If you’re worried about a colleague’s drinking (or your own drinking), it can be hard to know what to do.

In this episode of HR Coffee Time, Career Coach Fay Wallis is joined by the Founder of Choose Sunrise, Janet Hadley, who shares her experience and expertise.

Key Points From This Episode

[00:00] Further information on Fay’s group coaching programme ‘Inspiring HR’

[02:40] An introduction to Janet Hadley

[02:56] Janet shares the story behind her business – ‘Choose Sunrise’

[07:38] Janet talks in more depth about her husband’s battle with a brain tumour 

[10:27] Signs that may indicate struggles with alcohol   

[11:47] How alcohol can be a vicious cycle for your mental health

[14:48] Fay refers back to previous episodes based on stress, anxiety and resilience:

• Episode 10: Tackling stress & building resilience
• Episode 43: The one thing that will boost your resilience throughout your HR career
• Episode 52: Two ideas to help you bounce back from a tough day at work

[21:43] Janet shares advice on how to have a sensitive conversation with someone who is struggling with alcohol

[24:48] Fay refers to episode 48: How to support your colleagues with bereavement at work

[31:48] Implementing conversations around alcohol for HR and people professionals within the workplace

[37:07] Janet’s book recommendation - Alcohol Explained by William Porter

(Disclosure: this book link is an affiliate link which means Fay will earn a small commission from Amazon if you choose to purchase the book using them)

[38:06] How to connect with Janet

Useful Links

• Connect with Fay on LinkedIn
• The Bright Sky Career Coaching website
• Video: how to rate & review HR Coffee Time on Apple Podcasts
• Inspiring HR’
• Connect with Janet on LinkedIn

Rate and Review the Podcast

If you found this episode of HR Coffee Time helpful, please do rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

If you're kind enough to leave a review, please do let Fay know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: fay@brightskycareercoaching.co.uk.

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Welcome back to HR coffee time. I'm your host Fay Wallis. If we haven't met before, Hello, I am a specialist career coach for HR and people professionals. And I'm also the founder of bright sky career coaching. And before I dive into the episode, I just want to let you know that there is a space available on my inspiring HR group coaching programme, we get started on the 28th of October, we meet every Friday as a group on Zoom for two hours from one o'clock to three o'clock, over six weeks. And it would be lovely to have you join us if you would like to, I will put a link to the inspiring HR programme in the show notes. Or otherwise, you can find it on my websites, bright sky career coaching, just go to the services for individuals, and you'll find it right there.

But anyway, let me get back to the main part of the show. So if you haven't come across HR coffee time before, it's a free weekly podcast, especially for you to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR career without working yourself into the ground. And this week, we're tackling a slightly taboo subjects, alcohol. The episode is being released on the seventh of October, which means we're in the middle of the month that has a big focus on stopping drinking, because Macmillan runs their go sober for October campaign. It's sometimes called sober October for short. So whether you're worrying about your own drinking, or you want to be equipped to support people in your workplace with their drinking, there is lots in this episode to help because I have a fantastic guest for you.

She is called Janet Hadley, and she very generously shares her personal experience and expertise with us all in this area. I really enjoyed meeting Janet, I really enjoyed recording this episode with her. And I think that you're going to enjoy hearing from her too. So let's crack on and meet her now. Welcome to the show, Janet, it's wonderful to have you here today. And to get things started, it would be great if you're happy to just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background and your business.

Perfect. Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here. My name is Janet Hadley, I am a 45 year old woman with three teenage daughters, who is currently doing a juggling act of being employed and setting up a startup business. And playing the piano and running and lots of other things as well. So very busy person.

So as a busy person, I'm very grateful that you've taken the time to come and talk to me today. And to dive straight in really to the topic. I'd love to hear and I'm sure everyone listening would love to hear what it was that inspired you to set up your business choosing sunrise.

