Podcast Show Notes: Aimee's Bitcoin Journey

In this episode, we'll delve into Aimee's personal journey of discovery and transformation through Bitcoin, from initial encounter to becoming a passionate advocate.

Episode Highlights:

• Skepticism and Intrigue: It all began with a Fast Company article that left Aimee intrigued by the concept of digital money.
• Years of Ignorance: Bitcoin faded into the background, but in 2020, Aimee's family's investments reignited her curiosity to take a deeper look.
• The Learning Journey: To invest, Aimee wanted to be knowledgeable. She embarked on a journey of learning, taking courses, reading, and tuning into Bitcoin-related podcasts.
• The 'Aha' Moment: Aimee realized that Bitcoin was something she could own, immune to government control. It aligned with her values of personal freedom.
• Spreading the Knowledge: Aimee started sharing Bitcoin with family and friends, and even her less tech-savvy mom embraced the idea.
• Hope and Empowerment: Bitcoin gave Aimee hope in a world marred by economic disparities and government overreach.
• Reevaluating Higher Education: Aimee's perspective on higher education shifted as she realized that the fiat system needed fixing before college affordability could improve.
• Changing Academia: Bitcoin has the potential to reshape academia by introducing sound money principles across disciplines, creating a culture of financial literacy.

Aimee's journey into Bitcoin has been a path of enlightenment, hope, and empowerment. It's not just a digital currency; it's a catalyst for change that can reshape our financial systems, our education, and our world. Embracing Bitcoin means embracing a future where personal freedom and financial stability are attainable realities. Tune in for an inspiring story of transformation and hope through Bitcoin.

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Visit https://www.meetup.com/womensbitcoinreadingclubwithorangehatter

Please email questions/comments to tali@orangehatter.com

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Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to Unchattered.

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Today, you're listening to a

conversation I had with Aimee.

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Aimee, thank you so much for coming

on to Orange Hatter today and

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sharing your Bitcoin story with us.

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Welcome.

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Aimee: Well, thank you.

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Thanks for having

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Tali: me.

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Can you tell us a little bit about

your background so our audience can

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get to know you a little bit better?

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Aimee: sure.

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I mean, I work in higher education,

my background, um, from, you know,

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My education is in science, but I

work in fundraising and higher ed.

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Tali: And you mention that you move

around quite a bit, during the year.

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Where are you right now?

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Aimee: I'm in Colorado at the moment.

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Um, just dropped, , my younger son at

college and, , You know, I have two boys

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that are in college now and so I'm trying

to spend more time with my parents who are

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getting older and going to be working from

Vermont, Wyoming and Mexico this next year

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with like probably some trips to Nashville

where my older son is at interspersed

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in and other trips to Colorado as well.

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Tali: Very busy.

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can you tell us a little bit

about how you came across.

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Bitcoin, , and what

the circumstances were.

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Aimee: So actually the very first time

I heard about Bitcoin was in the early

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days when it first came out, I think it

was a fast company, um, article about it.

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And the whole thing just seems so weird,

like, like how could you just create

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like a digital money and it would be,

valuable or that people would buy into it.

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And so, and then I, then there were years.

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That I didn't ever even think of Bitcoin.

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I just kind of knew it existed, but

it didn't come up in my life at all.

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And then in 2020, I realized that my

dad with extra money that he had had

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bought, he bought Bitcoin, Ethereum,

and a whole bunch of other stuff.

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And, um.

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And that both of my boys, who, you

know, were still in high school

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at the time had bought Bitcoin.

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And so that kind of intrigued me

and I started looking more into it

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and I thought, well, if I'm going

to buy Bitcoin, I really want to

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understand what it is and how it works.

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And, um.

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I had been during the whole COVID time

gravitating toward Libertarian podcasts,

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and it had been coming up in those, and

there was a course that was advertised

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that was about Bitcoin, so I actually

took that course, which was really just

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listening to, you know, three different,

I think, sessions with someone explaining

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it, and there's, looking back, there's

so, I should re watch those sessions,

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because there were so many things that

he mentioned that, I didn't know anything

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about it at the time, and then I took

another course, and then I started

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reading, and then I followed the What

Bitcoin Did podcast, and I learned a

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lot from that podcast, and it just kind

of folded out from there, and I think

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the moment that really, it clicked for

me, and the big moment for me was when

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I realized that Bitcoin was something

that I could hold, that no one, including

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the government, could take away from me,

that I could actually sovereignly own it.

