steve Palmer [:Like like the PPP or, like, TikTok or, like, all these things. And I see it day in and day out in in, in my criminal practice. If everybody's doing it, then you start to think it's okay if I do it too.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Mhmm. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:You know, you start to feel like Right. I'm gonna do it too. And there's the old saying that misery loves company. Right. You know, if everybody lets their dog crap on the same patch and nobody cleans it up, then you're not gonna clean it up. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We all got those stupid checks from the IRS. Remember that? They were, like, $1200. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I mean during a Bush administration, wasn't it?
Norm Murdock [:What? No. Under Trump. No.
Brett Johnson [:That was under Trump. Under Trump? I'm talking about the COVID.
Steve Palmer [:Remember, he's gonna go big. He's gonna go big, and then $1200 shows up in your bank account. I'm, like, what is this?
Norm Murdock [:And then
Brett Johnson [:some second Bush Bush had the same thing, like, a tax relief. No. No. I'm I'm talking to you. I won't
Norm Murdock [:go back too far. I won't go too far. Okay. It it it conditioned us.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. They're
Norm Murdock [:like, oh, gosh. I got $1200 for free.
Brett Johnson [:That's what I thought about that.
Steve Palmer [:And most people just put in their banks and used it for food or whatever. Nobody nobody needed that.
Norm Murdock [:Again, with my son, Matthew, You've got a son named Matthew, so this gets confusing. But, and they're both brilliant. Your Matt and my Matt. I mean, they're smart. Matt's both of them are smarter than me. Let me just say that. Matt said, dad, right now, it takes 2 workers to support every one person on some kind of federal relief.
Brett Johnson [:And
Norm Murdock [:he said, we're going down the path with these 1,000,000,000,000 in debt that we're heading to. It'll be a one to one relationship. One worker will have to completely support one person.
Steve Palmer [:And we tell you this
Brett Johnson [:is what we
Steve Palmer [:talked about with 1 person.
Norm Murdock [:Oh my god.
Steve Palmer [:Or with Social Security last week.
Norm Murdock [:Then we're done.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's like we so we're we're employing fewer people, and the people we are employing are illegal aliens, so they don't pay any tax anyway. And they're not paying Social Security taxes. So we're employing fewer people And they're getting benefits. And so fewer people are employed, fewer people are paying, and more people are retiring. It's like the the math here doesn't work, folks. This is so when people get all offended and I I blame the Republicans as much as anybody on this because they're not standing up there, like, a few of them are, but 100%. Must have like, Trump's not standing up there saying get rid of this because he's worried about not getting elected.
Steve Palmer [:Somebody is gonna have to bear this cross sooner or later. Somebody's gonna have to say, look, folks, I'm gonna I'm gonna just say the quiet part out loud here. We're going bankrupt. We're going bankrupt. Right? So we have fewer people working and paying in, more people that need it. It's like, there's more money going out than we got money coming in. Yeah. The dollar's on the chopping blocks already in the international world.
Steve Palmer [:And, guess what? Something's gotta give.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Yeah. Well, and kinda to your point, there's a push to put on the ballot in Ohio to increase minimum wage.
Steve Palmer [:Right. That's completely insane. And and,
Brett Johnson [:you know, and and the And California just did $20 an hour. You know, so the quote from Mariah, Mariah Ross, executive director of 1 Fair Wage. This is who's pushing to get the ballot initiative. 1,400,000 Ohioans will get an instant raise.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:Zach, could we look at it differently?
Steve Palmer [:A job. Well, they
Norm Murdock [:might get an instant a walking paper.
Brett Johnson [:This is what they're gonna get.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So within 1 year, they'll
Brett Johnson [:lose it.
Norm Murdock [:Could we look
Brett Johnson [:at this a different way? It's like, how about we create jobs versus create higher minimum wage?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Let's create jobs So what you're doing? That helps alleviate these millions of people that are right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's it's such insanity. It's such insanity.
Brett Johnson [:Right. And so what we think intel is the is the salve here. It's not.
Norm Murdock [:It's not.
Brett Johnson [:It's you have to have a pretty much I I from what I understand, at least a college education walk in that door.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this is Of
Brett Johnson [:of some level. Yeah. It's it's not
Steve Palmer [:And they're not necessarily recruiting within Ohio either. So Oh, no.
Norm Murdock [:They'll be h one b visa people.