Yes. So Choose Sunrise is a business that is founded on the fundamental belief that nobody should ever feel afraid to ask for help with alcohol use. And there's obviously a story behind that as with all businesses, so I stopped drinking in the first lockdown in 2020, I realised that my relationship with alcohol have become a little bit dark is how I describe it. I'd gone from being a very happy social drinker who grew up in the 90s and spent my formative years downing pints and keeping up with the boys. So I was sort of a bit of a ZoeBball kind of wannabe, I think, and it never seemed like a problem until much, much later in life.

And for me, the turning point was when I had some really bad news. So my husband was diagnosed with a brain tumour. And the shock of that, I found that I was drinking for the wrong reasons I was drinking to forget and to numb out from the kind of pain and grief that I was feeling rather than to be sociable. And I I was terrified, actually, because I didn't want to ask anyone for help, because I thought that people would think that I was an alcoholic. And that also that people might think if I stopped drinking, I'd be boring. And I thought I'd never have any fun again, or any friends again. And all of those fears just kept me stuck in this loop of trying to moderate my drinking. And then, you know, it worked for a bit but I'd soon find it was back at square one.

And just down in Downing well drinking quite quickly a whole bottle of wine and then going to the little Tesco on the corner for a second one who's just really bad. So I was lucky actually I went to see well, the reason why I set on my business actually is because I went to work to look for help. And I look to my employer because we've got a really good employee assistance programme, and we've got really good wellbeing for programme and I've got private medical insurance. So I was like there must be something here, employee assistant programme. I had like a self help quiz I could fill in there was a bit of a kind of advice online there was signposting to AAA stuff that didn't really resonate with me. I didn't think that I needed to go to AAA.

But the idea for my business, which is really all about taking this anti stigmatisation message around alcohol into the workplace, is because of that experience. And what I've done since then is shared my story in the workplace at the place where I work, and it's, it's turned into a bit of a movement, like a sober, curious society with loads of members, and we have monthly meetings, and we have lots of kind of online content and things like that. And I want to take that, what I've created and and, and bring it to more employers or more industries.

So then I went to the kind of private medical insurance. I found an alcohol counsellor, who I wanted to work with who live locally. And they said that was excluded because it was counted as rehab. But I could go and see, general counsellor. So I went to see a general counsellor, who in the first session told me while she asked me how much I was drinking, and then she told me how much she drank, which was a lot more and told me not to worry. And that kept me stuck for a bit longer. That kept me stuck for a few more months, I like I skipped away thinking I'm fine.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us all. I really appreciate it because it's something that is still so taboo in the UK. And I think a lot of people don't talk about their experiences or aren't comfortable sharing them. So thank you. I think it's really valuable. I know that there will be someone listening who that will definitely impact. So thank you so much, Janet. And then I need to apologise for getting your company name wrong. I called it choosing sunrise instead of choose sunrise. Okay. Sorry, so many people get my company name wrong. It's even been called Blue Sky career coaching. I never correct anyone. So I must. Yeah. And then also, I just wanted to ask how your husband? Oh,

yes, thank you. So he was diagnosed with a brain tumour about four years ago now. And he's doing great. He's defying a lot of the odds, he's had two fairly gruelling operations, I won't go into the detail, it's not something you want to think about. If you have any lunch, he's had radiotherapy, and his tumour has been stable for about a year and a half now, which is being stable as the best you hope for with a brain tumour, a long period of stability is the is the utopia position, because there's no cure, it will never go away. And at some point, it will come back.

And unless he's very unlucky, it will be the thing that that kills him. He has a life expectancy of around five to 10 years from diagnosis four years ago. So it but obviously some people are massively outside of those numbers. But it's a strange way to live Fay it really is. It's, it's it's like a constant living loss. They call it like, I feel like I've been grieving constantly for four years. And I continue to grieve, even though he's here, and it's hard not to.

I'm so sorry, Janet, to hear how poorly your husband is still. I mean, I'm so pleased he's stable, but I can't even begin to imagine how tough that must be.