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That was huge.

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Tali: Yeah that's that's a huge

draw for every single Bitcoiner.

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What was your first impression

when you came across it again?

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Other than the fact that your family

members were investing in Bitcoin?

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Was there any like, what was your

number one doubt about Bitcoin at

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that time that you had to overcome?

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Aimee: Yeah, you know, I don't think

that I had huge doubts about it.

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I mean, I didn't come to it with a lot

of skepticism like a lot of folks do.

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I kind of had this open mind

toward it and, and just had

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a lot of curiosity about it.

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Um, probably, you know, just harking

back to that article I remember

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reading and some of the, the

questions I had about how can it be

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like, A currency, you know, a money.

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I mean, I just, uh, I'd never thought

of money except for this thing

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that was issued by the government.

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And I'd never really

thought about money period.

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And so to start, you know, delving into

what money was and how money started, and

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you know that money was backed by gold

and then all the things that have happened

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since and the petrodollar and, um, you

know that we can essentially, with the U.

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S.

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dollar with our fiat

currency print energy.

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I mean, I guess that's the rabbit hole

I went down and because I have these,

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I guess, libertarian kind of tendencies

and freedom is really important to me.

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Um, it just, it.

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It immediately resonated with my values.

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So I didn't, I don't think that I

had a lot of skepticism to overcome.

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It was just, I had never

really delved in before.

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And because my dad and my boys owned

Bitcoin, that was the thing that made

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me want to go and learn more about it.

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Cause I thought, well, I

want to get some Bitcoin too.

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And, but I definitely didn't want to

buy something I didn't understand.

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Tali: That's really smart.

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That's really smart.

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So once you learned about Bitcoin,

what was it like trying to share

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it with other people in your life?

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It sounds like your, your family

was already investing in Bitcoin.

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Was it easy to talk to them about

the values that are incorporated?

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I mean, there's Bitcoin, the thing

that they buy, but then there's

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Bitcoin, the protocol, like the

whole ecosystem surrounding it.

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What was it like trying to talk

to them about the ecosystem?

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Aimee: yeah, I think that my sons and

my dad owned it with the idea of the

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number go up like, you know, it was

during the time that it was really,

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hitting its all time high, um, before

the bear market and so I think that's

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really all they were thinking about.

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And, and so, as I was learning, um, I was

sharing with them and my dad, I mean, I

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think part of why freedom is so important

to me has to do with the values that

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my dad, has passed along to me And so

sharing with him that, that you could own

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it sovereignly and the freedom aspects.

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I mean, he, he kind of

like got that immediately.

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And I think that also my kids are pretty

indoctrinated with the importance of

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freedom from both their father and I.

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And so it wasn't actually hard

talking to my family about it.

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My mom, who's probably the least

technical or, you know, the least, um,

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to be like delving into that world.

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I remember we had a long

layover in an airport and I had

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become obsessed with Bitcoin.

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It was basically all I could think about.

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And I wanted to just, I was just

consuming and learning more and

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learning a whole bunch of that time.

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And I shared with her and after two

hours sitting at, this restaurant

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at the airport, she's like,

well, how do I buy some Bitcoin?

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And so, and then, and, you know, I told

her how you could buy a KYC and non

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KYC and the different ways to, hold it.

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Um, so, both my parents own

Bitcoin now, not just my mom.

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And I've also convinced my dad to

get rid of all of the other tokens,

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including Ethereum, because he now

understands the whole difference.

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Uh, and it's all Bitcoin now.

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And, I got them in cold storage, you know,

and have moved them along quite a way.

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But they haven't been the hard ones.

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It's, it's like friends.

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That I bring it up with and I have a whole

bunch of friends in the freedom community

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that I don't, I think maybe they think

we're going to go back to a gold standard

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or that, you know, somehow the internet is

going to go down or electricity is going

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to go down for eternity and we're going

to all be living caveman style again.

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And they, they are very hard

to convince, um, but I do, talk

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with them about like the, yeah.