Brett Johnson [:He's a hobby lot. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, this is like the old debate. You had John Locke and Thomas Hobbes sort of debating human nature and and and Hobbes would say, because humans are these horrible people that wanna just cut everybody's sword out to get what they want and they'll take what they need and they're gonna go survive, they're gonna do all these things, and we need an absolute dictator to keep us in line and manage it so we should give up control to the Leviathan, the big government to to keep us in check and have the authoritarian regime. And Locke would say, yes, I agree with all that. That's why we don't need the big guy. Like, he he was the exact opposite. Because his point was, we will find a way to get along and work because we all have to eat. We all have to do these things. So humans our human nature is such that this stuff will correct itself.
Steve Palmer [:If somebody is worth more in the workplace, they're gonna get paid more. Yeah. But I'm not gonna go higher as entry level person at minimum wage when I don't get my value back. So what I'm gonna do is force higher level people to do that job, or I'll do that job myself instead of helping some young law clerk in law school. And I'll go hire a lawyer and say, well, screw that. If I got to pay that much, I'll just hire a lawyer.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And then the law student doesn't get experience. And then the lawsuit goes out into the workforce without any experience whatsoever, and that ultimately creates bigger problems. And if you wanna distill it down to, like, minorities and those in need and, you know, the underprivileged, like, they're the ones really getting hurt because who's gonna hire somebody
Norm Murdock [:at $20 an hour?
Steve Palmer [:At $20 an hour who's got zero experience doing anything. You know, if if if my first job, it was minimum maybe even less than minimum wage because it was bailing hay. Then And you just got a handful of dollar bills at the end of the day working for the farmer. And it was like, oh, yeah, but guess what? I learned how to go work and I got some money and it got me in my gas tank
Brett Johnson [:or whatever. You got the farmer's tan the day? I
Steve Palmer [:got the tan the day and I felt like a man for a short period of time. And then I could say when I got my next job, yeah, I used to bail hay. And know, I got my next job it was like 335 or it was less. And, you know
Norm Murdock [:I got to manage the guys bailing the hay the next season. And then maybe the next season after that, like, I I worked during the winter planning.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So you you never get in the door and that hurts. You move up. That hurts the the underprivileged who who you want to rise up in the ranks of our capitalistic society. You know, it's like, we we have a society. Our our system, when left to its own devices and taken out of control of the government, it will elevate you out of the poverty level faster than any other way imaginable.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:Any because I was at everybody here, we were all at the poverty level at one point. And this is the other thing.
Norm Murdock [:A 100%.
Steve Palmer [:Crap money. I was well below the poverty line. Sure. But I quickly elevated out of that because my first job got me my second. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Well And my third. My my daughter the same way. She was in poverty just yesterday Yeah. And she accepted a job today.
Steve Palmer [:Right. There you go. So immediately
Norm Murdock [:Literally. She had
Brett Johnson [:She would come came out of poverty. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:She has a work ethic. Just Your daughter has a work ethic.
Steve Palmer [:She got work experience climbing the ladder. Right. Right. The lowest rung of the ladder is easy, but Right. It's the only way to get to the second one.
Norm Murdock [:At my at my favorite little gastro pub, you know, where I have a drink and a sandwich. When I first went in there 3 years ago or whatever it's been, the young lady waiting on me, is now the assistant general manager. After 3 years, she proved her competence to the owners and moved up the chain and that's the
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. The restaurant is a perfect example.
Norm Murdock [:That's the American story and she didn't start it. So when when Gavin is
Steve Palmer [:Imagine if she imagine if her first job priced her out.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. She never would have had that change.
Brett Johnson [:Because because a minimum wage job is not a career path
Steve Palmer [:At all.
Brett Johnson [:And and again, I I saying that, I know somebody's gonna say, yeah. But wait a minute. There are people that just really will never get more than minimum wage because
Norm Murdock [:of That's probably true.
Brett Johnson [:Difficulties in in life. It's the tiniest person. I totally understand that. I totally understand that. And there are ways to help them.
Steve Palmer [:Yes, of course.
Brett Johnson [:There are. Right. But, if you walk into a minimum wage job knowing this is not a career, this is a stop gap to the next thing. Now, it could be going to management in a McDonald's. Fan damn tastic. Oh, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:That's great. Do you put on your CV, your your professional resume now, your first job? Of course not. No. But I put it on my second job.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:I put my first job on my second job. Right. Right. Right. And my third. You know, when I when I applied for my first job, my resume included things like construction.