Yeah, it has been tough. But I think a lot of people, especially when you get into your mid 40s, a lot of people do have trauma, whether it's a husband or another loved one parents getting older people getting ill, this is the sort of thing that happens to a lot of people as they get into their 40s. And I do think that a lot of the clients and people in my groups that I've worked with, have found that that is a catalyst for their relationship with alcohol changing. I think it's quite a common thread, actually, is that alcohol consumption can feel absolutely fine. And okay, until something happens and then it can be the start of a very different relationship with alcohol when you have some kind of trauma. So yeah, it's been an interesting experience

is really interesting to say that it's not something I've really thought about before you know what the triggers are that can continue from being every day. It's a Okay drinker to actually, this is a bit too much and not very good for me drinker. And so you talked about some of the things that made you realise, actually, it had got a bit out of control and the fact that you were going out to buy a second bottle of wine every evening, what's the some of the other signs that people listening can look out for, whether that's behaviour in themselves, or behaviours that they're noticing in their colleagues at work?

So I think I always say, it's not about the amount that you're drinking, when you're looking at your own drinking, does know. I mean, obviously, this is government recommended amounts. But the reality is, there is no safe level of drinking, or drinking is harmful. It's really about whether you're happy with the amount that you're drinking. So if, if you're happy, and you feel that you're in control of your drinking, the amounts less important, if you're drinking more than you intended to or more than you want to be, that's a real warning sign to yourself.

The other one that I think is quite common, that's a bit of a warning sign is if you're waking up at about 3am. Feeling anxious, there's a good physiological reason why that's happening, which is that your brain is counteracting the depressant effect of the alcohol by releasing stimulants. And those stimulants are keeping you awake and making you feel like antsy and jittery. And that's where this whole kind of hang xiety comes from the sort of morning after anxiety.

Gosh, I had absolutely no idea about that you can see it's a subject that I haven't looked into in detail before. I hadn't ever thought about actually the fact that there can be these physical effects that you won't necessarily recognise where they're coming from, or why they're happening. Yeah,

anxiety is a, the link between anxiety and alcohol is is enormous. Everybody I know, who has stopped drinking reports, reduced anxiety. And I think it's really interesting that when you go and see medical professionals, and you talk about, you know, people talk about being depressed or anxious, they're not always asked about their drinking. And actually, probably people don't really want to hear it. But stopping drinking could be the thing that's really holding you back from lifting yourself out of a depression or reducing your own levels of anxiety without having to go on to medication.

And I'm not suggesting that's going to work for everyone, or that drink. Stopping drinking is a magic solution that will make all your problems go away. But my goodness me, I cannot tell you how much better I felt after I stopped. People asked me do you miss it? And I'm like, There's no way I'd go back to drinking. I? Why would I want to go back to feeling like that? No way.

You know what it's making me think I've covered stress and anxiety and resilience. Several times on the podcast before, it's a topic I talk about quite a lot, because I know that for my listeners, they're in such busy roles with huge demands on their time, a lot of the time, and they can feel like they're under a lot of pressure, which can of course lead to stress, burnout and anxiety. I've never once mentioned alcohol as part of this whole scenario, because I just haven't been aware of that, really.

And I can imagine now as I'm listening to you talk that it could end up being a bit of a vicious cycle. If you're feeling stressed or anxious, and you think, oh, I'll just have a couple of glasses to unwind, I can very quickly see how that could be sort of the beginning of a bit of a spiral

without a doubt. And it's it's so common. I mean, how many people get home from a busy stressful day at work and have a glass of wine with dinner to unwind. And you know what, there's nothing wrong with that, if that's if you're having a glass of wine, but then I just wonder how many people are actually carrying on and drinking the rest of the bottle. Because, you know, it's how they've learned to is the only coping mechanism that they've developed to cope with the stress. And when I work with clients, one of the things I always say to them is, if you're going to take alcohol out, you've got to put something else in.

So the trick I think, is to work out why you're drinking. So say it's to unwind after a very stressful day at work, and then work out what other strategies you could put in place to help you unwind after a busy day at work. So you know, whether it's sports, whether it's music, whether it's socialising, whether it's knitting, I don't know, whatever it is for you and put that in instead. Because just taking the alcohol out without putting something else in is going to be a lot more difficult.