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Possibility of the CBDC and the, you

know, Bitcoin is your escape hatch and

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we live in a digital world and, you know,

I know that we're used to things being

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very hackable and, very Fragile kind

of in the digital world, but Bitcoin is

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different because it's decentralized and

really the only way to shut it down is

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if, all of the computers that are running

nodes across the world are shut off

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forever and that that's just not likely.

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It's highly, highly, highly improbable.

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And so, they're going to want a currency

that they can, um, use digitally.

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In our world, and not get

trapped in a CBDC, which I hope

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doesn't occur or gets rejected.

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But of course, you want to plan and

have something to have an alternative.

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So that's kind of how I've orange pilled

my freedom friends, my kind of more

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for lack of a better word, normie

friend group, their reaction is

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often like, Bitcoin, like that's,

uh, that uses a bunch of energy, and

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it's really bad for the environment.

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I get that all the time.

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I also get, um, it's not

real it's fake money.

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Um, And I also get, um, well, that's only

for like criminals and money launderers,

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of course, then I have to like explain a

lot and I try not to overwhelm them and

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I do it in little bits here and there and

kind of say, if you want to learn more,

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just let me know, and they do at their

own times, then they will come back to

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me and be like, I really do want to learn

more and I've helped some Bitcoin meetups

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in Vermont with my friends and, and

then just have many, uh, a conversation

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over a beer or, or a dinner with people.

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So I'm actively orange pilling

everybody in my sphere.

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Tali: Yeah.

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And sometimes it's very rewarding and

a lot of times it's very frustrating.

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Aimee: Yeah.

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I would say that initially I didn't

have a lot of patience and I get

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very like kind of frustrated.

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And, defensive of Bitcoin.

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And I realized that if I was going

to bring people into Bitcoin, I had to

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be very patient and also kind of let

them come to me when they were ready

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after giving them, you know, some

juicy little tidbits here and there

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that might be intriguing and kind of

knowing my audience, like what was

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intriguing to my, my more liberal set

of friends is that no, it's actually.

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Really good for the environment and

it could be a huge, way for us to, to

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build a renewable energy infrastructure.

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And it also is able to, um, use energy

sources that would otherwise be wasted.

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So I kind of work on that environmental

aspect with them and then my freedom

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friends, I mentioned the CBDC.

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So it's kind of knowing your audience

and what's going to intrigue them

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and get them to want to know more.

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Tali: Yeah, you, you mentioned the word

freedom several times, in regards to

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your friends, your dad, your husband,

I feel like there's a story there.

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Why is freedom such a big value for you?

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Aimee: Um, well, my dad, he was, uh, he

owned several businesses, he was a general

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contractor, and I feel like he always was

feeling like the state and the federal

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government were just like putting too

much on him as a, an employer and taking

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too much of what he was earning and he

was always kind of resentful of that.

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And, um.

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And he would also say things like you

really don't own your house because

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if you don't pay your property taxes,

the government can take it from you.

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Um, and, so he was always kind of

railing against the system in that way.

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And then my ex husband was, a

huge, uh, pro medical marijuana,

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anti state kind of person.

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And so, I think that I

had, a lot of, like...

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Freedom inclinations from those two

influences and then during COVID, I,

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I guess that's really when the light

for me, uh, because as my background,

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I said, was in science, my doctorate's

in microbiology and molecular genetics.

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And when I saw the response to COVID,

it just, it didn't make any sense to me.

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And then, as soon as the

government was like, we're going

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to shut down for two weeks.

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I'm like, it is not going to be two weeks.

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This is like, a lot of the

freedom grabs they did after 9 11.

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I mean, I remember noticing that back

then, all the freedoms we were losing.

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And, I've been practically resentful

of going through TSA every time

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I have since, which has been many

and thinking it's ridiculous.

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We're still like doing

some of these things.

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And so I was thinking, you know,

it's not going to be two weeks.

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It's going to be a very long time and

then Vermont was extremely, extremely,

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um, what's the word for it, uh, compliant.

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They were very, very compliant.

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And so I felt so alone because

I was the only one looking

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around saying, this is insane.

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This is not how you, how you should

react and deal with a respiratory virus.

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Everybody's eventually going to

get this no matter how much we lock

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down and how long we lock down.