Brett Johnson [:You know, and it's not even really the job. It's what you got out of the job is what you talk about.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:You say it's done something. Flight it's those skills. Soft skills that you learned Yeah. By working in a crap minimum wage job at a restaurant.
Norm Murdock [:You cut your hair. You shave. You you wear clean clothes. You learn how the world works. And if you
Steve Palmer [:put it down on a resume, then when I'm looking at people, what what I read is this person's confident about what they did at that job enough that they put it down there. So if I pick up the phone, I can call somebody and say, hey, look. I'm calling about Bob. Right. Bob's here applying for a job. Can you tell me any good? And, you know, when I have people call me like that, it's either, yeah, I can confirm they worked here.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And
Steve Palmer [:that's Or I can say, you know what? Is he a good dude? Dude worked his butt off. Right. He was here before everybody else, and he left after everybody else. And when I didn't even have to tell him to get stuff done, he learned quicker than anybody I've ever it's like, you've got somebody out there. You're creating references. Right. So the next time you get to make the big leap and
Norm Murdock [:I'm gonna give a concrete example about somebody who's on the Ohio Supreme Court right now. I went to high school with Pat Fisher. Now Pat and I were never big friends. Right? Because we had intellectual duels and I was a little mean maybe and and he would he had a mean streak too and we we would get a little vicious. Pat came from a family that was, I I believe, pretty impoverished, very blue collar. He would come across from Kentucky to Ohio to attend our Jesuit high school. And part of the deal was for them to lower the cost of his tuition. This is all public information.
Norm Murdock [:Pat this is this was in his campaign, literature, so I'm not I'm not violating any kind of, confidence here. Pat, after class now this is a straight a student who went on to go to Harvard or Yale, one of the 2 for law school, and now sits on the Supreme Court. Pat was the janitor at our high school. He was a janitor a student janitor. So while we're all studying or playing football or doing all the, you know right? He is in the hallway with a mop. He's now on the Ohio Supreme Court.
Steve Palmer [:Well
Norm Murdock [:A perfect example. Starting at the bottom, it's Horatio Alger. Right? You can advance in our society. Ben Carson, his mom worked 2 or 3 jobs.
Steve Palmer [:Most people don't get to leapfrog.
Norm Murdock [:And that he he You
Steve Palmer [:have to take the steps up.
Norm Murdock [:You have to take the steps up.
Steve Palmer [:You know, my first job working for a phenomenal lawyer named Bill Meeks, William Meeks, and, owned this building before I did. Yeah. I showed up and, you know, the the I got he he always just say, you should pay me to work here. So yeah. But there was something And
Norm Murdock [:he was right.
Steve Palmer [:And he was probably right. Yeah. But you know what my first job was? Like, picking up lunch. Yeah. Right. And, you know Yeah. It did hurt a little bit hurt from that. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I'm picking up, but I'm better than I can Bob. But because
Norm Murdock [:you're in law school. You're like Then
Steve Palmer [:I had to go to the coffee shop
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:At the Kinko's up on Spring and Gay. And then I or wherever that was. And I had to, you know, I had to do all these things. But you know what I did? I learned how to get stuff done. That's right. I learned how to get stuff done. I was a personal assistant, but I learned how to get stuff done. I learned who to call at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles.
Steve Palmer [:I learned how to figure out how to file something. I learned where the Ohio Supreme Court was because I had to run there. I had to go pick up one of the lawyers' aunts to take them to another lawyer's office for a personal injury suit. And guess what I learned how to do? Find that place in the middle of downtown on the east side of Columbus. Yeah. Look up at it. Now now this is somewhat and you can say that this is, Busy work. Or or like anybody knows character.
Steve Palmer [:I learned how to navigate a city. Without a GPS.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Now and you could say, well, that's easy to do. It wasn't so easy when I was 19 or 21 years old in a foreign city. You know, it's like I didn't know how to look up addresses and find places and figure out where to park in the city. I learned how to do all those things. I became very, very resourceful because of that. And then the next year, when they started to trust me to do some legal writing, I got to employ all the skills I just learned to my writing. And you could say, how does that happen? Well, I got creative.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I learned how to I you know, and and those are skills that that sort of cross the spectrum.
Brett Johnson [:And that's and that's cool that he allowed you the room to sink or swim.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Brett Johnson [:Honestly. Hey. Let's let's see what this dude can do the 1st year. We'll give him all the all the flex but he knew exactly where he was taking you. He knew
Steve Palmer [:what he was doing.