That is something that I have talked about before. So in the other episodes where stress or anxiety or resilience have come up as topics that has been just discussion around what kinds of strategies may help you. So, for anyone listening, I will put some links in the show notes to those episodes. One was a very early episode with Adele Stickland. Then there was one quite recently actually that I released, which was two ideas to help you bounce back from a tough day at work. And then there was another episode with Tom McCleary, which I will link to as well, I'd really recommend for anyone who's interested in this topic, just hop back and have a listen to those after you finished listening to this episode.

Brilliant. I think I will give some of those a listen too.

You'll have to let me know what you think if you've listened to them, Janet, that would be great. So I guess to move along a tiny bit with this, then if you're thinking, Oh, I'm not happy with the amount that I'm drinking, or you've spotted a colleague at work, and you're just a bit worried about them and their levels of drinking? What's your advice? For a first step? I'm guessing your advice might actually be different for those two questions. So please feel free to choose to answer whichever one of them you would prefer to fast.

Well, I think with your own drinking is actually a lot easier. In some ways. If you feel that you're not happy with your own drinking, I would really recommend that you do some proper research and get yourself, get yourself into the sober community. There is I always call it like an underworld of sober people, because you don't see them. Everywhere you go, you see people drinking. But there's actually 1000s, millions of us who don't drink at all, who are just living our best lives and loving life without the booze.

And you can find communities on Facebook, and I'm sure other platforms, Instagram actually has a lot of soberheroes on, find yourself, some people who inspire you would be one of the first steps and open your mind to the possibility that not drinking at all, might actually be easier than trying to moderate and might actually be better than trying to moderate. I have a free membership option on my website on choose sunrise.co.uk, where we have a very small but supportive community of people who are generally in the early days of stopping drinking, that's completely free to join. And there's free resources on there. There's others out there that might be better suited to some different listeners.

So yeah, that's something that I'm really looking to launch next year and I'm looking for pilot suppliers to come on board with me. You know if it is something that you think could be Delivering for your organisation? Because I think it's, it's a bit of an elephant in the wellbeing room. I think times are changing. I really believe that in 20 years time, we'll look back and think, can you believe that employers used to give, like used to have a free bar is like a reward? Imagine if they gave away free cigarettes as a reward. You know, I just think there'll be a change of attitudes. I really do.

It's funny to think how things may be so different in the future. But I guess whatever we try and predict will end up being really different. Yeah, it's a bit like smoking, isn't it? I just remember everywhere being filled with smoke when I was young, it's incredible to think now that we've got so many smoke free zones everywhere. But anyway, anyway, I won't start reminiscing about being young and thinking it was awful having smoke all over the place.

Coming back to what you were saying about your alcohol wise programme. That sounds really valuable. And I hope that someone listening gets in touch to say, if they're interested in exploring piloting it with you, I don't want you to have to give away all your secrets, of course, for free. But perhaps if I could just probe you a little bit more on your recommendation that if you see someone at work, who you think may have a problem to have a sensitive and timely conversation with them, would you just be happy to share some initial tips on how you handle that situation? Because it is those difficult situations that we all find so tricky, and then end up putting off or just really, really worrying about, if you do have any advice that would be wonderful to hear some of it

Yeah, I can tell you a little bit about a conversation that I did actually have in the workplace on this topic. So somebody who worked in my team a long time ago, it had been noticed that they had been almost seemed drunk the morning after, and you know, you could smell alcohol on them. And the previous had been a really high performer and the performance had dropped off. And I was tasked with having a difficult conversation, which was fine. And I just started off by saying, How are you to which I got I'm fine. And I was you sort of have to do the How are you really, you know, the kind of dig deeper and sit back and listen and give them space and be really open and warm.