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It's a respiratory virus.

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and, you know, because it was this small

thing that people couldn't see it was

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just so fear driven and it was the same

thing with 9 11 after 9 11 the whole fear

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narrative around, um, terrorism, and it

was just used to take people's freedoms

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away and, and our government, I feel, I

felt ever increasingly since then is,

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it's just become like a cancer on our

country and we've just our government has

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gone further and further away from the

values that this country was founded on.

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And, um, so COVID, I think just

woke up the freedom and love for the

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freedom lover in me, um, in a huge way.

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And, um, Here I was in Vermont, like, one

of four people that weren't complying.

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I did find four other people and we met

weekly to keep our sanity during COVID.

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It was just, it was rough.

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And now, but now we have a really kind

of a, I would say, a much more robust,

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like, what I call our freedom community.

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And we're all networked together and

I helped start an organization that

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helped get us networked together.

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Um, And so should that happen

again, the, the minority won't

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feel so alone in Vermont.

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We'll have each other.

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Hopefully that kind of thing

doesn't happen again, but you

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know, it's probably likely.

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Tali: Yeah, that's, that's a

can of worms that we can, we go

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in there, we'll never come out.

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Um, so going back to Bitcoin, since going

down the bitcoin rabbit hole, what are

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the different areas of your life that

you have started to look at differently?

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Aimee: well, I would say from a

financial, uh, point of view, I

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have, since acquired Bitcoin through

various means, mining, KYC, non

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KYC, to the degree that I feel like

a sense of comfort going forward

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into the future and a sense of hope.

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And, and you hear a lot about the word

hope, uh, connected with Bitcoin and,

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um, I think that's what it's given me,

especially after the very dark time of

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COVID where, it was so easy to go down

the other rabbit hole of, of all the,

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the kinds of things that might be coming

down the pipeline that, you feel hopeless

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and you feel powerless and Bitcoin makes

you feel hopeful and like you have some

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power, And it's, it's very much changed my

outlook, for my work, um, as we mentioned

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before we started recording, I work

in higher education and access to higher

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education is very important to me, but

it's changed my outlook because now I

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realize with our fiat currency and our

debt, I mean, things are so broken and,

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and, you know, with The vast majority

of people that have gotten poorer and

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poorer versus the 1 percent of the 0.

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1 percent that have gotten richer and

richer, like this chasm is just, it

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can't be, um, fixed at this point

with anything, I think, but Bitcoin.

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And until, things come back into balance

with people tending toward Bitcoin as

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a sound money and as a base layer to a

new financial system, the folks that I

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work with, I don't think that they're

just going to be able to change their

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lives by attaining a college degree.

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I think that, they're working within

a system that's so broken that that

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system needs to be fixed first.

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So, I mean, I really would like to

work in some capacity with a Bitcoin

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only company I'm going to a lot of

conferences and building relationships

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with people, and I kind of feel like...

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You know, if you build the opportunities,

it'll eventually come or maybe

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I'll have to start my own thing.

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But, um, I feel like I got, like

I got one foot out of the higher

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education world because it's

kind of like burst the bubble.

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It's made me feel like my job that won't

make a difference because this isn't

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where fundraising to make college more

accessible doesn't matter when the fiat

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system has screwed things up so badly.

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You know, I guess the other thing,

Tali, I would add is that, working in

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philanthropy, the other realization

I've had is that the people that are in

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a position to make large philanthropic

gifts have benefited, they've been on

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the benefiting end of the fiat system.

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And to me, it's so appalling

now to realize that, like.

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Now they're giving that money back to

the other people that they essentially

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stole it from whether they were, they

weren't like wittingly doing that, but

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they, but that is essentially the reality.

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And now they're giving it back to

them with conditions and it just, , it

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just has made me lose so much.

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So much of the inspiration of what

originally drove me and my work

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and in fundraising in higher ed

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Tali: So using your imagination

anything is possible scenario What

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would you like to be able to do to

help with higher ed in the future?

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Like anything is possible using Bitcoin or

assuming Bitcoin is part of the picture.

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Aimee: Um, well, I mean,

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if anything was possible, I

think like changing the economic

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majors and departments at higher

ed would be really important.