Brett Johnson [:Yep. If you could if you could do it If
Steve Palmer [:I could do it, that was a great I was trustworthy enough to go deliver that, then I was trustworthy enough to for the next project.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:It took 2 years, maybe 3, before I was trustworthy enough to take the dog's fecal sample up to the Ohio State vet clinic. That that was like the senior law clerk role. Jovich Jovich was allowed to do that. I wasn't allowed to do that.
Norm Murdock [:Hey. If we can just to tie the knot on this, borrowing and spending. So that 150,000,000,000 that Biden has floated out there, it well, he is he and the secretary of education have actually started taking applications and and prematurely granting forgiveness. But, a consortium must as we know, a consortium of states took him to the Supreme Court and they ruled against Biden, you know, last year. Well, because he's doing it again, like in the face of that decision, he's doing the same thing again essentially. A coalition of states led by the state of Kansas. Our own Dave Yost is not in that group of states yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he joins them. So it's about 15 states currently that are suing that to to kill the the new student loan forgiveness plan.
Norm Murdock [:So I'm I'm just saying, here we go again. Right?
Steve Palmer [:It's if you if you wanna cause a rift, then forgive student loans for kids whose parents have plenty of money. Right. While the blue collar workers and the tradesmen and the people that that didn't go to college or went to college and paid for it, sit there with nothing. Right. You know, it's like, can you create Right. I mean, I mean Where's my program for
Norm Murdock [:my plumbing tools?
Steve Palmer [:Think of the divisiveness
Brett Johnson [:of this. Well, and if you think about it, okay. So it's a democratic thought going on here and it's well, on the outside looking in, totally white collar. It's kind of the reverse you would think you would be going blue collar with this.
Steve Palmer [:You would think. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Trade school loan forgiveness. But it's That you know
Steve Palmer [:The the liberal
Brett Johnson [:It's not honest. It strange. It's all
Steve Palmer [:about the voters. Right? So it's the the liberal college kids voting for that that that's a you're buying votes.
Norm Murdock [:It is a election year gambit.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You're
Steve Palmer [:buying votes. That's all that is.
Norm Murdock [:And I think the kids are even, cynical about it because the first
Steve Palmer [:Screw it. I'll take it.
Norm Murdock [:Well, he's he announced the first program and then the Supreme Court said, hey, you don't have like, you can't
Steve Palmer [:And then he's gonna do it anyway. He's gonna
Brett Johnson [:do it anyway.
Norm Murdock [:So the students are like, yeah, I'm not counting on this. It's gonna he's gonna get slapped down again.
Brett Johnson [:And again, one of the one of the example he any president in the role, whether it's Biden, whoever is, that says the court says, no, you can't. He comes right back. I was like, yeah. I can't. I'll just lower the price. It's the
Steve Palmer [:first time.
Brett Johnson [:Come
Steve Palmer [:on. That I've seen that. I I'm sure it's happened historically, but Biden does it repeatedly.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. He I
Steve Palmer [:don't care what the Supreme Court says. I'm doing it anyway. I don't care what they says about Dobbs or doing it anyway. I don't care what they said about student loans. I'm doing it anyway. I don't care what they said about the board. I'm doing it anyway.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:I don't care what they said about guns. I'm doing it anyway.
Brett Johnson [:And he's setting precedent because the next president will do the same thing.
Norm Murdock [:The last most outrageous example I can think of was Andrew Jackson evicting the Cherokee Nation. Right? The Supreme Court we we had Cherokee congressmen in Congress back then and they were told quit speaking your Native American language, whatever the Cherokee people spoke. You need to publish a paper in English and you need to speak English and you need to dress up like Western you know, like wear a suit and a tie. Right? So they did all that. The Cherokee Nation had an English language newspaper. They spoke English. This is when they were in Georgia, I believe, the Cherokee Nation. And Andrew Jackson was told by the US Supreme Court that he could not evict the Cherokee.
Norm Murdock [:And he said, the Supreme Court doesn't have an army, and I do. And he evicted them. He did. The tale the trail of tears, you've heard that phrase, refers to the death march of the Cherokee Nation to Oklahoma from Georgia in the in the in the in the grips of winter. Right? And they go from this lush environment to this flat plain where there's no tree like
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Not their native environment at all.
Brett Johnson [:At all.
Steve Palmer [:Totally different. Right.
Norm Murdock [:And he did that. He flew in the face of the Supreme Court. And, this is the same thing, although it doesn't involve death, but it is absolute defiance of of a Supreme Court.