I told this individual that I was worried about them, I told them that as their line manager, it was my responsibility, it was it was actually part of my role to look after their well being and that, although, you know, I knew that it kind of said you don't have to share everything with me. But I, these are the signs that I've seen that everything isn't okay. And explain just softly some of the things that had been noted. And it was enough to get the person to kind of open up and actually tell me that they were getting divorced, which I didn't know, and how, how awful it had been. And just, you know, it kind of all came out ready.

And once that dialogue had started, we were able to really start to build a trusting relationship with us. Because I was able to reassure them about confidentiality, I was able to help get them some support and counselling. I was able to give them some paid time off work, and stay in touch with them during that period. I visited them in their home. And, you know, ultimately, it resulted in that person coming back to work three months later, back to their pretty much old self. And that's if I'd have just left that they probably would have ended up getting sacked. And then what would happen to them? You know, it's not it's not fair to let someone flounder like that.

And, I mean, I know that it won't always work out that way. And sometimes things you know, might not go quite as smoothly as that but by being open by being warm by being compassionate by asking open ended questions and sitting back and really actively listening and just caring, you know, just actually caring about people. It can make a huge difference to somebody just to be listened to. So yeah, that that's kind of my personal advice on how to handle that.

It's brilliant to hear that advice. I think it's going to be incredibly helpful for anyone listening and actually, it's quite consistent advice when it comes to handling these tricky conversations. because as you were talking about that example, and the fact that the person you spoke to, then opened up and told you that they were getting divorced, it reminded me of a previous episode, where we focused on bereavements in the workplace, I spoke to Michelle Smith, and she again just said how important it is to have these open, warm and timely conversations with people.

In fact, I can't remember if it was in the episode or in the chat I had with her before or the chat I had with her afterwards, where she talks about the fact that these conversations can be important, because you may suspect one thing, but it could be something completely different that's happening, or you then find out a whole load of more information. So for example, you know, with illnesses, side effects of that can be slurred speech, and so people can be thought of as Oh, my gosh, are they drinking? And actually, no, that's not the case, they have a medical condition, or it's a side effect of medication.

And if you don't have that conversation, everyone may be thinking one thing, when actually, it's a completely different situation to what everyone is secretly thinking, but also means that you can make sure you are putting the right support in place. And I suppose, where you've just talked about your colleagues saying they were getting divorced, it goes back to what you said at the very beginning of our chat together today, about their often being trigger points that are the reason behind increased drinking and Arsal. Yeah,

absolutely. And just on that point about the trigger points, I think it's really important as well to talk about the fact that nobody goes from being a normal drinker to a rock bottom alcoholic, without going through a huge grey area in the middle. And my very strong belief is that by talking to people who were find themselves in that grey area, and showing them that not only that it's possible to live without alcohol, but that it's, you know, that it might be better, showing them that it's okay, to be sober, showing them that it's okay to ask for help removing that sort of stigma that that kept me held back, I really, genuinely do believe that we can prevent so much alcohol harm.

All of the services, the traditional services are aimed at people who have gone quite a long way through that grey area and a pretty much, you know, getting towards the bottom. There's no need to hit rock bottom before you go and get help. Why don't we help people much, much earlier and prevent people from doing all of the harm to their liver into their mental health? There's, there's not many services in that area. And that's, I think, a real gap and a real opportunity to do something that that can help millions of millions of people.

Yes, I've never really thought about this term grey area drinking before until I read about it on your website. Okay. Yeah, it's a really important thing to be talking about. So thank you for bringing it up. And my worry, as you're talking is thinking about our work environments and how much we may be encouraging this without realising it. For example, with social events, yeah, corporate events, gifts, if I remember finding out that the head teacher at my son's primary school, had a whole garage full of whiskey bottles and wine bottles, where every year, people would buy him a thank you gift.

And he'd never told anyone that he doesn't drink. We just had all of this wine stacking up. So even thinking about what gifts we give to each other. At work, I guess it's all these little signs that until you start really thinking about it. You may not notice I've even started noticing since we spoke Janet, that my youngest son loves watching this superhero programme on TV, it's a series but in it I started noticing that when the adults in the programme are having a tough day. You see them pouring themselves a glass of wine. Yeah.