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You know, they're all Keynesians

pretty much with the occasional

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outlier who is an Austrian economist.

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And as you know, the economics

departments really just back up the

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current system, the current fiat system.

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And so, if anything was possible, it would

be orange filling those folks for 1st.

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But then also, seeing more academics

who are orange pill, then understand

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it in general from all different

disciplines, I think would be helpful.

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I mean, anything from journalism, um.

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To, uh, computer science, there's so many

areas that if we had people that were

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orange pilled, um, it would really, I

think, change the trajectory of students

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and the careers And the opportunities.

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Tali: So I have four kids who are

college age and we have this debate

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in our living room a lot, which is,

is there a place for gen ed classes?

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most colleges today are requiring

two years of general ed.

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we debate back and forth

on the pros and cons of it.

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That it's two full years of your life.

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It's two years of education,

living expenses, all that

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stuff, all added together.

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maybe they could be done

in a more efficient way or

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a different way altogether

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The price tag is really high.

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And if you think about the fiat

system, you know, when we talk about

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the money supply, one of the things

that I never considered was the fact

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that it was being swelled through

student loans, it just like in my mind,

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student loans and money supply were.

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It's like two completely separate things.

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That's what's happening.

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The student loans, the massive amount

of student loans are contributing

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to the swelling of the money supply,

which is diluting the value of our

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money right through inflation.

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And so it's like a double whammy

for people who are going to

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college trying to better themselves

to try to go for a better life

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something secure, something stable.

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But in the process of that, taking out

student loans, we're diluting the value

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that's already in our pocket and what

they will earn in the future as well.

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It's this weird kind of spiraling, like

mutually feeding phenomenon going on.

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Aimee: Yeah, I totally agree.

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And I think that, um, are a lot

of things that are, I guess we

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could say broken about higher ed.

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I mean, the fact that they have becoming

more and more administratively top heavy.

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The fact that it's an antiquated

system where you have to come

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together physically in a classroom

for teaching and learning to occur.

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That there's so many other resources and

ways that people could be learning that

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are completely free and on the Internet.

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I mean, and, you see a lot of

smaller colleges are going under.

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And I think that's a, that's just a

natural consequence of our changing world.

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And, um, that'll probably continue

to happen with, colleges that

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don't have, big endowments.

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Tali: One of the other things that I

never considered until I heard somebody

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talk about it was the fact that different

majors should charge different tuition.

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Because you, if you have a

creative writing major, why is

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she paying the same tuition as a.

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Computer science or engineering student

major, because they require much more

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expensive equipment and set up than

somebody who's just showing up with

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her laptop typing versus a philosophy

student who's also just showing up

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to a lecture hall and debating each

other, they don't require special

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building equipment set up nothing, but

they're paying the same tuition rate.

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And when they graduate, the engineers,

the computer science people, they're

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going to get are in the higher salary,

these writing, philosophy majors,

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they're going to be the poor ones, right?

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They're most likely their income is going

to be lower, but they're paying back

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the same amount of student

loans, and obviously the building

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of the interest, and then the

inequality starts from that point.

347

Because once you get into debt, it's,

it's a downhill, not even a spiral, like

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what they call, you push The car over

the hill and it just picks up speed going

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down, but they're already going downhill

when they graduate because they pay the

350

same amount, same student loans, same

interest, but one is going to be able

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to earn money faster to pay that down.

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And the other one's going

to be stuck in there.

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So immediately.

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Yeah,

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Aimee: yeah, no, I completely agree.

356

And I mean, as part of why,

uh, the college I work for is.

357

It's very much about access

and affordability and, if my

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personally, if my kids had to

take on debt to go to college.

359

I would be having a different

conversation with them, but I figure.

360

I might as well spend that fiat currency

now, because I would also say that

361

even two years of gen eds, I mean, I

completely agree with you, but on the

362

other hand, colleges, it plays a role

in our society and in the development

363

of young people, but it doesn't have

anything to do with like the academics

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and the classroom piece of it as well.

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So, and I think that well,

my one son is in music, and I

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think that that's an area where.

367

He really develop that through repetition

and playing with better musicians

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and learning from better musicians.

369

So he's getting a very different education

than say my younger son will get.