Steve Palmer [:So there's a threat to democracy to use the trope that they're throwing around. It's that.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:It's that. If we have a separation of powers and we're supposed to respect it, it only works if we respect it.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:It only works if you have the ground rules. Like, the monopoly game doesn't play if you don't follow the rules of the game. And, you know, but you could say the biggest strongest guy, is gonna follow the rule is not gonna follow the rules, is gonna make him up as he goes. The game doesn't play. People quit.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Or
Brett Johnson [:at least be smarter about That's
Norm Murdock [:the end.
Brett Johnson [:Be smarter about it. I mean, they got they wanted Capone on every every everything, but they got him on taxes. I mean And and okay. So if Biden really wants us through, is there is there a legal way to do it? Maybe there is rather than just being a dumbass bully Well saying screw you, I'm gonna do it.
Norm Murdock [:Brett, you said something grief. You said something so brilliant a while ago that I wanna I wanna use that in this case. Like what message, what mindset is is learned by these decisions by government? And so when you treat the Cherokee like subhumans. Right? You get wounded knee.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:You get wounded knee. You get people you know, the it's they casually will execute subhumans. Right? Because
Steve Palmer [:Well and and look. There's a backlash, and it's coming.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's coming. Look. Biden had the workers. Right or wrong? Agree or not agree? I mean, he did. I mean, he did because the unions were behind him. Like, he he had the workers.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Right. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And now he's pissing all over him with the electric car thing.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right? So And and Trump says it'll be a bloodbath in Detroit. He didn't mean right? That's so stupid. He meant a bloodbath
Brett Johnson [:in Detroit.
Steve Palmer [:Really believe that that he meant he's gonna have it right? Does anybody actually think that?
Norm Murdock [:It's unbelievable.
Steve Palmer [:It's like, let's go Brandon.
Norm Murdock [:He's talked about
Steve Palmer [:Does anybody actually think that that's what they were saying?
Norm Murdock [:He's talking about the industry going bankrupt and and workers losing their jobs. Right.
Steve Palmer [:This is economic,
Brett Johnson [:but if you play that little sound bite over and over and over and over again, it starts to sound like it. Yes. It but put the beginning of it and the end of it, no.
Steve Palmer [:If you listen to that speech, it's it's so obvious. It's real. It's sort of it's like everything else they take out of context. Right. It's so insane. Because I had
Brett Johnson [:to listen to that sound, and I heard the sound bite 2, 3 times 1, and they hit me hard too. I'm going, woah. But you've got to put it in the context of what was said it before and after and the flow of it. Right. No. Probably not. He again, gotta take the guy with a grain of salt. He's not the greatest wordsmith.
Steve Palmer [:No. He's not. He's not.
Brett Johnson [:But But We
Steve Palmer [:have used the words bloodbath around here probably. Oh, that's a bloodbath.
Norm Murdock [:Well, it's like the statues of the Confederates, and he said that, you know There
Steve Palmer [:were good people on those side. Be I I Nobody really thought he meant that the white supremacists, KKK, were good people.
Norm Murdock [:No. I didn't think that. He's talking about people
Steve Palmer [:said it.
Norm Murdock [:He's talking about people like Shelby Steele who you know, people who are scholars about the Civil War, how they have certain opinions about certain statutes.
Steve Palmer [:There are viable arguments about the statutes on each side. Right? That's what That's
Norm Murdock [:all he said.
Steve Palmer [:And you said, Brett, he's not a
Brett Johnson [:wordsmith. No.
Steve Palmer [:He's not. And, you know, now worse than that here's what's here's what's more hypocritical if we're gonna talk about hypocrites. Is that a word? If we're gonna talk about hypocrisy Hypocrites.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Hypocrites.
Steve Palmer [:The things that Biden says, his gaps that the media will forgive Right. Are like over the top. Right. Like, if if you don't vote for me, you ain't black.
Norm Murdock [:Like, Republicans wanna put you back in chains.
Steve Palmer [:Back in chains. I mean, it's like But
Norm Murdock [:it was the Democrats that had them in chains
Steve Palmer [:to be gay. It's so it's so like, his gaffes get a pass.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:But, like, these clear things that Trump says and look, like Trump, hate Trump, whatever, but he's reported fairly. Call it like you see
Norm Murdock [:it. Call the balls,
Steve Palmer [:call the strike.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Sure.