Yes.

Oh my goodness, it's everywhere. It's a it's a work. It's when we go out. It's what we're watching on the TV. It's It's so bizarre that we're all living in this world where it's just completely normalised as a great thing. Yeah,

it is everywhere. It really, really is. And when you stop drinking, you realise how conditioned you've been all your life to believe that alcohol is the answer. So, you know, I grew up in a house where my parents drank. In fact, my mom worked in the pub, and some of my earliest memories are of my dad taking me down to the pub where my mom worked and sitting me on the bar. I can really remember Sitting on the bar, and then probably quite drunk people putting me on their shoulders and running around with me and things like that. Quite happy memories, you know? Like, I just see associations go right back to childhood, every celebration, every wedding, every birthday, every christening every Christmas, you know, it's there.

Always there is a point of celebration. If we go to a funeral, there's very few sober people at a funeral. Everyone has a good drink, we drink to numb out we drink to forget, we drink at the end of a stressful day. It's like we've given alcohol, these magical cure or properties. We've dressed it up in beautiful bottles and labelling and giving it up lighting in bars and glamorised it. And at the end of the day, I think when you stop drinking, it's a bit like the emperor's new clothes, do you just go, oh, it's ethanol. It's horrible. And if you if you kind of replace it with cigarettes, and you imagine, at an age like beautiful packaging for cigarettes, that's put on a little pedestal behind a bar with special lighting on it. You would feel a little bit uncomfortable with that, I think.

And that's that's why I think things will change. Because I think more and more people are waking, waking up to the fact that alcohol is harmful. And I really do think it will be 20 years, it might be 50 years, 100 years. But I think there will come a point where people will look at alcohol and think I cannot believe that they used to be allowed to advertise it. You know, we might imagine if all alcohol was in white, white label bottles behind a screen like cigarettes, or would you see it in the same way?

Yeah, do you know I really can't imagine it at all. Yeah. But although it can feel them a bit overwhelming to think, well, it's just everywhere. As HR and people professionals, there is something that we can do about in looking about how we are talking about promoting alcohol and drinking within our workplace on a wider level, as well as getting brave and equipping ourselves to have those important conversations and put support in place for our colleagues. Yeah,

well, what I absolutely have a few minimum requirements that would be needed for someone to carry the alcohol wise employer accreditation. So some of the simple things that people can put in place, which won't cost them anything really will be always have alcohol free options at every event. And I mean, not warm up orange juice. So if you've got Prosecco, you need to have no Seco as well. If you've got beer, you need to have alcohol free beer, and there's so much choice available. You can't there's no excuse for it.

I went to a works do not organised by my employer, but a third party last week, was greeted at the door. Everyone was given a drink of their choice. I asked what alcohol free options they had. And they said Coke or lemonade? I was like, Have you got water? No. I was like, Okay, I'll have nothing then. Because I don't want a cup full of sugar and I don't drink wasn't very happy. But you know, that still happens in this day and age that still happens. So it's very annoying. I'd see it as an inclusion issue.

So when you're thinking about planning events, think about what activities there are to do for people who don't drink. So don't don't plan events that are just going to the pub and drinking at least have a quiz or like have something you know, go and play Crazy golf. And yes, fair enough. Everyone can go for a drink afterwards. But at least it's not. The whole event is just sitting and drinking. Because that's not healthy for anybody. And for people who don't drink, it's extremely dull. Yeah,

I need to say a big thank you to my niece. Actually, it was her wedding at the weekend. And I was so impressed at all these little thoughtful touches she had done so there were lots of children that including my children, on every table should put a box of games for any tables that have children on and for anyone who wasn't drinking. They have this array of options to choose from, you know whether it was for the kids who obviously should not be drinking, but also for the adults.