370

Um, but yeah, I wouldn't have

them doing what they're doing.

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They were going to go into

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Tali: a lot of debt.

373

Yeah.

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And then we go into the

whole legacy system, right?

375

Like the people who can afford it

without the debt versus the people who

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can not afford it without the debt.

377

And, there are so many.

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And the thing is, it's compounding too.

379

So if you go, it's sort of like

that analogy with a car being pushed

380

over the hill, it's compounding when

you're going down your life's journey.

381

If you start out with a ton of

debt versus not a ton of debt.

382

Right.

383

Yeah, right.

384

Aimee: No, I will readily admit that to

a small degree, I, of course, am on the

385

end that has benefited from the fiat

system the system we're in right now.

386

And I, and I, Bitcoin has

been useful in reflecting on

387

that in my own life for sure.

388

But, what I want is

sound money for everybody.

389

So everybody can have.

390

A higher time preference.

391

And, um, did I get that right?

392

The higher time preference

of a good quarter,

393

Tali: uh, lower time, prefer a lower time

394

Aimee: preference.

395

I'm sorry.

396

Why I always confuse that in my head.

397

Um, a lower time preference and they

can save and have hope for the future.

398

I mean, that's what I

really want for everyone.

399

And to get back to a more balanced system

where the disparities between this very

400

small group that's amassing wealth and

this very large group that is going over

401

the cliff and their car is that those

are brought back into balance and we

402

have a middle class again and people can

take pride in their work because that's

403

the other thing about my work is like.

404

At some point I have to realize that no,

no amount of philanthropy is going to

405

really solve the college affordability

issue overall, just like no amount of

406

social safety net programs are really

going to, fix the ills of our society.

407

Uh, it, it really all goes back to,

to the money and fixing the money.

408

And that's why Bitcoin gives me hope.

409

And of course, I think all the developing

countries and the third world that you

410

don't have to convince that the utility of

Bitcoin will get there first and get there

411

last because, until we can no longer

just print energy with our money, a lot

412

of people aren't going to see, uh, they're

going to be too, um, too advantaged by it.

413

Right.

414

The role that the US dollar

plays in the world right now

415

to see the utility of Bitcoin.

416

Tali: Yeah, I'm definitely Understanding

that more and more and the crazy thing

417

is I really consider myself an educated

person until I enter the Bitcoin space

418

and then I I realized that I was so

ignorant and I knew nothing and since

419

entering the Bitcoin space, I've spoken to

people from literally all over the world

420

and just understanding or just talking

to them and getting the sort of the

421

first person account of what's happening

on the ground in those countries with

422

the money inflation that is happening.

423

Something that we have not

experienced on this end and very

424

hard to imagine how they're coping.

425

And so when I talk to people who are

doing okay, they are not in crisis mode.

426

And.

427

You know, obviously, if you're talking

to somebody in crisis mode, that's

428

a different conversation in America.

429

But if you're talking to people who are

not in crisis mode, it's exceptionally

430

difficult to convince them to take a look

at Bitcoin as a money standard, not as a

431

trading vehicle, an investment vehicle.

432

So I have definitely found

that to, be our experience.

433

So the question is how do

we reach the young people?

434

People our age, people who have

lived a career or part of a career

435

have seen recessions come and

go and all the rollercoaster

436

rides that the economy has taken.

437

We can look back and if we're willing

to look, we'll see the problems.

438

For the young people, your children,

my children, they're just at the

439

beginning of the rollercoaster

ride and they're looking forward.

440

So the question is, how do we

convince young people to critically

441

look at what they are entering, the

financial world that they are entering.

442

What do you think?

443

Aimee: Well, I guess I think

that, That maybe we don't have to

444

convince as many people as we think.

445

I mean, I have learned so much about

Bitcoin and Bitcoin has made me

446

reflect on so much, but I'm not sure

that everybody needs to do that.

447

I mean, part of the lightning network

really gives me a lot of hope because

448

I see that as something that people

end up using and they'll use it

449

because it's a better system, not

because they understand Bitcoin.

450

And, you know, just like people use email

and they don't understand how it works,

451

but they use it because it was better

than having to write something out by

452

hand, put it in an envelope, address it,

put a stamp on it, and then, get it to

453

the post office or put it in the mailbox.