Steve Palmer [:And as I said during Trump's campaign, like, you really you're you're all they're doing is creating power. They're they're empowering him. If you don't like him, you're really empowering because Yeah. In the the funny part is he says enough stuff without having to do that that you could jump all over.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Like, his stance right now on on a couple of things isn't the great I mean, there's there's stuff you could pick on. Right. But no. They they always take the bridge too fast.
Norm Murdock [:About the issues.
Steve Palmer [:They take the bridge too fast.
Norm Murdock [:We we had we had, some commentary amongst us and it stimulated me to do a little bit more a deeper dive into the right to keep and bear arms because we're really talking about federal force to make people do things and at the end of the day, if you don't pay your taxes, somebody with a gun will will escort you to to court and you will go to prison.
Steve Palmer [:That's right.
Norm Murdock [:So, you know, the government does use violence and force to make us do things. So I decided to to research. I went back to 17/88 Federalist paper 29, Alexander Hamilton writing. You know, Hamilton the the big, you know, Broadway show. The Bill of Rights were adopted 3 years later in 17/91 and this is what he said. If you'll bear with me, it's 1 or 2 sentences. If circumstances should at any time that the federal government needs to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people. While there is a large body of citizens little, if not at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms.
Norm Murdock [:Those citizens standing ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens. This appears to me to be the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army to exist. The best possible security against it, the standing army, if it should exist, is the people having arms.
Steve Palmer [:Sure. Sure. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:And and he said and he said, little if at all inferior, which means that the arms that the citizens have the right to bear are in fact, back then, military arms. So when people talk about today that those are guns of war, that's what the hell Alexander Hamilton was talking about.
Brett Johnson [:I mean,
Steve Palmer [:look, the the old the the same would be the battle rifle of the day. So That's right. If
Brett Johnson [:if they
Steve Palmer [:got a musket, we got a musket. Right. If if they got a if they got a semi auto
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:AR 15 style rifle or an m 16 or whatever is. And we should we should be able to have 1. So by they by them, I mean, the army versus the the citizen. So, I mean, look, and then, you know, Brett and I were talking about this the other day. It's not like you can actually defend yourself against a governmental assault with small arms anyway. It's gonna come in the forms of drones and tanks and airplanes. But Exactly. The the point still is there.
Steve Palmer [:The history text and tradition is still there. And and there's there's a reason beyond hunting and sportsmanship that we have a second amendment right to be.
Norm Murdock [:And we were talking about people versus citizens and Alexander Hamilton is talking about citizens.
Steve Palmer [:Citizens. Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:So there's a little Question
Steve Palmer [:is how do you define that we're talking about the the immigrant case out of, I think it was, was it New York? I can't remember. I think
Norm Murdock [:it was New York.
Brett Johnson [:It might
Steve Palmer [:have been Illinois, where, the judge said, no, it violates the second amendment to, apply a law that says illegal immigrants can't own or possess firearms.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And and it and I think you may have made a comment about if, a comment that I made, to if you need 1, a gun. And and again, I've never come out against the 2nd amendment. No. If you if you want to have a gun, that is fine. You sound like It was just a it
Steve Palmer [:was a discussion we were having about
Brett Johnson [:In regards to in in my mindset going, yeah, you can if it makes you feel feel secure, But if the government decides and again, we'll go back to your point. If the government decides to put a all out war against the US citizenry
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Good luck.
Brett Johnson [:It's good luck.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, you might
Brett Johnson [:as well put a target on your home. But that and and and do you wanna live in that country that that happens? If we get that form, my god.
Steve Palmer [:It's it's
Brett Johnson [:it's it's You're fighting
Steve Palmer [:your neighbor for food as well.
Brett Johnson [:Gonna be like a a playground.
Norm Murdock [:And Hamilton Hamilton was talking about the posse committatus and how the government could not turn its standing army against its citizens. But the only way to make sure that wouldn't happen is that the citizens have the right to keep and bear
Brett Johnson [:arms themselves. Right.
Norm Murdock [:It's the counterbalance.
Steve Palmer [:It's the it's the counter. But what Brett and I are saying, look, the balance is way out of whack because what the federal government has the power to do well beyond anything that Hamilton could conceive at the time Right. Exactly. Is so far over the top that Exactly. That your AR 15, good luck.
Brett Johnson [:Well, and we got Jane and John Joy stick in Vegas that can drop drone bombs on anybody.
Norm Murdock [:See and and at the time of him writing this, the US, you know, we had won our independence. The U. S. Did not have a standing army. Right.