So when you walked in, you have the choice of taking a glass of champagne or a glass of sparkling elderflower in a champagne fleetly which I thought was really clever. Just those little things like having us in the same sort of class means if you're one of the people who isn't drinking, it doesn't feel such a big deal. Like you're really standing out and different to everyone and

that's a real difficulty when when you first stopped drinking you feel utterly paranoid that you're going to be cross questioned about your drinking and standing at an event with Orange juice when everyone else has got Champagne is so uncomfortable. It's just, it's a barrier to people making that decision to stop. It genuinely is because it's dead scary, it feels like you're admitting that you've got a problem that's really taboo and that everyone will know about it. And it's, you know, employers can do so much to support people in this space by making little changes like that with the events. Find out if people drink before you decide what you're giving them as a Christmas reward, don't have a free and unlimited free bar. It's, it's a recipe for disaster.

Anyone who works in HR already knows this. I mean, who works in HR wants a free bar, no one, but you know, you know, give people tickets, so they get a couple of free drinks. And then people don't get as drunk, make sure it's got good alcohol free options. And I think the the culture from the top of the company is really important as well. I've worked in places where it's almost, it's almost been the case that you have to go out with the boss on a Friday to be in with the chance of promotion.

And although that sounds really old school, you wouldn't believe the number of people who I speak to from, like the legal profession, teachers, who still feel that that that culture is exists in their employment, the sounds like something from the 80s, doesn't it, but it's still out there. It still happens. PR marketing, that's another one. I've got people in my group who work in offices where there's a fridge full of alcohol that everyone helps themselves to at lunchtime on a Friday. And basically, by the time they leave the office, they're all half cup. This is this is now this is in 2022. You know, it's still happening.

I'm sure there are endless stories and that everyone listening is thinking, Oh, yes, I've got a story I could share as well. Before I ask you to share the details of how people can get in touch with you and learn more about this brilliant work that you're doing. I can't wait to hear what your nonfiction book recommendation is for us. Oh, well,

I would definitely recommend a book called alcohol explained by William Porter, which is a brilliant, simple, easy to read book that explains physiologically what happens in your body when you drink and also the neuroscience. And don't be put off by the word neuroscience. I understood it. So it's okay, you can read it. It's not it's not too techie. But it just shows you what happens to your brain in your body when you drink. And it's fascinating. So yeah, William Porter, alcohol explained,

that does sound fascinating. And I will put a link to it in the show notes for anyone who would like to take a look at that and think about buying it. Which then brings us on to my very final question, Janet, which is for anyone listening? Who thinks, right, I would love to be involved in the pilot, or I would just love to know more about Janet's work, what is the best way of them finding out more about you more about to sunrise and getting in touch?

Absolutely. So you can find me really easily on LinkedIn, Janet Hadley, and my website is choose sunrise or one word.co.uk. And I've got contact form on there. I'd love to hear from you if you're interested in this topic. And if you have got some of those stories, you were just saying, I'm about to launch my own podcast, I hope you don't mind if I give that a little plug.

You're very welcome to I'm looking forward to hearing it. It's

called professional drinkers. And it's about alcohol culture in the workplace. I'd love to hear anything from horror stories and comedy stories through two amazing experiences that people have had where their employers have really helped them and everything in between. So yeah, I'd love to chat to you if you've got some stories to share.

That sounds brilliant. And what I can do Janet, is I have an email that I send out every week. If someone's listening and thinks, what do you mail, I'm not signed up to those, you can subscribe to those in the show notes as well. So I will send an email out about this episode that we've recorded together. And I can also put that in there to say that you would love to have stories sent through to you and I can put your contact details in there because I can see that it's just such an important topic to be talking about.

It would be wonderful to have people share their stories with you. And I know how fantastic everyone on my email list is. Whenever I send an email out and ask for support with something I always have such a lovely response. I seem to be very lucky to attract lovely listeners and lovely people who subscribe to the email. Not at all surprised

that you attract lovely people say there's a reason for that.

Oh, thank you. That's really kind of you to say, Well, I had better say goodbye. But thank you so much for your time today. It has just been an absolute Russia talking.

Thank you so much for having me.