454

Um, it's the same thing I think with

the lightning network and I have a lot

455

of hope as that gets built out that.

456

Um, Hopefully that I mean, that

will be adopted and used by people.

457

And at some point, they might reflect

that it runs on Bitcoin rails and but

458

they don't necessarily need to go down

the rabbit hole and become orange pill.

459

To be users and I guess, um, the

participants in the Bitcoin network.

460

Tali: So really quickly, in your own

words, how would you explain to someone

461

new to the Bitcoin space, the difference

between Bitcoin and the Lightning Network?

462

Aimee: Yeah, I mean, I, I use

the phrase that the Lightning

463

Network is a second layer, um,

that that runs on top of Bitcoins.

464

I use the bar tab analogy and explain

the difference between the time that it

465

takes for a transaction to settle on the

base layer of Bitcoin on the blockchain

466

versus the time it takes to settle it

hence the name lightning at the speed

467

of light on the lightning network and

its final settlement and I talk about

468

the fees and that this could replace

Visa and MasterCard and it's, yeah.

469

So I, I explained it as a, a second

layer running on the Bitcoin layer,

470

but then very quickly go to kind of the

nuts and bolts of like, just imagine

471

you have a bar tab and you're charging

things all night while you don't,

472

your lightning node is like a bar tab

and you don't close out your bar tab

473

until you're not using it anymore.

474

And it's the same thing with a node, but,

maybe even with a node, like your bar tab,

475

you close out at the end of the night, a

node you might leave open indefinitely.

476

Yeah.

477

Unless it's forced closed.

478

. Right.

479

So, right.

480

Tali: Um, I was trying to explain

the fees to my daughter, the one that

481

finally decided that she was convinced.

482

, and, between college friends, if they

go out to eat or if they grab an Uber,

483

they would just Venmo each other.

484

Right.

485

It is like no big deal.

486

Yeah.

487

One time, my son as a joke, he,

he and his friends decided to Venmo

488

each other back and forth like

four or five times the same meal.

489

because they thought it was hilarious.

490

I'll give you 40.

491

No, I'm going to give it back to you 40.

492

And at the end of that, he came

home and he told me what happened.

493

And I said, do you understand how

much fees you paid while you're

494

playing that joke with your friend?

495

You know, I, what, what is Venmo like 2.

496

7 percent or something like that?

497

Every time you send money,

you're being charged.

498

Do you understand that's happening?

499

They didn't realize that

was what's happening.

500

Cause it's just a, it's not even

the swipe of a credit card anymore.

501

It's just.

502

Right.

503

It's, it's a touch button.

504

So I was showing it to my daughter

and I said, I said, look at this.

505

Somebody bought something

and we run a store.

506

And so somebody bought something and 2.

507

9 percent of that amount went

to the credit card company.

508

Now I'm going to send you 5 to your

Muun wallet, and that's, that's

509

the lightning network through that.

510

The lightning part of the moon

wallet, moon wallet also has a

511

Bitcoin side, but so I sent it to

her and I said, look at that fee.

512

Cause it, it tells you it was

like 25 sats or something.

513

I said, that's not even

a fraction of a penny.

514

And I send it to you.

515

Now, if you has, if I had

sent you 5 through Venmo, I

516

would have been charged 2.

517

9%.

518

5, 2.

519

9 percent of 5 is not a big deal,

but what if I send you 5, 000, right?

520

Now we're starting

to pay attention, right?

521

And it's just something that,

that they don't think about

522

because it's just numbers.

523

They don't see them on touch the money.

524

You know, somebody said if we had,

if all of our income was like wheat

525

in the field and they were put into

a wagon and every time we were taxed

526

or we had to pay a fee, it came from.

527

The wheat that they removed from our

wagon, there will be a revolution

528

because people's eyes will be opened

to what's actually happening right now.

529

They're just numbers that

are just moving all around.

530

And it's just, if you don't pay

attention, it accumulates so fast

531

and you don't even realize it's gone.

532

It's gone to the banking institution

or the routing system or whatever

533

it is that they want to call it.

534

But the fees are sucked out of the

money that you work so hard to earn.