Steve Palmer [:That is
Norm Murdock [:so this was part of the debate about if we have a standing army This is then how do we keep it from being tyrannical?
Steve Palmer [:Right. Which is it that makes another point, which is the argument that I hear all the time about the second amendment, which is, for the purpose of a well or orderly militia. Yes. What Hamilton is saying sort of belies that argument. He's saying, look, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. It's not just so we have a militia. It's in case the government has an army and, we don't and the people can't defend themselves against the army.
Steve Palmer [:Fine. I mean, look, whatever the whatever the the historic purpose of it, it still apply or whether whatever the current application of the historic purpose, it still applies. We still have a right to bear arms. Right?
Norm Murdock [:The Supreme Court said it is an individual right.
Steve Palmer [:It's an individual right, and we have it. Yes. So yeah. Like and and look, it it also doesn't say that everybody has to have a gun. No. Fair enough. And like you said, Brett, you choose not to have an AR 15, then don't get one. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You want an AR 15, then go buy 1.
Norm Murdock [:My point was in bringing this up, a lot of people think that it's a quaint, you know, it's a quaint part of the Bill of Rights. Like, it's it's a throwback to an earlier day and and really guns are about duck hunting or collecting, you know, war memorabilia or something like that. No no no no no. The right to keep and bear arms is based on the citizens having the means to mount an insurrection or a defense against the But they made a
Steve Palmer [:second. They made it second.
Norm Murdock [:Second after speech. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Correct. Yeah. Well, and and and, you know, if you start to read, books about these historic figures, whether they're, you know, well known historic figures or not in that time period, 17 100, 70 50, 60, 70s. Those guys Oh. Their education they went through Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Is
Brett Johnson [:nothing compared to what we do today. I mean, it is Yeah. You know, the the the Greek, philosophers, they cut their that's what their their school was.
Norm Murdock [:It truly was a liberal arts.
Steve Palmer [:Education. They studied all the way back to the beginning of time
Brett Johnson [:in order to connect
Steve Palmer [:with these concepts that still hold true today. It's really it's amazing. It does.
Brett Johnson [:It's amazing how smart these guys were in bringing back what worked, what didn't from Roman times and such because that was their school and grade school all the way through college. It's just amazing.
Steve Palmer [:I've said it on the show before. It's like you had you had Adams taken the long trek into the library to study, like, Greek warfare during the revolutionary war and using those tact like, that that's what was going on.
Norm Murdock [:So Adams before he was president. This always blows people away. Adams before he was president. And again, he was against King George the 3rd at the time. He this is a beautiful thing for Steve the defense lawyer. He defended the British soldiers who were accused of the Boston Massacre. He was their attorney.
Steve Palmer [:He was their lawyer. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Which I'm sure he knew he's gonna get backlash.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, he got back. He knew it.
Brett Johnson [:He knew it. Oh, yeah. But but it's that, but they should Right. Be defended.
Steve Palmer [:That's right. And it and it's it's
Brett Johnson [:They should be.
Steve Palmer [:Go read some of that stuff.
Brett Johnson [:It's fantastic.
Steve Palmer [:It's it's fabulous.
Brett Johnson [:It's not
Steve Palmer [:gonna go movie about it.
Brett Johnson [:It's eye opening. It's eye opening.
Norm Murdock [:Well, that incredible movie, series, Adams.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. They talk about it
Norm Murdock [:now. Yeah. It was fabulous, with that, Paul Giamatti
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Playing. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Fabulous. Public television. Yeah. I, it's one other thing about the law. So we've talked about Abraham Lincoln having never gone to law school. You just were an apprentice to an older lawyer and you learned it. The state of Washington is getting rid of, the you don't have to go to you don't need a law degree in the state of Washington now.
Norm Murdock [:I think they passed this law a couple weeks ago that again it was DEI based. It's in one way it's beautiful because it deregulates being a lawyer. But in the other way, their intention is that, oh, you can be a lawyer 10 If
Steve Palmer [:you can't pass the bar exam or you don't you can't get through law school, you can still be a lawyer. Otherwise, it's
Norm Murdock [:In the state of Washington. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Some degree of lawyer then, you're saying. There are certain
Norm Murdock [:is that Oh, no. No. You know. You you're a little more
Brett Johnson [:You can get a license and watch them. Wow.
Steve Palmer [:The the law the the law profession is regulated a lot like doctors, you know. They're they're you have to have a credit to go to an accredited law school. Yep. Every state has a bar exam and I think every state now is part of the multi state bar exam. So we all take at least a multiple guesser portion of the multiple choice portion of the test. The multistate test is the same for everybody, so it sort of standardizes it.
Norm Murdock [:And the Supreme Court in Ohio is the licensure.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You get your license and, you know, you're you're subject to, like the nursing portion. Yeah. Right. Right. And everything else. So I think what they're saying is you can become a lawyer. You're probably still gonna have to do something to be admitted into the bar.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But you can get you can, enter you know, at least get yourself there to knock on the door without going to law school, I guess. Wow. Or maybe not even taking the bar exam. And look, I'm not saying that you should have to. Like you said, Norm, on some level that it's got some appeal. Yeah. Okay.
Steve Palmer [:You know, let let it just sort of happen. But
Brett Johnson [:I would want to see how good they are, though.
Norm Murdock [:See, that'll get you arrested in Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:The the market the market would bear that out pretty quickly, I would think.
Norm Murdock [:I would think. Yeah. And I wonder if
Brett Johnson [:the state of Washington is needing lawyers. You think that might be an incentive too? Because they need
Norm Murdock [:to fill the pot?
Steve Palmer [:I think it's theater.
Brett Johnson [:It's just theater? Okay.
Steve Palmer [:I wonder. I didn't thought about that, though. I am
Brett Johnson [:not bothered that. Because sometimes there's that that's a knee jerk reaction. I wouldn't go. But we need people, so let's let's lower the bar. It's a
Steve Palmer [:gorgeous state. It's a gorgeous state. I'm but I wouldn't go practice there because it's it's great. It's great. Wow. There's there's And they
Norm Murdock [:have cities, like, named Walla Walla.
Steve Palmer [:Yac Yacama. Alright. So we are pushing the bounds of our limits here. You got one last thing you wanna throw?
Norm Murdock [:Sure. I mean, I'll just throw these out. Florida, Disney is settling with DeSantis. Florida also, you must now be over 14 to to to sign up for your own social media accounts. The DOJ wants Google under a general warrant, which is unconstitutional, the words general warrant, you can't do. They want Google to reveal all searches about certain subject matters and give names back to the DOJ. Opening day baseball was, yesterday.
Steve Palmer [:Cincinnati Reds, they always play on opening day. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Yep. Texans because they won the World Series, they they got the, you know, by a minute or 2. CBP, the one app on the phone, we're now up to half a 1000000 people have flown in who otherwise are not eligible. And, the the union says, you know, that's a way for the administration to hide the the number because they don't come across the Rio Grande River now. They're just flying into 43 different airports. The DOJ now has a red flag center. They're gonna coordinate the 50 states, to to to take guns away
Steve Palmer [:from people. Scary stuff. I'm a do a munitions podcast on
Brett Johnson [:that one.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, definitely. And finally, Cole, this author named Coleman Hughes, a an African American author, who put out a book new book called The End of Race Politics, Arguments for a Colorblind America appeared on The View and Sonny Hoffman there called him a charlatan and a pawn of white supremacists and he says, hey, I just wanna treat people without regard to race. He is a Democrat himself and he stood up for himself and said that's an ad hominem account.
Steve Palmer [:He fought back too. He he didn't take that stand. He did it calmly, did it collectively, and he did it with logic.
Norm Murdock [:And finally, I would like to salute our producer, Dan Buckley. You people have the the most useful tool that Dan has. Dan does this incredible job on our full broadcast. If you go to our Facebook page, Dan has indexed by the time of the program where different subject matters are being talked about. And Dan is doing an I can't tell you how much I appreciate that, an incredible job of posting our programs and giving you a table of contents so that if you just care about 1 or 2 things, you can go find that and don't have to watch the whole hour and 15 minutes.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. But while you're there, do a couple other things. Go to commonsenseohohoshow.com and there you can subscribe to our podcast. Or if you don't know how to subscribe to podcast, I didn't until I had to figure it out. You can just if you got it if you're an Android guy, you go to your wherever your Google. If you're an Apple guy, you go to I what is it called for Apple? Apple Podcasts. Apple Podcasts. How would I not get to know that? But we have links on our on our web page, commonsense ohioshow.com where you can do all that.
Steve Palmer [:You can like us. Please share. Please like. Please engage. And if you wanna be a sponsor, do that too. If you wanna be a guest, check us out. You can send a a question and you can use that same, format on commonsenseioshow.com where we are coming at you right from the middle each and every week, at least until now.