535

And then just, yeah, here and there,

just, you know, just sucked out,

536

Aimee: use that.

537

And I feel like young people just accept

fees as that's just part the cost of doing

538

business or just part of their world.

539

They just accept it if, if they

were to wake up to the fact that

540

through Lightning, they don't

have to be giving up that value.

541

I think that could be huge.

542

And I think that's huge

for retailers too, right?

543

I mean, they really, I think, notice

it because they're paying a lot.

544

If they're accepting credit card

payments, they're paying a lot

545

to the credit card companies.

546

And I was even explaining to my

massage therapist, like, it'll be

547

great when you can, if you can take

lightning payments, because then you

548

won't be paying these credit card

fees and you'll be paying fractions.

549

Pennies on the dollar, and she

was very interested in that.

550

And I was explaining that, , one method

for onboarding retailers to, um, the

551

lightning network that's out there is,

the whole idea of the retailer offering

552

a discount of some portion of those fees

back to the customer to incentivize them

553

to use the lightning network for payments.

554

Yeah, I can't wait till it

dematerializes Visa and MasterCard

555

and that whole infrastructure.

556

And then also, we'll talk to my kids

about the centralized versus decentralized

557

nature of, the traditional financial

system versus Bitcoin, and why that is

558

so important to being able to censor

or shut down, Bitcoin, whereas like

559

with Venmo, it seems like, A very

similar digital money is digital money.

560

Right.

561

But then you explain like, well,

they can just do what they want

562

and they could just cut you off.

563

Tali: Yeah, definitely.

564

So I have a story so my husband's uncle

was running a bookstore and he was selling

565

through, I think it was eBay at the time.

566

This was a few years back and eBay was

sending money to his PayPal account

567

. That's how he, he would pay his bills with

it and he would receive payments with it.

568

It's basically his bank.

569

PayPal was his bank and somebody

filed a complaint against him

570

because of whatever reason.

571

And his eBay store was

immediately shut down.

572

His PayPal account was completely

shut down and he had no access

573

to any money just like this.

574

His entire livelihood was shut down.

575

He could not buy groceries.

576

He couldn't pay his electric bill.

577

And it's, you think the

money is yours, but it's not.

578

Aimee: No, I mean, it's a similar

thing with like the Canadian

579

truckers rally just, amplified even

more if government gets involved.

580

You know, if they bring their full

power and force to bear on the financial

581

system, yeah, your money isn't your money.

582

It's it can be gone like that or

frozen or, it can just disappear.

583

Tali: Yeah, for sure.

584

Um, any last suggestions,

recommendations for women who are

585

sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

586

Aimee: I would say just get off zero.

587

It's so funny how I have several friends

who I feel like have the knowledge.

588

They, attest to me that they've

been orange filled and they believe

589

in Bitcoin, yet they can't somehow

take that final step to purchase it.

590

So, you know, no matter what the means

is, you know, like purchase a little,

591

some Bitcoin and get off zero, quit, quit.

592

Tali: I talked to someone the other day

and she said, one day, there's going

593

to come a day when you want to buy a

Bitcoin and there's going to be non

594

available because it's not unlimited

like everything else out there.

595

It is a limited, I mean, she was so

good at creating that sense of urgency.

596

Even I was listening to

her recording afterwards.

597

I was like, Oh my gosh, she's right.

598

I got to go buy some more Bitcoin.

599

Aimee: I know that that is a good tactic.

600

And I'm, and they're like, but Bitcoin is

so down, you know, from its all time high.

601

And I'm like, yeah, that, that

means it's a great time to buy.

602

Tali: Right.

603

It's on sale.

604

Aimee: Right.

605

It's on sale.

606

This is a wonderful time to

607

Tali: buy.

608

Exactly.

609

When I went down to 16, I was

like, oh my gosh, what else

610

can I sell around my house?

611

So I can go buy

612

Aimee: some 100%.

613

Yeah.

614

Tali: Yeah.

615

Well, I want to thank you again

for spending time with us and

616

for sharing your story with us.

617

It was wonderfully fun for me.

618

Thank you so much.

619

Well,

620

Aimee: thank you.

621

Thanks for reaching out.

622

And I'm just honored

to be on your podcast.

623

I really appreciate

624

Tali: it.